Should the U.S. Have a Public Health Insurance Plan?

Yale’s Jacob Hacker and Sesame’s David Goldhill debate a government-run health insurance plan.

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Should the U.S. Have a Public Health Insurance Plan?

Jacob Hacker and David Goldhill debate the resolution: "The government should offer to all Americans a health insurance plan that would compete with private insurance plans."

Jacob Hacker is arguing for the affirmative. He's a professor of political science at Yale University and codirects the Ludwig Program in Public Sector Leadership at Yale Law School. He is a resident fellow at the Institution for Social and Policy Studies.

For the negative is David Goldhill, CEO and cofounder of Sesame, an online marketplace for discounted health services. He is also the author of Catastrophic Care: Why Everything We Think We Know About Health Care Is Wrong.

The debate is moderated by Soho Forum Director Gene Epstein.

Comments

[Uncle Jay]

"Should the U.S. Have a Public Health Insurance Plan?"

No.
Get your own damn health care plan.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Romney, the white you voted for in 2012, disagrees with you! Lololololol!!!

[TJJ2000]

Did you say the RINO disagrees?
Think McCain also qualified as a RINO after upholding Obumercare.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

McStain didn’t uphold Obamacare…he helped Ryan get $300 billion more in tax cuts. You are thinking of the individual mandate which proved to be innocuous but the CBO still scored it as costing $300 billion which Ryan used for tax cuts during reconciliation.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...Lololololol!!!..."

Do you hope to get out of middle school this year?

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

No.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

No

[Longtobefree]

Hell no!

[Vernon Depner]

Whether we should or not, a single-payer national medical care system is inevitable.

[JFree]

No it isn't. A single payer system only exists in Canada which is not at all a model for any other system. Even the UK is not really a single payer system since they allow 'supplemental' insurance which many employers offer to employees. That is not a model for any other country either.

'Single payer' is a political meme intended to place all options into an electoral framework. Not an actual workable option. An option that would work in the US is a 50+ minimum payer system - where each state creates a risk pool for its residents and where the feds provide reinsurance for those states. Medicaid and Medicare and state university/research hospitals and VA hospitals and muni hospitals (and likely non-profit hospitals) could easily transfer their funding and facilities to those states to seed the risk pool with people who are already covered under public/govt plans.

Those states could easily expand their risk pool to cover more people. They could negotiate FAR more intelligently than the feds ever can for purely political purposes. The costs of that risk pool would not increase much at all to those new people because the existing pool already covers the old, the dying, the disabled, the destitute, children of the poor, etc. Those not covered are overwhelmingly - healthy and of working age. Those are VERY low risks and should therefore have very low costs. That would not prohibit any private coverage. Many employers would offer private in large part because a well run tax paid plan also rations care. For most people that's ok. For those who want to bypass lines/rationing, that is precisely what private plans do - but 'bypassing lines/rationing' is what private plans do NOT do here in the US (see the murder of insurance plan CEOs with a slogan about the rationing that they currently do).

[JFree]

As an aside - our existing 'public health insurance plans' do not eliminate one iota of what a private system would offer. They do not compete with - or subvert competition of - a hypothetical private system. No private system will pay for the elderly (whose end state of medical care is still dead no matter how heroic they want someone else to cover), the destitute, the disabled. Exclude those people however and you have the young and healthy - who don't spend money on health care in any rational world.

[Vernon Depner]

It doesn't matter what the arguments against are. It's coming.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

You are still defending the UAW/New Deal Democrat designed health insurance system…the same one that ended up undermining American manufacturing in the 1980s!?! You are a useful idiot for the American health insurance industry.

[JFree]

Then you're not reading my comment. And you certainly don't understand history.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

If you support the pre-Obamacare status quo then you support a health care system designed by the UAW and New Deal Democrats. Basically you want your boss to determine which doctor looks at your wife’s and daughter’s vagina! Sicko!!

[JFree]

Read the fucking comment you stupid partisan hack.

[charliehall]

Had the US enacted John Dingell Sr.'s National Health Insurance plan in 1933, US manufacturing would not have been undermined, and the US economy would not be draggee down by the high healthcare costs. Oh and we would he healthier and live longer.

[damikesc]

Because, going by the VA, nobody provides better service and outcomes than the government.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

If I want to lick my meds up locally, they make me go down in person to request the refill. Then I have to wait, because they don’t hold them. So I might be stuck there for hours. And I don’t really want my meds delivered in the idle of summer where it might be well over a hundred degrees in the back of the van.

[Idaho-Bob]

Found the retard who thinks social security is the greatest thing ever.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

We lost the jobs in the 1980s coming out of the Volcker recession…so it worked until it didn’t.

[InsaneTrollLogic (Muting Sarc like he mutes us)]

Did you happen to forget what occurred between 1968 and 1980?

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

A bunch of the companies that make up the Fortune 500 were created??? From a macro level the 1970s looked pretty good up until Volcker.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

charliehall.
Is.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Not one of his claims is other than imbecilic lefty bullshit.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

'Single payer' is a political meme intended to place all options into an electoral framework.

Oh come now. Every possible option can be assigned a label of either "capitalist" or "socialist", and Real Muricans reject the socialist label and pick the capitalist label. Especially the ones who cash their Social Security checks every month.

[InsaneTrollLogic (Muting Sarc like he mutes us)]

Your strawmen suck hard.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Although probably not as hard as the sex doll he got that was built to resemble a six year old boy.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Of course you support single payer. Why don’t you just admit you’re a globalist Neo Marxist Sorosite. I don’t really understand why you even bother with this charade anymore. No one is buying it, you get nothing out of it, and you look like an asshole for trying.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Just because a country has universal health care it doesn't make them globalist neo marxist sorosite.

Canada is none of these things. The UK with it's censorship an recent authoritarianism is moving that direction. But at least they didn't open their borders to millions for 4 years.

There should be no profit put on top of health care. This is one industry that should belong to the people and administered for and through the people and run at cost.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Vermont and Massachusetts could have a Medicare for All (M4A) program within 5 years. The federal government isn’t necessary to implement M4A because all of the revenue necessary to fund a M4A program is currently being spent on health care in states like Vermont and Massachusetts AND every state currently runs a health care program!! You simply start in year 1 by transferring state employees into the state run health care program and every year add another group like in year 2 everyone that works for a university is transferred into Green Mountain Care.

[Idaho-Bob]

Yeah, the socialized VA works so well for veterans.

My dad used to say "the VA is for the vets who can't afford insurance and need a place to die."

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Trump fixed it. Now it works great. Remember Trump was already president and he released the Epstein Files and built the Wall and fixed the VA and ended wars for good.

[InsaneTrollLogic (Muting Sarc like he mutes us)]

I think you may need a doctor so he can extract your head from your ass.

[JFree]

Medicare is the worst public medical system in the world. The US pays as much to cover retirees as every other country in the world pays to cover its entire population. It is no coincidence that Medicare was structured for the primary purpose of satisfying the demands of medical schools to provide pay for a slew of specialists whose main patient demand comes from the over-65's. Rather than the GP's who are needed by all age groups. Its a corrupt crony system like everything else we accept from federal govt.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

So then, why the hell are you a democrat?

[Social Justice is neither]

Because that's working so well with retirement funding, right? What are the total funded and unfunded liabilities now?

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Not if we get rid of it’s Marxist advocates.

[Chumby]

Fuck no

And eliminate Medicare/Medicaid.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

And increase tariffs. And where are you on invading foreign countries today?? Because you supported invading Iraq in 2003.

[InsaneTrollLogic (Muting Sarc like he mutes us)]

Cite?

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

Take it away Robin

https://youtu.be/haYV_KIX4BQ?si=HYsjYMhLhLbpIDbZ

[Gaear Grimsrud]

My health care plan is simple and cheap. Balancing my intake of cigarettes and beer to maintain optimal BMI. Also sex, drugs and rock and roll. Seven decades and I'm still here bitches!

[Longtobefree]

You died five years ago, but they forgot to tell you - - - - - - - -

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Yeah Covid took me out. I only haunt the material world because there's a very small chance Fauci will end up head first in a wood chipper and I'd like to be around for it.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Feet first is always better. More time to enjoy his screams.

[Moonrocks]

Of course. Now that the government has made health insurance unaffordable and undesirable while simultaneously mandating its purchase, the only solution is to further involve the government. I guarantee that this will finally solve all the problems thus far created by the government, but even if it doesn't we could always outright ban any private competitors to this new government option.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Because no other country has figured this out, right??

[Idaho-Bob]

No other country has figured out how to provide quality (key word) health care to every citizen. They do provide quality euthanasia for the depressed, elderly, and chronic.

[Vernon Depner]

A national health service can't work without strong, independent death panels. There is no natural limit on medical care spending. Someone has to say no when treatments are unnecessary or not worth it.

[JFree]

That doesn't mean govt needs to run the death panels. Govt can - and should - run a barebones type of medical system. Similar to Medicaid or a Kaiser-type HMO. If you don't like it or want to avoid lines, that's what private system is for. It is supplemental - until/unless its the private system that risks its CEO lives by saying no to med procedures.

[Vernon Depner]

Nope. Private death panels would get the insurance companies sued into the Stone Age. The death panels need sovereign immunity.

[JFree]

Nonsense. Insurance companies deny claims all the time. If those result in death, they get sued - assuming the victim has the power to go up against an insurance company. Lawyers take the case on contingency - but that means they have to fight the insurance company contract, attempts to switch the lawsuit to the doctors/medical malpractice, etc.

You people have the weirdest fucking notion of reality. The government already covers 90%+ of people who die each year undergoing something medical. Medicare and Medicaid do not get buried in 'death panels'. This is just the typical horseshit from partisan hacks

[TrickyVic (old school)]

""Nonsense. Insurance companies deny claims all the time.""

Yeah, and a CEO was murdered for it and people cheered.

[DesigNate]

Why is this even taken seriously enough to debate in a “libertarian” magazine? Especially when the article could be summed up with “Fuck no.”?

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

You pay for my health care. Every good and service purchased in America includes the costs of someone else’s health care!! America has what amounts to a VAT to pay for health care for Americans ages 18-65…and then payroll taxes and income taxes pay for babies and children and elderly. So thanks!!

[charliehall]

Both Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman supported mandatory universal health insurance. They just wanted it run by the private sector not the government.

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

Insurance. Not Healthcare. What do they teach at fake harvard?

And it was for catastrophic outcomes, not general Healthcare checkups. The plans aca outlawed.

[DesigNate]

This might surprise you, but Hayek and Friedman weren’t libertarian Jesus.

[Eeyore]

What if we just jump directly to the endgame and only provide abortion and M.A.I.D. services?

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

No, I will never pay for the Planned Parenthood clinic in the black neighborhood with the highest murder rate in the country!! PP is genocide!! More black babies!!!

[Eeyore]

If you can convince the mother that life is over you can provide a two for the price of one procedure.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

I want the premium plan where Sydney Sweeney and her cloned twin sister are my maids.

[Eeyore]

That does sound like the better health plan.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

I’m willing to shell out the big bucks for that service.

[TJJ2000]

Insurance within its own definition *is* a "public health" cost plan.

How STUPID does one have to be to think giving an insurance company the power to Gov-Gun down the people (Gov Insurance) is going to be good? Who will ensure Justice? You just as well be lobbying to make Big-Insurance the government. It's the exact same thing.

Get it through your greedy selfish criminal heads leftards.
'Guns' don't make sh*t.
If you can't afford it without 'armed-theft' crime you can't afford it period.
THEFT is a Zero-Sum resources game.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

But adding trillions to the debt isn’t “theft”??

[TJJ2000]

It is. And where do you think a massive amount of that debt came from if it isn't from the healthcare industry packing 'Guns'? Double-down on 'Guns' in healthcare is doubling-down on that same stupid?

The only thing that made healthcare unaffordable in the first place was throwing Gov-Guns at it. As is the running story for everything Gov ?makes affordable?.

[charliehall]

"How STUPID does one have to be to think giving an insurance company the power to Gov-Gun down the people "

Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman were stupid?

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

Parody intentionally represents what both claimed. News at 11.

[Idaho-Bob]

No, but you are for taking them out of context.

[Incunabulum]

We already do. It's called Medicaid.

Unless the public plan is charging at market rates then its just Medicaid.

What we need to do is decouple health insurance from employment by simply just making all medical and medical insurance payments pre-tax for everyone, not just whatever plan your employer might see fit to offer.

[JesseAz (Prime Meanster of Sarcasia)]

Medicaid actually pays at 92% costs, cost shifting a lot of costs to private plans.

[Social Justice is neither]

Which costs? Direct, indirect, fully allocated? How much of total hospital costs are in that deceptive metric?

[Vernon Depner]

There is no such thing as "market rates". Rates are set by the amount of the subsidies.

[TJJ2000]

^THIS +1000000. Contrast and Compare with the dental healthcare that has quasi "market rates". How dumb does a person have to be not to see government is WHY healthcare is unaffordable.

[Vernon Depner]

I do price shop dentists. It's well worth it.

[See Double You]

Yes.

https://www.cato.org/blog/dont-hate-player-hate-income-tax-wrecking-health-care

[Neutral not Neutered]

Insurance companies will never let this happen. The only way for the US to adopt a universal plan like Canada's is for the Gov to purchase the existing insurance companies and absorb them or grow exponentially and try to compete against them.

The cost of "insurance" will drop because there will be no profit in the premiums if a Universal system is adopted.

However there will also be reduced services across the board.

For example, the US has 10 times the amount of MRI machines than Canada per 100K population.

But Canada is allowing Private clinics to open for those who don't want to wait and are willing to pay for services.

Health insurance companies cover the secondary items, prescriptions, ambulances, chiropractic or physical therapy, messages, etc.

[Incunabulum]

The cost of insurance is not dropping in Canada or the UK.

So . . . there goes your thesis out the window.

[Neutral not Neutered]

The cost of insurance? You have it wrong regarding Canada. The cost of medical care has increased, so has the population and technology. There is no "insurance" unless you purchase secondary Blue Cross or other which covers costs outside of the medical networks, prescriptions, ambulances, chiropractic etc.

In the US the path i see to Universal is for the gov to purchase the Insurance companies and then remove the profit from their operations.

[TJJ2000]

LMAO... The cost of "insurance" will drop...

And exactly what market has government taken over that has been the result? How many times do you have to proven STUPID before you LEARN anything?

It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope. It'll work this time... Nope.

FFS. Stop believing 'Guns' are going to make you something.
THEFT just doesn't. It just makes everyone else have to pay more.

[Neutral not Neutered]

First off, when have you ever proven anyone stupid or been capable of teaching?

[TJJ2000]

I don't need to ?teach?/?prove? because I'm not trying to indoctrinate sheeple that 'Gun' theft will save us all.

The REALITY of it is what proves them stupid. If Gov-Guns in healthcare made it affordable then it would BE AFFORDABLE today and there wouldn't be any talk of MORE GOV-GUNS NEEDED. "Oh gosh look a nail flattened my tire; maybe an axe through-it will fix it!" /s ... See; just flat out STUPID.

[Neutral not Neutered]

You non sequitur is not helpful. Facts are facts. Sorry you don't see them through your bias.

[TJJ2000]

Nothing says BS propaganda like trying to teach/?prove? faulty-facts that defy reality.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Not sure why you have such opposition against someone with actual first hand knowledge of both sides.

Had I still been living in the US and had the run of medical occur in the last year there, I would have nothing left. With the insurance I had through my job and all the rules of the plan I would have to sell my house to pay the deductibles and copays and meds. Then I would most likely have hit max lifetime allowance and what then?

Insurance should be 100% catastrophic coverage. Is it? Did you know the insurance companies are insured for catastrophic claims or events?

Insurance is not a proper capitalist free market corporation. It is communist economics and it discriminates and cheats to save itself. No different than the Bush Jr Karl Rove, sometimes the free market has to go outside itself to save itself scam and subsequent greatest theft of the people in history.

Why is it you can't agree that people's health should not be a profitable industry? Why is it you can't agree the level of health care shouldn't be determined by the health insurance plan of the company you work for and they chose for you?

People's health that care workers take an oath of putting patients before anything else in their jobs are not the reason why health care costs so much or is difficult to obtain for some.

It's the profit by Insurance companies and Hospital associations that when removed reduces the cost of health care. And nothing else.

What if as an example the Government purchased 3 Health Insurance giants in the US. Within the ownership of these corporations the people are the shareholders. To which all profits in the form of dividends and taxes that the corporation would pay are revenue for the government. How could you say it doesn't make money? It will make more money and will be owned by the people who are the shareholders. Nothing else changes but the name of the owners an the removal of board of investors.

[TJJ2000]

And what part of all that planning requires 'Guns' (Gov) against the people?
You want to start a Co-op Hospital. You want to start a Co-op Insurance company.

GUESS WHAT? YOU CAN! ANYONE CAN!

Yet you just keep insisting 'Guns' (Gov) has to be involved. WHY?

...because you've purchased way too much [Na]tional So[zi]alist indoctrination and think 'Guns' against those 'icky' people will benefit you. Deny it all you want but until you explain why Government has to be there you've got no excuse but the obvious one.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"The cost of "insurance" will drop because there will be no profit in the premiums if a Universal system is adopted."

Product of government schools I see.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Sorry you seem to have a real issue with thinking beyond the walls of your bubble.

What is insurance? What is it's purpose? Is insurance health care?

If the government controls health care, does insurance exist?

Currently the US system involves profiting from the health, or lack of, of the American people.

If you want to reduce the cost of health care in the US first off you have to remove the profit insurance companies take from the system and the control they have over the system.

Yes now the hospitals. To reduce their cost portion of the system removing the private ownership and the profit is the first way to bring down the costs of the hospital in the medical system.

[TJJ2000]

And exactly how many people to-count would you like to remove all the profit from their labors by Gov-Gun forces????

Once the party of slavery. STILL the party of slavery.
Always cooking up new ideas on how to TAKE without EARNING.

If you want to take the profit out of insurance companies it is as simple as PAY CASH for healthcare. If you want to take the profit out of healthcare service YOU ARE LITERALLY LOBBYING TO RE-ENACT SLAVERY.

Get it through your criminally indoctrinated heads leftards.....
'Guns' (Gov-Guns) doesn't MAKE sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neutral not Neutered]

People? I am talking about profit, not someone's income for doing their job. Big difference.

I guess you think anyone who earns a paycheck is a slave?

You can't even realize the difference between Health Insurance and Health care. Once you figure it out then we might be able to have a proper debate.

[TJJ2000]

You think anyone who earns a paycheck should be a slave.
You literally just said that (take away all the profit) paraphrased.

Course you can always resort to Self-Projection. As leftards always do.

[Neutral not Neutered]

No I never said that at all. I am sorry you believe someone who goes to work and earns a paycheck is a slave. And you are calling me a leftist?

We all pay taxes. And then there is mandatory expenses of which health insurance and for profit hospitals, the middle man between a person and the health care industry, can be removed and save costs.

I never said take away all the profit. You seem to think what I said is the same as Mamdami or actual marxists. Nope that is not me nor what I said.

I am all for small government and keeping as much of my money to decide where it's spent.

[TJJ2000]

LOL..
While you're pushing to having Government take-over the healthcare industry?
"the middle man between a person and the health care industry"
- while you want Government to be the middle man?

Is contradiction your middle name?

[Neutral not Neutered]

The bill for service is sent from the doctor or clinic or hospital to the gov for payment versus going to the insurance company. The difference is the gov runs it's admin and program without additional cost added to cover profit.

You pay medicare/medicaid on your checks.

I suppose your insolent answer will also include if you don't like the quality, level or the cost of the insurance offered by the company you work for,, get another job? Find a company that has better benefits?

Yeah it is sure helpful for Americans that the company they work for decides the health care they can get through the type of health insurance the company provides you.

Tell me about the gov guns currently controlling the massive premium increases the insurance companies are putting on the people while they receive reduced services...

[TJJ2000]

"Tell me about the gov guns currently controlling the massive premium increases." ... Yes; Indeed. So what in the world would cause you to be lobbying for MORE Gov-Guns?

Seems to me you should be lobbying to get the Gov-Guns OUT-OF people's healthcare.

Now that the Gov Healthcare lobby has made its bed it doesn't want to sleep in it so it'll use more Gov to steal someone else's bed, and another, and another, and another until there are no more beds left? See Venezuela for recent example of that. THEFT does not create service.

[Social Justice is neither]

You are an imbecile. With no profit and no competition prices will rise, not fall you ignorant Marxist. The reduced services are at least true.

This destruction of healthcare will continue until "kill yourself" looks like fiscal responsibility and a positive alternative to state controlled healthcare.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Really? Sorry you are completely wrong.

Why must a hospital profit? Why must a clinic providing health care services have to profit? Can't it be run with it's costs being covered, the employees paid well and not have to make any extra on top of this?

We are talking about people's health care, not used cars or hand soap.

You simply have no first hand knowledge and believe the fear mongering that if the health care industry did not have insurance companies who are controlling your level of health care that somehow the country will collapse into some Marxist Authoritarian state.

But you are wrong. Canada is proof. paranoia self destroya.

[TJJ2000]

Food is not used cars or hand soap yet you don't pay $250,000 for a food transplant BECAUSE your beloved STEAL from them 'Guns' (Gov-Guns) aren't in that equation.

YOU and your socialist criminal minds is WHY nobody can afford it anymore. You can't keep stealing the profit off your local gas-station and expect them to not raise their prices to cover your 'armed-theft' robbery. Eventually they will go out of business then you won't have a gas-station at-all.

'Guns' DOES NOT make sh*t for you criminally minded con-artists.
Your kind is literally laying track for ultimate disparity (see Venezuela).
As well as destroying everything that made the USA great to begin with.

If you want to tout Canada as being so great then WTF are you even doing in the USA? Surely it has to be easier to MOVE your *ss than to change an entire nation into Canada.

[Neutral not Neutered]

I am not trying to do that. I struggled with trying to figure out a way to work it out. Sadly I don't think it is possible today.

But if you think for one second the biggest wigs of the industry getting together for a week in the Caribbean and coming back and deciding every American who has health insurance through their companies will get the National Average increase applied to their premiums of 11 to 16% a year for no reason other than they want to increase their profit margins for the investors and not for the people forced to be invested in the companies for their own health, then you are promoting fascism instead of putting the American people first.

I literally signed agreements for health insurance for the employees of the company I was working for and could not believe the corruption of the health insurance industry as a whole. It's a scam.

What the fuck does health insurance have to do with gas stations?

You must be the alter ego of sarc, playing the drunk from a different angle.

Sorry for your loss.

[TJJ2000]

It's willful fascism because you *willingly* entered into the insurance fascism pool.
Government isn't *willful*.

You're literally pushing for everyone being FORCED into exactly what you're trying to despise.

But speaking of that fascism pool. It exist precisely because of all the Gov-Gun involvement of the past. Yet here you are pushing for more. Stupid.

[Neutral not Neutered]

No, you are wrong. Sorry you lack the capacity to see why.

If you are not buying health insurance then you will be screwed for certain. But as you said, who cares because you can go bankrupt is not a responsible or sensible answer...

[TJJ2000]

You correctly paraphrased just above, "Being responsible for yourself" ... "is not a responsible or sensible answer."

AND ^^^^^THAT^^^^^^ is the root problem.

You seem to think Government is some kind of God that can waive it's magic wand and make your life better by dismissing the very laws of nature. Well let me be the first to inform you. It isn't.

Your crime against others religion/Gov-Gods isn't going to pan-out no matter how much 'faith' you have in their magical wand of 'armed-theft' against your neighbors because that neighbor is YOU.

[TJJ2000]

Instead of trying to convince you; you are nothing but a criminal I should've hit your BS right on the head.

What's stopping you from starting your profit-free hospital and profit-free insurance company? You want it? You think it's GREAT! GO DO IT!!!! One of the great things about being in America.

So simple to put all your 'great' ideas into action. What's stopping you? Nothing. GO DO IT!

[Neutral not Neutered]

They already exist and health insurance keeps going up.

[TJJ2000]

So.... What you're really doing is making BS excuses by proposing a 'solution' that already exits in order to use Gov-Guns to STEAL from your neighbors? Well that's been apparent since the very beginning of this discussion.

[TJJ2000]

Exactly the point the German Nazi's got to.

But it wasn't "kill yourself" it was [WE] Identify-as [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] will "kill you" for our-Nazi preservation. The conquer and consume mentality.

It really is amazing how fast and how often greed and selfish people can turn their halls of justice into a [WE] mob criminal gang once they are allowed to entertain the ?free? sh*t ?socialist? criminal theory. Over and over and over again it goes.

When all they needed to do was have a honorable mind/theory that GETTING requires EARNING/CREATING. Demand-side only economics is a zero-end resources game.

[Neutral not Neutered]

LOL such a fool. of course you stoop to nonsensical Nazi attacks and hyperbole.

Sad...

[TJJ2000]

Self-Projection 101.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

You bet! Look how well our government retirement plan works!

[MollyGodiva]

Every other peer country has some form of universal healthcare. They spend less and have better outcomes.

[InsaneTrollLogic (Muting Sarc like he mutes us)]

Again, Molly shows her ignorance. No, Molly, not every other country has a form of universal healthcare, and those that do tend to spend more and have worse outcomes. Ask a Canadian or a Brit how long it takes to get a procedure done.

[MollyGodiva]

I know Canadians. They think the US system is stupid and mock us. They might wait, but they get health care, which is more than what everyone in the US gets.

[TJJ2000]

Great.. They can STAY in Canada then... And you can go there as well.

[Chumby]

What did ML to deserve that?

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

I know US doctors near the northern border, and they are inundated with Cdn patients who really would like to get treatment instead of being put on a waiting list.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Yes because they want Dr pimple popper or a new knee or other non life threatening mostly cosmetic medical issues to be dealt with an don't want to wait. An they have the money.

Currently the argument in Canada is whether or not to allow private clinics to open up.

Allowing private clinics will strengthen the Canadian health care system. There must be the base universal care available for all regardless of private clinics.

A hydrid of public and private can exist and be very effective but health insurance for health care needs to go away to reduce costs.

[TJJ2000]

Life threatening Gov-Gun service has been in legislation since the early 1900s. A hydrid of public and private use to be where the US was post WWII.

The ONLY thing that made health insurance mandatory was Obumercare. That same thing you're trying to GROW by turning government into the BIGGEST Insurance company monopoly the US has ever seen. You obviously can see the problem so WTF are you doing pushing to make those PROBLEMS BIGGER for?

There was a time before all this Gov-Gun'em down self-serving BS when healthcare would come to your door for the price of a pizza. In fact the Non-Government addled dental-healthcare still does.

You're spouting contradictions and confusion and 'poor' me con-artistry just so you can get Gov-Guns to STEAL from your 'icky' neighbors to pay for your own lazy*ss selfish entitlement to others labors.

Like I said; Life threatening Gov-Gun service has been in legislation since the early 1900s. That doesn't mean you get to NOT EVERN-TRY To PAY for others service/labor while you keep your assets. There is a 'bankruptcy' process stated even in the US Constitution if you can't pay.

What is so funny about leftard stupidity is their ideas are literally crony-socialism, making sure the rich stay rich while sucking-dry everyone else, complains about being poor while they lobby for more theft against themselves.

BECAUSE at the real heart of every leftard is the criminal conquer those 'icky' people and consume their property/labor/$ for their own benefit/security. They've completely dismissed (cognitive dissonance) any reality about EARNING is part of GETTING.

[TJJ2000]

"Throw away Liberty! Throw away Justice! Lets build [WE] Identify-as *special* people gangs who get to use Gov-Gun'em down CRIME that PAYS!", inside every leftards head.

[Neutral not Neutered]

There was a time when you would pay the doctor for the service, the same as the next person an then be reimbursed.

Then insurance companies realized they could start selling convenience for a price and now the price keeps climbing for less services by the insurance industry because profit is the driving goal of a company. So profiting for an insurance company means reducing the services they provide and charge more for them.

Do you see the difference in price for a jug of milk in the super market versus 7-11?

All because they got between you and your doctor. Get it? There is no competition.

[TJJ2000]

There is no competition ... which you want to eliminate even further with 'Guns' (Gov) because you're ?too lazy? to start making a butt-load of $ (as you claim) from your new health insurance start-up Co-op or what?

It's the typical leftard narrative. HATE the people that supply what you need so you can justify using 'Guns' (Gov-Guns) and STEAL it. Otherwise you might have to face the fact that your HATE is entirely unfounded once you try DOING it for yourself.

Criminal Con-Artistry at its finest.

[Neutral not Neutered]

There is no competition, in health care. The free market does not govern insurance, insurance is above it because insurance has corruptly become too big to fail and thus has corrupted health care.

With all your straw man and non sequitur bs, you are for the gov guns guaranteeing certain corporations perpetual business and profit?

[TJJ2000]

"you are for the gov guns guaranteeing"....
That's rich... MORE Self-Projection 101.

If you want to compete... GO compete... There is nothing stopping you but your too-busy blaming/projecting your problems onto everyone else for not handing over their labor/earnings to you.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Is that the doctor that treated your anal warts??

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Yeah, ‘they wait’. And then a lot of them die, becaise they had to wait.

You’re a stupid piece of shit Tony.

[Neutral not Neutered]

No sorry this is wrong. This is completely false. People are not dying because they have to wait. Fake news.

People wait for non life threatening health needs. Waiting for a new hip is not life threatening.

[TJJ2000]

Great. You can continue to wait until you EARN what you expect from others.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

People re dying because they have to wait for heart procedures and cancer treatment. This is a proven fact.

This is also why the UK has the lowest cancer survival rate in the civilized world. BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION.

[Neutral not Neutered]

no it is a lie. Prove it. Cite the facts. One person out of 35 million does not prove your lie.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Cite these atrocious circumstances that you speak of. You can't because they do not exist.

It's sad how you will not seek the truth from the horses mouth, you simply fall to fear of marxism.

[TJJ2000]

What the going rate on poverty killing people?
Have you completely dismissed the fact that Zero-Profit labor = poverty?

[Neutral not Neutered]

If you can't get your head out of the straw mans ass on the mountain of non sequitur then there is no way to converse with you.

[TJJ2000]

When all else fails ... there's always Self-Projection! /s

[Neutral not Neutered]

LOL you lost, admit it, you have a set narrative and talking points and can't think outside them. Have you ever had an original thought? You are the same as sarc.

[TJJ2000]

...because me and my [WE] Identify-as special people RULE!! /s
Yeah; you Leftards are all the same 'conquer and consume' barbaric animal.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Sorry but unless you see first hand as I have an do, listening to reporters and reading their articles does not paint the true picture.

If you are in a life threatening circumstance Canadian health care is top notch, there is no waiting.

If you have a sniffle or a headache and are going to emergency, well then yes you are waiting.

If you have a non threatening issue like your knee is worn out from too much sports, over eating, fell down the stairs or whatever then yes you might be a couple years to have it replaced unless you have the money and are willing to pay for portions of the procedures or all of it then you can have your new knee very quickly.

This is not dependant on your job or the company you work for level of plan they provide to you.

The speed of non life threatening care in the US is certainly far better than in Canada. But the level of care,the actual care itself is not. Canada is on par with the levels of technology and the development of technology.

[TJJ2000]

Speaking of "not paint the true picture" ... You know how many people I saw die on the lawn outside the USA'S ER?

Yeah; UR just chuck full of BS you self-project to con-artist your way into other people's pockets.

[Neutral not Neutered]

You throw all these doom and gloom delusions with no evidence to back them crying foul and spewing fear and paranoia.

Sorry it's beneath you to remain calm and think sensibly.

[TJJ2000]

Right. That's not me. That is you selling the BS that not having Universal Healthcare is why the US needs to stop letting people die contrary to Canada.

Self-Projecting 101. Trying to sell your contradictions to someone who won't buy them must be a real struggle for you. How about you just stop contradicting yourself and say in the land of Liberty and Justice for all there is no 'Guns' FORCING you to supply healthcare for your neighbors because that's precisely the definition of IN-Justice and Criminal Acts against your fellow man.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"They spend less and have better outcomes."

MG.
Is.
Full.
Of.
Shit.

[TJJ2000]

So what are you still doing in the USA??? Get the F'Out!
Go enjoy your Venezuelan pipe-dream.

It's people like you destroying the American Dream.

[DesigNate]

Wow, three wrong assertions in one post. Well done, doc.

[Michael Ejercito]

The illegal aliens clearly did not get the memo.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Nope. You’re a fucking idiot Tony. The Zulu has the worst cancer outcomes of any civilized country. Almost as bad with heart disease. You should quit listening to democrats. If you did, you might learn something for a change.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Fucking auto correct….. not ‘zulu’, UK. The UK has terrible outcome for heart disease and cancer.

[AT]

Ten facts you MUST accept before you can ever even have this discussion. If you don't agree with them, you are discussing in ignorance (or worse, bad faith).

1) Health care is not a right.

2) Health care can never be a right.

3) Health care and Health insurance are two very, very different things.

4) Insurance is an industry that isn't about whatever word prefixes it. It's the for-profit business of risk management, plain and simple.

5) The role of insurance is not for the routine and regular. It is for the unexpected and catastrophic. That is what the company is betting against, and what you are paying into for security if it occurs.

6) Any insurance model that requires coverage of "pre-existing conditions" is either A) 100% doomed to failure; B) guaranteed to bring down the entire industry. Or both.

7) Some people are uninsurable. Meaning, in terms of risk management, they are guaranteed losses and forcing an insurer's coverage of them is nothing more than a socialist redistribution of those losses onto the premiums of the insurable.

8) Your health is, ultimately, nobody's responsibility but your own. This is especially true for self-induced maladies - everything from obesity to gender transition to addiction to extreme sports. And their derivative effects. Insurance should never cover these things. (It's like expecting collision coverage for a derby car.)

9) Government involvement in health care necessarily drives up the cost of health care, along with wasting its resources and increasing the likelihood of patient abuses. Everything from EMTALA to Medicaid. They do far more harm than good.

10) A lack of transparency with regard to up front medical costs - both to insurer and consumer - is a recipe for fraud and corruption.

If you agree to all ten of those things, then you're a serious participant in the health care debate. If you disagree with anyone, then you're a clown. Probably one with a collectivist axe in your hands and a sadistic smile on your face.

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Well said

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Most of what we refer to as health insurance isn’t actually insurance…Google “self-insured”. So health insurance companies are actually managing health care expenses for a company. Congratulations, you are now slightly less of an idiot! 😉

[AT]

I was referring to actual insurance. The business of risk management. If you do not understand this business model, you have no ability at all to meaningfully participate in the health care debate.

Go crawl back down the rabbit hole you tried to dig.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Health care insurance companies are in the managing health care expenses for companies…that’s not insurance. So for a company like Microsoft health care expenses would be a line item on a budget…just like a VAT!! So if you support the pre-Obamacare he’s care system then you support a VAT!!! Lolololololololol!!!

[AT]

See #3.

You are not equipped to be part of this conversation, Sam. Please leave.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

You are clueless—you don’t even know how a company like Microsoft or a state like Texas treats health care expenses. No “insurance” is involved!! They pay all of the health care expenses which is called “self-funded”!!

[AT]

I said please leave.

You are not here to meaningfully contribute. Please. Leave.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Yes so it's obvious health insurance is the reason health care costs so much more in the US than in countries with Universal health care.

And government involvement in health care does not necessarily drive up the costs because first off, there's no profit involved, only cost.

The cost to build and run the hospital, but not the profit from the hospitals margins on it's daily functions as in the US.

The cost to administer the system. But not the margin added above the admin costs for the company to profit.

You are aware that health care insurance really is a scam? The biggest problem is insurance companies get discounts for bringing a collective of people. It is inherently communist economics.

You personally fall ill, car accident or whatever an are in the hospital. They treat you, you leave. You get a massive bill. One that shows they gave you vitamins they never did. A bill that shows a plethora of procedures that make up the total that you can't argue against.

As a person with no health insurance your bill will be over 30% higher in most cases than what the insurance company will pay the hospital because they have agreements which provides discounts that a regular person does not receive.

Now try to prove the profit of the hospital is not forcing health care costs to be higher than if the Hospital was government owned which does not apply profit on top of the costs of operation.

Hospitals are one portion. This continues through the medical industry making US health care, because of profit through insurance, more expensive.

[TJJ2000]

LMFAO... "there's no profit involved"...
Right... /s That's why D.C. has 5-Times the per-capita income than any other state in the union ... "there's no profit involved".

You're a joke of a criminalistic con-artist.

[Neutral not Neutered]

Straw man in the field shouting at the crows that blind his eyes. Smarten up already.

[AT]

You are aware that health care insurance really is a scam?

It's actually more of a gamble.

See, they're managing the risk. That's why it's called "risk management."

Also, odd how people never say that about auto, home, rental, life, pet, boat, whatever else insurance. No, those are all legit - nobody has a problem with them. It's just the health insurance that's ever a scam.

Because you deny #1 and #2.

Tell me I'm wrong.

They treat you, you leave. You get a massive bill. One that shows they gave you vitamins they never did. A bill that shows a plethora of procedures that make up the total that you can't argue against.

See #10.

because they have agreements which provides discounts that a regular person does not receive.

Yes, that's one of many ways they mitigate risk. Especially when they're forced against their will to insure the uninsurable. That dumpster fire money pit has to be offset somehow.

The correct answer would be to tell the uninsurable to go pound some sand. But we're not interested in the correct answer, are we.

Because you - without stating it - reveal that you deny #1 and #2.

Which means you have no place in this conversation. Get out.

Now try to prove the profit of the hospital is not forcing health care costs to be higher than if the Hospital was government owned which does not apply profit on top of the costs of operation.

Every public hospital in America - EVERY SINGLE ONE - operates at a loss. Because they are forbidden, by law, to pick and choose their customers. They get no choice, no freedom - and that's a tradeoff they gladly make in return for taxpayer dollars, which EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM CHOOSES because they know that's an unlimited wallet. Never mind that it's borrowed money, just so long as it keeps coming in and Sugar Daddy Gov keeps pretending that "need = right."

We've seen plainly what a 'government-owned' hospital is. A total and abject failure. And a money pit.

[dangfitz]

How about a compromise? Have a “public option”, but also a free market option? You can go into the centrally planned, socialist version of health care, but also have a deregulated option as a choice.

[TJJ2000]

Isn't that exactly what an Insurance policy is?

Oh yeah; Except those missing tools of armed-theft.
The monopoly of Guns used by Government Enforcement.

If it doesn't require 'Gun' threats against people it doesn't require government.
Which really points to the truth behind Gov Healthcare advocates.
'Guns' and Gun-Threats against us will make us healthy! /s
Talk about an oxymoron.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

You are conflating mandatory with “gun threat”. Every kid needs to go to school and get vaccinated and have health insurance. Move to Afghanistan if you can’t accept that…thanks to Trump surrendering to the Taliban you can experience literal “gun threats” instead of figurative “gun threats”. 😉

[TJJ2000]

How do you think 'mandatory' gets executed?

The only tool in governments toolbox that separates it from any run of the mill business or organization is the UN-challenged use of the nations monopoly of 'Guns'. Did you think all those law enforcement officers packing 'Guns' was just for show? How would the law be enforced w/o them?

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

Then it will end up like the public school system with the wealthy paying for something that is free. It’s counterintuitive—if something that is mandatory is free then you pay for it. And if something is free that isn’t mandatory like college then you pay as little as possible for the best. So in Texas you would want your kid to go to UT but you would pay to send them to St Marks.

[SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad]

Nope. The government will just subsidize the socialist option and run the private companies out of business. Then it all goes to shit. Just get government out of healthcare.

[Rick James]

You mean "another one on top of the one(s) we already have"?

[TJJ2000]

^THIS [phone].....

One of the lefts worst characteristics, that is but a consequence of their self-projection (blame-shifting), is the Double-Down on what's NOT Working.

If a hammer won't fix their FM-Radio, pickup a sledge hammer!!! Wrong tool for the JOB (as-in Gov 'Guns' for health) in which the result is nothing but more destruction/dysfunction.

It really is amazing how much "'Guns' will make sh*t" garbage has been indoctrinated into the peoples minds. So much so they're correlating a soldering iron with a sledge hammer unconsciously.

People need to figure out exactly what Government is before they'll ever know how to use it.

[Neutral not Neutered]

The issue is you do not understand the true level and quality of care available in Canada is equal to the US. And the costs are lower because there is no profit.

Yes you will wait longer for non life threatening and cosmetic issues. But you will get the triple by pass surgery, cancer treatments and all medications required.

I have witnessed the pain of not having insurance in the US and how I was raped financially. And I also witnessed having health insurance in the US and how I was still raped financially.

And I have witnessed people being treated for cancer, heart disease and so many others.

I can tell you right now, with the best available health insurance in the US, I would be going bankrupt right now with the health care costs that my direct family has incurred this past year. But because I now live in Canada, my wife's treatments saved her life, though she died and was revived by paramedics and treated in intensive care, she is now cancer free and the only financial burden was my time, transportation and parking at the hospitals and clinics.

No co pays. No deductibles, no monthly insurance payments through my employer, no ambulance fees, no emergency doctors fees, etc.

People do not understand the subliminal calm society has when knowing that if they end up with a life threatening illness they will not be bankrupted or financial wiped out. I believe some of the stress in America would not exist if health insurance was removed and health care was simply health care available to all.

The one stance I have is there should be no profit made from people's health or their lives.

The system can be a high bred public system with private care available for those who can afford it or are willing to pay.

[TJJ2000]

Right... /s People do not understand the subliminal calm society has by knowing that they can use 'Guns' (Gov-Guns) against their neighbors to STEAL and bankrupt them instead of themselves.

Well. Except those 'icky' neighbors getting all their profits STOLEN from them.

You're literally selling a CRIME-PAYS narrative and if you think that works down the road you can MOVE you criminal *ss to Canada. The USA didn't fight a revolution to continue on with the CRIME-PAYS governing model.

[Social Justice is neither]

Bullshit you lying commie. There are higher taxes, longer waits and lower quality of care but you just gotta sell a lie. Go sell your "profit is evil" nonsense somewhere as ignorant as you are like Salon or Vox.

[Neutral not Neutered]

I never said profit is evil. Get a grip.

Human beings health care should be a not for profit industry. Profiting off of people's health is antithetical to care. I am not talking about the doctors fees or the nurses wages. I am not talking about tech companies developing new medical technology. I am talking about the hospital an the actual cost for the procedures versus the astronomical amounts paid to health insurance companies.

Aren't you for having the power to decide for yourself with your hard earned money? Then why the fuck are you letting an insurance company, which acts on communist economics bundling you in with the collective, decide the level of care you get? The bonuses of the board determines the level of care provided.

If you are in business for profit, don't own a hospital, own a jail or a morgue or a mini mart.

[TJJ2000]

"I'm against communist economics bundling you in with the collective"
"BUT ... Universal Healthcare isn't that!" ??? RU F'En joking?

Alright. If you can't see the stupid in that I've got a bridge in the Sarah desert to sell you.

[Vernon Depner]

About half of Americans are already on some kind of government-provided medical insurance, between Medicaid, Medicare, TRICARE, and the VA.

[TJJ2000]

Wonder what happens when they ALL are on the 'armed-left' livelihood model?
Oh yeah; They start conquering and consuming other nations.
One of the predictable things [Na]tional So[zi]alist nations always end up trying to do.

[Neutral not Neutered]

You act just like these leftist Mayors defunding the police. They don't care because they have personal security an live in a gated community.

You don't care it doesn't affect you because you have enough cash and good insurance. You're lucky to work for a company that provides great benefits. So fuck all those who don't eh? You or a family member can die of cardiac arrest, be brought back to life and stay in the hospital for months while you or your spouse ends up with cancer and requiring major treatments for a year. And you will be fine, just a scratch.

Health care should not be about running a business, it should be about the people. The only industry that should be not for profit. Without the insurance companies taking their profits for being a middle man doctors an nurses could be paid more and more of them could be hired...

[TJJ2000]

If leftist mayors are de-funding a police force that STEALS for their own healthcare then I'm a leftist. Guess what? That's not why leftist want the police de-funded. They want ensured JUSTICE enforcement de-funded so they can STEAL their healthcare from others. Exactly what you're trying to do all the way down this entire thread.

"So fuck all those who don't eh?" YES. That is the correct response to people trying to Gun you down for your paycheck. If it's that important they can get their Universal Healthcare in PRISON where criminals should get it.

[TJJ2000]

As I've stated much better .....

https://reason.com/2025/07/17/debunking-the-100000-medicaid-deaths-myth/?comments=true#comment-11131032