How the Elite Changed Its Mind on Christianity
Bush-era New Atheism couldn't last forever.

Depending on who you ask, America's young people are experiencing a religious revival. Gen Zers are now more likely to attend church weekly than millennials, with young men in particular leading the return to religious services. While Gen Zers are still more likely to identify as religiously unaffiliated than previous groups, there's evidence that certain kinds of religious devotion are also growing in popularity—earlier this year, Roman Catholic dioceses around the Western world reported spikes in adult conversions.
As the decline in religious attendance has slowed, the past few years have also seen a clear rise in the status of religion. It's becoming more and more socially acceptable to be religious in elite intellectual spaces—something that could have a real impact on how religion is perceived by everyone else.
This is a big change from the past few decades, in which internet "New Atheism" effectively framed religion, Christianity in particular, as fundamentally anti-intellectual and subtly low-class. Christians were cast as uneducated rednecks—creationists, climate-change deniers, and pearl-clutching censors. This framing of the religious was obviously influenced by the backlash to George W. Bush-era conservatism. Movies like Jesus Camp and shows like 19 Kids and Counting, which portrayed evangelical "fundies" at their most mockable, only reinforced the impression that religion is a small-minded, bigoted, and jingoistic endeavor.
These New Atheists seized on the cringeworthy, distinctly lower-middle-class aesthetics of Bush-era Christianity. The aesthetics of many non-denominational Evangelical churches—unadorned auditoriums, cheesy worship music, and the occasional smoke machine or pledge to the Christian flag—fit within a broader cultural language of suburban kitsch.
These evangelical churches are essentially the Stanley cups of American religion: consumerist yet distinctly cheap-feeling, appealing to a certain kind of middle-class, middle-aged woman, and a constant subject of mockery for those who see themselves as better and smarter than people like her. New Atheists loved nothing more than mocking and memeifying this kind of Christianity, a sentiment that rubbed off on the intelligentsia writ large.
But that didn't last forever. While evangelicalism is still the most popular protestant denomination, it's no longer the only culturally salient version of Christianity to be found. Much of this is due to how the Republican Party became less entwined with this vision of religion.
When Obergefell v. Hodges took marriage equality national, conservatives no longer had a culture-war issue whose arguments were almost entirely religious in nature. Then Donald Trump—hardly anyone's idea of a religious social conservative—swallowed the Republican party whole, effectively squelching religious grandstanding about the sanctity of marriage. Abortion remained a salient issue during this time, but Trump's ambivalence made it undeniably less attractive as a hobby horse (especially given that many anti-abortion arguments can be made from a secular viewpoint). Either way, with Roe's overturn in 2022, Republicans again had a key religion-inflected cultural issue fall out of focus. In fact, the backlash to state-level abortion bans was so swift that many Republicans attempted to backpedal on the issue. In 2024, the Republican Party went so far as to ditch a call for a federal abortion ban from its platform.
Of course, there are still vestiges of 2000s theocracy-inflected religious conservatism on the right—just look at the handful of states that passed laws or mandates forcing classrooms to display the Ten Commandments or stock Bibles—but they're undeniably more of a fringe element than they used to be. Instead, the Republican Party has adopted a distinctly areligious, distinctly mean posturing that's influenced more by Andrew Tate than Billy Graham. As a result, religious observance has less of a right-wing association. Being religious no longer means being Republican. And being Republican no longer means being religious in the Bible-thumping, "God Warrior" mode.
Gone, for now at least, are the days when religion exists in pop culture purely as an anti-intellectual, lower-class phenomenon. In fact, many in the intellectual class are mourning the recent decline in religious observance, and even self-described atheists are extolling the social value of religious community.
"I wonder if, in forgoing organized religion, an isolated country has discarded an old and proven source of ritual at a time when we most need it," Atlantic writer Derek Thompson, an agnostic, wrote last year. "It took decades for Americans to lose religion. It might take decades to understand the entirety of what we lost."
Even Richard Dawkins has softened his criticism of Christianity. "I call myself a cultural Christian," Dawkins said during an interview last year. "It's true that statistically, the number of people who actually believe in Christianity is going down, and I'm happy with that. But I would not be happy if, for example, if we lost all our cathedrals and our beautiful parish churches…If I had to choose between Christianity and Islam, I'd choose Christianity every time."
If you want an idea of how much things have changed in the cultural arena, take Wes Anderson's latest film, The Phonecian Scheme. The movie follows Zsa-zsa Korda, an ultra-wealthy unscrupulous businessman who, upon realizing that the continual assassination attempts against him will work sooner or later, contacts his estranged daughter, Leisl, a novice nun. Zsa-zsa takes her on a trip across the Middle East in an attempt to swindle last-minute financial support from the investors of an ambitious infrastructure project. All the while, Zsa-zsa is plagued by dreams of his final judgement—God, of course, is played by Bill Murray in robed, white-bearded glory.
In the world of the film, not only does God exist, but it is a very literal biblical God who rules the universe. If there's any ambiguity about whether the characters ought to take this God seriously, at the end of the movie, Zsa-zsa gets baptized and becomes a Catholic. When a skeptical Liesl warns him that the baptism "doesn't work if you're lying," he replies, "I'm not lying. I'm capable of and willing to genuinely believe in the opposite of my personal convictions."
I can't remember the last time I saw a film made by an ostensibly secular filmmaker for a distinctly elite and educated audience that treats religion so credulously. Plenty of films are about religion—ahem, Conclave—or imply that some kind of mysterious, ineffable higher power exists, but few take place in a universe in which the Christian God is affirmed to be both real and good.
I won't speculate on Anderson's own beliefs—and I don't think any kind of religious conversion is necessary for Anderson to have made what is an obviously pro-Christian film. Instead, I think The Phoenician Scheme reflects a cultural moment in which religion is having a distinctly aesthetic upgrade—something a scrupulously visual filmmaker like Anderson would be likely to capitalize upon. Religion is, in short, becoming cool again among the cultural elite.
Much of this comes down to the way Catholicism, in particular, is becoming fashionable again, with many young adults citing an attraction to the aesthetics of "smells and bells" high church worship. "[I] always liked the aesthetic elements of Catholicism," one young convert told Free Press writer Madeleine Kearns, adding that she "loved the architecture and the stained glass" of many Catholic churches, "and how much detail and symbolism was there." Even as the "tradcath" resurgence remains a right-coded phenomenon, it is at the very least a fixation of the intellectual right. One can imagine Dasha Nekrasova from the Red Scare podcast becoming a traditionalist Catholic, but never a Pentecostal or Southern Baptist. It also helps that Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and other "high church" denominations have largely been left out of the discourse around "Christian nationalism."
Religion became cool again among the educated elite once it gained an association with good aesthetics, high art, and sacred music—not Bush-era Republican soft theocracy.
Today, one can belong to the ideas-making class—an aspiring public intellectual or artist—and still be religious, so long as one steers clear of evangelical kitsch. Whether or not a real religious revival is underway in American public life, one thing is clear: The cool kids aren't the smug, strident atheists anymore—they're the Christians.
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I am a Proud Fundamentalist... I think that fundamentally, we should look past ethnic groups, religious dogmas and rituals, languages, cultures, skin colors, and tribes and super-tribes (nations) of ALL sorts, and love our neighbors world-wide!
Sometimes I am also proud to be a primate, a mammal, an amniote, a vertebrate, or even (depending on my mood on a given day) outrageously PROUD to be an Earthly life-form!
I am a Proud Fundamentalist... I think that fundamentally, we should look past ethnic groups, religious dogmas and rituals, languages, cultures, skin colors, and tribes and super-tribes (nations) of ALL sorts, and love our neighbors world-wide!
An entirely Christian sentiment. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
That right there is the basis for modern secular liberal humanism.
Cool, Bro! We see eye to eye on that one!
What about religions and cultures that believe women are property and treat them like dogs?
Some religions and cultures are yea verily better for human thriving than others. See books by Sam Harris. I serious doubt, though, that military force will solve the problem. The endless cycle of violence, and all... Lots of Islam sucks, and Scientology sucks! "Heaven's Gate" and Jimmy Jones's "People's Temple" sucked... The latter 2 eliminated themselves, so we no longer have to suffer their presence. People who deny that some religions are better than others, aren't seeing the whole picture.
PS, also see Matt Ridley's "The Evolution of Everything". Survival of the fittest applies to cultures, too. I am saddened by the demise of "Heaven's Gate" and Jimmy Jones's "People's Temple"... I wish that they could have done better!
I grew up without religion. (parents not religious) And I see no path in my life to where I would ever become a true believer.
Well, sometimes that whole deal confuses me, truth be told...
About that them thar God v/s atheism v/s agnosticism thang…
I used to wonder a lot, but I had my agnostic friends convince me that God, if He does exist, does NOT want us to worship Him, because He does not believe in Himself (He needs self-esteem counseling, I was told. Else He’d make Himself FAR more visible). If God doesn't believe in Himself, then we obviously shouldn't, either. I was left to wonder, well then, WHO in the Hell is qualified to give self-esteem counseling to God Himself?!?! Never got an answer…
Then my devout atheist friends convinced me, that to get to Atheist Heaven, one had to NOT believe in God, and do that non-believing thing in JUST the EXACT right way… As for example, they'd say, "See, Madeline Murray O'Hair, SHE is the ONLY one who REALLY quite properly, understood EXACTLY how God does NOT believe in Himself, and only SHE in Her Divine (Anti-Divine?) Perfect Understanding, was fit to be "Ruptured" through the space-time vortex portal (rupture), straight to the Atheist Heaven that She deserved, and all the rest of us… Even the less-than-perfect atheists… Are "Left Behind" after the "Great Rupture" (rupture in the space-time continuum or some such thing, I guess). And since Madeline Murray's body was never found, I had to accept their argument. She was the PERFECT atheist, and only SHE, in Her Perfect Disbelief, had been Ruptured… Her and Her alone…
…BUT THEN THEY FOUND HER DEAD BODY!!! The arguments of my atheist friends were utterly crushed! I had just BARELY started to think that maybe they were correct! Now, I just dunno WHAT in blue blazes to think any more!!! What do y'all say, especially you atheists? PWEASE advise me, ah ams ignernt…
Interesting article about Christians. Quick question, isn't Andrew tate a Muslim? And the only Muslim England will procecuters for rape
It's ironic that Christians and conservatives are stereotyped as uneducated, unsophisticated, and anti-science. Because the best data we have shows that the opposite is more likely to be true.
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/01/30/trump-supporters-verbal-ability/
Everything on the left is projection and narratives.
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor’s tranny cosplay wife.
Thou shall covet Trump's Queen Spermy Daniels, and ASS-Spire to SHARE Her with Him, by Kissing The Ass of The Donald!
(Though shit may be doubtlessly hopeless, Thou Must Still ASS-Spire!)
What about his akita?
This is one commandment I'm not in danger of ever breaking.
"If I had to choose between Christianity and Islam, I'd choose Christianity every time."
When it comes, the choice will be between Islam and death.
I hope that islamist is prepared.
Christianity has always been anti-intellectual and low-class. It is a very simple religion, believe Jesus died for your sins and...that is mostly it. Christians have a bible, but don't have a culture of deep textual analysis that Jews, Muslims, and other religions have. Christianity survived just fine for over 1500 years with the lay being illiterate.
Lutheranism wants a word with you.
Yeah fuck the monks that snuck into Alexandria and other Roman cities/libraries while the ragheads were sacking the place, solely to rescue the books! Those morons.
Mind you when the ragheads were spacing Rome the leader when asked what to do with the books said "if they disagree with the Koran they are blasphemous so you burn them. If they agree with the Koran they are redundant, burn them"
Kill your anti western bigoted self
Cuntsorevaturds making friends, gathering votes, and influencing people by... PEDDLING KOOL-AID AND SUICIDE!!! How's it workin' for ya, servant, serpent, and slurp-pants (pants-slurper) of the Evil One?
EvilBahnFuhrer, drinking EvilBahnFuhrer Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light… It’s a VERY sad song! Kinda like this…
He’s a real Kool-Aid Man,
Sitting in his Kool-Aid Land,
Playing with his Kool-Aid Gland,
His Hero is Jimmy Jones,
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jim-Jones
Loves death and the dying moans,
Then he likes to munch their bones!
He’s truly, completely a necrophiliac,
His brain, squirming toad-like, is REALY, really whack!
Has no thoughts that help the people,
He wants to turn them all to sheeple!
On the sheeple, his Master would feast,
Master? A disaster! Just the nastiest Beast!
Kool-Aid man, please listen,
You don’t know, what you’re missin’,
Kool-Aid man, better thoughts are at hand,
The Beast, to LEAVE, you must COMMAND!
A helpful book is to be found here: M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer …
If EVERYONE who makes you look bad, by being smarter and better-looking than you, killed themselves, per your wishes, then there would be NO ONE left!
Who would feed you? Who’s tits would you suck at, to make a living? WHO would change your perpetually-smelly DIAPERS?!!?
You’d better come up with a better plan, Stan!
Amazing how quickly you went from "Proudly Fundamentalist... love everyone" to this drivel.
So the Loving Thing... is to judgmentally recommend suicide to the "politically wrong" people? Is that the hill that You PervFectly REALLY want to die on?
There IS such a thing ass being EVIL, and we do NO ONE any favors by calling the evil, good!
I'm not a religious nut, but Jesus is one of my primary heroes. He was NOT afraid to criticize evil people, to the point of pissing them off so badly, that they killed him! Here is what Jesus had to say about evil people:
"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."
You gonna nit-pick what he said, 'cause it was hyperbole? HOW could he call them vipers, when they had arms and legs, while vipers don't? Vipers are POISONOUS KILLERS, and the IDEAS being kicked around by hyper-tribal fanatics these days (in politics, on the streets, and right here on these pages) are poisonous killers as well!
The end result of endlessly, unfairly demonizing the "enemy" is that we do this so long, that we can now regard them as sub-human, and so now, we can kill them, and take their shit! Limitlessly demonizing the vote-stealing Demon-Craps ends up with witch-burnings and genocide! Or a NAZI-style holocaust, an Armenian genocide, or one like in Rwanda, USA-Americans v/s Native Americans at times, or Pol Pot in Cambodia. The list goes on and on!
It CAN happen here, and we are moving in that general direction! HERE is some well-written evidence!
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump’s Big Lie and Hitler’s: Is this how America’s slide into totalitarianism begins?
So tell me Sailor, was Jesus being a positive, functioning part of his society? Is it better to pamper the Precious Baby Feelings of evil, genocide-lusting poisonous vipers, or to unambiguously let them, and fence-straddling bystanders, know EXACTLY who and what they are?
Molly is a parody or McGuffin account to keep commenters commenting. Like the heel in traditional professional wrestling that garnered enough hate where marks spend money to attend the live show to see the heel get his ass kicked.
Yeah, those anti- intellectuals who founded 90% of the universities and hospitals still around today…
Which have been reverting to their fundamentalist seminary mode. But with new-age woke climatology doctrine.
Apparently, Augustine, and Thomas Aquinas do not exist. In recent times "Humanae Vitae", and Pope Benedict XVI scholarly writing does not exist.
You are truly a shining example of "Ignorance Is Strength".
Issac Newton was literally a catholic preist
My great aunt, the bio-chemist, who did cancer research out of Michigan University, and Roman Catholic nun would disagree.
How the Elite Changed Its Mind on Christianity
But obviously not the retards.
Lol
Doc retard always good for ignorant posts. Lol. Christianity led development of science for centuries doc retard.
Your atheist side has Lysenko. Want me to list the Christian scientists who advanced science?
Ever heard of St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, or Ignatius Loyola? Of course you haven’t! Didn’t even bother to read the article. You would rather cling to your caricature of Walmart Christians because you’re an intellectually lazy dimwit.
Again we see Molly's complete ignorance of reality. She asserts whatever puts down those she hates and the truth simply isn't a relevant consideration.
Sure, just ignore the fact that all Western universities were explicitly Christian for over a millennium and that what is preserved from the ancient world is pretty much thanks to Christian monks and scholars painstaking work to transcribe and preserve it.
Christianity has always been anti-intellectual and low-class.
They literally formed the foundation of western academia and preserved texts for centuries. The Renaissance didn't happen due to atheists.
And the "low-class" remark once again demonstrates that you retards are all about the "class war," until you think you're talking to someone lower on the socio-economic ladder that doesn't share your retrograde political theology. Then out comes the peacocking about your social status. Poser.
"Poser."
GollyMulva is a defective cog in the Reason psy-op machine, which isn't working very well these days. What she does most consistently is elicit a string of strong counterpoints, exposing the fool she is.
Poser. Yes, as with the whole lot of them, it is a handy indicator of failure.
You're an idiot, again. The reason most of the entire world was illiterate, not just Christians, was because paper was rare and expensive, and there was no printing press. Clay tablets are an expensive, bulky, heavy, and fragile way to spread the written word. Only a few rich people could afford books even when papyrus and then paper were invented, because everything written could only be copied by hand, one at a time.
Christianity has always been anti-intellectual and low-class. It is a very simple religion, believe Jesus died for your sins and...that is mostly it.
What's funny about this, is the people who believe this are low-class, provincial, un-intellectual dunderheads who have no understanding of history or the world.
Ignorant rage is all you have left. Sad.
You do not need to so consistently demonstrate your immense ignorance on all topics, Tony.
'These new atheists seized on the cringeworthy, distinctly lower-middle-class aesthetics of Bush-era Christianity. The aesthetics of many non-denominational Evangelical churches—unadorned auditoriums, cheesy worship music, and the occasional smoke machine or pledge to the Christian flag—fit within a broader cultural language of suburban kitsch.'
Now do hysterical climatology-rainbow gender-neo Marxist-victimhood cult worshippers. Talk about cringe-worthy.
I'd also say that Emma overstates the above. I'd say at least in the US Roman Catholic Church, the child molester shuffle, played a larger part in its decline, then some "cringe".
The "cringe" was more about the evangelical mega-churches. Which to my taste are pretty low-brow. I like a little formality and pomp with religious services. But I'm not a believer, so no one needs to care what I think.
If the press treated child sexual assault in the teaching profession like it does with the Catholic Church, public education would be completely terminated.
I truly am trying to understand what strange alternate reality of the twenty-aughts Emma Camp comes from where evangelical Christianity was particularly dominant. I lived through those years and I just do not recognize the description she gives. I do remember atheists trying to use the law to try to remove cross shaped war memorial monuments because it somehow made them uncomfortable.
She was born in the early aughts. Would be like me writing about hippies. I have some very vague memories of VW busses and guys with long hair but that’s about it.
See my comment below. Anti-Christian sentiment among the elites did not start in the early 2000s, it became prominent in the late 80s and really took off in the 90s.
That’s when it became mainstream. It’s been common among the “elites” since the Progressive Era began.
Buckley wrote”God and Man at Yale” in the early 1950s
Agreed.
A lot of it is probably based off of vague memories of Daily Show clips and various pop culture figures claiming the religious right was this massive political threat because Dubya was a reformed alcoholic that turned to religion to help him get sober.
TL,DR; I don't know the definition of cool. Never have. I do know that obsession over "lower-middle-class aesthetics of Bush-era Christianity" 20 yrs. later isn't it. Get a life, Emma.
While Gen Zers are still more likely to identify as religiously unaffiliated than previous groups, there's evidence that certain kinds of religious devotion are also growing in popularity—earlier this year, Roman Catholic dioceses around the western world reported spikes in adult conversions.
This "religion is down but spirituality is stable-to-up" has been reported across these polls (across continents) for over a decade. Unless you were some sort of ideological moron, The idea or expectation that people are becoming less Christian-like or more atheistic or objective (because the three are different things) is obvious.
The cool kids aren't the smug, strident atheists anymore—they're the Christians.
The smug, student atheists were never cool. Again, orthogonal high-achieving agnostics were cool and low-brow, low-achieving, socially-maladjusted idiots used the agnosticism to slur their (lack of) ideology with others' achievement and/or blame their own failures and stupidity on those other low-brow idiots and their Sky-Daddy worship the way you're doing now.
Regarding Liz Wolfe's/Megan McArdle's lamentations about a "lack of cannon": even a trivial reading of Nietzsche reveals "God is dead." to be a lamentation, not a declaration (unless you're a Nazi). Even a trivial reading of Turing and/or Gödel reveals there to be factual and even physical components of our universe that are observable but unknowable or irreducible. The sorts of things that, if atheism were an actual philosophy with any sort of founding principle or behavioral guidance or social/intellectual cohesion, would be consumed, digested, wrestled with, and disseminated the way Christian printing presses disseminated Galileo's work. Instead, atheism has been one big, long book of "How To Not Believe In Other Ideas For Dummies" book with some fantastically horrible chapters on the opposition to stable (co)habitation, opposition to sex/gender ideology, and critical opposition to modern non-tribal race ideology.
I don't have to believe in the reality of samsara or the existence of a super natural god, to understand that the teachings of Buddha or Jesus have personal and social value.
People I like or find interesting are cool. People I don't are uncool.
New Atheism failed because it was hubristic, disdainful, philosophically and spiritually empty. It tore down a lot of Chesterton's Fences while having nothing to replace them with. It was destructive of Western Culture for no purpose. And it eventually fell off the tiger of woke progressivism it tried to ride and was mauled.
'It was destructive of Western Culture for no purpose.'
Unless you seek to destroy Western Culture to prepare the way for Social Justice, True Marxism, WEF Utopia, and/or The Caliphate. Then you have plenty of purpose.
Perhaps, though Dawkins may have realized too late that this was a mistake.
The New Atheists targeted Islam as much as Christianity. That is how they fell out of favor with the prog left.
Cannot blame them, though. Christians would not kill them.
Muslims...that's a risk I would opt not to take.
"It tore down a lot of Chesterton's Fences while having nothing to replace them with. "
Reminds me of a conversation between Sam Harris and I believe it was Douglas Murray. Sam ponders out loud the conundrum of atheists having disdain for Christian/religious schools, but despite ample time, resources, and 'brain power' have yet to produce a functional alternative.
The merger of new atheism with neomarxism is probably its biggest issue. Marxists can only tear down and critique, cant build anything
Back in the 90s, most atheists didn't give a shit about someone's religious beliefs as long as you didn't hassle them about the lack of theirs.
Media like the Jon Stewart version of The Daily Show and the eventual emergence of Atheism+ is what ultimately turned post-Y2K atheism into its own quasi-religious movement. To the extent that young people are turning to religion, it's specifically because this version of atheism has absolutely nothing of value or substance to bring meaning to their lives other than non-stop political sperging about race and gender marxism.
You have had the Maureen O'Hara type atheist cranks going back to the '60s. There has been a resentment fueled side to atheism for a long time.
That's Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Maureen O'Hara was a hot Irish movie star.
I dedicate this to Madalyn,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuZTk1hdpMs&ab_channel=mdoelle
It was always an explicitly left-wing movement. And like a lot of left-wingers, they assumed that socio-economic structures will continue to function like they always have regardless of the stresses and demands placed upon it. It's a cornerstone of their belief system, along with being anti-white and anti-male.
And in many cases, they were quite explicit about the fact that they thought the US and western civ needed to be "disrupted, dismantled, and abolished." This didn't make them any different from the New Left Boomer commies or their early Gen-X proteges who chanted "hey hey, ho ho, western civ has got to go" on college campuses from the late 60s-mid 80s. This attitude has been prevalent in their movement for decades now.
The Marxists in academia systematically wiped the role of religion in scientific advancement from the curriculum while inserting CRT. We now have a generation that struggles to identify that humans are dimorphic, and are incapable of determining the root cause of the conflict in Palestine.
The argument against "gay marriage" was never exclusively religious. It was just that arguments that extending marriage to same sex couples served no societal good or need were disallowed by judges more interested in being historic and reveling in the application of a false equivalency.
It was never even primarily religious, which fact is made obvious by religion's being downstream of society rather than vice versa. Religions get their ideas from somewhere, and it's not like they invented marriage.
"This is a big change from the past few decades, in which internet "new atheism" effectively framed religion, Christianity in particular, as fundamentally anti-intellectual and subtly low-class. "
All of this is likely just a reflection of the political realignment that has happened.
The overarching culture used to be Christian. The people who wanted you to talk the right way, not say certain words, and throw cold water on fun were more likely to be bible thumpers. Atheism or agnosticism were the counter culture, they were punk rock, they were the rebels.
I probably now encounter 1 christian for every 10 non-religious people I meet in public. The dominant culture is secular and left wing now. If you have a Karen berating you about not speaking correctly, being crass, or being offensive and catching the vapors about something you said, its almost certain that person is a far left woman with blue hair and a pride flag. Left wing women have fully taken over the mantle of condescending, preachy, scolding school marms. Its no surpsise the opposing culture is having a resurgence
"The greatest trick the UN pulled was to Christianize the world and call it secular" -- Tom Holland.
"The second greatest trick the UN ever pulled was convincing the world that they're the good guys." -- Andrew Garfield (LOL)
Christians were cast as uneducated rednecks—creationists, climate-change deniers, and pearl-clutching censors. This framing of the religious was obviously influenced by the backlash to George W. Bush-era conservatism. Movies like Jesus Camp and shows like 19 Kids and Counting, which portrayed evangelical "fundies" at their most mockable, only reinforced the impression that religion is a small-minded, bigoted, and jingoistic endeavor.
By the way, for you Reason kids rocking vertical IDs, this anti-Christian mocking from popular culture/Hollywood was not a response to Bush-era conservatism, it had been going strong since the 1990s (P.C. 1.0) and was likely a backlash to Reagan-era conservatism. I might give you a pass because I could probably agree that it reached its Apex in the early 2000s, but trust me, the entire 1990s was one big 'lol-snort' mocking of Christians as a group.
I can't speak to the new resurgence of Christian/Spiritual values right now, although I do get a sense it's happening. But if we put any weight to "New Atheism" as a movement, it was most certainly bound to fail for several reasons.
1. All it did was deconstruct the scientific basis for a "god".
2. Because of 1, it ended up in Jr. High debate-club level arguments about morality.
3. It had no morality while claiming to BE moral, even while people like Sam Harris unwittingly argued that morality didn't exist, because to be human was nothing more than existing as a bag of chemicals with random electrical signals firing from neurons and synapses based on external stimuli and as such, we are just one gear tooth in the massive clockworks of the universe. (as an atheist/agnostic, there's nothing more depressing and horrifying than that).
4. Because it had no morality, it had no choice but to go "woke" and that explains the collapse of New Atheism several years ago after elevator-gate, and prompted the creation of Atheism Plus (I'm not fucking kidding) which was Atheism with a set of ten commandments. That movement collapsed after a predictable set of #MeToo allegations as well. Herpetologist's handshake never fails.
Oh, I almost forgot:
5. Because there was a strong woke element in New Atheism, it was controversial to criticize Islam-- and this is generally true of the left. So it found itself standing in an uncomfortable klieg light every time the subject of Islam came up-- so the movement would collectively mumble and going back to lol-snorting over Christianity. And most everyone saw right through it.
There's a fairly well-known clip of internet famous lefty atheist Vaush watching a panel of women talking about sexual assault. He's all-in on agreeing with them until one of the women brings up that the guy who assaulted her was Muslim, at which point he does a complete 180 and says her claim is bullshit.
Vaush, like a lot of online lefties, is a massive pedophile as well.
Massive pedophile? Is that a fatso who likes kids, or someone who likes fat kids?
"And most everyone saw right through it."
And that is because people are beginning to see right through all the posers. Which explains all the pants-shitting about losing their control of the media. They are being EXPOSED (and it is a glory to behold).
"So it found itself standing in an uncomfortable klieg light every time the subject of Islam came up-- "
Yup, the problem with merging with the woke/marxists, is that that framework became the dominant one, with atheism being on the back burner.
And when you have a primary tenant being "you cant criticize Islam because they are ostracized brown people" completely at odds with "as atheists, we staunchly oppose fundamentalist religions, especially ones that call for violence/murder for violating its scripture"...you completely gave up the game and just look like hypocrites/jokes.
Would be like being staunchly anti-homosexuality as your core value, but explaining how sometimes you also have to participate in a few bath-house orgies a month
I read 2 of Sam Harris's books, one about meditation and one about morality. It surprised me to see that an atheist could be so thoroughly "hip" on meditation & meditation retreats, but never mind that.
I do have to give Sam H. credit for tearing into fundamentalist Islam (see Afghanistan today), and how his liberal buddies could say "all religions are equal", and "these are just value judgments", when quite obviously, some are far more compatible with "human thriving" than others. Sam wrote that he'd ask his buddies if they would mind if their daughter ran off to join the Taliban!
History began when Emma started middle school
Huh. I thought it began when I started middle school.
Honestly, I think that's typically how we frame our understanding of society, just because that's when we often start to become aware that there really is a massive, complex world outside our immediate households or neighborhoods. From a pop culture standpoint, for me anything before the mid-80s (which is really when the "80s aesthetic" we typically associate with the decade began) often looks like something from a completely alien society.
I think it began even before they started using the term middle school (I attended junior high).
History began with writing, but they cut out the parts 'bout Olmec brothers and Black Egyptians flying airplanes around the Pyramids.
I'm an atheist but I am also pragmatic like Dawkins. So I would add to your list:
6. There is no secular path to forgiveness.
Once you have "sinned" you carry the mark forever. The Secular Inquisition can only destroy heterodoxy, not absorb or absolve it. Granted the path to forgiveness in religion is administered by shitheads, but there is still a theoretical path at least.
Unless by some miracle we can manage a libertarian secular orthodoxy where we generally agree that it is not for us to judge and punish those who don't transgress against us because the do or believe things we think are wrong.
it had been going strong since the 1990s (P.C. 1.0) and was likely a backlash to Reagan-era conservatism
Here's a clip from Crossfire in 1986 of Frank Zappa lamenting the rise of Christofascism.
For reference, this was 6 yrs. before everyone would see Sharon Stone's cooch in Basic Instinct, 9 yrs. before everyone would see Pamela Anderson Lee's cooch on Tommy's boat, 15 yrs. before everyone would see Paris Hilton's cooch in Rick Salomon's tape, and 21 yrs. before everyone would see Kim Kardashian's cooch in Ray J.'s video. Rise of Christofascism indeed.
...and all that in comparison to the juggernaut that onlyfans has become...
yup, truly a theocratic fascist state that empowers women to make millions off showing their pussy to a webcam from an air conditioned mansion
>>Movies like Jesus Camp and shows like 19 Kids and Counting,
am I the only one who is 0-2 on what these are?
*raises hand*
Well, I had to learn about elevator-gate from this comment thread.
History began when Emma started middle school
But, they are, in her mind, intellectual touchstones of the era!
I don't think it's even that. They are just what came to her mind when thinking about the pop-culture perception of Christians.
I think they were at the top of the results of whatever "Show me campy Christian media from The Bush Era" query/prompt she gave to Google/ChatGPT.
0-2 and I've said the pledge to The Bible while standing in a converted warehouse, full of people, between Christian rock songs, with a smoke machine, in the early 90s.
Your opinion on Stryper? I've heard they're underrated.
Some people hear The Rolling Stones before the Beatles, some people hear Metallica before Megadeath, I heard Petra first.
Slightly OT: Hilarious historical revision/cultural context shift - Here's a music video from the 80s where a billboard-topping Hoosier with a mullet gets tipped $20 from a black man in a business suit because he thinks he's a bum (To be fair, he's got Roddy Piper's style from They Live! going on). LOL@Barack "That could've been me." Obama
Today, one can belong to the ideas-making class—an aspiring public intellectual or artist—and still be religious, so long as one steers clear of evangelical kitsch.
By the way, these people always existed, but we collectively pretended they didn't.
Before he became the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Russel Nelson was a pioneering heart surgeon. One of his counselors was a Stanford business professor and the other was a federal judge.
Who cares about being perceived as cool when you are a highly successful, well regarded, intellectual powerhouse?
It is quite well known that Russell Nelson has lied about some of his accomplishments and other activities. He’s not the pioneering surgeon the church makes him out to be.
Or Ben Carson. I wouldn't take him at his word on many subjects, but he's a damn fine surgeon.
Also:
“the other was a federal judge.”
Dallin Oaks was a Utah Supreme Court judge and was considered a candidate for the US Supreme Court, but he was never a federal judge.
Elites have always been high church. Not 'low church' OR atheist/deist. That doesn't mean elites (or R now-elites) have chance to shake hands across the generations with a GenZ that may/not be experiencing high church religion in early adulthood.
I wonder whether the resurgence of attendance at churches is for social, rather than religious, reasons.
I say 100% that. My own extended family of Genz'ers had to deal with both the Covid lockdowns and the last few years of school and social media where social interaction is crappy. They are one of the first generations where they will have to establish face-to-face connections - starting as adults out-of-school.
Church is one of those - esp now that churches are tending younger than things like political parties. The 'community churches' (non-Catholic and not really even denominational) near my neighborhood are also busy with activities and link it with music, farmers markets, hikes, etc. So not really just a bunch of near-dead people or in-your-face ideologues.
I can't remember the last time I saw a film made by an ostensibly secular filmmaker for a distinctly elite and educated audience that treats religion so credulously.
Emma too young to have seen The Rapture ?
Screw religions in general. Not one has stood up to logic and/or scientific rigor. Most are actively harmful. I've not met one religion that didn't try to control and/or blame women for the sin of being alive.
I was told I was a filthy sinner and deserved to be punished for sins/crimes I didn't commit, and only by begging a mystery paternal figure could I be forgiven ... I was 8. Then I was slut-shamed into modesty and meekness for the crime of developing breasts at 13, and forever made subconscious and self-doubting and ashamed of my body by 16; complete with the burden of causing men to be lustful while also being told if I was a victim of that lust ... that too, was my fault. At least in the bible-belt they didn't make us wear a burka on top of everything else.
Religion and everything attached to it can kiss my backside... especially nuns.
Shut yo' dick-smacker, Jezebel.
Kindly, no.
I take orders from one man in the whole world and we're wearing matching wedding bands.
"Not one has stood up to logic and/or scientific rigor."
Men can become women if they REALLY believe they are women, however, DID pass scientific and logical rigor by folks like you.
Just noting something that seems funny.
I have never said that because it's a lie. Go project your strawman arguments at someone else.
It's incorrect to say that Dawkins has softened on Christianity. Many have jumped on those quoted comments as some sort of position change because they would find such a change satisfying, but he has always been harder on modern Islam than modern Christianity and having grown up in England he unsurprisingly had many traditions with Christian roots as part of his culture. He has held those opinions all along and has even said after that interview that his comments have been misinterpreted. Liking the bells and smells is fine, but it's no reason to start literally believing in magic.
Yeah the "softened" thing made me smirk a little. Describing is not subscribing as I like to say.
Horseshit. He got "Cultural Christian" from Freeman Dyson who, in 2000 he criticized by saying "It would be taken as an endorsement of religion by one of the world's most distinguished physicists." for accepting the Templeton Prize. The typical response for a fellow "practicing, not believing" scientist that even the most radical fundamentalist Christian could understand would be "Great." or "Good work."
I know atheists struggle to even see patterns of behavior and deductions from them as real things but that doesn't make the patterns or deductions morally or logically incorrect.
What's with all the elite shit? Is that supposed to be rich people? Or ivy league grads? Or hollyweirders? Or is it just people who think they're superior to other people for some reason? In other words anyone? Is Emma one of them?
Someday the planet will evolve beyond the need for magical beings and be better off for it.