Did ICE Deport This Guy Over a Real Madrid Tattoo?

We can't be sure, and that's why due process matters.

On Jerce Reyes Barrios' arm, there is a tattoo of a soccer ball with a crown and the Spanish word Dios.

Is that proof that Reyes Barrios is a dangerous member of an infamous Venezuelan drug gang, or merely that he's a fan of the Spanish soccer team Real Madrid?

That's the sort of question that an immigration court might be able to settle. It won't get the chance. Reyes Barrios was one of about 200 people deported to El Salvador, without due process, last weekend.

In a sworn statement filed in federal court on Wednesday, an attorney representing Reyes Barrios claims that American immigration officials misunderstood the meaning behind her client's tattoos and took social media posts out of context in order to justify arresting and ultimately deporting Reyes Barrios.

"Counsel and family have lost all contact with him and have no information regarding his whereabouts or condition," wrote Linette Tobin, the attorney.

According to Tobin's statement, Reyes Barrios left Venezuela after being arrested for protesting against Nicolás Maduro's rule. Upon reaching the U.S. border, he applied for asylum and was being kept in custody ahead of a court hearing that was scheduled for April 17.

A hearing like that is meant to determine whether someone like Reyes Barrios qualifies for asylum—that is, was he fleeing a foreign regime that had arrested and tortured him, as his attorney claims, or was he part of what the Trump administration has called an "invasion" of the United States by the Tren de Aragua gang?

Part of that hearing might have focused on his tattoo of a soccer ball with a crown and the word Dios. Government attorneys could have argued why those symbols might connect Reyes Barrios to the gang and would (one hopes) be expected also to present more significant evidence for why he should be denied lawful entry to the country.

Tobin could then refute those claims with her own evidence. As she explained in the sworn statement filed on Wednesday, Reyes Barrios was a former professional soccer player and a fan of Real Madrid. That explains the tattoo. More importantly, she claims that Reyes Marrios had "a police clearance from Venezuela indicating no criminal record, multiple employment letters, [and] a declaration from the tattoo artist who rendered the tattoo."

A court could then weigh those claims and come to a decision about Reyes Barrios' status. That decision might be made with imperfect information and likely would not satisfy everyone—but that should be preferable to the nakedly unjust and inhumane treatment of Reyes Barrios and dozens of others who were on those deportation flights, which appear to have taken off in defiance of a judicial order.

Ignoring the due process rights of asylum seekers might allow the Trump administration to deport more migrants more quickly, but it grants far too much power to immigration police and will inevitably lead to innocent people being caught up in Trump's effort to deport violent criminals. No one should end up in an El Salvadorian prison because a cop misunderstood a tattoo.

Comments

[Spiritus Mundi]

Poor Boehm.

[Your Therapist]

Since his psychotic break from chugging down too many genocidal Zionist’s ball sacs, I’m not sure Trump feels he needs any reasons to do just about anything.

[MWAocdoc]

"That's the sort of question that an immigration court might be able to settle."

Yet another red herring to distract us from the real question here: did the Congress give the Executive branch the authority to deport non-citizens or not? It's way too late to question whether the Congress SHOULD have granted the President that authority. It's way too late to question whether the Constitution allows that kind of legislation and that kind of authority. The Executive branch is using the authority that it believes Congress gave to it to deport non-citizens. No doubt the current spate of "temporary injunctions" will play out in the labyrinthine Middle Ages court system the US burdened with and eventually maybe the Supreme Court will make some kind of half-assed ruling that settles nothing as it usually does while Trump mostly ignores the courts if he's actually serious and, perhaps, triggers a Constitutional crisis if we're lucky. It's unclear whether the Judiciary can enforce ANY of its decisions in the current environment where they long ago ceded any claim to impartiality or constitutionality. By definition the Executive branch enforces the laws - who enforces judicial orders?

[MollyGodiva]

None of what you said is relevant. Immigrants are owned due process no matter what authority the President thinks he has.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

And he got it. Another wannabe lawyer who doesn't know what the legal term "due process" means, and you even flood Volokh with your ignorance and ought to know better.

[Mother's Lament - (Here's your attention, Sarckles)]

Oh wow! Does TonyGodiva really have the guts to go be retarded on Volokh?

Jeepers.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

He sadly does.

[windycityattorney]

"And he got it." No, actually, he didn't. Hence the pending litigation right now. He arrived at the border, applied for asylum, was detained then sent to the Salvadoran gulag.

If you think Presidents signing executive orders means 3rd parties have received all due process rights they are due then you are simply wrong. The Court will decide the legal question. Not you or Molly and given how much the DOJ is fumbling the case at this point they must be worried.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

They have the due process guaranteed by the agreement they made for visa or green card. They is all.

You've been explained this multiple times.

If they don't agree they don't have to apply.

[redfish]

If hes known to be here illegally the government has a right to deport him no matter what but due process in this case would be useful to determine if he's sent back home to Venezuela or to CECOT in El Salvador where he's treated like a terrorist. Bukele of course says he pinky swear promises to release people back to Venezuela who they determined are not gang members. Of course El Salvador is still in an extended declared state of emergency where they don't follow normal rules of due process either.

The steps Bukele took were rational -- after all, gangs in South America are like occupying armies -- but at some point when the war is "won" you have to end martial law and adopt some normal rules of due process.

Trump seems to want to imitate Bukele's model, treat these gang members like soldiers in an army, and that's what the whole thing with invoking the Alien Enemies Act seems to be about. But just like the martial law conditions in El Salvador have to end at some point, it's a problem to create indefinite wartime policy in the US just on the President's way so that we're in a war.

Trump supporters should know better that this is a problem from how Jan 6 defendants were treated, and also say from things like the freakout over Pete Hegseth's tattoos, where the army wanted to treat him as a white nationalist because of harmless tattoos. I'm happy to suppose that Trump is dotting the i's and crossing the t's, but it's still bad precedent.

And yes BTW I agree that the activist judges are a problem, and as a whole what they're doing to impede Trump's policies are inappropriate, but conservatives are picking a bad case as a target IMO. Maybe it's good politically, because most people agree none of these people should be here, but there are legitimate issues with the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act and also with CECOT.

[Riva]

What garbage. As if this tattoo is the only detail in this case. I suspect there is just a shitload of bad conduct, gang associations, and probably more than a few weapons in this illegal's file as well.

[Medulla Oblongata]

The caveat there is doing some heavy lifting in the headline.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/many-alleged-gang-members-deported-by-trump-didnt-have-criminal-records-in-us-ice/ar-AA1BatWX

Cerna wrote that some of the men have been convicted or arrested for crimes in the U.S., including for murder, assault, harassment, and drug offenses, writing that ICE personnel "carefully vetted each individual alien to ensure they were in fact members of TdA."

To determine whether a noncitizen was a "member of TdA," he said law enforcement allegedly used victim testimony, financial transactions, computer checks, and other "investigative techniques."

"ICE did not simply rely on social media posts, photographs of the alien displaying gang-related hand gestures, or tattoos alone," Cerna said.

According to Cerna, a review of ICE databases suggested that "numerous individuals removed" had been arrested or convicted outside of the U.S. At least five of the men were subject to INTERPOL notices for alleged crimes including rape, kidnapping, child, abduction, corruption, and possession of illegal firearms.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...None of what you said is relevant..."

You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lying lefty shit.

[NM Dave]

I've been stunned at the number of constitutionally illiterate people posting on this site. Reason is a Libertarian advocate, and most of the hang-em-high types praising Trump, who is as far from a Libertarian as is Bernie Sanders, are merely echoing the MAGA cultist view that the constitution doesn't apply to anyone but citizens, a naked lie. This site is no place for MAGA propaganda, but apparently it is becoming so.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

The problem I have with Reason on this particular subject is their insistence that the administration is bypassing some undefined due process when they have clearly articulated the authority they are using. If Reason believes that authority is somehow illegitimate they can certainly make that case and I might agree. But due process only requires that similarly situated individuals are entitled to equal application of law. Citizens and non citizens are not similarly situated and it's dishonest to claim otherwise.

[windycityattorney]

No, Reason writers can disagree that the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act applies to Venezuelans either in a drug gang or not. Its a rarely used law reserved for actual wars and nation state actors. Not made up wars like the "war on drugs." It's a huge escalation with massive ramifications. Along with Trump declaring cartels terrorists. That is also a huge escalation of the war on drugs - which last I knew, most card carrying libertarians opposed.

NOT calling this shit out would be abdication. Just because the most prolific commenters here are racist MAGA fools doesn't change anything.

[CountmontyC]

Define the due process required under the relevant laws. Simply shouting "DUE PROCESS" is meaningless.

[Medulla Oblongata]

This! Due process means that if the law requires a hearing, then you need to get a hearing. If the law doesn't require a hearing, then not getting a hearing is not a due process violation.

[windycityattorney]

Wrong. The US SUP CT has held that people subject to the Aliens Enemies Act can challenge a) whether the predicate acts required to trigger the Act have been met (or still exist) and b) whether they are a member of the class covered by the Act.

So, the proclamation at issue here targets Tren De Aragua. Not every single Venezuelan is a member of Tren De Aragua so someone being declared an enemy alien could challenge their designation. In court. (which is happening now in Boasburg's court in D.C.)

Also, its possible that the Alien Enemies Act can't be invoked or was incorrectly invoked as its a subset of Congress' war times powers. Congress has the constitutional duty to declare war. Congress has not declared war against Venezuela, Tren de Agua or anybody. The President made a proclamation that Tren De Aragua is like a nation state but that is questionable at best. But regardless, whether or not the Act was properly invoked is also subject to judicial review. If the Act itself was improperly invoked, then deportations without review/hearings would be in violation of other immigration statutes as well as 5th amendment due process. Unconstitutional acts are void.

[James K. Polk]

Yes, they are, which is why asylum seekers should not be allowed to enter the US while their applications are being considered. Nobody is entitled to immigrate to the US, and there should be no requirement for due process in denying their asylum claims. But once they've been let it, they get some rights.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

This isn't about simple deportation however. This is also about Trump's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, and his claim that these gangs are engaged in "irregular warfare", and that this is the basis for not merely deporting these individuals, but sending them to a third-world black site prison.

It is one thing to send an illegal immigrant back to his native country. It is quite another to send him to a gulag.

[XM]

It's wrong to send criminals back to the prison of their homelands? That's odd.

Asylums are meant for those who are fleeing systemic persecution. Most of the "refugees" in this country are economic migrants. They flooded the border to apply for asylum as a backdoor entry. And Biden just ignored it and kept funding it. Ridiculous. Name a another country that would allow millions of people to attain residency status by claiming to be refugees from.... Nicaragua. Crooked place for sure, but a site for genocide and war?

Even liberal outlets are admitting that ICE is deporting a HELL of a lot of criminals. People who rape minors, women, and deal in drug trafficking. Obviously you'll zero in on the exceptions, but the American people can see what the danger the democrat party put them in. They, and by extension you, deserve to lose at every chance.

[NM Dave]

Your argument against due process is noted with amusement. Let's send your wife on the next plane out and see if details like due process matter to you then.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

People like you are why this state has gone downhill so severely of late.

[DesigNate]

He made no such argument.

[James K. Polk]

I guess you don't understand due process. No one is arguing that it is wrong to deport criminals. The argument is that you can't deport people without a hearing before an immigration judge.

Reason isn't a MAGA mouthpiece, it's a libertarian-themed magazine. Civil liberties are paramount to libertarians, that's why they call themselves libertarians.

[Medulla Oblongata]

"The argument is that you can't deport people without a hearing before an immigration judge."

But you can! Perhaps not in all cases, but in at least some cases there is no right to a hearing before an immigration judge.

--------

In 1996, as part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA), Congress established streamlined deportation procedures that allow the government to deport (or “remove”) certain noncitizens from the United States without a hearing before an immigration judge. Two of these procedures, “expedited removal” and “reinstatement of removal,” allow immigration officers to serve as both prosecutor and judge—often investigating, charging, and making a decision all within the course of one day.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Oh also:
Many of those deported were not actually "illegal immigrants", they had pending asylum cases. One of them, in fact, was picked up by ICE as he was *following the law* and checking in with his local ICE office as he was instructed to do.

[Mother's Lament - (Here's your attention, Sarckles)]

"Many of those deported were not actually "illegal immigrants", they had pending asylum cases."

Hahahahahaha... Oh Jeffy.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Can we add perjury charges to the ones with asylum cases when asylum is rejected and the claimant simply lied on the form?

[Vernon Depner]

Making false statements on an asylum application is already a specific federal crime.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Then we should damn sure be using those charges as often as possible to disabuse people of the notion that they can lie and try to claim asylum because they were told that's a loophole.

[Dillinger]

>>due process

do you understand you are a tool of the One-Worlders with this or are you an unaware tool of the One-Worlders?

[InsaneTrollLogic (On The List!)]

Hadn’t seen an article from you, Eric. We were hoping, beyond hope, that you’d been downsized.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Sigh. Was so hoping.

With the number of bullshit Vox leaning articles in the last week, was hoping it was an audition.

[Vernon Depner]

Did ICE Deport This Guy Over a Real Madrid Tattoo?

No. Next question?

[MollyGodiva]

How do you know?

[Stupid Government Tricks]

How do you? Go on, prove you know, otherwise we don't have any way of judging how you can tell if his answer would be the one you were hoping for?

[MollyGodiva]

Without a due process hearing we have no way of knowing.

[sarcasmic]

Trump defenders reject due process because it's leftist.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

And you don't know what due process is either.

Here's a simple assignment:

1. Write down your idea of what due process is. Shouldn't take long.

2. Compare to what happened and explain why there was no due process.

[MollyGodiva]

Due process in this context is the government must present their evidence in front of a neutral judge and the immigrant had the opportunity to have counsel and present their own evidence. None of that happened.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

You are still wrong Margaret.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Nope. Due process means following the procedures laid down by laws as interpreted by the courts. FISA courts provide due process of law, and if you don't like it, well, too bad, you statists voted for it.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Then you truly have no idea what "due process" means.

[sarcasmic]

According to the Constitution "due process" means that there has to be a process, like going to court and stuff, before someone is deprived life, liberty or property.

According the the article the guy never got to go to court, so there was no due process.

According to you it doesn't matter because the government can do whatever it wants to people you don't like.

You're just a Jesse sock that pretends to understand economics and gets into fake arguments with yourself.

[Mother's Lament - (Here's your attention, Sarckles)]

Going to "court" isn't necessarily part of due process. Especially when you're not a citizen. Like me.

If they wanted, the next time I go south to visit family ICE could turn my butt around and send me back for whatever reason suits them. No court needed and that would be due process.

I suspect that you were letting the "and stuff" do all the heavy lifting for you though.

Also, "Jesse Sock", lol. It's still to early to be this drunk, Sarckles. SGT and Jesse have been having rhetorical fisticuffs for weeks now.

[LoneSnark]

They were not denied a border crossing. They were flown to a prison. And normally it would be a judge that determines if someone is or isn't legally here.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Do you know why? Because Venezuela once again denied repatriation of the criminals they exported.

They would be in holding either here or in ES. They have zero right to wander around the US freely.

Unlike you, I don't subordinate US immigration law yo the whims of Venezuela.

They will be repatriation as soon as Venezuela allows it.

Fuck off.

And normally it would be a judge that determines if someone is or isn't legally here.

This is also false. Customs officials make this determination all the time.

You're demanding millions of judges to determine the status of millions of immigrants. Lol.

[Mother's Lament - (Here's your attention, Sarckles)]

If Canada wouldn't take me back that's where I would be going. You guys are basically making up new rules now.

[sarcasmic]

Judges have been ruling against Trump. That invalidates the entire branch of government. Trump is king, baby. He does what he wants.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

They will be repatriation as soon as Venezuela allows it.

lol Jesse doesn't really believe this

the US government is PAYING the El Salvadoran dictator to house the migrants there. He's not going to send the migrants anywhere, why would he?

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Immigration is also closer to civil than criminal.

Civil discussions can include non trials such as arbitration.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Show where the Constitution says that.

Fifth Amendment:

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

Fourteenth Amendment:

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

And that's it. The Constitution does not say any more. The rest is up to judges and legislators. That's why I say the Rule of Law is a fig leaf covering up Rule of Men.

[sarcasmic]

So "due process" means "Trump doesn't like what he said, kick him out" if that's what Trump says. Got it.

[DesigNate]

I mean that is technically a process, which is what you initially said the constitution meant by it.

(Yes, I’m being glib here.)

[sarcasmic]

Oh, hey there Canadian fucklips. You're on mute for now. That's how much I want your attention. And if you can get the rest of the people I have on mute to mute me, I'll be so happy I might not run my hand between my sweaty ass cheeks before I shake yours.

[Mother's Lament - (Here's your attention, Sarckles)]

I'm not on mute because that would ruin all the precious attention you so desperately crave. That's the whole reason you troll here.

You've never put anyone on mute yet. You need engagement too badly. You only claim to so you don't have to answer questions when you're caught lying. Like above.

(Also, post the list)

[Stupid Government Tricks]

You don't know what due process is. You're shameless enough to showcase your ignorance on Volokh too.

[Moonrocks]

Betteridge's law.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Because it doesn't actually matter if he has a non valid immigration status.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

This story is a great demonstration of my maxim that any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word "no." The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bullshit, and don't actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it.

A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious or over-sold. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Again we have an attorney arguing about a tattoo and social media posts purportedly taken out of context. Really can't draw a conclusion from this but Eric does anyway. Bailey claimed a few weeks ago that a measles outbreak was the fault of anti vaccer RFK and RFK came out a week later telling everybody to get their kids vaccinated. Reason really needs to back off on the speculation because it just looks like propaganda at this point.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Did RFK cause the measles outbreak in Ontario Canada recently too?

[JFree]

He wasn't deported because of the tattoo. The tattoo was merely evidence that he probably calls soccer football and watches it on TV with a foreigner yelling GOOOOAAL. THAT is the reason he was deported.

[sarcasmic]

Have you ever read the Constitution? It doesn't give rights to non-citizens. So all your nonsense about "due process" is nonsense, because the government doesn't give rights to non-citizens. Rights are a creation of government, and government can take rights away if it wants. That's what every leftist says, and what Trump defenders now say as well. Except the 2A. Trump defenders like that one. But all those other freedoms are a product of government to Trump defenders and leftists. No rights are inherent say leftists and Trump defenders. We only have the rights that are given to us by government according to leftists and Trump defenders.

[MollyGodiva]

Constitutional rights apply to everyone in the US, from citizen to illegal immigrant.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Not in the same manner. Yours is the equivalent of arguing that gravity applies to everybody. It sure does, but the effects depend on whether you're sitting down, jumped out of an airplane, or are in orbit.

[MollyGodiva]

Yes in the same manner. The whole point of Constitutional rights is that they apply to everyone equally.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

The actual supreme court, not your reddit page, disagrees. Rights can be limited through agreement, such as terms in a visa or for a greencard.

[MollyGodiva]

Plyler v. Doe.

"Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a "person" in any ordinary sense of that term. This Court's prior cases recognizing that illegal aliens are "persons" protected by the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which Clauses do not include the phrase "within its jurisdiction," cannot be distinguished on the asserted ground that persons who have entered the country illegally are not "within the jurisdiction" of a State even if they are present within its boundaries and subject to its laws. Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory"

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

That case deals with criminal status, not violating terms of a visa retard.

Stop reading reddit. It makes you more retarded.

Did you know that an immigrant can lose visa and be returned for mere suspicion of drug use? Of course not. Because you're a fucking idiot.

Criminal rights are not the same as residency rights, which illegals do not have you dumb fucking moron.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...Stop reading reddit. It makes you more retarded..."

Not possible.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Again, you do not understand what "due process" is.

[sarcasmic]

Wrong. Trump defenders, like leftists, reject the concept of natural rights. They agree that all rights come from government, and are subject to the whims of whoever is in power. They completely and totally oppose natural rights. To leftists and Trump defenders, all rights come from government.

That's one of the many reasons why leftists and Trump defenders absolutely hate libertarians, along with James Madison and the founders of this nation.

[MollyGodiva]

What do you see as "natural rights"?

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

He has no idea. He has just seen jeff screaming it lately.

[sarcasmic]

Property, speech, self defense, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, basically anything you want a long as you don't hurt other people first and leave their stuff alone.

[DesigNate]

Unless you’re advocating for 0 borders (whether out of some anarchist fantasy or One World Government nightmare), in 2025 no one has a natural right to immigrate to another country.

If we could get the fucking species off this damn rock though? Damn.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

And so does gravity. Now explain how you get different results for different people.

[allblues]

Really? Take one of your undocumented Democrat pals to your local gun shop and let him try to buy a gun. Make sure he admits on the 4473 that he is unlawfully in the country and observe the denial of Constitutional rights.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Remember when Republicans tried to pass a "gun control" measure that would require ICE notification if an illegal alien tried to purchase a firearm (presumably when they admit on the 4473 that they are unlawfully in the country) and Democrats almost all voted against it?

[Vernon Depner]

What rights they have while we are allowing them to be in our country is a separate issue from whether we allow them to remain here. No foreigner has a right to remain in our country without the permission of our government.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

What an unfathomably ignorant comment.

Reyes Barrios was one of about 200 people deported to El Salvador, without due process, last weekend.

"Due process" has a very specific legal meaning, and you toss it around as if you think it means something you want it to mean.

It means the law was followed, as interpreted by courts.

* If the court says your house can be confiscated and sold for missing $50 of your property tax, and you get none of the excess profit received, congratulations, you had your due process.

* If the court says the city can eminent domain your house and sell it to a private developer, congratulations, you had your due process.

* If the state bungles your criminal murder trial, then lets your victims sue your ass into bankruptcy in a civil trial in spite of what ordinary people think is double jeopardy, congratulations, you had your due process.

* If Congress hands off their responsibilities to the President, and the courts think that's just hunky dory, congratulations, you had your due process.

Eric Boehm is an ignorant idiot who likes big government only as long as it gives him what he wants. Eric Boehm wouldn't recognize due process if all 9 Supreme Court justices served it to him on a platter.

[sarcasmic]

At this point I'm convinced that you're a Jesse sock that pretends to understand economics.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

This is a rather pedantic argument. I think we are all aware that the law, as it currently stands, is heavily slanted against foreigners. Evidently, the law permits any foreigner to be deported for basically any reason based on Marco Rubio's "because I said so" flimsy pretext that it 'impacts national security' or somesuch. That is what the law defines as 'due process' in this case. Yes yes, we get it. What I and others complain about, is that this laughable 'due process' does not represent any *meaningful* due process that we might imagine *ought* to apply to individuals that are in these situations.

Should the Secretary of State, or anyone really, have the legal authority to kick out any foreigner for basically any reason whatsoever, with zero possibility for appeals or review by any court? If you think that this is right and proper, then just say so. If not, then we agree that the current 'due process' as it appears in the law needs to change.

[Vernon Depner]

Should the Secretary of State, or anyone really, have the legal authority to kick out any foreigner for basically any reason whatsoever, with zero possibility for appeals or review by any court?

The law spells out the reasons why the Secretary of State may order a foreigner to leave. If you want that law changed, write your Congressmen.

[Medulla Oblongata]

"What I and others complain about, is that this laughable 'due process' does not represent any *meaningful* due process that we might imagine *ought* to apply to individuals that are in these situations."

Nah, I'm pretty sure Molly, Sarc, and Eric all think "due process" means something far more magical and are not at all trying to stake out your nuanced position out there balancing on the head of a pin.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So, just a reminder:

This is the actual text of the first part of the Alien Enemies Act:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/21

Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government, being of the age of fourteen years and upward, who shall be within the United States and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies.

Emphasis added. There is no "declared war" between the US and Venezuela. It has only been invoked three other times, all of which were times of "declared war". It was invoked in WW2, and that was the legal basis for the internment of Japanese-Americans, that the government later apologized for.

Oh but you might claim "but there's an 'invasion' or 'predatory incursion' by Tren de Aragula!" The law says that there has to be a 'predatory incursion' from a foreign nation or government. Tren de Aragula is not a government.

[sarcasmic]

Only leftists think the law means what it says.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Trump signed a piece of paper that said Tren de Aragula met the conditions of the Alien Enemies Act. That's all that's needed, really, and any judge who disagrees is a corrupt left-wing hack who should be impeached.

[sarcasmic]

His lawyers wrote it up, and as we all know lawyers are the most honest people in society.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

It was invoked in WW2, and that was the legal basis for the internment of Japanese-Americans, that the government later apologized for.

Oh, one more thing:

As we are all constantly reminded, it was a DEMOCRAT who conducted the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans. And this is, we are told, because DEMOCRATS are racist pieces of shit.

So if Trump is doing the same thing, what does that make him?

[JeremyR]

Japanese Americans were citizens of the US. That's why it was bad. They were interred just because of their ancestry.

Deporting foreign criminals is different because a) they aren't citizens and b) are criminals.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Jeff loves his false equivalence from ignorance as much as he does lying.

[CharlieG]

Didn't the potus declare a predatory incursion by the Venezuelan government by sending TdA gang members to the US? That satisfies the declaration of predatory incursion by a foreign nation or government.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Tren de Aragula is not a "foreign nation or government".

[Stupid Government Tricks]

The claim is that they were sent here by the Venezuelan government, and considering they seem like pretty good candidates for prison in most countries, it makes one wonder what kind of country let them escape and find their way thousands of miles north for no particular reason.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The claim is that they were sent here by the Venezuelan government

Is this claim true or false? Who gets to decide? Maybe there should be some third party that evaluates the evidence for this claim and makes a ruling. We might even call this procedure 'due process'.

[sarcasmic]

I'm convinced that SGT is a Jesse sock that pretends do understand economics. Because, with that one exception, he's a Trump defender through and through. There is nothing he won't excuse. Except on economics.

[DesigNate]

Their writing and argumentation styles are totally different.

That’s like when people accuse you of running SQRLSY as a sock.

[Iwanna Newname]

Who gets to decide? Well, Trump has his opinion, and the judiciary may have a second opinion. Okay, let's find a third party. Hmmm....How about Congress? Well, it passed a law that's never been repealed or overturned for over 200 years that says " the President makes public proclamation of the event, ". Let's let Congress be that third party, and until it decides to repeal that law, or modify it, or impeach the president, let's defer to his judgement to implement the law as the people elected him to do.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Left out some bits:

Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government, or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event, all natives, citizens, denizens, or subjects of the hostile nation or government, being of the age of fourteen years and upward, who shall be within the United States and not actually naturalized, shall be liable to be apprehended, restrained, secured, and removed as alien enemies.

[XM]

It's almost as if the founding fathers anticipated that hostile governments could find ways to invade the nation without declaring war.

[Stupid Government Tricks]

Interesting that it includes BOTH "nation" and "government". Evidently they are not the same. Whatever could be the difference?

Hamas, Hezbollah are included, and they are not recognized governments. I wonder how they got included.

TdA is alleged to be backed by the Venezuelan government. Could that have some bearing? Interesting to ponder how such gang members escaped from Venezuela prisons to come to the US. How did that happen? Especially from such a socialist paradise as Venezuela.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Just to point something out here. Based on his proclamation, Trump is claiming the authority to get rid of *every single Venezuelan* (over age 14) living here, even ones here legally, even ones who have absolutely nothing to do with Tren de Aragua and are in fact fleeing Venezuelan state repression and gang violence. Do you believe that Trump ought to do this? If so, why?

[XM]

How many legal Venezuelans did he deport so far? Aren't they naturalized?

I'm an immigrant. I live among them, and offhandedly know some who are illegal. None of them were deported. Unless you have a criminal record or prior court order to be deported, the odds of ICE deporting on the street is zero.

[Alphonse Gaston]

So we couldn't deport any al-Qaeda members, bc al-Qaeda is not a government? Assuming for the sake of argument that destroying the World Trade Center was a "predatory incursion"?

[Vernon Depner]

or any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government, and the President makes public proclamation of the event,

That is the situation we are in regarding South American gangs and the Mexican crime cartels.

[Medulla Oblongata]

"Whenever there is a declared war between the United States and any foreign nation or government"

"any invasion or predatory incursion is perpetrated, attempted, or threatened against the territory of the United States by any foreign nation or government"

are two distinct things.

[CharlieG]

In the US criminal justice system gang affiliation isn't determined by a judge. It is determined by the tattoos one has and who they associate with, and the members of law enforcement who specialize in gangs are the ones who make that determination. Why should it be different for illegal immigrants who have ties to foreign gangs? Why give cover for illegal immigrants?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

It's only partially about them. It is also about US.

Some of us see that when the government is permitted to violate their rights, it makes it easier for the government later on to violate OUR rights.

We already have too many exceptions to the Bill of Rights. Why should we be tolerating more and more of them?

If the government is permitted to get away with labeling them as not merely illegal immigrants, but "enemy invaders" akin to a foreign army, then what would that make the rest of us who, say, might choose to offer one of them a job, or sell them something, or rent an apartment to them? Or even, donate to a charity that helps all immigrants even illegal ones? Would that permit the government to label the rest of us as 'enemy sympathizers' and start taking away OUR rights?

[XM]

It is in fact, already illegal to knowingly give jobs to an illegal immigrant. If you gave a job to an illegal knowing about his gang affiliation, you sealed your own fate.

Let's make it simple. If a charity continues to knowingly feed ILLEGAL aliens whom the president declared as criminal aliens, then yes, they're in trouble. If they pass out food to some random homeless guy on the street and he turns out be one of these "invading aliens" they're probably off the hook.

Intent matters in criminal charges. Private businesses would lose all liability protection if they purposely broke federal law to hire someone. That's why they have human resources.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Many would say that's why we have the 2nd amendment. And many remember the fact that this country was formed by a bunch of insurrectionists who committed treason and worse in their attempt to overthrow what they considered to be a despotic government that regularly stomped on their rights as citizens. They even once made a list of those and published them for the world to see.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

In what passes for CharlieG's mind, this passes for something worth posting. To the average 5-YO, it doesn't.

[Incunabulum]

He got to Mexico, he should have stayed there. First safe country, right?

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

Hell, I hear El Salvador is doing fairly well these days. He could have stayed there, and been outside of a prison.

[Lawn Darts]

Sidestepping the entire "due process" question, what about the entire concept of asylum? If you are truly looking for asylum, you have 193 other countries in which to seek it. In fact, if you are walking from Venezuela to the US, you walk through Colombia, Panama, Beautiful Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, Up-and-coming El Salvador, Fabulous Belize, Guatemala and Charming Mexico. This suggests that the goal is mostly just being in the US.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

This. But none of the people pitching a hissy-fit have ever actually read the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.

I'm not sure the idea of non-refoulement even applies to people who have crossed through intermediate countries.

Some bits I'm sure the folks screeching the loudest are unaware of:

Every refugee has duties to the country in which he finds himself, which require in particular that he conform to its laws and regulations as well as to measures taken for the maintenance of public order.

The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the
sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

[sarcasmic]

Well, there you have it folks. I you think "due process" means a day in court, well you are mistaken. "Due process" means you get deported if you say something some government official doesn't like. And it's ok because Trump, and because Democrats did it first.

The most important takeaway from the reaction to these articles is that neither Trump nor his defenders believe in natural rights. They, like leftists, are completely and totally opposed to the concept. They hate it and they hate anyone who supports it. Especially libertarians. That is something they can totally agree on.

They both agree that rights are not something that government protects. No. They both agree that rights are something that government grants or bestows. They both agree that we have no rights until government gives them to us. On that they both agree.

[MollyGodiva]

The same law that Trump is using also says:

"After any such proclamation has been made, the several courts of the United States, having criminal jurisdiction, and the several justices and judges of the courts of the United States, are authorized and it shall be their duty, upon complaint against any alien enemy resident and at large within such jurisdiction or district, to the danger of the public peace or safety, and contrary to the tenor or intent of such proclamation, or other regulations which the President may have established, to cause such alien to be duly apprehended and conveyed before such court, judge, or justice; and after a full examination and hearing on such complaint, and sufficient cause appearing, to order such alien to be removed out of the territory of the United States, or to give sureties for his good behavior, or to be otherwise restrained, conformably to the proclamation or regulations established as aforesaid, and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/23

Judges have the duty to look into Trump's actions.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

The same pile of bullshit from the same lying pile of lefty shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[MollyGodiva]

Are you saying that I incorrectly cited the law? I made up the law? The law does not apply to Trump?

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

You clearly didn't understand the part you posted.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

I'm saying you're an ignoramus who is too stupid to know what you post.
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

and to imprison, or otherwise secure such alien, until the order which may be so made shall be performed."

So they can be imprisoned. Where are they again?

Your cite is literally saying the state can choose to apprehend people and give them a hearing. It doesn't actually require it.

It is the process for if someone were to claim someone was in TdA. Lol.

Did you not understand what you posted?

[MollyGodiva]

"it shall be their duty"

[JesseAz (mean girl ambassador)]

Whats the next 2 words dumbass? What does it authorize the government to do dumbass?

You really are retarded aren't you? Lol.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"You really are retarded aren't you?"

Should not be in question. The steaming pile of lefty shit is obviously incapable of rational thought and needs to fuck off and die.

[ReformedLiberal]

I am curious (a little off topic though), regarding "did the Congress give the Executive branch the authority to deport non-citizens or not?", did Congress give the Executive branch (under Biden) the authority to import non-citizens bypassing normal immigration channels?

[DesigNate]

Per the Vox article that Jeff posted yesterday? Congress actually gave the president both options and left it up to them to decide.

[XM]

https://x.com/TriciaOhio/status/1902805941084381663

A reasonable take from a sensible American

"It's great that Trump is deporting thousands of criminals but it's important to act within parameters"

TDS crew

"OMG Trump is a dictator and he's going to deport everyone now"

There is like, ZERO dispute that there were not an insignificant number of dangerous deviants living in this country under Biden's lawless regime. Not dozens. Possibly hundreds. Maybe thousands. Completely unacceptable. If Biden ran a company like he ran our border, his company would be sued to oblivion.

Sometimes, I think I live in Bizarro World. Some parallel universe. All of a sudden, the liberals who opposed every war in existence suddenly support this one war in Ukraine. People defending themselves against a terrorist government aided by their people are guilty of genocide. A man who provides internet access to warzones and disaster areas and rescues stranded astronaut is a nazi. A senile president is declared among the best in history, and his economy a resounding success. The next president that deports criminals his predecessor let in is also a nazi.

Did I mention that the country was ran by a senile man for 4 years? Name me another freaking country that elected a mentallly deficient man and ignored it. Not even in the worst banana republic.

I swear, if there's any truth to this autopen allegation, it's game over. I don't want to hear this "DUR this is revenge" whining from the TDS guys.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...Did I mention that the country was ran by a senile man for 4 years?..."
Or a group of anonymous people acting in his stead; the 'news organizations' didn't seem interested in finding out.

[windycityattorney]

A reasonable take from a sensible American...that just so happens to align perfectly with your own preconceived views of these same topics?

Circle-jerk fox news brain parasite bullshit.

Why even bother with such a low effort post?

[Vesicant]

> took social media posts out of context

Yeah, he probably only said something innocent like "I want to do heavy drugs and kill gringos." That's so easily misunderstood....

[Truthteller1]

I don't really care Margaret. GFY.

[Thoritsu]

Is this a real problem? No. Move on.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

According to Tobin's statement, Reyes Barrios left Venezuela after being arrested for protesting against Nicolás Maduro's rule. Upon reaching the U.S. border, he applied for asylum and was being kept in custody ahead of a court hearing that was scheduled for April 17.

What was wrong with all of the other countries he passed through before reaching the US border? Are they some kinda shithole or something?

[SRG2]

The cultists, authoritarians to a man, don't care. This chap was one of "those people", so really doesn't deserve rights, and anyway, that's life, greater good, etc etc.

I'm not hearing from the NRA much recently, despite illegal arrests followed by deportations are exactly the kind of thing that 2A exists for, or so we have been told.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

As a cultist, you are more than qualified to post on the matter. Please do not seek help for your raging case of TDS; we can all hope it is fatal.
Oh, and fuck off and die, asshole.

[epsilon given]

Why are you so angry that people who don't believe rights are being trampled and are in danger aren't picking up arms to prevent this alleged miscarriage of justice? What motive do they even have, when they agree that something needs to be done about the waves of illegal and outright dangerous immigrants Pretendent Biden pushed into our country?

And if you're so confident in the egregiousness of what President Trump is doing, what's keeping you and your friends from picking up arms and defending these immigrants? If the answer is "My friends and I don't have the guns", then you have only reïnforced the need for Second Amendment rights.

If, on the other hand, your answer is "But I'm afraid we'll get shot", then you and your friends are blustering, bold, brave cowards.

[freedomwriter]

I mostly like Reason, but the comments from maga morons is by far and away more entertaining.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

Comments from steaming piles of TDS-addled lying lefty shits are far more amusing, steaming pile of TDS-addled lying lefty shit.

[epsilon given]

I kindof like Reason, and I have for years -- but I enjoy it mostly for the comic relief of how they cast even the most heavy-handed authoritarian policies as "libertarian" and somehow find authoritarianism in even the most benign policies from Republicans.

I have suspected for years (and I'm not the only libertarian-minded person to do so) that Reason is a front run by Democrats, trying to discourage them from voting Republican, and if possible get them to vote Democrat.

[Your Therapist]

Freedomwriter, never mind Sevo and his threats. Not the brightest. He runs behind Trump collecting his turds. Sevo thinks they’re as valuable as gold bullion.

[AT]

Hire a lawyer to file a motion to reopen and argue in absentia. You could also try filing an appeal with the US Court of Appeals.

Of course, it'll be much more difficult to claim "persecution" in Venezuela anymore, since he's now safe and sound in an entirely different country.

I really don't know why anyone is getting worked up about any of this. All the blabber about "due process" and "was he really a gang member" - it's all just a distraction.

So is this "nakedly unjust and inhumane treatment of Reyes Barrios" claptrap. It's not unjust and inhumane. Unjust and inhumane (arguably) would have been deporting him back to Venezuela.

Illegal alien crosses illegally, committing a crime simply by doing so, claiming amnesty. We say, "OK, we get that you're scared of your COO. We're going to reject your request for amnesty, mostly because the extreme majority of the American citizenry doesn't want to give it to you, but we appreciate your predicament - so we'll send you somewhere that's not there."

Everybody wins. I don't see why this is a problem for anyone.

[AT]

I'll tell you what is a problem though:

or merely that he's a fan of the Spanish soccer team Real Madrid?

This is what Allie Beth Stuckey dubbed "toxic empathy."

Aww, see he's not a bad guy. He's just a regular 'ol Joe (Jose?) who really likes soccer and body art. Look, it even says God, what a nice person he is. It's emotional manipulation.

Toxic empathy also tends to rely heavily on omissions. Look at what the lawyer said: "He registered with CBP One in Mexico, [pregnant pause,] then presented himself to CBP officials on the day of his appointment."

Know what's missing? Where he was during the pregnant pause. Because here's the important question: if he were just chilling in Mexico until his number is called (which, if you'll recall, is how Orange Man Bad originally had things working), and then he entered at a port of entry and was paroled to stay in America - that's one thing. If he did whatever on Biden's Border Jumper App, and then snuck in BEFORE the day of his appointment, that's an illegal entry. Criminal Alien. No if's and's or but's.

And here's the thing: if he HAD stayed in Mexico before turning himself over at a port of entry to go directly to illegal alien jail for holding until hearing, you'd think it'd be something the lawyer - and Reason - would heavily lean into. Because it would REALLY help legitimize the case that this guy was done dirty.

But, they don't do that. Do they. And the clear inference from OMITTING that part is that he did illegally enter.

Which puts a big 'ol hole in the "he's such a nice guy whose only crime is loving soccer" (which should also be a clear basis for deportation all on its own, but let's address that some other time) narrative they want to emotionally manipulate you with. Throws him right back in the Border Hopping Criminal category.

And let's add one more thing.

Also omitted, for purposes of emotional manipulation, is ANY investigation whatsoever into Tren De Aragua tattooing. (Or his heavily cropped social media photo that intentionally deprives us of ANY context, but conveniently lets them make up whatever context they want.) Here look at this:

https://x.com/BillMelugin_/status/1765859354451075363

Aww, that first one is just an innocent 'ol choo-choo train! And our other guy has a picture of a clock! That can't possibly be gang-related, can it?

We don't know, because you have omitted any investigation into the matter and merely declared it as such. But you know who likely does know a whole lot better than we do?

ICE. DHS. CBP. FBI.

So, was this a terrible mistake? Yea, maybe - but you, Reason, are not actually providing any evidence that it is. You're just going straight to the toxic empathy. Because that's all you leftists know how to do anymore.

Oh, and for the record, this is why folks like you - like the rest of the legacy media - are dead. Nobody trusts ANYTHING you say anymore. Because of stuff like this.

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...(which should also be a clear basis for deportation all on its own, but let's address that some other time)..."

Was going to agree with your more substantive comments, as in "omission", but this got the standing O regardless.
Kickball - an hour of nothing and then riots on the field. You're OUTA HERE!

[James K. Polk]

You don't see why it's a problem because you are an authoritarian. You think it's fine for Trump to ignore the law as long as you're convinced that "everybody wins".

[Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment]

"...You think it's fine for Trump to ignore the law as long as you're convinced that "everybody wins"..."

One more TDS-addled steaming pile of shit claiming Trump is breaking laws which this asshole can't seem to cite.
Stuff your TDS up your ass to keep your head company, and then make the world a better place:
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[AT]

It's not a question of "being authoritarian." It's a question of practicality.

The dude wants amnesty.
We - everyone in America - don't want to give it to him.
He is legally subject to deportation.
We decide to deport.
We send him someplace better than the one from which he was claiming amnesty.

There's nothing "authoritarian" or "ignoring the law" about that. And, yes, EVERYBODY WINS. Why is it with you people and your inability to take the win?