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Anti-Vaxxers Responsible for Yet Another Outbreak of Measles

Robert Kennedy Jr. raves that vaccinations cause "ADD, ADHD, speech delay, autism, food allergy, autoimmune diseases."

VaccinationChernetskayaDreamstimeChernetskaya/DreamstimeMeasles cases caused by the highly contagious virus have been identified in 10 states so far this winter, but the biggest outbreak is in Washington State's Clark County, located just north of Portland, Oregon. So far, 53 people have been diagnosed with the communicable disease, of which 47 were unimmunized and five others are still unverified. One immunized person caught the disease, and one person has been hospitalized.

Public health officials report that 38 cases occurred in children under age 10, and 13 people were between the ages of 10 and 18. Lab tests confirm that the cases match a wild strain of the virus that has so far caused 83,000 cases of the disease during the past year in Eastern Europe.

The Washington State Department of Health reported in 2018 that, prior to the outbreak, only 78 percent of Clark County elementary and seconday school students were up to date on all of their immunizations, and that only 85 percent of kindergartners were immunized using the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine.

In Clark County, 4,881 students were unimmunized in 2018 due to parents citing "personal exemptions." Interestingly, in the wake of the current outbreak, orders for measles shots in the county jumped from 530 doses in the previous January to 3,150 last month. It appears that there is no vaccine hesitancy in plague-holes.

Columnist Daniel Engber urges us to "Stop Talking About Measles" over at Slate. Since the anti-vaccination movement in the U.S. is not growing in numbers, he suggests that proponents of immunization are being too shrill and need take a chill pill. That's a too-comfortable viewpoint.

I counter that a good part of the reason the ranks of anti-vaxxers are not increasing is because responsible media reports highlight how each outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease is traced to parents who refuse immunization that could protect their kids. If not for such reporting, otherwise unopposed anti-vax activists like Robert Kennedy, Jr. will continue to persuade parents to forego immunizations with their public ravings about vaccination causing "ADD, ADHD, speech delay, autism, food allergy, autoimmune diseases."

Bottom line: Don't be like some hapless parents in Clark County and wait until a disease outbreak occurs where you live. Vaccinate your kids now.

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  • JFree||

    Clark County should give the entire bill for its expenses to those anti-vaxxer parents. Make them pay a real price (and that's hoping no kid dies cuz of this)

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    What's a little measles when you avoided autism?

  • 0x1000||

    They should just cut to the chase and make vaccines mandatory. That's what is eventually going to come of this mess anyway.

  • JFree||

    No reason for it to be mandatory. Herd immunity is a real thing for contagious diseases and the anti-vaxxers are basically trying to free-ride off of the perceived immunity of the herd. But get enough of them and the herd no longer has immunity and you incur significant public health costs both in preparation for next outbreak and treatment.

    So model that and charge on a sliding scale and let them decide whether to pay to not vaccinate or vaccinate for free. The herd immunity for measles is afaik 92-95% vaccinated - that county was 85%. An outbreak was inevitable. With herd immunity, the disease can potentially be eradicated - which is how smallpox was eradicated

  • Vaccine-choice||

    Are you up to date on all vaccines? No vaccine is effective beyond 10 years and most lose effectiveness in less than 10 years. Are you getting tested every few years to verify that your vaccine still works?

    Second, are you at the border vaccinating everyone coming in both legally and illegally? Are you going to require testing of every person who enters (both illegal and legal)? Who is going to pay for all this testing?

    Who is going to pay for all these extra vaccines that all adults should be getting at least every ten years?

    If a kid is injured or dies from a vaccine, they can sue, right? Wrong!!!!! There is a government vaccine court that immunized the manufacturer from ALL liability. How libertarian is that? Put liability where it belongs - not on US taxpayers, but on the manufacturer.

    Remember the Disney measles? It was a strain of measles that was not preventable by the Merck MMR vaccine and it came from a foreigner. Again, want to start testing at the airport if anyone, both US and foreign, who arrives into the IS?

    If you want to be non-libertarian and force choices onto me, fine, that is on you flushing your libertarian values down the toilet, but at least be completely honest and open about the debate.

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    Nothing he said was non-libertarian. Just because you choose to be an idiot, and I do not place those that are unable to be vaccinated in your camp, does not mean you are free of consequences. Libertarianism is about consequence. You want government to protect you from your bad choices even if your choice has detrimental or fatal effects on others. That is not libertarian.

  • CE||

    as Michael Badnarik said, "you bring your syringe, and I'll bring my .45...."

  • Nardz||

    So... this pretty much destroys the open borders/pro illegal immigration argument, no?

  • Hugh Akston||

    I got vaccinated against autism and it gave me the measles.

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    Didn't even do what it was supposed to either!

  • Sevo||

    Jenny McCarthy approves this message!

  • some guy||

    I got vaccinated against a bunch of stuff and am suffering all sorts of side effects:

    - Wrinkles (particularly around the eyes)
    - Sore knees
    - Moderate, but irreversible weight gain
    - Lapses in short term memory
    - Graying hair
    - Increase in body hair

    The list just goes on and on.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    In other words, you are getting old. I don't think that has anything to do with vaccinations.

  • some guy||

    #ThatsTheJoke

  • $park¥ is the Worst||

    Obviously his vaccinations caused autism.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    And here I was expecting you to come back and say the only reason you lived long enough to get old was because of the vaccinations.

  • NashTiger||

    So glad we have you to Progsplain the jokes

  • Brandybuck||

    Whoosh!!!

  • CE||

    plus a permanent scar on my arm from that flesh-rending machine they lined us up for back in the day.

  • Tu­lpa||

    And didn't work.

  • ||

    lol.

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    It's hard for me to come up with any ideology dumber than the anti-vaxxer crowd. The science IS settled, but even if they don't believe a bunch of high-falutin' theory, the practical results are obvious, have been obvious for a century or two, and continue being obvious.

    Flat-earthers don't even really hurt themselves; they certainly can't fall off the edge by mistake, so I will hand them the out that it's better to be a flat-earther by mistake than a round-earther by mistake. No, they don't hold a candle to anti-vaxxers.

    Believe witches should be burnt at the stake? Well, at least you can be punished for the murder you commit.

    Nope, anti-vaxxers are about as dumb as you can get.

  • Sevo||

    "Flat-earthers don't even really hurt themselves; they certainly can't fall off the edge by mistake, so I will hand them the out that it's better to be a flat-earther by mistake than a round-earther by mistake. No, they don't hold a candle to anti-vaxxers."

    Similarly, the home-schooled kids who are handed the malarkey regarding somebody living 500 years, or the earth being only X thousands of years old. Even if they buy into such fantasies, it harms them only.
    Gov't-schooled kids who are handed the malarkey regarding the New Deal, OTOH, harm the world in massive amounts.

  • GroundTruth||

    "Gov't-schooled kids who are handed the malarkey regarding the New Deal, OTOH, harm the world in massive amounts."

    There but for the grace of Heinlein and Rand go I.

  • Brandybuck||

    Who are you going to trust? An ex-Playboy bunny and her comedian husband or tens of thousands of physicians and scientists?

  • Jury Nullification||

    "Who are you going to trust? An ex-Playboy bunny and her comedian husband or tens of thousands of physicians and scientists?"

    Depends. Are those the same scientists and physicians that perpetuate the man-made global warming, I mean, climate change hoax. How about the settled science of circa 1975 stating the world was heading toward an ice age? Had those credible scientists maintained their settled science ice age pronouncement instead of doing a 1-80 they would appear more correct today.

    It should be indisputable that vaccinations do harm to some people and you clowns dismiss them exercising their freewill as dangerous folly because they choose to assume the risks of their choice. You seemingly lament the inability to prosecute anti-vaxxers. You did not even bother to offer as to how you are being harmed while directing your scorn and derision at them. Do you believe the erroneously applied herd immunity argument with regard to vaccine-induce immunity. It's okay, I wouldn't either. Perhaps something more novel.

    Remember, vaccinations were supposed to be lifetime protection until they weren't. Where was the resurgence of these diseases when about half the people would have lost their vaccine-induce immunity? How do you know that a vaccinated person was not the carrier in some way?

    Some might question your great faith in your sacred religion of science and it's priestly doctors and scientists. They appear to have molested you from afar.

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    I am quite willing to get the government out of vaccine enforcement, school choice, and a zillion other areas of daily life.

    Then people can choose schools which prohibit vaccinated or unvaccinated kids.

    I'm sorry for kids who die from vaccines. I'm even sorrier for kids who die from diseases propagated by unvaccinated kids.

    I am absolutely positive that insurance companies would gladly offer vaccine-based insurance; big payouts if your kid dies from the vaccines listed; small premiums otherwise. Offered right at vaccination time, like flight insurance used to be (maybe still is). Small consolation to parents whose kids die, but since they seem to be consoled by huge lawsuits now, I expect that letting them buy, say 10 or 100 times the payout for 10 to 100 times the premium would be satisfactory.

  • Brandybuck||

    Wow. Just wow.

  • LiborCon||

    "Are those the same scientists and physicians that perpetuate the man-made global warming, I mean, climate change hoax."

    No. Immunology and Climatology are different fields. So they would be different scientists.

  • IceTrey||

    The risk of their choice is also upon those too young to be vaccinated or with compromised immune systems.

  • Teddy Pump||

    You mean the same physicians & scientists that work hand in hand with huge Pharma companies that create a new panacea drug every other week with a litany of side effects as long as my arm?...Heck, they got a pill for everything now & people are soooo friggin' healthy popping 'em, right? Hey, many elderly people these days take 20 or more pills a day! And who is profiting from this?...The American Death Care System!

    Truth be told, nobody will ever convince me that injecting little babies with needles full of poisons & toxins many times before they can even walk & getting boosters years later is the right way to go!...Actually, it is barbaric & satanic & makes people sicker later in life & then lo & behold, Big Pharma will come to the recuse with their plethora of pills!..The whole thing is one HUGE CONSPIRACY & apparently, Reason readers have fallen for it!

  • Sevo||

    "...The whole thing is one HUGE CONSPIRACY & apparently, Reason readers have fallen for it!"

    Nice tin-foil hat, you imbecile.

  • Teddy Pump||

    LOL!!!....Did you get pricked with yer Flu Shot yet, Ignorant Prick?

    Yeah, go get it & weaken your Immune System some more!

  • soldiermedic76||

    That is total bullshit. There is no evidence, none to support your conspiracy theories. That isn't how the immune system works. Vaccines don't weaken your system at all. Where do you get that bullshit?

  • Teddy Pump||

    Go & study what is actually in these vaccines & you'll see a long list of toxins & poisons including aluminium & mercury, etc.....Bottom line: You've been fed a whole lotta BS from the medical establishment & Govt. as well!

    People may live longer these days, but, they are not healthier & the list of new diseases & maladies grows by the years....& Of course, Big Pharma & Govt. are right there to push more pills & drugs & vaccines to "cure" them....LOL!!!...U people are suckers!

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    I think your tin foil hat gave you cancer.

  • LiborCon||

    "The American Death Care System!"

    Catchy.

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Whoa, flashback! I didn't know anyone still remembered us. We toured with Genesis in '87 but then we broke up as our keyboardist moved to Pasadena to take over his uncle's lawnmower repair business.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    " Pharma companies that create a new panacea drug every other week with a litany of side effects as long as my arm?"

    You can blaim the FDA for that. If aspirin was going through the FDA approval it would end up with a long list of side effects.

    The problem is that the FDA makes them list every effect other than the desired effect of the drug that the test group reports, even if it's only reported by .0001% of the test group that reported it and/or there is zero evidence that the drug caused the reported effect. This is why you will see drugs reporting the condition they are intended to treat as side effects.

  • IceTrey||

    Well people do live longer today than in the past.

  • Juice||

    Who are you going to trust? An ex-Playboy bunny and her comedian husband or tens of thousands of physicians and scientists?

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but that is a logical fallacy.

  • ||

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but that is a logical fallacy.

    Right. McCarthy was 16 when the last Playboy Club, where the bunnies worked, closed down.

  • ||

    Shit, lest I seem too much like I defend her and her ideas; but seriously, her anti-vaccination crusade is dumb.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    "Believe witches should be burnt at the stake? Well, at least you can be punished for the murder you commit."

    Unless enough people believe that witches are real and should be burnt at the stake that they get the government to start burning witches.

    PS: Most witches were hung, burning at the stake was for heretics /

  • Tu­lpa||

    "Most witches were hung"

    They were called warlocks bro.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    Hung as in by the neck until dead not well endowed.

  • $park¥ is the Worst||

    You should have laid off the vaccinations.

  • Mickey Rat||

    Except the proper term for that mode of execution is "hanged".

  • JWatts||

    "They were called warlocks bro."

    They self identified as witches.

  • Ray McKigney||

    Many warlocks were hung in New England.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Depends on which country. England hung witches. Germany and many Central European cultures used burning to execute witches.

  • A Thinking Mind||

    Eh, reading about history is endorsing white supremacy.

  • ozzy||

    Saying the science IS settled is a dumber ideology than anti-vaxxers. The science is never settle there will always be a safer or more effected solution in the future. Lots of vaccines use eggs of which plenty of people are allergic to. Just coming up with a new way to grow the virus will make things safer.

    There are studies out there that do show less chronic health problems with groups of people who do not vaccinate. Here is just one, there were others on groups of certain Amish who do not vaccinate vs standard Americans who do.

    https://archive.fo/oOMgY#selection-5037.0-5037.740

  • Brandybuck||

    As a libertarian I am fully in favor of requiring immunization for the attendance of public schools. If you don't like it go find a private school that will accept your non-immunized child. You have no moral right to inflict a known health hazard onto other people's children. I don't give a shit if you think the hazard is a myth or not, go find yourself a private school that will enroll your disease vector.

  • Juice||

    If you don't like it go find a private school that will accept your non-immunized child.

    In that case, it would be better if the taxes used to support the government school could be put toward the private school.

  • Brandybuck||

    I want the taxes not used to be returned to the taxpayers! As in cut the taxes because we don't spend as much. Vouchers are second best solution, the best is to just get rid of public schools.

  • Juice||

    the best is to just get rid of public government schools

    agreed

  • CE||

    or not collected at all

  • Juice||

    I don't give a shit if you think the hazard is a myth or not

    Do anti-vaxers think the disease is a myth? I thought they blamed the preservatives and additives for the autism and whatnot. Also, there's something about getting 10 different vaccines in one shot when the kid is 3 days old or something. I don't know if there's any validity to any of it, but I never heard anyone say that there's no such thing as whooping cough. There are some truly dumb people out there, though, so they must exist somewhere.

  • Brandybuck||

    It's not that they say the diseases don't exist, it's that they claim there is no risk if to others if their own child is not immunized. They also dispute that these diseases are dangerous. They view them as traditional childhood diseases. What they forget was that dying in childhood was also traditional, in some small part due to these diseases. They think everything is just like chicken pox or shit. They don't understand that if whooping cough does not kill, it's still a horribly awful disease. Babies breaking their own ribs by coughing so hard kind of awful.

  • some guy||

    Yeah, measles and whooping cough are bad, but the anti-vaxxers are lucky smallpox and polio were effectively eradicated. Those two don't mess around.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    From what I understand, measles not that dangerous to most kids (excluding infants). However, it can be quite dangerous for someone who catches measles for the first time as an adult.

  • Brandybuck||

    Tell that to the person hospitalized from measles in the story above. Tell their parents that it's "not that dangerous".

  • Hendu Manchu||

    "if it saves just one life" right?

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    1, Hospitalized is not equal to dead. Measles is more likely to be fatal in adults than in children (again excluding the very young (under 2).

    2. The source document quoted in the article (from the Clark County Public Health department.) actually gives #s of confirmed cases by age group. There were two adult cases, one 19-29 and one 30-39. The age of the hospitalized person was not listed, and could easily be one of the two adults.

  • ozzy||

    Studies are just now coming out about vaccinated vs non-vaccinated, we are talking about all sorts of diseases here and rarely is anything medical cut and dry.

    https://archive.fo/oOMgY#selection-5037.0-5037.739

    "Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following: allergic rhinitis (10.4% vs. 0.4%, p

  • soldiermedic76||

    Measles was a common form of childhood death in the 19th century. It was one of the leading causes. According to the CDC 1 out of every 20 children will develop pneumonia, which is the most common cause of death related to measles. Encephalitis is also a common side effect. This can lead to lifelong neurological problems such as blindness, deafness and seizures. Sterility may occur. Twenty-eight percent of children infected will require hospitalization. There is also a variety of other life long though less severe medical problems.

  • ozzy||

    Prior to widespread vaccine adoption the deaths dropped to zero. I have not been able to find any statistics on the quantity of encephalitis at the time. Currently encephalitis is the number one reason for the vaccine injury court to pay out damages.

    To be honest with why people care so much is beyond me. We as a society are perfectly happy to allow 5000 to die from Tylenol, at least I don't see a big call to ban it. Until measles deaths start happening it really is just not a day to day problem.

    Why take away the freedom to choose for so few long term issues?

  • ||

    Yeah, measles and whooping cough are bad, but the anti-vaxxers are lucky smallpox and polio were effectively eradicated. Those two don't mess around.

    You say this like the two things aren't related. Seems like smallpox would work pretty directly against the autism and anti-vaxxing crowd directly and large swaths of people believed some pretty weird shit, even weirder than vaccines cause autism, when smallpox and polio were still prevalent.

  • ozzy||

    I doubt you will find many so called anti-vaccers that are against all vaccines. Kennedy for example did vaccinate his kids but he just questions when, how much and the necessity of certain vaccines.

    Just an example but the Hepatitis B vaccine is given on the first day of life. If the mother does not have it, all pregnant women should be tested, then the main forms of transmission are needles and sex 99.9%. Personally I would say until puberty it would be better not to let your kid share needles or have sex and give the vaccine at age 10 after the brain has developed some.

  • BYODB||

    Like most rich idiots, they live in the first world while decrying all things that created the first world.

  • some guy||

    Who else would have the time and energy, but a first worlder? Everybody else only protests when they are literally starving to death or being run over by tanks.

  • BYODB||

    They're just too insulated from the real world and really don't understand history or the universe we live in.

  • ||

    In their meager defense, they do stand in opposition of some similar absurdity. A baby coughing hard enough to break its own ribs didn't just develop whooping cough and osteoporosis simultaneously. The baby had to be pretty chronically ill and the family faced with the choice of a 3 day ride to the doctor, which itself might kill the baby, only to have them say "Push fluids and pray." In the more modern era, the choice is/was more likely pay for the doctor's appointment, which may run the risk of child services getting involved, or keep a roof over the kid's head.

    Children being taken by wolves and bitten by rattlesnakes was also a thing. We (mostly) don't insist that kids carry anti-venom and bear spray at all times. People living near each other, performing regular yard work, and localized deforestation have largely resolved those issues incidentally.

    Again, I don't mean to offer a full throated defense of anti-vaxxers, just point out that there are enthusiastic pro-vaxxers on this very forum that are worried about a mutant hybrid of smallpox, H1N1, and ebola converting 60% of the world to puddles of biohazard waste overnight. Or fear mongering about the prevalence of Lyme Disease, mortified by the fact that there are something like 250,000 undiagnosed cases every year.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Your knowledge of communicable diseases is sorely lacking. Pertussis is extremely contagious. It is also extremely dangerous to infants, who cannot be vaccinated but are at the greatest risk for side effects. Treatments is best started during the first stage of symptoms, but symptoms at that stage are so non-specific that many would write it off as the common cold. Broken and bruised ribs are actually fairy common in babies who have advanced to the second stage. Dehydration, pneumonia and secondary infections all can lead to death. Symptoms can last up to three months after infections have cleared. Some children, even after illness is eliminated can have lifelong respiratory complications. The severe fever can result in brain damage, as can the the bradypnea or apnea caused by the severe coughing. Coughing can lead to increased intra cranial pressure, even in a hospitalized infant, which can cause lifelong neurological problems including seizures, deafness blindness and death. This is mild in most but the risk is there for any baby, especially the youngest. Actually, in the first month prognosis is not as positive. Even with advanced care.

  • ||

    Pertussis is extremely contagious.

    False. Pertussis is extremely contagious in close quarters and poor living conditions. Babies are at increased risk/susceptibility largely because they aren't capable of determining their own living conditions and are specifically confined to close quarters.

    Your medical training and background, you certainly realize that the kids have a 78-85% vaccination rate while the parents likely have a significantly lower vaccination rate and an even lower immunity rate, right?

    I'm not saying broken ribs don't occur from coughing and/or that coughing doesn't happen to babies. I'm saying that by the time we get to a baby with pertussis (or other) coughing so hard it's ribs are breaking, we aren't talking about the posh suburbs of Portland where the rich white folks live 20 min. away from the nearest hospital and debate whether to vaccinate their kids before sending them off to elementary school.

  • ||

    Actually, in the first month prognosis is not as positive.

    We aren't talking about a kid who contracted whooping cough. We're talking about a kid who contracted whooping cough *for a month*. How many degrees of separation do you have to reach through, socially, to find someone who knows someone who knows someone who had whooping cough *for a month*?

    Everybody I know who's *dog* has had it didn't let symptoms go for more than a week. I don't know anyone who knows anyone who was symptomatic for more than 72 hrs. before seeking treatment. And plenty of the anti-vaxxers are wholly supportive of post hoc or JIT vaccination/treatment regiments, freely submitting to tetanus and rabies vaccinations should kids be bitten by animals or step on rusty nails (medicine doesn't exactly dictate that you can't have your cake and eat it too and pretty much recommends JIT vaccinations for these diseases).

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    They tend to forget that just because it didn't kill you it can still make you weaker. All of the deaf of disabled kids with polio might want to get their attention.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Actually there is a small but growing number who so dispute germ theory. They believe that diseases are caused by toxins. They believe that people in the past did not die from communicable diseases but as a result of, well it isn't exactly clear what. Toxins and or chakras being out of allignment etc. Some even argue that disease caused death actually never occurred, that events such as the plague were either overblown or a conspiracy.

  • ||

    Actually there is a small but growing number who so dispute germ theory. They believe that diseases are caused by toxins.

    And they aren't, exactly, wrong about all of it. Tetanus, botulism, even pertussis... the toxins are the larger problem. You'll tolerate much larger concentrations of even the same bacteria as long as they aren't producing the toxins.

    Moreover, as Ken Schultz notes below, lots of these toxins follow known pharmacological axioms whereby they will have side effects and not all of the side effects are bad/good. Pertussis toxin, absent bacterial infection (of course), specifically has been shown to be effective in treating a number of other conditions such as hypertension and autoimmune disorders.

    Once again, not saying all the anti-vaxxers are always right, but that to dismiss them all as absolute crazies and declare (y)ourselves intellectually and morally superior out of hand is a obvious and irrational mistake.

  • ozzy||

    Mind boggling but nobody did any serious studies until the year 2000 on unvaccinated vs vaccinated. Here are the results of a study from 2017 650+ kids with an attempt to eliminate other factors such as the different cultures. Studies of Amish that do not vaccinate vs normal Americans could be how they eat and live but they show the same results as this study which tried to eliminate those differences.

    "Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following: allergic rhinitis (10.4% vs. 0.4%, p

  • ozzy||

    No they do not think the disease is a myth they are just comparing the long term consequences of vaccines vs getting the disease. Keep in mind the few years prior to the vaccine use there were zero deaths. Our medical science did not even compare the vaccinated vs non-vaccinated until after 2000. Here is a study done in 2017 showing lots of long term chronic problems with vaccinated vs non-vaccinated. Pretty good study that tried to eliminate other factors like culture and social / economic issues.

    https://archive.fo/oOMgY#selection-5037.0-5037.740

    However you look at it more research is needed before saying perfectly safe and all should be forced. Keep in mind there were zero deaths a few years prior to the measles vaccine being used and zero deaths since. Tylenol which society accepts has killed 3 to 5 thousand every year during that time.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Can we at least repeal truancy laws first?

  • EscherEnigma||

    What state still has truancy laws enforced?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Are they enforced today? Not sure, but they were sure being enforced well into the 90s.

    And if the show The Wire is any guide, they were sure enforcing them in Ballmer.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    And here's an article about a truancy crackdown in 2015.

    My guess is they're not uniformly enforced and "enforcement" is probably a lot of "nudging" by the school. I'm trying to think how much caterwauling would ensue of someone were jailed for truancy.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    I have read about several cases from across the US of the parent's of a truant child being threatened with jail time. I don't know the actual outcomes of those cases.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Check inside some of Kmala Harris' baggage.

  • Culturism||

    I disagree :(

  • Uncle Adolf’s Gas and Grill||

    I have nothing against vaccinations, but.... if the other kids are immunized, why would an unvaccinated kid be a hazard? I thought that was the whole point of vaccination. Do these vaccinations create immunity, or don't they?

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    I believe, but do not have citations, that vaccinations are not 100% protection. But if they are 99% protection, that makes it extremely unlikely that a big enough pool of sick kids can exist.

    The problem is that a big enough pool of actually sick kids can overwhelm some 99% kids. The bigger the unvaccinated pool, the more danger they are.

  • CE||

    so the vaccines don't really work

  • ozzy||

    That is currently an unproven theory. Plenty of the doctors who question vaccines show valid reasons herd immunity just does not work.

  • JWatts||

    "Do these vaccinations create immunity, or don't they?"

    Vaccines aren't 100% effective at creating an immunity.

    "Most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients."

    https://goo.gl/EdzX5G

    Furthermore, Some kids can't be vaccinated because of medical conditions.

  • ||

    Vaccines aren't 100% effective at creating an immunity.

    It goes completely unnoted in all these sorts of stories that if the child vaccination rate is 78-85%, the adult vaccination rate is almost certainly lower and, further, the immunity rate among adults is lower still.

    It's highly likely that most of these adults didn't even receive the MMR but just contracted measles. With an ideal vaccination scheme and good health, immunity is only conferred for about 20 yrs. without a booster.

  • Jgalt1975||

    The standalone measles vaccine was introduced in 1963 and the full MMR has been in use since 1971, so no, it's not "highly likely that most of these adults didn't even receive the MMR" given that about 70% of the US population is 54 or younger.

  • ||

    The regiment introduced in '71 wasn't required and didn't confer complete immunity. The two-dose schedule wasn't developed until '89. Moreover, not all of the states adopted the vaccines immediately and even when the CDC declared measles eradicated in 2000, there were acknowledged pockets of unvaccinated people among (e.g.) Orthodox Jewish (was the vaccine Kosher?), Amish, Christian Science, etc. communities. And, through the magic of information theory, if you can't recall if you ever got the vaccine, properly or not, and it's been more than 20 yrs. since you would have, you are effectively unvaccinated. Even an epidemiologist/virologist wouldn't reasonably assume you were.

    So, yes, 70% of the population is 54 or younger, but what percentage of the population is older than older than 29, isn't or wasn't religious, and can confirm that they got an effective dose? Especially considering when my point isn't, exactly, that all the adults are unvaccinated as much as they are significantly less vaccinated and/or immune than their children.

  • Brandybuck||

    Because not everyone can be vaccinated. It's about the herd immunity. If enough children are vaccinated the disease won't spread. But if enough are not, then it will and it will ravage those that are unable to be vaccination for a variety of reasons.

    Also, a vaccination child may not carry the virus long enough to contract the disease, but can carry the virus long enough to pass it on to their baby brother or elderly grandmother.

  • JFree||

    why would an unvaccinated kid be a hazard?

    Because some kids are too young to be vaccinated or they have an actual risk factor re vaccination (CDC guidelines for who shouldn't get vaccine - pregnant, weakened immune system, is being treated for cancer or other systemic medical treatment, known/serious egg or neomycin allergies, hemophilic, recent blood transfusion, has TB, etc). That group HAS to remain unvaccinated.

    The more unvaccinated people around those folks, the more likely they will be to come into contact with someone who is highly susceptible to measles/etc if the disease vectors into that group of people. Measles is only contagious when it is symptomatic. People who have been successfully vaccinated don't spread measles.

  • JFree||

    the big issue re that group that HAS to remain unvaccinated is that they are already often at the hospital.

    And guess where those people who show measles symptoms go -- to be a vector of that disease?

  • fafalone||

    Does the libertarian position requiring supporting the "right" of parents to beat, molest, and pimp their children too? It's child abuse, and I also could construct a philosophy to defend any one of those as long as my claimed benefits need not be true like anti-vaxxers.

  • susancol||

    If the child only went to the private school and home, that would be okay. But I'm betting mom will take him/her to the grocery store, clothes shopping, little league games and more.

  • Bob Armstrong||

    I don't understand this logic . If the vaccines work then it shouldn't matter if others are unprotected .

  • soldiermedic76||

    Because they aren't 100% effective dumbfuck. And some have age requirements, thus putting those below that age at higher risk. Anyone with a compromised immune system (even as simple as recovering from a bad cold) can be at risk even if vaccinated. Some people can't be vaccinated because of other medical conditions. Etc. Etc. Etc. Fuck that is the dumbest fucking argument there is dipshit.

  • ||

    Anyone with a compromised immune system (even as simple as recovering from a bad cold)

    What clinical chemistry test do we run to definitively diagnose someone's immune system as compromised? Viral load and Immunoglobulin titers? Does it vary based on one disease, many, or other pre-existing conditions?

    Because I get the feeling that, while vaccines do work, there are a lot of vague statistics and fuzzy edges that get hand-waived away. The sort of thing that smug medical professionals would use to, knowingly or not, proclaim intellectual and moral superiority over people who aren't exactly their inferiors and aren't exactly out to do them harm directly. Not to mention leave room for people who are their inferiors, both intellectually and morally, to operate.

  • Gordito||

    AIDS and Chemotherapy are not only the most common reasons someone would be considered to have a 'compromised immune system', but are also pretty cut and dry examples of exactly what that means.

    I'll give it to you that you've remained relatively respectful throughout your posts here, but asserting that there are vague statistics and fuzzy edges focuses on fringe cases, not the most obvious examples.

  • ||

    I'll give it to you that you've remained relatively respectful throughout your posts here, but asserting that there are vague statistics and fuzzy edges focuses on fringe cases, not the most obvious examples.

    Reread what you and soldiermedic76 wrote. I'm not focusing on fuzzy edges and fringe cases. If every bad cold (or even just a considerable portion of them) represents a compromised immune system it seems exceedingly likely that the artifact of a 'compromised immune system' is intrinsically fuzzy and relegates AIDS and chemo to the 'cut and dry' fringe. AIDS only compromises an immune system once. Influenza can do so many times a year. Moreover, influenza is something that, overwhelmingly, should challenge our immune system and it should only be regarded as compromised when emergency medical care is required for survival (not just safe and expedient recovery).

    I try to be respectful because I'm actually on a bit of a tightrope. My wife and I both have advanced degrees and work(ed) in clinical setting and we have prototypical, intellectually lazy anti-vaxxers on one side of the family and crazy (uncertified) hypochondriacs on the other. I'd love to trounce the lazy anti-vaxxers for being dumb and not taking care of their kids, but that only lends ammunition to the other side when we don't run out and get a z-pak and, I shit you not, fill an Oscillococcinum prescription, every time a kid runs a 99-degree fever.

  • Gordito||

    Not everyone can be vaccinated (children too young to receive a given vaccine provide a clear-cut example), so high immunization rates across the board bestow what is called 'Herd Immunity' (see wikipedia for a relatively good explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity).

    Essentially, if nobody is vaccinated, contagious diseases can spread quickly and easily throughout a population, especially if people can be infected for days or weeks at a time without being symptomatic, as is the case with Measles. These people can walk around for a long period exposing more people to infection without ever realizing they're sick until it's too late. Herd Immunity changes that, by preventing the people exposed to the disease from actually developing the measles.

    In other words, without herd immunity, that guy walking around creates a ton of new infections, but, with herd immunity, his ability to infect other people is either drastically reduced or entirely eliminated. Making it harder for diseases to hop from person to person is essential to protecting people who cannot be vaccinated (again, think of children too young, along with people receiving chemo or those with AIDS for easy examples).

  • ||

    I know what herd immunity is. I likely sat through the same virology and epidemiology classes you did or was a graduate student under M.D./Ph.D.s who wrote your textbooks or you did a rotation under.

  • ozzy||

    You should give up you libertarian label if you agree with public schools.

    Since you are also talking about "pubic good" by forcing vaccinations then you should probably want to obese kids out also. They end up costing society more.

    Nobody has died or even had long term health problems with the recent measles outbreaks so this scare garbage is just that. Few are hurt by the vaccines and few are hurt by the measles but everybody wants to force others in the way they believe. Welcome to Democracy not freedom.

  • Vaccine-choice||

    Sure, but give me the tax dollars for my kid to do this. If you implemented actual school choice, for many reasons, including vaccine choice, public schools would die. Hey, maybe, if you are actually libertarian, we can find common ground on vaccine choice!

    But, I will only give you credit if you disclose your medical records and prove to me that you practice what you preach: are you up to date on all your vaccines? Every vaccine wanes over time, typically 10 years or less. So, if you are an adult over the age of 28, you got all new vaccines, right????

  • Jerryskids||

    To hell with the measles outbreak, when's the CDC going to issue a call for a vaccine against the plague of Kennedys?

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    plague of Kennedys

    Too close to an existing band name.

  • Juice||

    It's J. R. R. Martin's next series.

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    If it doesn't end with someone shouting out "Who killed the Kennedys", I'm not watching.

  • TonyT||

    You have to hand it to them; 10 out of 10 kids who die of measles do not get Autism.

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    Fake News - autism isn't real.

    /Dajjal

  • ||

    Also, you can develop autism (or whatever) exceedingly young, well before contracting measles at the age of 10.

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    38 of 53 cases were under 10.

  • ||

    Research has shown that a diagnosis of autism at age 2 can be reliable, valid, and stable. [Read summaryExternal]

    Whatever portion of kids with both measles and autism died, they had autism before they contracted measles.

    I like a good dead autistic baby joke as much as the next guy, but that's no excuse for ignorance.

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    Research has shown that Reason commenters a diagnosis of autism at age 2 can be reliable, valid, and stable.

    I question this research.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Actually, there is growing evidence that autism may be able to be diagnosed pre-natally and symptoms are evident in infancy.

  • ||

    Actually, there is growing evidence that autism may be able to be diagnosed pre-natally and symptoms are evident in infancy.

    I don't disagree, but I don't think we have to wade into the weeds of diagnosing autism, diagnosing a physiological artifact and calling it autism, and experiencing/diagnosing the 'end-stage' symptoms of autism to definitively say that the only way measles prevents children from developing autism is to kill their parents prior to conception.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Everyone knows that autism is caused by commenting on Reason.

  • $park¥ is the Worst||

    *blank stare*

  • Brandybuck||

    I thought it was caused by reading Reason comments.

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    *blank stare*

  • EscherEnigma||

    Don't libel autistics that way.

  • Tony||

    *Rocks and flaps*

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Anti-vaxxers gave my people blankets infected with measles and autism.

  • Ray McKigney||

    Chicken and egg, really.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Gary Johnson got 5% of the vote in Clark County in 2016!

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    A measly 5%?

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    Jokes like that are ... spotty.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    Jokes like that will lead to a rash of objections.

  • CE||

    quit needling his supporters

  • ElvisIsReal||

    We actually cast electoral votes for Ron Paul in 2008, after a hilarious and bitter state convention in which the McCain camp walked out trying to deny us a quorum.

  • Aloysious||

    Bah. Everyone knows vaccines cause rabbititus.

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    The solution here is obvious. Military-enforced quarantine of the affected area followed by a MOAB strike.

  • some guy||

    Yep. 85% immunization rate is not enough for herd immunity in measles. It is known.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    plague-holes.

    This was never my nickname... ever.

  • some guy||

    Crusty on the other hand...

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    What about plaque-holes? Are you a dentist?

  • some guy||

    Even as a libertarian I still wrestle with whether refusing vaccinations for your child should count as child endangerment. And if your unvaccinated kid ends up dying, should you be charged with manslaughter? Where do you draw the line between family autonomy and protecting innocent lives?

    For now I think I lean towards letting the parents do what they want, so long as their kid isn't allowed to attend school.

  • BYODB||

    You should be allowed, I think, not to vaccinate. It's placing your unimunized kid into public schools in close proximity to other children that can cause actual harm to others minding their own business in a responsible way.

  • CE||

    not if they're not sick

  • Longtobefree||

    Not allowed in (public, I presume) schools? What about the rest of public spaces, where the vulnerable elderly may be?

    The older I get, the less I like sniffling coughing sneezing kids running around my grocery stores.
    Democrats notwithstanding, Medicare ain't all that great.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    So far, 53 people have been diagnosed with the communicable disease, of which 47 were unimmunized and five others are still unverified.

    HIPAA VIOLATION

  • Longtobefree||

    Anonymous group reporting. Exempt.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Only a HIPAA violation if you include information that can be used to identify individuals.

  • CE||

    humungous outbreak, I thought. sounds like a few dozen stray cases. Like the big outbreak at Disneyland caused by anti-vaxxers, except it turned out to be caused by European tourists.

  • Priscilla King||

    Hello...those who are afraid of measles can get themselves immunized, so what have they to fear? The unvaccinated are making their own choice.

    Measles used to be a rite of passage for kids. There's a consensus among baby-boomers and the older generation: For most people it was more uncomfortable than *most* strains of flu. But not much. It's not a deadly disease like typhus or cholera!

  • EscherEnigma||

    The unvaccinated are making their own choice.


    Not at all. The unvaccinated had the choice made for them by their parents. In most states, you can't get vaccines without parental permission until you're 18.

  • susancol||

    "Measles used to be a rite of passage for kids." With an associated death toll as well as a toll of other permanent injuries.

  • soldiermedic76||

    First: vaccinations are not 100% effective (rarely 95% effective but better than 0%).
    Second: it was not a mild inconvenience, it was a leading cause of childhood death and also lifelong chronic medical conditions.
    Third: small pox in it's day was also seen as a rite of passage because most children in Europe would become infected, but mortality was estimated to be 70%. Just because it is seen as a rite of passage of when no alternative exists, doesn't mean it is benign.

  • soldiermedic76||

    This was in reply to Priscilla's hogwash but fucking reason is being a bitch today.

  • Echospinner||

    Edward Jenner. He carefully logged his observations about cowpox and smallpox. You can still find what he wrote and presented.

    Keep up the good work soldier medic.

    Air goes in and out. Blood goes round and round. Fight.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The "hygiene hypothesis" explanation for the explosion in food allergies and autoimmune disorders in the developed world over recent decades is better supported by the data, but there really is a connection between fewer kids getting various diseases and the incidence of kids developing food allergies and autoimmune disorders.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Since the 1950s, rates of multiple sclerosis, Crohn's disease, type 1 diabetes, and asthma have soared by 300% or more (1). Similar graphs depict concurrent spikes in hay fever and food allergies (2).

    Mirroring this alarming surge in autoimmune and allergic disorders are simultaneous sharp declines in the incidence of mumps, measles, tuberculosis, and other infectious diseases in developed countries, thanks to the advent of vaccines and antibiotics, and to improved hygiene. In the 1990s, scientists began to suspect that two trends were connected: Perhaps the reduction in infections was causing human immune systems to malfunction in some way.

    . . . .

    Prevalence of food allergy in preschool children is now as high as 10% in Western countries, but remains just 2% in areas like mainland China (4). The number of new cases of type 1 diabetes (T1D) in Finland per year is 62.3 per every 100,000 children, compared with just 6.2 in Mexico and 0.5 in Pakistan (5). Ulcerative colitis, a form of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), is twofold higher in Western Europe than in Eastern Europe—6.5 per 100,000 people versus 3.1 per 100,000 (6).

    In each of these disorders, either the immune system is overreacting to a trigger, such as pollen, peanuts, or pollution, or it's attacking tissues it shouldn't, such as beta cells in the pancreas in the case of T1D and in the intestines in IBD.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....MC5320962/

  • Ken Shultz||

    I find the hygiene hypothesis persuasive--despite its imperfections--because it also accounts for exceptions, like why American kids who grow up on dairy farms (exposed to cow manure and drinking raw milk) have food allergies and autoimmune disease rates that are more in line with those of kids from the developing world. Parasitic worm infections have been shown to be effective in mitigating the symptoms of IBD.

    The antivax people are probably very wrong in their approach, and no doubt they're hurting people with their bad conclusions, but their concerns about the connections between falling infectious disease rates and the explosion of autoimmune disorders is not entirely unfounded. They're just falling victim to the ol' Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "It also accounts for exceptions, like why American kids who grow up on dairy farms (exposed to cow manure and drinking raw milk) have food allergies and autoimmune disease rates that are more in line with those of kids from the developing world."

    I don't suppose it's necessary to point out that American kids who grow up on dairy farms are vaccinated at rates that are similar to other kids in the developing world.

    That data would seem to push the antivax argument off the table.

    P.S. I wouldn't suggest feeding your kids raw milk either. Instead of trying to indoctrinate kids into whatever the progressives are upset about this week, maybe we should start teaching people some basic risk assessment. Yeah, I know, the last thing politicians in a democracy want is to educated voters who can think critically and for themselves.

    I can dream.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "I don't suppose it's necessary to point out that American kids who grow up on dairy farms are vaccinated at rates that are similar to other kids in the developing [developed] world."

    Fixed!

  • soldiermedic76||

    You are full of shit. Guess what rural farm kids are vaccinated at rates equal or greater than urban areas. Where are outbreaks occuring, urban areas not rural areas. Vaccines are an important part of raising livestock, especially dairy cattle. You think they'll vaccinate their livestock but choose not to vaccinate their kids?

  • soldiermedic76||

    In fact, I work daily with farmers and ranchers. I grew up in a farm town and my first job was working on a farm. Most every farmer I know thinks the anti-vaxxers are the dumbest people around and associate them with dipshits from Portland or Seattle (where the outbreaks are occuring, Clark county is part of the greater Portland metropolitan area), last year's outbreak in Washington was in Seattle and neighboring urban areas

  • Nardz||

    Ken Shultz|2.13.19 @ 5:42PM|#
    "I don't suppose it's necessary to point out that American kids who grow up on dairy farms are vaccinated at rates that are similar to other kids in the developing [developed] world."

    I don't have much of an opinion on vaccination, other than noting I don't get flu shots and do just fine. Got h1n1 from a baby in my early 20s, had severe fever for 3 days, didn't do much but sleep and not go to doctor, got better, don't get sick much now 10 years later.
    Human immune system development is definitely regressing, if only because the weak survive, as we have much more done for us than we develop naturally.
    Don't know if I had a point.
    Just an observation

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Guess what rural farm kids are vaccinated at rates equal or greater than urban areas."

    My original statement was "Fixed!" almost six hours before you responded to it.

    The point is that if kids on diary farms are vaccinated at similar rates to other kids in the developed world and yet they only experience food allergies and autoimmune diseases at rates of kids in the developed world, then the hygiene theory does a better job of explaining that exception than vaccinations do. That's why the antivax argument gets pushed off the table.

    So what did we learn from this?

    1) I'm not full of shit.

    2) You respond to what you read without reading the whole thing.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "The point is that if kids on diary farms are vaccinated at similar rates to other kids in the developed world and yet they only experience food allergies and autoimmune diseases at rates of kids in the developed [developing] world then the hygiene theory does a better job of explaining that exception than vaccinations do."

    Fixed!

    See how that works?

    Now, let's see if you go off half-cocked on this one.

  • soldiermedic76||

    I couldn't tell if it was two trolls using the same name arguing past each other, which I have seen on here.

  • freedomscribe||

    For a publication with the name Reason, you sure like to publish knee jerk articles that could come right out of the pages of the NY Times. Take the title. "Anti-Vaxxers Responsible for Yet Another Outbreak of Measles" Then you mention that these amazingly powerful families (no more than 48) caused the resurgence of a measles strain that had already infected 83,000 people in Eastern Europe. So clearly the vector HAD to be from unvaccinated carriers and if all the foolish parents had taken their kids in for there shots there would be no outbreaks. And of course there are no significant side effects and everyone would live happily ever after - because the CDC says so! Just because a leftist believes something, does not make it false. Just because one activist is a loon, does not make the science settled. Use a little reason. Evaluate the evidence. (There is some you know)

  • Ken Shultz||

    "So clearly the vector HAD to be from unvaccinated carriers and if all the foolish parents had taken their kids in for there shots there would be no outbreaks."

    The effectiveness of herd immunity in minimizing exposure when there are outbreaks is well documented.

  • Jury Nullification||

    My understanding is that it is well documented with regard to natural immunity and not vaccine-induced immunity.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Not sure what you're going for here.

    I don't believe any vaccines are 100% effective. Some of them may only be effective for 85% of the people who are vaccinated. The 15% (in this example) are better protected from infection when the other 85% of the people who might infect them are not susceptible to infection. If the people around you can't give it to you because they're immune, then it doesn't matter why you're not immune. It just matters that they are immune.

    The fact that the herd is vaccinated means that the chances of the disease spreading and reaching you is significantly reduced. That is what is meant by "herd immunity". Those for whom the vaccine was ineffective must rely on the people around them not getting infected in order to avoid infection, and when the herd around them has an 85% immunity rate, the pathogen will not spread as far and wide as it would have without that herd immunity.

    Herd immunity protects those who for whom the vaccine was ineffective--regardless of whether that lack of immunity is because a vaccine failed or because someone failed to vaccinate their children. The only difference between them is that the vaccinated kid did his part to protect the herd, and the unvaccinated kid is subjecting the 15% to a higher risk of infection.

  • Libertymike||

    Don't listen to the Monsanto man.

  • Libertymike||

    As Dr. David Brownstein recently noted, the claim that vaccines were responsible for the dramatic declines in death for illnesses such as the measles, mumps, diphtheria, pertussis is "fake news" as "the rates were already declining dramatically before the mass vaccination program began."

    Dr. Brownstein asseverates that "one of the best indicators of the health of a country is the infant mortality rate. Researchers correlated the number of vaccines given to infants and the mortality rate for ages five and under. Guess who gave the most vaccines and guess who had the highest infant mortality rate? If you guessed the US, you win."

    Dr. Brownstein writes, "[p]seudoscience? There is no greater example of pseudoscience than saying it is safe to inject toxic items like mercury, aluminum, and formaldehyde into any living being, much less a newborn infant."

    Who you gonna believe, Dr. Brownstein or the Monsanto man and the vaccination vampires?

  • Tu­lpa||

    Formaldehyde is naturally present in the human body.

    Your Dr. Brownstein sounds moronic.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Dr. David Brownstein is a know quack who peddles in the pseudoscience know as holistic medicine. His so called theories are both scientifically and historically inaccurate. Yes deaths did decline, but that was related to antibiotics being introduced which helped decrease deaths from secondary infections. However, primary infections M&M remained high and dropped dramatically after the introduction of the stand alone vaccine.

  • soldiermedic76||

    He also peddles in such nonsense as iodine is not necessary for thyroid function, that gluten And dairy are bad for you and should be eliminated. He has had multiple complaints filed against him for failure to deliver materials that people have paid for (his largest income makers are books he has authored and miracle cures he has developed). It is telling that you used him as your reference.

  • ||

    The effectiveness of herd immunity in minimizing exposure when there are outbreaks is well documented.

    I disagree. Or rather, am not convinced in light of confounding effects from the hygiene hypothesis linked above. Ultimately, the assumption of herd immunity is terrible at minimizing exposure relative to the certainty of quarantine.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "So clearly the vector HAD to be from unvaccinated carriers and if all the foolish parents had taken their kids in for there shots there would be no outbreaks."

    That's what I was responding to.

    Yes, there will still be outbreaks, even if every parent vaccinates their kids, but the chances of an outbreak reaching any one kid in the herd is minimized when the whole herd is vaccinated.

    Quarantine is something that happens after there's an outbreak. It isn't an either/or thing. I'm sure they keep kids with measles out of the school as soon as they realize the kid has the measles.

  • soldiermedic76||

    Measles was considered eradicated in the US in 2001. Now we are having larger outbreaks every year. Small pox was eliminated because everyone was vaccinated. So yes herd immunity does work. We see it not just I humans but in livestock.

  • ||

    Measles was considered eradicated in the US in 2001. Now we are having larger outbreaks every year.

    You, and they, are/were wrong. The CDC declared it eradicated in the US in 2000. In 2001, there were 116 confirmed cases of measles across the US. You've been fed and accepted a false notion of perfection with regard to vaccines. Again, not saying that they don't work by any means, but that while they have defeated some mighty foes, their myth is somewhat exaggerated.

  • ||

    Small pox was eliminated because everyone was vaccinated. So yes herd immunity does work.

    Re-read your virology/epidemiology textbook. 'Vaccinate everyone' =/= herd immunity. Vaccinating your way back towards or below the critical population or permeability threshold is herd immunity. And, again, I'm not saying herd immunity can't ever work. I'm saying there's a textbook definition that works according to calculus in well-controlled situations and that the concept gets mythologically inflated to non-textbook, multi-variate, differential systems, with modest control.

  • ||

    We see it not just I humans but in livestock.

    Care to name the farms that do so? My experience with farms at and well above hobby level is that only the smallest of populations (

  • ||

    Arg!

    We see it not just I humans but in livestock.

    Care to name the farms that do so? My experience with farms at and well above hobby level is that only the smallest of populations (less than 20 head) rely on or even utilize herd immunity. The rest vaccinate the entire stock, 100%. Members that can't be vaccinated get quarantined or culled. This is done as a matter of common sense and (without implication) by law.

    I don't mean to say you're lying or wrong, but I have a feeling you don't know any farmers who find out a significant number of their herd have a viral infection and only immunize 80-90% of the rest of the herd and, if you do know them, you don't let it be known to your other farmer clients/acquaintances who would literally kick your ass out of their nurseries and farrowing barns. I wouldn't brand yo a stupid, backwater full-statist herd immunizer (OK, there's a chance I *would* do such a thing), you just haven't thought critically about the term herd immunity and how it does or doesn't work in practice.

  • Morbo||

    For a publication with the name Reason

    DRINK!

  • soldiermedic76||

    48 cases not 48 families. However, Clark county has a rate of non-vaccination greater than 20%. Rates of vaccinations that drop below about 70% increase the risk of an epidemic rather then an outbreak. The lack of science knowledge just amazes me. Do you also believe that cell phones cause cancer? That microwaves cause cancer? That acupuncture works or holistic medicine? Maybe you believe in exorcisms to treat seizures and psychaitric disorders.

  • NashTiger||

    In which anti-Science religious backwater did this happen? Those stupid clinger Republicans, RALK was right about them holding their betters back

  • Unicorn Abattoir||

    The conservative enclave of Clark County. If fact, I've heard it's so far to the right that more people voted for Clinton than Jill Stein.

  • Brandybuck||

    Clark County is only conservative in comparison to it's crazy-as-fuck proggy neighbor to the South.

  • ||

    Shelbyville?

  • Tony||

    It is ironic that the libertarians are advocating for universal social engineering while the Slaters are the ones urging calm.

    But then libertarianism isn't really about not forcing other people to do stuff, it's mostly about trolling the libtards.

    There are people on the internet who do that with much more conviction, you know.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The overwhelming majority of libertairans here oppose forcing parents to vaccinate their children against their will. Some of them may support letting antivax kids home school if their parents don't want to take reasonable precautions when sending their kids to public schools. Those few libertarians here who support more coercive measures do so on the basis that criminal negligence is a violation of someone rights, and if my child is harmed or dies because of your criminal negligence, then you should be appropriately punished for it after a jury of your peers decides unanimously that you're guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Nothing you've said here seems to be as you've said it is.

  • Tony||

    But you wouldn't want to live in a world with no precautions taken for herd immunity. Not a world where most people were libertarians in that way, right? Without some kind of "coercion" we'd have a bunch of parents not bothering.

    You want freedom for thee, just as long as everyone else stays in line.

    I'm trying to say everything you believe is bullshit, and you should stop trying to squeeze all of human experience into the tiny box of political maxims you're comfortable with.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Without some kind of "coercion" we'd have a bunch of parents not bothering."

    That's about where your mind is, Tony. Not mine. Not everyone else's. Just yours.

    The primary reason I avoid violating other people's rights is not because I'm afraid of the government. If the government disappeared tomorrow, no one would have anything more to fear from me than they did the day before.

    If the only reason you don't violate other people's rights is because you're afraid of the government, then you should go see a psychiatrist and tell them that you're afraid you may be a psychopath and it's distorting your view of the real world. Maybe there's something they can do to help you!

    Meanwhile, hundreds of millions of people give money and do charitable things for each other, every day, because they care about other people.

    P.S. You know who else didn't realize that altruism was an evolutionary adaptation?

    http://www.nature.com/news/201.....0.427.html

  • Tony||

    So you acknowledge that there are psychopaths who would engage in all manner of antisocial behavior if not for government coercion... and you want to let them loose.

    We don't need laws for most of us who are decent. We need them for the few of us who aren't. Who ever said different?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "So you acknowledge that there are psychopaths who would engage in all manner of antisocial behavior if not for government coercion... and you want to let them loose."

    Yes, that's exactly what I said: People who violate our rights, e.g., murderers, rapists, thieves, and arsonists, should be free to do so without any fear of facing a judge and jury, and that's what libertarianism is all about.

    Either that, or you're being willfully obtuse.

  • NashTiger||

    Yes, we acknowledge there are psychopaths. Because are all too familiar with your work here on this board

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Homeschooling is worse than giving kids anthrax.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I suppose it depends on who your parents are.

  • Vaccine-choice||

    How are you going to prove my criminal negligence if I don't vaccinate? Ever go into an old folks home and see a sign that says "recently vaccinated not welcome." It actually happens all the time because people who are vaccinated will shed the virus and potentially affect those around them. Are you keeping your kids home from school after vaccinating? You also realize that by vaccinating your children, your children can still carry the disease and spread it, but they won't necessarily receive the ill affects of it. So for the cancer kid who can't be vaccinated, your vaccinated kid might make him sick by spreading a disease, or even shedding a vaccine just received.

    The problem with vaccine science is that much is not settled, sort of like global warming (wherein even less is settled).

    The answer is to be libertarian; give people choices. Eliminate vaccine court and make manufacturers liable for their own product. And give out school vouchers for people to educate as they see fit....picking and choosing places that accept or don't accept vaccinated kids.

  • Cynical Asshole||

    Robert Kennedy Jr. raves that vaccinations cause "ADD, ADHD, speech delay, autism, food allergy, autoimmune diseases."

    I suspect he's just trying to find some excuse for why he's such a retard. E.g., "I'm a retarded aspy doucheburger, I was vaccinated as a child, therefore vaccines cause autism. QED."

  • ||

    Autism caused the Kennedys.

  • Echospinner||

    After all, it was you and me.

  • awildseaking||

    What exactly is the Libertarian policy on vaccines? Because we know they work, the autism scare is bunk science, and unlike most other things, vaccines don't just affect you. You can infect people around you and violate the NAP by not getting vaccinated. Does that mean the government can force people to vaccinate? Or banish them to anti vaxxer colonies so they can't infect us? Most of the options for preserving our freedom to be vaccinated and healthy involve rather authoritarian regimes to stop anti vaxxers.

  • Ray McKigney||

    Yeah, what's the deal, Reason?

  • Ken Shultz||

    Once we agree that we should all be free to make choices for ourselves, we don't need to agree on much else. And just as our rights can sometimes overlap and contradict each other, there may be good libertarian arguments for doing different things.

    I think it's reasonable to require kids in public schools to be vaccinated (with some rare exceptions). If parents don't want to vaccinate their kids, then they should find a private school that doesn't require it, or they should home school their children. It should be up to the parents.

    I also think that if the government wants to force somebody to inject something into their bodies, it should at the very least only be after the defendant has been convicted by a jury of his peers of a legitimate crime (one in which someone's rights were violated) unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, from a libertarian perspective, the fact that you've increased someone else's risk of having their rights violated isn't enough for the government to inject you or your children with something against your will. You must actually have violated someone's rights.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Take drunk driving for example. Yes, drunk drivers put us all at risk, but that doesn't justify throwing people in prison for manufacturing and distributing beer. If you want to go after people who've gotten drunk and killed somebody by drunk driving, then you have to wait until after they've actually done that. Sentencing people to be injecting with something against their will when they haven't violated anyone's rights yet is not compatible with a free society.

  • Libertymike||

    Drunk driving, per se, should not be a criminal offense.

    Hence, there should be no penal consequences, administrative, civil, or criminal, for operating under the influence unless you have caused harm to others. Put another way, there should be no loss of license, no fines, and certainly no arrests for driving drunk.

    We agree.

  • Echospinner||

    Oh wait until you have caused a human to be destroyed.

    Bullshit Ken.

    You knew not to get behind the wheel. Negligence is real. It is harm caused because the driver was not capable of safely driving. Drink a half bottle of whiskey and pilot a passenger aircraft and tell me that is OK.

  • Libertymike||

    Probably ill advised.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I didn't say it was okay to drive drunk.

    I said we shouldn't prohibit the manufacturing and distribution of beer in order to prevent drunk driving.

    You shouldn't be forced to vaccinate your kids if you're, for instance, homeschooling them. Forcing people to vaccinate their children in order to prevent contagious incidents involving your children that may or may not even happen is like prohibiting the distribution of beer to try to stop people from driving drunk.

  • EscherEnigma||

    Yes, drunk drivers put us all at risk, but that doesn't justify throwing people in prison for manufacturing and distributing beer.


    ?

    That's not drunk driving you're arguing against, that's prohibition you're arguing against.

    Did you just try to hide an argument against drunk driving being a crime by talking about the bartender not being guilty of drunk driving?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Yes, drunk drivers put us all at risk, but that doesn't justify throwing people in prison for manufacturing and distributing beer."

    There's a difference between driving drunk, on one hand, and killing someone because you're driving drunk, on the other, just like there's a difference between refusing to vaccinate your children, on one hand, and someone else's child dying because you didn't vaccinate your own child and sent him to school, on the other.

    My analogy acknowledges that difference.

  • Juice||

    If parents don't want to vaccinate their kids, then they should find a private school that doesn't require it, or they should home school their children. It should be up to the parents.

    Paying for the government schools is not their choice though.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Unfortunately, but two wrongs don't make a right either.

    Do you imagine that violating the First Amendment by teaching creationism in public schools is okay because fundamentalist parents are forced to pay for the teaching of evolution in public schools--even though they send their kids to private, fundamentalist schools?

    The solution to making people pay for schools when they choose not to send their kids to them is to privatize the school system. The solution is not to put children everywhere at risk of easily preventable diseases unnecessarily.

  • fafalone||

    Why are you and everyone else so focused on private vs public school. What makes that different from anywhere else the unvaccinated kids would mingle with other kids and the general public? Even most homeschooled kids get taken to the park, or sports, or the store. Why would only private schooling be required?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Why are you and everyone else so focused on private vs public school."

    We're talking about public policy.

    Why would the government set policy for private schools? They're private. Private schools should be free top set whatever policies they want in a free society--so long as they don't violate anyone's rights or accept money from the government.

    If you don't want to send your kids to a private school that doesn't require vaccinations, there's an easy way to avoid that. Don't pay to send them to that private school. Public schools don't work like that. They take taxpayer money. The flip side of "no taxation without representation" is that so long as I'm paying the bills, I get to have my say in how policy is set--so long as those policies don't violate anyone's rights.

    Claro?

  • Echospinner||

    Public health is an issue for libertarians.

    Tuberculosis is an example. If you are sitting next to me on a bus coughing out TB and I get infected you have caused me harm.

    That is not covered by the NAP, or is it.

    Let us say the docs told you you have TB and we can give you the medicine to cure it. You chose to ignore and not take the meds.

    Now I have it because of your stupid decision. You did not intend harm but clearly caused it.

    A minarchist accepts a role for public health the same as fire, natural disaster, basic defense or other things which can only be dealt with on that level.

    Medicine because of another principle cannot force anything.

  • Libertymike||

    If A has TB and he is sitting next to B on the bus, B should hop off the bus, Gus.

  • Echospinner||

    B has no way of knowing.

    Make a new plan Stan.

  • Libertymike||

    I don't mean to be coy Roy, but B's lack of omniscience isn't A's problem....

  • EscherEnigma||

    Pretty sure that even libertarians should be able to recognize that contaminating common resources is a problem.

  • Libertymike||

    You bet - that's why I always told my kids and my nieces and nephews to do what I say and not do what I did when I was their age: pee in the pool.

  • Echospinner||

    It is now for B.

    For you and I the TB problem is managed. You do not think much about it, or measles.

    It happens because, well do not worry. Somebody is keeping that beat going.

    I like drums. Steve Gadd was a legendery drummer who played that riff in the Paul Simon original. Many people miss that. The poet and the drummer.

  • Libertymike||

    Count me as one who did miss it, but I just did some googling and binging and discovered that Mr. Gadd's percussion assisted Steely Dan in Aja - WOW! That is in my top 10 drumming riffs of all time.

    He apparently assisted Paul McCartney in his solo album, Pipes of Peace, one tune of which I play on the piano - So Bad. I don't know if Gadd was involved in that song as there's not much noteworthy going on in the percussive realm, but the song struck me from the first time I heard it in college. It is a wistful ballad.

    I love me some McCartney ballads. Speaking of great percussive play, how about Silly Love Songs? Trying to play the full arrangement in an effort to capture the percussive element is hard to play on the piano. The Fake Book don't cut it for some songs.

  • EscherEnigma||

    To be fair, a lot of libertarian principles, if taken to the logical conclusion, only work if you banish dissidents. So banishing anti-vaxxers wouldn't be out of line.

  • ||

    Reason hasn't gotten over Trump's election, hate walls and love illegal aliens, probably put pineapple on their pizza and publish Dalmia.

    THEY HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS.

  • Echospinner||

    Measles is so uncommon in the US that few people know what it is.

    The virus is in the family Paramyxoviridae. It is an RNA virus and only vertebrates host. It encapsulates. When it infects it generates virions with a protein outer core. A cough can expel many of those and they can infect for a week or more.

    The disease is not at all benign. It can result in severe complications including death.

    MMR vaccine has near 95% rate of immunization. One dose at one year and a booster at six months later.

    The long debunked link to autism is over.

    I challenge anyone to prove it after many studies.

  • GroundTruth||

    The good news is that for anyone worried about contracting measles, there is a simple solution: a proven vaccine.

    The bad news is that those of us who are vaccinated have to pick up the costs for those whose parents were gullible enough to not get their kids immunized in a timely fashion.

  • SQRLSY One||

    And somehow, the feds can NEVER find the $1 million or so that would be needed to investigate the Amish-Autism-vaccinations link!!!

    http://thevaccinereaction.org/.....in-people/

    Health Lessons from the Amish, Mennonites and Other Plain People

    Vaccinations "per se" may not be at fault, but the shock to baby's immune system from ten gabillion immunizations at the same time. They should be spaced out, less at a time, is one theory.

    The feds won't pay for an Amish epidemiological study, because the medical folks would get sued for ten quadrillion dollars!!!! (If they found the link to be true).

    That is all, folks!!!!

  • Libertymike||

    Most Righteous Feelz -

    Check out Jury Nullification's 5:08 post and teddy pump's post at 5:16.

    Also, please see my post above in which I quote Dr. David Brownstein who tells it like it is.

    DO NOT BELEIVE MONSANTO MAN!

    VAINQUISH THE VACCINATION VAMPIRES!

  • SQRLSY One||

    Amen and Thanx Mulch!!!

  • Tu­lpa||

    Wow you're an anti-vax retard on top of being a regular retard.

    Don't blame it on vaccinations man, you're retarded, blame your parents.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Thank you for your deep wisdom and arguments and links that amount to NOTHING, other than childish insults!

    Have you ever considered getting a brain transplant? I'm not sure if there is ANYTHING other than a brain transplant that will help you. If there's any other hope for you, I haven't much of a clue...

  • Tu­lpa||

    You don't deserve anything but insults you fucking retard.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Whoa, the tremendous intellectual genius of Tulpa keep right on Tulpooping!!!

  • Tu­lpa||

    You hold a position on par with holocaust denial in its stupidity.

    You are an imbecile and have proven it definitively.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Says the one who never bothers to post thoughtful comments, humor, links, or ANYTHING other than potty-mouthed, grade-school lever insults!

    PLEASE go to kindergarten.com or some such!!!!

  • Tu­lpa||

    You name check me in an unrelated post, and I don't even know who you are.

    I matter to you. You're nobody.

  • SQRLSY One||

    I'm nobody, so you spend all night responding to me? Your head voices are also nobody, you know, and I bet you spend a lot of time arguing with them as well!!!

    Stop taking therapy from you head voices PLEASE, for your own good!!! ANY human is near-guaranteed to give you better advice than your head voices!

    Since you seem to be utterly resistant to my repeated good advice... Good Night!

  • Tu­lpa||

    You're an anti vaxxer. You're on par with pedophiles, Mr. Nobody.

  • SQRLSY One||

    You're an anti-rational-discourse fountain of brainless insults and lies. You're on par with Donald Trump! But even far uglier, I'll bet!

  • Tu­lpa||

    Don't you have some children to fuck... I mean kill with your ignorance Mr nobody?

  • SQRLSY One||

    A careful reading of my original post shows that I am not an "anti-vaxxer"; I am PRO gathering more data, which the feds, so far, refuse to do.

    You, on the other hand, are clearly ANTI-rational -discourse, and PRO brainless insults all day! Could you PLEASE find some other web site, where readers enjoy reading utterly brainless, evil, and stupidly malicious insults?

  • Tu­lpa||

    I bet you think the jews gassed themselves, you sad antivax nobody.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Go try and grow some neurons, please!!!!

  • Tu­lpa||

    Then they threw themselves in the oven. God Nobody, you antivax people are disgusting

  • emmanuel||

    Which "holocaust" are you referring to? The one in Ukraine in 1906 that was killing 6 million Jews as reported by the New York Times? Or the one in 1912 that was killing 6 million Jews in Russia as reported by the New York Times? Or is it the one that the New York Times claimed happened between 1942 and 1945 and reported to the public in 1947. Or is it the holocaust of between 19 million and 27 million Russians that lost their lives during WWII?

  • Tu­lpa||

    It doesn't matter he's an idiot antivax tard he's worse than a denier of any or all of them.

  • Tu­lpa||

    Also, you sound fucking stupid acting as if you don't know that colloquially there is only one "the" holocaust.

  • Nardz||

    I was on the fence, mostly because I don't think about it, but seeing that sqrlsy is anti-vax has convinced me that pro vax is the correct position

  • CaveMan||

    Unrestricted immigration has more to do with the current outbreaks than citizens exercising their right to not take medical care. Build the wall and you will see these outbreaks slow and stop.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Will the wall keep Tulpa out? Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!

    I'm not a wall supporter, generally, but if it is GUARANTEED to keep Tulpa out, I will have to reconsider...

  • Tu­lpa||

    Living in your head rent free.

  • SQRLSY One||

    Bark and growl, Tulpoopy...

  • Tu­lpa||

    Think about me all the time nobody who doesn't matter.

  • SQRLSY One||

    You meant to say...

    Think about me all the time AS A nobody who doesn't matter.

    And I will take that advice!

  • Tu­lpa||

    Who are you? Seriously I have no idea, because you don't matter.

  • SQRLSY One||

    I'm the Anti-Tulpa, who actually has a brain. Brain opposes anti-Brain, anti-Brain = Tulpa.

  • Tu­lpa||

    So nobody, like I said.

    Well, keep me in your thougbts Mr. Nobody who doesn't matter, I'm glad I matter to you.

  • SQRLSY One||

    I'd rather be a nobody than an active force for Evil and for Stupid on the planet, like you.

  • Tu­lpa||

    It looks like you're lucky and get to be both Mr Nobody, because you're anti vaxxer too.

  • SQRLSY One||

    A careful reading of my original post shows that I am not an "anti-vaxxer"; I am PRO gathering more data, which the feds, so far, refuse to do.

    You, on the other hand, are clearly ANTI-rational -discourse, and PRO brainless insults all day! Could you PLEASE find some other web site, where readers enjoy reading utterly brainless, evil, and stupidly malicious insults?

    You are a brainless moron and I have no more time to waste on you tonight! Please get a life, for your own good!

  • Tu­lpa||

    Who are you again? You sound like some Nobody antivaxxer I just made a fool of.

  • SQRLSY One||

    So you won the argument by spouting mindless insults?

    Tulpoopy is an asshole-asshat, asshole, asshole, asshole-asshole-asshole, asshole-asshat, asshole, asshole, asshole-asshole-asshole, asshole-asshat, asshole, asshole, asshole-asshole-asshole, asshole-asshat, asshole, asshole, asshole-asshole-asshole, asshole-asshat, asshole, asshole, asshole-asshole-asshole!!!!

    There, I won the argument now, Tulpoopy-style!

  • Ann in L.A.||

    We notice from the kid's school today that someone on campus has whopping cough.

  • DrZ||

    I wonder if the Anti-Vaxers are the ones who call me a climate denier?

  • emmanuel||

    Why don't we wait and see how these measles cases turn out.

    My 35 year old son has received ZERO vaccinations. He has never been sick a day in his life. He never missed a day of school from kindergarten through 12th grade.

    How many of those who contracted measles at Disneyland last year died, went deaf, or became handicapped, etc? The answer is ZERO.

    Measles, mumps, rubella are NOT life threatening diseases. Whooping cough is NOT life threatening. Chicken pox is NOT life threatening. My three brothers got the mumps (I didn't) way back in 1960. OMG they are still alive.

    The mumps outbreak in Iowa a few years ago... how many died, etc? ZERO. How many that got the mumps were fully vaccinated? 97%, and they still got mumps.

    Do some research on your own, and you will find that vaccinations actually spread disease.

    How about that flu vaccine, huh? The VAERS court awarded a QUARTER of a BILLION dollars for damages caused by just the flu vaccine. The CDC claims that last year 80,000 died of the flu (and flu related diseases, never mind that flu related diseases cannot be prevented by the flu vaccine). Let's for a moment agree that that number is true (the government and its minions have been lying to me for over 60 years).

    What percentage of the U.S. population is 80,000? Two and a half ONE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT, so you'd better get your flu shot, or you might DIE.

  • Tu­lpa||

    Oh great you're an antivax tard AND a holocaust denier.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "My 35 year old son has received ZERO vaccinations. He has never been sick a day in his life. He never missed a day of school from kindergarten through 12th grade."

    Your 35 year old son benefited enormously from the fact that all the kids around him were vaccinated.

    Furthermore, I don't believe that your son never caught a cold or the flu for 35 years.

    "Measles, mumps, rubella are NOT life threatening diseases. Whooping cough is NOT life threatening."

    About 1.2 million people died of measles in 1985.
    In 2016, that number was about 100,000.

    http://www.cdc.gov/measles/dow.....ideset.pdf

    The difference was vaccination against measles.

    What else are you wrong about?

    P.S. Putting other people's children in danger with the justification that the danger you're putting them in isn't deadly is some seriously weird thinking. Do you imagine it would be morally acceptable to put other people's children of an increased risk of permanent brain damage just so long as the child doesn't die? You may have a moral right to foolishly not vaccinate your own children. You don't have a right to put other people's children in danger--certainly not because what you're doing won't necessarily end in death. Do you imagine you have a moral right to steal from people, too--so long as stealing from them won't necessarily kill them?

  • Vaccine-choice||

    Quote from your source: " The last measles death in the United States occurred in 2015."

    Second fact FROM YOUR SOURCE: Measels is brought to the United States from foreigners.

    Build the wall and start testing everyone coming into the airports from abroad, and then we can have a chat about you vaccinating my kid.

  • Vaccine-choice||

    You failed to read your own sourced data; if 100,000 people died from measles, they were NOT in the United States. You are spreading fake news / misinformation.

  • ||

    if 100,000 people died from measles, they were NOT in the United States

    I understood this to be the case. "Do vaccines work?" is without question and the only people asking it are helping to solidify the label of 'idiotic anti-vaxxers' to whatever cause they're advocating.

    83,000 cases of measles in Poland is probably costing them a lot of money in healthcare, vaccination could almost certainly help them in that regard. As a libertarian, I'm loathe to make policy recommendations as to how much vaccination to achieve what savings and at what cost to individual liberty or other opportunity.

  • NolanLibertarian||

    Why are the parents not liable for the damage they cause?
    Especially the phony libertarian ones.

  • CE||

    Sounds like a collectivist argument.

    If you don't want to catch measles, get the vaccination.
    If other people want to take their chances, let them.
    If the vaccine isn't 100% effective, you can't blame "the herd".

  • ||

    If the vaccine isn't 100% effective, you can't blame "the herd".

    Or you can, quietly from the corner... or if you blame the herd for not hunting down every last anti-vaxxer and sticking a needle in their arm (or forcing them to drink the Kool-ai... vaccine) you don't get to call yourself a libertarian.

  • Thomas L. Knapp||

    "Measles cases caused by the highly contagious virus have been identified in 10 states so far this winter, but the biggest outbreak is in Washington State's Clark County, located just north of Portland, Oregon."

    Not even close. Try 200 cases is New York, concentrated in Brooklyn's Orthodox Jewish community.

  • Azathoth!!||

    Why is this even a conversation?

    Not 20 years ago we were talking about diseases that we'd eradicated. Now, the luddite morons are demanding diseases as 'rite-of-passage'.

    This is why that MAGA slogan went over so well--with so many desiring a return to stone age shitholedom.

    Please, fuck off and die in a fire.

  • ||

    Not 20 years ago we were talking about diseases that we'd eradicated. Now, the luddite morons are demanding diseases as 'rite-of-passage'.

    You do know that those diseases aren't and weren't truly 100% eradicated, right? That, even if they were eradicated 20 yrs. ago the technology to resurrect them has since been developed and that the overwhelming majority of people aren't vaccinated now, right?

    Casting the net wider, you know 20 yrs. ago we had playground equipment that is, in lots of circles, considered unfit for children to play on, right? That, in some circles, denying your children their ADHD medication would be seen as criminal as if you dosed them with measles yourself? You and I might be able to draw a line between kids choosing to play on playground equipment, not being able to choose to get vaccinated, and having no choice with regard to their ADHD meds, but that doesn't mean the line is always so clear and one dimensional. The same reasoning and policy that grants the school the right to deny kids because of vaccine works pretty well at getting them to take their ADHD meds. There's nothing that indicates that exactly half these parents aren't pro-vaccine, anti-ADHD, and pro-risk on the playground and that the amount of unvaccinated kids represents a compromise.

    Since when did libertarianism become about forced collectivization of physiology, ideology, and risk?

  • Azathoth!!||

    Please cite where I call for 'forced collectivization of physiology, ideology, and risk'.

    What I'm calling out is idiocy.

    The link they decry is non-existent.

    The disease they risk is not.

    Those are facts. Not opinions, not stances, not something that 'circles' believe.

    They simply are.

  • ||

    The link they decry is non-existent.

    The disease they risk is not.

    Those are facts. Not opinions, not stances, not something that 'circles' believe.

    You didn't cite idiocy as a contravening of facts, you cited idiocy as your opinion about their opinion about a right of passage.

    I'm not a fan of avoiding vaccinations, but I've certainly been through, believe in, and have been vilified as a luddite for believing and participating in rites of passage. And I don't mean explicitly religious ones. And I don't think you haven't been similarly vilified.

    Moreover, you started out questioning why we're even having a conversation. As though even if it were wholly a fact-based discussion, facts and reality, once fixed, remain so and the very notion that they could change or be reconsidered in light of new evidence shouldn't even be conceptualized or debated. Which is itself a pretty irrational and idiotic stance to take.

  • Gary in Texas||

    An interesting hypothetical: if Robert Kennedy Jr. were bitten by a bat or a skunk would he get the rabies shot or just take his chances? The worse thing about the anti-vaccine characters is that they are adults who probably are safe because their parents had them vaccinated who are now making their innocent kids unsafe. One could wish they were experimenting on themselves instead.

  • ||

    An interesting hypothetical: if Robert Kennedy Jr. were bitten by a bat or a skunk would he get the rabies shot or just take his chances? The worse thing about the anti-vaccine characters is that they are adults who probably are safe because their parents had them vaccinated who are now making their innocent kids unsafe.

    You do know that most parents, pro- *and* anti-vaccination don't get their kids vaccinated for rabies, right? That if you suddenly required the rabies vaccine as mandatory for attending public schools tomorrow even a lot of libertarians would tell you to fuck off with your vaccines and to get the rabid animals out of a public school, right? You also know that, unlike MMR, the rabies vaccine only confers immunity relatively transiently right? That, if you did require it for attendance at public schools, you'd have to require it every ~2 yrs. rather than just the once?

    Anti-vaxxers are idiots, but there are plenty of idiots who stand across from them and conflate rabies, polio, hepatitis, influenza, measles, etc. and I say this as someone who worked in a BSL-3 lab and has had vaccinations that most people don't normally get.

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