Should Libertarians Support School Choice?

Corey DeAngelis of the American Federation for Children debates libertarian author Stephan Kinsella.

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Should Libertarians Support School Choice?

Education activist Corey DeAngelis and attorney Stephan Kinsella debate the resolution, "Today's school-choice movement in the U.S. is worthy of support by libertarians."

Taking the affirmative is DeAngelis, a senior fellow at the American Federation for Children. He is also the executive director at the Educational Freedom Institute, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, a senior fellow at Reason Foundation, and a board member at the Liberty Justice Center. He was named on the Forbes 30 under 30 list for his work on education policy and received the Buckley Award from America's Future in 2020.

Taking the negative is Kinsella, a libertarian writer and patent attorney. He was previously general counsel for Applied Optoelectronics, Inc., and an adjunct law professor at South Texas College of Law Houston. His publications include Against Intellectual Property, International Investment, Political Risk, and Dispute Resolution, and a forthcoming book Legal Foundations of a Free Society.

The debate was held at New York City's Sheen Center and hosted by The Soho Forum, which receives fiscal sponsorship from Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes Reason.

Comments

[MWAocdoc]

Libertarians should support privatizing all education in America. Pragmatic libertarians should support public education tax money following students wherever they go for education until we can privatize all education and end education taxes completely.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

This.

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[The Glibertine Party]

you are an insane person.

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[Longtobefree]

The choice is between state compulsion and free choice.
How is there anything to debate for a libertarian?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The free choice still includes taxation. But yes, anybody opposed to vouchers on the grounds they are tax-supported is far too a perfectionist for my taste.

[MWAocdoc]

Taxation in some form for the minimum constitutionally required government activities is probably unavoidable and acceptable to all but the most extreme anarcho-libertarian theorists. Wealth transfer taxation - no; tax and spend for the "public good" - nope; education taxes - not just no but hell no!

[Brandybuck]

Not sure where Kinsella is coming from, but I've given up on these debates. I've debated Kinsella myself in my real world persona. I suspect he's just angry that incremental improvements to the terribly status quo just aren't anarchist enough. Sure fine.

Look, I hate the pseudo-privatization of the modern "school choice" movement as much as the next anarchist. It's crony capitalism applied to schools. Corporation schools in bed with government. But a step in the right direction is still a step in the right direction. School choice gets us that much closer to a real choice.

I suspect Kinsella wants the choice to be between government public schools and a complete dissolution of tax funding for any and all schools. But that option is not on the table.

You can't cross the ten foot chasm with two five foot planks.

p.s. On the other hand, it still steams me that the so many people have caved on the idea that private businesses should be running government schools. They're STILL government schools! The libertarian position should be support of school choice that is real school choice. Not just a choice between brands of government schools.

[Mike Laursen]

I’m an incrementalist myself, but this episode of EconTalk goes a bit deeper into the pros and cons of incrementalism vs. perfectionism:

https://simplecast.econtalk.org/episodes/michael-munger-on-the-perfect-vs-the-good

I have to admit, all the pros aren’t on the incrementalist side. After listening to this podcast, I came to the tentative conclusion the best we can do is incrementalism, but making sure to keep a clear end goal in mind.

Is the perfect really the enemy of the good? Or is it the other way around? In 2008, Duke University economist Michael Munger ran for governor and proposed increasing school choice through vouchers for the state’s poorest counties. But some lovers of liberty argued that it’s better to fight for eliminating public schools instead of trying to improve them. Munger realized his fellow free-marketers come in two flavors: directionalists–who take our political realities as given and try to move outcomes closer to the ideal–and destinationists–who want no compromises with what they see as the perfect outcome. Listen as Munger talks to EconTalk’s Russ Roberts about two different strategies for achieving political goals. Along the way, they discuss rent control, the minimum wage, and why free-market policies are so rare.

[MWAocdoc]

Very much so! "Direction" is a very slippery notion in this context. When you're standing on a geographic location and you have a map that shows true north, direction is very well defined. When you're standing on a complex, chaotic socioeconomic system, direction is NOT well defined - in fact it becomes susceptible only to very vague chaos theory analysis and the law of unintended consequences takes over almost completely.

[The Glibertine Party]

in all your white racist shithead libertarian attempts to re-segregate American education i wish u zero luck

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

The only people who want to segregate schools anymore are leftists.

[InsaneTrollLogic]

Doesn't this kind of go without saying?

[MWAocdoc]

Yes, sometimes it’s better when people go without saying … 🙂

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Choice? Yes.

Vouchers? No.

[Mike Laursen]

Can you expound on "vouchers: no"?

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Any private institution should not be taxpayer funded.

This includes schools, churches, and charities.

Once again a simple question destroys a political position - Do you want taxpayers to fund madrasas? We know what the right will do. They invade an institution and relentlessly pound their shitty ideology into it.

Likewise, 'Citizens United' was rightly decided by asking "Should political books be banned?" The anti-Hildog movie was free speech.

[MWAocdoc]

So you prefer the current system where the right gains control of the totally tax-funded public school system and bans discussion of positions you might support?

[Religion and Politics, my life]

HOw dumb: then how do you justify that the people who actually teach in the public schools and the lawmakers who authorize the taxes, the teacher pay , and the use of money SEND THEIR KIDS TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

Public School Teachers: Nationally, more than 20% of public school teachers with school-age children enroll them in private schools, or almost twice the 11% rate for the general public.

Philadelphia Public School Teachers: 44% enroll their own children in private schools, or four times the national average.

Cincinnati Public School Teachers: 41% enroll their own children in private schools, more than three times the national rate.

Chicago Public School Teachers: 39% enroll their own children in private schools, more than three times the national average.

41% of representatives in the House and 46% of U.S. senators send or have sent at least one of their children to a private institution. That contrasts with the rest of the country, where only 10% of families send kids to private schools

THE GREAT ENEMY OF CHOICE, WHERE DID OBAMA SEND HIS KIDS AND WHAT WAS THE TUITION ?
2 Daughters
Lower School (Grades 3-4) $52,110 a year.

So all you liars can now get plastic surgery and a name change. See you then 🙂

[JesseAz]

What do Democrats support? That's what must be opposed. Because they're leftists.

[Religion and Politics, my life]

So then you don't think my forced extraction of taxes for public schools is wrong. Because that is the voucher you prefer. I see.
What an unthinking statement.

[Edmund Burke's Hastings spy]

Then refund me the godawful flood of money I have to give for public education My daughter went to DC schools,absolute sht and expensive sht
$18,069 per student ,for sht you defend

[Nobartium]

Is it too much to ask the debate forum to find an actual interested party to take either position?

I'm happy that DeAngelis took the affirmative, but their negative was a patent lawyer. Like, there's obvious disparity in talent here.

[JesseAz]

Does Trump support school choice? That's the only thing that matters.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Fuck off Shreek.

[CE]

Yes. School choice is better than no school choice. Even better would be to stop charging school taxes to parents who home school and to people without kids.

[Mark U]

How about people who pay to send their children to private schools, should they have to keep paying for both private schools and school taxes?

[Religion and Politics, my life]

How about : Should you , libertarian or not, be in charge of my kids !!
But just on libertarian grounds , the answer is "YES"
Whose money pays for these schools?
Whose ultimate resposibility is the education of children?
Why do an outrageous number of teachers and lawmakers demand and get school choice with no rustle of protest?

Across the country, roughly 10% of students attend a private school while American public school teachers enroll their children at nearly twice that rate, 21.5%. In some cities, it is nearly four times the average rate.

nearly half of the members sent at least one child to private school. Specific figures showed that 41% of representatives in the House and 46% of U.S. senators send or have sent at least one of their children to a private institution. That contrasts with the rest of the country, where only 10% of families send kids to private schools.

THOSE TEACHING AND THOSE MAKING EDUCATION LAW BYPASS THIS VERY DEBATE AND TAKE SCHOOL CHOICE without Reason or anybody else's approval or disapproval

[Religion and Politics, my life]

Should you be allowed to dictate the schooling of my child but I not be able to dictate to your child ? NO
Just look at what teachers who actually teach do and what lawmakers to whom you appeal actually do

TEACHERS
Across the country, roughly 10% of students attend a private school while American public school teachers enroll their children at nearly twice that rate, 21.5%.

LAWMAKERS
41% of representatives in the House and 46% of U.S. senators send or have sent at least one of their children to a private institution. That contrasts with the rest of the country, where only 10% of families send kids to private schools.

Now, let's stipulate to avoid stupid comments like "I don't accept those stats" ready ? IF IF IF those stats were true (yeah, you say they aren't) what would you say then. THis is stipulation , the great clarifier. Like asking Biden "so you never took traitorous millions from our country's enemies but if a President did would you approve a death penalty for that?" SEE THE VALUE 🙂

[Religion and Politics, my life]

okay, we already have home schooling, private schools, and public schools. In that set of possibilities
"the average cost of educating a child in public school is 58% more than private school. Beyond saving money and helping children, school choice creates competition that causes public schools to improve."

[Edmund Burke's Hastings spy]

AND NOBODY CARES ,HMMMMMMMM
$18,069 PER STUDENT FOR SCHOOLING IN DC