Open minds, open source, open bars—openness is usually seen as a great virtue.
But when it comes to open borders for immigrants and open markets for free trade, Democrats and Republicans sound more like the "they took our jobs!" rednecks on South Park than the wise statesmen they claim to be.
President Obama supports the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which would lower trade barriers among a dozen countries. But leading Democrats—including Harry Reid, former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley, and progressive Sen. Elizabeth Warren are opposed. And Hillary Clinton, who supported the deal while she served as secretary of state, is now hedging as she seeks her party's presidential nomination.
There are intellectual property provisions that are troubling but that's not what most opponents are bothered by. Democrats have long insisted on "fair trade" rather than free trade, which makes it harder for poorer countries to compete with the U.S. by creating rules and regulations that raise their costs.
If there's one thing that virtually all economists agree on, it's that reducing trade barriers creates a richer, more prosperous, and more peaceful world. Former advisers to both George W. Bush and Barack Obama have signed an open letter urging fast-track approval of the Trans Pacific Partnership for the same reason that Adam Smith touted free trade in The Wealth of Nations: "It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy." As it is with families, so it is with nations.
If Hillary Clinton doesn't want to listen to Adam Smith—or her former self—she might listen to her husband, who signed the North American Free Trade Agreement over the objections of his own party back in 1993. "we have made a decision now that will permit us to create an economic order in the world that will promote more growth, more equality, better preservation of the environment, and a greater possibility of world peace," he said.
If the Democrats are driven nuts by the idea of open markets, Republicans go bananas over the notion of open borders. Virtually all GOP contenders for the Republican presidential nomination have called for a "time out" or a slow down on immigration until they say the border with Mexico is fully secured.
And most want only to let in immigrants with work skills that they say will help the economy and not take away or lower wages for low-skilled, native-born workers.
Think about it: Republicans routinely complain that the government can't deliver the mail or educate children, but they're convinced that government bureaucrats can perfectly adjust the mix of foreign workers in the vast and complicated American economy.
Yet even economists who are critical of immigrants with low skills recognize that they don't take jobs from native workers. Instead, they head to the places where the economy is booming and employers are desperate for extra bodies. And they stop coming or go back home when the work dries up, especially if they know they'll be able to cross borders safely and legally.
But Republicans don't have to take it from libertarians. They can just listen to a guy named Ronald Reagan, who wrote "Illegal immigrants in considerable numbers have become productive members of our society and are a basic part of our work force. Those who have established equities in the United States should be recognized and accorded legal status."
And in a 1980 debate with George H.W. Bush (who called for higher levels of immigration himself), Reagan said:
Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they're working and earning here, they'd pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways.
Open minds, open markets, open borders—yeah, they're all good things.
About 3.45 minutes. Produced by Meredith Bragg. Written and narrated by Nick Gillespie.
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If you want to murder American Libertarianism just when it was finally starting to hit it's stride, let in even more undocumented immigrants. I understand the free association and economic arguments here but you should also be practical.
US history doesn't really support that claim very well, I don't think. And the people would be importing themselves. Presumably because they think that the US has a better system than the appalling cack hole they came from.
What we really need is to export more of our native born socialist dipshits.
"Presumably because they think that the US has a better system"
A more prosperous system.
Everybody likes the golden eggs. Socialist dipshits like the golden eggs. Not everyone likes the goose that lays the golden eggs. Most people want to eat him.
Zeb, do you think this country might have been different if we hadn't been founded by ex-English? The countries founded by ex-Spanish turned out rather differently, didn't they?
They are doing better then much of the Middle East and Africa and Asia and parts of Europe.
Would be interesting to see per capita GDP of Mexico vs Turkey or Chile vs Ukraine.
Also I think you should perhaps compare the US to England. Our standard of living has been better then theirs since before 1776 despite rapid changes in demographics and culture away from the English standard.
Fuck an "A" Germany and Poland and Wales and Ireland and Ukraine and Scotland where complete piles of shit when my forbearer's left them and in almost all cases the divide between how huge of pieces of shit those places were compared to the US was a gaping chasm compared to the gully between the US and Mexico of today.
There is an argument, I don't know how well founded, that the Ward Heelers of Tammany Hall (and elsewhere) resonated with the immigrant population because that kind of corrupt quasi-official "fixer" was what they were used to dealing with in the Old Country (whichever Old Country that may have been). As I say, I don't know how good a theory this is, but both my parents, who were History Teachers (but not Ed School graduates) mentioned it as having some validity.
Why are you comparing historical immigration to what is happening now? In the old days, immigration was controlled and we had a melting pot. That isn't very true anymore. What is happening on our southern border is without controls or organization.
Bullshit. America spends tens of billions to control the southern border. The only reason people come across is because there's no other way for them. In the olden days they could just come to America.
There is no evidence America isn't integrating its newcomers. None.
Before 1920 and the age of EBT/welfare/free housing/healthcare 30% of all immigrants to America returned home because they couldn't survive and find work.
Back in the day de facto "control" against the truly stupid and worthless existed because we simply didn't pay people to come here.
Today almost all immigrants stay because the socialist goodies make leeching the public much more viable option.
Should point out there was once a man named Mr. Corning and he was on a boat a hundred or two years ago and when he caught sight of the American coast he jumped off that boat and swam to shore.
I guess you could say in order to reach the shore he "controlled" his swimming stroke.
In some areas it is turning blue, but it's more due to Americans transplanted from other states than immigrants. The idea that people don't bring their politics with them is ridiculous, however.
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So the only way for libertarianism to succeed is to use gov't to "secure the borders," have gov't determine who the best ones are for us to have free associations with and suspend economic arguments or make sure those arguments are slanted our way? Milton Friedman, "Immigration is a particularly difficult subject. There is no doubt that free and open immigration is the right policy in a libertarian state, but in a welfare state it is a different story: the supply of immigrants will become infinite...But nonetheless, we clearly want to move in the direction that you are talking about so this is a question of nitpicking, not of serious objection."
Friedman's point is an argument to end the welfare state, not immigration. As the only social benefits of critical rconomic import remain SS, Medicaire & Medicaid - none of which undocumented workers can qualify for yet that nearly all undocumented workers pay for through withholding - such complaints are for the time not relevant.
The order matters, so end the welfare state first. Having mass immigration before then is suicidal. And there is plenty of welfare that goes to illegals (and their children).
The CIS has put out trash before, because they know uncritical tools like you are too busy watching NASCAR to actually think about what they say and research it.
"I understand the free association and economic arguments here but you should also be practical."
Yes what could me more practical than betraying a fundamental human right to free association? The hypocrisy in H&R is disgusting on this issue. If bigots want to refuse to serve cakes to gay weddings than we will bend over backward to defend them. If a family wants to come to the US to pursue the American Dream they should be met with the full force of the most violent and incompetent federal beaurocrats we can muster: ICE, DHS, etc.
Since their inception in this country over a century ago immigration regulations have been top-down attempts to organize the racial character of this country. Little has changed as today muslims and latinos are targeted rather than Irish and Eastern europeans.
If you want a country that enforces racial and ethnic purity using violence thats your perogative but be honest with yourself: such ideas are anything but libertarian.
Libertarianism is not (or should not) be a suicide pact. That means it's not anti-libertarian in object to the importation of tens of millions of poor people who lower wages (the Law of Supply applies to labor, too), strain the welfare state, and tend to vote for more statism. (And yes, many of them illegally vote, and Obama is working to make that happen more often.)
The right to free association is nice, but often rights come into conflict. That one right does not trump all others, but if you let it happen, it will. The Camp of the Saints is happening right now, in Europe. Do you think it'll be a victory for liberty when a large percentage of Muslim Africa moves to Europe? Do you think Europe will be better?
Our case is not quite as bad. At least Latin Americans are rarely Muslim. But they are often poor, uneducated, and disposed to vote for the "socialism" that they were exposed to in their native shithole countries. We all know about "Californication": people voting for higher taxes, leaving because taxes are too high, and then voting the same way in their new state. Third World residents aren't immune to that idiocy.
That means it's not anti-libertarian in object to the importation of tens of millions of poor people who lower wages (the Law of Supply applies to labor, too), strain the welfare state, and tend to vote for more statism.
Yes it is. Further, none of your assertions are backed by evidence.
The Camp of the Saints is happening right now, in Europe.
More hysterical nonsense.
But they are often poor, uneducated, and disposed to vote for the "socialism" that they were exposed to in their native shithole countries.
Immigrants never turned America socialist before and they never will.
THIS. It is not the USG's job to assuage your cultural insecurities and thinly-veiled xenophobia. If you are afraid of the welfare state, kill it. There's no reason to believe immigration will deepen it.
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So answer me this hypothetical, Cytotoxic. 100 million poor but devout Muslims decide to exercise their freedom of association and move to Canada. Would you be OK with that?
The point of a hypothetical is not to assess plausibility, it's to assess intellectual logic and consistency. And your response proves that you yourself are one of the "xenophobes" and "nativists" you decry. As the old punchline goes, "We've already established that, and we're just haggling over the price."
I took "Let them in because we have guns" to mean that you could always just have a civil war if things went bad. Which I think is a pretty clear admission that you acknowledge that things could go bad. So it doesn't sound like you are 100% confident that "immigration is always a good thing."
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Those arguments don't account for the fact that they become VOTERS with the power to overturn private property rights. Which constitutes an act of aggression, making immigration controls an act of self-defense if the immigrants in question are anti-capitalist leftists.
In the discussion on how immigrants don't take jobs from Americans, the link refers to a study that uses no empirical data, just projections based on hunches. And one of the projections presumes the validity of the mathematically illogical multiplier effect. That study has no credibility, yet that's all Gillespie and Bragg can come up with? And it practically violates basic economic laws to think that immigrants would take away zero jobs from Americans. (Note that the authors attempt to bolster that claim with quotes from Reagan that had nothing to say about whether immigrants cost American jobs) Plus, who says the only possible downside to citizens is taking jobs away? How about reducing wage rates? Do Gillespie and Bragg think that zero Americans would be affected in such a way? I'm a fan of immigration and think that it has an overall positive impact, but to suggest that no one would be negatively impacted is lame.
I don't know why they waste their time with that crap. There is a much easier way to demonstrate that fact. You aren't entitled to a particular job. If your employer can find someone who will do it for less, tough shit.
And the employer is not entitled to move goods or people over other peoples property and must negoicate to get that privilege which can be refused. And in a true market world there would be no public property socialism to allow such movement
I haven't read the study, but here's a good one that measures stuff that actually happened.
he single greatest bit of evidence disproving the Lump of Labor idea comes from research about the Mariel boatlift, a mass migration in 1980 that brought more than 125,000 Cubans to the United States. According to David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, roughly 45,000 of them were of working age and moved to Miami; in four months, the city's labor supply increased by 7 percent. Card found that for people already working in Miami, this sudden influx had no measurable impact on wages or employment.
No, it's not "good study," and you keep posting it despite the fact that I keep pointing that out. Suffice (this time) to say that the "Card" is the Card of the idiotic Card and Kreuger study that purported to show that raising the minimum wage had no negative effects on employment. Both studies are hugely flawed.
That's just stupid. What evidence is there that any significant number of Pakistanis would immigrate here? Opening the borders doesn't mean free plane tickets for everyone in the world. It is a common assumption, but still a completely stupid one, that people won't change their behavior under changing conditions.
What this means is that people indoctrinated under the influence of foreign nations will end up here, and voting.
If we can't control the conditions of their childhood (prevent from massive fraud and exertion of cultural influence) we have no business taking responsibility for them as a moral cause.
You can't separate control and duty. Open borders is a system where we have no control of the development of foreigners, but then take on some kind of perverse duty to let them in.
If you want more mexicans in the usa the better alternative to open borders is real and robust imperialism. Where we export not only our culture, but our political control over them.
Under those conditions free movement is fine just like movement between Kansas and Nebraska. Then kids in new states (beyond 50), are responsible for living up to a bill of rights.
Pretending movement should be unrestricted between unlike political entities is plain crazy. The more unlike, the greater the barrier. If I'm not mistaken, Mexico should be considered the entire world. Who are they going to stop from gaining entry to their country? Terrorists? no.
Basically open borders gives others access to our land and economy, but us NOT access to their land and economy. Its a unilateral "deal". AKA suicide pact.
Free trade works between countries of similar liberty. Anything else is a bad deal for the freer nation.
That's not true, all free trade of goods and services is good. But immigration is different because the people immigrating influence the political process and thus the future of liberty in America. If they pose a threat to our rights due to their ideological beliefs then we have the right to keep them out.
Haven't you heard, although there is no credible proof, ISIS has training camps just over the border. And without the millions of pakistanis, who will drive the taxis or work in the convenient stores?
They kinda are. It's pretty damn difficult and expensive to move here legally. Just because it's not quite as difficult to get in illegally doesn't mean the borders are open; it means our whole immigration process is broken.
###
They can just listen to a guy named Ronald Reagan, who wrote "Illegal immigrants in considerable numbers have become productive members of our society and are a basic part of our work force. Those who have established equities in the United States should be recognized and accorded legal status."
###
This is one of many bullet points in Reagan's plan. Nick left off the last sentence in this one. I wonder why.
"At the same time, in so doing, we must not encourage illegal immigration."
How'd that work out with Reagan's plan, by the way?
Nick is not encouraging illegal immigration. One way (I would argue the only way in a reasonably free society) to discourage illegal immigration is to make it less appealing than legal immigration.
Any immigration that is illegal under current law is legal under Nick's preferred Open Borders policy. Changing something from illegal to legal doesn't encourage it?
BS. Nick favors letting illegal immigrants stay in the US with full ability to work with no penalty, and opposes efforts to prevent illegal immigration like the border fence.
Open borders one way right? Genius! Here's a novel idea: how about we get EVERYONE to agree on open borders before we do it. A one way street does not make sense.
There is no right to movement except on property you own. All other movement must be negotiated with the owners of that property and can be refused for any reason.
Where in this article is the authors demand that public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws be repealed and that the ownerships of the public roads be returned to either the local landowners or sold off to private individuals? Instead he is relying on socialism of the roads and government forced association to create his globalist dreams
In a stateless society, I suspect that most roads would end up being owned by the communities which they run through and would be kept up some sort of neighborhood association. Open roads are convenient for most people, and tolls are a pain in the ass. I suspect a decent amount of people would probably be more willing to maintain a certain stretch of road around their residence or chip in a certain amount of cash for repairs than to pay a few bucks in tolls just to leave the neighborhood.
And I suspect there would be a common law guarantee of travel. If an "immigrant" wants to come live at my apartment complex, and the only practical way of getting there is to use Acme's Roads, Acme has to allow it. Acme can still charge for it, but they can't just outright deny it, and thus deny the person the only reasonable method of exercising his freedom of movement, contract, using his property, etc. Just as Acme couldn't build roads around my property and then refuse to allow me to use them, thus trapping me on my property.
Common law isn't very popular amongst hard core libertarians. Many even seem blind to the concept, or dismiss it entirely with the magic phrase "tragedy of the commons".
"There is no right to movement except on property you own."
Actually in the US most roads were first given a public access right by way of use. If the public used a road it became public. The owner still owned the land but it was recognized by common law that the public had a right of access it.
It was and is in most states still a right and not deeded ownership by the government. Though the government, in my state at least, is trying its damnedest to claim ownership to public right of way.
Or we could end the WoDs which would defeat the southern gangs so people could stay in their own countries. Add in some property reforms and we're good to go.
This guy makes rednecks look pretty damn smart - about open borders, one of the dopiest of all ideas. Everyone can agree of free trade - that widens compeition and is a boon. Open borders
is one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard. Naturally, it came from a clueless libertarian.
One of the concepts you seem to have difficulty with is that circumstances can change. The welfare state now exists and is bankrupting us. We have a surplus of uneducated, low-skilled workers, and don't need more. We now have a pernicious multicultural ideology. We now have a Democrat party committed to more socialism, that wants to import more people who will vote for that.
Extreme Counter Example: Look at how well immigration is working out for Sweden.
It is rather tiring reading Trade and Migration treated as counterbalances of one another. People aren't goods, they themselves can have quite an impact on the culture and government. The closest you could come to an equivalent would be something like a guest-worker program.
Immigration policy should be to the benefit of AMERICAN citizens. Not the foreigners. If we can have a mutually beneficial relationship, then so be it. But it must be at OUR discretion. With out distinct border control, citizenship is meaningless. And being American should have some Goddamned meaning.
There is no problem with people who take jobs and keep them; it's the added load on the welfare system that comes later. Why would an influx of people willing to work eventually add to the welfare rolls? Because as soon as people are eligible for welfare quite a few of them find it preferable to the hard work at shit wages and no benefits that employers generously provide to unskilled immigrants.
No they won't, you say? So why do we have so many able bodied native born citizens on the welfare rolls instead of working on roofs, mowing lawns, and changing diapers in dementia facilities? I don't think it's genetic, society seems ok with it. In my lifetime we've gone from "living on relief" being shameful to being a socially approved, not uncomfortable lifestyle. I don't see an end to this any time soon.
Of course doing roofing work at bare maintenance wages in Tucson is for many people preferable to nearly starving in Guatemala while dodging gang war bullets. But I see no reason why Section 8 housing, Medicaid and SNAP cards won't be more attractive than roofing to many especially given affirmative action and the grievance mongering of the education system and SJWs.
Someone really, really needs to read Steve Sailer's blog to see the problem with flooding America with incompatible tribes. I doubt Gillespie would want to live near Gypsies, Chechens, Somalis or Marshall Islanders.
The Marshall Islanders, especially, have started chain migration from Micronesia to northwest Arkansas, of all places, to work in the chicken processing plants - I guess because that part of the state ran has out of Scots-Irish people to do that sort of work, like my grandmother back in the 1970's. My hillbilly kinfolk at their most disadvantaged look like characters from an advanced civilization out of science fiction compared to the Marshallese.
No shit. There were some next door to a rental property of mine. They stunk on ice. Endless complaints from my tenants about what nasty, vile shitbags they were.
If you endlessly talk about limited government before you cry out for that government to enforce your entirely arbitrary fear of foreigners, you might be a conservative.
Your irrational baseless fear of Chechens and whatever is not my problem.
The people who have a brain in their head are the ones who are aware of how open borders built America. The ones who don't are the ones talking about how FURRINERS will destroy us all.
When the open borders built America, we didn't have a massive and going broke welfare state. You can have a massive welfare state or open borders, but you can't have both. I prefer open borders, but our politicians, well we'll have to hang half of them on the national mall before the half still left will agree to give up their vote buying powers.
We already have Open Borders, an immigrant simply has to go through the right door. Also, how can he advocate for truly open borders, no strings attached, before rolling back the welfare state.
I love the Libertarian movement, but seriously, it's going to be a step process in this country.
You want open borders? Then push through laws mandating checking of some kind of identification for voting or collecting government benefits, and we'll talk. I know the arguments that the illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the welfare system, and they may be true. But the people who are sure they aren't are going to be a serious roadblock until you do something to reassure them. As for voting, the observable fact that the Democrats are vociferously against voter ID is all I need to make me deeply suspicious of all claims that there is no significant vote fraud.
Of course there is another solution to the problem of illegal immigrants trying to escape from Mexico, though nobody likes to talk about it. We could conquer Mexico, and try straightening out the odds and sods that are making it such a basket case that people are willing to risk their lives to get out. It probably would work about as well as our attempts at Nation Building in Iraq, but that would still be better than the present mess of a shadow subculture of illegal immigrants.
Oh, really? There is a large subculture of illegal immmigrants in this country. All that I have met are, shock stories in the Conservative blogs to the contrary, decent people. But they are even less likely to voluntarily interact with the authorities than legal immigants, and so they form a shadowland in which Gods know what can hide. I don't actually think the Islamotwits who are. Trying to provoke us into a return to Colonialism are smart enough to use that systematically, but I could easily be wrong. Then there's the basic fact that, since they are here illegally, they cannot go to the Law when somebody abuses them. That CAN'T be good.
The people calling for Amnesty don't appear to be willing to actually change the laws on the books, so the problem would grow again. The Liberal Intellectual Radical Progressives are incapable of grasping that if you slather eevrything with petty laws, society breaks down because people simply stop feeling they should cooperate. And while I would like to see open borders, I do want it to take ssome effort to vote, and I acknowledge that those who are SURE that the illegals are sponging off of welfare aren't going to be convinced otherwise.
I don't insist of being doctrinally pure, I simlly want to live in a country that isn't importing Peasants and pretending it isn't.
I'm nopt sure the welfare state is expanded by the illegals. i've seen some figures from sources I don't immediately suspect that claim otherwise. But even if that's true, I don't think that people like yourself who believe otherwise can all be convinced, and I see no reason why your fears should not be addressed.
IF the illegal immigrants aren't getting those benefits, then making citizenship a requirement to get them should not be an issue. And if the LIRP establishment wants to MAKE it an issue, well then we know that they intend to give non-citizens those benefits, don't we?
Welfare recipients should have to walk the same gantlet that pistol permit folks have to.
I had to show up in person at the probate court with multiple forms of state-approved ID. Then I had to fill out a long form with very invasive questions. Then I had to have my fingerprints taken. Then I had to have another photo ID made, with my fingerprint data embedded in the ID. Then I had to wait 45 days while my information went through a background and warrants check.
Of course, welfare folks probably could not afford to pay the accompanying fee (cash only). Oh yeah, had to pay cash money to get my fingerprints taken, too.
I want immigration to work better better, but just letting anyone walk in is not just a great idea for multiple reasons. We don't need other nations criminals and diseased coming here, and there's no doubt that an employed person from another nation is taking a job an American should be doing but isn't because the government is supporting them. Our current system of government support insures that working Americans will be supporting the citizens of other nations. Our system has become bad enough just because of the voters voting themselves largess, do we really need citizens of other nations voting themselves American largess too? And remember Mariel? You can bet that if we were to just have free walk on in access other nations would be dumping their criminals, their diseased, their least educable, most needy andinsane upon these shores. Being a libertarian doesn't actually mean welcoming the trash of the world. even if it weren't for government taking from us to give to others it would be a poor way to run a sovereign nation.
We don't need other nations criminals and diseased coming here,
Yeah, those disease-ridden and drunkard Irish are going to send this country into a down-spiraling way to Heck! And don't get me started about those Italians!
and there's no doubt that an employed person from another nation is taking a job an American should be doing but isn't because the government is supporting them.
It is not like the employer has a say regarding to whom he wants to give his money. After all, HE DIDN'T BUILD THAT?!
Being a libertarian doesn't actually mean welcoming the trash of the world.
Being a libertarian means acting according to the Non-Aggression principle, which also means letting people migrate freely. Nobody is saying that migrants should be given free housing or welfare, but if they can pay for rental apartments or buy homes or can stay with relatives, what is the rationale to stop them from coming in?
If America would just let people in, it would be easier to filter them for criminals.
do we really need citizens of other nations voting themselves American largess too?
There is no evidence of this happening anywhere. Texas isn't turning blue.
You can bet that if we were to just have free walk on in access other nations would be dumping their criminals, their diseased, their least educable, most needy andinsane upon these shores.
I bet that was pulled out of your ass.
Again: it is not the USG's job to assuage your hysterical fears.
You can bet that if we were to just have free walk on in access other nations would be dumping their criminals, their diseased, their least educable, most needy andinsane upon these shores.
Ana Puente was an infant with a liver disorder when her aunt brought her illegally to the U.S. to seek medical care. She underwent two liver transplants at UCLA Medical Center as a child in 1989 and a third in 1998, each paid for by the state.
But when Puente turned 21 last June, she aged out of her state-funded health insurance and was unable to continue treatment at UCLA.
The county gave her medication but does not have the resources to perform transplants.
Late last month Puente learned of another, little-known option for patients with certain healthcare needs. If she notified U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that she was in the country illegally, state health officials might grant her full Medi-Cal coverage. Puente did so, her benefits were restored and she is now awaiting a fourth transplant at UCLA.
The average cost of a liver transplant and first-year follow-up is nearly $490,000, and anti-rejection medications can run more than $30,000 annually, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing, which oversees transplantation nationwide.
What does Ana say about her situation?
"It doesn't matter if I'm undocumented," she said. "They should take care of me at UCLA for the rest of my life because I've been there since I was a baby."
"Open minds, open source, open bars?openness is usually seen as a great virtue."
Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. - GK Chesterton
Do you work? Your job will NEVER fucking be replaced by a cheaper version. NEVER. The American business you work for is so fucking awesome why would they pay less. Right?
The free trade, I'm still skeptical about the fact that we have good laws (environmental and labor) that other countries we trade with don't. This gives a grave disadvantage to the american businessman and forces him to go offshore.
But one thing I do agree with Nick is that the world would be a much better place if trade was free-er and those people over there prosper.
What is amusing is that Latin America is not an environmental waste land despite lacking those "good laws"....and yet they do have (contrary to Bowie's claims) labour and economic "good laws" their economies are, to relative degrees, poverty stricken waste lands.
labour and economic "good laws" their economies are, to relative degrees, poverty stricken waste lands.
I can vouch for that. Mexican labor laws are incredibly MORE stringent and onerous than anything Obama and his ilk could dream. Union bosses claimed those were "labor conquests" but only served to keep a big chunk of the population permanently unemployed or underemployed for EIGHTY DECADES.
It's not clear to me why this country wouldn't become more like the countries people immigrated from under open borders. At the very least some manner of screening would seem necessary.
It's not clear to me why this country wouldn't become more like the countries people immigrated from under open borders
So you are familiar with the history of Texas, then? History really does repeat itself. If you go back and look at the things said about Mexican Texas you would see that they are nearly identical to the things said about Texas today.
Once a ton of non-Mexicans moved to Texas, guess what? They didn't want to be Mexican. Who could have seen that coming? I am sure that this won't happen in reverse cause something something.
It wasn't as simple as Non-Mexicans entering Texas and taking it somewhere else. Americans were invited to settle in Texas alongside Mexican settlers under the assurances that their rights would be protected by the 1824 Constitution, which was more or less mirrored from the U.S. Constitution (except ours established Catholicism as the official religion.) Then the Republican government created from that Constitution collapsed and a central government was formed with charismatic strongmen as presidents, including Santa Anna. That central government was many times at odds with the liberty-minded Texans and thus the revolution was inevitable.
That is the most retarded statement I've read in some time. I would have to assume you lived in a bubble your entire life with no contact with either the outside world or a history book. The list of nations and places not affected by immigration would be far easier, and shorter to list than those that have been affected. You make your home in a country inspired by European governmental philosophy, and ran by people of European descent, where Europeans did not live until the last few hundred years.
When it come to immigration and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Republicans and Democrats sound more like South Park rednecks than statesmen.
And Gillespie reminds me an awful lot of the Aging Liberal Hippie Douche. Reasonoids seem to forget that that episode mocked both racial prejudice AND ivory tower claims that immigration doesn't cause any problems.
The two parties dominating Congress export violent prohibition laws and regulatory meddling to countries dominated by mystics even less literate than themselves. To curry favor with the americanos these banana republicans beat, shoot and jail their citizens over victimless nonsense. The result is a tsunami of refugees without marketable skills. If the USA exported less superstitious prohibitionism there would be fewer refugees trying to get in and more attractive places outside the US that Americans would want to move to. There could be movement in both directions.
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Nick, All great points, could you do a follow up on this story in regards to welfare, both to individuals and corporate and the effect that has on an open boarder policy. Also the impact of how immigration impacts our republic in terms of knowledge of how our government is form, shaped and works to ensure our liberties are protected against force and fraud. (I realize this isn't working so well at this time, but wonder if there is a correlation to immigration dumbing down the electorate as a reason for this).
I get paid over $87 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing,
I get paid over $87 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing,
This is pure bullshit. I've lived in a majority illegal alien Mexican community. They're culture is shit and they leach off the government tit. They drag down wages, commit more crimes, perform badly in school and leave trash everywhere. If you like Mexicans, move to Mexico.
NAFTA is a crony corporate welfare managed trade deal where whomever lobbied better won. You don't need over 10 pages for a true "free trade" deal.
Has Reason abandoned the rule of law? If I steal something in Canada or Mexico (or similar - violate contracts - maybe in China), should I be able to fence the items in the USA?
I can see why someone with XDR Turberculosis might want to come here. Of course we can't prevent him - open borders, you know.
Well if we really are going to open our borders, I can get a rocket launcher, mortar, or anti-tank weapon which will help when the local police come a-knocking.
You can eliminate tariffs but as long as we have fiat currencies it is futile. When Mexico devalued the Peso, it wasn't a tariff and subsidy, but US goods cost 20% more and Mexican goods 20% less immediately. Gold for gold, and there would not be these games.
You fools can't even get enough libertarians to move to New Hampshire or Wyoming or elsewhere such that you could actually vote in a completely libertarian state government. A National treaty won't be Free Trade in any sense of the word, given both sides, but it can be called "free trade" and pass, but would be the opposite.
You can eliminate tariffs but as long as we have fiat currencies it is futile. When Mexico devalued the Peso, it wasn't a tariff and subsidy, but US goods cost 20% more and Mexican goods 20% less immediately.
No, it was the tariffs. Mexicans wanted American goods. The government and their cronies in industry didn't want Mexicans to have American goods. So even with a more expensive dollar, people were smuggling TVs and VCRs and even Tide soap to sell on the flea markets. It wasn't until NAFTA that Mexican importers could at last bring goods from the U.S. more freely. In other words, you have NO clue of what you talk about.
my best friend's aunt makes $85 /hr on the laptop . She has been laid off for 10 months but last month her pay check was $18401 just working on the laptop for a few hours
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What a soul crushing river of poison the "comments" from anti-immigration hysterics are.
Heres my summary of above: We have to use government force to stop the diseased, stupid filthy Mexians and Muslims from transforming America into a third world wasteland.
The most racist public policies arent police procedures. Theyre immigration policies.
Nothing wrong with brown people. I just said that, for racists, we let in a lot more brown folks than white ones. The Swedes aren't so hot to get here anymore, but if it was as easy to enter from Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Russia... as it is from from Mexico, we'd see a lot more people from those regions.
If you profess to love small government but want Uncle Sam to protect you from foreign people and your hysterical doom fantasies about them, you might be a conservative.
The "problem" with brown people is the countries they live in are shitty, and those countries are of their own creation. We shouldn't be allowing people into this country who are fundamentally opposed to liberty whatever color they may be. If that happens to equate to a lower percentage of brown people than I don't really give a shit. And all the stomping of feet and claiming racism isn't going to get you any further than it does when progs do it.
my Aunty Brianna got a nice 6 month old Chevrolet Suburban SUV by working part-time from a laptop..
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Republicans routinely complain that the government can't deliver the mail or educate children, but they're convinced that government bureaucrats can perfectly adjust the mix of foreign workers in the vast and complicated American economy.
Are you... *gasp!* Are you suggesting that Republicans talk out of both sides of their mouths?
Seriously... Who are you and what have you done to Nick Gillespie?
You totally missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the main objection to the TPP is that fact that it's not "open" in any sense. It's yet another instance of "We have to pass it so you can find out what's in it."
Another thread full of economic illiterates who profess to love freedom but piss their pants at the sight of foreign people coming to America. "We want less government -Oh GOD foreign people! PROTECT US UNCLE SAM!"
It is not the USG's job to protect you from your irrational worthless fears.
I live nearish to Yakima...it is small consolation but there are many more Nez Perce living there now then were alive when Thunder-Coming-Down-the-Mountain was around.
They also seem to be growing economically and are flexing their property rights into greater territory.
"It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy." As it is with families, so it is with nations.
What is odd about Adam Smith and the Wealth of Nations is he never did take this to the level of nations even though it seems to be obvious. I often think Smith's theory of "absolute advantage" was simply him bowing to political pressure.
Instead it wasn't until 1817, some 40 years after the wealth of nations was first published that David Ricardo developed the law of comparative advantage.
This has also becomes Mosby's moment, as she is putting into practice what she has preached. President Obama said, " What I think the people of Baltimore want more than anything else is the truth. That's what people around the country expect. Prosecutor Mosby appears to have the eagle eye vision to find the truth in the darkness of injustice and soar with it into the light of equal justice.
Freddie Gray's spine was broken. Friday, everyone was put on notice that the spine of the state's attorney Marilyn Mosby is as solid as the foundation upon which lady justice stands.
Freddie Gray's spine was broken. Friday, everyone was put on notice that the spine of the state's attorney Marilyn Mosby is as solid as the foundation upon which lady justice stands.
I get what the author means, but that's just in bad taste.
What the fuck is wrong with the conservo-libertarains in this thread?
Seriously have you ever met a Mexican immigrant? They are macho Christian family oriented hard working red necks who listen to county music (or at least the Hispanic equivalent of "umpa" music) drive old ford trucks and drink cheap beer. Seriously, how I tell an immigrant from 2nd or 3rd generation mexican-american is the immigrant is wearing a cowboy hat, a button down western shirt, and cowboy boots.
This whole Mexicans are culturally incompatible with American culture is complete and utter fucking bullshit of the highest order.
This supports my suspicion that, for reasons unknown to me, the talk about open borders always gets down to Mexicans. What are Poles, English, Czechs, Ukrainians, Russians, Slovenians.... chopped liver?
Would you explain what is being projected here? Alson vould you eschew the all caps? There are html tags to emphasize text. This isn't AOL in 1998, you know.
I have no animus against any group, I just say that, when the great majority of people in the world are much poorer than thod
s the USA, and the USA is an uncontrolled welfare state, open borders will be a disaster.
Simply put, if welfare benefits were reserved for citizens only then I would 100% in favor of open borders. I have an issue with being forced at the point of a gun to pay for people who aren't citizens just walking across the border and living off my taxes. I oppose the welfare system on principle but it doesn't seem to be doing anything but expanding and the US taxpayer shouldn't be obligated to provide for the poor of the world.
I have eaten French food in France and Italian food in Italy....Pizza and French Fries are light years better.
Anyway I hope you noticed I was kidding. I have no problem with open boarders with Europe. Mexicans make up the bulk of immigration to the US and I am more familiar with their culture having greater first hand experience with them so I chose to focus on them.
I spent 15 years in Central Europe and met a lot of people there who would do well here. I also know a fair number of Hispanics who are also doing very well for themselves and the rest of us.
But nobody here seems to notice what's happening in Italy and the rest of Europe as large numbers of illegals jump borders. Read about Lampedusa these days. The same will happen here without some enforceable rational immigration policies.
But nobody here seems to notice what's happening in Italy and the rest of Europe as large numbers of illegals jump borders.
We are well aware of the consequences of social democracy and Europe's restrictive immigration policies, and in the case of Germany, bizarre blood laws.
The same will happen here without some enforceable rational immigration policies.
You're right lets get rid of the bazillions of unenforceable ones and only enforce laws against disease and criminals.
The immigrants ending up in Lampedusa are a consequence of a failing policy thought by people to be rational. Like invading Libya or supporting rebels against Assad in Syria. How do you expect these same people make rational immigration policies?!
OK, I'll bite. Given that there wars and conflicts all over the world creating desperate people wanting to go somewhere how would you manage the US borders to prevent a situation here where a flood of helpless people arrive needing all the necessities of life immediately?
One of the greatest strengths of conservaderps is finding ways to sabotage themselves. Alienating a bunch of people that should be easy to get sympatico with? That's right up their ally. Conservatives are just too incompetent and stupid to be of much use.
I'm not even anti-immigration, but the pro immigration arguments here are so vacuous and stupid I'm beginning to think there really aren't any arguments besides calling everyone a racist.
This wasn't "the pro immigration arguments" it was a statement of why the claim that Mexican immigrants are SOOOOOOO different culturally to American culture is bullshit.
The libertarian pro-immigrant argument is that governments have no business dictating where free people can live and work and when it gets into that business it ultimately restricts the rights of free people and steals their property.
The issue is not about immigration in itself, as far as the way I see it. The problem is handing out tax payer benefits to even more people.
The sad part about it is, you have immigrants come here and they want to make a better life for themselves, and they are willing to work and work hard. They don't ask anyone for anything.
At this point it is all good. Then you have our hapless government who are hell bent on going full on 3rd world socialist shit hole, so right away they are trying to force handouts onto the new immigrants, who did not ask for anything. And then when they take it, they must be thinking that well, this is the way it is in the USA, it's even better than I thought!
So the issue is not the immigrants, it's the stupid dipshit fucking government.
End the welfare state and let all the immigrants in that want in. I mean unless they're jihadists. And I think it's pretty easy to tell poor Latin American immigrants from jihadists, no matter how hard our worthless shit government tries to pretend otherwise.
"And then when they take it, they must be thinking that well, this is the way it is in the USA, it's even better than I thought!"
Also, it creates perverse incentives for future immigrants. You get more leeches from the countries who are granted convenient access and fewer hard workers from countries who aren't.
Do you think if they ended welfare we would get to keep more of our paycheck? We should still end it for it's own sake. I just wanted to point out that we're still going to be getting it up the arse.
"So the issue is not the immigrants, it's the stupid dipshit fucking government."
Yeaaa!!!! Hyperion!!!!
Nicky G., let's quote Libertarian candidates, not the Great Communicator or The Great Triangulator (one has to ask oneself who paid Clinton off to sign anything).
Harry Browne- "It's not immigrants that lower our standard of living, it's the government".
If we took down the "Free Lunch" sign at the border and I could pay a Mexican truly international market wages who's standard of living would rise? If we shrunk government to within it's constitutional limits, who's standard of living would rise?
The first drug laws were in San Francisco to shut down Chinese Opium dens. Up to that point drugs were legal. The worst thing about immigrants is our reaction to them.
If we eliminate the welfare state, then there is no problem with opening up immigration. Not unlimited immigration--certainly there is no reason to import known criminals.
Problem is, for now, there *is* a welfare state.
OTOH, there are some things citizenship should count for, so residence and working ought not be synonymous with citizenship.
"We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin.
But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. . . We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."
Five hundred years from now we'll be bitching about immigration from our interstellar space condos. Fucking oppressed bums on metal street corners asking for... well... they didn't get to ask. A team of drones just picked that scrabbler like a weed and flew his ass off into the trash dumpster of earth hell. Hard not to feel something for the refuse of the dreaded.
Nick gives very short service to the "troubling IP provisions". Some Cato members have written more extensively about them.
I have trouble supporting anything for which there is no transparency (other than leaks of prior revisions). Apparently there will eventually be transparency, but only after no changes are permitted. I don't understand how Nick can be all rah-rah TPP with such stridency when the transparency part hasn't come yet. That was the same argument for the ACA (we'll know what is in it later).
My other major problem with the TPP is turning courts over to transnational corporate lawyers for which the exclusive factor in any "court" case is merely profits. Hey, I'm a fan of profits, but do I want all laws subservient to profits? I do not.
Hard (and often brutal) times and the seeking of horizon salvation is an immigration under-story for the most part. Immigrants flee pain. Immigrants flee the vacuum of hope in order that some crumbs of hope can be secured over 'there'. The desire to flee into zenith is a critical aspect of human survival when violence or loss is a plague.
The nation hosting those who flee is the behemoth in the room. And Mexico is rewarded richly for her stubborn refusal to care for her citizens.
We talk about sustainable farming and the impressive wealth of flavor and richness it brings to agricultural homesteads, chefs, and people who enjoy good fucking food.
Why is there little talk ever of sustainable governance planet-wide? Micro-governments of people dedicated to create harmonious interactive communal environments that can be sustained within and without? Ultra-advanced tribes. Techno-tribes if you wish.
Has humanity moved from centuries of impossible rule by elites, the corrupt, and those blinded with power into an age of re-identity at the granular? Where nation states cease to exist and the earth is populated with landscapes of micro-states all self-sustaining? Why the fuck does this earth really even fucking NEED massive nations all competing on the event horizon of human life?
Fuck big government. Bring on the micro-communities intermingling across the globe like a trillion flesh computers living, fucking, and creating under no great Nationalistic patriotism, rather, let us live well and in a peaceful intergalactic picnic. Experiencing a goddamn good time sustaining our pleasures, pursuits, and aspirations.
"Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they're working and earning here, they'd pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways."
"Open minds, open markets, open borders?yeah, they're all good things."
I guess Nicky G. agrees with Reagan that this country needs more taxpayers.
What are Meyheeko's most productive slaves, love? Productive slaves tend to the resorts and cottages that line the fat interloping coasts. They won't leave- they have their pittance. People who leave Meyheeko to illegally immigrate using the rivers, dells, and tunnels or worse, are marginalized human gravel. Sad offsprings on the rotundas of time. Walking stories never heard forever.
Immigrants aren't evil. They are lost desperate humans fleeing broken nations often pillaged by the rich. Oh, shit, look at this... motherfucker went all socialist didn't he? No. Poor countries are pillaged by the fucking rich because they are great fucking places to pillage. Duh. Common sense isn't necessarily dictated by ethics. Neither is morality or governance.
"Whoever claims the "right" to "redistribute" the wealth produced by others is claiming the "right" to treat human beings as chattel." Ayn Rand
Nicky G. and Ronny R. endorsed slavery.
See we're running out of productive chatt, er, taxpayers in this country so we need to import more under the promise of a shining city on a hill. The state has to pay for them m-raps and drones you know.
Taxation is worse than slavery because slavery is upfront whippings of my bleeding visage as my black body is beat into the dirt picking fucking shit from your fucking white fucking bushes...
Modern taxation is a 'moral good' - the whip is holographic until you deviate and the holographic whip smacks like the bitches picking cotton in the asshole fields...
The government should make a policy that every adult must write a 1$ check to the IRS, even if he's getting a 3,000 EITC benefit. That way everyone can claim to be a taxpayer.
Well, the South Park rednecks in that episode did lose their jobs. Why should they support a policy that results in them losing their jobs? But I guess I'm missing the point, which is that they are rednecks and rednecks are bad.
The difference between "free trade" and immigration is that immigration results in the wondrous benefits of multicultural enrichment. With free trade, you get the job losses without the enrichment. In fact, a disproportionate number of those losing their jobs will be low-skilled multicultural Americans.
I actually agree on the union thing you despicable whore, but Americans are used to having unions help them pay their mortgages and feed their families and the blue-collar deep country union I tend to feel deeply for. Lima, Oh refineries are filled with unions and most of them are really shitty entities and the in and out corporate purchasers and buyers have to deal with that crap. I know many a family man in those unions and a couple of family women.... My favorite is my bro-in-law. A work-horse who has fucking complained to the fucking unions to jet lazy fucks. The union will NOT. IT.EXISTS.FOR.JOBS. No matter what and a good fucking 30% are lazy dicks who don't deserve a job much like the FOP shit we see all over this site...
Fact is, Union structure has kept my workhorse bro-in-law in a great job for almost 16 years in spite of the horrible shits he complains about constantly. Unions check corporations like nothing else.
Do Libertarians check big corporations? Nah. We're silly bums smashing about in the lowland.
Well, the South Park rednecks in that episode did lose their jobs. Why should they support a policy that results in them losing their jobs? But I guess I'm missing the point, which is that they are rednecks and rednecks are bad.
The difference between "free trade" and immigration is that immigration results in the wondrous benefits of multicultural enrichment. With free trade, you get the job losses without the enrichment. In fact, a disproportionate number of those losing their jobs will be low-skilled multicultural Americans.
Car, rednecks are awesome. Immigration is the complex rivers of human life seeking hope and FREE-Trade is Warren Buffet and the hyper rich Dems and Repubs using their boys and girls in congress to streamline their wishes. Free trade is Make-a-Wish foundation for fat rich fucks who are sore about not having enough.
Not sure when Libertarianism became a conduit for a squall of voices crying for the ultra-rich. Most of us are well-off, white, and slightly priviledged but even most of us don't get that the upper middle-class is a fucking favor to a few nations from the pillagers. Christ, I'm all for capitalism but the only capitalism I see is the local garage sale and hopefully those fucking granmama's don't get shut down by Republican/Democratic city codes supported by attorneys trained in government-supported colleges.
Not sure when Libertarianism became a conduit for a squall of voices crying for the ultra-rich.
I don't know either. It was a very different movement back when the Ron Paul Freedom Report was in printing. The modern day version of libertarianism is like pacifism. It's a good idea if you don't think too hard about it.
Well, a lot of interesting thinkers abound in Libertarianism but the upstream philosophy attracts vagabonds who are all mostly bright but mainly interested in finding a fucking home somewhere in a political tent village for food and water. Peace to these brothers and sisters and I do understand the advantages of melding our melted iron pieces together to form the hot molds of contemporary freedom. BUT, I sense the melding is a meddling of disparate energetic atomic phorces.... shaping Libertarian winds into the tunnels of collective coordinates doesn't benefit the fuck hammers that assail the entire level of authority from the top of the corporate chain to the bottom of the government ladder.
This site even misses out on that aspect. Fuck the state. Fuck corporations of the state. And Fuck power. Power is an individualized personification multiplied without meddling by communist poets or presidential speech writers.
I don't agree with everything in the Report but it was certainly a better and braver publication than what passes for politically correct "libertarianism" in this publication.
A while back the Libertarian Party website did a poll about the subject:
Of course, in that episode, the South Park rednecks were actually correct,
And it's true in the real world as well. Labor follows the laws of supply and demand like everything else. If we have more labor, then salaries are going to fall.
And this isn't only true for low skilled jobs, but high skilled ones as well. Companies have been doing a lot of that the last year, using the H1B problem to fill jobs currently staffed by Americans, with immigrants who will work for half the price.
Meanwhile, all the people displaced by this, and the low skill people who can't find jobs, all end up going on welfare, receiving food stamps, subsidized health care, etc. As do the people coming here and working for low salaries.
Great for the corporations, but the rest of us pay for it. We might save some money on the price of goods/services, but then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money.
"but then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money."
Praise the fucking Walmarts and goddamn Stadiums! Made a lot of shit cheaper and shittier and the government is called in to masquerade as a fucking non-corporate partner in the form of side benefits and splits.
And it's true in the real world as well. Labor follows the laws of supply and demand like everything else. If we have more labor, then salaries are going to fall.
Not according to real world data.
The single greatest bit of evidence disproving the Lump of Labor idea comes from research about the Mariel boatlift, a mass migration in 1980 that brought more than 125,000 Cubans to the United States. According to David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, roughly 45,000 of them were of working age and moved to Miami; in four months, the city's labor supply increased by 7 percent. Card found that for people already working in Miami, this sudden influx had no measurable impact on wages or employment.
Meanwhile, all the people displaced by this, and the low skill people who can't find jobs, all end up going on welfare, receiving food stamps, subsidized health care, etc. As do the people coming here and working for low salaries.
There's no correlation between immigration and people going on the dole or unemployment so this is bullshit.
then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money.
Again, more bullshit without any supporting evidence.
Does the lovely Cyto engage in a job the H1 can replace? Is Cyto young and cautious? Prosperous? A young man or woman in the various medium-sized American cities where recruits are quietly looking to place cheaper labor? A young man or woman with a mortgage, a couple of sweet kids, and a VW, and a life to share over bbq's with the neighbors like on the Cooking Channel?
I'm waiting, Cyto. You know I love you. Not trying to fuck with you but let's get real, nigga.
Actually, let's make this site wide. This club of great minds is a rainbow of wealth and minds and jobs and kids and homes and husbands and wives and city streets.
Do you work for a corporation or small company that is secretly looking to replace your sorta low 40k to sorta decent 80k a year job? For people from Meyheeko or India that will work for far lower? Maybe you make 200k? People from Meyheeko or India or China can be brought over for far less because ....poor/lived in an alley with bricks and sewage..... happy to come to 'Merika for to survive.
Why is there ZERO fucking criticism of shareholder boards on this site and by its amazingly brilliant jews and hippies and millennials and vagabonds and survivalists and artists and poets and fucking writers?
So everyone these boards totally trusts their corporate powers that pay their salaries even when the fuckers work their fingers to the bone for decades that the American corporation will always have their back? PERIOD!
The American corporation is like working for Jesus?
The American corporation you all work for can be trusted to appreciate YOUR individual genius. I've seen all your genius here for years. Does the corporation you DEFEND see YOU like me. An integral hub of the organization's existence? An enlightened part of overall greatness?
Nah.... You all work for structures that don't give a single shit about you but you come on sites like this defending these hollow billionaire docks.
Praise American business. Praise the fucking dollar brooks. Praise capitalism 'cuz we all get what the fucking capitalism is about?... Fuck you. FUCK the great minds and voices I love deeply on this site. Fuck every last one of you. American corporations don't give a single motherfucking shit about you as an AMERICAN individual. American corporate CEO would move every last motherfucking jobs you all have on this entire site overseas right now or replace all your fucking asses with cheap asses bought from and Indian temp agency.
Is there a single man or woman that is working for a fucking American corporation that wants to rap with me right now? Where you fucking believe that American capitalism would NEVER bring in cheap labor and replace your fucking ass. Your genius doesn't fucking matter, bitches. Skipper genius is running tools or machines. That can be taught to average intelligence in 6 months.
Do you ALL believe you canNOT lose your job to lower-paid incursion skins?
You work in New York or Philly or Chicago? You work in Salt Lake, Des Moines, Sante Fe? You work in Sacramento, Miami, Charleston? The world is a American job search and H1's are a jet ticket and your Libertarian pay check is replaced with a foreign worker desperate for salad.
In Meyheeko the corporate requests pile up by the foot. Is one of those requests your job replacement?
Fuck this. Reason commenters better be retired, well off, or that singe dumbass billionaire who checks on the lowly skins.... If you ain't this, your cries to defend capitalism is like a hyena whispering in a tunnel full of lions.... you are going to get your fucking throat ruptured eventually... lions that would eat even a dumb ass trillionaire.....
On a philosophical level I agree with you. In some ways capitalism is a utopia like socialism. Which is why I don't really think it's useful to talk about it on a philosophical level. The closer you can get to people's real world experiences, the better, and in that sense socialism doesn't have a monopoly on the human aspect. It's just that people too often talk about capitalism in an abstract capacity, which doesn't tend to convince anyone.
Jesus fucking christ.... capitalism is sweet until it fucks you up the ass. Capitalism is awesome until your hard-working ass gets tossed on the street. Capitalism has been pimped by fucking losers mostly. Capitalism is gamed by fucking nasty fucks.
In a world shopped by gangsters, mafia, and governments pure capitalism isn't ethical. Nothing is ethical. Ethics are supremo to financial philosophies.
Ethics first, Capitalism second.
Businesses hate this and so do all the capitalists and my fellow Libertarians.
Pure joy in the American system of capitalism. American anonymous wraka laka on top of this building I'm partying on and I party here in New York but these shits don't know that all their fucking jobs of several k's are suspect and see those lights down below and still I know checks aren't based on me traveling to New York towers... if you are on a New York tower right now I am way too fucking slick to be seen as this... and I will leave your fucking Hollywood party and go into the metal steeples and get my two girls and do tons of coke and sex so FUCK you all....
Can some loving Libertarian lover that is not ultra-rich explain his or her career to me and how they 100 hundred percent believe in the American business employing them and how they believe in this business like Jesus and that this American corporation or business would the fuck NEVER replace their asses with much cheaper workers if they haz half the chance?
Meyheeko boys and girls by the desparation millions, a billion Indian fucks, why do you think you are so fucking special at 80k a year in web design or advertising or financials that Caterpillar, JPMorgan, Apple, Kmart, Walmart, Krogers, Kraft, Proctor and Gamble, Adidas, Nike, Pac Sun, and all those other fucking AMAZING brands by the thousands can't get better with poor people in lame countries?
What are you all going to college for if all this is true? And it is...
To answer this question, I'm not rich and I've worked for several employers before I struck out on my own. I just wanted less bullshit in my life. Any establishment with a bureaucracy is going to have bullshit because whether it's the federal military or some dinky sales department, people need to continually justify the existence of their position. That said, it's fairly proportional to the size of said bureaucracy. Also, the negative effects of corporate bs is going to be limited because private monopolies tend to not exist. For example, I think the entire social media marketing industry is pure bullshit, but I'm pretty good at avoiding them. I'm not forced to go on twitter. But it's a lot harder to avoid Obamacare.
Also, regarding the outsourcing thing, I've actually worked with clients who outsourced to designers in third world countries over Odesk or whatever. And honestly, I didn't mind, because I knew I had advantages with being local and at the same time I was happy that he gave these other people opportunities they wouldn't have had before an internet connection. The key is to stay optimistic and know your worth to other people. I had an economics professor in school who said that the key to making money was doing something well that a lot of people wanted. That's what I would tell someone who is worried about losing a job. Look for a need.
Capitalism is as fucking corrupt as socialism. Period. You can live rich or poor in all the wretched systems, bro. Why are we fooling ourselves? The Gawkers and Slates and Salons scream like a putrid bomb face into the mutiny but they are the worst of us thinkers... the system is fucked. Period. Socialists are millionaires like capitalists. And capitalists turn into billionaires off socialists and communists swing between and old country snatches the edges and gets rich off the crumbs and the ghettos and tiny towns starve. NOTHING about this is about Great fucking capitalism or socialism. It is about things, entities, and people getting on the board at the right time when time hits like a storm or a curiously managed failure of funds- like a venture putty schlong whacked by a dick jerk for old Mr. Pierpont on this office floor flooded with Chicago secretaries.
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If we did not have a welfare state, I'd be all for open borders. This is the one area where I don't agree with Libertarians. Also, what does the libertarian establishment think of H1B visas?
If you want to murder American Libertarianism just when it was finally starting to hit it's stride, let in even more undocumented immigrants. I understand the free association and economic arguments here but you should also be practical.
If you're letting them in, they aren't exactly undocumented, are they?
If they come in with no documents, then yes, they are undocumented. Or more precisely, illegals.
WARNING: RECYCLED COMMENTS
Please do not recycle old comments?
There are some real gems, though
DEY TUK ARE JERBS!
{Made with 100% recycled nativist derp)
When you import people, you import their politics.
US history doesn't really support that claim very well, I don't think. And the people would be importing themselves. Presumably because they think that the US has a better system than the appalling cack hole they came from.
What we really need is to export more of our native born socialist dipshits.
"Presumably because they think that the US has a better system"
A more prosperous system.
Everybody likes the golden eggs. Socialist dipshits like the golden eggs. Not everyone likes the goose that lays the golden eggs. Most people want to eat him.
Well you aren't going to convince me through simple gainsaying and cliches.
Zeb, do you think this country might have been different if we hadn't been founded by ex-English? The countries founded by ex-Spanish turned out rather differently, didn't they?
Yes, and that's because the Spanish were brutal colonialists. What this has to do with immigration is anyone's guess.
My comment was in support of buybuydandavis, who wrote: "When you import people, you import their politics." It's true.
Compared to what?
They are doing better then much of the Middle East and Africa and Asia and parts of Europe.
Would be interesting to see per capita GDP of Mexico vs Turkey or Chile vs Ukraine.
Also I think you should perhaps compare the US to England. Our standard of living has been better then theirs since before 1776 despite rapid changes in demographics and culture away from the English standard.
Fuck an "A" Germany and Poland and Wales and Ireland and Ukraine and Scotland where complete piles of shit when my forbearer's left them and in almost all cases the divide between how huge of pieces of shit those places were compared to the US was a gaping chasm compared to the gully between the US and Mexico of today.
There is an argument, I don't know how well founded, that the Ward Heelers of Tammany Hall (and elsewhere) resonated with the immigrant population because that kind of corrupt quasi-official "fixer" was what they were used to dealing with in the Old Country (whichever Old Country that may have been). As I say, I don't know how good a theory this is, but both my parents, who were History Teachers (but not Ed School graduates) mentioned it as having some validity.
Why are you comparing historical immigration to what is happening now? In the old days, immigration was controlled and we had a melting pot. That isn't very true anymore. What is happening on our southern border is without controls or organization.
Bullshit. America spends tens of billions to control the southern border. The only reason people come across is because there's no other way for them. In the olden days they could just come to America.
There is no evidence America isn't integrating its newcomers. None.
immigration was controlled
Yeah sure controlled....how many boats went back from NY to Europe filled with "the controlled" again?
Oh bullshit.
Before 1920 and the age of EBT/welfare/free housing/healthcare 30% of all immigrants to America returned home because they couldn't survive and find work.
Back in the day de facto "control" against the truly stupid and worthless existed because we simply didn't pay people to come here.
Today almost all immigrants stay because the socialist goodies make leeching the public much more viable option.
Should point out there was once a man named Mr. Corning and he was on a boat a hundred or two years ago and when he caught sight of the American coast he jumped off that boat and swam to shore.
I guess you could say in order to reach the shore he "controlled" his swimming stroke.
"Anyday now Texas will turn blue!" -hysterical nativist bullshit
In some areas it is turning blue, but it's more due to Americans transplanted from other states than immigrants. The idea that people don't bring their politics with them is ridiculous, however.
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So the only way for libertarianism to succeed is to use gov't to "secure the borders," have gov't determine who the best ones are for us to have free associations with and suspend economic arguments or make sure those arguments are slanted our way? Milton Friedman, "Immigration is a particularly difficult subject. There is no doubt that free and open immigration is the right policy in a libertarian state, but in a welfare state it is a different story: the supply of immigrants will become infinite...But nonetheless, we clearly want to move in the direction that you are talking about so this is a question of nitpicking, not of serious objection."
http://openborders.info/friedm.....are-state/
Friedman's point is an argument to end the welfare state, not immigration. As the only social benefits of critical rconomic import remain SS, Medicaire & Medicaid - none of which undocumented workers can qualify for yet that nearly all undocumented workers pay for through withholding - such complaints are for the time not relevant.
The order matters, so end the welfare state first. Having mass immigration before then is suicidal. And there is plenty of welfare that goes to illegals (and their children).
there is plenty of welfare that goes to illegals (and their children).
CITATION NEEDED
Undocumented LA County Parents On Pace To Receive $650M In Welfare Benefits. That's one county, in one year.
Or maybe exactly the thing to force a reexamination of the welfare state?
Then stop giving it out.
Extent of Welfare Benefits Received on Behalf of U.S. Citizen Children. (A 1997 study, but of course it's only gotten worse since.)
A more recent study.
The CIS? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
They rely on a study by Rector that is utter garbage.
http://www.cato.org/blog/herit.....lly-flawed
The CIS has put out trash before, because they know uncritical tools like you are too busy watching NASCAR to actually think about what they say and research it.
http://www.cato.org/blog/cis-a.....nts-flawed
"I understand the free association and economic arguments here but you should also be practical."
Yes what could me more practical than betraying a fundamental human right to free association? The hypocrisy in H&R is disgusting on this issue. If bigots want to refuse to serve cakes to gay weddings than we will bend over backward to defend them. If a family wants to come to the US to pursue the American Dream they should be met with the full force of the most violent and incompetent federal beaurocrats we can muster: ICE, DHS, etc.
Since their inception in this country over a century ago immigration regulations have been top-down attempts to organize the racial character of this country. Little has changed as today muslims and latinos are targeted rather than Irish and Eastern europeans.
If you want a country that enforces racial and ethnic purity using violence thats your perogative but be honest with yourself: such ideas are anything but libertarian.
Libertarianism is not (or should not) be a suicide pact. That means it's not anti-libertarian in object to the importation of tens of millions of poor people who lower wages (the Law of Supply applies to labor, too), strain the welfare state, and tend to vote for more statism. (And yes, many of them illegally vote, and Obama is working to make that happen more often.)
The right to free association is nice, but often rights come into conflict. That one right does not trump all others, but if you let it happen, it will. The Camp of the Saints is happening right now, in Europe. Do you think it'll be a victory for liberty when a large percentage of Muslim Africa moves to Europe? Do you think Europe will be better?
Our case is not quite as bad. At least Latin Americans are rarely Muslim. But they are often poor, uneducated, and disposed to vote for the "socialism" that they were exposed to in their native shithole countries. We all know about "Californication": people voting for higher taxes, leaving because taxes are too high, and then voting the same way in their new state. Third World residents aren't immune to that idiocy.
That means it's not anti-libertarian in object to the importation of tens of millions of poor people who lower wages (the Law of Supply applies to labor, too), strain the welfare state, and tend to vote for more statism.
Yes it is. Further, none of your assertions are backed by evidence.
The Camp of the Saints is happening right now, in Europe.
More hysterical nonsense.
But they are often poor, uneducated, and disposed to vote for the "socialism" that they were exposed to in their native shithole countries.
Immigrants never turned America socialist before and they never will.
About 4,800 migrants were plucked from boats off the coast of Libya over the weekend and 10 bodies were recovered, Italy's coast guard and navy said, in what looked to be the biggest rescue operation of its kind so far this year.
Yeah, it's only about 4,800 in two days, nothing like Camp of the Saints at all!
THIS. It is not the USG's job to assuage your cultural insecurities and thinly-veiled xenophobia. If you are afraid of the welfare state, kill it. There's no reason to believe immigration will deepen it.
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"We have to destroy the freedom in order to save the freedom" -nativist twat
So answer me this hypothetical, Cytotoxic. 100 million poor but devout Muslims decide to exercise their freedom of association and move to Canada. Would you be OK with that?
Yes. If they get stupid ideas, we have guns and asians for that.
Not that this is a remotely plausible scenario, and your raising it demonstrates just how demented your 'thinking' is on this subject.
The point of a hypothetical is not to assess plausibility, it's to assess intellectual logic and consistency. And your response proves that you yourself are one of the "xenophobes" and "nativists" you decry. As the old punchline goes, "We've already established that, and we're just haggling over the price."
Yes, nothing says nativist like 'let them in'. Moron.
I took "Let them in because we have guns" to mean that you could always just have a civil war if things went bad. Which I think is a pretty clear admission that you acknowledge that things could go bad. So it doesn't sound like you are 100% confident that "immigration is always a good thing."
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Those arguments don't account for the fact that they become VOTERS with the power to overturn private property rights. Which constitutes an act of aggression, making immigration controls an act of self-defense if the immigrants in question are anti-capitalist leftists.
Yup.
In the discussion on how immigrants don't take jobs from Americans, the link refers to a study that uses no empirical data, just projections based on hunches. And one of the projections presumes the validity of the mathematically illogical multiplier effect. That study has no credibility, yet that's all Gillespie and Bragg can come up with? And it practically violates basic economic laws to think that immigrants would take away zero jobs from Americans. (Note that the authors attempt to bolster that claim with quotes from Reagan that had nothing to say about whether immigrants cost American jobs) Plus, who says the only possible downside to citizens is taking jobs away? How about reducing wage rates? Do Gillespie and Bragg think that zero Americans would be affected in such a way? I'm a fan of immigration and think that it has an overall positive impact, but to suggest that no one would be negatively impacted is lame.
Gillespie is alll too willing to sling what he knows is complete bullshit if he thinks it'll help his cause.
Gillespie is alll too willing to sling what he knows is complete bullshit if he thinks it'll help his cause.
"Anchorman Man 2 is the most important film of the year"
"Can we talk about the libertarian era already"
um....
The intellectual rigor of Reason writers goes into the toilet in the face of their Open Borders dogma.
Everyone becomes MSNBC about some topic.
Area nativists bitching about intellectual rigor is rich. That glass-reinforced domicile of yours is not an ideal rock-launching platform.
I don't know why they waste their time with that crap. There is a much easier way to demonstrate that fact. You aren't entitled to a particular job. If your employer can find someone who will do it for less, tough shit.
And the employer is not entitled to move goods or people over other peoples property and must negoicate to get that privilege which can be refused. And in a true market world there would be no public property socialism to allow such movement
WTF does this babble have to do with open borders?
They are also latching onto the government tit as well. This shit will destroy us. Wise up fast.
Like how welfare is currently destory the economy?
I haven't read the study, but here's a good one that measures stuff that actually happened.
he single greatest bit of evidence disproving the Lump of Labor idea comes from research about the Mariel boatlift, a mass migration in 1980 that brought more than 125,000 Cubans to the United States. According to David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, roughly 45,000 of them were of working age and moved to Miami; in four months, the city's labor supply increased by 7 percent. Card found that for people already working in Miami, this sudden influx had no measurable impact on wages or employment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03......html?_r=0
BTW lower wages aren't a bad thing. Wage inflation is just more costly labor.
No, it's not "good study," and you keep posting it despite the fact that I keep pointing that out. Suffice (this time) to say that the "Card" is the Card of the idiotic Card and Kreuger study that purported to show that raising the minimum wage had no negative effects on employment. Both studies are hugely flawed.
"Open the Borders"
Because I want to vote with 180million Pakistanis over the proper method of execution for apostasy, blasphemy, and adultery.
That's just stupid. What evidence is there that any significant number of Pakistanis would immigrate here? Opening the borders doesn't mean free plane tickets for everyone in the world. It is a common assumption, but still a completely stupid one, that people won't change their behavior under changing conditions.
Here is a survey which says that 150 million from around the world would like to move to the US. And once some move others would probably follow.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/153.....grate.aspx
Awesome. Lets lay out the welcome mat.
And once some move others would probably follow.
*Assumes facts not in evidence*
What this means is that people indoctrinated under the influence of foreign nations will end up here, and voting.
If we can't control the conditions of their childhood (prevent from massive fraud and exertion of cultural influence) we have no business taking responsibility for them as a moral cause.
You can't separate control and duty. Open borders is a system where we have no control of the development of foreigners, but then take on some kind of perverse duty to let them in.
If you want more mexicans in the usa the better alternative to open borders is real and robust imperialism. Where we export not only our culture, but our political control over them.
Under those conditions free movement is fine just like movement between Kansas and Nebraska. Then kids in new states (beyond 50), are responsible for living up to a bill of rights.
Pretending movement should be unrestricted between unlike political entities is plain crazy. The more unlike, the greater the barrier. If I'm not mistaken, Mexico should be considered the entire world. Who are they going to stop from gaining entry to their country? Terrorists? no.
Basically open borders gives others access to our land and economy, but us NOT access to their land and economy. Its a unilateral "deal". AKA suicide pact.
Free trade works between countries of similar liberty. Anything else is a bad deal for the freer nation.
"Free trade works between countries of similar liberty. Anything else is a bad deal for the freer nation."
Utter bullshit. Have you ever heard of the economic terms comparative and absolute advantage?
I have. And it clear that it's utter bullshit that you understand what they mean.
open borders gives others access to our land and economy
WTF is 'our' land? "Our" economy? ITT, collectivist mouthbreathers pretend to love freedom.
Free trade works between countries of similar liberty.
Oh fuck off we've traded with China for decades and it has only been beneficial for America.
That's not true, all free trade of goods and services is good. But immigration is different because the people immigrating influence the political process and thus the future of liberty in America. If they pose a threat to our rights due to their ideological beliefs then we have the right to keep them out.
Haven't you heard, although there is no credible proof, ISIS has training camps just over the border. And without the millions of pakistanis, who will drive the taxis or work in the convenient stores?
A lot these discussion assume, somewhat erroneously, that our borders are currently "closed" in any meaningful sense.
A lot of these discussions, that is.
That's because they are. If they weren't we wouldn't be having this discussion and we'd have freedom instead.
They kinda are. It's pretty damn difficult and expensive to move here legally. Just because it's not quite as difficult to get in illegally doesn't mean the borders are open; it means our whole immigration process is broken.
open marriages
So the Jacket can't satisfy? I'm teh surprised.
###
They can just listen to a guy named Ronald Reagan, who wrote "Illegal immigrants in considerable numbers have become productive members of our society and are a basic part of our work force. Those who have established equities in the United States should be recognized and accorded legal status."
###
This is one of many bullet points in Reagan's plan. Nick left off the last sentence in this one. I wonder why.
"At the same time, in so doing, we must not encourage illegal immigration."
How'd that work out with Reagan's plan, by the way?
Nick is not encouraging illegal immigration. One way (I would argue the only way in a reasonably free society) to discourage illegal immigration is to make it less appealing than legal immigration.
"Nick is not encouraging illegal immigration."
Semantic games.
Any immigration that is illegal under current law is legal under Nick's preferred Open Borders policy. Changing something from illegal to legal doesn't encourage it?
Nick is not encouraging illegal immigration.
BS. Nick favors letting illegal immigrants stay in the US with full ability to work with no penalty, and opposes efforts to prevent illegal immigration like the border fence.
Open borders one way right? Genius! Here's a novel idea: how about we get EVERYONE to agree on open borders before we do it. A one way street does not make sense.
It's certainly not true everywhere, but a whole lot of borders are pretty open to Americans.
To visit or to stay permanently? There is a lot of places I can visit, but long term its a lot harder.
Where?
Exactly. With reciprocity I might be able to get on board.
"We're only going to stop shooting ourselves in the foot if you do to!"
So... if a nation throws rocks in their harbors, we should do the same to ours?
/derp
If a country chooses to limit the choices of its citizens why should we?
or more specifically, why should we allow the US government to limit our choices?
/derp
Are you really this clueless and impractical? Really?
It's not a street, it's freedom.
There is no right to movement except on property you own. All other movement must be negotiated with the owners of that property and can be refused for any reason.
Where in this article is the authors demand that public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws be repealed and that the ownerships of the public roads be returned to either the local landowners or sold off to private individuals? Instead he is relying on socialism of the roads and government forced association to create his globalist dreams
In a stateless society, I suspect that most roads would end up being owned by the communities which they run through and would be kept up some sort of neighborhood association. Open roads are convenient for most people, and tolls are a pain in the ass. I suspect a decent amount of people would probably be more willing to maintain a certain stretch of road around their residence or chip in a certain amount of cash for repairs than to pay a few bucks in tolls just to leave the neighborhood.
And I suspect there would be a common law guarantee of travel. If an "immigrant" wants to come live at my apartment complex, and the only practical way of getting there is to use Acme's Roads, Acme has to allow it. Acme can still charge for it, but they can't just outright deny it, and thus deny the person the only reasonable method of exercising his freedom of movement, contract, using his property, etc. Just as Acme couldn't build roads around my property and then refuse to allow me to use them, thus trapping me on my property.
Common law isn't very popular amongst hard core libertarians. Many even seem blind to the concept, or dismiss it entirely with the magic phrase "tragedy of the commons".
More disingenuous lies.
"There is no right to movement except on property you own."
Actually in the US most roads were first given a public access right by way of use. If the public used a road it became public. The owner still owned the land but it was recognized by common law that the public had a right of access it.
It was and is in most states still a right and not deeded ownership by the government. Though the government, in my state at least, is trying its damnedest to claim ownership to public right of way.
We can have open borders maybe.... but not as long as the state promises benefits along with it.
I personally feel we can open borders when we have no more states and everything becomes domestic policy more or less
Or we could end the WoDs which would defeat the southern gangs so people could stay in their own countries. Add in some property reforms and we're good to go.
Now that's just crazy talk.
This guy makes rednecks look pretty damn smart - about open borders, one of the dopiest of all ideas. Everyone can agree of free trade - that widens compeition and is a boon. Open borders
is one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard. Naturally, it came from a clueless libertarian.
Open borders is one of the dumber ideas I've ever heard.
And yet it built America.
One of the concepts you seem to have difficulty with is that circumstances can change. The welfare state now exists and is bankrupting us. We have a surplus of uneducated, low-skilled workers, and don't need more. We now have a pernicious multicultural ideology. We now have a Democrat party committed to more socialism, that wants to import more people who will vote for that.
Extreme Counter Example: Look at how well immigration is working out for Sweden.
It is rather tiring reading Trade and Migration treated as counterbalances of one another. People aren't goods, they themselves can have quite an impact on the culture and government. The closest you could come to an equivalent would be something like a guest-worker program.
Immigration policy should be to the benefit of AMERICAN citizens. Not the foreigners. If we can have a mutually beneficial relationship, then so be it. But it must be at OUR discretion. With out distinct border control, citizenship is meaningless. And being American should have some Goddamned meaning.
It should mean freedom of association, and that means open borders.
Sweden's problems are entirely a result of social democracy. That applies for pretty much all of Europe.
Social democracy causes Muslim immigrants to become more rapey than native Swedes? How does that work, exactly?
Obama is fighting the progs on the TPP. Boehner has over 150 votes for Fast Track but Dems only have 20-30.
This one is squarely on the idiot progressives.
There is no problem with people who take jobs and keep them; it's the added load on the welfare system that comes later. Why would an influx of people willing to work eventually add to the welfare rolls? Because as soon as people are eligible for welfare quite a few of them find it preferable to the hard work at shit wages and no benefits that employers generously provide to unskilled immigrants.
No they won't, you say? So why do we have so many able bodied native born citizens on the welfare rolls instead of working on roofs, mowing lawns, and changing diapers in dementia facilities? I don't think it's genetic, society seems ok with it. In my lifetime we've gone from "living on relief" being shameful to being a socially approved, not uncomfortable lifestyle. I don't see an end to this any time soon.
Of course doing roofing work at bare maintenance wages in Tucson is for many people preferable to nearly starving in Guatemala while dodging gang war bullets. But I see no reason why Section 8 housing, Medicaid and SNAP cards won't be more attractive than roofing to many especially given affirmative action and the grievance mongering of the education system and SJWs.
Okay...so some of them go on the welfare rolls at the same rate as natives who earn the same amount.
So we import more people for the welfare rolls. I take it we don't have enough people living off your taxes already. OK then.
The ratio of people on the rolls to those not won't change.
But the spending doled out to the people on the rolls continues to consume increasing percentage of all government spending.
Importing more people who could vote for more free stuff doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
Can we trade our welfare abusers for their best & brightest?
If we change the 1965 Teddy Kennedy bring-in-the-third-world-and-keep-out-the-first immigration act, yes.
"The ratio of people on the rolls to those not won't change."
Maybe, maybe not. The percentage of people in the welfare system now is rising now, why would it stabilize?
Someone really, really needs to read Steve Sailer's blog to see the problem with flooding America with incompatible tribes. I doubt Gillespie would want to live near Gypsies, Chechens, Somalis or Marshall Islanders.
The Marshall Islanders, especially, have started chain migration from Micronesia to northwest Arkansas, of all places, to work in the chicken processing plants - I guess because that part of the state ran has out of Scots-Irish people to do that sort of work, like my grandmother back in the 1970's. My hillbilly kinfolk at their most disadvantaged look like characters from an advanced civilization out of science fiction compared to the Marshallese.
No shit. There were some next door to a rental property of mine. They stunk on ice. Endless complaints from my tenants about what nasty, vile shitbags they were.
If you endlessly talk about limited government before you cry out for that government to enforce your entirely arbitrary fear of foreigners, you might be a conservative.
Your irrational baseless fear of Chechens and whatever is not my problem.
And let's make sure those Marshallese fucks stay that way!
*Thumbs Up* for the Douglas Adams shout out Nick.
Now we'll find out which of the regular commenters here are conservatives, and which are libertarians.
Yay, purity tests, my favorite!
His (?) attitude towards dissent with the party line would fit in great at Democratic Underground or the Daily Kos.
You, by judging others, have called yourself out. Don't put me in a box...I'm fat and claustrophobic.
Actually, we wil find out who all has a fucking brain in their head.
The people who have a brain in their head are the ones who are aware of how open borders built America. The ones who don't are the ones talking about how FURRINERS will destroy us all.
Those borders didn't work to well for the people here already.
When the open borders built America, we didn't have a massive and going broke welfare state. You can have a massive welfare state or open borders, but you can't have both. I prefer open borders, but our politicians, well we'll have to hang half of them on the national mall before the half still left will agree to give up their vote buying powers.
GO 'TEAM NOT A TEAM'!
We already have Open Borders, an immigrant simply has to go through the right door. Also, how can he advocate for truly open borders, no strings attached, before rolling back the welfare state.
I love the Libertarian movement, but seriously, it's going to be a step process in this country.
The door is closed for the vast majority of immigrants.
Also, how can he advocate for truly open borders, no strings attached, before rolling back the welfare state.
What other freedoms are you willing to destroy for immigration? Better keep our hands off drugs because welfare state.
Well, there can't be open borders until there is a lobby writing checks for open borders. No campaign contributions, no legislation.
You want open borders? Then push through laws mandating checking of some kind of identification for voting or collecting government benefits, and we'll talk. I know the arguments that the illegal immigrants aren't a burden on the welfare system, and they may be true. But the people who are sure they aren't are going to be a serious roadblock until you do something to reassure them. As for voting, the observable fact that the Democrats are vociferously against voter ID is all I need to make me deeply suspicious of all claims that there is no significant vote fraud.
Of course there is another solution to the problem of illegal immigrants trying to escape from Mexico, though nobody likes to talk about it. We could conquer Mexico, and try straightening out the odds and sods that are making it such a basket case that people are willing to risk their lives to get out. It probably would work about as well as our attempts at Nation Building in Iraq, but that would still be better than the present mess of a shadow subculture of illegal immigrants.
Use E-Verify only on welfare applicants, not job applicants.
that would still be better than the present mess of a shadow subculture of illegal immigrants.
This is so absurd only a conservative could believe it.
Oh, really? There is a large subculture of illegal immmigrants in this country. All that I have met are, shock stories in the Conservative blogs to the contrary, decent people. But they are even less likely to voluntarily interact with the authorities than legal immigants, and so they form a shadowland in which Gods know what can hide. I don't actually think the Islamotwits who are. Trying to provoke us into a return to Colonialism are smart enough to use that systematically, but I could easily be wrong. Then there's the basic fact that, since they are here illegally, they cannot go to the Law when somebody abuses them. That CAN'T be good.
The people calling for Amnesty don't appear to be willing to actually change the laws on the books, so the problem would grow again. The Liberal Intellectual Radical Progressives are incapable of grasping that if you slather eevrything with petty laws, society breaks down because people simply stop feeling they should cooperate. And while I would like to see open borders, I do want it to take ssome effort to vote, and I acknowledge that those who are SURE that the illegals are sponging off of welfare aren't going to be convinced otherwise.
I don't insist of being doctrinally pure, I simlly want to live in a country that isn't importing Peasants and pretending it isn't.
"I don't insist of being doctrinally pure, I simlly want to live in a country that isn't importing Peasants and pretending it isn't."
I'd even settle for peasants, all I object to is the inevitable expansion of the welfare state.
I'm nopt sure the welfare state is expanded by the illegals. i've seen some figures from sources I don't immediately suspect that claim otherwise. But even if that's true, I don't think that people like yourself who believe otherwise can all be convinced, and I see no reason why your fears should not be addressed.
IF the illegal immigrants aren't getting those benefits, then making citizenship a requirement to get them should not be an issue. And if the LIRP establishment wants to MAKE it an issue, well then we know that they intend to give non-citizens those benefits, don't we?
I simlly want to live in a country that isn't importing Peasants
Well that's too damn bad.
Welfare recipients should have to walk the same gantlet that pistol permit folks have to.
I had to show up in person at the probate court with multiple forms of state-approved ID. Then I had to fill out a long form with very invasive questions. Then I had to have my fingerprints taken. Then I had to have another photo ID made, with my fingerprint data embedded in the ID. Then I had to wait 45 days while my information went through a background and warrants check.
Of course, welfare folks probably could not afford to pay the accompanying fee (cash only). Oh yeah, had to pay cash money to get my fingerprints taken, too.
Of course, welfare folks probably could not afford to pay the accompanying fee (cash only).
Let 'em put it on their EBT cards.
I want immigration to work better better, but just letting anyone walk in is not just a great idea for multiple reasons. We don't need other nations criminals and diseased coming here, and there's no doubt that an employed person from another nation is taking a job an American should be doing but isn't because the government is supporting them. Our current system of government support insures that working Americans will be supporting the citizens of other nations. Our system has become bad enough just because of the voters voting themselves largess, do we really need citizens of other nations voting themselves American largess too? And remember Mariel? You can bet that if we were to just have free walk on in access other nations would be dumping their criminals, their diseased, their least educable, most needy andinsane upon these shores. Being a libertarian doesn't actually mean welcoming the trash of the world. even if it weren't for government taking from us to give to others it would be a poor way to run a sovereign nation.
Finally, someone with some sense.
Re: Cap't Crunch,
Yeah, those disease-ridden and drunkard Irish are going to send this country into a down-spiraling way to Heck! And don't get me started about those Italians!
It is not like the employer has a say regarding to whom he wants to give his money. After all, HE DIDN'T BUILD THAT?!
Being a libertarian means acting according to the Non-Aggression principle, which also means letting people migrate freely. Nobody is saying that migrants should be given free housing or welfare, but if they can pay for rental apartments or buy homes or can stay with relatives, what is the rationale to stop them from coming in?
If America would just let people in, it would be easier to filter them for criminals.
do we really need citizens of other nations voting themselves American largess too?
There is no evidence of this happening anywhere. Texas isn't turning blue.
You can bet that if we were to just have free walk on in access other nations would be dumping their criminals, their diseased, their least educable, most needy andinsane upon these shores.
I bet that was pulled out of your ass.
Again: it is not the USG's job to assuage your hysterical fears.
+1 Mariel Boatlift
http://www.latimes.com/news/lo.....full.story
Ana Puente was an infant with a liver disorder when her aunt brought her illegally to the U.S. to seek medical care. She underwent two liver transplants at UCLA Medical Center as a child in 1989 and a third in 1998, each paid for by the state.
But when Puente turned 21 last June, she aged out of her state-funded health insurance and was unable to continue treatment at UCLA.
The county gave her medication but does not have the resources to perform transplants.
Late last month Puente learned of another, little-known option for patients with certain healthcare needs. If she notified U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services that she was in the country illegally, state health officials might grant her full Medi-Cal coverage. Puente did so, her benefits were restored and she is now awaiting a fourth transplant at UCLA.
The average cost of a liver transplant and first-year follow-up is nearly $490,000, and anti-rejection medications can run more than $30,000 annually, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing, which oversees transplantation nationwide.
What does Ana say about her situation?
"It doesn't matter if I'm undocumented," she said. "They should take care of me at UCLA for the rest of my life because I've been there since I was a baby."
And yet another nail in the coffin of the b.s. "immigrants don't get welfare" talking point. Too bad it won't die.
Also, note the sense of entitlement to other peoples money.
Crickets from the usual suspects. I'm sure this is the one and only case.
"Open minds, open source, open bars?openness is usually seen as a great virtue."
Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. - GK Chesterton
Open legs?
Do you work? Your job will NEVER fucking be replaced by a cheaper version. NEVER. The American business you work for is so fucking awesome why would they pay less. Right?
I love Nick.
I completely agree with the Open Border thing.
The free trade, I'm still skeptical about the fact that we have good laws (environmental and labor) that other countries we trade with don't. This gives a grave disadvantage to the american businessman and forces him to go offshore.
But one thing I do agree with Nick is that the world would be a much better place if trade was free-er and those people over there prosper.
Re: Alice Bowie,
Maybe those countries we trade with are not as stupid as those Americans who think those are good laws.
What is amusing is that Latin America is not an environmental waste land despite lacking those "good laws"....and yet they do have (contrary to Bowie's claims) labour and economic "good laws" their economies are, to relative degrees, poverty stricken waste lands.
Re: Corning,
I can vouch for that. Mexican labor laws are incredibly MORE stringent and onerous than anything Obama and his ilk could dream. Union bosses claimed those were "labor conquests" but only served to keep a big chunk of the population permanently unemployed or underemployed for EIGHTY DECADES.
Free your mind and the rest will follow...
It's not clear to me why this country wouldn't become more like the countries people immigrated from under open borders. At the very least some manner of screening would seem necessary.
It's not clear to me why this country wouldn't become more like the countries people immigrated from under open borders
So you are familiar with the history of Texas, then? History really does repeat itself. If you go back and look at the things said about Mexican Texas you would see that they are nearly identical to the things said about Texas today.
Once a ton of non-Mexicans moved to Texas, guess what? They didn't want to be Mexican. Who could have seen that coming? I am sure that this won't happen in reverse cause something something.
America = Mexico. One these worked, the other was dysfunctional and riven with insurrection. The Texas separation was just one of many insurrections.
Re: Marshall Gill,
Fuck, how I hate open tags.
Re: Marshall Gill,
It wasn't as simple as Non-Mexicans entering Texas and taking it somewhere else. Americans were invited to settle in Texas alongside Mexican settlers under the assurances that their rights would be protected by the 1824 Constitution, which was more or less mirrored from the U.S. Constitution (except ours established Catholicism as the official religion.) Then the Republican government created from that Constitution collapsed and a central government was formed with charismatic strongmen as presidents, including Santa Anna. That central government was many times at odds with the liberty-minded Texans and thus the revolution was inevitable.
Do you work? Your job will NEVER be replaced by a cheaper version of you.
It's not clear to me why this country wouldn't become more like the countries people immigrated from under open borders.
Does the fact that it's never fucking happened before matter at all? A smidgen? Any room for facts?
The Choctaw nation would like a word with you.
WTF does the military conquest of a backwards tribe have to do with anything?
It has to do with immigration.
That is the most retarded statement I've read in some time. I would have to assume you lived in a bubble your entire life with no contact with either the outside world or a history book. The list of nations and places not affected by immigration would be far easier, and shorter to list than those that have been affected. You make your home in a country inspired by European governmental philosophy, and ran by people of European descent, where Europeans did not live until the last few hundred years.
Then you don't regularly read Cytotoxic on immigration, I see.
When it come to immigration and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, Republicans and Democrats sound more like South Park rednecks than statesmen.
And Gillespie reminds me an awful lot of the Aging Liberal Hippie Douche. Reasonoids seem to forget that that episode mocked both racial prejudice AND ivory tower claims that immigration doesn't cause any problems.
But those claims are true: immigration is never bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Pirates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMhfbLRoGEw
Secure the borders, but make the immigration process easier and more streamlined. Problem solved.
I hate to be "that guy", but this is a bad time to have open borders when ISIS is swinging their collective dick around.
Fucking really? ISIS? This is what we have a military for.
The two parties dominating Congress export violent prohibition laws and regulatory meddling to countries dominated by mystics even less literate than themselves. To curry favor with the americanos these banana republicans beat, shoot and jail their citizens over victimless nonsense. The result is a tsunami of refugees without marketable skills. If the USA exported less superstitious prohibitionism there would be fewer refugees trying to get in and more attractive places outside the US that Americans would want to move to. There could be movement in both directions.
I freelance over th? internet and earn about 80-85$ an hour. I was without a job for 7 months but last month my paycheck with big fat bonus was $15000 just working on my computer from my home for 5-6 hours. Here's what i have been doing.
.... http://www.MoneyKin.Com
I'm looking for a few leaders who have the entrepreneurial spirit to be part of a successful team. We offer daily and monthly pay, bonuses, benefits, work from home, flexible hours and more! For more information and to schedule an interview visit our website!
.... http://www.MoneyKin.Com
Nick, All great points, could you do a follow up on this story in regards to welfare, both to individuals and corporate and the effect that has on an open boarder policy. Also the impact of how immigration impacts our republic in terms of knowledge of how our government is form, shaped and works to ensure our liberties are protected against force and fraud. (I realize this isn't working so well at this time, but wonder if there is a correlation to immigration dumbing down the electorate as a reason for this).
I get paid over $87 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing,
------------- http://www.work-cash.com
I get paid over $87 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing,
------------- http://www.work-cash.com
This is pure bullshit. I've lived in a majority illegal alien Mexican community. They're culture is shit and they leach off the government tit. They drag down wages, commit more crimes, perform badly in school and leave trash everywhere. If you like Mexicans, move to Mexico.
Not supported by real-world evidence.
Your job will never be replaced by a cheaper version. EVER!
This is hard to take seriously.
NAFTA is a crony corporate welfare managed trade deal where whomever lobbied better won. You don't need over 10 pages for a true "free trade" deal.
Has Reason abandoned the rule of law? If I steal something in Canada or Mexico (or similar - violate contracts - maybe in China), should I be able to fence the items in the USA?
I can see why someone with XDR Turberculosis might want to come here. Of course we can't prevent him - open borders, you know.
Well if we really are going to open our borders, I can get a rocket launcher, mortar, or anti-tank weapon which will help when the local police come a-knocking.
You can eliminate tariffs but as long as we have fiat currencies it is futile. When Mexico devalued the Peso, it wasn't a tariff and subsidy, but US goods cost 20% more and Mexican goods 20% less immediately. Gold for gold, and there would not be these games.
You fools can't even get enough libertarians to move to New Hampshire or Wyoming or elsewhere such that you could actually vote in a completely libertarian state government. A National treaty won't be Free Trade in any sense of the word, given both sides, but it can be called "free trade" and pass, but would be the opposite.
No, it was the tariffs. Mexicans wanted American goods. The government and their cronies in industry didn't want Mexicans to have American goods. So even with a more expensive dollar, people were smuggling TVs and VCRs and even Tide soap to sell on the flea markets. It wasn't until NAFTA that Mexican importers could at last bring goods from the U.S. more freely. In other words, you have NO clue of what you talk about.
my best friend's aunt makes $85 /hr on the laptop . She has been laid off for 10 months but last month her pay check was $18401 just working on the laptop for a few hours
...... ?????? http://www.netjob80.com
What a soul crushing river of poison the "comments" from anti-immigration hysterics are.
Heres my summary of above: We have to use government force to stop the diseased, stupid filthy Mexians and Muslims from transforming America into a third world wasteland.
The most racist public policies arent police procedures. Theyre immigration policies.
The immigration policies might be racist but for some reason we are importing one helluva lot more brown people than palefaces.
Re: Homple,
There aren't enough poor Swedes. All migrated already, 120 years ago.
And what's wrong with brown people, anyway?
Nothing wrong with brown people. I just said that, for racists, we let in a lot more brown folks than white ones. The Swedes aren't so hot to get here anymore, but if it was as easy to enter from Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Russia... as it is from from Mexico, we'd see a lot more people from those regions.
Re: Homple,
Well, don't burden yourself too much with what racists think.
I dont burden myself with racists, I started by responding to jay_dubya and his crushed soul, trying to give him a little comfort.
DEY TRK R JERBS
If you profess to love small government but want Uncle Sam to protect you from foreign people and your hysterical doom fantasies about them, you might be a conservative.
The "problem" with brown people is the countries they live in are shitty, and those countries are of their own creation. We shouldn't be allowing people into this country who are fundamentally opposed to liberty whatever color they may be. If that happens to equate to a lower percentage of brown people than I don't really give a shit. And all the stomping of feet and claiming racism isn't going to get you any further than it does when progs do it.
We shouldn't be allowing people into this country who are fundamentally opposed to liberty whatever color they may be.
The irony...the lack of awareness....
my Aunty Brianna got a nice 6 month old Chevrolet Suburban SUV by working part-time from a laptop..
This is wha- I do...... ?????? http://www.netjob80.com
Are you... *gasp!* Are you suggesting that Republicans talk out of both sides of their mouths?
Stop the presses!
Nick... Love you man, but... *whifffff*
Seriously... Who are you and what have you done to Nick Gillespie?
You totally missed an opportunity to demonstrate that the main objection to the TPP is that fact that it's not "open" in any sense. It's yet another instance of "We have to pass it so you can find out what's in it."
Yeah, TPP and TTIP is about managed trade, giving bureaucrats more power in deciding what goods can be traded how, when and where.
Another thread full of economic illiterates who profess to love freedom but piss their pants at the sight of foreign people coming to America. "We want less government -Oh GOD foreign people! PROTECT US UNCLE SAM!"
It is not the USG's job to protect you from your irrational worthless fears.
Immigration has never been bad, ever.
Where's the "Like" button? I want to "Like" this comment so bad!
I LUV YOU TOO OM
I have to say our little Canadian libertarian is kicking ass and taking names in this thread.
I LUV YOU TOO CORNING
"Immigration has never been bad, ever."
Chief Joseph would like a word with you.
I don't care.
I live nearish to Yakima...it is small consolation but there are many more Nez Perce living there now then were alive when Thunder-Coming-Down-the-Mountain was around.
They also seem to be growing economically and are flexing their property rights into greater territory.
Ah, the injuns of prosperity are finally running.
So Andrew Jackson's policies worked out ok in the end then.
"It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy." As it is with families, so it is with nations.
What is odd about Adam Smith and the Wealth of Nations is he never did take this to the level of nations even though it seems to be obvious. I often think Smith's theory of "absolute advantage" was simply him bowing to political pressure.
Instead it wasn't until 1817, some 40 years after the wealth of nations was first published that David Ricardo developed the law of comparative advantage.
I challenge you to find a worse editorial than this. Fuck, I challenge you to find a worse editorial cartoon than this.
BARFFFFFFFFFFFF
Freddie Gray's spine was broken. Friday, everyone was put on notice that the spine of the state's attorney Marilyn Mosby is as solid as the foundation upon which lady justice stands.
I get what the author means, but that's just in bad taste.
What the fuck is wrong with the conservo-libertarains in this thread?
Seriously have you ever met a Mexican immigrant? They are macho Christian family oriented hard working red necks who listen to county music (or at least the Hispanic equivalent of "umpa" music) drive old ford trucks and drink cheap beer. Seriously, how I tell an immigrant from 2nd or 3rd generation mexican-american is the immigrant is wearing a cowboy hat, a button down western shirt, and cowboy boots.
This whole Mexicans are culturally incompatible with American culture is complete and utter fucking bullshit of the highest order.
They're BROWN, Corning. Don't you understand anything? Brown hordes = destroying America.
And have you HEARD their accents? It's ridiculous!
?que?
Vote pedro
Racism is always a credible accusation. And thanks for assuming the worst.
But waiting through "Presione dos para espa?ol" on the phone is like surrendering to Hitler - onlw worse!
Oprima el dos, si se puede.
This supports my suspicion that, for reasons unknown to me, the talk about open borders always gets down to Mexicans. What are Poles, English, Czechs, Ukrainians, Russians, Slovenians.... chopped liver?
Why do we hate people who can afford airfare?
PROJECTION TIME
Would you explain what is being projected here? Alson vould you eschew the all caps? There are html tags to emphasize text. This isn't AOL in 1998, you know.
I'l try to eschew ridiculous misspelling.
You're projecting your own obsession with TEH MEXICANS onto us.
I have no animus against any group, I just say that, when the great majority of people in the world are much poorer than thod
s the USA, and the USA is an uncontrolled welfare state, open borders will be a disaster.
This presumes that the immigrants are increasing the welfare state, which has not been demonstrated.
The borders haven't been fully opened yet.
Simply put, if welfare benefits were reserved for citizens only then I would 100% in favor of open borders. I have an issue with being forced at the point of a gun to pay for people who aren't citizens just walking across the border and living off my taxes. I oppose the welfare system on principle but it doesn't seem to be doing anything but expanding and the US taxpayer shouldn't be obligated to provide for the poor of the world.
Honestly I find European Culture incompatible with American Culture...have you ever ate the food those places serve?
I would rather an Asian moved here and fed me dog meat. At least he would know how to prepare it to taste good.
The French and Italians would like a word with you.
I have eaten French food in France and Italian food in Italy....Pizza and French Fries are light years better.
Anyway I hope you noticed I was kidding. I have no problem with open boarders with Europe. Mexicans make up the bulk of immigration to the US and I am more familiar with their culture having greater first hand experience with them so I chose to focus on them.
I spent 15 years in Central Europe and met a lot of people there who would do well here. I also know a fair number of Hispanics who are also doing very well for themselves and the rest of us.
But nobody here seems to notice what's happening in Italy and the rest of Europe as large numbers of illegals jump borders. Read about Lampedusa these days. The same will happen here without some enforceable rational immigration policies.
But nobody here seems to notice what's happening in Italy and the rest of Europe as large numbers of illegals jump borders.
We are well aware of the consequences of social democracy and Europe's restrictive immigration policies, and in the case of Germany, bizarre blood laws.
The same will happen here without some enforceable rational immigration policies.
You're right lets get rid of the bazillions of unenforceable ones and only enforce laws against disease and criminals.
The immigrants ending up in Lampedusa are a consequence of a failing policy thought by people to be rational. Like invading Libya or supporting rebels against Assad in Syria. How do you expect these same people make rational immigration policies?!
OK, I'll bite. Given that there wars and conflicts all over the world creating desperate people wanting to go somewhere how would you manage the US borders to prevent a situation here where a flood of helpless people arrive needing all the necessities of life immediately?
One of the greatest strengths of conservaderps is finding ways to sabotage themselves. Alienating a bunch of people that should be easy to get sympatico with? That's right up their ally. Conservatives are just too incompetent and stupid to be of much use.
I don't see why we can't get as sympatico with, for example, Germans and Ukrainians as folks from South of the border. I get on fine with all of them.
WE CAN DO BOTH.
I'm not even anti-immigration, but the pro immigration arguments here are so vacuous and stupid I'm beginning to think there really aren't any arguments besides calling everyone a racist.
This wasn't "the pro immigration arguments" it was a statement of why the claim that Mexican immigrants are SOOOOOOO different culturally to American culture is bullshit.
The libertarian pro-immigrant argument is that governments have no business dictating where free people can live and work and when it gets into that business it ultimately restricts the rights of free people and steals their property.
H.H. Holmes was a big proponent of opening boarders.
You know who else went around opening borders?
John Holmes?
Sherlock Holmes enjoyed an evening with John Holmes I'm told. And even Sherlock was stumped for words for once.
+1 devil in the white city
The issue is not about immigration in itself, as far as the way I see it. The problem is handing out tax payer benefits to even more people.
The sad part about it is, you have immigrants come here and they want to make a better life for themselves, and they are willing to work and work hard. They don't ask anyone for anything.
At this point it is all good. Then you have our hapless government who are hell bent on going full on 3rd world socialist shit hole, so right away they are trying to force handouts onto the new immigrants, who did not ask for anything. And then when they take it, they must be thinking that well, this is the way it is in the USA, it's even better than I thought!
So the issue is not the immigrants, it's the stupid dipshit fucking government.
End the welfare state and let all the immigrants in that want in. I mean unless they're jihadists. And I think it's pretty easy to tell poor Latin American immigrants from jihadists, no matter how hard our worthless shit government tries to pretend otherwise.
"And then when they take it, they must be thinking that well, this is the way it is in the USA, it's even better than I thought!"
Also, it creates perverse incentives for future immigrants. You get more leeches from the countries who are granted convenient access and fewer hard workers from countries who aren't.
Do you think if they ended welfare we would get to keep more of our paycheck? We should still end it for it's own sake. I just wanted to point out that we're still going to be getting it up the arse.
"So the issue is not the immigrants, it's the stupid dipshit fucking government."
Yeaaa!!!! Hyperion!!!!
Nicky G., let's quote Libertarian candidates, not the Great Communicator or The Great Triangulator (one has to ask oneself who paid Clinton off to sign anything).
Harry Browne- "It's not immigrants that lower our standard of living, it's the government".
If we took down the "Free Lunch" sign at the border and I could pay a Mexican truly international market wages who's standard of living would rise? If we shrunk government to within it's constitutional limits, who's standard of living would rise?
The first drug laws were in San Francisco to shut down Chinese Opium dens. Up to that point drugs were legal. The worst thing about immigrants is our reaction to them.
If we eliminate the welfare state, then there is no problem with opening up immigration. Not unlimited immigration--certainly there is no reason to import known criminals.
Problem is, for now, there *is* a welfare state.
OTOH, there are some things citizenship should count for, so residence and working ought not be synonymous with citizenship.
"We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin.
But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. . . We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."
Teddy Roosevelt
Five hundred years from now we'll be bitching about immigration from our interstellar space condos. Fucking oppressed bums on metal street corners asking for... well... they didn't get to ask. A team of drones just picked that scrabbler like a weed and flew his ass off into the trash dumpster of earth hell. Hard not to feel something for the refuse of the dreaded.
Nick gives very short service to the "troubling IP provisions". Some Cato members have written more extensively about them.
I have trouble supporting anything for which there is no transparency (other than leaks of prior revisions). Apparently there will eventually be transparency, but only after no changes are permitted. I don't understand how Nick can be all rah-rah TPP with such stridency when the transparency part hasn't come yet. That was the same argument for the ACA (we'll know what is in it later).
My other major problem with the TPP is turning courts over to transnational corporate lawyers for which the exclusive factor in any "court" case is merely profits. Hey, I'm a fan of profits, but do I want all laws subservient to profits? I do not.
There Is Growing Evidence Noncitizens Are Voting. Why Isn't the Government Doing Anything?
Don't worry, I'm sure they're voting for more limited government.
Hard (and often brutal) times and the seeking of horizon salvation is an immigration under-story for the most part. Immigrants flee pain. Immigrants flee the vacuum of hope in order that some crumbs of hope can be secured over 'there'. The desire to flee into zenith is a critical aspect of human survival when violence or loss is a plague.
The nation hosting those who flee is the behemoth in the room. And Mexico is rewarded richly for her stubborn refusal to care for her citizens.
They're here, they're paying taxes, haven't they earned the right? Once they get done voting, "when they want to go back, they can go back".
Hmmm. So if paying taxes gives you the right to vote, does living on the welfare system and not paying taxes take away your right to vote?
What amazing benefits do tax-payers get?
They get not put in jail or shot to death and get to keep some of their property.
This is extremely thin evidence.
We talk about sustainable farming and the impressive wealth of flavor and richness it brings to agricultural homesteads, chefs, and people who enjoy good fucking food.
Why is there little talk ever of sustainable governance planet-wide? Micro-governments of people dedicated to create harmonious interactive communal environments that can be sustained within and without? Ultra-advanced tribes. Techno-tribes if you wish.
Has humanity moved from centuries of impossible rule by elites, the corrupt, and those blinded with power into an age of re-identity at the granular? Where nation states cease to exist and the earth is populated with landscapes of micro-states all self-sustaining? Why the fuck does this earth really even fucking NEED massive nations all competing on the event horizon of human life?
Fuck big government. Bring on the micro-communities intermingling across the globe like a trillion flesh computers living, fucking, and creating under no great Nationalistic patriotism, rather, let us live well and in a peaceful intergalactic picnic. Experiencing a goddamn good time sustaining our pleasures, pursuits, and aspirations.
Because elites don't want to give up power.
El correcto. Nations are elite boards.
"Make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit, and then, while they're working and earning here, they'd pay taxes here. And when they want to go back, they can go back. They can cross. Open the borders both ways."
"Open minds, open markets, open borders?yeah, they're all good things."
I guess Nicky G. agrees with Reagan that this country needs more taxpayers.
In another words, let's lure Mexico's most productive slaves here and keep them for our own.
What are Meyheeko's most productive slaves, love? Productive slaves tend to the resorts and cottages that line the fat interloping coasts. They won't leave- they have their pittance. People who leave Meyheeko to illegally immigrate using the rivers, dells, and tunnels or worse, are marginalized human gravel. Sad offsprings on the rotundas of time. Walking stories never heard forever.
Immigrants aren't evil. They are lost desperate humans fleeing broken nations often pillaged by the rich. Oh, shit, look at this... motherfucker went all socialist didn't he? No. Poor countries are pillaged by the fucking rich because they are great fucking places to pillage. Duh. Common sense isn't necessarily dictated by ethics. Neither is morality or governance.
So we need more taxpayers?
"Slaves"? WTF?
"Whoever claims the "right" to "redistribute" the wealth produced by others is claiming the "right" to treat human beings as chattel." Ayn Rand
Nicky G. and Ronny R. endorsed slavery.
Oh, and Huff the agile Talbott
See we're running out of productive chatt, er, taxpayers in this country so we need to import more under the promise of a shining city on a hill. The state has to pay for them m-raps and drones you know.
You're lying about Nick.
Are taxes slavery?
Taxation is worse than slavery because slavery is upfront whippings of my bleeding visage as my black body is beat into the dirt picking fucking shit from your fucking white fucking bushes...
Modern taxation is a 'moral good' - the whip is holographic until you deviate and the holographic whip smacks like the bitches picking cotton in the asshole fields...
Please, hold onto the steel rail.
The government should make a policy that every adult must write a 1$ check to the IRS, even if he's getting a 3,000 EITC benefit. That way everyone can claim to be a taxpayer.
Kevin Willamson rides Amtrak with Biden, hilarious article ensues
Well, the South Park rednecks in that episode did lose their jobs. Why should they support a policy that results in them losing their jobs? But I guess I'm missing the point, which is that they are rednecks and rednecks are bad.
The difference between "free trade" and immigration is that immigration results in the wondrous benefits of multicultural enrichment. With free trade, you get the job losses without the enrichment. In fact, a disproportionate number of those losing their jobs will be low-skilled multicultural Americans.
Lies. There are no job losses in either scenario.
http://goo.gl/GEFrPU
Do you live near here?
Nothing like the smell of destroyed unions in the morning.
I actually agree on the union thing you despicable whore, but Americans are used to having unions help them pay their mortgages and feed their families and the blue-collar deep country union I tend to feel deeply for. Lima, Oh refineries are filled with unions and most of them are really shitty entities and the in and out corporate purchasers and buyers have to deal with that crap. I know many a family man in those unions and a couple of family women.... My favorite is my bro-in-law. A work-horse who has fucking complained to the fucking unions to jet lazy fucks. The union will NOT. IT.EXISTS.FOR.JOBS. No matter what and a good fucking 30% are lazy dicks who don't deserve a job much like the FOP shit we see all over this site...
Fact is, Union structure has kept my workhorse bro-in-law in a great job for almost 16 years in spite of the horrible shits he complains about constantly. Unions check corporations like nothing else.
Do Libertarians check big corporations? Nah. We're silly bums smashing about in the lowland.
Well, the South Park rednecks in that episode did lose their jobs. Why should they support a policy that results in them losing their jobs? But I guess I'm missing the point, which is that they are rednecks and rednecks are bad.
The difference between "free trade" and immigration is that immigration results in the wondrous benefits of multicultural enrichment. With free trade, you get the job losses without the enrichment. In fact, a disproportionate number of those losing their jobs will be low-skilled multicultural Americans.
Car, rednecks are awesome. Immigration is the complex rivers of human life seeking hope and FREE-Trade is Warren Buffet and the hyper rich Dems and Repubs using their boys and girls in congress to streamline their wishes. Free trade is Make-a-Wish foundation for fat rich fucks who are sore about not having enough.
Not sure when Libertarianism became a conduit for a squall of voices crying for the ultra-rich. Most of us are well-off, white, and slightly priviledged but even most of us don't get that the upper middle-class is a fucking favor to a few nations from the pillagers. Christ, I'm all for capitalism but the only capitalism I see is the local garage sale and hopefully those fucking granmama's don't get shut down by Republican/Democratic city codes supported by attorneys trained in government-supported colleges.
Not sure when Libertarianism became a conduit for a squall of voices crying for the ultra-rich.
I don't know either. It was a very different movement back when the Ron Paul Freedom Report was in printing. The modern day version of libertarianism is like pacifism. It's a good idea if you don't think too hard about it.
Well, a lot of interesting thinkers abound in Libertarianism but the upstream philosophy attracts vagabonds who are all mostly bright but mainly interested in finding a fucking home somewhere in a political tent village for food and water. Peace to these brothers and sisters and I do understand the advantages of melding our melted iron pieces together to form the hot molds of contemporary freedom. BUT, I sense the melding is a meddling of disparate energetic atomic phorces.... shaping Libertarian winds into the tunnels of collective coordinates doesn't benefit the fuck hammers that assail the entire level of authority from the top of the corporate chain to the bottom of the government ladder.
This site even misses out on that aspect. Fuck the state. Fuck corporations of the state. And Fuck power. Power is an individualized personification multiplied without meddling by communist poets or presidential speech writers.
You don't like pacifism but do like the Ron Paul Freedom Report? Was this the report that blamed our problems on fleet-footed niggers?
Open borders is not part and parcel of a 'version' of libertarianism. It is integral to libertarianism, period.
I don't agree with everything in the Report but it was certainly a better and braver publication than what passes for politically correct "libertarianism" in this publication.
A while back the Libertarian Party website did a poll about the subject:
lp.org/poll/do-you-support-an- open-borders-policy-for-immigration
I don't care about online polls, but even if this one is accurate then Open Borders is where gay marriage was a quarter century ago.
There has never been an open border on the planet aside from the Schengen and even that is regulated.
Of course, in that episode, the South Park rednecks were actually correct,
And it's true in the real world as well. Labor follows the laws of supply and demand like everything else. If we have more labor, then salaries are going to fall.
And this isn't only true for low skilled jobs, but high skilled ones as well. Companies have been doing a lot of that the last year, using the H1B problem to fill jobs currently staffed by Americans, with immigrants who will work for half the price.
Meanwhile, all the people displaced by this, and the low skill people who can't find jobs, all end up going on welfare, receiving food stamps, subsidized health care, etc. As do the people coming here and working for low salaries.
Great for the corporations, but the rest of us pay for it. We might save some money on the price of goods/services, but then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money.
"but then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money."
Praise the fucking Walmarts and goddamn Stadiums! Made a lot of shit cheaper and shittier and the government is called in to masquerade as a fucking non-corporate partner in the form of side benefits and splits.
And it's true in the real world as well. Labor follows the laws of supply and demand like everything else. If we have more labor, then salaries are going to fall.
Not according to real world data.
The single greatest bit of evidence disproving the Lump of Labor idea comes from research about the Mariel boatlift, a mass migration in 1980 that brought more than 125,000 Cubans to the United States. According to David Card, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, roughly 45,000 of them were of working age and moved to Miami; in four months, the city's labor supply increased by 7 percent. Card found that for people already working in Miami, this sudden influx had no measurable impact on wages or employment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03......html?_r=0
Meanwhile, all the people displaced by this, and the low skill people who can't find jobs, all end up going on welfare, receiving food stamps, subsidized health care, etc. As do the people coming here and working for low salaries.
There's no correlation between immigration and people going on the dole or unemployment so this is bullshit.
then we are paying more in taxes to support the government programs to support the people working for less money.
Again, more bullshit without any supporting evidence.
H1 hasn't fucked with Cyto yet. Times do change tho.
This study has been shown to be flawed multiple times and you refuse to acknowledge it.
Does the lovely Cyto engage in a job the H1 can replace? Is Cyto young and cautious? Prosperous? A young man or woman in the various medium-sized American cities where recruits are quietly looking to place cheaper labor? A young man or woman with a mortgage, a couple of sweet kids, and a VW, and a life to share over bbq's with the neighbors like on the Cooking Channel?
I'm waiting, Cyto. You know I love you. Not trying to fuck with you but let's get real, nigga.
Actually, let's make this site wide. This club of great minds is a rainbow of wealth and minds and jobs and kids and homes and husbands and wives and city streets.
Do you work for a corporation or small company that is secretly looking to replace your sorta low 40k to sorta decent 80k a year job? For people from Meyheeko or India that will work for far lower? Maybe you make 200k? People from Meyheeko or India or China can be brought over for far less because ....poor/lived in an alley with bricks and sewage..... happy to come to 'Merika for to survive.
Why is there ZERO fucking criticism of shareholder boards on this site and by its amazingly brilliant jews and hippies and millennials and vagabonds and survivalists and artists and poets and fucking writers?
So everyone these boards totally trusts their corporate powers that pay their salaries even when the fuckers work their fingers to the bone for decades that the American corporation will always have their back? PERIOD!
The American corporation is like working for Jesus?
The American corporation you all work for can be trusted to appreciate YOUR individual genius. I've seen all your genius here for years. Does the corporation you DEFEND see YOU like me. An integral hub of the organization's existence? An enlightened part of overall greatness?
Nah.... You all work for structures that don't give a single shit about you but you come on sites like this defending these hollow billionaire docks.
We need more chinks- http://ottawacitizen.com/opini.....in-beijing
Praise American business. Praise the fucking dollar brooks. Praise capitalism 'cuz we all get what the fucking capitalism is about?... Fuck you. FUCK the great minds and voices I love deeply on this site. Fuck every last one of you. American corporations don't give a single motherfucking shit about you as an AMERICAN individual. American corporate CEO would move every last motherfucking jobs you all have on this entire site overseas right now or replace all your fucking asses with cheap asses bought from and Indian temp agency.
Christ. The fucking naivety scares me.
Is there a single man or woman that is working for a fucking American corporation that wants to rap with me right now? Where you fucking believe that American capitalism would NEVER bring in cheap labor and replace your fucking ass. Your genius doesn't fucking matter, bitches. Skipper genius is running tools or machines. That can be taught to average intelligence in 6 months.
Do you ALL believe you canNOT lose your job to lower-paid incursion skins?
I'm waiting Reasonoids....
You work in New York or Philly or Chicago? You work in Salt Lake, Des Moines, Sante Fe? You work in Sacramento, Miami, Charleston? The world is a American job search and H1's are a jet ticket and your Libertarian pay check is replaced with a foreign worker desperate for salad.
In Meyheeko the corporate requests pile up by the foot. Is one of those requests your job replacement?
Fuck this. Reason commenters better be retired, well off, or that singe dumbass billionaire who checks on the lowly skins.... If you ain't this, your cries to defend capitalism is like a hyena whispering in a tunnel full of lions.... you are going to get your fucking throat ruptured eventually... lions that would eat even a dumb ass trillionaire.....
On a philosophical level I agree with you. In some ways capitalism is a utopia like socialism. Which is why I don't really think it's useful to talk about it on a philosophical level. The closer you can get to people's real world experiences, the better, and in that sense socialism doesn't have a monopoly on the human aspect. It's just that people too often talk about capitalism in an abstract capacity, which doesn't tend to convince anyone.
Explain your job to me in concrete capitalistic terms, then, love.
I'm a self-employed designer. So I don't have the false sense of security that comes from having a corporate job, but I get to pay more taxes.
Jesus fucking christ.... capitalism is sweet until it fucks you up the ass. Capitalism is awesome until your hard-working ass gets tossed on the street. Capitalism has been pimped by fucking losers mostly. Capitalism is gamed by fucking nasty fucks.
In a world shopped by gangsters, mafia, and governments pure capitalism isn't ethical. Nothing is ethical. Ethics are supremo to financial philosophies.
Ethics first, Capitalism second.
Businesses hate this and so do all the capitalists and my fellow Libertarians.
Fuck socialism forever and eternal math. Capitalism has a sliver of hope in the hands and minds of great men and women, but where are these humans?
Pure joy in the American system of capitalism. American anonymous wraka laka on top of this building I'm partying on and I party here in New York but these shits don't know that all their fucking jobs of several k's are suspect and see those lights down below and still I know checks aren't based on me traveling to New York towers... if you are on a New York tower right now I am way too fucking slick to be seen as this... and I will leave your fucking Hollywood party and go into the metal steeples and get my two girls and do tons of coke and sex so FUCK you all....
Can some loving Libertarian lover that is not ultra-rich explain his or her career to me and how they 100 hundred percent believe in the American business employing them and how they believe in this business like Jesus and that this American corporation or business would the fuck NEVER replace their asses with much cheaper workers if they haz half the chance?
Meyheeko boys and girls by the desparation millions, a billion Indian fucks, why do you think you are so fucking special at 80k a year in web design or advertising or financials that Caterpillar, JPMorgan, Apple, Kmart, Walmart, Krogers, Kraft, Proctor and Gamble, Adidas, Nike, Pac Sun, and all those other fucking AMAZING brands by the thousands can't get better with poor people in lame countries?
What are you all going to college for if all this is true? And it is...
To answer this question, I'm not rich and I've worked for several employers before I struck out on my own. I just wanted less bullshit in my life. Any establishment with a bureaucracy is going to have bullshit because whether it's the federal military or some dinky sales department, people need to continually justify the existence of their position. That said, it's fairly proportional to the size of said bureaucracy. Also, the negative effects of corporate bs is going to be limited because private monopolies tend to not exist. For example, I think the entire social media marketing industry is pure bullshit, but I'm pretty good at avoiding them. I'm not forced to go on twitter. But it's a lot harder to avoid Obamacare.
Also, regarding the outsourcing thing, I've actually worked with clients who outsourced to designers in third world countries over Odesk or whatever. And honestly, I didn't mind, because I knew I had advantages with being local and at the same time I was happy that he gave these other people opportunities they wouldn't have had before an internet connection. The key is to stay optimistic and know your worth to other people. I had an economics professor in school who said that the key to making money was doing something well that a lot of people wanted. That's what I would tell someone who is worried about losing a job. Look for a need.
Capitalism is as fucking corrupt as socialism. Period. You can live rich or poor in all the wretched systems, bro. Why are we fooling ourselves? The Gawkers and Slates and Salons scream like a putrid bomb face into the mutiny but they are the worst of us thinkers... the system is fucked. Period. Socialists are millionaires like capitalists. And capitalists turn into billionaires off socialists and communists swing between and old country snatches the edges and gets rich off the crumbs and the ghettos and tiny towns starve. NOTHING about this is about Great fucking capitalism or socialism. It is about things, entities, and people getting on the board at the right time when time hits like a storm or a curiously managed failure of funds- like a venture putty schlong whacked by a dick jerk for old Mr. Pierpont on this office floor flooded with Chicago secretaries.
Nathaniel . although Stephanie `s rep0rt is super... I just bought a top of the range Mercedes sincee geting a check for $4416 this last four weeks and would you believe, ten/k last-month . no-doubt about it, this really is the best-job I've ever done . I actually started seven months/ago and almost straight away started making a nice over $79.. p/h..... ?????? http://www.netjob80.com
If we did not have a welfare state, I'd be all for open borders. This is the one area where I don't agree with Libertarians. Also, what does the libertarian establishment think of H1B visas?