A New Opportunity for the Government To Screw Up Abortion Law
Plus: A reminder to Bill de Blasio of what "incentive" really means

Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and Nick Gillespie discuss a new vaccine mandate and a new abortion case at the Supreme Court in this Monday's Reason Roundtable.
2:14: Abortion at the Supreme Court.
19:07: Mayor Bill de Blasio expands the vaccine mandate to private sector jobs and to kids five and up.
32:20: Weekly Listener Question: Any plans to do any live tapings or special events with the Roundtable crew?
37:15: BONUS Second Listener Question: Why do you think it's important not just to celebrate the principles of liberty, but also to actually engage with things people create with their freedoms?
42:12: Media recommendations for the week. (And click here for all the Roundtable's media recommendations, ever.)
This week's links:
- "#FedSoc2021 and Dobbs," by Josh Blackman
- "Without Promising Alternatives to the 'Viability' Rule, the Supreme Court Seems Inclined to Ditch Its Abortion Precedent," by Jacob Sullum
- "Dobbs and the Fate of the Conservative Legal Movement," by J. Joel Alicea
- "The Laissez Faire Origins of the Supreme Court's Abortion Precedents," by Damon Root
- "NYC Expands Vaccine Mandate to Whole Private Sector, Ups Dose Proof to 2 and Adds Kids 5-11," by Romney Smith and Tracie Strahan
Send your questions to roundtable@reason.com. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.
Today's sponsors:
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Audio production by Ian Keyser
Assistant production by Regan Taylor
Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve
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I’d donate to Reason if they had more abortion articles.
As opposed to articles that are abortions?
They have so many. Even with ENB out on clump of cells care leave.
I’m sure it will be an adorable clump of cells.
Not if it's related to or exposed to her.
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Abortion?!?! Abortion AGAIN?!?! WHY all this absurd absorption into abortion?!?! I for one consider it to be an ABORTION contortion!!!
Abortion is like this...
To REALLY understand abortion, you have to have the best ANALOGY!
You’re drunk off of your bleeding ass, driving down the road and shit, minding your own business and shit. Maybe you shouldn’t have dropped that acid, either, but the cops haven’t caught you, and, innocent till proven guilty, right? So you keep on driving… Your drunken ass is bleeding and shit, by the way, ‘cause you’ve got some wicked hemorrhoids, and shit!
Then some space aliens swoop in on your car, and abduct you, and shit. They start anally probing you. For some strange reason, the little green men have a conscience attack, they start worrying about fucking up your health, and shit, what with your giant bleeding hemorrhoids. So they cease and desist, yank their probes out of your ass, and probe your nose instead, and shit. They don’t even bother to clean the bloody shit off of the probes, and shit!
But then a mucus vampire circles around you and swoops in like a vulture!
See, a mucus vampire, well, they’ve got some sort of magical nose for this kind of thing, and somehow he catches on to what’s going down, and he wants to suck your mucus, and shit. So he shows up, to get in on the action.
But when the mucus vampire sees all your blood and shit mixed up with your mucus and shit, he gets all disgusted and shit. The blood, he can handle… Some of his best friends are blood vampires. He’s a tolerant and broad-minded vampire, and shit, you know. But REAL shit, in his mucus??! Now THAT is TOO MUCH shit, and shit!
So he says, “Dudes, getting blood and shit into your mucus and shit, that’s like getting chocolate into your peanut butter and jelly and shit! That’s like getting your stupid and your evil all mixed up into your philosophy! This is some seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit! I’m outta here!” And the mucus vampire is SOOO sickened, he barfs all over you! Then he wraps his cloak around him like Batman folding up his bat-wings around himself, turns into a bat-shit crazy bat, and shit, and flies away, all disgusted.
The little green men, being kinda autistic, take everything literally. They are also HORNY little green men, already excited by anally and nasally probing you, and, upon hearing the mucus vampire talking about “…seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit…”, get all carried away, and shoot their little-green-men jism all over your bloody-snot shit!
Now if we sit back and think about this, your shit bacteria get all fucked up, ‘cause they were expecting a decent burial in your toilet, and they don’t get one. Your nasal bacteria and viruses were expecting to LIVE, or, at least, a traditional, honorable drying-out session in your booger rag, and they don’t get that, either. Your little green men sperm cells get REALLY screwed over, ‘cause they were expecting at least SOME long odds (but a real fighting chance) at some little green woman’s egg cell. Your red blood cells don’t matter, ‘cause they have no cell nucleus, let alone a nervous system, or any kind of independent life. Your white blood cells? Well, yes, they have a nucleus, and their own genes. But they’re WHITE, dammit! You CRAZY cracker muthafuckers!!! WHITE means you’re a RACIST, and WHO CARES about the rights of racist honkeys?!?!
Ergo, we must conclude, this whole thing is an abortion all around! Since abortions are, by definition, abortions, they need to be outlawed!
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everybody lives is best policy.
I agree with Carlin that not every ejaculation deserves to be a human being.
It would be a lot less fun that way.
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Everyone enslaved to REPRODUCE is the best policy. /s
Is there an abortion law or an abortion ruling? Let's check the penumbras and emanations.
I think when it comes to abortion, we're long overdue for an honest conversation about
racewhat the reasonable limits should be.For years we get hit with polls about how 70% of americans "support abortion", but if you read the polls carefully (and Reason's been 100% guilty of this) what the polls say is that 70% of Americans believe that limited abortion should be legal.
It seems to me that we need to discuss what, exactly those limits might be.
The Roe V Wade decision expressly stated that a woman's right to abortion was not "unlimited".
We need to take that next step.
You'll never get people to agree on what those limits should be, so the answer will always be a compromise. These people want abortion under these conditions, those want it only under those conditions, so we'll split the difference between these and those and give both sides part of what they want. Just like a divorce settlement or whatever.
...Or everyone could just mind their own business.
States are wonderful things.
<70% of Americans believe that limited abortion should be legal. It seems to me that we need to discuss what, exactly those limits might be.
What discussion are you looking to have? Abortion is illegal in the third trimester in 43 states. There are less than 5 abortion clinics in 30 states. Abortion rates are at an all-time low.
At/around viability, if the state wants to force delivery then is the state going to pay the $100k for a preemie birth and the $200+k for raising the kid to 17? I thought not.
Before viability, making abortion illegal means forcing women into jail for roughly 5 months to prevent them from making their own decision. Now I know, R's are perfectly ok with expanding the prison system because nothing proves how much liberty there is in America like a ton of prisoners.
How about we make it mandatory to spay and neuter all progressives?
Or sterilize everyone on the dole.
Red states hardest hit.
And yet California has the highest poverty rate.
Here are the 10 states with the most welfare recipients:
New Mexico (21,368 per 100k)
West Virginia (17,388 per 100k)
Louisiana (17,388 per 100k)
Mississippi (14,849 per 100k)
Alabama (14,568 per 100k)
Oklahoma (14,525 per 100k)
Illinois (14,153 per 100k)
Rhode Island (13,904 per 100k)
Pennsylvania (13,623 per 100k)
Oregon (13,617 per 100k)
Must be the "undocumented" then.
Can we go by monetary value and the value of federal bailouts, that would put IL and CA right at the top
So 5 of these states (NM, IL, RI, OR, and PA) are reliably blue states. What exactly is your point?
Your thought has led me to a potential compromise proposal:
Those that receive an abortion must also be sterilized at the same time.
Abortion can be a 1 time use right.
Maybe they can make the ATF run
it. Nah, I wouldn’t do that to anyone.
It´s far from the clever punishment you think it is, plenty would very much apprectiate the sterilization (especially if it was free) without being required to bring a husband´s permission, without the need to be of certain age or to have a certain number of kids and without the doctors making various excuses why not do it.
Biden, 2020: "220,000" Americans dead. If you hear nothing else I say tonight, hear this. Anyone who's responsible for not taking control, in fact, not saying, I'm, I take no responsibility initially. Anyone who's responsible for that many deaths should not remains as President of the United States of America."
Biden 2021 I pledge to always be straight and give it you straight from the shoulder as POTUS and tell you where we are. Experts say that covid 19 cases continue to rise in the weeks ahead and this winter *coughs*coughs* We don't yet believe that *coughs* that additional measure will be needed. We are better positioned than we were a year ago to fight covid19. Since day 1 of my administration, we've been doing everything we can to beat this virus. And that's what we have to keep doing. (2021: 404,080 deaths).
Are you implying that Joe Biden is peddling malarkey? C'mon man!
But while we're on the subject, Fuck Joe Biden.
I find it amazing how you Peanuts think if we just get the right top man everything will be just fine.
Trump grew the size of government more than anyone before him in absolute terms. He was awful.
Biden is just as bad.
Gridlock is the best we can expect.
I’m sure a war with China and Russia will improve joes popularity.
If it results in lower spittin tobacky prices, Rosenbaum’s Buttplug will get right behind that.
Yeah, but it's from the shoulder. Not that phony, direct, quick-draw malarkey. Joe's taking the time to shoulder the weapon and give you well-aimed malarkey.
Keep abortion legal and tax it, with a higher tax for the farther along the fetus is. Can’t afford the tax? I’m sure you’ll get some rich progs to contribute to your GoFundMe
Abortion is the worst genocide in earths history.
Genocide is a term used to describe violence against members of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group with the intent to destroy the entire group
So all the 'UN' (i.e. non-existant) born ?babies? are part of a unicorn nation, unicorn skin-color and unicorn religious group?
More B.S. propaganda by the minute.
The group being exterminated are the unborn.
Kind of like unearned income or what?
Imagination of goods not yet in existence.
No, like genocide, whether repugnant hypocrites like you hide behind the very right you deny others.
Sconce and logic prove the unborn are persons.
You never did prove with science or logic your baseless claim that my references on the subject were biased or based on fallacy.
It looks like you’re the one attempting to apply propaganda.
You're too dense and Power-Mad to logically accept that your "my references" aren't anyone else's but your OWN (and other like you who are changing definitions on free-dictionary)..
You can keep your ignorant propaganda all to yourself; you have that right. You don't have the right to use Gov-Guns and FORCE others to adhere to your faulty definitions by using the 'UN' prefix and ignorantly pretend it wasn't even there.
What about that UN-Constitutional Constitution law? Don't we get to accept it as Law just because it's 'UN' Constitutional law doesn't mean it's not Constitutional.......... (Yeah; Your propaganda really is that stupid).
My references are from the dictionary.
Dictionaries give meaning to all human communication but I’m afraid they can’t help your silliness and propaganda.
And yet; 9 out of 10 dictionaries don't support your B.S. redefinition's and 5-years back ZERO did. You're trying to support your silliness and propaganda by framing it on-top of your own silliness and propaganda...
Of course you know this; but spreading B.S. propaganda isn't about what is known it's about taking what is known and changing it by deceitfulness and deception.
You deny what you can’t refute
First of all, no, because no one wants to "exterminate" all the fetuses. Secondly, only people can be subjects of genocide.
Science and logic have proven that the unborn are people.
People in the womb are in a unique condition.
Any woman with the opportunity to can hide behind the law to kill her unborn baby if she wants to. That puts the death of every member of that group legally in someone else’s hands.
IT’s genocide.
"Every time anyone decides not to reproduce; it's killing the unborn."
per Power-Mad Pro-Life wack-jobs.
Why do you hate women, creep?
You claim what you can’t prove.
If you look at appeals courts decisions where they've been asked to acknowledge liberties other than that to abortion using the language of Roe, the judges always say that only "deeply embedded" liberties count, and that "deeply embedded" means sex. And apparently it's not Lochner that controls there, but a line of reasoning since Griswold that says that the Constitution exists only because people do, and people exist only because their parents had sex, therefore sex is an underpinning of the Constitution and must be recognized as fundamental do it. Don't believe me? Try reading any of those decisions that have tried to springboard off this line of cases into anything other than sex as meaning anything else. It's inescapable — and hilarious!
So you have the right to fuck people the same sex as you, because that's sex and it looks like what people do to reproduce; but you don't have the right to sell it for money, because we don't need to pay to reproduce. You have the right to abort and to use birth control, because it doesn't make sense to talk about a "right" to reproduce unless the choice is both ways; but it's not about "my body, my choice", it's only about making babies or simulating making babies, because the rights to take drugs, donate organs, get tattooed, etc. can't be "fundamental" or "deeply embedded" because the founding fathers didn't need those things for the founding fathers to have been born.
I think you're giving amoral progressives too much credit, in a philosophical throughline (however silly).
Individual decisions underpinning substantive due process are independent rationalizations by hacks who long ago forsook their oath of judicial office.
But Roe was 9-0. You'd think if it was as you wrote, there'd be a dissent.
You underestimate the progressivism of the midcentury Republican party. Reagan was the first ideologically conservative president in the 20th century. The first votes to correct the error of Roe on the Supreme Court had to wait until Republicans found religion, metaphorically and maybe literally. The rest were fundamentally just Democrats who thought the Democrats were going "too fast."
Like most of the current Trumpkins screeching for their identity group to be granted its freebies by the state, and for it to be protected from nefarious free trade and evil corporations by the state.
We were so close to an ideologically conservative major party before the latest Trumptastrophe. In one dimension, Trump's status as an amoral retard is an asset, as he was only interested in the courts to the extent it translated into votes, so he didn't upset existing plans to put conservatives there. But given how his "stop the steal" horseshit crashed and burned in the courts, if, god forbid, he was elected President again, he would not be appointing ideological conservatives to the federal courts this time, he'd be appointing toadies in robes, just like the other Democrats do.
Why has the world unreasonably assumed that Abortion has to mean killing a human life? Whatever happened to C-Sections?
And if you cannot even C-Section it into a "baby" what makes you think there's even a "baby" there to save? Obviously no-one can make it a "baby" but one's own B.S. imagination in fairy-tale land and their Power-Mad ego's. No; It's FORCED reproduction.
Why isn't fetal ejection a-okay as long as purposeful killing doesn't occur? Oh yeah; because sometimes a 'mercy' killing (pulling the plug) is actually a decent choice. If your child was all but mutilated in a car accident having 60% of his body chopped off and the doctor told you he still has a 80% chance of 80-years of life on continued life support, pain and agony of his 30% brain and chest on a bed; is the decision to pull the plug really a [WE] mobs 'other peoples' place of business?
I maintain that such PERSONAL/FAMILY decisions be entirely up to the FAMILY of said child and [WE] Power-Mad mobs of dictators in other peoples personal affairs has ZERO business in that scenario.
This article's title is stupid. The Supreme Court will not make the status quo worse with respect to abortion.
Currently, the regime is: a non-textual right to privacy has penumbras and emanations which include the substantive due process right for a woman to terminate her pregnancy pre-viability. It's completely wrong as a legal matter, without even getting to the moral dimension. Nobody voted for it, except some Democrats in robes.
The Supreme Court can do three things: nothing, overturn Roe v. Wade, or something in between. If it does nothing, status quo. If it shears back Roe without killing it entirely, it'll be an improvement. And if it kills it, we'll be that much closer to the constitutional republic we're supposed to be, where our laws are passed by elected legislatures and not made up by judges.
Let's not forget that a bunch of dumbass progressive s think I should pay for others abortions. Hell no. Money is fungible and the 500 million given to PP is totally for paying for others poor decisions. Stop it.
Yes; And end the ever-growing UN-Constitutional National Socialism (syn; Nazism) in the USA.
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