The Depopulation Bomb
What if the challenge for humanity’s future is not too many people on a crowded planet, but too few people to sustain the progress that the world needs?

After the Spike: Population, Progress, and the Case for People, by Dean Spears and Michael Geruso, Simon & Schuster, 320 pages, $29.99
Natalist panic is rife nowadays. The White House is weighing initiatives to boost the number of births, ranging from a $5,000-per-baby bonus to awarding "National Medals of Motherhood" to mothers with six or more children. In March, the NatalCon gathering in Austin, Texas, declared that we're "living through the greatest population bust in human history." In April, the tech billionaire (and father of 14 children) Elon Musk posted on X: "Low birth rates will end civilization."
And yet the world's population continues to grow: 132 million people were born in 2024, boosting the global population by 71 million. Over the course of my lifetime, the U.S. population has risen from 160 million to 342 million and the world population has grown from 2.6 billion to 8.1 billion.
Still, given current trends, demographers calculate that world population will likely peak at just over 10 billion later in this century and then start to fall. Why? Because people are choosing to have fewer children. The total fertility rate—that is, the number of children the average woman has over the course of her lifetime—has been falling for decades. On a global scale, it has dropped from 5 kids in the 1960s to 2.2 children now. In the U.S., the rate has fallen from around 3.6 in 1960 to 1.6 today. That is well below the population replacement rate of 2.1 children per woman.
Even if Musk's end-of-civilization worries are a bit hyperbolic, should we be concerned about impending depopulation? In After the Spike, the economic demographers Dean Spears and Michael Geruso argue, somewhat persuasively, that we should.
The book's first section shows that current fertility trends will yield a spike in population followed by accelerating population decline. Since many people still believe that a world with fewer people is worth pursuing, the authors next turn to dismantling the case against more people.
The most infamous modern prophet of population doom is the Stanford biologist Paul Ehrlich. In his 1968 bestseller, The Population Bomb, Ehrlich proclaimed that the "battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's the world will undergo famines—hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." Instead of that doomsday scenario, farmers deploying modern tech have boosted the number of daily calories per person by more than a third since the 1960s. Instead of rising death rates, global life expectancy rose from 57 years in 1968 to 73 years now.
Spears and Geruso comprehensively demolish Ehrlich's doomsaying. They fully acknowledge that human activities have harmed the natural world, but they make a strong case that human ingenuity is addressing such environmental concerns as man-made climate change and declining biodiversity. "The data tell us that lives are better now than lives were in the past—even though there are many more lives around. Fears of a depleted, overpopulated future are out-of-date," they rightly conclude.
So why are birth rates falling all over the world? The authors knock down the conventional hypothesis that rising monetary costs are to blame. The real costs of children, they argue, are the opportunity costs: "what a potential parent would be ready to give up to have an extra child." The seductions of the modern world include higher paying work, longer vacations, restaurant meals, sports, video games, innumerable on-demand entertainment options, and so forth. "Once we see that costs include opportunity costs, as life becomes richer and more rewarding, children cost more," they say. "Even if we eliminated every dimension of social inequality and unfairness between women and men, the opportunity cost of having a child would still be greater in the richer, freer, better-entertained future than it was in the past." And as demographic history shows, fewer and fewer people are willing to pay those costs.
The authors fear a depopulating world will bring permanent economic and social stagnation. More people mean more ideas, and more ideas mean increasing abundance and better solutions to problems. "Without people to do the discovering, innovating, and testing, less creation will happen. Less advancement. Less progress," they argue. "A larger future is a future with more total innovators."
To have that more innovative future, Spears and Geruso want to move from depopulation to population stabilization. "The economics of scale and shared innovations mean that we can do more good together than alone," they observe.
Spears and Geruso admit that they and other demographers have identified no policies that have ever lifted a country's total fertility rate once it has fallen below the replacement level. They point out that "population control has never controlled the population." To illustrate their point, they compare China's fertility trend under its one-child policy to the trends of peer nations. There is no discernable difference—fertility was falling at basically the same rate in each country.
Neither outlawing abortion nor limiting contraception has had any discernable effects on these trends either. For decades, procuring or providing an abortion was a crime in South Korea, a policy that didn't end until 2019. Yet that country has the world's lowest fertility rate of 0.75 children per woman.
What about cash payments, subsidized child care, longer maternity and paternity leave, or free in vitro fertilization treatments? None of them, wherever tried, have sustainably boosted birth rates.
Spears and Geruso also take on the argument that the heritability of high-fertility cultures will prevent depopulation. This is the idea that the children of groups that give birth to large families will themselves choose to have big families. Consequently, these high-fertility groups will eventually outbreed and replace the low-fertility people and thus boost future population growth. One problem: Contemporary high-fertility groups today have lower fertility than in their own pasts. They too are tracing the downward slope toward below replacement fertility.
Despite these policy failures, Spears and Geruso worry that demagogues will use concerns over low birth rates to pursue unsavory agendas "of inequality, nationalism, exclusion, or control." While they strongly believe that "it would be better if the world did not depopulate," they also defend reproductive freedom. "Nobody should be forced or required to have a baby (or not to have a baby)," they maintain.
The book's biggest flaw is that the authors mostly elide the inception and spread of the crucial economic and political institutions of liberty—strong property rights, free speech, the rule of law, self-government, etc.— that enabled the simultaneous increase in prosperity and population over the past two centuries.
So what to do about depopulation? Spears and Geruso say they do "not pretend to offer the Solution. There is no Solution with a capital S. Not yet." Instead they invite readers to work toward societies where "parenting can be combined with other paths to well-being and value; where parenting is fun, rewarding, and great more of the time." Avoiding depopulation is a worthy endeavor, but that means figuring out how to lower the opportunity costs of parenthood.
This article first appeared online and has been updated for print.
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"What about cash payments, subsidized child care, longer maternity and paternity leave, or free IVF treatments? None of them, wherever tried, have sustainably boosted birth rates."
These efforts have been studied, though, and it's not like they were utterly ineffectual. See, for instance, this study in Israel. The problem is actually that the subsidies in question appear to have been much too small to actually make enough of a difference. People respond to the incentives, but the incentives tried were inadequate to get the job done. Basically the incentives need to be large enough to make having children look like an attractive career for a woman to chose. Rather than just a slightly less expensive diversion from a career.
The real issue here is that the people who are most responsive to financial incentives to have children, are the people who you least want to have children: The poor! Buying more poor people isn't a great deal at any price.
So any support program needs to be structured to increase reproduction by the most productive segment of society, rather than the least productive. And to encourage reproduction in the most fertile years, not towards the end of fertility, when there simply isn't time to have many children. Finally, you don't want to bother offering incentives to people wealthy enough to not really care about them. Like Musk...
To encourage women to have their children during their most fertile years, maybe the simplest approach would be to make college totally free for mothers of 2 or more children, so that having the children up front looks like a sensible move.
To make the incentives target the productive, they should probably take the form of a lifetime exemption from taxation on jointly filed income, up to some substantial income ceiling, which scales with the number of children. That way the incentive automatically gets more valuable for more productive people, and no incentive at all for people on the dole.
There are rational incentives which would probably work. The biggest challenge is probably convincing governments that those incentives make more sense than just importing people from the third world.
What a hideous comment. Eugenics trotted out as some libertarian free market tart.
You either didn't read or didn't understand the comment. Care to take another try?
Where's the element of eugenics?
So long as children are raised by their own parents, they are to be expected to adopt their parents' values and cultural habits. And it is these things that mostly are responsible for poverty.
So if you pay the poor to raise children, they will raise them to be poor. That's not a sound investment in the future!
Eugenics is about genetics, not culture.
You are just silly. Kids do NOT adopt their parents values (often they rebel because those values are their parents' values !!!) and they get cultural habits --- this is so much fun to point out --- FROM THE CULTURE.
Eugenics is heartless killing and disrespect for human dignity. I stop their because your values and cultural habits are what is called "the culture of death" you silly man
Perhaps the problem is all the holier than thou Marxists (baily included) telling people they are better people for not reproducing. Granted if all progressives committed suicide the world would be a better place
Then there’s all that taxpayer funded ablrtion.
Naaah, not even close....As even super-liberal Sen Moynihan acknowledged , it was government programs that destroyed the family, morality , and children's lives
Nowadays, with abortion and homosexuality, the 2 most perverted nails go into the coffin
36,000 Preschools Shut Down in China in Sign of Total Doom
Scores of Chinese have stopped getting married or having kids.
https://spectator.org/36000-preschools-shut-down-in-china-in-sign-of-total-doom/
==========================
In too many cases, if our Government had set out determined to destroy the family, it couldn't have done greater damage than some of what we see today.
Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
=======================
Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the civil rights laws and “war on poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.
Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”
…..
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%].
THOMAS SOWELL
NOT EVEN CLOSE
"As even super-liberal Sen Moynihan acknowledged….."
Pat Moynihan was about a s liberal as Henry Jackson.
So you deluded attackers of his attacks say ????
"And a liberal is what Moynihan was through and through: a New Dealer for whom the Democratic Party was as much a Burkean platoon politically as his local Catholic parish was ethnically. His essential principles remained unchanged between the first ballot he cast in the basement of St. Raphael's Church in Hell's Kitchen in 1948 and the last vote he cast in the chamber of the United States Senate 52 years later. The pandemonium of the 1960s distressed but never disillusioned him — a distinction that is decisive for understanding why he declined to join the neoconservative defection from the Democratic Party. Moynihan, a self-aware thinker entitled to self-description, resisted the neoconservative label with emphatic consistency.."
Even after many decades, you losers can't face the facts 🙂
The salient one being that neoconservatism's founders were all Democrats- The first Presidential candidate Bill Kristol chose to back was Jimmy Carter.
I have a counterpoint.
More people means more urbanization, means more people dependent upon centrally controlled infrastructure means more people under the thumb of a minority - and more people brainwashed to think submission is normal.
Fewer people means more room and more need for self-reliance.
Secondly, more people means more ideas, sure. It also means more idiots insisting we repeat the mistakes of the past over and over again. There's a reason all the Blue cities are Blue.
This is the sort of counterpoint that exposes Reason writers for their urban leftist alignment. The speed of progress is hampered by an insufficient number of innovators as well as supporting laborers to fulfill the physical tasks required. A constant push for population growth gives us useless eaters and destructive factions in a society.
It is important to place the maintaining and betterment of your culture above these raw "graph go up!" arguments.
Also, point of note, more ideas does not necessarily mean more good ideas.
None of that is true or conforms to the data.
That 'minority' has the more children so you can forget that.
Fewer people still get married and the criticial strain comes from divorce--- and just for me , why stress self-reliance, that is the dagger that kills society. We are one human family, less self-reliance would be a path to a better world.
Your last point gives the reason you think so badly in your prior points : you sure don't think it applies to you, do you !! You are not an idiot and you have a genius to vouch for that :YOU !!!
In fine, this is just hubris erupting like an misanthropic volcano. You wish you were king of the world
People adapt, robotics, AI will replace some of the work that people now do. The problem is entirely on governments running Ponzi schemes living on debt and counting on inflation and more population to bail out the fiscal insanity. Not just a US issue.
What you're missing is that a reduction of fertility significantly below replacement results in a distorted age distribution; Population becomes heavily weighted towards older people approaching the end of life, rather than younger people.
So you get considerably reduced productivity combined with a heavy demand for expensive medical care.
Now, IF almost all production were automated, including provision of medical care, this might not be a disaster, and certainly not an immediate one. But we're not yet in that position, and might not be in it for many decades to come.
This is opposite sides of the same coin.
The expectation of massive amounts of expensive medical care is the lion's share of The Ponzi Scheme. If, tomorrow, it was suddenly deemed noble and good for everyone in the Western World over the age of 60 to go face their death bringing Western/Enlightenment or even Progressive values to the rest of the world, the demand for heavy-handed and expensive healthcare goes away.
The Ponzi scheme is the main reason governments care about this problem, but it's only the most imminent threat. Far fewer poeple means a collapsing housing market, mass school closures, entire sectors of the economy evaporating, etc.
This is the main reason both parties have allowed tens of millions of people with a third-grade education to flood across our border. If we can't make em at home, we'll have em shipped in. Importing humans is probably the right course of action if America wants to continue to be the top dog. But obviously we should be bringing in the best and brightest from every corner of the globe, not whatever person happens to meander across a border that is wide open every four years.
"Importing humans is probably the right course of action if America wants to continue to be the top dog."
It's only buying time, fertility is dropping in the third world, too. This is one of those problems that get harder to solve the longer you put off solving them, as the culture evolves away from the accommodations necessary for a replacement level birth rate. Culturally we're forgetting how to be fertile and raise children properly.
At the end of the day this is a self-correcting cycle.
The population skews older, less productivity and wealth, the older die faster, the population skews younger and poorer, fertility rises, rinse, repeat.
We've thought ourselves outside of blind animal cycles - like animals reproducing until they eat everything, die off, the food regenerates, animals breed until they eat everything - but we've just moved the cycles to something else.
But as a nominally intelligent species, we should be able to avoid a catastrophic die back with consequent collapse of civilization.
DO you know what 'nominally' means ? In name only.
Hence the Nominalism that many decry today. Anyway, we don't think as a species !!! do we ????
And you unawares go full moral when you say avoid a die back...but why is that a desideratum, we all die.
So what? We have decades. We have centuries to work on these problems.
NO, Brett, you don't take female gendercide into account so you ludicrously assume male-female parity, something that is way off in the most populated unstable regions
https://invisiblegirlproject.org/
63 million girls are missing from India’s population. Join us in ending female gendercide!
CHINA
“Because of abortion, abandonment, and infanticide of baby girls, there are an estimated 37 million Chinese men who will never marry because they cannot find wives. This gender imbalance is a powerful, driving force behind trafficking in women and sexual slavery from nations surrounding China. ..‘Women and children from neighboring countries including Burma, Vietnam, Laos, Mongolia, Russia, and North Korea, and from locations as far as Romania and Zimbabwe are reportedly trafficked to China for commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor.’”
WAY WAY OFF
And, absent government interference, we'll adapt.
Obviously NOT relying on more population to bail them out.
But pregnancy, child birth, and motherhood are patriarchal oppression! Achieving gender equality--or better yet, equity--requires the end of human reproduction, at least by the superior class.
And parenthood in general is a real drag. Kids get in the way of all the cool stuff, including perpetual childhood for the 20-somethings.
It's kind of like exercise and a proper diet, in a way. The long term rewards are enormous, but they accumulate gradually, while the costs are up front.
Does that even make sense???? While it takes 20+ years for a new human to enter the workforce, the Japanese 'dying alone' phenomenon increases.
36,000 Preschools Shut Down in China in Sign of Total Doom
Scores of Chinese have stopped getting married or having kids.
by Ellie Gardey Holmes
July 2, 2025, 2:49 PM
Almost 70000 Japanese people will die alone this year and ...
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
https://www.abc.net.au › news › dying-alone-japan-solit...
Aug 24, 2024 — This means about 88,000 people are expected to die solitary deaths in Japan this year. It's a crisis that is only going to worsen
We are already toast. The crushing of Planned Parenthood baby killers will help but the ticket is in. Don't be a pollyanna
Perpetual childhood for the 20-somethngs? Have you met a 30-something or 40-something? The problem is considerably worse and deeper than you think.
More testes needed.
NO, again, you assume normalcy where there is none
Sperm counts may be declining... (CNN News)
National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › search › research-news
Over the past 50 years, human sperm counts appear to have fallen by more than 50% around the globe, according to an updated review of medical literature.
So whatever you were thinking , at least double it.
Sorry you didn’t get the joke.
No, you aren't sorry 🙂 nor was it a joke 🙂
Less innovation may not be an existential crisis - at least one we should worry about. After all, climate change will finish us all well before we could innovate our way out of it.
Anybody who actually believes this should probably remove themselves from the equation. Anything less would be a crime against the planet.
I suggest a carbon-neutral method like a bedsheet tied to a beam. No head in the gas stove or cars left running in the garage, please. Think of the trees.
That bedsheet better be made from fair trade organic cotton.
Obvi.
I spent years in what you might call 'the tree industry". climate change is BS but so is the carbon neutral thing.
IF YOU ARE SERIOUS (and most eveyone on here when confronted says in effect "of course I was kidding")
Green Spirit: Trees are the Answer
by Patrick Moore
"Greenpeace co-founder and former leader Dr. Patrick Moore, an ecology PhD, challenges our common assumptions about forests and forestry, and demonstrates why those assumptions are so often wrong. Written for the expert and novice alike, this book -- fully updated and revised to tackle today's tough environmental challenges -- will entertain and enlighten by taking you behind the scenes, showing you forests and forest management in a way you've likely never seen before. In an approach that runs counter to much of the environmental movement’s current thinking, Trees are the Answer gives readers new eyes with which to see the land"
I still recall speaking with him about 25 years ago
Pure Bosh, climate change is helping.
Increased CO2 has greened an area of the sahara equal to the combined size of France and Germany !!!
Many more people die of cold than of heat
Planned Parenthood is a killer but not that.
PP not CC
700,000 Square Kilometers Of Added Green Vegetation, Climate Change Shrinks Sahara Desert By Whopping 8%!
By P Gosselin on 16. January 2019
Eight percent of that translates into more than 700,000 square kilometers. That’s an area that’s almost as big as Germany and France combined! This is profound.
In other words, it’s well over 10,000 Manhattans!
Spring for a real newspaper, you can still line the birdcage just as well
Yeah, I have to say that thinking that more CO2 is bad for trees requires a remarkable ignorance of biology.
I could make a case for more CO2 being bad for grasses; That C4 photosynthesis really has the advantage at low CO2 levels. But not for trees!
Spears and Geruso admit that they and other demographers have identified no policies that have ever lifted a country's total fertility rate once it has fallen below the replacement level. They point out that "population control has never controlled the population." To illustrate their point, they compare China's fertility trend under its one-child policy to the trends of peer nations. There is no discernable difference—fertility was falling at basically the same rate in each country.
This feels like a stupid sampling of confirmation bias performed by two terrible scientists on a couple of levels.
First, the idea that there are zero policies that have ever lifted a country's total fertility rate or population once below replacement is dumb, prima facie. Every last civilization on Earth arose out of either complete non-existence or other civilization through explicit or implicit policy differences *and* increased total fertility. They may not have been explicitly labeled "Bill to Increase/Decrease Total Fertility" or similar, but, e.g., first born sons were absolutely taken, castrated, and used to subjugate neighboring kingdoms, drive their fertility rates, and enslave their sons as policy. "Be fruitful and multiply." is policy, the fact that we're at 7B and headed for 10B is testament to your retardation being every bit as bad as Ehrlich's.
Second, in lieu of the above, their example is self-evidently retarded. Both my neighbors' houses for the last 15 yrs. haven't had kids. No new children have been born in my house for the last 15 yrs. Did the "no new children policy" in our house evidently fail because my neighbors chose not to have kids? Are you retarded? The only proof that China's One Child Policy failed would be a population explosion within China. Everything else aligned with the goal of maintaining or decreasing the population and the claim that it didn't is delusional "a man with a penis who identifies as a woman is a woman" gaslighting. To extrapolate it from that "failure" to the failure(s) to increase population and onward to universal failure in both/any direction is beyond stupid.
Any inability to fix or control total fertility would seem to arise out of selective stupidity, one way or the other, rather than out of the success or failure of any sort of policy.
This put me in mind of how South Korea very possibly/probably killed its fertility rate through the policy of K-Pop.
What is dumb is to claim 'dumb, prima facie" as if everything that makes sense has no surprise about it.
And incredibly stupid and ignorant to not know that the big problem for decades has been not fertility , not raw numbers, but female gendercide .
INDIA now ,by selective abortion, is missing 63 MILLION GIRLS
63 million girls are missing from India’s population. Join us in ending female gendercide!
https://invisiblegirlproject.org/
IN China much worse
China's One-Child Policy Examined by House Committee
https://www.wcpinst.org › source › chinas-one-child-po...
Sep 22, 2024 — Littlejohn added, “Because of abortion, abandonment, and infanticide of baby girls, there are an estimated 37 million Chinese men who will never marry because there are NO WOMEN FOR THEM
"“Because of abortion, abandonment, and infanticide of baby girls, there are an estimated 37 million Chinese men who will never marry because they cannot find wives. This gender imbalance is a powerful, driving force behind trafficking in women and sexual slavery from nations surrounding China.... ‘Women and children from neighboring countries including Burma, Vietnam, Laos, Mongolia, Russia, and North Korea, and from locations as far as Romania and Zimbabwe are reportedly trafficked to China for commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor.’”
Ok, this reasoning is so bad I have to comment
Here is a comment so illogical --and shows no understanding of human motivation , to boot --- "The only proof that China's One Child Policy failed would be a population explosion within China."
HOW GODDAM STUPID
What it must say even logically is that once you institute something like One Child Policy it is not reversible by any governemnt means. People that have had to kill a child will in no way have a population explosion !! Use your goddam heart and head
I was going to post some pictures of Chinese women with their aborted baby remains next to them, it was a global scandal when it happened but if someone doesn't even read the papers hell with em
What is argued in the book is the inverse of the diminishing baseline argument. Look how good humans have it now with all of the "progress" made over the centuries. We give that up with too few people? How is that? That progress was made with far fewer people.
From a biologists point of view, the choice of reproductive strategy is completely predicated on the life history of the animal in question. That life history is in turn controlled by the environment and developmental restrictions. Human reproductive biology, fecundity and fertility, is an innate drive embedded in human evolutionary and life histories. If women are, by conscious choice or unconcsious drive, having less children, then as a biologist, I would look to external factors that influence fecundity and fertility. Those include health status, nutrition, population density, mate choice, and environmental stability. A framework for understanding fecundity are the tradeoffs between increased reproduction and overall survival. Does a women choose to invest more energy in one offspring or many? If one only do you wait until your health, mate choice and environmental variables are optimal? This is not a theoretical argument. Every animal on this planet makes the same computation.
The people who are arguing for increased reproduction ought to look at the human environment and ask a question. Is Mother Nature, through the surrogate of birth rate, speaking to deficiencies in human culture and ecology? The answer is impossible to ignore.
Maybe the problem is that, biologically, humans are running up against the carrying capacity of their environment. In this case a true rate limiting resource may simply be time. Too much time is spent pursuing the cash necessary to first birth a child. And then once birthed, in the US, parenting is outsourced for even more cash. It is a vicious cycle which leads to ever decreasing birth rates.
A second argument, not unrelated to the first is whether people are consciously or even unconsciously recognizing that 8+ billion people on the planet may be too much. Again a carrying capacity argument. More people needed to simply consume and maintain an artificial human economy at the cost of the worlds environment does not seem like a winning argument to many people. Talk to the 20 somethings today and you will get that type of answer quite a bit. Has nothing to do with a desire to live the life of leisure described by the authors.
We give that up with too few people? How is that? That progress was made with far fewer people.
The question isn't "can we do it with fewer people (who are replacing themselves)" the question is "can we do it with a larger population that isn't replacing itself and will eventually collapse completely"?
Maybe the problem is that, biologically, humans are running up against the carrying capacity of their environment. In this case a true rate limiting resource may simply be time. Too much time is spent pursuing the cash necessary to first birth a child. And then once birthed, in the US, parenting is outsourced for even more cash. It is a vicious cycle which leads to ever decreasing birth rates.
We haven't reached or exceeded "Mother nature's carrying capacity"-- there's simply no evidence for that. However, I am increasingly coming to believe that we've reached "Western liberal secular democracy's carrying capacity". I am slowly coming around to the theory that our current human-devised systems of governance simply can't handle the populations they're tasked with governing. We are essentially, ungovernable.
This is where libertarianism should kick in-- smaller, local control, less control- less 'rubbing our noses in diversity', less "masks aren't mere talismans". But alas... we get Reason's version of technology-underwritten libertinism and celebration of occupationally-licensed statecraft.
You are just dumb, no other explanation. Mother Nature is a nothing.
We have too few people and your ignorance in assuming sexual parity in numbers IS ASTOUNDING. I was going to trot out the female gendercide stats that all population watchers know, but you must be so clueless it would be a waste of time.
YOu say something so stupid I cannot let it pass. The chief BY FAR destroyer of the world's environment is 3-fold
1) Lack of PROPERTY RIGHTS as detailed by Hernando de Soto for decades (were you sleeping in the forest)
2) Poverty EG
Forests, trees and poverty alleviation: Policy implications of ...
ScienceDirect.com
https://www.sciencedirect.com › article › abs › pii
by DC Miller · 2021 · Cited by 41 — For millions of people living in poverty, forest and tree resources not only provide food, fuel for cooking and heating, medicine, and shelter, but in some ...
3) DIVORCE
"When they calculated the cost in terms of increased utilities and unused housing space per capita, they discovered that divorce tosses out economy of scale. Among the findings:
In the United States alone in 2005, divorced households used 73 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity and 627 billion gallons of water that could have been saved had household size remained the same as that of married households. Thirty-eight million extra rooms were needed with associated costs for heating and lighting.
In the United States and 11 other countries such as Brazil, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Greece, Mexico and South Africa between 1998 and 2002, if divorced households had combined to have the same average household size as married households, there could have been 7.4 million fewer households in these countries.
The numbers of divorced households in these countries ranged from 40,000 in Costa Rica to almost 16 million in the United States around 2000.
The number of rooms per person in divorced households was 33 percent to 95 percent greater than in married households."
GET a job at MacDonalds
As our lifespans stretch to centuries, we should freeze embryos so we can spread parenthood thru the years. Have a baby. have hir grow up, then a century later have another baby, etc.
We do not have tech that will result in lifespans of centuries yet. Especially not tech that will maintain vigor past current old age.
Roberta's whole premise is cart-before-horse, "plan for railroads before we master steel alloy technology".
If relatively contemporaneous generational units struggle with persistence, less cohesive and contemporaneous units shouldn't just be assumed. That is, teen kids don't exactly see eye-to-eye with even their own 20-30-something parents now, let alone their own 60+ grandparents. The idea that they'll just get along with 300 yr. old parents and vice versa and that we should start freezing embryos in anticipation is stupid.
generational blurring is already occurring.
" . . . but too few people to sustain the progress that the world needs?"
Who says the world needs that particular kind of progress?
Neither of these discussants is talking about anything real , let alone about the same thing !!! We have too few people for NOW, forget tomorrow. ......And the particular kind we need will not be better for being made by less people !! AN absurd thing to think
You've made this baseless assertion at least twice now. Kindly provide your support for this conclusion. Otherwise, you are simply arguing facts that are not in evidence.
Rather, it is arguable, all the way around, whether we have too many, too few, or just enough. The only way, that I am currently aware of -- perhaps your evidence will convince me otherwise -- that one can assert too few people is when relying on tax cattle to fund bloated state programs. And in that case, the argument falls flat and the correct answer is to pare down the bloated state budget.
Your honor, notice that he entertains that e this conclusion might be defensible, showing that he has not the utter certainty of his position. I move that he stipulate that IF what I say is true that he must be wrong. That will move the argument to data
Data that he must now supply by the rules of debate and law
Thanks, your honor,long years of teaching college students
There is the problem that current high fertility societies are culturally different from the high tech liberal societies where fertility may have already crashed beyond the point of recovery. It may be that our current postmodern liberal culture is an evolutionary dead end that cannot sustain itself.
It may be that our current postmodern liberal culture is an evolutionary dead end that cannot sustain itself.
Not may.
Even if they all suddenly decide to spontaneously GYST, get to replacement population and pay down their debts, they would be definitively distinct from the last 40-some years of their own culture.
This is something the Reason has consistently failed to grasp when they keep/kept asking "Why have KKKONSERVUHTIVZ given up on liberalism?" Liberalism jumped (or began listing away) from rugged individualism to identity-based, nanny-state victimocracy six decades ago. Arguably, this is what was foreseen between Lincoln and Lee as the result of The Union liberating the slaves rather than slavery becoming socially unacceptable and/or the slaves liberating themselves.
What I find flabbergastong is that Bailey and the other writers do not seem to care that this society is a jenga tower that is becoming increasingly undermined by the consequences of its own rules will fall over, and something else will replace it. I doubt that they will much like what comes after.
What is the child (including infant) mortality rate in high fertility societies?
The majority of high fertility societies are third-world, or not far removed from third-world, countries. My hypothesis is that they have not progressed beyond the point where reproduction is still a numbers game where having more kids is absolutely necessary to ensure that one or two reach maturity and reproduce themselves.
Or, it may be that the culture has evolved to the point that it is self-sustaining without a growing population and that the population will stabilize at some point below current levels.
I would say your hypothesis is essentially correct. What you are describing as a "numbers game" is what has been described as "r/K selection theory" in ecology. This theory has been formally replaced by life history analysis but the essential observations remain.
Fecundity and fertility are two distinct quantities. Fecundity is the capacity or ability to produce offspring, fertility the actual success rate to produce viable offspring. And life history translates how fecundity and fertility are related to environmental stability. In an unstable environment, high fecundity with more offspring (r selection) are preferred to increase the chance of one or more getting to reproductive age. In a stable environment, k selection is the preferred reproductive strategy. Fecundity and fertility rates in k-selection are closely linked to the maximum carrying capacity of the environment. In such a situation, greater parental investment means a greater chance of having one (or more) offspring reach sexual maturity.
The analysis works well with animals that presumably do not practice contraception or otherwise choose or not choose to have offspring. The fertility rate is imposed by the environment. With humans, cultural forces or the presumably conscious ability to forestall having offspring may affect the fertility rate. But the question remains. If you find yourself living in a degraded environment - or as you put it a third world country - why would anyone make the conscious choice to have high numbers of children? The converse is true: in a stable environment why not have more offspring? I suspect that a formal life history analysis of humans may give a surprising answer: we are not so different from the thoughtless animals after all.
I
Just host mixed sex, unchaperoned slumber parties for persons 14-18 years old, with plenty of booze and no electronics or other forms of birth control.
There will be a population explosion.
I’m not cleaning up that mess.
Believe it or not, kids (and young adults) don't really "do" sex much these days. Sort of the whole problem. If a guy can watch some pretty fantastic porn anytime, anywhere and get just enough emotional connection from online interaction, why bother with rejection and all of the bullshit that comes along with actual human interactions?
The only places on the globe that are still reproducing above replacement level are those without unlimited access to technology. I don't think that's just a coincidence.
I think we can actually solve the problem long term with bioroid technology. What's better than porn and online interaction? Hot real girls who don't reject you!
Not really joking about this: The problem has gone far enough, and will go far enough before governments get serious about solving it, that the solution is inevitably going to be some kind of Brave New World baby factories. So maybe we should be gaming out what sort of baby factories would best preserve an individualist society.
Oh no! They sky is falling! The sky is falling!
You're asserting a problem without identifying what the problem is. Quite frankly, a declining population is only a problem for parasitic states that rely on tax cattle to fund bloated programs.
aren't you the clueless one....
That is the high abortion group
I was reading this on my phone and saw an ad for the Southern Poverty Law Center. I know that Reason does not fully control electronic ads but can't they make some restrictions? This is like an ad for the Federalist at Jacobin magazine.
We're you reading a Sullum article? Maybe Jacob in magazine got read appropriately for the content and the ads pushed were a function of that.
An ad for Reason in Jacobin might have an effect as salubrious as one for the works of Hegel in The Federalist.
Who, "How do you do, fellow kids" indeed!
Well done, Reason, you continue to remain 7 years behind the curve!
I think you mean "too few people to fund the government schemes that were always dependent on a pyramid scheme"
If population fell an order of magnitude, there'd still be more people around than at the height of Athenian democracy and the Renaissance combined.
Considering what they accomplished without benefit of communications systems faster than a horse, let alone AI, I suspect our extinction may be indefinitely delayed.
Dumb as ever....we differ structurally from then in HUGE WAYS
Our most populous countries have female gendercide giving disparities in the male -=-female population by tens of millions. And BTW that means the most violent cohort of all (unmarried males in the marriage age range) will increase violence, and war and social ills of almost every type --- because in almost all those areas unmarried males have always led Read George Gilder
Plus we have tremendous divorce complications Divorce is at about the 50% level now. When Brokaw wrote his Greatest Generation -- -I heard him say this myself--- he asked what they biggest change was that the interviewees had seen in their life. It wasn't computers or moon landing , it was (overwhelmingly he says) DIVORCE
"the number of rooms per person in divorced households was 33–95% greater than in married households. In the United States (U.S.) in 2005, divorced households spent 46% and 56% more on electricity and water per person than married households. Divorced households in the U.S. could have saved more than 38 million rooms, 73 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, and 627 billion gallons of water in 2005 alone if their resource-use efficiency had been comparable to married households. Furthermore, U.S. households that experienced divorce used 42–61% more resources per person than before their dissolution."
Either one of these destroys your vision.
and if you ever read national security periodicals this is the problem most associated with female gendercide, the fact that eg China could send 10 million males against anyone because these are guys with little hope of marriage anyway. and there loss in way be death would HELP the parity of the sexes.
Considering what they accomplished without benefit of communications systems faster than a horse, let alone AI, I suspect our extinction may be indefinitely delayed.
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting "extinction". They're suggesting "collapse". Those are two different things. If society ends up falling back to... you know... technology and healthcare standards of the Athenian democracy, most people would be horrified. Imagine Umbrage feminism trying to operate in a world without the means to regulate menstruation.
"Either one of these destroys your vision."
Of what?
The existential threat posed by the loss of:
"38 million rooms, 73 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, and 627 billion gallons of water" ??
you added 'existential threat" I only stand by the data , which states that environmental losses from divorce eclipse all others.
Environmental impacts of divorce
Eunice Yu and Jianguo Liu jliu@panda.msu.eduAuthors Info & Affiliations
Edited by Paul R. Ehrlich, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, and approved October 30, 2007
December 18, 2007
104 (51) 20629-20634
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0707267104
What a load of crap. Birth rates are falling (in the developed "western world") because we have advanced socially and technologically to the point where couples no longer need to have a dozen children to ensure two reach maturity, they no longer need six-plus kids to work the family farm, and etcetera. Prodigious reproduction was a survival tactic.
It was necessary to have a large number of kids, playing the odds, to get one or two to survive to reproductive age. It is no longer necessary for survival (of the species) as more and more children survive childhood than ever before in human history.
The "depopulation bomb" is only a problem when the State relies on tax cattle to fund giveaways and runaway spending. The fewer tax cattle, the greater the burden on the individual and the less the individual will support State theft/redistribution.
Innovation will still happen as fewer people learn to do more with... fewer people. For other issues, depopulation is a boon. Fewer people means less competition for housing, food, and energy. Sure, barring innovation, productivity will decline as there will be fewer people working, but fewer people also means fewer people consuming. Ten billion people levels of production simply won't be required to support seven point five billion people.
Which shows that you don not even understand the nature of the problem, or how far down the path of no return some countries are.
What problem? Doomsayers and sky-is-falling criers keep saying there's a problem, but aside from some argument towards "fewer tax cattle," never define the problem.
I aver that, aside from dysfunctional parasitic governments reliant on feeding off their population (i.e. "tax cattle") having to struggle with a shrinking herd, there is no problem. The doomsaying amounts to little more than appeals to emotion, nihilistic hand-wringing, and a ton of what-about?-ism.
Rather, lower birthrates signals that, for a substantial percentage of the world's population, conditions are secure enough that would-be parents don't need to shotgun blast a multitude of children into the world to maximize their chances of successfully rearing one or two. And that security -- greater access to resources, better medical care and technology, and etcetera -- to rely fewer births for reproductive success, is a good thing.
This lacks any data at all.
They aren't having less kids they are HAVING NO KIDS
In 2023, more than half of American households were childless
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-has-the-structure-of-american-households-changed-over-time/
Simply farcically and hyperbolically disingenuous.
Your quoted statistic -- "In 2023, more than half of American households were childless" -- is absurdly misleading since it doesn't break down the number of households that had children and either (a.) lost them tragically or (b.) successfully launched them into the world.
Lets look at another statistic for 2023: "The provisional number of births for the United States in 2023 was 3,591,328..." In 2023, people in the United States had three and a half million children.
Americans are having fewer children, but they're certainly not "HAVING NO KIDS [sic]."
The problem herein is not decrease in population, it's that productive intelligent persons are choosing not to have kids because they'd rather enjoy life than risk the liabilities of kids and the likely possibility that those kids won't be worth a damn, AND that the worthless of our society, who don't give a fuck about responsibility, pop out kids with abandon with little chance of them being worth a damn. Nobody wants to say it, but the solution is a money incentive to the latter group to be spayed or neutered. We don't need more people, we need to up the ratio of quality people.
And before anyone starts shouting, I'm not necessarily talking about the poor. I'm talking about people who don't work, don't care to work, are dumb as a pile of fucking rocks and/or live off the government teat.
There’s a movie about this.
DOes Marc not see he must be in one of those categories 🙂
This is all based on the most dubious of foundations, that Marc is or even knows what a quality person is.
You are necessarily talking about the poor , if you have even a scintilla of education
"The prevalence of abortion facilities
within minority communities serves as a
major contributor to the rate in which
black women obtain abortions.
Accordingly, black women are 5 times
more likely to have an abortion than white
women. A recent study released by
Protecting Black Life, an outreach of Life
Issues Institute concluded that, “79% of
Planned Parenthood’s surgical abortion
facilities are strategically located within
walking distance of African and/or
Hispanic communities."
AND
": “Since the number of current living blacks
(in the U.S.) is 31 million, the missing 10 million represents
an enormous loss for, without abortion, America’s black
community would now number 41 million persons. It would
be 35 percent larger than it is currently. Abortion has swept
through the black community cutting down every fourth
member.”"
LET me guess, you are not poor, not Black , not Hispanic, not a woman. NO, I am not a clairvoyant , I just know a damn bigot when I smell one.
"Spears and Geruso say they do 'not pretend to offer the Solution. There is no Solution with a capital S. Not yet.'"
Not ever. As Thomas Sowell has pointed out, there are no solutions [with or without a capital S], only trade-offs.
Thomas Sowell is 95, I will miss him, never got the Nobel Prize like say Paul Krugman, famous spouter of pure shit
NY Times’ Paul Krugman says ‘inflation is over’ — if you exclude food, gas and rent
By Ariel Zilber
Published Oct. 13, 2023,
"What if the challenge for humanity’s future is not too many people on a crowded planet, but too few people to sustain the progress that the world needs?"
And what "progress" is that, prithee?
Okay, this situation is more and more frequent and it would be interesting to investigate:Why are both sides in arguments increasingly wrong ?
What he calls progress and you call progress is IRRELEVANT
calling the inevitable move into the future PROgress or REgress doesn't change the 'gress' part, we ARE going into the future.
This is a simple matter of physics. We simply can't grow our population forever on this planet, even if we wiped out every other living organism to do so. Yes more people lead to more ideas, etc, but why do you need to have all those people here at the same time??
More people also equal more consumption, more waste, more pollution, and less wildlife and wild areas of the world. Look at the average living standards of a person in crowded Tokyo or Hong Kong, where apartments are often so tiny they are like tubes, vs the vast living space of even a poor person living in a trailer in Wyoming.
And the bigger problem is that population is growing fastest in the countries that can afford it the least, which means increasing pressures on wealthy nations to take in even more migrants, an idea that becomes less popular every year.
Paul Ehrlich's book "The Population Bomb" was the victim of bad timing. His predictions would have come true if it not for the technological advances of the Green Revolution, something Ehrlich couldn't have forseen. But the Green Revolution has stalled out - while crop yields are still impressive, so is fresh water use, and water tables are falling everywhere, particularly in the Western US. The entire Aral Sea disappeared because of human consumption! And today, too many Africans rely on underground water that simply isn't being replenished. It's not sustainable.
THIS IS ALL BULLSHIT. IF SOMEONE CARES TO FIND OUT THEY WILL SEE WHAT A MASS OF FALSEHOOD, BAD REASONING , AND DOWNRIGHT UNDISGUISED MISANTHROPY This is.
This is Hitler stuff.
That well reasoned response has certainly changed my views. What further proof do I need than a rando putting everything in caps and then saying "this is Hitler stuff"??
OK, I'm with you John.
How many should we kill, and who should we start with?
Africa, right? It's always Africa with guys like you.