Matt Ridley: Why Did Anthony Fauci et al. Suppress the Lab Leak Theory?

A recent House committee investigation exposed political interference when it came to figuring out the origins of COVID. But why?

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Matt Ridley: Why Did Anthony Fauci et al. Suppress the Lab Leak Theory?

This is the audio version of The Reason Livestream, which takes place every Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern.

A recent House of Representatives committee report entitled "The Proximal Origin of a Cover-Up" exposes how Anthony Fauci and other leading government officials pressured researchers and the media into dismissing the COVID lab leak theory.

Acclaimed science writer Matt Ridley, co-author with Alina Chan of Viral: The Search for Origin of Covid-19, explains how the interference played out and why it matters to the future of medicine, politics, and an open society.

Comments

[Chumby]

The supposed leak from a lab Fauci was helping to fund? Yeah, I wonder too. A mystery for sure.

[Jerryskids]

I'm pretty sure it's Trump's fault.

[MWAocdoc]

It happened on Trump’s watch. He either knew or should have known about what dangerous experiments the Centers for Disease Control was funding in China. And when it blew up in all their faces, he should have caused an investigation into it resulting in official heads rolling. Instead, he stood on a stage with Fauci and others looking clueless, ineffective and comical as they rolled out “Fifteen Days to Flatten the Curve.”

[JesseAz]

Obama signed a law banning gain of research. Fauci and his unit had the fact they were still funding it. How is that trumps fault? The president can't micromanage every budget and department.

[MWAocdoc]

Of course not. A manager manages the managers who report to him and they manage their reports. An effective manager knows within a few weeks of taking over what everyone in the organization is doing including the problem spots. An effective manager focuses attention on the shining stars to reward them and on the problem areas looking for ways to improve them or head off looming disasters. It's not that hard - I've even done it myself. Obviously even a good manager can miss something important, having to switch modes to putting out fires. Trump was not a good manager. His cabinet secretaries feared or scorned him and manipulated him. When the biggest fire in recent history broke out he remained clueless and did almost nothing to put out the fire. You can make excuses but the bottom line remains the same. The very least we should be able to expect from a President of the United States is that they be effective managers!

[Cyto]

That is a really unfair take.

I mean, the conclusion might not be wrong… Trump might be a terrible manager.

But “An effective manager knows within a few weeks of taking over what everyone in the organization is doing including the problem spots.”

Really?

There are almost 3 million federal employees. God only knows how many contractors.

There is zero chance that Biden or Trump or Obama even know a majority of the big picture of what the federal government is doing. Heck, even having a handle on everything that a single department is up to would be a gargantuan task. Even a small department like the Bureau of Land Management. But the DOJ? How are you going to know every little abuse in that behemout?

Heck, even “name every office with more than 100 employees” would be beyond the capabilities of a single person.

[MWAocdoc]

Here's the chain of command: POTUS (Trump) = Secretary of HHS (Alex Azar) = National Institutes of Health (Collins) = NIAID (Fauci). Do you really think Trump shouldn't have been expected to demand summary reports from Azar, who should have demanded summary reports from Collins about the activities under the purview of the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases? If so, you have a very different view of the role and function of a Chief Executive Officer.

[NOYB2]

Do you really think Trump shouldn’t have been expected to demand summary reports from Azar, who should have demanded summary reports from Collins about the activities under the purview of the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases?

He doubtlessly got lots of reports.

Do you think any of them said "we're conducting illegal gain of function research in a poorly equipped lab in China, risking a global pandemic"?

Fauci denied any gain of function research even in his congressional testimony, under oath!

[MWAocdoc]

I don't know. Do you? Don't you think someone should find out?

[NOYB2]

Are you effing kidding? The question was rhetorical.

As I pointed out in the next sentence: Fauci even lied to Congress!

[Brett Bellmore]

Look, has it escaped your attention that people in the chain of command were actually lying to him about what was going on?

[MWAocdoc]

No, it has not escaped my attention. That's what the article is about. My question is not "Why did Fauci lie?" My question is, "Why didn't Trump do anything about it after everyone else knew Fauci lied?"

[MWAocdoc]

Since Obama signed an order banning or pausing "gain-of-function" virus research funding, he certainly DID know about it. Since it was a hot-button item during his predecessor's administration, Trump certainly SHOULD have known about it and looked into it specially as a priority when he took office. Hindsight is always twenty-twenty, I suppose, but Trump clearly was NOT up to the task of managing a large, complex bureaucracy which was my original point.

[NOYB2]

Why would this have been a priority for Trump? It's just one obscure area of research among many.

But, hey, since you are such a deeply knowledgeable person, such an effective and experienced manager, and claim to be a libertarian/conservative, why don't YOU run for president?

[MWAocdoc]

If you want to nominate me at the convention go right ahead! I will be in absentia but I can claim to have gotten 5% in a three-way race against the Dean of the Texas Senate and the Republican winner who ousted him. I was also elected School Board Trustee, so one of the few Libertarians in history who actually got elected to anything - in a landslide, by the way ...????

[NOYB2]

You are the one who claims competence, so you need to do the work to convince others.

Since you have run for public office, we can judge your level of success by the level of political office you managed to reach.

[Rufus The Monocled]

What were the available options for Trump once he knew Fauci was lying? Fire Fauci? The media and the disciples of Fauci would have had an epic temper tantrum. How do you push back on medical-technocrats (including Collins) who have honed their deceptive skills over decades? Trump never had a chance.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Trump was too scared to fire Dr. Fauci?

That's your argument?

[Truthfulness]

@ObviouslyNotSpam

What else could Trump have done? It's not like he knew anything about the cover-up.

[C. S. P. Schofield]

“ 3 million federal employees.‘

There’s your problem right there.

[Johnathan Galt]

Presidents are not "managers" over every bureaucracy, dolt. They aren't aware of every crime being committed.

[MWAocdoc]

And no one said that, certainly not me. But if it comforts you to dismiss me as a dolt, knock yourself out.

[NOYB2]

An effective manager knows within a few weeks of taking over what everyone in the organization is doing including the problem spots

The federal bureaucracy is a vast, corrupt, inefficient organization that functions nothing like a private company. Nobody can manage it effectively.

It’s not that hard – I’ve even done it myself.

And that's why you are a billionaire and president, right?

[MWAocdoc]

I was a successful manager because I tried. Trump was not a successful manager because he was a narcissistic blowhard who didn't even try. But I know I can't convince you of the massive failure of your hero despite the many plainly obvious facts you have to dismiss in order to continue to worship him.

[NOYB2]

But I know I can’t convince you of the massive failure of your hero despite the many plainly obvious facts you have to dismiss in order to continue to worship him.

Trump isn't my "hero". But he has been objectively very successful, both in business and in politics. And during his time as president, he accomplished a lot of things that I care about. I would prefer DeSantis as a candidate to Trump, but I keep an open mind.

I was a successful manager because I tried.

I seriously doubt that, given the way you conduct yourself here, and given that the highest office you were elected to was school board.

And your ideas of what politicians can and cannot accomplish and how government works show that you are ignorant of how government functions.

[MWAocdoc]

"I'm a doctor, not a politician" - Scottie

[wagnert in atlanta]

Um. Scottie was the chief engineer. McCoy -- "Bones" was the doctor.

[Fetterman's Hump]

Thank God we have an effective manager now!

[wagnert in atlanta]

You forgot the "/s."

[Mother's Lament]

"Obama signed a law banning gain of research. Fauci and his unit had the fact they were still funding it."

I criticize Obama a lot but this needs to be emphasized. Not only did he ban it but his administration directly forbid Fauci from doing it, and that's why he and the DoD snuck it overseas.

You're also right in that the deep state, with the help of the establishment GOP, were participating in an active coup against Trump and kept him in the dark on as much as they could.

However, MWAocdoc is right about Trump, in a buck stops here manner. Ultimately Trump bears the responsibility.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Trump got rolled by the whole Covid scam and still wants to brag about "vaccines" that don't work. Still a far better president than any other in my lifetime.

[KerryB]

IMO that title would go to Clinton. Only time in my lifetime we had a balanced budget. And got a BJ in the oval office too.

[Brett Bellmore]

No, we didn't have a balanced budget during Clinton's time in office, unless you use accounting practices that will get you jail in the private sector.

And even getting that close to a balanced budget required the major parties to be practically at war with each other over the impeachment of the President, so that they couldn't agree on exactly how to increase spending enough to prevent a balanced budget. Which can't happen today, because they've put enough federal spending on autopilot that even if Congress never met again, we'd continue to have deficits.

[swillfredo pareto]

IMO that title would go to Clinton. Only time in my lifetime we had a balanced budget.

Unless you were born before 1954, 1995 was the first time in your lifetime there was a Republican-led House of Representatives. The budget starts in the House. You can argue whether Clinton gets partial credit, but it took him less than two years to undo 40 years of institutional control. Clinton's fuckup in Mogadishu was only surpassed by Biden's fuckup in Afghanistan in the final chapter on how to humiliate a US President.

[MWAocdoc]

There was never a balanced budget even under Clinton. During one year out of his eight in the White House the Treasury received a huge windfall in unanticipated revenues from the dotcom bubble that shortly afterwards burst. Even during that one year when revenues briefly exceeded discretionary spending, the federal debt continued to climb due to overall federal spending continuing to exceed total revenues.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

That may be true, but if we're going to credit/blame presidents for deficits, don't we have to credit Clinton for getting closer to "the goal" than anyone else in modern history?

Given the actually low stakes here, I'm happy to do that (incidentally, I also would have been happy to see Clinton convicted by the Senate in his impeachment trial).

[Johnathan Galt]

Nope. Demunists funded the bio weapon for over 20 years, many illegally, and outsourcing the development to our enemies. The most likely explanation for the "release" is that Demunists arranged it to hurt Trump and win an election.

You abusive totalitarians just love to blame victims for your heinous crimes.

[MWAocdoc]

Ha hahaha ha! "Poor Trump was a victim!" The only thing Trump is a victim of is his own narcissism and incompetence.

[Mother's Lament]

"Demunists arranged it to hurt Trump and win an election. You abusive totalitarians just love to blame victims for your heinous crimes."

That's me, a totalitarian Never-Trumper. Just call me Jeffy Jr.

Now tell Nardz he's a Zelensky simp and Jesse he's a Soros fan.

[B G]

Obama banned it, but trump reversed the ban on advice from Fauci.

If Fauci's testimony to congress was at all truthful, the ban was irrelevant anyway because according to him "gain of function" research isn't even a thing that exists (just check the latest edition of the Newspeak Dictionary...), and Fauci was funding EcoHealth to hire China to do that other kind of research where they take a virus from nature and make it able to infect human tissues, then came up with a memo from the CEO of EcoHealth as proof that NIH wasn't funding any research in Wuhan; he would've got away with it if the meddling kids at NIH hadn't released a letter disclosing what they had actually paid out a week after Fauci lied to the US Senate.

[DesigNate]

Trump definitely dropped the ball on Covid, in so much as he should have figured after the previous 3 years they were going to crucify him no matter what he did, so he should have shitcanned Fauci after the whole face mask thing.

But how was he supposed to know that Fauci was hiding the fact that he was fuming GoF in China. I doubt even Obama knew, and it definitely started while he was still in office.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Trump definitely dropped the ball on Covid, in so much as he should have figured after the previous 3 years they were going to crucify him no matter what he did, so he should have shitcanned Fauci after the whole face mask thing.

I don't disagree, but that just ties back to how lazy of a President he really was. He never got the fact that being President is not nearly the same as running a brand or a business, and his obtuseness at how much the bureaucracy was slow-walking everything was particularly inexcusable.

[IceTrey]

He couldn't have fired Fauci.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Because there would have been mean tweets?

[Truthfulness]

What part of his message do you fail to comprehend?

[Minadin]

He should have shitcanned Fauci on Jan 21, 2017.

[MWAocdoc]

I realize that this is all Monday morning quarterbacking, but there is a lesson to be learned from this. Trump did not have to know the details of the hidden gain of function experiment funded by one of his departments. He did have to make it clear to his cabinet secretaries that he wanted THEM to look into any potential problem areas. He should have made it his business to find out in general what those departments did, compare their activities to his own policy goals, spot areas for future action - perhaps Executive Orders - and insist that reports come back to him from the Secretaries concerning reports from THEIR senior department heads. To make a long story short, if someone down the chain of command was hiding something you might not be able to spot the deception; but when it blows up in your face you by god better launch an investigation, find out where the deception occurred and who failed to spot it who was directly in charge and then take effective action to correct the failure and put out the fire. Do you see ANY indication that Trump did, or was even capable of, doing ANY of that?

[Junkmailfolder]

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree on this specific instance.

If GoF was indeed illegal in the US, which seems to be the conclusion, then you're arguing that Trump should have found what equates to fraud in his company by asking his management team to look for fraud. And it would have to be a very specific type of fraud for them to have any real chance of finding it. And assuming the very people he was relying on weren't in on it.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Fauci changed the definition of GOF and to this day claims that the Wuhan research wasn't GOF. Rand Paul has completely destroyed his argument but nobody seems to care. The question in the title of this article is pretty silly. Fauci and his cohorts lied to cover their own asses. It's self evident.

[MWAocdoc]

Not quite. He should have LOOKED for fraud in the bureaucracy he took responsibility for. There is no guarantee that any CEO will find problems, but if you don't LOOK there is zero chance of finding it. In this particular instance that you find exceptional, he didn't even look AFTER there was clear, public evidence of fraud in his administration less than four management levels down! The Wuhan Virology researchers published their research a year before the pandemic. When the pandemic hit, major names in virology contacted Fauci and Collins about their concerns. Fauci convinced them to pooh-pooh the "lab leak theory" and the hit piece was published shortly after that. "The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2" came out in "Nature Medicine" on March 17, 2020, one day after Trump stood cluelessly on a stage next to Fauci holding a sign reading '15 days to slow the spread.' If that isn't enough to raise red flags that you have a serious problem, what is?

[Johnathan Galt]

That quite possibly qualifies as the dumbest post on the internet today. Becoming President does not grant you omniscient into every malfeasance carried out by government in the past 30 years, nor make you aware of which people are actively lying to you to hurt you politically.

[MWAocdoc]

You are unquestionably an expert on dumb posts.

[Set Us Up The Chipper]

Galt is right your posts are entirely unreasonable.

[MWAocdoc]

Your silly opinion is noted. Obviously you can’t refute me so all you got is name-calling. Gofer it!

[Sevo]

"It happened on Trump’s watch. He either knew or should have known about what dangerous experiments the Centers for Disease Control was funding in China..."

I'm sure Fauci and company were more than forthcoming regarding their work, right?
You're a real laugh riot.

[MWAocdoc]

I already agreed that even a good manager or President might not be aware of a particular problem in her organization. But keep ignoring the fact that Trump took NO action even after it blew up in his face! That lets you keep worshiping Trump while ignoring the other half of the disaster.

[Jay57]

By your logic, Obama, Trump and Biden all should have known. But you just wanted an opportunity to bash Trump instead of placing the blame where it belongs, which is with Fauci.

[MWAocdoc]

Not true. I would like to see Fauci charged for organizing a coverup and lying to Congress. If any of his other nefarious dealings were criminal, I'd like to see him charged for that too. Obama and Biden did know. Obama took action but failed to follow up. Biden clearly knew and has ignored it so far.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

If everyone lied to him, which they almost certainly did, how the hell was he supposed to know?

[Pear Satirical]

It's weird, like Al Capone opposing going after organized crime weird.

[MD from Idaho]

I don't understand why so many readers of this site are so abysmally embarrassingly bad at thinking.

Fauci wasn't funding anything. That's government funding.

It's a theory just like gravity being powered by gravitrons is a theory. If you insist "COVID came from a lab", that means you've disproven every other theory of it's origin. I promise that you, average internet dumbfuck, has not done that.

[freedomwriter]

LOL. Good one!

Trust the experts they tell us over and over again. If you lined up 100 people, 80ish would say they do not trust the government. But introduce a pandemic or war or whatever crisis and suddenly the number flips and those same 80 or almost all of them suddenly trust the government. We are a doomed species.

[Don't look at me!]

Because Fauci is the modern day Josef Mengele.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Fauci was more like Mengele during the AIDS crisis, and more like Lysenko during COVID.

[MWAocdoc]

Why did Fauci conspire with others to suppress awareness of a horribly dangerous and illegally funded experiment that went horribly wrong and caused the worst pandemic since the Spanish Flu over a hundred years ago that ought to have cost them their careers, their high government positions, and their freedom? Is this a serious question or are you being sarcastic here?

[JFree]

horribly dangerous and illegally funded experiment that went horribly wrong

A lot of stuff to unpack in that sentence.

Yeah I’ll guess that gain of function research is dangerous. Presumably that is the point. Idk.

Illegally funded? Probably not. That sort of research became legal again in 2017. Maybe all them DC lawyers can investigate but they clearly aren’t since no one is even admitting it’s legal right now. So making it illegal tomorrow isn't on the table.

As for experiment that went wrong. That is not being investigated. That story is in China -with different people than Fauci – with different articles that might involve the suppression – and which a critter committee is not remotely capable/competent to investigate. Ridley’s co-author says the most likely lab leak explanation there is sloppy lab safety not an experiment gone wrong. Either way -seems like an answer would be useful but won’t happen.

This looks to me like everyone is deliberately shooting at the wrong target. DC m.o. Like the real cover up is that critters don’t want to investigate $2 trillion in fraudulent spending and/or public health incompetence. So let’s point to them yellow Chinee.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I guess it doesn’t matter to you that gain of function was banned.

Whatever it takes to preserve your delusions I guess.

[JFree]

The reason you believe things that are bullshit is because you are incapable of believing things that are true:

From NIH - Dec 2017 - NIH Lifts Funding Pause on Gain-of-Function Research

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

What's fascinating here is they seem to have a clear definition of Gain of Function, whereas that cretin on the Lex Friedman show didn't seem to have one, and even waved his eye glasses about saying, "I mean like THIS is gain of function so..."

[R Mac]

Yeah, Jfree works for corporate media, or maybe in government communicating with corporate media.

I wonder if I can figure out who he/she is? Or more likely who he works for.

[JFree]

I work for the Area 51 Institute of Virulent Memetics. The mission is simply to plant memes in your head that are contagious and, ultimately, fatal to all rational thought. Some people are more susceptible to that. Others require gain-of-function research which is being funded by Bill Gates, the Illuminati, and important yet unnamed donors from the Davos Conferences.

You and your fellow swarm of useful idiots don't require any of that gain-of-function research though I have planted other memes in your head that require you to construct elaborate narratives that tip way over into conspiracy thinking. Rendering you useless in even trying to understand or explain anything to anyone. All of which are living in your head rent-free and thus which can not be evicted for nonpayment of rent.

Which is why we (a huge number of 'we' - all unnamed and anonymous though some smoke cigarettes and are only seen in silhouette) aren't trying to cover anything up. So it doesn't matter what you think or say in response to what you may believe or what I have just told you. You've already been shushed.

[Sevo]

Didn't know chicken littles could be gainfully employed

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

I just figured you for some dork Ho worked in a terrible office. Like where atom Hs is worked at the beginning of ‘Joe vs, the Volcano’.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Also, we’re making grand assumptions here that… presuming COVID-19 was a result of a GOF trial/experiment shoddily done, that the research began the day after the GOF moratorium was lifted. You may believe that, but I don’t.

[JFree]

I'm pretty sure China never had a pause on their own gain of function research. But gotta ask those questions to China not DC. That's not happening.

Even if there are questions for DC, it would involve stuff like why were the US/UK reps for the WHO trip to China such tools? Again, not being asked.

[MWAocdoc]

Your attempt at deflection is pretty pathetic. This isn't about whether the pandemic was caused by a lab leak or from eating bats nearby in one huge coincidence. This is about whether Fauci conspired with others to suppress the theory and lied to Congress about it. I have no doubt that the Wuhan Lab virologists could have created the COVID-19 virus without any funding from Fauci, and leaked it through inadequate precautions to the general public. I have no doubt that Chicom heavy-handedness and innate secrecy hindered the recognition of the catastrophe and prevented the adequate response to it. I have no doubt that the Chicoms effectively eliminated any evidence and prevented potential investigations into what happened and that there is nothing we can do about it now except flail punitively and hurl invective in their general direction. All of that is irrelevant to whether Fauci deserves to have his reputation and legacy spoiled and perhaps have criminal charges filed against him.

[JFree]

All of that is irrelevant to whether Fauci deserves to have his reputation and legacy spoiled and perhaps have criminal charges filed against him.

Seems to me like you are busy designing and constructing the scaffold - while not really giving a shit about the actual charges and evidence re the trial. He's guilty of some hanging offense so let's get on with it.

It's just a shame imo that we are not going to do one damn thing about trying to find out anything about what actually happened with covid. Nothing. This is about which party should control Facebook and ensuring that no one can ever distinguish between conspiracies and reality. (As the Atlantic expresses better than I):

Yet the fact that two of the nine agencies nonetheless believe that “a laboratory-associated incident” of any kind is the most likely cause of the first human infection has been taken as a sign that all lab-leak scenarios are still on the table. Thus Republicans in Congress can rail against Facebook for removing posts about the “lab-leak theory,” while ignoring the fact that the platform’s rules only ever prohibited one particular and largely discredited idea, that SARS-CoV-2 was “man-made or manufactured.”

I don't even know whether that Atlantic assertion - that lab-engineered is discredited - is true either. But that's clearly not the purpose of the investigation even though it should be and the investigators say that that is the purpose.

This whole thing is just yet more DeRp bullshit. A meta argument about media as a way of avoiding actual self-governance and accountability.

[MWAocdoc]

Your attempt to spin the issue here fails on several counts: The lab leak theory was brought to Collins and Fauci by the world's greatest virologists and official scientists, not DeRp partisans. Fauci collaborated with them to write an urgent letter dismissing the lab leak theory. The worried scientists have all in one way or another specifically admitted since then that the lab leak theory was highly dangerous to international relations with China, and that they were desperately looking for evidence to contradict it. They looked at the available evidence, claimed that "lazy" virologists would not have used a random bat virus to perform gain-of-function experiments on, ignored the article published about a year before by the Wuhan virologists that they had in fact successfully performed gain-of-function experiments on the specific horseshoe bat virus that matched the COVID-19 viral genome 96% except for the the two gain-of-function sequences that they inserted in the experiment, claimed that a natural evolution of that same virus passing from the horseshoe bats several hundred miles away through pangolins somehow finding its way to humans in Wuhan next door to the virology lab where that same virus had been produced was the most likely explanation and claimed that the horrible possibility of a leak from that lab - the explanation that they were all desperately trying to disprove in the most unscientific way possible - was extremely improbable! Fauci then used that hit piece as his excuse to suppress public discussion of two still-viable theories and casting anyone who still thought the lab leak theory should be investigated as a conspiracy theorist crank. And no, it's not just DeRp bullshit! Just as a discussion of whether the possible scientific information to be gained from gain-of-function experiments justifies the high risk involved is still viable; a discussion of whether the COVID-19 pandemic originated in a leak from a gain-of-function experiment in Wuhan is pertinent to that ongoing political consideration.

[JFree]

Fauci collaborated with them to write an urgent letter dismissing the lab leak theory...admitted since then that the lab leak theory was highly dangerous to international relations with China, and that they were desperately looking for evidence to contradict it.

Please cite the specific evidence for that in the unredacted emails. Not their view that publicizing any origins story contrary to the market narrative was dangerous to relations because yes they clearly believed that. And were correct about that too since that was also the point of the conspiracy theories about the lab - to undermine relations with China.

But your hints about 'dismissing' the lab theory. Because what actually happened was that a)Fauci first told them to go to the FBI with any evidence about that and then b)when there was no evidence of that caliber, they all had a discussion attempting to DISPROVE the lab-engineering hypothesis - not to dismiss it. That is the way the scientific method works.

Specifically - the first hypothesis was in the form of 'If 'furin cleavage', then virus must have been engineered because it can't exist in nature'. Which was disproven by them when they saw the pangolin research. ie it could exist in nature, therefore hypothesis is disproven.

Scientifically, there is nothing wrong with this approach at all. Let me repeat - this is how the scientific method works. Even if you moronic anti-science R's find it easy to spin that as something else.

What is entirely missing from those discussions is any public health focus re what needs investigating. Specifically, where are the infected animals from the Wuhan market? That was clearly the Chinese explanation and if humans got the virus from animals in the market then where are those animals. That also happens to be the way you undermine a Chinese narrative that may be false (or sloppy). And maybe also prove that Americans understand how to do public health. And having critters investigate that might provide evidence that critters give a shit about trying to understand what happened with covid.

[MWAocdoc]

JFree: "Please cite the specific evidence for that in the unredacted emails."

"Spike - The Virus vs the People, The Inside Story," by Jeremy Farrar

[Johnathan Galt]

Not a belief. A fact. They now have the documentation that the first three "patient zeros" were from the Wuhan lab working on this virus.

Your personal beliefs are irrelevant. Facts don't care about your feelings.

[MWAocdoc]

There is still some doubt that the pandemic was caused by a leak from the lab conducting gain of function experiments with the virus that caused the pandemic. There is NO doubt any more that Fauci and Collins conspired with other experts to cover up the possibility that the virus leaked from the Wuhan lab and that the experiment was funded by Fauci through a cutout. Whether you believe the pandemic was caused by a lab leak or not is just as irrelevant as whether I believe that the pandemic was caused by a lab leak or not. The facts prove that Fauci conspired with other experts to fabricate a false, unscientific statement denying the possibility in contradiction of the available evidence, lied to Congress about it and suppressed public discussion of the theory.

[Johnathan Galt]

You've literally just provided proof it was illegally funded - because they never actually paused funding the GoF work. Instead, Fauci lied to Congress about the nature of the work being done.

Too, the dozens of Democrat mega donors did not blink an eye nor slow their payments while it was illegal.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

Fauci should die in prison.

[R Mac]

“A lot of stuff to unpack in that sentence.”

Jfree works in corporate media.

[Chumby]

Or his hobby involves getting packed and unpacked.

[MWAocdoc]

DId you actually read the Congressional Committee report? Although I realize that it’s at least partially partisan, the facts in support are pretty convincing. During the ban Fauci arranged for funding a third party to arrange for dangerous research to be done by the second party at a lab outside the ban area. In other settings this is known as using a cutout to reduce the risk of tracing the activity back to you. It is not something that a person with nothing to hide usually does. The danger of the experiment requires Level 4 containment; it appears that the Wuhan Lab’s containment was equivalent to Level 2 and 3 but the “cutout” failed to ensure proper precautions. You seem to be ignoring the concept that the reason for the “pause” was the potential for disaster from that kind of research. A prudent official scientist would not have been looking for ways to continue the dangerous experiments without being discovered. The “cutout” failed to submit a progress report required by the “contract” – a clear indication of “mens rea” – contributing to deception. When the pandemic first started, Fauci’s colleagues and fellow experts almost immediately put two and two together – the scientific report published by Wuhan virologists in a scientific journal a year earlier – and worried that the pandemic started with a leak from the lab there. Fauci and Collins immediately lined up worried scientists to try to suppress the story and discredit skeptics. None of that may be criminal, but all of it should have resulted in at least the firing of Collins and Fauci. And Trump was clearly unaware of even the facts that even I knew at the time.

[JFree]

If true, then this is about gain of function research and conflicts of interest with scientists dependent on NIH grants.

Which is fine. But that isn’t either specifically COVID lab leak or holding government accountable to the COVID stuff they did. Why isn't COVID the focus?

[MWAocdoc]

The focus of what? As you pointed out, how the pandemic started is a matter for investigation of the Chicoms. Why government officials commissioned, and official scientists published, a lie masquerading as a professional scientific opinion; why Fauci lied to Congress about it; why Fauci thought it was important to suppress lab leak theories from the media and try to cast discussion about it as nutty conspiracy theories when he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they might be true; THOSE are important questions that hit close to home and CAN be investigated, possibly leading to punishment of the culprits.

[Johnathan Galt]

Demunists funded it for over 20 years (not just the government at Fauci's behest an lying to Congress about it while it was illegal, but also dozens of Democrat mega donors who poured millions into it every year). Such people (George Soros, Bill Gates, many many others) expect a return on their investment.

Their is only one conceivable used for a disease almost universally infectious yet barely lethal - political terrorism. Because this is true, the most likely explanation for the release of the bio weapon is that Democrats purposely engineered it - to win an election. 8 million dead to satisfy their egos. But, either way, they are guilty for having funded it.

[MWAocdoc]

False. There are several good reasons to do fundamental research - even dangerous experiments - that have no know pragmatic purpose. The most obvious one is that doing the experiment can tell you if it can be done - and might be done - by your enemies. Related to that is that you can use the successful result to test possible countermeasures to defend yourself if an enemy does use it as a weapon against you some day. Also, doing fundamental research frequently DOES lead to useful inventions as spin-offs or sometimes sparking new ideas in unrelated disciplines. I never considered the lab leak theory to be crazy conspiracy fodder, but your conspiracy theory that the DNC engineered COVID-19 to kill millions of people in order to win an election takes the cake!

[Fetterman's Hump]

"Yeah I’ll guess that gain of function research is dangerous."

What is the point of GofF research? Presumably, it is done so that we can have a jump start on a vaccine in the off-chance that the artificial function happens naturally. I have little faith in front-running nature, it just seems to be a very low probability investment. Given that lab leaks with viruses are near certainties the danger far outweighs the benefits.

[MWAocdoc]

In this particular case Wellcome Trust and Moderna did in fact use early genetic sequencing to get a jump start on the COVID-19 vaccine. Also, DARPA emergency-funded a rapid-production technology that produced those vaccines in a couple of months instead of the older method's six months to a year.

[Johnathan Galt]

Probably because he did not want to be executed (after a fair trial) for his role in the release of a bio weapon he oversaw the development of.

[MWAocdoc]

Wow! I wonder why no one else has thought of that possibility! 🙂

[buybuydandavis]

"Is this a serious question or are you being sarcastic here?"

Establishment journalism theater always includes Faux Opposition asking the "tough questions".

Meanwhile, everyone knows why: Fauci was doing his best to conceal his mass murder.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Whenever you are being told you can’t question something, you should realize you are being conned.

[Homer Thompson]

the greatest example of government incompetence and duplicity in US history

[Mike Laursen]

The US is well over 200 years old. Are you sure about that?

Native Americans, for one, would likely consider our Indian treaties as the height of duplicity.

[Chumby]

So would Ben & Jerry.*

* except when it applies to their property

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Commies are the most vicious hypocrites of all.

[Public Entelectual]

What about the Commie lizard people ?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv93p/mat?hew-coleman-david-icke-inspired

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Do you want to talk about all the trannies who have murdered people you miserable shit?

[Public Entelectual]

Were you hatched from one of Gordon Gekko's addled eggs?

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

We’re you squeezed out of some Down’s Syndrome riddled whore?

[Public Entelectual]

Is Down's syndrome as contagious as vulgarity?

[Minadin]

I would provide a cite, but you don't click on the links.

[Mike Laursen]

Please, provide a cite that suppression of the lab leak theory was “the greatest example of government incompetence and duplicity in US history”. I promise I’ll click on whatever link you provide.

Meanwhile, here’s a link about broken Indian treaties. Please click on it and read it:

https://www.history.com/news/native-american-broken-treaties

Elected president in 1828, Jackson spearheaded the Indian Removal Act (1830) through Congress, by which the U.S. government granted land west of the Mississippi River to Native tribes who agreed to give up their homelands.

Though removal was supposed to be voluntary, in practice Jackson used threats of withheld payments and legal and military action to conclude nearly 70 removal treaties over the course of his presidency, opening up some 25 million acres of land in the South to white settlement, and slavery.

Oh, but Fauci is much worse than Jackson, right?

[Mike Laursen]

By the way, what was it? Incompetence or duplicity? Those two accusations work against each other.

[Honest Economics]

For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/

[Adans smith]

Because HE IS SCIENCE.

[edrebber]

A fake virus that was never isolated detected by a test that doesn't test for a virus.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I’d say if it can make you sick it isn’t fake.

[Mike Laursen]

???

[JeremyR]

I caught that "fake" virus three times. The panic about it was overblown (unless you were really old or really fat), but it was real enough.

[Fetterman's Hump]

Had you the jab?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Acclaimed?

Oft-discredited, ethically sketchy, silver-spooned (parasitic) right-winger.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Kill your self, hicklib.

[Sandra (formerly OBL)]

"Oft-discredited" is a curious insult from the legal analyst who made the most embarrassingly idiotic Supreme Court prediction in the history of this comment section.

#DimestoreJeffreyToobin

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

So long as you continue to comply with my political preferences (that's what bigoted right-wing culture war casualties do every day, comply with the rules established by the liberal-libertarian mainstream), I am content.

So carry on, Sandra . . . so far as better Americans permit you to do anything. You get to rant and whimper about it as much as you like, but you will toe that line.

Thank you for your continuing, obsequious compliance, clinger.

[Mother's Lament]

"So long as you continue to comply with my political preferences, I am content."

The mantra of progressive thugs everywhere.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Turn the tide of the culture war -- by somehow making conservative bigotry, superstition, and ignorance more popular in an America that becomes less religious, less rural, less bigoted, less White, and less backward every day -- or recognize that right-wingers, gun nuts, misogynists, anti-abortion absolutists, racists, superstitious gay-bashers, slack-jawed Islamophobes, Republicans, religious kooks, and on-the-spectrum faux libertarians will not be calling any of the shots in America during our lifetimes and beyond.

[Mother's Lament]

Lol, so why are you panicking?

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

He knows h that his bullshit will probably cost him and his fellow travelers their freedom or their lives in the foreseeable future.

He should panic.

[Sevo]

Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.

[Fetterman's Hump]

Try that in a small town...

🙂

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

Arty, we’re probably going to get rid of you and your fellow travelers over your ‘political preferences’ before too long. And there won’t be a fucking thing you worthless beta male, guan averse Lessie’s can do about it.

I mean seriously, have you ever even been in a real fist fight in your entire life? I would wager not.

[Fetterman's Hump]

Kirk, I confess that I admire your unflinching faux-superiority despite all evidence. It is comical.

[MWAocdoc]

"Acclaimed" means only that someone, somewhere lauded him. Meanwhile "oft-discredited" means that someone, somewhere disagreed with him; "ethically sketchy" means that you suspect he might have intentionally done something you don't approve of; "silver-spooned" means that you're envious of his wealth; "parasitic" means that you think he does nothing productive to support himself and lives off the sweat of others; and "right-winger" doesn't mean what you think it does. Sometimes your mouthings are more pathetic than at other times.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Because he's a narcissistic, fabulist asshole.

[Chumby]

But enough about his good qualities.

[CindyF]

Because admitting it was a lab leak (funded by Fauci), was one step away from it admitting it might be a deliberate action on the part of the Chinese in conjunction with some in the U.S. And since so many in the U.S. are owned by the Chinese (politicians and corporate business owners) they couldn't let that happen. Plus, a world-wide pandemic would be perfect for harming our nation's economy and "fortifying" the 2020 election so that President Trump would not be re-elected.

Thus any suggestion that it was a lab leak or even deliberate had to be squashed. Therefore, anyone who spoke of such had their social media posts deleted and sometimes their entire account banned.

[MWAocdoc]

Several things wrong with your analysis. The Wuhan Virology Lab was already doing advanced virology research, conducted by one of the world's best experts on the subject. The gain-of-function research was funded through EcoHealth by the US government, but China already had the means to start a pandemic if they had wanted to. Although it might have been embarrassing to the Chicoms to be blamed for the pandemic, they proved that they are still quite capable of suppressing evidence of their incompetence within their own country without any help from Fauci et al. I also have no doubt that a large percentage of American politicians would love to make political hay out of bashing China whenever the opportunity arises. It still doesn't explain why the Chief Medical Officer of the World Health Organization would improvise a false unscientifically based hit piece on short notice at the "suggestion" of Collins and Fauci to discredit "conspiracy theories" about the lab origin of Wuhan Flu. This was purely a coverup by "pre-eminent" virologists caught with their hands in the cookie jar trying to prevent damage to their research grants, their reputations, their privileged positions and, possibly, criminal investigations.

[Cyto]

He isn't talking about "they did it on purpose" as a "that is what happened" scenario, but rather "if you allow people to know that we created this virus with the Chinese, people are going to immediately start saying it was an intentional release"

Remember, this was a time where even saying "Wuhan flu" was considered racist and xenophobic.... Not because of any inherent truth to that, but due to a deep desire to protect the image of China.

Getting caught doing illegal research that resulted in a worldwide pandemic and !millions of deaths is never going to be an attractive option. So I would assume that those involved would be highly motivated to prevent that knowledge from getting out.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

"Spanish" Flu...

That's why. It's also why the WHO also tried to "protect" South Africa, Brazil, India and...Kent.

Surprisingly, countries (and, er, boroughs) tend not to enjoy being associated with deadly pandemic strains.

[Truthfulness]

There's nothing that disproves the suggestion that the Spanish flu wasn't from Spain, despite theories claiming otherwise. On the other hand, we found the first three individuals who caught COVID, which were scientists at Wuhan. The name is justified.

Maybe WHO shouldn't be so quick to be so defensive as to where the flu originated. And neither should any person from a specific location.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

That whole debate is a tempest in a teapot. Whether it's definitively proven it came from Spain is irrelevant. Had it been definitively proven to have come from Eretria, it would have been called the Eretria Flu. The whole woke revisionist bullshit is bullshit.

[Johnathan Galt]

It's actually more likely that in their hatred of Trump Democrats betrayed their Chinese partners in releasing the bio weapon. China, if they did it, faced the possibility of global thermonuclear war over the use of WMDs.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

"lab leak" != "bio weapon" (unless you're a Trumper).

[Truthfulness]

Disease leaks out of a lab can be intentional, you know.

[Ann in L.A.]

Why? 1) because he funded it and 2) he loved gain-of-function research, understood the risks, and liked them!

He said so, in writing, in a published journal article in 2012:

Fauci AS. "Research on highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus: the way forward." mBio. 2012 Nov 1;3(5):e00359-12. ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.GOV/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/ ):

[begin quote] The influenza virus research community is to be commended for implementing a voluntary moratorium on “gain-of-function” experiments related to the transmissibility of highly pathogenic H5N1 influenza virus.

[...] In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic?

[...] Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks. [end quote]

[MWAocdoc]

Yeah, what's the loss of a few million grandmothers with "Science" on the line?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

It is certainly a mystery. I guess it happened, it was worse than we said, but why... oh why? Hmm. Perhaps we can link to Rachel Maddow for some insight.

[JeremyR]

The real question is why he's not in jail.

[Chumby]

Or subject to hundreds of thousands of individual civil lawsuits.

[Minadin]

Repeal the 8th Amendment and bring back Pillory.

[Public Entelectual]

And her husband, Herjury.

[sadietomzs]

I guess it doesn’t matter to you that gain of function was banned.

[MWAocdoc]

Gain of function was not banned. Funding gain of function was "banned" temporarily - or "paused" - to look into the risks. There is no such thing as scientific research without risk. The danger of leaks from labs with even the highest level of containment is real but potentially manageable. In any event the Chinese had a high level of expertise and technology already in Wuhan, were already conducting high-risk gain-of-function research there, and were not covered by any "bans."

[Cyto]

2 observations...

1 "it was not banned.... It was banned temporarily"

2. Regardless of China's ability to perform this work without help from the US, the desire to conceal any involvement remains. China happily promulgated the "bats at a wet market" story for the same reason. Nobody wants "caused a worldwide pandemic costing trillions of dollars and millions of lives" on their resume.

[Johnathan Galt]

During the temporary ban - it was banned, Cletus. Yet Fauci lied to Congress to get funding anyway. And, the dozens of Democrat mega donors also continued to donate illegally. They undoubtedly knew exactly what they were funding.

[Minadin]

I doubt they knew *exactly* what they were funding. Most congresspeople and Democrats are borderline retards.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

During the temporary ban – it was banned, Cletus.

Cyto knows this which is why he produced item 1 in quotes.

[CE]

It just happened to start in the city with the coronavirus lab that was studying how to make coronaviruses more deadly. Could have started anywhere, really.

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[Johnathan Galt]

“Why Did Anthony Fauci et al. Suppress the Lab Leak Theory?”

Because they don’t want to face Hague trials for crimes against humanity.

[Sevo]

Folks, he worked for the government; fuck up as a government employee and kill a couple of million people world -wide and they slap your wrist.
He had nothing to worry about.

[CE]

That's not too surprising that people would defend him despite the body count. Progressives care about feelings, not statistics. And they feel he was trying to keep us all safe.

But I'm surprised they gave him a free pass for the puppy torture experiments. That should hurt their feelings plenty.

[Brian]

Because ass tacos.

[Rufus The Monocled]

Fauci is worse than Nicole.

[CE]

Why? Because if the (obvious) lab leak theory is true, then people might start asking why the USA is funding the lab, and what that funding was meant to accomplish, and who ended up killing more people than literal Hitler.

[MWAocdoc]

I have been gradually working my way through the original documents referenced in the Congressional Committee report "Proximal Cause of a Cover-Up" and the references within those citations and it turns out that Sir Jeremy Farrar of the Wellcome Trust and Chief Scientist of the World Health Organization wrote a book titled "Spike" about his part in the unfolding COVID-19 pandemic. You can click the link to open a preview of the book at Amazon and, quite frankly, it raised the hair on the back of my neck!

https://www.amazon.com/Spike/dp/1788169220/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20ANIWM3WW2BX&keywords=spike+jeremy+farrar&qid=1690151988&sprefix=spike+jeremy+farra%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1&asin=B08X671H6M&revisionId=5f66ec88&format=1&depth=1&tag=reasonmagazinea-20

It seems unbelievable to me that he still seems to think that COVID-19 arose totally in nature and jumped to humans directly from bats.

[MWAocdoc]

I have read further into "Spike" and Farrar states unequivocally that, although he was very suspicious that the lab leak theory was plausible, it was also politically dangerous and that he and the others were struggling to find a way to prove the natural origin of the COVID-19 virus. Confirmation bias can go both ways and as a top scientist himself, Farrar should have know that looking for confirmation of a natural source theory is just as unscientific as trying to confirm the lab leak theory. In any event the best that even the worried experts struggling to disprove their own worst fears could come up with was that the natural origin of COVID-19 was not impossible, was the most likely theory, and that "lazy virologists" were unlikely to have picked a random bat virus to conduct gain-of-function experiments on. This is a far cry from disproving the lab leak theory, but Fauci and others heaped scorn on the "conspiracy theorists" and took active measures to suppress discussion of a clearly viable theory, probably for a combination of international relations and personal liability reasons.

[JFree]

Confirmation bias can go both ways and as a top scientist himself, Farrar should have know that looking for confirmation of a natural source theory is just as unscientific as trying to confirm the lab leak theory.

There are certainly problems about the way the final article is concluded - but the redacted emails show that they were trying to DISPROVE the lab leak theory in their discussions. That is exactly how the discussions should work - and it is precisely how a political spin on that would lead to 'they are SUPPRESSING the lab leak theory'. Worse (from the perspective of political shit), they ended up viewing the evidence re an engineered virus as really weak (which to a conspiracist will be spun precisely as 'they DID suppress the bioengineering theory therefore that's the one that's really true')

Again - there could be a possible serious investigation - but that just ain't gonna happen is it. This is 100% about politics and DeRp.

[JFree]

On the bright side – it does look like HHS suspended all funding to the Wuhan Institute a few days ago.

So maybe there is actually some element of honesty to these investigations. But DC sure is freaking quiet about the only honest thing here – and loud about the bullshit.

[MWAocdoc]

Well, I guess I disagree that that is how the "discussions" should work. Experts looked at the preliminary evidence and were very worried that that evidence seemed to indicate a lab leak. Although the scientific method requires a disprovable hypothesis and the study design is meant to try to disprove the null hypothesis, this was not a scientific experiment. They had smoking gun evidence that a nearby lab was conducting gain-of-function experiments on bat viruses; and they had a plausible route without evidence for the bat virus to have passaged via pangolins to also result in the COVID-19 strain. The conclusion that the lab leak was unlikely but natural evolution was likely was unwarranted by any criteria you might want to choose! They didn't want to support the lab leak theory so they didn't. It's that simple.

[In Canis Credimus]

Because conspiracy theories aren't of much value, only when sufficient evidence comes in should you assume malice rather than stupidity. Fauci was right to doubt the MAGAs and conspiracists until facts could be obtained.

[Minadin]

Conspiracy theories are hella valuable.

That's how you know what the official story will be in a few months.

[Truthfulness]

Fauci tried to suppress the facts, that's the problem. He and those who collaborated with him politicized the COVID origin story by dismissing any discussion that would make them look bad. The DNC and later the government went to great lengths to silence voices that went against their Wuhan bat market narrative.

The facts were already there from the start. Don't blame "the MAGAs and conspiracists" for calling out the culprits.

[C. S. P. Schofield]

How about; because he’s a self-important, lying sack of dung?

[The Last American Hero]

Lab leak theory. How cute. Kind of like the iceberg theory on the sinking of the titanic.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

With so many conspiracy theories coming true, I'm wondering if the New York Times' quiet revelation that COVID deaths were way overcounted is a way of softening up the enemy front lines to say that Fauci's outsourced Wuhan operation didn't kill that many people so it's not that big a deal.

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[It's only a paper moon, Nominalists]

Rounding up Uyghurs, organ harvesting, Falun Gong persecution...but we had to have a climate treaty so we let that go.
No wonder they release deadly diseases on the world, they know we are toothless. So while Yellen is now saying we need at least $3 Trillion a year for climate action , what are India and China actually doing right now
CHINA
China doubles down on coal with rapid roll-out of new railway track to the world’s largest deposit
257km line from Zhundong open pit to Urumqi will increase the mine’s transport capacity to more than 100 million tonnes a year
INDIA
Bloomberg India’s Plans to Double Coal Production Ignore Climate Threat

Just a demonic misanthropic waste of money

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