Trent Horn: Can a Catholic be a Socialist?

Catholic Answers apologist Trent Horn explores the nexus of Catholic social teaching and libertarianism.

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Trent Horn: Can a Catholic be a Socialist?

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Can a Catholic be a socialist? Can a libertarian be a Catholic? Just asking questions. 

Today's guest, Trent Horn, is an apologist and speaker for Catholic Answers and a defender of capitalism. He hosts The Counsel of Trent podcast and has authored several books on Catholicism, including Can a Catholic Be a Socialist? In this episode, we discuss the themes of that book, respond to some of the anti-capitalist rhetoric that has come from the Vatican over the past decade, analyze the rise of "post-liberal" Catholics on the right, and question whether religion is becoming more palatable to the modern person.

Watch the full conversation on Reason's YouTube channel or the Just Asking Questions podcast feed on Apple, Spotify, or your preferred podcatcher.

Sources referenced in the conversation:

1. Can A Catholic Be a Socialist? The Answer is No—Here's Why
2. Evangelii Gaudium: Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) by Pope Francis
3. Pope Francis' 2017 TED Talk: "Why the Only Future Worth Building Includes Everyone"
4. Against David French-ism by Sohrab Ahmari
5. Motte-and-bailey fallacy
6. Zach and Liz's Interview with Johan Norberg
7. Jordan Peterson on the Power of the Easter Message

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Opening Monologue
• 01:25 Can a Catholic Defend Capitalism?
• 03:30 Pope Francis and Capitalism
• 05:21 Historical Criticisms of Socialism
• 07:06 The Tension Between Employers and Workers
• 09:38 Catholic Teachings on Economics
• 29:35 Libertarianism and Catholicism: A Natural Overlap?
• 41:50 The Role of Natural Law in Catholic Thought
• 43:49 Understanding Catholic Definitions of Law
• 44:06 Natural Law and Moral Commands
• 45:42 Human Laws and Justice
• 48:28 Catholicism and Science
• 50:35 Liberty and the Good Life
• 52:46 Debating Legalization of Prostitution
• 54:49 Libertarianism and Consumerism
• 01:01:39 Catholic Politics and State Intervention
• 01:13:21 Jordan Peterson on Catholicism
• 01:19:31 Final Thoughts: Who are you supposed to be?

• Producer: John Osterhoudt

Comments

[Rick James]

You might turn your attention to a one Tom Holland-- Liz Wolfe, as I know you're watching Maiden Mother Matriarch who did an excellent interview with him recently.

[Rob Misek]

I thought all libertarians were Jews.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

You ‘think’ a lot of stupid things. This is why you’re a Nazi, and Islamist propagandist.

[Nobartium]

Catholicism is about the centralized authority of The Church.

It would be far easier to be a libertarian and Eastern Orthodox.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I dunno. How about libertarians and Rothbard or Ayn Rand as their one true leader?

(OT -- I wonder what the relation is between Rand Paul and Ayn Rand? Did Ron and wife choose Rand for that reason? What if he had been a she, would she have been Ayn? I have never heard of anyone else with the first name of Rand.)

[Brandybuck]

> I have never heard of anyone else with the first name of Rand

Am playing remake of Riven. Sequel to Myst. Produced by Rand Miller.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

His name isn’t ’Rand’. It’s Randal. Just like calling Jonathon ‘Jon’.

[shadydave]

deleted

[Mother's Lament]

Drivel

[Mother's Lament (June is Banana Republic Month, celebrate responsibly)]

Fuck off, troll. I hope an angry parent catches you.

[Bill Dalasio]

This has long been known to be false. The Pauls called their son Randy. Rand was the name given him by his wife.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Ah, thanks.

[John C. Randolph]

His name at birth was Randall. Everyone called him Rand for most of his life so he went with it.

-jcr

[Brandybuck]

Catholicism is the centralized RELIGIOUS authority of one branch of The Church. As such it's an entirely voluntary organization that has ZERO authority over those in other denominations or religions.

[Mickey Rat]

All the other denominations are schismatics and/or heretics, so...

[MrMxyzptlk]

When you brainwash a child into an organization and continue to tell them they will suffer eternally for quitting the organization it's not voluntary.

[Brandybuck]

Gosh, you make it sound like Trumpism or something.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Trumpism would have to last a lot longer for the kids of Trump Supporters to have any affect on the electoral process. That's assuming most of his die hard followers are able to find a mate and keep them long enough to reproduce in the first place.

Catholicism has had a much longer run.

[CLM1227]

When libertarians say shit like this, I think they are ignoramuses.

Libertarianism is about free associations, not forced associations. Any association that allows you to freely choose it is compatible with libertarianism. Because government is a forced association, libertarians demands very tight limitations on the exercise of that power.

[IceTrey]

Christianity is socialist.

[MrMxyzptlk]

It's a great religion for slaves. Meek inheriting the earth, rich men into heaven and camels through eyes of needles, treasure in heaven... shit like that.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

And that regenerated into a new body after being mortally wounded. Then going on to travel time and space. Sometimes returning to earth to stop monsters, alien invasions, Hillary Clinton, wtc..

[Incunabulum]

Christianity is charitable, not socialist.

[Zeb]

The early church was pretty socialist. But voluntarily so. And that didn't last long. The early church also wasn't about gaining worldly political power and that didn't last long either.

[Brandybuck]

If it's voluntary it's not socialist. Which is why every anarcho-socialist commune quickly failed if they weren't religious based.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Socialism isn’t being charitable. It’s stealing from others for redistributive purposes.

[Incunabulum]

Of course they can - socialism encompasses at least 4 of the 10 commandments.

Jealousy, theft, pride, and murder
Gives you something to do at confession.

[Brandybuck]

> the nexus of Catholic social teaching and libertarianism

Sohrab Ahmari hardest hit, story at eleven.

[A Thinking Mind]

Absolutely. The Soviet Union didn't abolish religion because it was necessarily incompatible with socialism or communism, it's because they were also progressive and anti-institutionalist. They wanted to tear down things that could be identified with the old order because that's tied in their idea of progress. Just like French Revolution tore down the power of the church and tried to establish their own calendar. People who are revolutionaries have revolutionary impulses.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

The Marxist State doesn’t like competition.

[MrMxyzptlk]

The Russian Orthodx Church continued to operate in the Soviet Union. Also Stalin was raised to be a priest.

[JFree]

Yeesh. The Catholic Church is not even credible on ethics unless kiddie diddling is deemed ethical. Not at all a surprise I guess that the version of Catholicism here talking about economics seems about as grounded as Tim Tebow evangelizing via athletics.

I guess I didn't really expect much on distributism or that ilk of stuff but it would have been good to at least try to figure out how it is different than any real-world manifestation of economics. Not using 21st century non-Catholic refutation of postmodernism, deconstructivism, poststructuralism, or feminist anti-rationalism (the motte and bailey reference) but you know actual Catholic doctrine re the real world. And nothing from the Bible either (like Jubilee or Jesusite stuff - though I suppose that's a very Protestant demand).

Buy hey - maybe I have to convert to get the skinny.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Actually Prodestant faiths have a higher per capita level of kiddy diddling than Catholics. At least that's what the Catholics tell me.

[JFree]

They may. I was talking more about the Protestant notion of sola scriptura or prima scriptura. That one relies on the text/Bible not the Pope/church. That's why it's Bible verses that get (mis)quoted not papal encyclicals.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Yet the prodestants removed four books from the Catholic version to make their holy scripture. So saying scripture is the source after editing the scripture seems pretty stupid.

[Brandybuck]

Catholicism does not condone "kiddie diddling". That individuals in the church in positions of authority sometimes diddle kids does not mean it's somehow doctrine. The same thing happens in any organization where kids are left alone with lone adults. Boy Scouts, public schools, sports coaches, etc. In a town where I worked they had a serious problem with a teacher in a private JW middle school diddling the junior high girls.

What Catholicism does, which they are starting to change, is handle the problem internally, by reassigning the priest elsewhere. Which is exactly what the Jehovah Witnesses did with that teacher above. Sent him off to a different school out of state.

[Brett Bellmore]

Right, I believe the statistics say the problem is actually much worse in the elementary schools.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Ah, yes. Ship them elsewhere to start the whole thing over again. Maybe they should admit that humans have very real drives to reproduce and all they do by denying those drives is make the problem worse.

[Mother's Lament]

Practically or technically or dogmatically?

Absolutely. That’s why the increase in literacy and the translation of the Bible led directly to socialism. Unfortunately for them, those same things also led directly to the rebirth of systems based on natural rights.

Unfortunately for everyone, universal literacy plus behavioral psychology nullified all the gains and we’re back to being serfs again.

[Mother's Lament (June is Banana Republic Month, celebrate responsibly)]

Fuck off, Troll. Quit trying to spoof me. Also, that's an awful lot of Youtube atheist midwittery for an angry pedophile like you.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

You deserve all the spoofing that you get.

[Mother's Lament (June is Banana Republic Month, celebrate responsibly)]

Hey Nazi rape apologist, is it you doing it?

[MrMxyzptlk]

Are you saying that isn't you on another account?

I can't believe it. You must have done this just to elicit sympathy. I'm sure it's a conspiracy of some kind.

[AT]

Can a Catholic be a Socialist?

Nope.

[StevenF]

Trent Horn: Can a Catholic be a Socialist?
Catholic Answers apologist Trent Horn explores the nexus of Catholic social teaching and libertarianism.

A socialist can't be a libertarian.