Nico Perrino: When Does Protesting Become a Crime?

Executive VP of FIRE Nico Perrino discusses the history and legality of campus protests.

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Nico Perrino: When Does Protesting Become a Crime?

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What should colleges do about pro-Palestinian encampments?

College students across America are camping out to demand their universities divest all investments with Israeli-linked companies that they claim profit from the occupation and oppression of Palestine. It's gone on for weeks, and even administrators at schools known as bastions of progressive activism are finally getting fed up. Harvard's president is threatening "involuntary leave" for protesters. Columbia announced on Monday that it canceled its main commencement ceremony for safety reasons. The University of Southern California has, too.

UCLA called in the cops to clear its encampment, and police have arrested more than 2,100 protesters across all U.S. campuses since April, according to the Associated Press.

Congress has continued to interrogate Ivy League presidents, and a bill to explicitly define antisemitism for civil rights law enforcement purposes just passed the House with overwhelming support last week.

Joining us today to talk about the protests, the backlash, and what it all means for free speech on campus and the wider world is Nico Perrino, executive vice president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), and host of the free speech podcast So to Speak.

Watch the full conversation on Reason's YouTube channel or the Just Asking Questions podcast feed on Apple, Spotify, or your preferred podcatcher.

Sources referenced in this conversation:

1. Full Text of the Antisemitism Awareness Act
2. International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition of antisemitism.
3. Columbia students define "divest"
4. Harvard President Garber Breaks Silence on Encampment, Threatens 'Involuntary Leave' for Protesters
5. Columbia cancels commencement amid campus protests
6. Map: Where College Protesters Have Been Arrested or Detained
7. Polling 1,200 college students on Encampments
8. What Americans think about recent pro-Palestinian campus protests | YouGov
9. Americans' Views of Both Israel, Palestinian Authority Down
10. Majority in US Say Israel's Reasons for Fighting Hamas Are Valid | Pew Research Center
11. Letter from judges saying they won't hire Columbia grads as clerks

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:33 Free Speech on Campus: A Conversation with Nico Perrino
• 02:13 The Historical Context of Campus Protests and Free Speech Debates
• 07:28 The Legal and Social Implications of Campus Encampments
• 31:38 The Role of Civil Disobedience in Campus Activism
• 38:31 Evaluating the Effectiveness of Campus Protests Through Polling Data
• 43:07 Congressional Involvement in Campus Free Speech Issues
• 50:48 The Anti-Semitism Awareness Act of 2023: A New Legal Battleground
• 54:56 The Complexities of Free Speech and Political Expression on Campus
• 59:17 Navigating the Tensions of Privacy and Free Speech
• 01:03:42 The Role of Public Shaming and Cancel Culture in Free Speech Debates
• 01:20:03 Nico Wants You To Ask Yourself This Question About Censorship
• 01:23:58 Just Ask Us Questions: A Libertarian's Evolving Stance on Immigration

• Producer: John Osterhoudt

Comments

[Minadin]

What would they do if they were calling for the genocide of black people? Let them camp on the lawn and harass people?

[Rob Misek]

Good point. That is exactly what they aren’t doing. They aren’t looting and vandalizing.

They are peacefully protesting the advocacy of, by their government, mainstream media and biased financial recipients (like universities), genocide.

Students tuitions pay for their right to be there and to exercise free speech. Places of education (as opposed to indoctrination) necessarily share and enquire about truth. ESPECIALLY when that truth is being censored.

Universities can erect barriers around the protest and encampment to keep troublemakers out. Counter-protesting is an intentionally confrontational source of conflict and if they breach the barrier only they should be arrested and charged.

[JesseAz]

Refuted. The no vandalism assertion was extra retarded though.

[Brett Bellmore]

Sure was.

Smashed windows, stacked furniture left after occupation of Hamilton Hall at Columbia University

Dramatic before-and-after photos show Columbia University’s anti-Israel tent city finally gone after NYPD raid

Killed most of the lawn with their encampment, too, as you'd expect.

[Rob Misek]

Photos after the peaceful protesters were attacked by Jewish and police stooges.

Like pictures of the peaceful civilian homes in Gaza AFTER the Jewish genocide.

Only a stooge would try to blame that on the 24000 non combatant women and children slaughtered by Jews.

[Rob Misek]

Only photos of protesters and their camps before they were attacked could refute my statement.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Trashing public places is something people do when they aren't protesting. Tragedy of the commons is as old as people.

[Rob Misek]

The student protesters are peaceful and respectful until they are attacked by Jewish and police stooges.

If you can prove that they are “trashing” the university areas of their encampments before being attacked - DO IT. You haven’t.

They are using the public gathering area resources to protest their government’s and their universities complicity in genocide.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

So which anti jew protests are you attending?

[Minadin]

Figured out what happened to Baghdad Bob.

Nothing to see here!

[StevenF]

Not only are they doing EVERYTHING you claim they are not. They are NOT doing anything you claim they are.
Students DO NOT pay for the privilege of camping out anywhere, and the places of indoctrination are no exception.
It is not even theoretically possible to erect barriers around the encampments to keep trouble makers out, because setting up an encampment is making trouble.
You are couldn't be further from the truth if you actually knew what you are babbling about and tried to be dead wrong.

[Rob Misek]

Prove it. If you want to refute what I say, provide irrefutable evidence that demonstrates what I’ve said is not true.

Provide evidence that university students are violent and destructive BEFORE they are attacked with violence and destruction.

Or don’t refute anything and demonstrate that you’re only interested in lying and spreading misinformation.

Do any of you supporting the genocide of non combatant women and children in Gaza simply because they “look like” Hamas recognize that your advocation of purely racist genocide can easily be applied to you and your own loved ones?

What will be your argument against genocide when it is?

Stop the Jewish genocide in Gaza and bring Netanyahu, his ministers and enablers including Biden to justice.

[mad.casual]

It's a shame we can't all get our money back from all the Critical Race Theory programs that weren't needed to deal with all the antisemitic, white supremacist tent encampments waiting to spring forth opportunistically.

[CE]

Say whatever you want. Write whatever you want on your signs. Specific threats against specific people might get you in trouble.

Trespassing is a crime. Don't expect to set up camp where camping is not allowed by the property owners.

Disturbing the peace and interrupting people going about their business is also a crime, and rude besides.

[Idaho-Bob]

and interrupting people going about their business

Not just interrupting people, restraining people against their will; AKA kidnapping.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

Or telling people they need to get their permission to traverse a public space.

[Mickey Rat]

Intersectionslity is damned inconvenient when one of your favored demographics is openly bigoted, hostile and even violent towards one of the others (especially when the latter demographic forms a not insignificant portion of your donor base). It makes for embarrassing photos and such

[mad.casual]

*Exceptionally* openly bigoted, hostile, and even violent.

Presumably, generations Klansmen have been wandering campuses since the 60s and, rather than setting up tents and harassing minority students, were forced to rely on more subtle systemic means. Means so subtle and nefarious that it requires advanced academic training and scrutiny, taught from the grade school level onward, in order to even be recognized and ferreted out.

[TJJ2000]

Commie-Indoctrination Camps.

If anyone wants a real live demonstration in today's times of what MORE 'gov-gun' Communism leads too look no further than the Commie-Indoctrination Camps.

[sarcasmic]

It's who, not what. If you like the politics of the protestors then they can't do anything wrong and anyone who complains is the bad guy. Anyone who gets arrested is a martyr. If you don't like the politics of the protestors then they're rioters who need to be locked up forever. Principals, not principles.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I fear I have misjudged you, you really are just a parody.

[JesseAz]

Arrest those 1400 J6 protestors who committed no violence or vandalism yelled the hypocrite. Don't use unmarked vans against Portland protestors trying to burn down a police building with people inside yelled the hypocrite.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

He’s all about ideas, you know.

Just ask him.

[MrMxyzptlk]

Look. A college campus open area is not the same as the office of a sitting federal Senator. If that is beyond your comprehension then there is no hope for you.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

Like the way your democrat friends have indefinitely detained the J6 people?

[Dillinger]

>>what it all means for free speech on campus

let us know when it becomes a free speech on campus issue.

[Vernon Depner]

Let us know when elite universities show even the slightest interest in protecting freedom of speech on campus.

[Dillinger]

^

[Vernon Depner]

This isn't complicated. When you commit a crime while protesting, you've committed a crime. That you were "protesting" at the time you committed your crime is irrelevant.

[sarcasmic]

You sure? Because that would mean some of the J6 martyrs were criminals. Isn't that blasphemy?

[Zeb]

I really don't think I've seen anyone claim that no Jan 6 protesters committed any crimes.

[Scooter]

Me either. I've seen a lot of people say that being held without bond for months on end for simple Trespassing was bullshit and that some of the sentences were stupidly harsh for Trespassing.

[sarcasmic]

Well that is certainly the implication when they're described as peaceful tourists turned political prisoners.

[JesseAz]

For the 1200 people who committed no violence or vandalism getting 6 months on average after months in jail prior to trial.. totally deserved it right? Go cheer 5 years for feet on desks while you're at it.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

It’s just more of Sarc’s inconsistent, dishonest bullshit. Because Trump.

[Rick James]

Anyone who damaged property, broke windows or fought with police should be treated like we normally treat people who break windows, damage property or fight with police.

A light sentence followed by a diversion program.

[Vernon Depner]

That's if you're white. If you're Black, no consequences.

[JesseAz]

Maybe even a big settlement for being inconvenienced.

[charliehall]

Donald Trump

[TJJ2000]

Isn't it amazing how he can commit so many crimes in a location he wasn't even present like some sort of black-magic or what?

[Zeb]

Doesn't seem like a difficult question to answer. Same time that any other behavior becomes a crime. Free speech and free assembly and a right to petition does not mean that there is a general right to do anything as long as you call it protest.

[Don't look at me!]

The real crime is that the campus protests weren’t properly catered.

[Social Justice is neither]

At least provide BLT sandwiches.

[mad.casual]

Free matzah, no hummus.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

It would be much easier to round up all the protesters and send them to Gaza in shipping containers.

[American Mongrel]

When you're willing to break the law and suffer the consequences to prove your dedication to whatever your cause?

Or whenever the government says it did?

Depends on the demos, the media and the government.

[TJJ2000]

There’s a lot to be said of this since the very Founding of the USA was by ‘law breakers’ of the British Monarchy. One has to ask; Is the Supreme Law being defended against lawless Nazi-Politicians demands or is the lawless actually destroying the USA.

[Well Adjusted Biden Guy]

JFC! The law is the law!! At least the comment board on this libertarian webpage realizes that! I’m glad libertarians are on board for kicking some non-violent war protesting soft white ass. Throw them into the army like Russia does.

[Don't look at me!]

So commandeering buildings and assaults are non violent?

[Well Adjusted Biden Guy]

Insufficient context to determine. Do such activities include looking to hang Mike Pence and overturning elections because you’re a poor maladjusted loser who thinks Joe Biden likes to take up skirt photos of his daughter? If so then yes. If not, no.

[Don't look at me!]

Idiot.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Do you also shower with your daughter?

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

No one will breed with him. And since there is a better than even chance this is Shrike, he’s more likely to groom other people’s preteen sons into showering with him.

[Rick James]

Look, the guy pulled the fire alarm before a floor vote. I don't know why everyone keeps making such a big deal about it.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

Why do you hate the Army?

[mad.casual]

What should colleges do about pro-Palestinian encampments?

1. Stop accepting federal student loans.
2. Cut administrative jobs and liberal arts schools/majors/programs, by number, back to 1980s levels or before.
3. Kick corporate HR personnel, quangos, and the HR for quangos squarely in the gonads repeatedly and ask project, shift, other business initiative managers, and small business owners directly what they want to see out of future employees.
4. Fail the fuck out of any students who don't meat the criteria of #3, keep their money in exchange for lessons learned.

For starters.

[Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick]

5. Expel any student arrested for any violent or propriety crimes pursuant to their protesting.

6. Coordinate with other universities to blackball anyone expelled related to number five.

7. Cancel all DEI initiatives and terminate all DEI related personnel.

8. Ban all outside entities involved in organizing these protests form campus.

9, Ban all student organizations that support terror and hate. This includes and organizations unwilling to condemn groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Also, anti Jewish groups.

Thats for starters anyway.

[MWAocdoc]

Any university or, for that matter, any educational institution, should exist for the purpose of teaching, research and, to some extent, certifying the achievements of their students. The core activities of educational institutions should be libraries, communications, lectures, laboratories, discussions, supervision of studies and curriculum, and debate. Anything that discourages these activities should be discouraged and, in extreme cases, forbidden. Funding, housing and staffing of, and enrollment in, those activities should be entirely at the discretion of the faculties and administrations of the institutions. No funding of educational institutions or their faculties or students should come from the government or the taxpayers. If legitimate research is required by the Constitutionally allowed and mandated government entities, then the research should be conducted by government employees or contractors at government provided locations, not schools, colleges or universities.

[AT]

Ben Sasse already answered this question:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-adults-are-still-in-charge-at-the-university-of-florida-israel-protests-tents-sasse-eca6389b

[StevenF]

When Does Protesting Become a Crime?
Never. That said, a significant portion of self proclaimed protesters are far more interested in committing crimes than in protesting.