Trump's Executive Order Prohibiting Flag Burning Is Unconstitutional
The president is the last person who should confuse protected speech with incitement to violence.
President Donald Trump issued an executive order prohibiting the burning of the American flag on Monday. There's a big problem with the order, though—one that Trump even acknowledged in his press conference touting the E.O. Flag burning is clearly protected by the First Amendment, and the Supreme Court has twice affirmed that this is so.
Moreover, any administration that purports to care about freedom of speech should easily reach the conclusion that criminalizing provocative yet nonviolent acts of political expression is a violation of this principle, even if the constitutional issue was not so cut and dry.
It's understandable why people don't like flag burning. The flag is a visual representation of the principles upon which America was founded, and when it's disrespected, many Americans take it as a sign that those values are being treated with contempt.
"Flag burning, all over the country they're burning flags," lamented Trump, as he signed the order.
Free speech, though, is among the most fundamental American values of all. The right of Americans to speak their minds is enshrined in the First Amendment; importantly, this right does not apply solely to benign, polite, socially acceptable speech. As one hundred years of Supreme Court jurisprudence has made clear, the First Amendment also protects hateful speech, wrongful speech, angry speech, criticism of the government, and so on. There are some exceptions to the First Amendment, but they are incredibly narrow—and importantly, they do not include flag-burning.
That's because the Supreme Court ruled on this very issue in the landmark 1989 case Texas v. Johnson, which overturned 48 state laws prohibiting desecration of the American flag. In response, Congress passed a federal law that prohibited flag burning, and the following year, the Supreme Court reached the exact same conclusion in United States v. Eichman. If the state-level bans are unconstitutional, and the ban implemented by Congress is unconstitutional, then you can pretty safely bet that the executive order version is even more obviously unconstitutional.
That's not how Trump sees it, of course. While signing the ban, Trump noted that the Supreme Court decisions on this issue were both 5–4. It's certainly possible that a future Court could rule a different way, and the composition of the Court has drifted further to the right since the early 1990s; on the other hand, there's little evidence that the current justices embrace a more limited view of the First Amendment.
With that in mind, the executive order grapples with the actually existing Court precedents in creative fashion, introducing the idea that while flag burning itself might be protected speech, flag burning "that is likely to incite imminent lawless action" could still be criminalized. This is true to the extent that incitement is one of the exceptions to the First Amendment. It isn't specific to flag burning though—an expressive action that incites other people to engage in specific, direct lawlessness might be outside the bounds of the First Amendment, whether or not the action has anything to do with the flag.
The key word there is might, however. There's obviously a fundamental difference between engaging in speech to directly advocate for a lawless action and burning the American flag, the latter of which is not a specific call for violence and lawlessness but could inspire others to commit lawlessness and violence.
It's a difference that the president should well understand. On January 6, 2021, in response to Trump's speech disputing the outcome of the 2020 presidential election, his supporters marched to the U.S. Capitol and rioted. Though their actions were undoubtedly sparked by Trump's remarks, Trump never instructed anybody to commit violence or lawlessness; on the contrary, he told them to "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard." For that reason, Trump should have been cleared of incitement charges. (He was never criminally charged for incitement; the U.S. House of Representatives impeached him on this basis, and the Senate acquitted him.)
Unfortunately, Trump's executive order clearly seeks to erode this clear distinction between expressive acts that could inspire lawlessness and expressive acts that directly call for lawlessness.
"What happens when you burn a flag is the area goes crazy," said Trump, offering a justification for attempting to ban flag burning yet again.
If the federal government could abridge speech because other people might react negatively to it, then the First Amendment would cease to be a useful defense against censorship. The Trump administration should not even attempt to make this more of a reality, even while the Supreme Court is likely to thwart them.
In fact, Trump should take more of his cues from the late, archconservative Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, who twice sided with the majority and overturned the prohibitions on flag burning, defending his opinion thusly: "If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing, scruffy-bearded weirdo who burns the American flag. But I am not king."
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Example number I've-lost-count of Trump doing something that he knows is in violation of the Constitution and of SCOTUS rulings. He doesn't care.
Now you are against Anti fascist actions? This law is going to impact US flag makers profits negatively, that's not fascist.
Potus is becoming a socialist and sarc becomes totally confused.
I am curious, is there laws against hate speech? What would be considered hate speech that can be charged? I think arson is considered a hate crime?
You prove Ron White to be correct every time you make a comment.
Are you:
Sarc “Tossed Salad” asmic?
You gotta give Sarc at least TWO 40’s for him to toss your salad. He does have his pride.
They call him Tossed Salad
It gives him Soto do in between manning his men’s room glory hole and getting blackout drunk.
Sorta like Biden’s unconstitutional eviction moratorium, or his unconstitutional vaccine mandate, or his unconditional student loan forgiveness, or his unconstitutional shutting down of churches, or his unconstitutional open borders.
Why should the guy who was impeached for telling people to be nice be the last person to confuse incitement with free speech?
He's just applying the precedent the Democrats themselves set. Reason even supports this precedent.
Sauce for the goose, Soave.
Will you guys ever tire of saying it's ok because Democrats did it first?
You're the only one who says it.
Your whataboutism fell apart yesterday.
https://reason.com/2025/08/24/fragneto-monforte-italy/?comments=true#comment-11175574
Sarc:
So YOU can bring up the past for comparison, but when someone else does to rebut your version of history, that's whataboutism:
And then YOU bring up that same past again:
Pour sarc.
You're turning into Jesse. Hope you're proud of yourself.
Oh, I C. "What about Jesse?"
Well groomed and looks like a cop?
Sarc’s fantasy. And in that fantasy, the handsome,e cop makes extensive use of his ‘nightstick’, while Sarc screams “oh yes Jesse, oh yes!!!!”.
You’re so in love with Jesse.
"Why should the guy who was impeached for telling people to be nice be the last person to confuse incitement with free speech?"
I am pretty well versed in MAGA bullshit, but this one is new to me.
Lol.
That's because, Tony, you have no clue about anything whatsoever and simply go with anything regurgitated to you.
I think that ties into Tony’s ‘snowballing’ activities down at the bathhouse.
You are pretty well versed in posting stupid shit.
You haven't been shown to be "well versed" in anything other than lying and TDS, Dr. Retard Asswipe.
You are the type of guy who will support literal tyranny if it means "pwning the libs".
Well, yeah. As long as you support team tyranny they will leave you alone. Right? Won't they?
Both of you support tyranny under the D label.
Consequences suck. Only thing worse than making Dems suffer for the rules they set up is to not have them suffer those consequences.
FAFO and all.
Making Dems live by their rules is ungentlemanly.
And you're the type of guy who defends literal tyranny with absurd analogies like "what if they have bears in their trunk?".
I have zero problem punishing you treasonous pinkos for what you have done.
It's just dumb. I believe he was doing it in the context of pride flags being treated like sacred magical talismans that lose their power when people destroy them, but if that's the case, just tell the governors to pardon anyone that gets convicted of desecrating the Most Holy Queer Color Palette. You don't need to do an EO making it a crime to burn the US flag, especially when it's such an easy way to identify who actually likes the country or not.
One of those cases of Trump getting a little too high on his own supply.
^This^
It is already illegal to destroy nylon and polyester by fire due to pollution mandates. The environmentalists beat him to it.
I still can’t believe smoking was legal indoors…and smokers littered everywhere by throwing out burning cigarettes.
What about rainbow flags and crosswalks?
That is (D)ifferent and you know it. Rainbow cult crosswalk desecration is genocide.
Trump destroyed those crosswalks with zero consequence. The only (D)ifference is that it was speech that Trump did not like and thus it was ok for him to destroy it.
Trump destroyed those crosswalks
Is this what happened?
No, technically it was Trump proxy Ron DeSantis and the Florida Department of Transportation.
No, it was nothing of the sort, TDS-addled slimy pile of lying shit.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
TDS!!! TDS!!!!!!! You're repeating a Bush-era term because you're a sheep. Republicans changed one letter and you bleat it out uncritically. Fucking retard.
Faggotry pro monkeypox child grooming advertising has place in a public spaces. Crosswalks are one color that all easiest for visual access. There is no place for rainbow cult grooming crosswalks in a public space. You can paint one on your parking spot at the mobile home park where you rent.
Rainbow crosswalks are really easy to see.
They look like a crayon eating squirrel had a loose bowel on the road. Rorschat test if you will.
Public safety materials are standardized. Once the rainbow cult began trying to co-opt stuff like that it needs to be pulled back with extreme focus on safety.
You are free to paint your personal belongings in whatever flamebow color arrangements of your choosing.
Tony is too stupid to understand that.
Don’t worry Tony, Spokane still has that bullshit here.
Then why don’t you leave if you have such a big problem with it?
It's not illegal to burn a rainbow flag either. Provided that it's a flag that you own.
About the crosswalk: The owner of the crosswalk gets to decide what to do with it. Wouldn't you agree that the property owner should be able to decide how the property should be treated?
Do you think you ought to have the right to vandalize government property without the government's permission?
Does driving over it count as vandalism?
The kids deliberately did donuts on the crosswalk intentionally to vandalize it. They didn't merely drive over it.
What if they had merely ejaculated on it?
There we go, the Bertram Guilfoyle that I was expecting, whose purpose here is only to annoy the people he doesn't like. Back to ignore you go.
Just wants to make people mad and 'pwn' the people he dislikes.
Poor jeff, doesn't care for being subject to his own style guide.
Nah, it’s just that everyone here is sick of your lies, your sea lion if, your sophistry, your Marxism, your pedophilia, and the fact that you’re such a malignant, thread shitting shitweasel. And your lack of gratitude is disgusting.
You should be thanking us daily for tolerating your presence, and begging us for forgiveness.
What about walking across it while leaving muddy footprints?
I’m sure Jeffy would approve of sodomizing a child on top of it.
"The kids deliberately did donuts on the crosswalk intentionally to vandalize it. They didn't merely drive over it."
So, THAT speech is not allowed jeff?
Consistent.
The state owns those crosswalks. They should be permitted to silence speech they dislike?
And why should publicly-owned roads have controversial political ideals pasted on them?
So, THAT speech is not allowed jeff?
It's vandalism. Agree or disagree?
Not any more than doing donuts and leaving skid marks on any other road would be.
Which, based on my Google-fu, the donuts might be considered a moving violation but the skid marks themselves aren’t typically considered vandalism.
That is the point, asshole. If desecration of a symbol is illegal, then some of us rank the US flag above some rainbow pavement.
Desecration of a symbol that you do not own is illegal because you don't own it, regardless of the symbol.
Get it now?
But perhaps more to your point. Setting aside the legality of ownership of said symbol, why should desecration or reverence of all symbols be considered equally valid or equally invalid?
I will ask you the same question I asked Rick James: from a cultural point of view, should burning an American flag, burning a Pride flag, and burning a Nazi flag, all be considered as equivalently bad (or good) actions? Should they all be tolerated equally in the cultural sphere?
Do you agree that the owner of the crosswalk should have the legal authority to decide what happens with it?
Isn't that what happened? The government allowed it to be painted, and then changed their mind?
Those decisions only work one way in democratland.
The owner of the crosswalk is the government and they don’t get to police speech is the whole fucking point!
The owner of the crosswalk is, by definition, the state since public roadways are public property. And the state most definitely is constrained by the First Amendment. So unlike most property owners, no, they don't get to unconditional discretion to decide what to do with it.
Nor, by the way, do I have the right to vandalize government property but it's an interesting legal question in this circumstance whether the "vandalism" was the painting of the rainbow flag in the crosswalk or the removal of it. It's especially interesting when the painting (or removal) is sanctioned by a municipality but disfavored by their parent entity, the state.
No, not unconditional discretion, but they do get to decide whether or not the sidewalk gets decorated, and if so, what that looks like. Yes the state is constrained by the First Amendment. Are you now claiming that vandalism is an First Amendment-protected expressive act?
Great, you admit you’re wrong. Now you can fuck fuck off, amd stop with that bit of irrelevant obfuscation you’re attempting. Because you lat the argument.
This is what you always do when you’re cornered like a retarded animal.
Did you know that crosswalks exist in private parking lots? It's true!
Is that true of the one in question here?
There have been instances where a Pride Flag was burned for LGBTQ activists call to prosecute it as a hate crime, not a property crime. I do not recall if any of those went anywhere.
Oh gee, the activists wanted the crime to be punished more severely than it deserved. What a surprise!
You know, if you are opposed to the activists, the correct answer is not just to blindly take the 180 degree opposite position and defend illegal behavior that makes the activists mad.
I said they wanted the speech aspect prosecuted, i.e. "hate crime", not the destruction of property aspect.
The people no doubt supporting the draconian pro rainbow cult child molestation crosswalk include the homo chemistry teacher and his husband who recently crowdfunded to adopt a baby boy:
https://www.ibtimes.sg/who-brandon-keith-mitchell-convicted-sex-offenders-viral-gay-surrogacy-video-sparks-concerns-80957
Then why don't you argue with the activists about it?
Even if they wanted to prosecute the crime based on speech, it doesn't mean that it wasn't a crime of vandalism.
Right now there are MAGA activists who are cheering the idea that the speech part of flag burning should be punished more than any vandalism. What do you have to say to them?
I seem to be arguing with an activist.
So all those people who vandalized statues five years ago should have been prosecuted?
Funny how the radical individualist left this out of all his whataboutism up and down the thread...
Oh but wait, I think I know what you mean.
You are operating in the realm of culture. You think it ought to be culturally acceptable to trash America via American flag-burning, AND culturally acceptable to trash the gays via rainbow flag-burning. Right? That in order to have a "level cultural playing field", all cultural viewpoints should be considered equally valid. Is that closer to what you are getting at?
So... in your estimation, it would be a simple act of vandalism and NOT a hate crime. Interesting...
I don't agree with the hate crime part, I don't agree with so-called "hate crimes" in general, but it is still vandalism nonetheless.
Am I right above? Do you think that both burning an American flag and burning a Pride flag ought to be considered equally acceptable culturally?
Of course I do, but we've kind of found ourselves yet another agree-to-disagree situation... let's agree to disagree that flag burning should be illegal... in the meantime we'll keep threatening long prison sentences for burning and leaving skidmarks on rainbow flags and rainbow flags only.
Why do you think burning either flag should be considered equally acceptable culturally?
While we're at it, should it be considered equally acceptable culturally to burn an American flag, and to burn a Nazi flag? How about a Confederate flag? How about a Soviet Union flag?
One is the flag of our country. The others are not. I know you place no value on citizenship, this country or our constitutional republic, but Americans do.
How often should the government piss down your values and cause you serious misery before burning the flag looks like a no-brainer?
In other words, how uniform must bra design become before braziers have outlived their usefulness?
in the meantime we'll keep threatening long prison sentences for burning and leaving skidmarks on rainbow flags and rainbow flags only.
Do you understand that what those kids did was an act of vandalism? That if the crosswalk had been decorated in the style of an American flag and those kids vandalized it, that it would have also been a crime?
Skid marks on a road do not equal vandalism.
Fuck off Bertram. You're nothing but a pest. Shoo.
You should probably review what actually happened in the case of this crosswalk.
One day I told him that I didn't give a shit about anything he had to say, and he started arguing with me about it. So I put him on mute and haven't read a single one of his comments since.
Remember when you got confused by people changing their handles, and started replying to your mute list?
I can assure you they still aren't worth reading today.
You don’t put anyone on mute, pussy. You’ve been caught so many times.
"I don't agree with the hate crime part, I don't agree with so-called "hate crimes" in general, but it is still vandalism nonetheless.
Am I right above? Do you think that both burning an American flag and burning a Pride flag ought to be considered equally acceptable culturally?"
Can you explain why they wished to punish more drastically than they would for vandalism (which those cities tend to ignore)?
Should've written an EO making it a federal crime to burn police stations, churches, ICE detention centers, federal courthouses, university halls, and snuck flags in.
Then let Reason pen their 1A opposition piece to burning flags, police stations, churches, ICE detention centers, federal courthouses, and university halls.
Leftist violence is speech to the writers here so not seeing them have a problem with firebombing police stations or cars.
Leftist violence is speech
Brevity soul wit. They don't care about speech, they care about legally sanctioning their preferred forms of violence and property destruction while arresting and jailing people for performative non-violence and non-destructive defacement of their own alters, sacred cows, and shibboleths.
That's always my immediate question.
A fantastic point.
If burning the trans flag, just as an example, amounts to hate speech than surely burning the American flag is also hate speech.
Of course, my position is both of those things are protected by the first amendment but since people are literally in jail for burning protected groups flags (or messing up their crosswalks) it does beg the question of where exactly the line on 'hate speech' is, let alone trying to define what hate speech is.
The fact is, trans people are Americans and by burning the American flag one assumes they are also impugning so-called marginalized groups as well...right?
Trump may be playing a long game here. Knowing SCOTUS will overturn his order, the decision can be used to turn the tables on the left with all their unconstitutional speech restrictions.
That shit is still going on. Spokane has a commie mayor and 5/7 pinko city councilmen.
Then why don’t you move if you hate it so much?
Why? Odds are I’ll get my wish and all the democrat controlled areas will rightfully be placed under martial law fairly soon. That includes the Marxist dystopia where you subsist.
Best you just learn to obey.
I’m not aware of any “marxist dystopias” in the US. You must be mistaken.
Thought fag burning was already illegal.
Nope. What would give you that idea?
You support burning fags?
Tony cannot read. He is waiting for MSNBC to tell him what to think.
His Chat LGBT broke again.
The Brits do it all the time. Nasty habit.
We talking sticks, gay people, or freaky alien genotypes?
You’re a fag, and you should be burned at the stake for being a pinko traitor. So I guess it is ok to burn some fags.
Now that’s just downright mean! You seem to have an anger problem that you blame on people who disagree with you politically.
We're working on that. Just a few million more imports and we'll get there.
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
15 years for burning a rainbow flag.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50861259
Indicted for burning an Israeli flag
https://abcnews.go.com/US/columbia-university-protests-
indictment-burning-israeli-flag/story?id=113518343
Man charged with hate crime after burning, spreading feces on Pride flag
https://mynorthwest.com/crime_blotter/hate-crime-pride-flag/4072814
Teenagers arrested for leaving skidmarks on pride street crossing
https://reason.com/2024/06/12/it-is-illiberal-to-charge-teens-with-felonies-for-vandalizing-a-pride-crosswalk/
I like your thoughts, but you forget that the people you mention where burning flags that did not belong to them. Free speech does not allow you to destroy the property of others. You need to show examples of people arrested for burning their OWN rainbow/pride flags.
It is illegal to burn fags unless at home or in designated areas due to to modern anti-tobacco laws.
Does the E.O. only apply to D.C.'s public areas?
I'm betting not since it doesn't appear to be about burning in general.
I fear my attempt at humor went by you.
("Fag" being Britspeak for "cigarette").
No. It's a good one. I laughed.
And today it's "modern anti-flag burning laws."
While signing the ban, Trump noted that the Supreme Court decisions on this issue were both 5–4. It's certainly possible that a future Court could rule a different way, and the composition of the Court has drifted further to the right since the early 1990s; on the other hand, there's little evidence that the current justices embrace a more limited view of the First Amendment.
Trump is doing what Mississippi did regarding abortion. That State knew it was defying Roe and Casey when it enacted its 15-week cutoff for abortion, but gambled a more conservative Court would at least partially overrule those decision. The result was Dobbs, which completely overruled Roe and Casey.
Trump is defying Johnson and Eichman, making the same type of gamble with the same Court. Will he achieve a Dobbs-like decision? I hope not, but I'm not certain.
I honestly doubt they'll reverse themselves on this one, he's going to get slapped down on this particular EO for sure.
+10000000000. Sure do hope so.
Well OF COURSE Trump does this. Once it became evident that Trump was going to pen-and-phone his way through his entire presidency, it was only a matter of time until he was going to revisit all of the cultural issues that Team Red lost over the years.
Next up, Trump mandates that every public school is required to have a "moment of silence" at the beginning of every schoolday. But it's not prayer, no, totally not prayer! Right?
He really is trying to take America back to the 1950's. Back then, I suppose, if a person were to burn an American flag, that person's neighbors would beat him to within an inch of his life as punishment for his 'treason'. Now, Trump wants the state to fulfill that role instead.
if a person were to burn an American flag, that person's neighbors would beat him
Cite?
Back then, I suppose,
I appreciate your acknowledgment that you made shit up.
Although Pedo Jeffy should definitely be beaten.
Next up, Trump mandates that every public school is required to have a "moment of silence" at the beginning of every schoolday. But it's not prayer, no, totally not prayer! Right?
No need for Trump to do anything. That's already happening at the State level in response to the Kennedy decision. Also, moments of silence in public schools were upheld in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985). What that decision struck down was adding "or voluntary prayer" on the ground that the State was encouraging students to pray. Of course, Wallace v. Jaffree was based on the now repudiated Lemon Test, so there's no way to know how today's Court would rule on the issue.
I'm talking about Trump mandating it at the federal level.
I'm talking about Trump not getting involved because the States will get the issue before SCOTUS, which already allows moments of silence and is likely to allow some school-led religious expression in public schools. Besides, how would he enforce such a mandate in Blue States?
Oh I think he'll get involved. Because it will flatter his ego. And he's an authoritarian at heart.
Poor Jeff.
But it's not prayer, no, totally not prayer! Right?
I went thru all of high school with these daily moments of silence, and never once was part of a prayer.
If only the comments had a moment of silence from gish galloping, bad analogies, and chaff & redirect.
If you ban flag burning you open up the whole can of worms known as hate speech.
Leftist have already tried that can open by prosecuting people over flags, just their flags.
Unfortunately, Trump's executive order clearly seeks to erode this clear distinction between expressive acts that could inspire lawlessness and expressive acts that directly call for lawlessness.
False. The media's repeated actions on all fronts for the last 6 yrs., if not longer, have done far more to erode free speech than anything else. Bar none.
To wit here; if we were talking about burning a flag as part of a theater-in-the-park presentation or a flashpaper flag going up in smoke as part of a magic act, you might have a case. But, regardless of the law, nobody except you retards is unclear that burning a flag is exceptional, but shouldn't be, to lighting dumpsters or cars or a pile of books or virtually anything else on fire in public.
This is the inevitable consequence of "Mostly peaceful protest". If you asshats were the least bit objective in condemning people lighting shit on fire, the people wouldn't feel the need to rely on cops or the government. Instead, you openly display that you don't have the least bit of scruples and whine when others act like they do. Even going so far as to demonize the people putting out dumpster fires and even more ignorantly and authoritatively declaring, "They shouldn't have been there."
Even the most staunch 2A members wouldn't be as retardedly irresponsible as to say "Celebratory gunfire is a 1A protected free speech issue!", but not you motherfuckers.
Once again, this is Robby "Superficially credible accusations" Soave who defended the two guys dressed in cheerleading skirts and dancing with the female cheerleaders by saying "It's not like they're trying to be women."
It's not honesty, or truth, or accuracy, or even relatable, good faith, human communication; just straight up lies and admonishments for believing your lying eyes.
This is just... incoherent. But it is impressive to see what lengths, what twists of logic, what distortions of the English language, MAGA will go to to defend their one and only POTUS. God speed sir.
This is just... incoherent.
I've posted 3rd grade math equations that you found incoherent. If anything, your refutations are validating of my assertion.
Your going around shouting "Baghdad Bob was right!", "I'm Abraham Lincoln!", "It's a mostly peaceful protest!" does nothing to support the Constitution and/or Free Speech and does undermine the reciprocity, good will, and self-evident nature that support it.
Even small children, even if they can be tricked, still develop an innate sense of who's telling them the truth, who's being sarcastic, whose bullshitting them, and who's just an insane dumbass. Your assertions of "It's just free speech!" while arresting people for burning Pride flags or Israeli flags or even quasi-random shit like rainbow crosswalks and BLM street murals doesn't stand to any sort of reason, self-evident or other. It only displays your dishonesty and duplicity.
No, you’re just too stupid to understand. Which is a consistent theme with you. Probably also why you’re a democrat.
Precedents as old as those from 1989 aren't of much importance to the current majority on the Supreme Court. Why wouldn't they dispense with it and let Trump deport flag burners to Uganda?
Unless this EO is all just for show. Would the Trump DOJ even charge a flag burner who tries to test it? Would the Trump DOJ even try to force any litigation over this to the Supreme Court?
He probably assumes an organization like the ACLU will challenge the EO, ultimately leading to the Supreme Court.
Trump's an idiot, not even capable of 1D checkers. Here's how he should have done this, constitutionally:
1. Slap a 500% tariff on American flags.
2. Get a 10% golden share veto in all domestic flag manufacturers, just like US Steel.
3. Call American flags property of the federal government.
4. Don't sell them. Lease them, and retain federal ownership.
5. Destruction of federal property!
American flags are tarrifable? Where are most made? Or, are the component textiles mostly imported?
I know that Trump bibles and gear are mostly foreign made, but that can't be the case for old glory, can it?
First, no actual current idea, because the tariff step intends to block all foreign-made flags. Like whistling to keep the invisible pink elephants from trespassing.
Second, I do remember kerfuffles years ago about American flags made in China. I'm sure it's still possible.
It's probably true that at least some cheap janky walmart flags are made in china, but the flags raised at federal buildings, and the 20x30 flag at mar-a-logo must be custom made domestically, no?
According to AI most American flags are made in the US. 6% are imported from China and many of those deceptively have a made in the USA stamp on them.
Future Secretary of State ideas here!
Well, at least follow proper protocol and respect.
First soak the flag in gasoline, then wrap it firmly all around you.
THEN you can set it on fire.
Trump wouldn't go for that - it'd mess up his hair.
the flag burning nonsense is all for show in both directions.
Exactly. And that's what makes it expressive and protected by the First Amendment.
The dumpster burning nonsense is all for show in both directions.
The ICE detention center firebombings are all for show in both directions.
The church burning nonsense is all for show in both directions.
If Conservatives and even just people aware of history would just stop their kabuki theater of pantomimed structured opposition and just give leftists everything they wanted, the leftists wouldn't have to set fire to federal buildings, tear all the statues down, and chase all the Confederate flags away from everywhere (including "Here's our Overall Pick for Black Panther Flag" Amazon).
"The Constitution protects burning an American flag." my ass. These asshats don't give a damn about free speech and it's *still* kind of incredulous after 2020 to presume they do. All the people waiting to tell the COVID Gestapo which Jews were hiding, unvaxxed, in which school attic? They didn't go anywhere.
You want to find me someone who was burning a flag as part of play or a Civil War reenactment or quietly on their own property or under an overpass or whatever and was convicted of burning a flag? I've retired dozens of flags around campfires myself. I'll defend to the death the right to burn it as part of some peaceable assembly, or innocent act on private property or out of the public eye, but quit trying to tell me that the pitchfork and torch-wielding mob burning people in effigy is just mostly peacefully exercising their right to free speech because one of the torches happens to be attached to a pole or have an American flag on it somewhere.
People, children, have been tried and convicted for memes on the internet and coke cans arranged in the vague shape of assault weapons. You want civility back? Start by admitting that the people reacting to chanting mobs lighting stuff on fire aren't automatically the oppressors.
both directions implies no side is the oppressors.
From what I've seen of the actual text of this EO it is completely and intentionally toothless. Mostly requires federal cops to advise state LEOs of potential violations of open burning laws etc. I voted for Trump twice and I think on balance he's the most libertarian president in my lifetime. But this strikes me as a pointless waste of political capital. Unlikely to ever end up at the Supreme Court because despite the claim it doesn't actually make flag burning a crime. It only asks state officials to consider it in the context of some other statutory violation. But as usual Trump has media heads spinning while he does more important shit that they haven't noticed.
""It only asks state officials to consider it in the context of some other statutory violation. ""
Huh, where did Trump learn that trick?
Pointless wastes of political capital are kind of his thing. Along with watching Newsmax at 3am and finding new ways to court the walk-in tub vote.
I've never been as enthusiastic about T-dizzle as you seem to be, but he is a necessary pill for a failing republic and frequently enacts very good policy. But this recent run of taking cuts of companies and speech bans is as far from my comfort zone as it gets. This is some President AOC shit wrapped in a different flag. I'll pass.
a necessary pill for a failing republic
So, I think it finally dawned on me why you all like Trump so much.
It's because you've completely given up on the whole idea of democracy and representative government, at least in its idealized form, and probably in its more realistic form either.
I mean, someone who might still give a damn about the republic might say "maybe Trump shouldn't go after fellow citizens in blue states just because they didn't vote for him". But if you don't really give a shit about voting, then Trump using his power to clamp down on 'illegitimate dissent' is great, because it destroys leftist ideas! Government as a tool to represent the people is dead; government as a tool to enact ideology against the will of the people, that's the new hotness. Is that the basic idea?
Bzzzttt!!!!!! WRONG DUMBASS!!!!
We like Trump because he’s pushed back on democrat hegemony and the deep state. And he’s actually fixing things.
No, you missed it again. People support Trump because of how abhorrently horrible the DNC, democrats and the media supporting them has become.
We are tired of being lied to. We can see the truth and yet are told not to believe our eyes.
We prefer to read a couple means tweets that make us chuckle versus listening to how we are deplorable, racist, uneducated, white supremacist, white nationalist, Nazi, etc.
And the policies and spending bad habits of the left is unsustainable and harmful.
If the DNC was Joe Manchin then perhaps they have a chance with Fetterman too. But AOC, Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, Nadler, the hate squad, Bernie, Buttigieg, Warren, Waters, Raskin, have all taken America down and that can't be denied.
Try and name one thing the above leftists have done that benefitted the American people. Not just a small corner of the population. Not just the inner circle of leftists elites. What have they done that has benefitted the American people?
So a toothless EO (so no real chance of harm) that has lefties foaming at the mouth with their hatred of America is a waste? Sure there are more important things to tackle but reminding people that Democrats hate them isn't completely a waste.
The people who really hate America are the ones who would surrender the truly American ideal of freedom of speech, in favor of a piece of cloth.
You all are turning "loving America" into nothing more than virtue-signaling with superficial displays. Apparently "loving America" means nothing more than waving flags. What about actually believing in genuinely American ideals? Aren't you all the ones who demand that immigrants who come here should adopt "American values"? So now we now know what you really mean by that - they just need to wave the right flag! Right?
Pedo Jeffy, you hate America, but you do love government.
Another stupid and wasteful EO. Go ahead and outlaw burning the American flag and protesters will just burn something else, like a Confederate flag. Will he keep signing new EOs everytime he doesn't like what protesters burn or destroy?
Arson is a crime. Inciting a riot is a crime. Context is everything. You defined hate crimes for one side but scoff when you are called out for them?
Why is burning the rainbow flag, in full view of a bunch of deviant sex cult creepers, a hate crime? For that matter, how about if I burn a "palestine" flag? Or better yet, take a huge steaming dump all over a somali flag right in the heart of Minneapolis?
Why is doing donuts over the LGBT Pedo's faggoty painted sidewalks a hate crime?
Why is the One Flag Policy so objectionable to all the LGBT Pedos?
I thought it was "protected speech" to spit and piss on and burn the flags of those with whom we disagree. Or, is that only with the flag every American should care about the most?
If the state-level bans are unconstitutional, and the ban implemented by Congress is unconstitutional, then you can pretty safely bet that the executive order version is even more obviously unconstitutional.
I'm sure the Supreme Court will rule that no federal judge in a particular circuit court can rule on the constitutionality of said order
I'm sure those who post here can rule that JFucked is a TDS-addled lying pile of antisemitic shit.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
The quoting of cases from the 90s is pretty hollow considering that Virginia v. Black establishes in 2003 that as long as intent and/or true threat could be established, burning a cross was not protected free speech.
The Black case is exceptionally notable because it was a cross constructed by the Klansmen and set on fire private property with the owner's consent.
The extrapolation of "Burning a flag is free protected speech." to "Burning a flag can never be interpreted as a violent act or threat" (especially given the contextual juxtaposition of a 'white, nationalist theocracy' arresting cross-burners) is self-evident retardation.
If even the toy version of the General Lee can't have the Stars and Bars on the roof, your assertions bout free speech don't mean dick and you can risk eating a legally-sanctioned bullet for burning the flag. The whole "toy makers are private companies, we're talking about the federal government" distinction doesn't mean shit. People beating Jews in the street and setting fires while the government turns their back or even capitalizes on it is objectively worse than the same fascist authoritarianism that bans burning flags.
Gregory Lee Johnson burned an American flag outside of the convention center where the 1984 Republican National Convention was being held in Dallas, Texas. Johnson burned the flag to protest the policies of President Ronald Reagan. He was arrested and charged with violating a Texas statute that prevented the desecration of a venerated object, including the American flag, if such action were likely to incite anger in others. A Texas court tried and convicted Johnson. He appealed, arguing that his actions were "symbolic speech" protected by the First Amendment.
That's the summary of Texas v. Johnson (1989), and United States v. Eichman (1990) followed the same reasoning.
Neither of those cases involved someone burning a flag with intent to intimidate or threaten others. The cross burning case is distinguished from the flag-burning cases because of that one fact. Texas v. Johnson ruled that outlawing flag burning because it might anger someone is unconstitutional, even if the person angered might decide to react violently. They basically concluded that burning a flag is not inherently equivalent to "fighting words" that would be likely provoke an immediate desire in an onlooker to start physically attacking the person burning the flag, that the 'patriot' couldn't be expected to control.
This is a different question than whether someone burning a cross can be punished if the intent is to intimidate black people in that neighborhood. Given the historical fact that burning crosses were used by the KKK and other racists in exactly that manner, proving the intent to intimidate isn't any kind of stretch.
What is about D.C. that eventually turns everyone there into a power-mad psychopath?
Trump should know better than to pull this BS.
He’s had a hard-on for this since at least his first term. I bet you can go back to a random interview in the 80’s/90’s where he says it should be illegal.
(Not that I agree with him, mind you.)
Yep.
A-1 President Trump. You lose.
Oops. Just read above; quite possibly Soave is lying.
Funneling taxpayer funds to democrats and their trial lawyer supporters...brilliant strategy.
If you're burning a flag that you own (not one that you stole from someone else), in a safe, non-arsony (not using the burning flag as kindling to try to burn down an ICE facility or something) and non-assaulty manner (don't jab at me with a burning flag on a stick)...then yeah, Trump is wrong on this. You should be able to burn a flag as political protest...but did you get the permit from the city and meet all the air-quality environmental regulations before you did it though?
OTOH, it would be simply TERRIBLE if someone passing by takes offense and matters into their own hands.
OTOH, it would be simply TERRIBLE if someone passing by takes offense and matters into their own hands.
OTOH, it would be simply TERRIBLE if someone passing by that guy with the "God hates fags" sign took offense and took matters into his own hands. Or someone passing by the guy with the HARRIS/WALZ bumper sticker, or someone passing by the woman with the "My body, my choice" t-shirt, or someone passing by the woman wearing a cross pendant...
Turning the sarcasm off for a moment. Yes, it would be terrible if any of these things happen.
"You don't have a right to not be offended!"
Also,
"I am offended that you burned our flag, traitor! To jail with you!"
Just wondering.
If someone used a CO2 fire extinguisher to put out a burning flag, and accidently sprayed the perp, depriving him of O2, would it be assault?
(my suspicion is it would depend on if the city is blue or red)
Just read the actual order. Should have known Robby was lying...
There's no ban on flag burning.
" To the maximum extent permitted by the Constitution, the Attorney General shall vigorously prosecute those who violate our laws in ways that involve desecrating the American Flag, and may pursue litigation to clarify the scope of the First Amendment exceptions in this area."
That statement is contradictory. They aren't banning burning the flag, but if someone burns a flag, the AG is supposed to find some other excuse to prosecute them...
When they make it clear that the prosecution of whatever other law they find being violated is pretextual, how is that going to play out in court arguments?
There are two major problems with the executive order. The first is that it is blatantly unconstitutional, as the article nicely describes. The second is that the president cannot ban behavior himself. An executive order is suppose to be a decree telling government employees how to go about doing their jobs. The president cannot put restrictions on citizen behavior. This executive order is effectively the president passing a law without any involvement from congress.
An executive order is suppose to be a decree telling government employees how to go about doing their jobs.
That's correct, but the order seems to be directing federal prosecutors to go after flag burners, so that is something the President could theoretically do, I guess.
The goal is clearly to affect the behavior of ordinary citizens (and it certainly chills any non-citizen from doing that, since they are working to deport non-citizens here legally for far less blatant anti-American speech than burning a flag). In that respect, it is clearly wrong on many levels for a President to make this kind of order.
Even more generally, we have seen Trump 47 use executive orders even more than Trump 45 did. Basically, he is trying to rule by decree. And his fans are cheering him on...
Please explain how burning the American flag is protected free speech while burning a gay pride flag is a hate crime? Either both are criminal or neither is.
^Exactly^ rules for me are rules for thee.
I believe this EO is to correct the "hate" crimes associated to pride, LGBTQ.
This point will remove the leftists "authorized" attacks of free speech and remove the "hate" crime laws in place.
Trump's round about way of affecting change will causing a diversion that confounds the left and gets some people's panties in a bind which he seems to like to see them squirm a little.
Robby Soave seems very confused. He listened to what Trump said instead of reading the executive order. Trump's speech was very different from the order. If you read the order, you can see that Flag burning was NOT prohibited. Basically nothing in the current law changed. If you think the executive order changed current law, please state how you think it tries to change current law.
I think it is meant to point out the leftist "hate" crimes associated with the pride flag etc and for these to be reviewed and removed which is a win for 1A.
And to ensure anyone who is inciting others through the action of burning the flag can be charged accordingly should this occur.
"Trump's Executive Order Prohibiting Flag Burning Is Unconstitutional."
I agree.
But burning any flag with a hammer and sickle on it will result you being ostracized by the lunatic left.
How 'bout burning a Koran?
Maybe there is something else that Trump is drawing out into the open. That man beaten by the Cincinnati mob? He has been charged with a crime because he allegedly called one of his tormenters a name. The Minnesota woman who was doxxed and threatened online after she called a child a vulgar name? She's been charged with a misdemeanor that carries the possible sentence of $1,000 and jail time. Teens and others have been charged with destroying rainbow painted crosswalks.
Perhaps Trump is creating a conversation where people can discuss the hypocrisy in how we practice and support the 1st amendment.
I think all of that is great, but ngl... I think that's giving him far too much credit.
The only people who care about "creating a conversation" are left-wing dingbats trying to lure otherwise intelligent people down a path of rationalized idiocy.
Like a child at camp, Donald has discovered you can burn the flag by putting a match in front of your ass when you fart, that's why he wants to make it a Presidential Privilege. Someone should explain to him that destroying Democracy is burning the American Flag 6,000,000 times over. Indeed, Scalia himself pointed that siding with Freedom of Speech in a case of Burning the Flag was his toughest decision in a personal way, and explained that it's the Justices' work to take decisions that sometimes goes against one own instinct to the point of nausea.
The best way to retort to Donald is probably to Flambée a Banana... when was the last time Banana Flambée was a delicacy in the country?
Burning the flag should get the death penalty, in consideration for chain reactions that may include igniting gas or setting fire to forest or to California and resulting in casualties to children, to adults, or to illegal immigrants.