Dave Smith, David Stockman, and Jacob Grier: Who Is The Lesser Evil?

Dave Smith is for Trump. Jacob Grier is for Harris. David Stockman says we're screwed either way.

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Dave Smith, David Stockman, and Jacob Grier: Who Is The Lesser Evil?

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Is this the most important election ever? And who should win? Just asking questions.

Next week, America decides: elect the 78-year-old criminally indicted, twice-impeached ex-president who's pledged to impose a universal tariff of 20 percent and embark on the largest mass deportation in American history; or his opponent, the vice president, swapped in for a malfunctioning Joe Biden, whose first major policy proposal was to cap grocery store prices to fight inflation, and who has trouble explaining how she'd govern any differently than her increasingly unpopular predecessor. It's a close race.

Independents, including libertarians, will likely decide it.

So we've invited three of them on today with three different perspectives to explain their votes. The first is David Stockman. He's the former director of the Office of Budget Management under Ronald Reagan. He served as a U.S. representative, and he says whoever wins we're basically screwed because neither candidate is addressing the most important policy issues facing America today.

Then we'll talk to Dave Smith, a repeat guest on the show, host of the popular Part of the Problem podcast. He says he's reluctantly and probably voting for Trump because of the threat that Kamala Harris—and the political machine that she represents—poses to liberty in America.

And lastly, we'll talk with Jacob Grier, a writer and Reason contributor who says that from a libertarian and small government perspective, the choice is obvious. Donald Trump is an authoritarian threat and Kamala Harris is a far superior choice.

Let's just ask each of them some questions.

Sources Referenced:

• David Stockman at The Soho Forum: Are the Two Parties Any Different?
• Dave Smith: I'm Voting For Trump | Part Of The Problem
• Just Asking Questions with Ford Fischer: What's the Untold Story Behind 'Stop the Steal'?
• Just Asking Questions with Vivek Ramaswamy: Is There a Libertarian-Nationalist Alliance?
• Jacob Grier: To My Fellow Libertarians: It's Time to Embrace the Harris-Walz Ticket
• How Are Reason Staffers Voting in 2024?

Chapters:

• 00:00 Coming up…
• 00:39 Introduction
• 02:50 David Stockman: Harris and Trump are both intolerable
• 35:15 Dave Smith: Voting against Harris
• 01:19:28 Jacob Grier: Voting against Trump

• Producer: John Osterhoudt

Comments

[Dillinger]

>>whoever wins we're basically screwed

this election is People v. Rulers there is little time for nonsensical equivocation.

[Don't look at me!]

The choice is obvious if you have a clear head.

[mad.casual]

Scott Green, Verne Troyer, Mike Meyers in that order.

[MT-Man]

Hey Jacob, Jacobin, whatever.. what's your thoughts on Kamala during the covid OSHA crap, forgive student loans, rule by decree the last four years in relationship to your statement of - And lastly, we'll talk with Jacob Grier, a writer and Reason contributor who says that from a libertarian and small government perspective, the choice is obvious. Donald Trump is an authoritarian threat and Kamala Harris is a far superior choice.

[Zeb]

Yeah, I don't get it. I can see calling Trump an authoritarian (in my mind, everyone who doesn't think the government is at least 10X too big is an authoritarian). But if Trump is authoritarian, then pretty much any Democrat is a super-extra-authoritarian.

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

“Jacob Grier, a writer and Reason contributor who says that from a libertarian and small government perspective, the choice is obvious. Donald Trump is an authoritarian threat

Which Jacob Grier know is an obvious lie because Trump never removed his opponent from a ballot. Biden/Harris did.
Trump never used the CIA and FBI against his opponent. Biden/Harris did.
Trump never censored citizens political speech. Biden/Harris did.
Trump never spied on journalists and political opponents. Biden/Harris did.
Trump never forced experimental medical treatments on millions by using threats. Biden/Harris did.

You can only come to one logical conclusion about Grier. Either he is so incredibly tribal he will knowingly lie to support the Democrats, or he’s been paid to do so.

[mad.casual]

And this doesn’t even begin to encroach on things like the dronessassination and crime bills an open lies and deceptions around the ACA and DACA and pay-to-play of the Clinton-Obama-Biden-Harris complex.

[Roberta]

He drew the straw for them to have someone be for Harris.

You don't believe the HyR bloggers have been sincere about such choices for the past decade, do you? You know they're overwhelmingly for Trump but not allowed to say so.

[DesigNate]

I'm not sold on this. Especially for the ones living in DC.

[KARtikeya]

Fuck off Canadian garbage!

Worry about your own country you deplorable fucking hick.

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

Fuck off, KAR, you widow-doxxing, ban-evading Nazi sociopath. I get you're pissed off because I criticized the Democrats but I really couldn't give a shit.

[KARtikeya]

You’re defending someone who CHOSE to belong to a church founded by a charlatan who married a 14 year old when he was in his mid 30s

[KARtikeya]

I don’t fuck around when it comes to people who defend child fuckers.

I wonder how many Métis work at college of New Caledonia or UNBC?

You are gonna PAY for what you’ve done to MY COUNTRY you Putin loving piece of trash.

[Lawrence]

Well said, my friend. Grier is just another abysmally ignorant leftist masquerading as a libertarian.

[Quicktown Brix]

"He [Dave Smith] says he's reluctantly and probably voting for Trump "

Notably "reluctantly," but not "strategically."

[Don't look at me!]

And just “probably “.

[shadydave]

According to him, Kamala touring Michigan with Liz Cheney shoved him over the edge. Whether or not you believe him is fair enough. That said, his visceral hatred of the Cheneys is extremely longstanding.

[Quicktown Brix]

Yeah, there's endless reasons to despise the Cheneys and Kamala. I'm glad they are all circling the event horizon of the uniparty black hole. They can't cross soon enough.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

That said, his visceral hatred of the Cheneys is extremely longstanding.
And I would add admirable.

[NoVaNick]

I am kinda shocked that Grier, who rhapsodizes on the joys of tobacco and vaping, would endorse a candidate from a party and state that has long been hostile to his favorite vice. Trump actually blocked an imminent flavor ban that would have shut down thousands of vape shops. There may be other reasons to vote against Trump, but this isn’t one of them.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

The obvious being a TDS-addled shit pile.

[NoVaNick]

Well, Grier is from Portland and if he didn’t come out as too anti-Trump, antifa might go after him. Or he could be like 99% of progs who don’t realize that a government which provides everything can also take it away…

[shadydave]

Watching the Vance/Rogan interview now. Vance is _really_ good in interviews, and is doing even better in this sort of setup. I mean I think I agree with him less than I agree with Trump, but he's doing really well here. Rogan seems to be enjoying himself.

[R Mac]

Same. It’s been a good episode.

[shadydave]

Yeah Vance is a much better speaker than his policy beliefs.

In any event neither Harris nor Walz could do this podcast. And Trump and Vance have done it pretty effortlessly.

[Zeb]

We'll see how desperate she gets. But I can only imagine Harris on Rogan would be a disaster. Maybe if he could get her to smoke some weed it might be funny, though.

[Quicktown Brix]

Dear god, Zeb. Kamala with the giggles? NO.

[Zeb]

Fair point. Maybe not with that laugh.

[R Mac]

Also:

Joe Rogan!???!!! HE PRETENDED TO BE A DOCTOR DURING COVID!!!!! Argg!!!

— Lying Jeffy

[MasterThief]

Still working my way through it (didn't realize it was out today and only started it on the commute home.
He is immediately very personable and engaging. He steers through subjects well. While he does plenty of cursing (which in previous cycles would be verboten for an electoral candidate) he still rides that line of being presidential and relatable.
If he moves a bit on a few issues, then I'm an early supporter for his 2028 bid.

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

How many people are watching right now? There were almost 500K when I had to stop and go back to work.

[Eeyore]

Nothing will be done in the next 4 years? Really? Spending will increase to new levels. Nothing will stop the beast from consuming us all.

[Eeyore]

Paralysis would be a blessing. Nothing is going to stop the money train.

[car-keynes]

Barter 2.0 run like Amazon via cryptocurrency virtual store credits

[R Mac]

I think at this point the most compelling reason to support Trump, other than the obvious of stopping Harris, is that it will be the final death blow to the corporate media, which deserves to die a thousand painful deaths after lying us into 20+ years of catastrophic wars and covid tyranny.

If the entire media apparatus told the American people that Trump was a Nazi, Russian spy, end of democracy for 8 years and they still turn around and reelect him, they’re done.

Not only that, but the narrative writes itself: Rogan won Trump the election! She refused and he accepted and that was the difference.

Us libertarians are not going to get everything we want this election, like usual, but destroying the war criminal’s propaganda apparatus is not too shabby.

https://x.com/ComicDaveSmith/status/1852032462102179973

[MasterThief]

I do sincerely wonder if that could be the difference between a Trump win and a successfully fortified election for Kamala.

[car-keynes]

That's no reason.

The media can say anything,. But that's not the important thing, all by itself.

[Rick James]

Is the guy who says 'we're screwed either way' voting for Harris? Because, there's a lot of that going around these days.

[Zeb]

Well, if we're screwed either way, might as well still get the good cocktail party invites.

[shadydave]

That really is what this is about: the social circles of these people are all pretty hard left. I can sympathize because, for the most part, so is mine.

But there just isn't any reality where Harris is closer on her policy positions to libertarians than Trump is. It's just not a thing. So if you're a libertarian leaning Harris, you're likely just doing it because it's a more socially acceptable thing to do than the other way around.

[MasterThief]

It’s interesting too that they got someone who hates Trump and has heavily criticized him to be his advocate here.
I need to check out what Grier has written here because I don’t recognize the name and want to see if his writing reflects the same fantasyland he describes here.

Edit: I checked his writing history and see why I don't recognize it. I give zero fucks about smoking, vaping, or obscure alcohol rules. It's a beat that is low to nonexistent on my list of priorities.

[Rick James]

Edit: I checked his writing history and see why I don’t recognize it. I give zero fucks about smoking, vaping, or obscure alcohol rules. It’s a beat that is low to nonexistent on my list of priorities.

Yeah, 90s-era libertarian concerns.

[Rick James]

That’s why when you strategically and reluctantly vote for Harris, you don’t cite libertarian-ish policy positions. You cite Trump’s dangerous attacks on Democracy, the “attack” on the Capitol, his antagonism towards Journalismists, and q-anon… or something.

[KARtikeya]

You should hide east of the Cascades.

Your neighbors are fucking sick of you, you fucking traitor.

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

Fuck off, KAR, you widow-doxxing, ban-evading Nazi sociopath. I get you’re pissed off because Rick James criticized the Democrats, but nobody gives a shit that a fifty-year-old, grocery-bagging anti-theist edgelord is butthurt.

[Brett Bellmore]

Well, "we're screwed either way" IS kind of a feature of voting for the lesser evil. You're just trying to get screwed less, not avoid being screwed at all.

[R Mac]

Amazing clip where Jonathan Last brags about the Neocons taking over the Democratic Party and the rest of the Bulwark crew remind him that they aren't supposed to say that part out loud

https://x.com/AuronMacintyre/status/1852072746592727547

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

"Don't - don't say that"
"Yeah, don't say that"

LOL

[NoVaNick]

Neocons have always been democrats or they would never have needed the “neo” part

[KARtikeya]

Prince George isn’t very big.

It’s gonna be easy to track you down you anti-American fascist!

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

Track me down and what? Suck my dink? Throw a punch? Preach your neo-Nazi shit to me? Pick your teeth up?

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

Oh, and I'm driving down on Monday to vote. The Democrats said its okay.

[KARtikeya]

I’m planning on going to Whistler in January.

I’m so proud of my friends in Vancouver for not voting for Rustad,

You country bumpkins need to accept you are inferior to those of us in Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland.

It’s going to get ugly if you keep causing trouble.

[JoeB]

Among three choices, choose the least, not the "lesser". Hackery trump's grammar everywhere, I suppose.

[KARtikeya]

Choose Chase.

After the election. Exterminate the Trump traitors.

[Mother's Lament (garbage)]

Okay Sarcasmic. Lying Jeffy said you guy's never make violent threats. You sure showed him.

[car-keynes]

But seriously, how much is your vote really worth when cast for a winning candidate?

Entertainers such as Arnold Schwarzenegger have it all the way to the old adage, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." His vote for Kamela Harris changes nothing qualitatovely, but it does let him insert his claim effectively about Republicans pulling away from free markets and other worthy principles. It doesn't make much of a difference who wins what with third parties in a sandbox and first parties still running around the playground with popular license to look effective.

But how effective? Even first parties have their own fails.

Harris or Trump can each run through the hoops that make everyone look effective. That makes either presidency worth the attention of the full range of free press.

When was the last time you saw an actual third party campaign running like it made a difference?

Which brings us back to my first question: how much is a winning vote really worth for each campaign? And you may include other third parties, but a qualitative analysis could make for interesting reading.

[Minadin]

Lesser Evil? I guess I would go with Dave Smith.

Thanks for asking.

[DesigNate]

"...Jacob Grier, a writer and Reason contributor who says that from a libertarian and small government perspective, the choice is obvious."

It's been fucking obvious who the best choice from a libertarian and small government perspective is for going on 8 years.

"Donald Trump is an authoritarian threat and Kamala Harris is a far superior choice."

Wait, what?

[Lawrence]

No one who would vote for Kamala is a libertarian. She's authoritarian to the core. Donald's only partly authoritarian. He does favor some substantial free market policies. Kamala favors NONE.

[Lawrence]

"To Dave S. the future of "Trumpism" could be rather lengthy, as embodied in relatively young politicians and thought-leaders such as Bobby K. Tulsi. Vivek, JD Vance, Tucker, Elon, et al.

As for Jacob Grier, he just sounds like a leftist liberal. To be that requires abysmal ignorance of the current world, and Grier extols that ignorance beautifully.

[Ezra MacVie]

Voting for EITHER is a wasted vote. No, WORSE.

[irilyth]

Are Dave Smith and David Stockman idiots, or just assholes? Either they're too stupid to learn how to pronounce Kamala Harris's name; or they're assholes who somehow think this is a clever way to insult her.

Zach and Liz, did you not correct them because you wanted them to look bad?