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Why Authorities Are Still Careful About the Motives for the San Bernardino Shootings (UPDATED: With Latest Info)

Farook may be Muslim, but he doesn’t seem to match the ISIS profile.

Syed FarookSource: FamilyOfficials are still sorting out the motives as to why Syed Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27, decided to plan and carry out the mass murder of Farook's co-workers from San Bernardino County's health department at a holiday party.

For anybody either confused that authorities are still not immediately jumping to Islamist terrorism, understand that Southern California is host to a significant population of Muslims who began immigrating out here generations ago, and many are as assimilated as anybody else, even while continuing to practice their faith. They're not just in the urban centers, but in outlying suburban enclaves like Redlands, the community where Farook lived, right next door to San Bernardino. Farook may have become radicalized more recently; his new wife, from Saudi Arabia (Per the update below, she's actually a citizen of Pakistan), whom he met online, might have played a role. Fox News is heavily pushing the radicalization theory based on sources.

But there's little understanding at this point how or why Farook became radicalized with what little information we have about him. He was not some disaffected youth with no future ready to embrace the nihilistic attitudes of the Islamic State. Having a job with government in remarkably poor San Bernardino County probably put him in the top five percent of household income in the area. In a dating site profile, he mentioned that he enjoyed reading religious books, but described himself as both "religious" and "modern." Modernity is not exactly what the Islamic State is looking for. He enjoyed working on cars, both vintage and modern (a popular hobby in this Route 66-idolizing area), and also "target practice" with family and friends. The target practice has also been flagged by some as suspicious, but San Bernardino County is a huge, actually very rural place once you get out of the cities. It's a massive desert. There is a big recreational gun culture in San Bernardino County, and his ownership of weapons probably would not have come as a surprise if Farook were white or Christian.

Farook, to anybody who lives in Southern California, appears, based on what we know so far, to have been a perfectly assimilated Muslim American. That helps explain the reluctance to fully publicly embrace the radicalization possibility, though it could yet still prove to be true. It's also possible that Farook, like several other mass shooters in the United States, developed some sort of serious mental illness that he managed to keep hidden from co-workers and friends, and this violence is the ultimate manifestation. It would seem strange that his wife would also be involved, but then keep in mind that the value of the Internet allows people to connect with other like-minded people on the basis of hobbies, politics, and other interests. It also, therefore, creates the possibility that Farook and Malik shared a similar fractured outlook, without either of them having any formal connections to terrorist groups. The radicalization could be a symptom, not a cause.

Even conservative politicians like Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), while saying it could be terrorism, are carefully hedging that we don't have enough information yet. The FBI has said Farook was not on their radar screens as a potential terrorist, though according to the New York Times, they're looking into a connection between Farook and somebody else they investigated "a few years ago."

The Twittersphere and some media outlets may rush to judgment, but there's very good reason to be cautious about guessing at Farook's motives here. 

UPDATE: At a morning press conference, San Bernardino Police and FBI provided the latest information on the investigation. Though they are still not willing to discuss a motive, there is additional evidence that the violence was planned in advance:

  • At the Redlands home that Farook and Malike were renting, police found about 12 pipe bombs. The explosive device found at the scene of the shooting conisted of three pipe bombs attached to a remote control vehicle. It apparently did not detonate during the shooting.
  • After the shootout between the suspects and police, they found more than 1,500 rounds of ammunition on the couple or in their vehicle for the four guns they owned.
  • The SUV they were driving had been rented locally several days before the shooting. 
  • The third person they detained turned out to be unconnected to the shootings. There are no other suspects they believe were directly involved with the shooting itself. 
  • The guns involved were all purchased legally. The handguns were purchased directly by Farook. The rifles were not, and the origins of the rifles are still being researched.
  • Farook had no criminal record to the police's knowledge and was not subject to any current investigations.
  • Farook did travel overseas in July 2014 and returned with Malik. Malik is from Pakistan, in the U.S. on a Visa. 
  • Officials plan to start releasing the names of those killed today.
  • Police say the couple was wearing tactical clothing, but not body armor. And despite some media reports, they found no evidence they were wearing video cameras.

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  • R C Dean||

    Shorter Shackford:

    Too early to say exactly what the killers' motives were.

  • Mr. Flanders||

    Stick to twitter if all you want is short statements without any explanation or evidence.

  • Barnstormer||

    I'm not carrying water for the twittersphere, but there's never a reason to use 200 words if ten will do.

  • Mr. Flanders||

    But the article said more than that, including what Fox News' narrative is, that the male shooter had a high-paying job in a poor city, a description of his dating profile, what conclusions people are jumping to based on his dating profile a short paragraph speculating on possible motives and why people are jumping to conclusion and what Ted Cruz's response has been.

    My guess is that y'all are just lazy as hell.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    My guess is that y'all are just lazy as hell.

    And?

  • MSimon||

    Flanders,

    He and his wife went on a killing spree because the dating site didn't produce another wife/sex slave?

  • Mr. Flanders||

    Hmm... another valid hypothesis...

  • Chip Chipperson||

    The simple reality of Islamist terrorism is that it's definitely NOT limited to poor disaffected Muslim youth with no other options in life.

    There have been way too many cases of middle class, educated, and comfortable Muslims choosing radicalization and jihad to read any significance into the fact that this guy had a job and seemed well-adjusted.

    And that's the really difficult thing about dealing with Muslims in the west; there's no real profile to help determine which ones are going to go wrong. If it were simply poverty and lack of education, the problem would be easier to deal with. But plenty of terrorists seemed to have enough going for them that you'd think they wouldn't be susceptible to radicalization.

  • Vitae Drinker||

    Charles Dickens disagrees. When you're being payed by the word, you definitely have a reason to be verbose.

  • Citizen X||

    Something something Mark Twain's review of Last of the Mohicans

  • JW||

    Isn't that pretty much Shorter Everyone right now?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    No.

    Shorter liberal mags:

    If they didn't have guns, it wouldn't have happened. Ban guns.

  • blcartwright||

    ignore the pipe bombs

  • EndTheGOP||

    The best thing for our country would be if our comander-in-chief keeled over from a massive heart attack. They say prayer works.

  • Suicidy||

    I would prefer to see his entire administration convicted of treason, and executed.

  • Gene Poole||

    ...and now we know what sort of country you'd like to live in.

  • Hugh Akston||

    I think the office holiday party is sufficient to explain his motives.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I thought you were supposed to get drunk, photocopy your arse, hit on co-workers and make regretable remarks - not go all murdery.

  • Hugh Akston||

    People react differently to mandatory fun. I usually just fake an illness or hide at my desk.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I would hide under my desk while faking an illness if I had mandatory fun with my current co-workers. Two of them are fun, and I have actually been drinking with them before - the rest... *shivers*

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    There's always the option of ruining it for everyone. I've been known to do that before.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Not like this guy, though. Sheesh

  • soflarider||

    A little LSD in the punchbowl might liven things up a bit.

  • dantheserene||

    I am ducking an office holiday party as I read this.

  • Citizen X||

    I just sent my regrets for one via email.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    But a holiday party at 11 am? The fuck?

  • Gray Ghost||

    Combination lunch / Holiday Party for the terminally cheap. At least it wasn't potluck (shudder).

  • Zeb||

    Who eats lunch at 11 AM?

  • Vitae Drinker||

    Old people and government employees.

  • Ted S.||

    My lunch is at 11:15, but then I work from 6 to 2:30.

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    My lunch is at 11:30 AM just to avoid the lunch rush.

  • Suicidy||

    If they start early enough, then the whole day is spent setting up the party, and on the party. No work gets done. Which equals success for government workers.

  • JDKolassa||

    I do, but that's because my junior high made us eat lunch at 9:45, and then the high school always gave me lunch around 11-11:30AM.

  • Ron||

    maybe that was the only time they could reserve the room

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    "At least it wasn't potluck (shudder)."

    It was.
    And somebody brought BACON.

    Natural response Murder Spree!

  • ||

    Spam hotdish? Or multiple spam hotdishes?

    I can see murdering people if that happened. Or if someone used CoolWhip on their jello salad instead of real whipped cream.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    It's what government employees do; having a party while getting paid.
    You think any of them are gonna show up after 5?

    Well, maybe if the party was at Peter Luger...

  • MSimon||

    Suppose the party was at Smith & Wesson?

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Do you live in New York and not know what Peter Luger is?

    Are you a fucking vegetarian or something?

  • Gray Ghost||

    I had thought it was a riff on Smith & Wollensky, but what do I know?

    Is Peter Lugar worth the effort and the vast wallet of cash to pay for the meal, since they don't take credit cards?

  • Restoras||

    No. Keen's is the best in NYC.

  • Suicidy||

    I'll try to remember that when we wall off NYC and trap all the progs there

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Only if you get the porterhouse for 2.

  • Chip Woodier||

    I'll be having the porterhouse for 2...for 1.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Good point. I keep forgetting that it was a govt office.

  • blcartwright||

    maybe they had a nativity and served pork, which could have triggered him

  • Nick H||

    most likely someone wished him a Merry Christmas and he took it as a microaggression

  • nova3930||

    Dude may have snapped and moved early but he was planning something prior to that. The bag of pipe bombs wasn't magiced up in between when he left and when he started wasting people....

  • toadboy65||

    There are people earnestly making that argument. The information I heard was that he was gone about 10 to 15 minutes. I don't know if that is correct, but if so, Mrs. Terrorist would have had to be waiting in the parking lot.

  • junyo||

    We can't continue to allow the unregulated sale of black iron pipe! Close the Home Depot loophole!

  • Hank Ferrous||

    +1 Common Sense Plumbing Supplies control lwas

  • ||

    Nobody needs a pipe longer than 6 inches!

  • CE||

    Why can't we ban work?

  • Pathogen||

    The $15 minimum wage crew is working on it..

  • Certified Public Asshat||

    Let's put Christmas back in the "holiday" party.

    #thoughtsandprayers

  • Suicidy||

    Exactly. Just say "Christmas party". It sounds like a lot more fun, and without the douchebaggy sound.

  • ||

    Let's not be dense, The Religion of Peace™ just acquired 14 new victims

  • R C Dean||

    Would it kill you to wait a day for some actual, you know, information to surface?

  • tarran||

    It's poor impulse control - probably the product of his sublimated rage at the humiliation of not being able to tell Daphne how he feels about her.

  • SimonJester||

    Man, you can say that again.

  • ||

    That's a hell of a sculpture by Bernini

  • tarran||

    It's poor impulse control - probably the product of his sublimated rage at the humiliation of not being able to tell Daphne how he feels about her.

  • Swiss Servator||

    The Squirrelz agree.

  • ||

    It must get heavy carrying water for CAIR, no?

  • ||

    Yo, n00b. RC, tarran and Swiss are all long-time commenters with a lot of stature here. You, well, not so much.

  • Charles Easterly||

    I found his conflation quite telling, Tonio, and will try remain cognizant of it when considering future comments.

  • ||

    I don't care how long they have been here, I care that people are so scared to appear "intolerant" or "Islamophobic" that they are unwilling to either criticize Islam or recognize that it is likely that a devout Muslim who committed a massacre most likely did so in the name of Islam. No, we don't know the whole story yet, but based on the facts that have been presented, it is entirely rational to claim this attack was religiously motivated.

  • ||

    In other words, you're calling them cowardly for refusing to jump on your "blame the Muslims" train before the facts are in. Got it.

  • kbolino||

    MEMRI, CAIR, they're all the same thing, right?

  • Charles Easterly||

    Nice (I was typing to Tonio while you posted).

  • R C Dean||

    Crane, if you had a longer history here, you would know that my loathing for CAIR, identity politics privilege, multi-culti PC crap, etc. knows no bounds.

    I'm one of the ones saying we should take no "refugees" from "Syria", and indeed I could support severe restrictions on all immigration from MENA until this regional insanity burns out.

  • ||

    Well I don't so I can only judge you based on what you have said. I was being slightly sarcastic with my CAIR comment, but I still find the whole "we can't make any assumptions at all" line a load of bullshit.

  • Timon 19||

    You can make all the assumptions you like. If they turn out to be wrong (like has happened in countless mass shootings so far), you're going to look like an ass.

    Then it will be fun to mock you.

    R C Dean apparently doesn't like risking looking like an ass. I find that to be a perfectly cromulent concern.

  • Citizen X||

    When you make assumptions, it makes an "ass" out of "u" and "mptions."

  • ||

    +1 Cathead

  • ||

    The man was a devout Muslim allegedly in contact with an "international terrorism subject." It's not unreasonable to believe this was an act of Islamic terrorism. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I guess I will look like an ass too!

  • ||

    What fucking data do you have that he was 'a devout Muslim allegedly in contact with an "international terrorism subject." '

    I've seen exactly zero evidence of those "facts" you touted.

    The article above does say somebody else they investigated "a few years ago.", which is not the same as "international terrorism subject."

    Chill out and take a deep breath.

  • ||

    To be fair, I read it in a Daily Mail article citing CNN so I should take it with a grain of salt.

  • ||

    And he was a "devout Muslim" according to his colleagues at work.

  • Some Engineer||

    Dammit, can I get through just one day where I don't read the word "cromulent" in a comments section?

  • ||

    Speaking of which, haven't seen Kromulent Kristen in here in a while.

  • Suicidy||

    Fellas, fellas, can't we all just come together and agree that we should euthanize all the progressives? Let's find some solidarity in that.

  • MissMalevolent||

    LOL

  • soflarider||

    To euthanize all progressives you'd need a big government program and disregard for the NAP. Now if we could get them to euthanize themselves.......

  • ||

    They'll get around to it. They always do.

  • Suicidy||

    facts are in. Admiral Ackbar baby!

  • commodious spittoon||

    He enjoyed working on cars, both vintage and modern (a popular hobby in this Route 66-idolizing area), and also "target practice" with family and friends

    He must have missed them.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *narrows gaze*

  • commodious spittoon||

    I just can't bear to tell you some lies
    And narrow your eyes
    Narrow your eyes

  • Some Engineer||

    I too like TMBG.

  • ||

    The Twittersphere and some media outlets may rush to judgment, but there's very good reason to be cautious about guessing at Farook's motives here.

    But Scott, how can you reinforce your preconceptions and biases if you don't rush to judgement with the "reason" that works best for your obsessions and fears? Coldly and logically waiting for information doesn't do that! It's no good!

  • Crusty Juggler||

    My thoughts and prayers are with you.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Oh Gawd, did I just laugh! Thanks for that, Crusty!

  • Idle Hands||

    But Scott, how can you reinforce your preconceptions and biases if you don't rush to judgement with the "reason" that works best for your obsessions and fears?

    I think it's pretty clear that the terrorists were hot chicks in a social setting.

  • JW||

    Look, pal, we are a proud pants-wearing people who come from a long line of shitting in them at the slightest suggestion of unfocused danger. This is our heritage you're talking about!

    Don't you tell us when we can't shit our pants! Them is even more pants-shitting words!

  • John||

    So admitting the obvious is now "pants shitting"? Really?

  • JW||

    What's the obvious, John? That 99.9% of people, including mooslims, aren't psychotic killers? But, nevermind that, we have very nice camps for people who look like them to live in.

    I'll let you get back to your pants.

  • ||

    If we're not free to shit our pants at the slightest opportunity, are we really free?

  • JW||

    Freedom isn't free! U$$A!!!

  • Swiss Servator||

    Am I not free to gambol (in shitted drawers)?

  • Citizen X||

    Sure, but stay away from my furniture.

  • ||

  • Charles Easterly||

    Why certainly, Swiss, especially in the Wabe.

  • SugarFree||

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    *generous applause*

  • Charles Easterly||

    "America must not value the liberty to own a gun over the liberty to live free from violence."
    - Mark Joseph Stern

    "... liberty to live free from violence." Even a Catatonic State cannot save one from violence, although the resultant mental condition might be a solution for countrypersons like Mr. Stern, since they will be free from their fears.

    I was gong to make a Stern/Heavy Metal reference yet somehow I imagine Mr. Stern would be inclined to interpret the obvious jest as a threat, despite that fact that one cannot possibly be wood chipped and subsequently buried alive.

  • kbolino||

    liberty to live free from violence

    Ooh! Ooh! I want unicorns too!

  • R C Dean||

    But what if its my guns that allow me the liberty to live free from (being on the receiving end of) violence?

  • Zunalter||

    Awww, isn't that cute, trying to use your logic like it matters in these conversations.

  • Charles Easterly||

    If I am understanding Mr. Stern correctly, Dean, it is not about your individual liberties (or anyone else's individual liberties), but rather it is about his and everyone else's collective "... liberty to live free from violence."

    To put this another way: How can you, trying to protect yourself/your family/others who happen to be in your physical proximity (by use of a firearm) protect Mr. Stern and other unarmed citizens from the threat of violence everywhere else in the United States? You and your firearm(s) didn't save any lives at San Bernardino.

    In short, Dean, it seems to me that Mr. Stern, along with many of our fellow citizens, would incorrectly consider you a threat to their liberty if they observed you with a holstered firearm, rather than a guarantor of their inalienable rights.

  • LarryA||

    How can you, trying to protect yourself/your family/others who happen to be in your physical proximity (by use of a firearm) protect Mr. Stern and other unarmed citizens from the threat of violence everywhere else in the United States?
    I teach beginning shooting, hunter education, and Texas license to carry classes, so Mr. Stern, when he's ready, can arm himself.
    It's the "Protect Mr. Stern and you keep him safe for a day, teach him to shoot and he's protected for a lifetime" method.

    You and your firearm(s) didn't save any lives at San Bernardino.
    California law effectively prohibits armed self-defense. The whole state is a "gun-free zone." That's one reason I, and most others like me, don't live there.

  • Brian||

    I may not agree with your pants, by I will defend to the death your right to shit in them.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    I want to get my hate on NOW! Not this afternoon or tonight! Goddamnit, my pants shouldn't stay unsoiled that long.

  • ||

    There's no time to wait! In fact, if we wait, it might not turn out to be what we want it to be, and then our pants-shitting is for naught! PANTS-SHIT NOW!

  • SugarFree||

    Post under your regular handle, pussy.

  • JW||

    Have you ever tried using a hose to get the sand out of your vagina?

  • ||

    You must get tired passive aggressively switching handles so you can snivel and whine in the most cowardly fashion imaginable.

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    "There's no time to wait! In fact, if we wait, it might not turn out to be what we want it to be, and then our pants-shitting is for naught! PANTS-SHIT NOW!"

    This message brought to you by your local Dry Cleaners Association.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "Augh! That cost you extra, mister!"

  • DenverJ||

    Lacist

  • MSimon||

    It is just another case of workplace violence. If you can't accept that move along. If you can't do that move a short.

  • Yusef Adama||

    Or a movement in your shorts

  • Zunalter||

    Coldly and logically waiting for information doesn't do that! It's no good!

    I know, I am practically bursting at the seams to start screaming "Radical Islam!!!" at all my co-workers.

  • Drake||

    If the stories about the Saudi pilgrimage and wife are true, seems he went the al-Qeada style crazy instead of ISIS style crazy.

    Please define "perfectly assimilated Muslim American". Do they believe in Sharia Law? Spreading the Faith with violence? Just some of the Koran and none of the Hadith?

  • commodious spittoon||

    How much more assimilated can you get than spree shooting? --HuffPo in two hours, probably

  • Swiss Servator||

    Nicely done.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Well, he said he was "modern", unfortunately, a single word in an online dating profile can mean a lot, and nothing, all at the same time.

  • Mickey Rat||

    People are always perfectly truthful on dating profiles!

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Biggest strength: I care too much

    Biggest weakness: I care too much.

    Turn-ons: hugs, hand-holding

    Turn-offs: Mean people, freedom.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    More than once I've heard executive managers claim that their biggest weakness is they worked too damned hard.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    I just care too damned much.

  • MSimon||

    A few minutes in the bathroom will solve that.

  • Mock-star||

    My biggest weakness is that I have no strengths.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I had a friend who recently tried online dating. He discovered very quickly that 100% of the profile pictures were old. 100%

  • Anonymoose||

    Well it is difficult to take a picture of yourself from the future.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    But it's easy to utilize a picture from the current decade.

  • ||

    How long does it take to put on 75 lbs and go bald?

  • Mr Lizard||

    *pinch hitting for Swiss Servitor*

    *narrows reptilian gaze*

  • Swiss Servator||

    Danke, Herr Lizard

  • steedamike||

    "One time, this guy handed me a picture of him, he said "Here's a picture of me when I was younger." Every picture is of you when you were younger. "Here's a picture of me when I'm older." "You son-of-a-bitch! How'd you pull that off? Lemme see that camera... What's it look like? "

    -Mitch Hedberg

  • Drake||

    Damn - my sarcasm was correct - AQ

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.co.....mbs-video/

  • Gray Ghost||

    Don't AQ's bombs usually work though? And seemingly none of theirs did?

    I realize Jerryskids was having some fun with us in another thread about the "third shooter" being an FBI plant, but it would be really funny if this was another bomb sting gone horribly wrong.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    A perfectly assimilated Muslim American is one who believes Al-Baqara 256 stands true and has not been abrogated: "there is no compulsion in religion".

    A real Muslim understands that proper naskh (نسخ) exegesis of that verse demonstrates conclusively that is has been abrogated by subsequent scripture.

    In other words, a perfectly assimilated Muslim American is a cafeteria Muslim, an ignorant Muslim, or non-practicing. Or maybe a Sufi.

  • DenverJ||

    You know, like that gay Persian guy on the telly that my wife used to watch.

  • SugarFree||

    I think Scott is having some fun with the yokels after the Colorado Planned Parenthood nonsense.

  • Old.Mexican||

    Farook may be Muslim, but he doesn’t seem to match the ISIS profile.


    You mean there's one???? :-o

  • SugarFree||

    I think Scott is referring to the ISIS dating profile.

    Turn Ons: Backwards theology, burning people alive, sex with severed heads

    Turns Off: Your Freedoms, Bitches

  • Crusty Juggler||

    I rolled out my jump to conclusions mat and landed on "freedom" yesterday, so you are on to something.

  • JW||

    ::applause::

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Turns Off: Your Freedoms, Bitches

    What you did there, I seen it.

  • commodious spittoon||

    If they're recruiting young men on dating websites, my odds of finding a match must be getting better.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Sorry, there are no libertarian women.

  • commodious spittoon||

    That's why I nod enthusiastically at everything she says until the pants come off.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Ah, clever man.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    What about her pants?

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    Most government employees main purpose is to shakedown citizens. That makes them terrorists by definition.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    You mean shake down taxpayers - which these days is not entirely the same group as citizens.

  • BearOdinson||

    So I get why the "authorities" may reserve their judgement for motive. It appears that all those directly involved here are dead so there is no good reason to rush the investigation. Fine.

    But for FFS! Did he have a toothache ala Geraldo referring to Nidal Hassan? Whatever was the cause that led him to Islamic extremism, that was obviously a big part.

    And no all Muslims aren't terrorists. Most obviously aren't. But the vast majority of these types of attacks are either committed by nutbags with no discernably consistent ideology, or they are doing it in the name of Islam. There is not a single other ideology in the world that contributes anywhere near to the amount of terrorism (state sponsored or otherwise) as Islam.

  • commodious spittoon||

    "Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ." So, you know, really we're just as bad.

  • HolgerDanske||

    So, you know, really we're our ancestors were just as bad.

    FIFY

    You don't really believe in guilt by association, do you?

  • Swiss Servator||

    You realize he is quoting Teh Lightworker, ne?

  • HolgerDanske||

    Obviously not *unshits pants*

  • MSimon||

    Worse. We bought slaves from African Muslims.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    And no all Muslims aren't terrorists. Most obviously aren't.

    I put it to you that those committing the acts aren't Muslims either. But if they wrap it in religion they get support for their particular cause that they wouldn't get otherwise. It's politics, not religion.

  • MSimon||

    It's politics, not religion.

    And in Islam the difference is...?

  • HolgerDanske||

    It's politics, not religion.

    Some ideologies transcend both.

  • ant1sthenes||

    I'm pretty sure they identify as Muslims, so maybe you should stop microaggressing against them.

  • toadboy65||

    Their Caliph has an advanced degree in Islamic Studies. Many of their supporters are Imams or religious scholars. The first I in ISIS stands for "Islamic". They have released lots of documents and videos explaining exactly what their motivations and theology are. Why not, at least for now, take their word for it?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Whatever was the cause that led him to Islamic extremism, that was obviously a big part.

    What's obvious about it? So far it seems to be based on his name and his professed faith.

  • MSimon||

    He became more religious in the last two years?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    I don't recall seeing anything like that in the FOX report, which I'm assuming is the most alarmist take on the known facts so far.

  • MSimon||

    I think I saw that in USA Today. You might want to read sites less biased than Fox.

  • ant1sthenes||

    And his tactics. Meaning, had the guy just taken a handgun to work and shot a bunch of people, he could easily just be the Muslim version of typical crazypants white guy, but

    1) this was planned out,
    2) it involved explosives, apparently
    3) he had at least one accomplice
    4) no one has pointed to a work dispute or other reason for disgruntlement.

    All of that points against random work rampage. It could be that the truth was in between, terrorists online found a guy who was clearly going to snap eventually and helped equip him to do more damage when he did. But I'm willing to bet islamism played at least some role here.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    That describes Columbine as well.

    I wouldn't bet against Islamism being involved in some way, of course. But so far I wouldn't declare it obvious.

  • Suicidy||

    Had to listen to Conspiracy Guy at the gym say it was probably a false flag operation. He also says Newtown was a hoax.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Does he use Reynold No-Stick foil too?!

    *tightens foil pakol*

  • Old.Mexican||

    ─ Mass shootings in San Bernardino - 14 dead! ─
    "Why, those gun crazies are at it again!"
    ─ Two suspects are dead - both were Muslim! ─
    "Let's not jump to conclusions lest we paint too many with a wide brush!"

    Proggie-logic 101. Gives you 3 credits.

  • Zunalter||

    This.

  • Fredrick Douglas||

  • Sevo||

    Have to admit some surprise and pleasure that the conclusion-jumping event has so few entrants so far.

  • Sevo||

    Well, I see the field is filling up.

  • RBS||

    You should check the giant thread from yesterday.

  • Swiss Servator||

    No, its a trap!

  • Charles Easterly||

    "You should check the giant thread from yesterday."

    Indeed... that was quite the woolly mammoth.

  • tarran||

    That's because the evidence so far points to unpleasant conclusions.

    By the way there was a school shooting in Boston only three miles from a Planned Parenthood Clinic.

  • ant1sthenes||

    I wish Reason were big enough assholes to rub other journos nose in that bullshit for a while by pointing out, with all stories, how far away they occurred from the nearest Planned Parenthood. Like the running gag in Team America where each location was identified by how far away it was from America.

  • Marshall Gill||

    This is going to be the new "-gate." (Adding the suffix "gate" to every scandal)

    Car crash occurred 7.5 miles from a PP office. Mugging only .9 miles from PP office. Shoplifting 3 miles from PP office.

  • ||

    I had a peak at the post that was up here last night. There was a lot of conclusion jumping going on before anybody even knew who the suspects were while at the same time people were decrying progressives who were jumping to gun-control (sometimes the very same commenters).

  • ||

    Don't bother pointing out their hypocrisy, they're impervious to intellectual integrity. Just like the progs they hate for the exact same reason.

  • MSimon||

    I hate for a different reason. And mine is better.

  • ||

    Not as good as mine.

  • ||

    John|12.2.15 @ 5:15PM|#|–|filternamelinkcustom

    I am with you. I fucking had it with this bullshit. Nothing personal but if having Muslims in your society means putting up with this shit, every Muslim in America can pack their shit and head back to Bumfuckistan.
  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Nothing personal.

  • commodious spittoon||

    John doesn't count, he's a performance art project by some poli sci student.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *ponders this*

    Hmmm...

  • ||

    He's been here too long for that.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    12 year plan?

  • NealAppeal||

    poli sci student

    Naw, that's plenty long.

  • Zeb||

    Yeah, fuck the first amendment!

    That seems remarkably parallel to the gun grabbers. "If having guns in your society means putting up with this bullshit, every gun should be confiscated and private ownership banned".

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Unfortunately, your logic would be completely lost on him.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    The first amendment doesn't enjoy the wide popularity it once did either.

  • Not okay||

    Guns are inanimate objects, Islam is an ideology. I don't understand why people here can't grasp the difference, especially when articulating it is so fucking critical to the gun control debate.

  • ||

    "Islam" is not a single, unitary ideology, as you might know if you did even thirty seconds of research on it.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Oh, I'm saving that!

  • John||

    Please do Frank. I am just happy you can at least understand it. Reading comprehension is not generally one of your strong suits.

    Meanwhile, if it is the case that these sorts of things become common, what is your solution? Arm everyone? Great plan but being armed won't help when the other guy fires first. Tell the country that risking your life every time you go to a public event or work is just the way it goes?

    You don't have a plan because you are a fucking moron who can't comprehend the problem much less consider a solution. You live in a fantasy world where reality always owes you a nice easy solution. Honestly, you are probably happier being a moron. Sadly, some of the rest of us are not.

  • SugarFree||

    Kicking all Muslims out of the country is a solution?

  • John||

    Yeah. It is a hard one. But what else you got? I get do nothing. But what then?

  • SugarFree||

    I don't know. I'll go with not being a facist shitbag, I guess.

  • Restoras||

    SugarFree|12.3.15 @ 12:22PM|#

    Kicking all Muslims out of the country is a solution?

    John|12.3.15 @ 12:37PM|#

    Yeah. It is a hard one. But what else you got? I get do nothing. But what then?

    Well, you could do that, but since the vast majority of mass shootings have been committed by mentally ill people, wouldn't it make more sense to kick all them out first?

  • CatoTheChipper||

    Dude: only a tiny minority of American Muslims are batshit crazy Wahhabis. Most are chill "no compulsion in religion" or non-practicing types. I have Muslim neighbors and in-laws, and they're perfectly good Americans.

    Still, I'd have no problem with a no new green cards policy for Muslims until this insanity ceases. Even that's too harsh for my sentiments, but I sure don't see any moral obligation to accept new immigrants and could live with it. Ain't gonna happen, anyway.

  • ||

    We should start off by making them wear an emblem on their clothes or something.

    Maybe a golden crescent arm band?

  • DenverJ||

    Fun fact: The star and crescent is not an Islamic symbol, or even Arabic. It was the symbol of Byzantium, and is still widely used in countries that were once part of the eastern Roman Empire!
    Also, isn't there a state in the south east US that has it in the state flag?

  • amelia||

    The SC flag features a crescent moon over the state tree, a Palmetto.

    http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/.....-l1000.jpg

  • Harun||

    We'll probably get that and a gun ban, you know, to make everyone unhappy.

  • ant1sthenes||

    Well... it would solve the problem of Muslim terrorism, assuming you actually pulled it off.

    At great cost, of course. Whether people will tolerate that cost depends on how dire the perceived threat becomes, and the harshness of the solution proposed. Restrictions on immigration will be an easier sell than expulsion, and expulsion will always be an easier sell than genocide.

    It's somewhat irrelevant, because regardless of government policy, once the threat level reaches a point where mainstream people can talk about these things openly, there is probably going to be immense non-government pressure on Muslims to leave.

  • Suicidy||

    I need to invent the demuslimifier. It emits demuslimifing Rays that change Muslims back into regular people. Then deploy on satellite platforms. World peace ensues.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Yawn.

  • MSimon||

    Yawning takes too much effort. So I'm posting this.

  • LynchPin1477||

    Tell the country that risking your life every time you go to a public event or work

    Let me know when the risk gets higher than 0.00001%

  • John||

    So what? I have had it. What do you plan to do about it? Is your solution just oh well? Hey, what is a few dozen people being murdered every week or month?

    I am sure the idea that we might have not have any choice other than this shocks you. But sometimes life sucks like that. I can't change reality for you. I can just feel sorry for you being too weak minded to face it.

  • ||

    This exact comment could be posted by someone advocating for gun control without a single word changed.

  • John||

    Except that gun control wouldn't do anything to stop this shit from happening. No longer having any Muslims in your society would. Does this kind of thing happen in places like Japan or Mongolia where there are no Muslims?

    Gun control is a stupid answer to this because there is no way to keep guns out of the hands of people who want them and a lot of other reasons. The problem is not the gun it is the person. And what is driving the person to do this is Islam.

    Scott is correct in saying this guy seems to be a unremarkable Muslim. That is the problem. Apparently, there is no way to tell which Muslims remain unremarkable and which ones will decide to die for the greater cause. How do you deal with that problem?

    I am not saying that kicking all of them out of the country is some great solution. It is not. What I am saying is that it may be the only solution short of just saying "fuck it we are just going to have to accept this shit happening". Clearly, if this kind of thing happens once a year, we just have to write it off and move on. But what if it happens once a month? At some point you can no longer have a free society if the threat of random violence gets large enough. What then?

    That is the point of my original statement. A point which went right over your head. Scream about how wonderful and tolerant you are all you like. That doesn't change the difficulty of the problem facing us.

  • JW||

    Apparently, there is no way to tell which Muslims remain unremarkable and which ones will decide to die for the greater cause. How do you deal with that problem?

    Gosh, do you mean to suggest that mooslims are just like everyone else? Next, you'll be saying that they think they're people.

    Easy solution. Everyone is now a terrorist. Report for processing.

  • John||

    No you fucking half wit. Is everyone else going on suicidal rampages with regularity?

  • JW||

    I don't know, John. Do you know? You're sounding like one of the left-fascist pants shitters over guns. "Don't bother me with facts. I KNOW!!"

    They shot everyone and fled the scene. That doesn't sound too suicidal to me.

  • Restoras||

    John, you are being completely irrational.

    Drug dealers and their minions kill more people than muslims. Mentally ill people are responsible for more mass shootings than any other group.

    Why aren't you calling for a round up and deportation of all them?

  • Not okay||

    They already do that.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    Come on, John. Muslims are not the problem. Some deranged Wahhabis are the problem. There's a huge difference.

  • Suicidy||

    it's not that simple. A frighteningly large percentage of Muslims are at least sympathetic, if not downright enablers of jihadis, sharia law, oppression of women, etc.. I wouldn't kick Muslim Maricans out of the country(it's unconstitutional), but I would not import more of them. I would also take a hard look at which Muslims we grant visas.

  • DenverJ||

    Terrorists are like guerrillas: They cannot exist if there is not a community that supports them, hides them, and let's them recruit their children.
    I also admit to being prejudiced against Muslims. I think their religion is evil, and the ones I have personally delt with seemed to have no compunction against lying to my face and trying to cheat me.
    That said, no we can't make them wear yellow stars, we cannot round them all up, we cannot deport millions of innocents, etc.
    But I understand the impulse. John seems to be too emotional to think about it. But part of his point (maybe?) was that if enough Americans start feeling the same way, it could get even worse.
    Except that, of course, it could never happen here.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    No longer having any Muslims in your society would.

    John, neither would eliminating all guns from society. The problem is the getting there, just like the "getting there" with eliminating Muslimism.

  • John||

    You can eliminate Muslims easier than you can eliminate guns.

  • JW||

    You can eliminate Muslims easier than you can eliminate guns.

    What John is trying to say is that he totally down with the face-stomping police state that we'll create to get rid of the scary-looking people.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    You can eliminate Muslims easier than you can eliminate guns.

    I disagree with that, like 100%.

    Is this a gun?

    Is this a Muslim?

  • Zunalter||

    You can eliminate Muslims easier than you can eliminate guns.

    So, should we also block all Internet sites/videos/etc. that makes reference to the Muslim faith? Perhaps burn all books describing it? Islam is not genetic, you can't deport it. Xenophobia is not the answer.

  • Some Engineer||

    Muslims are something like 25% of the world's population. How far do you want to take your solution?

  • Suicidy||

    More like 15%.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Religions in Mongolia
    (population aged 15 and above)
    Religion Population Share
    %
    Buddhism 1,009,357 53.0%
    Islam 57,702 3.0%

    United States
    Muslim 1,349,000 0.6%.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Also, China is 1—2% Muslim, meaning there are at least as many Muslims as the US, and up to twice as many.

  • Fk Censorship||

    Those damn 1 Percenters are at it again!
    I'm new to the site, am I doing this right?

  • ||

    But it's the . I worry about.

  • ||

    I would think the US numbers would be higher, just based on Hamtramck and Orland Park alone.

  • Rhywun||

    I would think the US numbers would be higher, just based on Hamtramck and Orland Park alone.

    And NYC.

  • Citizen X||

    About 3% of the population of Mongolia is Muslim, compared to about 0.9% in the U.S.

  • JW||

    Just when John was recovering from being broken over the Homocaust, those selfish mooslim fucks have to go and do this.

    Thanks a lot, Semites!

  • John||

    It is only going to get worse JW. The problem isn't going away. And you have no idea what to do about it except tell people it is their duty to die so that Muslims may live in this country., Good luck with that answer.

  • JW||

    It's comforting to know that you have all the answers, John.

  • DenverJ||

    And a solution. That's what's important is that he has the final solution.

  • Suicidy||

    And hand wringing and snark.

  • ||

    Does this kind of thing happen in places like Japan or Mongolia where there are no Muslims?

    In Japan, their terrorists used Sarin. Much more efficient, as one would expect from the Japanese.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Their Sarin actually didn't work all that well. 12 dead, fifty or so seriously hurt in five separate attacks. Compare to the death toll from the four separate 7/7 bombings: 52 dead, and a ton of maimings. Much easier to make, more effective, and would have been even more so had they used explosives as sophisticated as home-brewed Sarin.

    Most of the nerve gases aren't gases so much as aerosols. Sarin has a high enough vapor pressure that it doesn't absolutely need a bursting charge to aerosolize it, unlike say, VX, but it's not going to be distributed well without it or another similar means. Good thing for Tokyo.

  • HolgerDanske||

    You can obviously not accept this kind of thing, while at the same time not kick out people because of what they believe.

    The solution is for everyone to accept responsibility for themselves, rather than looking to others for protection, safety, and happiness.

    Committing any kind of terror (regardless of if it's random acts of crazy, or organized) against a population where the individual does not accept it, and is willing and ready to act against it when it happens, is remarkably difficult.

  • Zeb||

    Except that gun control wouldn't do anything to stop this shit from happening. No longer having any Muslims in your society would.

    John, get a grip. Neither eliminating all guns nor all Muslims is at all practical. If you could actually get rid of all guns, it would do something to stop this shit from happening, as much as getting rid of Muslims would (as there are other weapons to be used besides guns, so are there other people willing to commit acts of terrorism).

    Neither is a solution to anything because both are impossible without giving up everything that is good about our society and imposing a complete police state on everyone.

  • Free Society||

    I think simply calling Islam what it is, an insidious and despicable ideology, would go a long way. Ideas are not created equal and are not equally deserving of respect. But we're a long way off from having ideas fight ideas because we're too busy pretending that ideas are in fact equal and deserving of equal deference and respect, unless it's some sort of pro-freedom ideology in which case we're explicitly told that it must be halted if civilization is to progress.

  • Marshall Gill||

    I think simply calling Islam what it is, an insidious and despicable ideology, would go a long way. Ideas are not created equal and are not equally deserving of respect. But we're a long way off from having ideas fight ideas because we're too busy pretending that ideas are in fact equal and deserving of equal deference and respect

    You can't fight an enemy that you will not even name. You also can't fight something with nothing. You can't claim "culture doesn't exist" and then claim "you should adopt our culture because it is better". Amazing how many in the West are unwilling to say "women being treated as equals is superior".

  • Suicidy||

    I think this will be a lot easier to deal with once we overthrow all the progressive Marxists. Which will end political correctness and media propaganda. Then we can out enablers like CAIR and their allies.

  • ||

    Mongolia where there are no Muslims?

    3% of Mongolians are Muslims.

  • LynchPin1477||

    "fuck it we are just going to have to accept this shit happening

    Since this shit happens rarely and you are completely over-blowing the threat like a cowardly, hysterical child, I think I'll go right ahead with "accept this shit happening" if the only alternative you can come up with is "be completely evil".

    Anyone who wants to support me to live in a "high-risk" area is more than welcome to do so. I can live quite comfortably on $75k a year, properly adjusted for cost of living.

  • SugarFree||

    So what? I have had it. What do you plan to do about it? Is your solution just oh well? Hey, what is a few dozen people being murdered every week or month?

    I am sure the idea that we might have not have any choice other than this shocks you. But sometimes life sucks like that. I can't change reality for you. I can just feel sorry for you being too weak minded to face it.

    /President Obama on gun control

  • John||

    Yeah because guns are just like an ideology You are as dumb as the progs. You apparently can't see the difference between an object and an ideology. face it, your world view can't account for people like these. And you have no way to deal with them other than to pretend they don't exist.

  • SugarFree||

    You know jack and shit about my ideology, John. Go try your mind-reading powers on someone else, Kreskin.

  • SugarFree||

    Says the pussy not posting under his regular handle.

    Come on, Tulpa-lite... afraid no one will want to talk to you after revealing the asshole within?

  • ||

    13 year old girl. Forgot to change his handle to Bo.

  • SugarFree||

    13 year old girl. Forgot to change his handle to Bo.

    Oh, right. That was one of his canned insults, wasn't it?

  • Zeb||

    John, Muslims are people (many of the US citizens), not bits of ideology.

    Seriously, how the fuck do you figure we are going to deport a million people, including citizens, without completely destroying everything about this country that is worth defending? People don't register their religion in this country. Do you really think that all the Muslims who might commit acts of terrorism are just going to line up to be removed? They wouldn't, I don't know, pretend not to be Muslim?

    You are seriously off your rocker here.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Once you start going after people based on their ideology, where does it end? Leftists assholes love to claim "anti-government" people are all dangerous. That tag could be used against pretty much everyone here. We may know that's total and complete bullshit, but all it would take is one paranoid guy with any literature skeptical about the government to do something violent, and the type of program(s) John is advocating could be turned against all of us, no matter how peaceful they are.

  • Gray Ghost||

    It probably would be easier than deporting 11 million illegals. Not that deporting every American Muslim is a good thing to do.

    I don't think deporting people is the way to go. But I can see an environment (think Israel during their suicide bombing era) where that's going to be argued for, and libertarians need a good plausible way to lessen the problem other than shrugging their shoulders about the issue. We aren't there yet, and probably never will be, unlike possibly Europe. Just not enough Muslims here, and definitely not enough of them that go jihadi on their neighbors.

    It's similar to the problem of gun violence in this country. But there, you can advocate that people be allowed to carry the means of self-defense---no more gun-free zones; that violent felons be locked up and kept there, as opposed to the catch and release game we play now; that trade in firearms be regulated somewhat. End the War on Some Drugs. These are solutions that would lessen the amount of gun violence without trying something as Utopian as mass confiscation.

    Or without throwing up your hands and saying there's nothing we can do.

  • Rhywun||

    no more gun-free zones

    That is no more liberal than the alternative.

  • DenverJ||

    the catch and release game we play now...

    Citation needed. My understanding is that many states have draconian sentencing guidelines, especially for repeat offenders.
    And here, let me fix a sentence for you: End the War on Some All Drugs.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Citation needed.

    Sure. Try the Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Corrections Reporting Program, Time Served in State Prison section.

    There, you will find a variety of stats on typical sentence lengths for a variety of crimes. It's self-reported so, like the FBI's crime stats, annoyingly incomplete, but we do what we can. I picked 2009 out of a hat and took a look at the average sentence length for some violent crimes. It also doesn't list percentage of time served, or it does, and I can't find it. Fed time is infamous for its lack of parole; state time less so.

    Anyway, this is for first time offenders, all times are months served, so probation/parole comes after this, first number is median, second number mean: Murder: 167, 175. So your run of the mill murderer does an average of less than 15 years for 1st degree murder. It gets worse.

    Manslaughter 1, 107, 111. Neg Manslaughter, 39, 55. Not sure where vehicular goes, but that's still pretty low. Unspec homicide: 53, 72. Rape: 75, 94. Other sex assault: 38, 52. Robbery 37, 57. Kidnapping, 35, 65. Arson, 23, 36.

    Not a lot of time, is it? And this assumes you can nail shithead for something good, instead of having him plead to something with a lot less time.

    I stand by the catch and release quip. Keep violent motherfuckers locked up, and you'll have less violent crime.

  • Not okay||

    Muslim is an ideology. A Muslim is a person who professes to believe a set of ideas. Namely, Islam.

  • Suicidy||

    You can't. But if we were rid of our progressives, we could go after the subversives much harder within the limits of the constitution. And actually deal with them. Without cries of 'racism' or 'Christians are just as bad' at every turn.

  • Zeb||

    How is what you are saying not parallel to what anti-gun people say after something like this? They have had it too and are ready to start taking people's rights away for it. Just like you with Muslims.

    And before you say "gun control doesn't work" (which of course it doesn't), consider that Muslim control won't work either, even putting aside the enormous constitutional and moral problems. Do you think that terrorists can't run, hide or lie about their beliefs?

  • JW||

    Hysterical police-state collectivism is never having to say that you're sorry.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    We could just not give tourist or student visas or take immigrants from majority Muslim countries.

    I know that won't fly with the Open Border Crowd, but for the 98% of the rest of us who believe in some sort of limits on immigration, there are only so many people we can take in. So let's make some smart choices.

    More hot, young Eastern European model-types and fewer mid-east Muslims.

  • kbolino||

    I know that won't fly with the Open Border Crowd, but for the 98% of the rest of us who believe in some sort of limits on immigration, there are only so many people we can take in. So let's make some smart choices.

    Damn son, you must have some terrible ground game if you can only muster 1% turnout. Because that's about the only fucking way you can go from having 98% support to not getting what you want.

  • Gray Ghost||

    I quibble with Milo's numbers. Really it's hyperbole.

    But not with the main gist: there are a lot more people in this country that believe in some limits on immigration, than believe in the Open Borders ideology prevalent here. Or is there some other reason why Trump is beating the tar out of the Rand Paul's and Establishment GOP candidates?

  • kbolino||

    Then win some elections. I don't understand what exactly is the point of calling out the numbers. Either you're in the majority as you say and you'll get to enact your policy (judiciary permitting) or you actually aren't and thus the numbers are wrong.

    Trying to throw around "everybody agrees with me" as some kind of argument for your position is nonsensical.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    But we currently do have limits on immigration. Not very foreigner who wants to enter the US can do so without permission.

    Heck Libertarians are 1% of the population and not even all of them want to have Open Borders.

  • kbolino||

    Ok, so what is your point? Either you have what you want or you don't, but regardless no Open Borders libertarian cabal is standing in your way.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    My point is that if we are going to limit immigration (and that's the gov't current policy) that we should be limiting Muslim Immigration in favor of non-Muslim immigration. And while that won't be 100% effective it can be done constitutionally by limiting or eliminating immigration from Muslim Majority countries.

    Does that suck for you if you are a Christian, Jew, Atheist or whatever in Syria or Yemen? You bet.

    But I am more concerned with the rights (and the loss of rights) of Americans than I am for some random third worlder who can't get into the US.

  • kbolino||

    Fascinating. Maybe in the future you can avoid whining about ("I know that won't fly with the Open Border Crowd") and just state your position.

  • mpercy||

    Perhaps not every foreigner, but 11-20M have already come here without permission.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    And 660+ million haven't

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    Sorry 6.6 billion haven't

  • Zeb||

    Well, we do have some sort of limits on immigration. Quite a lot actually. I think it is probably accurate to say that something around 98% favor something short of actually open borders. But of course that covers the range from letting anyone in who isn't obviously sick to building a wall around the whole country and not letting anyone in ever.

  • Suicidy||

    I am a proponent of your hot young Eastern European chick immigration plan.

  • DenverJ||

    He just said hot eastern European. He never specified female.

  • JW||

    John, don't be so defensive. I'm sure they'll be well taken care of in the camps.

    Now, report to the ICE booth for your daily citizenship test. Don't get the question on the World Series wrong.

  • Swiss Servator||

    HINT: It is NOT "The Cubs".

  • Ivan Pike||

    HINT: It is NOT "The Cubs".

    Now you tell me.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *CLANK*

    /Cell door slams shut

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Your solution is to send American-born Syed Farook "back" to Bumfuckistan. As well as Muslims with no Middle Eastern heritage. Thanks for your entertainment, Dave Chappelle and Ice Cube, but you need to get the hell out. Shaq, Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali have deceived America and seduced people to Islam for too long. And how can Fareed Zakaria still be allowed to speak on television??

    What a complex, nuanced, oh-so-American solution.

  • JW||

    Don't forget that Roger Murdoch guy. He looks shifty, and he's a pilot!

  • Swiss Servator||

    Does he like gladiator movies?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    So your shining examples of great American-born Muslim converts are... a comedian, a rapper, a basketball player who doesn't identify as Muslim, a rapist, and a boxer who thought white people were the devil?

    Well, then.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    we might have not have any choice

    One wonders just how many enemies of liberty have uttered those exact words?

    John, go clean the poopy from your pants.

  • John||

    No Frank, you wonder that because you are stupid and have latched onto an ideology as a substitute for thinking. Everyone else ponders how we are going to keep a free society while also dealing with this thread.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    It's clear your intention is not to keep a free society.

  • John||

    Yeah because nothing says free society like living in fear of mass murder. That is what you idiots can't understand, there is more to a free society than the government leaving you alone. You are in your own way as obsessed with government as the Progs. The progs think government is the source of all good and you idiots think it is the source of all evil. Sadly there is a whole lot of evil out there that has nothing to do with government. And having a small government is no guarantee of having a free society.

  • Zeb||

    there is more to a free society than the government leaving you alone

    Yes, but government leaving you alone is an essential part of a free society.

  • Calidissident||

    John, do you think getting rid of Muslims would eliminate mass murder? Most deaths due to mass incidents of murder (not to mention overall homicides) are not motivated by Islamic extremism.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    And nothing says free society like betraying a major reason people colonized America in the first place, and the liberty protected by the very first clause in the Bill of Rights.

    You want to ban an entire religion. The second-largest religion in the world.

    How is that a free society?

  • Suicidy||

    Given that the religion in question demands the death or servitude of all, we are probably a lot freer if we at least avoid importing more of those people.

  • LynchPin1477||

    Yeah because nothing says free society like living in fear of mass murder.

    I don't live in fear of mass murder because I know the chances or so small as to not be worth worrying about.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    John, you are indeed, an unprincipled, needy, cowardly gasbag.

    There is no problem to solve. Incidents, like these, are the cost of living in a free society. You can't prevent nutjobs from being nutjobs. You can only punish them for doing so after the fact. That's exactly what happened. These two committed a crime, and were punished for it. The system worked. Game over.

    You, on the other hand, are advocating for the elimination of a free society to solve an imagined problem. That makes you the very worst kind of coward. Not only do you shit your own pants, but you need to make others suffer to alleviate your fear.

    Fuck off, slaver!

  • ||

    Francisco, you are a credit to World Jewry.

  • bvandyke||

    +1 - Great response, I'm going to remember this (I hope).

  • robc||

    So we would deport Muhammad Ali back to Kentucky?

  • Suicidy||

    Damn straight!

  • Calidissident||

    John, literally advocating fascism and shredding the Constitution. What do you propose to do to Muslims born in the United States? Where are you going to deport them to? What about people who convert to Islam?

    And where is this line drawn? Can we deport other demographics that commit murder and/or terrorism at a higher rate? Conservatives might not commit terrorism at the same rate Muslims do, but they do commit it at a higher rate than many other groups, so is it ok to deport all of them?

    As a side note, is there evidence indicating that the overall homicide rate among Muslims is significantly higher than the general population? I know it is for terrorism, but that's a small portion of homicides.

  • Gray Ghost||

    I doubt it's tracked here, Cali, I'm only familiar with the FBI breakouts based on race and age, and I don't believe they look at the religion of either the perpetrator or victim. Assuming most US Muslims would be classed as White, non-Hispanic, I would therefore guess that their homicide rate would be lower than the average American's, assuming US Muslims were otherwise comparable to the US population in age and sex distribution.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    And where is this line drawn? Can we deport other demographics that commit murder and/or terrorism at a higher rate?

    I suspect immigrants from south of Texas would be placed on the wrong side of that line.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Really it would call for race-based deportation right out of the KKK's most feverish dreams. Remove black males 15-40 from the United States and you cut violent crime by not quite 1/2, if the FBI arrest figures are believable.

    Cutting violent crime by 1/2 is a decent goal; deporting people according to their race or religion is absolutely not a decent method by which to do so.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Really it would call for race-based deportation right out of the KKK's most feverish dreams. Remove black males 15-40 from the United States and you cut violent crime by not quite 1/2, if the FBI arrest figures are believable.

    Cutting violent crime by 1/2 is a decent goal; deporting people according to their race or religion is absolutely not a decent method by which to do so.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Is it better to acknowledge the squirrels, ignore them, bring gifts of corn, something else entirely?

  • Swiss Servator||

    Rum soaked acorns.

  • MiloMinderbinder||

    No, if they are born here, they can stay.

    People living here can still convert.

    But as along as there are limits on immigration (and that is the current policy of the US) then why not take in more Swiss ski instructors, Australian actresses, Dominican shortstops, German engineers, Brazilian models and Chinese Ttger moms and fewer folks from the 51 majority muslim counties.

    And yes there will be some Muslims in the groups I listed, but far fewer than if we keep the door open to the Saudis, Yemenis and the like.

    When you are in a hole and want to get out, the first step is to stop digging.

  • ||

    "Conservatives might not commit terrorism at the same rate Muslims do, but they do commit it at a higher rate than many other groups,"

    Do you have any proof of that statement ?

  • DesigNate||

    Oh my god. It makes so much sense now.

    John is the Bruce WIllis character in that Denzel Washington movie where the Muslims blow up a bus in New York and the government goes fucking retarded. What was the name of that?

  • RUExperienced||

    Pay no attention to all the bomb making materials in the house...

  • Hugh Akston||

    Like that Islamist Muslim jihadi terrorist James Holmes?

  • RUExperienced||

    That goes under the mentally ill category. Just as bad, but rarely comes with a partner.

  • Azathoth!!||

    Like that batshit insane terrorist James Holmes

    FTFY.

    You don't need to be a Muslim to commit terrorism--and Holmes was, very much, trying to instill terror.

    The bomb making--and the bombs, let you know that yes, this is terrorism.

    This Islamic couple were definitely terrorists--they successfully instilled terror.

  • ||

    It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. I doubt even Bruce Heffernan could figure it out.

  • Gray Ghost||

    He was not some disaffected youth with no future ready to embrace the nihilistic attitudes of the Islamic State. Having a job with government in remarkably poor San Bernardino County probably put him in the top five percent of household income in the area.

    Let's look at two of the latest 'radical' Muslim shooters' bios, and see if they correspond to being 'disaffected youths with no future'. First, Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez, the shooter of the recruiting offices in Chattanooga. Abdulazeez was an engineering grad from UT-Chattanooga and was set to go work at a nuclear power plant until he pissed hot for some recreational drug or another. He still made it as a supervisor for a wire and cable manufacturer. True, he had mental issues, including depression, and self-medicated. He still was doing quite a bit better than most people.

    Second, Major Nidal Hassan. Psychologist and Army officer. Unfireable, despite his pissing and moaning about going on deployments. Again, doing quite a bit better than most of the people in Temple, Texas.

    Go look at the leadership of ISIS or Al Qaeda. You'll find a lot of engineers, doctors, highly educated people who have been caught up in radical Islamic-inspired terrorism. The suicide bombers may be a bunch of misfits, but the guys steering them often aren't.

    OTOH, the shooters at the Garland, Texas Draw Mo Day festivities do resemble Mr. Shackford's profile of someone suitable for radicalization.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    There is nothing wrong with self-medicating emotional issues.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *nods in agreement, looks over at bottle of glogg*

  • Gray Ghost||

    You and I agree. The TVA and the Department of Energy don't.

    Considering how absurdly highly paid nuke operators are (82 grand, according to the link), he must have really liked his sleeping pills and weed. Or not have bothered to know how to beat a piss test. Not uncommon for the depressed, unfortunately.

    I'd feel bad for him and his obviously daunting mental issues, had he not killed those people.

  • Idle Hands||

    don't forget the boston bombers.

  • Idle Hands||

    not really gun related, but same kind of thing.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Unfortunately there's nothing stopping a couple of individuals from acting on their own on behalf of a global Islamic cause. I think it's entirely possible the world will see these types of events where the attackers have no connection, no contact with or no logistical support from any organized Islamic terror group.

  • commodious spittoon||

    In which case the real instigators are conservatives who bully minorities into committing heinous acts.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    A "global Islamic cause" sounds about as insane as any other crusade, like "war on drugs", "global warming", etc. But to a crusader, their crusade is always moral and just.

    If you want to vaporize all Muslims, I'd argue that you should throw all government employees and environmentalists into the ovens with them since they're all moral crusaders.

  • MSimon||

    Building ovens is expensive. Couldn't we just lob a few bombs we already have in inventory?

  • John||

    ^^THIS^^

    The disaffected loser is exactly the "ISIS profile" if there is such a thing. What it takes to be drawn to a group like ISIS is some abiding grievance against society. There is no particular "profile" for such a person beyond a completely oversized ego and sense of being a victim. The fact that this guy had a degree and a job says nothing about his sense of self importance or grievance against society.

  • ||

    the "ISIS profile"

    More like the GS-11 profile.

  • John||

    No. I am still trying to get Frank to sponsor me. He holds a tremendous amount of sway in the disaffected retard community. If he sponsors me, I am in.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    The disaffected loser is exactly the "ISIS profile"

    The disaffected loser is also the government employee profile, the SJW profile, the makes-too-many-posts-on-Reason profile, etc.

  • Zeb||

    If I had to make a bet, I'd say Islamic terrorism was the motivation. But there is no harm in waiting for actual information and nothing gained by racing to conclusions.

  • John||

    No Zeb there is not. The only problem is that the government is likely to lie about the motivation and the longer this goes without there being a conclusion regarding that the more able they are going to lie or just say "we will never know for sure".

  • Zeb||

    That may be. But a bunch of anonymous people on Reason trying to out-realist each other isn't going to help with that.

  • Cloudbuster||

    I hear Islamic terrorism was the explanation for the Waco Biker Gang shooting (Heh, pulling that one up from the memory hole!)!

  • Harun||

    Head of ISIS: PhD
    Head of Al-Qaeda: Surgeon

    I had the usual knee jerk progressive on Facebook show me the Malala "education stops terrorism" meme. So I mentioned these facts and told her that its simplistic to imagine these people are just uneducated...

    Two days later she links to Prager University video on who gets radicalized.

    I was stunned...a facebook comment actually caused someone to think.

  • Harun||

    Head of ISIS: PhD
    Head of Al-Qaeda: Surgeon

    I had the usual knee jerk progressive on Facebook show me the Malala "education stops terrorism" meme. So I mentioned these facts and told her that its simplistic to imagine these people are just uneducated...

    Two days later she links to Prager University video on who gets radicalized.

    I was stunned...a facebook comment actually caused someone to think.

  • Suicidy||

    Bin Laden was a well educated multi millionaire. He owned a mansion and a yacht.

  • ||

    "Farook, to anybody who lives in Southern California, appears, based on what we know so far, to have been a perfectly assimilated Muslim American."

    Just like the Tsarnaev brothers.

    He shopped at Ralph Lauren outlets just like us Americans and Canadians who border shop!

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I've seen you Canadians... in my town, on my street.

  • Swiss Servator||

    They're in yur storz, buyin yur goodz.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "us Americans and Canadians who border shop"

    How much does a piece of the US-Canada border cost?

    *ducks*

  • Charles Easterly||

    A gaggle of Canadian Geese?

  • ||

    It's this kind of language that leads us to terrorism.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "I think that is a maple syrup and poutine based IED!!!!"

  • Charles Easterly||

    Are you crying foul?

  • MSimon||

    fowl

  • Charles Easterly||

    Perhaps it was the immigration meme, Simon.

    Water off my back, as it were.

    Nice catch, though.

  • But Enough About Me||

    How much does a piece of the US-Canada border cost?

    Well, there are those of us who think it's essentially worthless, so...

  • bacon-magic||

    +72 poutine entrees

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    "How much does a piece of the US-Canada border cost?"

    One bag of milk, please, Sir.

  • mpercy||

    Weren't we warned about the Tsarnaev brothers by the Russians, too? And did nothing about them?

  • ||

    So. Have they been described as White Muslims yet?

  • Suicidy||

    Did they shoot any black thuggish teenagers?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    It's also possible that Farook, like several other mass shooters in the United States, developed some sort of serious mental illness that he managed to keep hidden from co-workers and friends, and this violence is the ultimate manifestation. It would seem strange that his wife would also be involved, but then keep in mind that the value of the Internet allows people to connect with other like-minded people on the basis of hobbies, politics, and other interests.

    That's always been my question-- and it's been that way long before the internet. How, for instance, do two people with the exact same kind of crazy marry each other?

    We know that in this case he met her online. Score one for the internet. But there are lots of cases where a crazy couple didn't meet online.

  • Swiss Servator||

    "We met in the foil aisle of the local store, while stocking up..."

  • bacon-magic||

    "We met in the local library researching the melting point of steel..." /Truther

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    "We met in the foil aisle of the local haberdashery, while stocking up..."

    FTFY

  • Swiss Servator||

    "I only wear handcrafted, artisnal foil headwear"

  • Entropy Drehmaschine Void||

    They may TELL you it's handcrafted ... so you don't look for the robots.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    Cupid's arrow has been dipped in radical Islam?

  • Hugh Akston||

    Couples can affect each other in both good and bad ways. Bonnie and Clyde probably reinforced and redirected one another's alienation and disdain. Even Epi has taken up weight lifting.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    It's the only explanation that makes sense, but I still scratch my head about how far that influence can go unless there's real core crazy involved. Case in point, those occasional couples that decide their child is possessed and must be killed. Someone raised the idea up the flagpole, the other saluted.

  • ||

    Uh, if I don't lift, Hugh, Warty will megarape me. You don't want to be megaraped, Hugh. You really don't.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Is Warty the "inducer" in this scenario?

  • ||

    But *you* do. You slut.

  • ||

    This isn't about me! Well, maybe it is.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Yeah...I am afraid to stop lifting, too.

  • bacon-magic||

    Unbind the chains Warty Hugeman has on you! /Uncle Joe

  • MSimon||

    I have taken up "Wait. Lifting."

  • SugarFree||

    Folie à deux

    Folie à deux (/fɒˈli ə ˈduː/; French pronunciation: ​[fɔli a dø]; French for "a madness shared by two"), or shared psychosis, is a psychiatric syndrome in which symptoms of a delusional belief and hallucinations [1][2] are transmitted from one individual to another.[3] The same syndrome shared by more than two people may be called folie à trois, folie à quatre, folie en famille or even folie à plusieurs ("madness of many"). Recent psychiatric classifications refer to the syndrome as shared psychotic disorder (DSM-IV) (297.3) and induced delusional disorder (F.24) in the ICD-10, although the research literature largely uses the original name. The disorder was first conceptualized in 19th-century French psychiatry by Charles Lasègue and Jean-Pierre Falret and so also known as Lasègue-Falret Syndrome.[4][5]

    Folie imposée is where a dominant person (known as the 'primary', 'inducer' or 'principal') initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (known as the 'secondary', 'acceptor' or 'associate') with the assumption that the secondary person might not have become deluded if left to his or her own devices. If the parties are admitted to hospital separately, then the delusions in the person with the induced beliefs usually resolve without the need of medication.
  • Charles Easterly||

    Alacrity, thy name is SugarFree.

  • ||

    Folie a deux et menage a trois egale fous a cinq!

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    The folly of two... I like that.

    Folie imposée is where a dominant person (known as the 'primary', 'inducer' or 'principal') initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (known as the 'secondary', 'acceptor' or 'associate'

    Jesus...

    "Hey honey, I think Jr. is possessed, what say we decapitate him?"

    "K... I'll get the axe."

  • SugarFree||

    It's sort of a small scale cult of personality. Imagine a domestic Jim Jones.

  • JW||

    French makes everything sexy.

  • Azathoth!!||

    It's the wampeter of your karass.

    Unless your karass is really a granfalloon.

  • But Enough About Me||

    Right. So, pitchers and catchers. Got it.

    It's amazing how often that kind of explanation is used...

  • MSimon||

    How, for instance, do two people with the exact same kind of crazy marry each other?

    They go to a person authorized to perform the ceremony with the correct paperwork.

  • widget||

    Syed is a popular Pakistani name. They don't name all their kids Muhammad. I am wandering a bit here, but I feel unsafe with my name. There is only one person in world with my name. It is not Ming Wu or Patrick O'Reilly.

    I need a juice box.

  • waffles||

    I need a juice box

    All I have is a gallon of coffee, a pack of smokes, and an eightball. But I'm right there with you.

  • Mr Lizard||

    Johnny Salami?
    Fuk Dat Bich?
    Charlie Murphy?

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    Syed, or Sayyid, basically means "lord" or "liege" or "master". It was originally a title given to Husain, younger son of Ali and Fatima, daughter of Muhammed and his descendants.

    It's now used as a given name, after Husain.

    (Hasan, the older son, was titled Sharif and his descendants used that title.)

  • Mike M.||

    What the fuck is the ISIS Profile"? This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. It's even dumber than saying that the purpose of the "Arab Spring" is to bring about Jeffersonian democracy.

  • Citizen X||

    I don't think the inventor of "Block Yomomma" has a lot of leeway when it comes to calling other peoples' phrases stupid.

  • bacon-magic||

    He shall never liveth that downeth. -Reason Deity

  • bacon-magic||

    *Diety
    I before E except after C.
    FMWAWC

  • ||

    Diety - adjective; describes a person focused on their diet. ex. - She wants to shrink her ass so she has become very diety.

  • Drake||

    What the fuck is a "perfectly assimilated Muslim American"? What exactly does such a person believe? Nobody seems to be answering.

  • Idle Hands||

    a green card and a job in miami?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    That Mohammad was a prophet, cheeseburgers are tasty, and rock'n'roll is righteous?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Aww, I'm on your whine-radar. I feel like a legitimate part of this community now.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *salutes*

  • In League with the Dark Ones||

    That Mohammad was a prophet, halal cheeseburgers are tasty, and rock'n'roll is righteous?

    FTFY

    Cheeseburgers are treyf but they're not haraam if the animal was slaughtered in a halal fashion.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    What the fuck is a "perfectly assimilated Muslim American"?

    Votes Democrat and regularly cashes checks from government.

  • ant1sthenes||

    What does it even mean? Dylan Roof was a perfectly assimilated White Trash American. He also followed an ideology that sanctioned killing people for bullshit reasons, so what exactly is that worth?

  • GILMORE™||

    Kasey Kasem

  • Cytotoxic||

    That more or less was the purpose of the Arab Spring. What it actually achieved...

  • brady949||

    Farook, to anybody who lives in Southern California, appears, based on what we know so far, to have been a perfectly assimilated Muslim American.

    Yeah...that's kind of the problem.

  • John||

    Exactly. That is the problem. You can't tell who is a decent person and who is going to blow a gasket and start killing people.

  • widget||

    Gen 2 Muslims do not assimilate in the West. I do not know if that nugget of information is relevant here, but it's true as the sky is blue.

  • Zeb||

    Hooray, let's make huge generalizations about large groups of people!

    Actually, wait. The sky is gray today. So carry on.

  • ||

    That is weapons grade stupid. "The West" is a particularly stupid catch-all. Where are the banlieus around Chicago or New York?

  • Swiss Servator||

    Bridgeport, IL?

    /wise-ass

  • widget||

    I have become hardened to that sort of criticism. Those Muslim occupied no-go zones in Sweden and France should give a clue of what's in store in for us. Maybe we just read different stuff on this Internet thingy.

  • ||

    Or maybe, just maybe WE AREN'T FRANCE OR SWEDEN. Ever consider that?

    Jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick, the Yokel Quotient may be exceeding unity today.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    Or maybe, just maybe WE AREN'T FRANCE OR SWEDEN. Ever consider that?

    I can't tell the welfare states apart.

  • widget||

    I prefer the expletive "Jesus Fucking Christ on a Cracker". If I read correctly we'll be in the same foxhole should push come to shove.

  • MSimon||

    The same foxhole? I have no intrinsic objection but could we do it sequentially? I not that into teh gay.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Those Muslim occupied no-go zones in Sweden and France are completely fictional.

    FTFY

  • ||

    Just as fictional as the no-go zones in New Orleans.

  • Cytotoxic||

  • DesigNate||

    Not that I don't believe you, but citing Bloomberg isn't very credible.

  • But Enough About Me||

    Where are the banlieus around Chicago or New York?

    As a Canuck, I thought New Jersey was always considered the banlieue of New York. Hell, I thought New Yorkers considered the entire planet as a banlieue of New York.

  • Cytotoxic||

    That's a lie. They assimilate just fine.

  • MSimon||

    It is their kids we have to worry about.

  • Rhywun||

    I live in the "Little Syria" of NYC. Most of the kids here look just like every other kid here: like little gangstas.

  • Gray Ghost||

    +1 Stanced Acura blaring Haida Wehbe out of an overdriven 12 incher.

    Dat fresh-baked pita doe...

  • mrvco||

    This reeks of workplace related violence rather than religious fanaticism / radicalization. Like most of these events, if the facts don't support the agenda, then the facts will be obfuscated into irrelevance.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    I'd say yes, right up to the point of the equipment and planning.

  • Drake||

    Your wife ready to go on a spree with you instantly? That was one devoted woman.

  • SFC B||

    He gave her a choice between anal and this...

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Sounds more like vanilla workplace violence than any sort of ISIS- or Queda-associated vendetta, especially given that there was apparently some sort of verbal disagreement prior to him leaving and coming back to kill.

    Could it be, stick with me here, that this guy was having some sort of conflict with another employee, lost his cool, and decided to come back and smoke the whole crowd?

  • tarran||

    That would explain why the pipe bombs didn't go off. You just aren't going to get adequate craftsmanship assembling them as your wife drives you to your impulsive mission.

  • John||

    To me the wife's participation makes it extremely unlikely this is some petty grudge or anything but Islamic terrorism. Wives and girlfriends go along on crime sprees or as part of terrorist groups. They don't go along with their husband to go postal on their boss.

  • Tak Kak||

    Maybe it dovetailed from one to the other?

  • commodious spittoon||

    "You *said* you want to feel included!"

  • Swiss Servator||

    Nice.

  • ||

    "What have we got?"

    "Mothballs... corn syrup... ammonia."

    "What's for dinner?"

    "Plastique."

    "That sounds good. What is it?"

    "It's a nitroglycerin base. It's a bit more stable. I learned to make it when I was a kid. Make sure there's none on the threads. Like this. Screw the end cap on. Very gently."

    "You must've had a fun childhood."

  • John||

    Name me a single other instance where someone went postal on their boss where their wife willingly went to their death to help? Also, name me another instance where the person brought pipe bombs and took off after the attack.

    It doesn't sound like workplace violence at all.

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Name me another instance where a terrorist went into the event to have words with the person they returned to attack.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Do we count yelling "Allahu Akbar" has 'having words'?

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    The going away and coming back part is what's leading me in the direction of workplace violence. These folks he killed were coworkers, is that correct?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Yes, I'm being a dick. Can I not be a dick? Why can't I be a dick?

  • lap83||

    And the wife wasn't. So the disgruntled employee motivation can't apply to at least one of the perpetrators

  • lap83||

    Maybe it applied to him but she had a different motive

  • Gray Ghost||

    If workplace violence, why the masks? Why the bombs? Why the unfinished bombs back at the house?

    Let's try this: they wanted to blow up or attack something else. But first, the holiday party. He goes to the party, drops off a backpack or two of love, and leaves. Tries to remote detonate it and nothing happens. Figures he's going to be fingered if he leaves things as is, and comes back guns ablazin' to remove what evidence he can, so he can do whatever later attack he originally intended.

    He doesn't count on his phone betraying him, or that witnesses would have recognized him shooting up the place. He also doesn't plan on massacres being more difficult to completely carry out than just showing up with a rifle and some mags.

    Whatever the eventual motive turns out to be, it just seems like a lot of excess preparation and activity if all he wanted to do was kill off some of his coworkers. And how do you get the wife to buy into doing all that?

  • commodious spittoon||

    It probably started out innocently enough.

    "Want to get some food?"

    "Sure."

    "What do you feel like?"

    "I don't know..."

    Fifteen minutes later they settled on massacre.

  • Citizen X||

    Dude i have had so many conversations like that with my wife.

  • Harun||

    Ok, then let's eat Jimboy's tacos.

    "No, I don't want that."

  • DesigNate||

    So like the opening/closing to Pulp Fiction, but without Samuel L. Jackson there to talk them off the ledge?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    If workplace violence, why the masks? Why the bombs? Why the unfinished bombs back at the house?

    With the evidence we have, I'm still not calling this workplace violence. I'm calling it an "unsupported terrorist attack". Am I jumping to conclusions? Of course, because I haven't sat down across from Farook and Company and asked him what his motivations were.

    And I am differentiating an Adam Lanza style attack from 'terrorism'. Yes, shooting up a crowd of people is "terrorizing" to the people getting shot up.

    But people like Lanza commit suicide and are probably completely out of their gourds-- they are probably dead in the center of a psychotic break. The attacks are uncalculated and not designed for an escape.

    Farook and co. looked like this was carefully planned (days ahead of time) and there seemed to be a route of escape- albeit not very realistic.

    Timothy McVeigh, for instance, was terrorism.

  • Drake||

    They were both wearing GoPro Cameras during the shooting. Why?

    If those images were uploaded they will terrify and appall people - the purpose of terrorism.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.co.....-massacre/

  • Drake||

    If he wasn't there when the event started, he may not have know where they were meeting, who was there, etc...

    Scouting before attacking isn't that uncommon.

  • Rhywun||

    I keep hearing he "used" to work there. Not sure what he was doing at the party if that's the case.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I keep hearing he "used" to work there. Not sure what he was doing at the party if that's the case.

    Huh, I missed this line.

  • SFC B||

    Well, he doesn't work there anymore...

  • ||

    My understanding is that he was an environmental inspector and the party was one for mental health professionals, so no, not co-workers.

    Was he being treated by one of the party goers?

  • EMD||

    The argument was a ruse to basically case the joint. Gave him a reason to leave the party.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    I get your point. But, think about it. The guy had what sounds like a remote controlled bomb. That isn't the sort of thing you have lying around the house and pick up on a fit of pique.

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Yeah but why would they go into the party, get into a verbal altercation, attracting attention to themselves, then leave and come back to kill when the could have just rolled up to the joint, popped out the SUV and done their business.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Maybe I'm going to sound weird here, but isn't it possible that the altercation was the reason for the choice of target? Guy might have been planning to do something for a while. Gets in a fight and decides the party is as good a place as any...

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Yeah that could be it.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    Guy might have been planning to do something for a while. Gets in a fight and decides the party is as good a place as any...

    That is plausible. If I was a terrorist, I'd pick a more appropriate target. One that fit my political objective. Shooting up your workplace doesn't fit.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    If I was a terrorist...

    Well, yeah. But, I've yet to see any evidence you're the sort of batshit crazy fruit loop who'd be a terrorist. Somehow, I'm guessing finely honed impulse control isn't the profile's strong suit.

  • Azathoth!!||

    It wasn't his workplace.

  • EMD||

    Easy target. You know they're not the type to fight back. Dead infidels and terror are all that count.

  • Francisco d'Anconia||

    But, then again, he may just be a stupid terrorist.

  • tarran||

  • ||

    You fucking copycat! I already referenced this above in response to you!

  • tarran||

    Nuh uh! You copied me!

  • ||

    Nuh uh! You stink!

  • John||

    What Bill said above. The fact that he showed up and got into an argument doesn't mean he wasn't planning on killing them anyway. Clearly he was, as evidenced by the pipe bombs and such.

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Right, but it lends credence to the theory that this was an interpersonal dispute, and that the killing was connected somehow to a specific individual or individuals.

    AKA not terrorism.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I disagree. I believe that the interpersonal dispute was "destined to be" because he was in "angry killing mode". He didn't get INTO angry killing mode because of a dispute, it was exactly the opposite. IMHO.

  • Harun||

    We don't know someone else started the argument. We are all assuming that the poor innocent Muslim guy was being unfairly treated by some mean, white Christian male.

    For all we know he had a female coworker who was an apostate or moderate Islamic who refused the niqab or whatever.

  • DaveSs||

    I'd say the choice of his workplace is likely a tactical decision

    1. He knew the layout...entrances, exits, corridors, driving routes to effect escape.
    2. He knew the kind of security it would have, how long it might take for cops to get there in force.

    Taking out a few specific people he may have had a grudge against is just extra.

  • DaveSs||

    I'd say the choice of his workplace is likely a tactical decision

    1. He knew the layout...entrances, exits, corridors, driving routes to effect escape.
    2. He knew the kind of security it would have, how long it might take for cops to get there in force.

    Taking out a few specific people he may have had a grudge against is just extra.

  • DaveSs||

    I'd say the choice of his workplace is likely a tactical decision

    1. He knew the layout...entrances, exits, corridors, driving routes to effect escape.
    2. He knew the kind of security it would have, how long it might take for cops to get there in force.

    Taking out a few specific people he may have had a grudge against is just extra.

  • DaveSs||

    Triple squirrel combo!!!!!

    What do I win?

  • SugarFree||

    John deports you.

  • ||

    *Takes off hat, throws it at Dave Ss*

  • Rhywun||

    Nothing, because it wasn't his workplace. Just a rented room.

  • Citizen X||

    The squirrels agree.

  • Harun||

    My worst fear is that he was bulled at work about his religion.

  • Rhywun||

    Which is ridiculous. Who would even do that these days - and in California?!

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Muslim couple (whatever happened to the third guy they were so certain existed before) during a period where Muslim extremists are threatening terrorism. Obviously well planned and well equipped. Bomb making materials in their home.

    I know, it's absolutely GOT to be Tea Partiers.

    Damn those Kochs!

  • Tak Kak||

    "Farook, to anybody who lives in Southern California, appears, based on what we know so far, to have been a perfectly assimilated Muslim American."

    Wouldn't this just be even more points for Muslim restrictionists?

    "Even the perfectly assimilated ones commit atrocities!"

  • MSimon||

    Major Hassan?

  • Harun||

    Also, it means gun control wouldn't work.

    He's a model citizen.

    He's not crazy. He's not a felon.

  • But Enough About Me||

    Indeed. An "enhanced background check" would've found precisely Jack and Squat on this guy.

    Your President's a dick. Unfortunately, we just elected his younger, whiter doppelgänger up here in Canuckistan.

    Sigh.

  • Tak Kak||

    "Also, it means gun control wouldn't work."

    Proof that guns simply need to be banned.

  • ||

    Mossad false flag. I know it, you know it, the whole world knows it. Let's not pretend.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    DNC false flag. This had to be done to finally turn the tide against the 2nd amendment.

  • waffles||

    They would have used a confederate flag neo-nazi dude and targeted non-government workers. The DNC doesn't gore their own sacred cows.

  • Drake||

    Exactly - it would have been the whitest, fattest Bubba ever. And the getaway car would have been the General Lee.

  • Rhywun||

    Sometimes you have to crack a few eggs.

  • Cloudbuster||

    Seriously?

  • ||

    No. It's called humor.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    If you call a man pretending to be an anti-Semitic child molester "humor", then my thoughts and prayers are with you.

  • ||

    How do you know I'm a man? Huh? HUH????

  • ||

    Anti-Semitic?!?

  • ||

    I happen to know that your real name is Epstein.

  • ||

    "Signed, Epstein's mother."

    I'm a Puerto Rican Jew?!?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    A white Puerto Rican Jew.

  • But Enough About Me||

    You could totally roll with that.

  • Swiss Servator||

    I ALREADY LAUGHED AT THAT JOKE, DON'T RUIN IT FOR ME!

  • Crusty Juggler||

    I plan on running it into the ground by 4.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *checks clock*

    Right-o.

  • Idle Hands||

    dude, what kind of sick person would talk about ice cream in a time like this?

  • widget||

    It's Joos all the way the down. Where am I, Taki Magazine?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    I saw thousands of Jews celebrating in Los Angeles.

  • ||

    I saw thousands of Jews celebrating in Los Angeles.

    That was the Oscars.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Well, Muslims do believe that abortion is impermissible after four months of gestation, and there was a Planned parenthood clinic 1.3 miles away. I think the motive is pretty clear.

  • Jerry on the rocks||

    Is it known why LAPD ran this guy's name last week?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Isn't the LAPD running everyone's name these days?

  • Crusty Juggler||

    . Farook may have become radicalized more recently; his new wife, from Saudi Arabia, whom he met online, might have played a role.

    Again, why has no one put the blame at Oliver Stone's conspiratorial feet for making Natural Born Killers twenty-one years ago?

  • Idle Hands||

    That movie did drive me crazy it was so terrible.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Only move I've ever nearly walked out of.

  • grrizzly||

    It was one of my favorite movies for a while.

  • Gray Ghost||

    One of the few movies I did actually walk out of.

    What a masturbatory piece of shit that was.

  • But Enough About Me||

    Or "Picnic at Hanging Rock." That one was a giant "WTF?" for me.

  • ||

    I always knew eHarmony was no good.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    Christian Mingle
    Muslim Mangle

  • commodious spittoon||

    I larfed.

  • Knutsack||

    Can it be a mix of religious fanaticism and workplace violence? I mean, he seemed pretty prepared for some sort of violence, like he was planning something.

    Unless, maybe he's just a Prepper.

  • ||

    That's what I'm thinking. He had already decided and prepared for some type of attack, and just picked a target that had pissed him off personally.

  • Cloudbuster||

    He was not some disaffected youth with no future ready to embrace the nihilistic attitudes of the Islamic State.

    Few of them are. Why do people keep peddling that myth? Bin Laden was a millionaire. The leaders of ISIS are highly-educated at Western universities. Middle class or better.

    The "disaffected youth" explanation is full of more holes than a holiday partier in San Bernardino.

  • Jerry on the rocks||

    40 years ago they would have joined the Red Army Faction.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    This is America. They would have joined the Weather Underground and met the guy who would later mentor a future President.

  • Rich Homa||

    If they're educated at Western universities, then they've been exposed to the notion that words aren't just vibrations in the air or marks on paper or pixels on a computer screen, but objects capable of doing physical damage to people. A snarl from a dog is morally equivalent to a byte. That means that if someone calls you a towelhead, you're entitled to shoot him.

  • Chipwooder||

    I'm fine with being cautious to determine motive, but this "doesn't fit the profile" thing is silly. Ziad Jarrah grew up in a rich, secular family and had a German girlfriend who he actually lived with for a time. Didn't stop him from being one of the 9/11 pilots.

  • GILMORE™||

    ""But there's little understanding at this point how or why Farook became radicalized""

    I missed the part where anyone bothered to decode the life-story of "Crazy Baby-Parts"-guy before declaring his motives patently-obvious

  • John||

    Or the guy who killed all of those people in South Carolina. We will never know what made him a racist who wanted to kill black people so lets not say racism motivated him.

  • GILMORE™||

    As per my comment below =

    Roof's racism was implicit from his scowling photos with confederate flag

    For some reason, there seems to be a reticence for any news media to share so much as a flattering-snapshot of the couple accused of mass-murder.

  • SugarFree||

    They've run a pic of the husband all day. Nothing on the wife.

  • SugarFree||

    Today showed the pic on this article about 20 times.

  • GILMORE™||

    "Today"?

    ... is that a news org, or a TV show?

  • SugarFree||

    No, no. You caught me. I must obviously be lying because I dared to contradict you.

  • GILMORE™||

    You didn't contradict anything, unless the Times, Post, AP, Reuters, etc. have been running pictures of the suspects that somehow i cant find anywhere.

  • GILMORE™||

    There are 3 stories linked on the WaPo front page about the shooting.

    There are 4 stories linked on the NYT front page about the shooting.

    Not one has a photo of the husband.

    Neither is there any photo on the constantly-updated front-page stories @ Reuters

    Do you have a link to an example?

  • SugarFree||

    No, just what I was watching on the news this morning. I guess I'm just carrying water for CAIR.

  • GILMORE™||

    "" I guess I'm just carrying water for CAIR""

    Is pretending anyone is accusing *you* of something a way of trying to pretend that my point isn't actually true?

  • SugarFree||

    Aw, someone isn't getting enough attention...

  • GILMORE™||

    Here's a question =

    is there a single major media outlet running photos of the perps on the front page?

  • GILMORE™||

    lets lower the bar =

    is there anyone running photos of the perps *in any context*?

    NYT attempt at a bio story on "the shooters" references his Facebook profile, but nary a pic to be had of the guy or his newlywed (*no wedding photos?)

  • GILMORE™||

    Same story @ WaPo - also not a single pic of either

  • Just say Nikki||

    I thought we were supposed to say they shouldn't show photos, because that was an incentive to commit mass murder.

  • Idle Hands||

    until they don't and than we bitch about terrible reporting. It's a vicious cycle.

  • GILMORE™||

    "I thought we were supposed to say they shouldn't show photos, because that was an incentive to commit mass murder."

    I'm pointing out that when someone commits mass-murder, they ALWAYS run a photo. There hasn't been an example of a shooter in the past few years where we were left wondering about 'what they looked like' for more than a few minutes.

  • Private Chipperbot||

    Daily Fail had some photos, but a few were weirdly out of focus. I wasn't sure why they bothered using those ones.

  • Just say Nikki||

    is there anyone running photos of the perps *in any context*?

    So...does this post somehow...not count? Is that because it only has a picture of the man? People don't seem to know much about the woman yet.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Yeah, like was she hot?

  • ||

    She was wearing a burqa, so it's kinda tough to tell.

  • GILMORE™||

    ""So...does this post somehow...not count? '""

    The question was specifically regarding the "news organizations" mentioned.

  • Just say Nikki||

    I thought "lowering the bar" meant it wasn't. Sorry.

  • GILMORE™||

    i.e. "somewhere other than the front page"

    e.g. the "miscellaneous bin"-reporting. they seem to be making room for things like 'photos of the victims', and "Daily News Headlines" making fun of GOP Prayers, etc.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    I have, like, 3 photos of me on my Facebook account.

    They got married in Saudi Arabia. It's easy to believe they have no photos or didn't upload them to a public account.

    Perhaps so far there really is no good-looking photo to share. Only blurry pics provided by the family, who probably aren't rushing to get the face of their dead mass murdering son/brother plastered all over TV.

  • Free Society||

    Unlike their Palestinian brethren who put up big celebratory posters and billboards of their mass murdering family members.

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    Pakistani-Americans are the "brethren" of Palestinians?

  • SugarFree||

    Juden sind Juden.

  • Citizen X||

    If you lump every Muslim in the world into a monolithic block, you can make all sorts of connections.

  • Free Society||

    If you lump every Muslim in the world into a monolithic block, you can make all sorts of connections.

    I didn't. I specifically said Palestinians, so as to exclude vast numbers and nationalities of other Muslims.

  • Free Society||

    Right there's no connection between the religion and culture of Palestinians in Palestine and Palestinian diaspora. Because they integrate so well everywhere they live.

  • Just say Nikki||

    Dude's Pakistani-American.

  • Free Society||

    Dude's Pakistani-American.

    Didn't say the dude wasn't.

    MJ said the family are likely in no hurry to have their mass murdering family member's face plastered around in public. I said that's unlike their co-religionists in Palestine that are specifically known for the exact opposite inclination for their mass murderers.

    Nitpick away though. I'm sure you'll slay that strawman real good and stuff.

  • Just say Nikki||

    Yeah. And you called them their "brethren." MJ Green then asked you why they were "brethren," and you responded with two comments that made you think they were...all Palestinians.

  • Free Society||

    Yeah. And you called them their "brethren."

    Yes, like the term religious people use to describe the members of their same faith.

    I was responding to three people's posts. Continue on being your insufferable self.

  • ||

    Because they integrate so well everywhere they live.

    Ever visit Orland Park? Largest Palestinian population outside of Jordan and Israel. Looks pretty much like every other western suburb of Chicago, apart from the concentration of excellent falafel joints.

  • ||

    If NYC is closer, visit Paterson.

  • ||

    http://www.wbez.org/news/cultu.....ago-105416

    Back to Bigot School, you can do better.

  • KDN||

    visit Paterson.

    This is the worst advice in human history.

  • ||

    We are in a war where our enemy is motivated by an ideology, not loyalty to any single faction.

    That these people were not motivated by or members of ISIS means nothing.

    *I am not asserting that his motivations were religious. I would be a bit surprised if they are not in some way connected to distaste for our culture but I haven't got enough info at this point to say anything definitive.

  • pronomian||

    You can't destroy an ideology, Just look at 6000 years of Judaism, 2000 years of christianity. Interventionism, the arrogance of believe that all other countries want what we have, freedom. Freedom to be as vial and corrupt in mind, body and spirit as one can. Not every body wants our freedom.

  • kbolino||

    Freedom to be as [vile] and corrupt in mind, body and spirit as one can. Not every body wants our freedom.

    Yes, those poor noble savages, with their purity of essence and spirit. They were blissfully communing with nature and living angelic lives before the dirty white man came along and spread freedom to them.

  • Free Society||

    You can't destroy an ideology, Just look at 6000 years of Judaism, 2000 years of christianity.

    And yet modern Jews don't promote or accept living under the totalitarian bullshit that Jews did 6000 years ago, nor do Christians today accept the religiously imposed social order of Christians from 1000+ years ago. Muslims, conversely, seem to yearn to replicate the barbarity from which their religion sprang.

    You can destroy ideology, even if it means watering down the barbarity.

  • pronomian||

    We know for a fact this cannot be islamic terrorism since el presidente said they are being rebuked by everyone getting together to fight global climate change. According to some lefties, this may have been a trigger because it was a christmas party, so we need to outlaw any assemblance of christianity (screw the first amendment if it offends a group) whether they be crosses, pictures, anyone saying merry christmas, rewrite some of our founding fathers letters (please, don't copy paste quotes that "prove" our founding fathers didn't refer to religion making me copy paste quotes they did. I don't believe all of them were christian), etc. If it was a trigger, he was so angry at the future Christmas party he went to Saudi Arabia to get his wife to help him. Even if it was an act of Islamic terrorism, this administration won't admit it, he said the events in Paris was a set back. Kerry slipped up and said there as legitimacy to the charlie hebdo attacks. The left news will say it's because of a lack of strict gun control, the right news will be quick to say it's because they're muslims and because we have porous borders.

  • ||

    Did you take a breath while typing that?

  • Swiss Servator||

    That was a great piece of word saladry.

  • MSimon||

    That "killing Jews" stuff is just political theater.

    Just a few fanatics.

    He is right. It is ALL the Jews fault.

    ==================

    Apologists for a certain famous German.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Udo Dirkschneider?

  • Citizen X||

    Uwe Boll?

  • waffles||

    Count von Zinzendorf?

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    I will not apologize for Katarina Witt.

  • But Enough About Me||

    Word.

  • Restoras||

    What about Claudia Schiffer?

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Interesting. I had no idea she was German.

    I um... I had never heard her speak for some reason.

  • But Enough About Me||

    You mean Sing mit Heino?

  • Swiss Servator||

    +1 Telefon

  • ||

    Uh, Sparks, that would include the Jews. Also, all of those Maronite (indigenous Lebanese) and Chaldean (ingigenous Iraqi) Christians.

  • ||

    Say "gelt" as the trigger word and you'll get a Hebrewcaust.

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    As long as they don't serve the desserts that taste like cardboard.

  • ||

    All Jewfood tastes like cardboard. It is truly one of the most wretched cuisines in existence.

  • bacon-magic||

    Execute Command Cold 66/ Emperor Ahchoo

  • pronomian||

    El Presidente wants to protect from mass shootings by making it more difficult for americans to defend themselves. Eliminating guns from a society sure worked for Paris. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would have been stopped here either, no one I know goes to a concert packing, or how does one stop a suicide bomber with a gun?

  • Harun||

    "he mentioned that he enjoyed reading religious books, but described himself as both "religious" and "modern." Modernity is not exactly what the Islamic State is looking for."

    This is simply not true. ISIS is very modern and uses modern tools to achieve its goals.

    In fact, I've watched a video of a ride-along with IS religious police where the guy says "people think that we don't want computers and technology, but its not true."

    Modern to us means modern social mores. Modern to other people means modern tools and whatever social mores they like.

  • Private Chipperbot||

    I don't think the argument was the catalyst for any of this. They dropped their kid off at the grandparents' place and said they were going to the doctor. I'm making an assumption, but would there be enough time to get into argument, storm out, go home, get kid ready, get guns ready, get bombs ready, drive to grandparents, drive back to party, start shooting?

  • Harun||

    I think its either a fig-leaf to claim work-place violence or unrelated.

    Might even be 3rd shooter who gets cold feet.

  • Sophbelle||

    This article infuriates me. At the beginning of the 2nd paragraph, it says how authorities are not immediately jumping to Islamist terrorism. Why would they? Are we now to assume from here on out any mass shooting is pulled off by an ISIS affiliate? Disgusting. Better check if Jeffrey Dahmer was an ISIS patriot as well.

    This paragraph also says that "Farook may have become radically more recently." MAY HAVE!
    Yet in the 3rd paragraph, he's suddenly become radicalized even though there is little understanding at this point how or why with what little information they have about him.

    But let's just go ahead and assume he was a radical ISIS national.

    If he was... he was. But what if he wasn't? Yet again, the assumption that any Muslim can turn to ISIS blows me away.

  • Harun||

    "the assumption that any Muslim can turn to ISIS blows me away."

    Was that an intentional joke?

    Also...yes, any Sunni muslim can join ISIS. ISIS tells them they should.

    Just like any white person can join the KKK if they really want to.

  • ||

    Are you trying to make some sort of coherent point?

  • MJGreen - Docile Citizen||

    ...This is like Underzog complaining last night that Reason wouldn't publish Farook's name, hours after Doherty updated the post with Farook's name.

  • Harun||

    MSM has played this beautifully.

    The narrative is now gun control. They've linked Islam to workplace violence and planned parenthood attacks. They are making them all the same.

    Now, maybe this guy did have workplace cultural issues...if you're going to kill 20 people why not take down that bitch Brenda in HR, amirite?

    My money is he'd planned a more serious attack, but the token conservative white guy at the party ribbed him too hard about being a s Muslim at a Christmas party and Farook initiated the attack that was supposed to be for somewhere else.

  • waffles||

    I went through my notes. Currently, I am writing a year-end report. One of the report tasks was to call county health departments and survey their interpretation of various laws and their acceptance of new technology. I spoke to at least three people in this office, but not the suspect. I know it's tangential but I sincerely hope they aren't among the dead. That does not sit well with me. I guess I am human, after all.

  • SugarFree||

    Officials: San Bernardino shooter apparently radicalized, in touch with terror subjects

    Warning: Autoplay

    Also, they show a picture of the husband... or am I just lying? Does anyone else see it?

  • GILMORE™||

    "" they show a picture of the husband'"

    I just scrolled through that and unless you're counting the video links in the sidebar... no.

  • SugarFree||

    The autoplay video does. But it's not digital print news, so it doesn't count.

  • GILMORE™||

    You seem to be going out of my way to confirm the point while pretending you've scored some magnificent coup.

  • GILMORE™||

    *ur way

  • SugarFree||

    No, no... I'm sure your vast media conspiracy is right on the money. Jihadi MSM!

  • SugarFree||

    Did you come by your abject cowardice naturally?

    Come on, be brave. Post under your regular handle. Or are you that afraid of what will happen?

  • GILMORE™||

    Observing that there are no actual pictures of the people they're running "Bio-Stories" on isn't quite a "conspiracy".

  • Cytotoxic||

    You really are a 13 year old girl pretending to be clever and 'edgy'. Epi redux basically.

  • SugarFree||

    You really are a 13 year old girl pretending to be clever and 'edgy'.

    That really stings coming from a bloodthirsty autistic.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Perfect. Exactly perfect. It's like you're doing this on purpose.

  • SugarFree||

    Not taking you seriously because you have all the intellectual heft of a feather? Yes. I am doing that on purpose.

  • Cytotoxic||

    AND projection! Perfect 10/10

    BTW even a feather would be more intellectually hefty than you. Circle-jerking with Epi and other 2Kool4Skool kids does not make you actually intelligent.

  • GILMORE™||

    They also have an embedded slideshow with 29 pics, none of which is the shooter.

    And they have an embedded graphic... of "Highest Guns Per Capita by Country".

    This was your counter-example?

  • SugarFree||

    No, it wasn't. I was linking to that fact that he was in communication with at least on terrorist, which bolsters the idea this wasn't workplace violence.

    The fact that the video shows a pic was just a thumb in your eye. But keep hawking your conspiracy theory.

  • GILMORE™||

    " keep hawking your conspiracy theory.'

    What "theory"?

    You're just being a petulant douche by trying to pretend that there's no merit to an observation that is fucking obvious.

    If someone commits mass-murder, and you can't find a single photo of the perpetrator anywhere in the pages of nation's largest news organizations.... that is noteworthy. Pretending its not is just being fucking obtuse.

  • ||

    I'm not going to go digging again on your behalf, but I've seen multiple photos of the guy.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Whoa... come on, you two. Can't we all get along on this? Don't make me choose sides here!

  • SugarFree||

    And why is it noteworthy?

    You know, I caught your insinuation just fine. Why are you getting so bent out of shape about it?

  • GILMORE™||

    'Why are you getting so bent out of shape about it?"

    I'm not bent out of shape by the fact at all.

    Your pretending that THERE IS NO FACT is irritating.

  • SugarFree||

    OK, fine. I admit it. A shadowy cabal of Media Creatures are Protecting Murderous Islam by not showing a blurry picture. There's no way they are just waiting for a better photo to surface. You caught them. If only the sheeple would wake up!

  • GILMORE™||

    "OK, fine. I admit it. A shadowy cabal of Media Creatures are Protecting Murderous Islam by not showing a blurry picture. '

    You really don't need me, do you? You have so much fun arguing with your own sockpuppets. You need to do some Yokel voices to go with it, like, WHATFOR AINT THEY SHOWING NO BROWNS PEEPLES?

    its that sort of thing that makes everyone feel humbled to be in the presence of your shining intellect.

  • SugarFree||

    For some reason, there seems to be a reticence for any news media to share so much as a flattering-snapshot of the couple accused of mass-murder.

    Let's see... I found a CNN report, Old Man found a CBS report, and Reason is running one on this very article.

    But let's ignore all that...

  • GILMORE™||

    yes, your sidebar thumbnail was very convincing next to the giant graph about Gun Ownership.

  • SugarFree||

    Once again, it was in the video. Which I'm pretty sure falls under "any media."

    But keep moving those goalposts. I'm sure that airplane fuel can't possibly melt steel.

  • GILMORE™||

    Your point was deftly made, and was crushing in its decisive rebuttal of my baseless assertion. I found the 9/11 juxtaposition particularly apropos, and indicative of your high-level wit.

    It would clearly be foolish, naive to expect a single photo of the perpetrator in the ongoing, live-updated, comprehensive coverage by the most pre-eminent news organization in America.

  • SugarFree||

    Wow, you've moved that goalpost so far. I'll never make that kick now.

    OK, The New York Times doesn't have his picture. So fucking what? They have a blog and an ombudsman. Maybe take it up with them.

  • GILMORE™||

    "OK, The New York Times doesn't have his picture."'

    Well, that took some time for you to digest. Maybe you should rest, or take a constitutional.

    Also... as noted in the first comment - neither does WaPo in any of their front-page linked stories (or any story, after crawling around there for a half-hour)... or among the photos in the front-page slide-show......

    ...and neither does Reuters anywhere in its live feeds, or its one-off-stories

    So What? NYT, WaPo, Reuters and AP are the best-funded, largest sources of raw news-reporting in the US. What they choose to cover (and not cover) has disproportionate impact on how people perceive news. Downplaying the identity of the shooter and instead talk about "guns and gun violence" as an abstract issue seems to be a conscious effort.

    The fact that the CNN example you tried to highlight featured "Gun Control" statistics rather than focus on the actual "Killer"-person... well, if that went over your head, i can understand.

  • SugarFree||

    Downplaying the identity of the shooter and instead talk about "guns and gun violence" as an abstract issue seems to be a conscious effort.

    So it is a conspiracy. Was that so fucking hard for you to admit? Or did you think you were being clever only insinuating it?

  • GILMORE™||

    "So it is a conspiracy. Was that so fucking hard for you to admit?'

    If that's what i wanted to claim, i'd use those words.

    instead, i've pointed out that they seem to be downplaying the shooter to instead highlight "guns & gun-violence".

    You can whine like an idiot that this sounds "conspiratorial" to you all you want. Its entirely possible lots of different people do the same thing for different reasons. It doesn't require "conspiracy" at all.

    what you haven't remotely done is prove my observation is incorrect. its just a fucking fact. Being obtuse and name calling doesn't make you seem 'smarter' by contrast.

  • SugarFree||

    OK. Your observation is correct. And you weren't implying anything whatsoever. Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

  • GILMORE™||

    hopefully you'll get your tampax-shortage sorted out soon

  • GILMORE™||

    It is sort of hilarious that you think anyone needs to "Imply" a "conspiracy" when the fucking spin is so shamelessly, blatantly obvious that it requires a frontal lobotomy to *ignore*

    equally hilarious = CNN has now pulled that "Gun Ownership" graphic from the above linked-story now that the story seems to be about "terrorism"

  • Swiss Servator||

    KNOCK IT OFF YOU TWO, I WILL TURN THIS CAR AROUND AND WE WILL GO BACK HOME!

  • Swiss Servator||

    SF - I can see some of Gilmore's point - every other shootist has their photos splattered all over...if I saw that creepy dude from the last school shooting one more time, I was going to puke. It is just a bit noteworthy - no conspiracy or WHYCOME THEY AINT SHOW MUZLIMZ PIKTURES.

    I happen to think it is because there is darned little available, and the family isn't going to say - "oh, here, have some pictures you can plaster up to show my killer kid to the world".

    I wish you two would just glare at each other, shake hands and get back to pulling the Koch barge...er, forget that last part, I said nothing!

  • SugarFree||

    Swiss,

    I also think it's just because there's just the one shitty picture. My problem is that in a few days, when they are plastering their better pictures all over the place, the conspiracy hounds will take credit for shaming them into it.

  • GILMORE™||

    That's not your only problem

  • Gray Ghost||

    Part of their problem SS, might be they don't want to run pictures of his near-identically named brother, and trigger a libel suit. There are plenty of pictures of his brother and his Slavic-origin wife floating around.

    But it is really funny to watch, and given Journolist was/is a thing, and importing refugees is evidently one of the few principles Obama stands for, I'm inclined to believe malevolence over incompetence in not showing pictures of the killers.

  • ||

    I happened to run into this one.

  • GILMORE™||

    I'm sure they'll run a full montage of his teenage years as a soccer-star soon.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    President Barack Obama hinted as much Thursday when he said that the attackers may have had "mixed motives."

    That's nice. I suspect Obama knows about as much about the motives as we do here: Not much.

  • Ceci n'est pas un woodchipper||

    Can we now all agree that just because not every single Muslim on Earth is a terrorist it doesn't mean that there aren't Muslims who are terrorists? Christ on a crutch, I can believe that some Muslims are terrorists without having to believe all Muslims are terrorists.

    Mean while, the scumbag-in-chief actually had the balls to say that we as a society need to step up to the plate and get rid of our guns--from within his secure, guarded compound staffed with personal bodyguards. Because, you know, when Islamic radicals go on a shooting spree it's because I want to own a Glock. Really, we're the ones to blame.

  • Harun||

    Notice how there is no information on the "verbal altercation?"

    If I were a reporter, I'd see if there were any other muslims at the party.

    Could be someone got cold feet, could be an apostate, could be a female muslim co-worker with uncovered hair.

    Religious quiet guy probably gets angry about religious issue.

  • R C Dean||

    I'll say this:

    There are some suggestive details - the body armor, the multiple loaded magazines, and especially the pipe bombs and the Go-Pro cameras they wore (assuming these are all actually real, because let's not forget how often early reports are wrong).

    But, c'mon. Let's wait a day or two, shall we?

  • Restoras||

    Why do that when you can shit your pants now?

  • Cytotoxic||

    So John is a fascist fucktard what a surprise. Not. If John the Fascist Fucktard is representative of the conservative movement at large then Hillary is looking like not such a bad choice for president.

  • Free Society||

    Pot, don't be so hard on Kettle.

  • Mazakon||

    Actually, since he included Hillary it's like pot meet kettle meet frying pan.

  • Mazakon||

    Actually, since he included Hillary it's like pot meet kettle meet frying pan.

  • Cytotoxic||

    You seem not to have much beyond sophistry and faux-cleverism. Like a dumber Ken Schultz.

  • Free Society||

    I'm just calling you a hypocrite. Where's the sophistry in that? As opposed to your little views on the issue whereby the goal should be to bomb them in their countries, then force people in this country to provide tax support and acceptance, of those same populations moving to this country, without exception. You're just piling on the irony now that you're calling someone else a sophist.

  • Swiss Servator||

    If we could only lure the two of them into the sarlacc... they could spend the next 2000 yelling at each other.

  • Swiss Servator||

    *2000 years*

  • Free Society||

    I had to google "sarlacc" because you just couldn't say "sandy vagina with teeth".

  • Rhywun||

    Here, have a photo.

  • Cytotoxic||

    " then force people in this country to provide tax support and acceptance"

    I'd ask you to stop lying but I'm pretty sure you don't know how.

    I'd also ask you to understand that wanting to bomb organizations that are trying to kill Americans while favoring open immigration is not in anyway hypocritical but then again you are the kind of person who styles himself an 'anarchist', uses 'free society' for a handle, and then bitches and moans at every opportunity about people immigrating into his country and taking r welfare. That you'd actually bring up 'hypocrisy' raises the possibility of negative levels of self-awareness.

  • Free Society||

    I'd ask you to stop lying but I'm pretty sure you don't know how.

    You love, as a multicultist, subsidized 3rd world immigration. You love, as an armchair general and coward, advising other people wage wars that you have no stake in yourself. No lies there. You are sophistry made flesh.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "You love, as a multicultist, subsidized 3rd world immigration."

    Again, with the lies.

    "You love, as an armchair general and coward, advising other people wage wars that you have no stake in yourself."

    More lies. I have plenty of stake in the war on ISIS and AQ. They hate me for my freedoms too.

    "You are sophistry made flesh."

    Stop. Just stop. I am a lot smarter than you. Smarter than you could ever be in all likelihood.

  • Free Society||

    Again, with the lies.

    You're the guy who said all immigration is good all of the time for everyone.

    I have plenty of stake in the war on ISIS and AQ. They hate me for my freedoms too.

    George Bush wants his child-like understanding of this conflict back.

    Stop. Just stop. I am a lot smarter than you. Smarter than you could ever be in all likelihood.

    I understand that you can't help but suck your own dick, but you should at least try not show off your talent too much.

  • ||

    "They hate me for my freedoms too"

    " I am a lot smarter than you."

    You may or may not be smarter than FS. I don't know FS.

    But you're not smarter than a fifth grader if you think your freedom is why they hate you.

    They hate you because you are a non Muslim and don't submit to Allah.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    "Farook" kind of looks like an Islamicized version of "Facebook".

    Think about it...

    *nods slowly while eating sunflower seeds*

  • Scott S.||

    I've updated with the latest news from the 10 a.m. press conference.

  • waffles||

    Thanks Scott.

  • GILMORE™||

    NYT is now saying = San Bernardino Shooting Investigators See Terrorism Links

    "The F.B.I. is treating its inquiry into the massacre here as a counter-terrorism investigation, two law enforcement officials said Thursday, based on materials the suspects stockpiled — including explosives — their Middle East travels and evidence that one of them had been in touch with people with Islamist extremist views, both in the United States and abroad.'

  • Illocust||

    Well it's nice to see some sanity.

  • Illocust||

    Nevermind, dear god the comments on that article are just painful.

  • Rhywun||

    It's the NYT - what were you expecting?

  • The artist known Dunphy||

    Yet again - video exonerates officer against false claim

    W/o video you can't PROVE you didn't point your gun

    We know this- that's why polling shows 70% of line cops want bodycams

    And yes, it's a bargaining issue so even in cases where officers want them they will still use it as a union bargaining issue

    Quid pro quo n stuff

  • ||

    The guilty flee when no man pursueth.

  • Swiss Servator||

    OMWC FTW!

  • tarran||

    It's dunphy, the liar and notorious apologist for murderers.

    Once people got his measure, they stopped interacting with him, and so he's pretty desperate for attention.

    Treat him s you would a fat panhandler wandering down between the cars stopped at a red light with the cardboard sign declaring him to be a homeless vet.

  • The artist known Dunphy||

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    Color me surprised that you'd try to disguise a policeone link with tinyurl.

  • tarran||

    Yet you clicked on it, and told him you clicked on it. Tossing a dollar at a panhandler just means he'll come back tomorrow asking for another one. ;)

  • Plàya Manhattan.||

    For the greater good. Now, nobody else is going to click on it.

    You're welcome. I like my apologies in the form of beer, please.

  • tarran||

    Yet you clicked on it, and told him you clicked on it. Tossing a dollar at a panhandler just means he'll come back tomorrow asking for another one. ;)

  • Swiss Servator||

    "WILL POLICE BRUTALITY FOR PENSION"

  • LynchPin1477||

    his new wife, from Saudi Arabia

    ...

    Malik is from Pakistan

    ??

  • Scott S.||

    Updated info. I think they may have met in Saudi Arabia but she's from Pakistan. Because the information is all so sketchy right now, we end up with this contradictory info.

  • Ceci n'est pas un woodchipper||

    According to the WaPo article the current thinking is they met on hajj a couple years ago and got married.

  • Swiss Servator||

    Some enchanted Hajj you may see a stranger
    You may see a stranger across a crowded Kabaa
    And somehow you know, you know even then
    That somewhere you'll see her again and again

    Some enchanted Hajj, someone may be circumambulating
    You may hear her ululaqting across a crowded Kabaa
    And night after night, as strange as it seems
    The sound of her ululating will sing in your dreams

    Who can explain it, who can tell you why
    Fools give you reasons, Reason will never try

  • ant1sthenes||

    Ah, there's the problem. I think at some point Sauron corrupted the black stone like he did with the Palantir, so now it infects people with evil instead of taking it away. Would explain a lot.

  • Rt. Hon. Judge Woodrow Chipper||

    the origins of the rifles are still being researched.

    Probably iron and coal.

  • Swiss Servator||

    You're married to this piece. This weapon of iron and wood. And you will be faithful.

  • Azathoth!!||

    I think the most curious thing is that they've had the --still alive-- Planned parenthood shooter in custody for a while now and all we've gotten about his motives is the purported mumbled line 'no more baby parts'. He hasn't said anything else?

    And I don't understand how the Islamic couple that committed a terrorist act can be absolved of that act simply because they're not ISIS or Al Qaeda. Why do they have to be either? One can fight for Islam without joining a group.

  • GILMORE™||

    " all we've gotten about his motives is the purported mumbled line 'no more baby parts'. He hasn't said anything else?"

    I BET YOU THINK 9/11 WAS CAUSED BY SPACE ALIENS TOO

  • Just say Nikki||

    He hasn't said anything else?

    Video from whatever hearing he went to earlier this week made it seem like he was on a lot of drugs, so...possibly not?

  • Illocust||

    It'd be really funny if it turned out he was on some sort of bad trip and trying to stop the cats from eating our souls or something like that. Funny as in motivationally funny, not funny as in people died.

  • Just say Nikki||

    To be clear, the state is medicating him.

  • Swiss Servator||

    THEY ARE SUPPRESSING THE TRVTH!!11!11!!!oneoneone!!11!!eleventy

  • Swiss Servator||

    He is Agile Cyborg's evil uncle?!

  • Hank Phillips||

    I'm sure we'll have enough information about the time the head anchor at Fox News is Buck Abshalla Mohammed Ahmed Al-Salaam and their field reporters are Jerry Mulhallah Al-sharid and Susie Tashfeen Mohammed Muammad. Then it's be old news nobody is interested in.

  • Ceci n'est pas un woodchipper||

    Oh god. I made the mistake of looking at the forums on the WaPo article. The Progs are absolutely jubilant. Some idiot is ranting about the NRA. It's genuinely depressing.

  • Illocust||

    New York Times commenters are the same way. It really doesn't make sense to me. The attack in Paris is too recent for them to be able to claim that better gun control laws would have stopped a terrorist attack, and having the son of an immigrant and a immigrant commit a terror attack also screws them on the whole refugee thing. Moderates aren't going to view this as a reason to control guns. Especially with it happening in California.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    I'm wondering whether this is a honor killing. They are from societies controlled by honor/shame, unlike our western guilt/merit way of keeping society working. If so, then I can understand him getting his wife to join him in regaining his honor if he felt that someone (someones) had dishonored him.

  • John||

    Maybe. But against 14 people? Honor killings usually happen to one person. The guy who dissed me, or deflowered my daughter and so forth.

    In a way the usual guy going postal killings are honor killings. The person doing it feels disrespected and views killing the other person as the only way to save their dignity. So if this was an honor killing it really is just workplace violence, which seems unlikely given the facts discussed above.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    I don't disagree that this is unusual for what we in the west associate with honor killing. However, my point is not to discredit the terrorism theory, but to suggest that terrorism is about honor/shame, too. Furthermore, if faruk killed his co workers because they shamed him, then this clash of civilizations has ratcheted up a notch.

  • ||

    "They are from societies"

    He's from California.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    Yes. So California has no civilization?

  • John||

    The problem is Libertarianism can't account for radical religious ideologies like this. A libertarian society can only exist if everyone in it leaves everyone else alone or can be deterred into doing so by the threat of self defense or government sanction. Libertarians have a bad habit of forgetting that and thinking government is the only threat to our freedom. Government is usually the threat to our freedom but it is not the only one. If I can't express myself or wear the wrong clothing in someone's eyes or hold an opinion without risking my life, I am not free. And if the person wanting to kill me views dying in the process as a feature, my ability to defend myself is likely to no good. The point of self defense is to deter and not use it.

    Libertarianism cannot account for a group of people who won't leave anyone alone and is happy to die making their point. They can't be deterred and you can't act on them consistent with Libertarian principles until they do something. Acting after they have done something is too late. The point is to deter everyone else and sow terror and killing the terrorist after the act does nothing to solve that.

  • John||

    Really the only solution to such a group is either ignore them and let them do their worst or not allow them in your society in the first place. Well, you can't kick them out consistent with Libertarian principles. Ignoring can work but only if there are a few of them. If there are enough of them, ignoring them allows them to destroy your free society via terror.

    Libertarians have no answer to that dilemma. it is where their ideology runs into its limits. This entire thread is nothing but ideological libertarians who are used to not having to think and letting their ideology do their thinking for them struggle with that issue. The struggle isn't going well.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Blah blah blah

    John you should just save yourself the effort and us the walls of text and write down "We have to destroy freedom to save freedom." Because it's painful to watch you pretend to know how to think.

  • ant1sthenes||

    Show me how free you are, bro. Go draw a picture of Muhammed and put in online under your real name. Nothing offensive (unless you want), just an exercise in freedom of speech. Granted, as a Canadian, you should probably be more worried about your blasphemy being punished by Trudeau than ISIS.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Cool story bro. Very relevant and on point.

  • John||

    You know his point. And you have no answer to it. So you do like every other ideologue on here and pretend snark is a substitute for thought.

  • Cytotoxic||

    No I don't know his point John or how it's relevant to what I said in the first place.

  • Idle Hands||

    c'mon just because people have answers you don't like doesn't mean they have no answer.

  • John||

    They have an answer. The problem is that the answer doesn't work. The only answer they have is to do nothing and deal with the person after the act. That works as long as the acts are rare and the group of people I describe very small. Let the acts become more common and the group larger and that fails utterly as the group uses terror to destroy your free society.

    We already live in a less free society thanks to Islamic terrorism. People are afraid to do things like draw Muhammad or make frank or cutting criticism of Islam the way they do other religion out of fear of death. It makes no difference if people don't do or say something because the government threatens them with jail or some lunatic threatens to behead them. You are just as unfree in either case.

    Libertarians have a hard time comprehending that. And stupid Libertarians like Frank and Cytoxic can't even begin to do so.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "We already live in a less free society thanks to Islamic terrorism."

    Still vastly freer than the one you propose.

  • John||

    Sure Cytoxic, they won't demand more. Just do nothing and go along. I am sure that will work out real well. And the one I propose is less free only in the sense that you can no longer be one particular religion. How is that any less free than the one we have now where you are not free to criticize that religion?

  • Cytotoxic||

    "How is that any less free than the one we have now where you are not free to criticize that religion?"

    It isn't but since that world is a fever-dream fantasy of yours it's not worth discussing.

    "I am sure that will work out real well.'

    It has everywhere else.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    Deporting all muslims is impractical, John. Perhaps the rabble rousers and the radical imams could be deported, but only if they are not yet citizens. If they are citizens then the first amendment gets in your way. I don't see your plan working, ultimately.

  • Cytotoxic||

    There's also the whole 'it's evil' problem.

  • John||

    Hyperbolical,

    The first amendment can be changed. The bigger issue is getting rid of the Muslims you have doesn't prevent people here from converting.

    It is one hell of a problem. There will always be losers with an elevated sense of importance looking for a cause and a way to avenge themselves on society. It used to be those sorts of people became ordinary criminals. Radical Islam gives them a way to become terrorists. And that is a difficult problem.

  • kbolino||

    The first amendment can be changed.

    Yeah, that's gonna go well.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    Well, as I suggested earlier, one big issue is that most non-westernized societies are based on honor/shame. They'd rather die in honor than live in shame. There is no logical argument against that. This is the big thing we need to deal with. Even if they convert to Christianity, they'd still be honor bound like medieval Christians. In fact, we need only look to the hollers of Appalachia to find nominal Christians battling for their honor. It's their worldview that's the problem. It doesn't fit in our society. But I'm still against mass deportations.

  • kbolino||

    Your problem is that you cannot separate government from society.

    Nick Gillespie, Shika Dalmia, and Sheldon Richman aren't smart enough or else are too committed to the narrative to realize the consequences of the bullshit they say. But they are not the only voices.

    Saying that libertarianism can't account for these sorts of things is patently absurd. The 2A has the stated solution built into its wording. That "militia" bit that the left disingenuously claim means guns can only be held by the government actually means that, in times of threats to the liberty of all, the people can and should organize to defend themselves.

    But the problem here is that nothing, no ideology and no system of government, is capable of dealing with every single threat. You are like the socialists complaining to Milton Friedman that capitalism "cannot account for" the rise and fall of the business cycle. Well what economic system has ever practically delivered upon a promise to ensure stability?

    Accepting that there will be ups and downs and dealing with them accordingly is exactly what libertarianism is all about. Because there is no system that can override human nature.

  • John||

    Saying that libertarianism can't account for these sorts of things is patently absurd. The 2A has the stated solution built into its wording. That "militia" bit that the left disingenuously claim means guns can only be held by the government actually means that, in times of threats to the liberty of all, the people can and should organize to defend themselves.

    I agree with that. The problem is that the only way to defend yourself against someone who is willing to die trying to harm you and doesn't reveal himself until he does, is to kill him first. If you kill him after he attacks you, it is too late. Be it a militia or you personally, I don't see how you can do that consistent with Libertarian principles.

    And yes, no ideology is perfect. That is my point. It is not to say that Libertarianism is bad or not the best ideology overall. I am saying there are times when it doesn't work and you have to step away from your principles and face reality and make hard choices. Doing that is hard and is too hard for most ideologues since it requires doing more than just letting your ideology think for you.

  • kbolino||

    I don't expect Nick Gillespie to be leading the Charles Martel Brigade but I don't see anywhere you have identified a failing of the ideology. If you think you have to go around killing the Muslims before they kill you, then you need to get enough people on your side to do that effectively. But don't be surprised if there is some resistance.

    All of this boils down to, you want the government to get rid of Muslims to avoid it having to come to violence. Well let's set aside the fact that that is illiberal as fuck. How are you going to identify all of the Muslims, how are you going to get the courts to sign off on this (even Korematsu has its limits), and where are you going to send them all? What happens if this plan ends up resulting in violence anyway?

  • John||

    If you can't deal with a problem and ensure a free society without acting against the principles of the ideology, the ideology has failed you. I don't see how you can say I haven't identified a failure of the ideology. Let me restate it.

    Libertarianism cannot deal with the existence of a significant number of religiously motivated fanatics within a society because it can only deal with such people after they have committed a bad act. Since the people can't be deterred and the purpose of the bad act is to terrorize the rest of society into submission, dealing with the wrong doer after the bad act is useless and only doing so allows the group to destroy a free society.

  • SugarFree||

    We have to destroy the free society in order to have a free society. Cool story, bro.

  • John||

    Or maybe we are fucked Sugar Free. But you tell me how you would deal with it? Do you really think a society where anyone who doesn't toe the line of a small group of religious fanatics risks being killed is free? And if not, then what the hell good does having a wonderful government do anyone is such a society?

    The more flippant you are the more obvious it is that you have no answer to that dilemma which is of course my entire point.

  • SugarFree||

    The more flippant you are the more obvious it is that you have no answer to that dilemma which is of course my entire point.

    Or there are more choices in between "Invite every terrorist here to killed us" and "deport all Muslims!" Because one is a strawman you have lovingly constructed and the other is full on fascist police state.

    Oh, and this shows your much touted concern for religious freedom in the case of The Little Sisters and Hobby Lobby and the Christian bakers to be exact what I've always thought it was... complete bullshit. Culture War Bullshit.

    You don't give a fuck about religious freedom.

  • John||

    Or there are more choices in between "Invite every terrorist here to killed us" and "deport all Muslims!" Because one is a strawman you have lovingly constructed and the other is full on fascist police state.

    Okay, what are they? I am all years waiting for your answer. And how exactly do you plan not to invite every terrorist here to kill us and also maintain open borders?

  • ||

    One of the great failings of modern Western civilization has been to treat Islam strictly as a religion because it calls itself one.

    Heavens Gate called itself a religion but they were treated as a cult by the legal system.

    Koesh acted under the guise of religion but Bill Clinton and Janet Reno treated it as a cult.

    Islam is more than a religion. It is a legal system, it is a social system. In Muslim dominated countries it functions as a government.

    As long as the West continues to act as though Islam is simply a religion and treats it with the protections afforded religions by Western Civilizations we are fucked.

    We didn't treat Communism. Facism, nor Nazism as a religion why should we insist on treating Islam as one. It will continue to spread and insist on submission to Allah until we treat it the same way we treated those ideologies. We can't wait until it has national borders to accurately define it.

    Our current leader won't even admit to it's existance. .

  • kbolino||

    Since the people can't be deterred and the purpose of the bad act is to terrorize the rest of society into submission, dealing with the wrong doer after the bad act is useless and only doing so allows the group to destroy a free society.

    If you knew who the wrongdoer was before the fact, then you don't have to sit around waiting for him to commit the crime. Apparently the problem with libertarianism is that every other ideology has the benefit of telepathy.

    What it ultimately boils down to is your inane belief that a government of easily cowed morons is somehow going to usher in the new, terrorism-free utopia.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Somehow, in Johnworld, if something bad happens ever then libertarianism has failed. That's basically what his 'notion' boils down to.

  • John||

    Of course you don't know who it is. That is the problem. All you are doing is pointing out the problem. No shit, we don't know which they are but we do know what religion they are.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Which does not inform us as to the motivation of this attack or much else, as much as you like it to notwithstanding.

  • kbolino||

    No shit, we don't know which they are but we do know what religion they are.

    They also breathed air, had black hair, came from countries between Egypt and India, and were between the ages of 25 and 30.

    If you want to say that we have to get rid of all the Muslims, then you need to stop dodging my questions.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    You guys need to distinguish between Muslims and Wahhabis. They aren't the same thing. It's like comparing Southern Baptist Convention Baptists to the Westboro Baptists. It's an enormous difference.

  • kbolino||

    You guys need to distinguish between Muslims and Wahhabis.

    I am well aware of the distinction. However, that is not really relevant to the discussion at hand.

  • Hyperbolical (wadair)||

    You guys need to distinguish between Muslims and Wahhabis

    This is a very good point. The Wahhabis and the Salafis are violent haters more dangerous to other Muslims than to westerners, in general. The Wahhabis have been evangelizing the world with Saudi billions for several decades. They had early connection with the Nation of Islam and Farrakhan. Seems like the Washington DC sniper was an American born Black Muslim from Farrakhan's institution.

  • Rhywun||

    Libertarianism cannot deal with the existence of a significant number of _______________ within a society because it can only deal with such people after they have committed a bad act.

    Yet we accept this for any number of other values you can use to fill in the blank. Drunk drivers, for example.

  • John||

    Sure Rywun. You can. The problem is when people start killing for those values with the idea of terrorizing the rest of us into submission. That is what Libertarianism can't account for. Islam is just the current example but there could be others.

    The problem is that freedom is only good if everyone else is willing to respect your freedom at some level. If they are not, then you are not free and no amount of small government is going to change that.

  • Citizen X||

    Isn't that sort of a description of due process? Punishing people for bad actions that they have committed rather than ones they might commit in the future?

    Due process is such a quaint idea, i know.

  • ||

    Really the only solution to such a group is either ignore them and let them do their worst or not allow them in your society in the first place.

    I guess we should start by deporting you then.

  • John||

    Or you could think a little bit and offer a third solution. How about that? Or is that just too hard?

  • sarcasmic||

    A... Final Solution?

  • DEATFBIRSECIA||

    Yowch.

  • Citizen X||

    You know who else...

  • Swiss Servator||

    Alex Trebek?

  • ||

    We'll start with liquidating you then? Help me out here John, in the spirit of compromise and understanding I'm willing to step away from my libertarian principles and make some hard choices to deal with the issue of having you in our society.

  • John||

    It sucks doesn't it? I am not saying this is an easy problem or that the choices are anything but horrible. Clearly, we haven't gotten to the worst yet and hopefully won't.

    That said, maybe we need to think about not letting any more Muslims into the country. And we do that not because we hate Muslims but because we don't want to get to some horrible point in the future. And maybe we should also make it clear that we are no longer going to cowtow to the delicate feelings of Muslims or treat them as some victim group and make it very clear that terrorism is going to get t hem nowhere.

  • ||

    No, no, John. The issue is having you, John, in this country with your principles that are an anathema to a free society. What should we do about you in particular?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    John, it is worth pointing out that at the moment, the US population of Muslims is insubstantial and not particularly prone to terrorist attack. The best and easiest solution to avoid the problems of Europe is not to attack our native Muslim population, but to avoid importing the problems of Europe and the Middle East. This is a solution which should appeal to all but the most radical libertarians, and is much less likely to eliminate our freedoms than any other, while also solving the problem of containing Islamic radicalism in our country.

  • John||

    It is. And no question that this event does not justify drastic measures. It is not however unthinkable that we could get to a point where circumstances leave us no choice. Right now "ignore it and get the bastard who did it" is largely working, though as I point out above we are less free now thanks to the presence of Muslims in our society. There is however no guarantee that state of affairs will continue. In fact, there is at least a decent chance they won't. And it does no good to pretend that could never happen. It absolutely could.

  • lap83||

    I think it will get worse before it gets better. The administration lives in an alternate universe where climate change and teabaggers are the biggest threats to society.

  • Cytotoxic||

    "avoid importing the problems of Europe and the Middle East"

    What does this mean? Cut off immigration? Because that's an unacceptable infringement of freedom of association.

  • Free Society||

    Immigrants traveling here on their own dime and integrating is one thing. Immigrants being "imported" at tax payer expense is something else entirely.