Trump's Threatened 200 Percent Tariffs on European Booze Are His Least Sensible Trade Move Yet
It would make American consumers poorer and hurt American businesses without any promise of benefits.

President Donald Trump's trade war is spilling across the Atlantic, and his latest tariff threats might be the least defensible yet.
In a Thursday morning post on Truth Social, Trump threatened to slap "a 200 percent tariff on all wines, Champagnes, & alcoholic products coming out of France and other E.U. represented countries." That's in retaliation to the European Union's decision earlier this week to place new 50 percent tariffs on American whiskey, bourbon, and a variety of other items including motorcycles and agricultural goods. Those new E.U. tariffs will take effect on April 1—one day before the so-called "reciprocal tariffs" that Trump has threatened to impose on all imports from everywhere around the globe.
"Trump is escalating the trade war he chose to unleash," wrote Laurent Saint-Martin, France's minister for foreign trade, in a Thursday post on X. "We will not give in to threats and will always protect our sectors."
In short: If you enjoy French wine, German beer, champagne, port, or any other uniquely European alcohol products, now might be the time to stock up.
A 200 percent tariff on those imports would be debilitating for the American businesses that sell those products to consumers—a supply chain that includes importers, wholesalers, restaurants, and many other small and mid-sized businesses. And that comes on top of the impact from other tariffs, which are already expected to hit American restaurants with $12 billion in higher costs.
Unsurprisingly, alcohol stocks on both sides of the Atlantic fell sharply on Thursday morning in response to Trump's announcement.
Even compared to other parts of Trump's self-destructive trade war, tariffs on alcohol seem to make little sense. Unlike with tariffs on manufacturing inputs and raw materials, where the Trump administration can at least claim to be protecting or promoting American production by making imports more expensive, that same tradeoff does not exist when it comes to many alcohol products.
There is no American "champagne business," despite what Trump claimed in his Truth Social post, and it is unlikely that American consumers who want to drink French champagne will be satisfied to swill domestic sparkling wine instead. French or Italian wines are valuable because they are distinct from the types of wine that can be produced in the United States. The same is true for German and Belgian beers. They can be duplicated by American producers, but the experience of sipping some Veuve Clicquot or a Chimay cannot be replicated.
If those products become too expensive to compete in the American market, American consumers will have fewer choices and will be poorer for it. The businesses that currently make a buck by shuttling those products across the ocean will lose too. America will not be stronger or better or greater in any way.
Meanwhile, the escalating trade war means that American alcohol producers stand to lose some of their export market to Europe as well. Trade makes everyone better off, and so cutting off trade ensures that everyone loses.
"The U.S. spirits sector supports more than $200 billion in economic activity, 1.7 million jobs across production, distribution, hospitality and retail, and the purchase of 2.8 billion pounds of grains from American farmers," Chris Swonger, CEO of the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States, which represents alcohol producers, said in a statement. "We urge President Trump to secure a spirits agreement with the EU to get us back to zero-for-zero tariffs, which benefits the hospitality industry and U.S. craft distillers who export their products. We want toasts not tariffs."
Trump's willingness to threaten tariffs has, so far, been greater than his willingness to actually impose those higher costs on the American economy. It seems like Europe's leaders are now calling the president's bluff—and people on both sides of the Atlantic should be hoping he once again backs down.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"In short: If you enjoy French wine, German beer, champagne, port, or any other uniquely European alcohol products, now might be the time to stock up."
I don't.
At all.
Also do not go to bars.
Why should I give a damn?
Why should I give a damn?
Because this Trump's reciprocal tariff prompted by the E.U.'s which was in response to Trump's reciprocal tariff will likely prompt an E.U. reciprocal tariff which will need to be countered with a Trump reciprocal tariff.
The EU has been fucking over American producers for years, heavily restricting what agricultural goods we can export to them, and slapping huge tariffs on them. They've done the same with American alcohol and a number of other products. Are we supposed to fucking ignore that? That isn't free trade. We were already in a trade war with the EU, we just had chosen to surrender and let them fuck us over.
Free trade means your own government allows you to trade freely without interference. Doesn't matter what other governments do.
Protectionists lie and claim that free trade must go both ways. Why? Because they're looking out for politically connected industries that want to be protected with tariffs. The only people who benefit from tariffs are politicians and entrenched businesses. Neither give a flying fuck about the rest of us who have to pay more.
It does matter what governments do as they’re the ones who decide what is allowed in, what’s not, and what gets taxed and at how much. It really doesn’t matter what individuals do at that point and scale.
Sarcastic: Brief and correct.
Debating specific wasteful govt. spending is a distraction. For over a century, deficit spending has risen.
Rand Paul notes the unapologetic run-away spending of the left and the hypocrisy of the "conservative" right that also spends and blames the left.
Conclusion: The system created wars and economic disasters. It can't "fix" itself.
If you disagree, you ignore the overspending made possible since 1913 when the Federal Reserve (central bank) was created to fund WWI and the continued deficit since. Clearly, it's a destructive political paradigm.
Why do you allow yourself to be governed into poverty? Why don't you stop voting for the failed political system? Are you economically suicidal? How about your loss of life, liberty, property, happiness?
Is this citizens hurting citizens, or a despotic govt.? Do we need more violence or a new non-violent politics?
Think, decide, and act.
Add free trade to the words Sarcasmic doesn't understand.
Oh it's free trade when the other country fucks your over, just as long as you can get cheap shit from the country that's fucking you over. That isn't free trade moron. That's not even mercantilism. That's suzerainty you fuck head.
Also, I'm glad you mentioned protectionism, because that's the only reason the EU has treated us like shit for decades. We've tried multiple times to negotiate and they've responded with more tariffs and more restrictions. It's been a trade war for decades. Only one side has been fighting it, while we rolled over and played dead. Negotiating has failed multiple times.
Boehm cranks out 3 or 4 of these tariff rants a week but he never acknowledges the existing tariffs that our "trading partners" charge. It's impossible to know what a reciprocal tariff would look like when you are only looking at one side. Trump famously offered zero tariffs in his first term and the EU screamed their heads off. If Reason is so panicked about tariffs why aren't they advocating for zero?
Boehm cranks out 3 or 4 of these tariff rants a week but he never acknowledges the existing tariffs that our "trading partners" charge.
That statement shows that your understanding of economics is on par with Trump's. We aren't charged their tariffs. Their people are. Just as Mexico doesn't pay the tariffs Trump puts on their goods. We do.
You don’t get it. It’s not free trade if it’s unilateral. Free trade is either bilateral or multilateral. And you may claim it’s a “tax” all you want, but it’s also used as a tool to steer, manipulating the market, your citizens towards products made either in the country or another, more favored country. This is what the EU has been doing to us for decades. Go read up on the history of the chicken tax sometime.
I took you off mute to see if you were being your usual bad-faith self or having a rare moment of intellectual honesty. Surprisingly it's the latter.
Free trade is between you and your government. At least that's what most economists will say. They'll also say that tariffs are bad economics.
You're talking about tariffs as a tool for politics, not economics. Tariffs can be shitty economics and great politics at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. But good politics doesn't mean good economics. Especially because good politics requires bad economics.
“The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.”
― Thomas Sowell
Unilateral free trade is a thing. It has been tried. 5 seconds of thinking ought to enlighten you; if you stop hurting yourself, you get better. If you can't see that, then you don't know that tariffs are a tax on yourself.
They're only a tax on yourself, if A) you either don't produce enough of a product domestically or don't produce it period and B) you don't produce it more cheaply. We aren't hurting ourselves at all. Because we already produce surplus of the goods being tariffed, cheaper than the imports, and the same or better quality. Ergo, the tariff is only imposed on status items. This doesn't hurt US consumers. You keep ignoring that, as does Eric. He even admits we produce more, cheaper and of the same or better quality. Ergo it doesn't hurt our consumers in this case. Fucking A. You're a broken record. No original arguments. The same tired argument no matter what the facts say differently.
Taxes don't make us rich, and tariffs are taxes.
Oh it's free trade when the other country fucks your over, just as long as you can get cheap shit from the country that's fucking you over.
Yes. Free trade means optimizing consumer choices. The people who the other countries are "fucking over" are businesses that can't compete. They want to be protected from other countries with a comparative advantage. When they get their way they stagnate because they don't have to compete, and we all lose because of the opportunity cost of doing things where we're at a comparative disadvantage. Everyone loses, except the politicians and the protected businesses.
It is revealing that you Trump defenders couldn't stop ranting about how Bidenflation was the end of the world (while ignoring the CARES Act that Trump signed), and now you guys are shrugging off higher prices (because Trump is doing it).
Shows that you care only about who, not what.
Wait a sec, are you saying the the EU has been controlling their very own borders? That borders actually mean something? That if the EU wants to harm its own citizens with tariffs and quotas and laws and regulations, that is their business?
Or are you saying that Murica! and the EU should open their borders to Murican products because Murica! and fuck their own birders, that don't count?
Thats almost as stupid as what sarc wrote.
So they can block American goods and launch tariffs because it's their borders but we can't? Fucking your argument is circular logic. And you call me a nimrod. Fucking idiot.
You're the one who complained the EU wasn't letting American goods in.
All you complained about in that quote is the harm done to Americans, by Europeans, acting within their own borders.
In other words, you're a hypocrite.
He is certainly a hypocrite as you so eloquently pointed out. Despite your name, you're not as stupid as sm76, Jesse and his protectionist bfffs.
Congrats STG. Another liberal is on yours and aarcs side! Lol.
Another person who heard someone missed free trade and stopped their learning there.
Some great allies you two are getting.
At some point you'll realize that what globalists call free trade is trendy propaganda and you were lied to.
Guessing it will take a while though.
And do you think those tariffs and restrictions don't hurt Americans? Really, you don't think it hurts American farmers and distillers? Or are we supposed to ignore that cost? Because it's not just their own citizens is it?
And do you think those tariffs and restrictions don't hurt Americans?
No one said that.
Really, you don't think it hurts American farmers and distillers?
No one said that either.
Or are we supposed to ignore that cost?
If by "ignore" you mean use taxes to increase what everyone pays for imports, then yes.
Oh so you're okay with them fucking over your fellow citizens as long as you pay less for your imported vodka? Glad we know where you stand.
"That if the EU wants to harm its own citizens with tariffs and quotas and laws and regulations, that is their business?" And yes he did all but say it was only their citizens being hurt in this sentence but you're illiterate so I'll let that slide.
Comparative advantage you dolt.
If someone else can sell something at a lower cost than we can produce it, then lets buy it from them. That frees up resources that can be put to use doing things where we have a comparative advantage. Propping up industries that can't compete creates opportunity cost. Economics 101.
They don't produce it cheaper than we do moron and our agriculture can compete with anyone if given the chance, but they won't even allow us to compete against them. What part of that don't you fucking get? It's not economic 101 because there is no fucking competition idiot.
Again you're missing it. Pretty sure we've got a comparative advantage when it comes to agriculture. American farmers produce food more cheaply than the competition (I'm sure farm subsidies help but that's a different topic).
There are other things where we do not have a comparative advantage. Steel for example. Thanks to protectionist policies our steel industry hasn't bothered to innovate in decades because they don't have to in order to compete, and now other countries can produce it more cheaply. The solution to that is not tariffs. It's for domestic industry to be forced to compete or close.
Nimrod, yes. Hypocrite. Completely blind to trade wars working both ways when American starts it, but more than happy to escalate it when others do it.
You too don't understand tariffs. The only successful way to win trade wars is with unilateral free trade. That you cannot see that shows you don't understand tariffs or trade.
Fuck you're a moron. It's not the least hypocritical to say make the Europeans play by the same rules they make us play by. Fuck you're getting fucking stupid with this shit. And I don't know when the fuck I've ever insulted you until you called me a nimrod. But I see when it comes to tariffs you are just blindly stupid about it.
Why? Why is it so important to you to hurt Americans when Europeans hurt themselves? Why does it matter so much that Europeans have their own rules for their own borders, and that offends you, but it's just great when Americans have our own rules for our borders?
Pick one or the other.
Protectionism makes sense in that it help producer. Producers employ people who buy stuff, so on and so forth.
Free trade makes sense in that it helps consumers. Lower prices, comparative advantage, less opportunity cost, so on and so forth.
If you want to get a protectionist to change their mind, you need to get them to look at the economy from the point of view of consumers, not producers. They need to see some of what is unseen.
And you're not going to do that by calling them hypocrites.
He is usually the first one to call names then goes into victim mode. Remind you of someone?
Tariffs hurt both nations involved. It's fine and appropriate to oppose other nation's tariffs, ideally with a tactic that doesn't hurt our own citizens.
Are we supposed to fucking ignore that?
There are other tools in the toolbox besides the hammer.
That's we've tried and they've all failed.
Nope, not even close. Trump and you and all the other Trumpistas completely shut your eyes to unilateral free trade, the best weapon there is in trade wars.
How is it a good weapon to buy their shit cheap when we can't even sell our shit in their country? That's like saying the best way to respond to a surprise attack is to not shoot back. Fuck that's assanine.
If someone else raises the price that they pay for your stuff, do you make yourself better off by raising the prices that you pay for their stuff? I don't think so. Seems like a really stupid idea.
That isn't free trade. That's your definition of free trade. That isn't free trade. And for your information they do more than raise the cost of US goods so we can't compete. In many cases, they don't even allow us to sell our goods in the EU. They outright ban our goods. So it's not even a competition. Fuck I've only said that multiple times. And even when they do allow us to sell, they not only slap us with huge tariffs but regulate it to almost excluding it. Also, FYI, we produce that stuff cheaper than them and sell it cheaper domestically, so you're whining that you have to pay more for imported goods than the same product domestically produced. The American produced stuff is already cheaper than the EU produced stuff. So you're whining about paying more for shit you already have to pay more for. Fuck, it's like arguing with a toddler. Any and all of the products being tariffed are domestically produced and cheaper and often of superior quality. That is the reason the EU blocks and tariffs our goods, because they're cheaper, they're of the same or better quality and they've over regulated their industries. They can't compete.
That isn't free trade. That's your definition of free trade. That isn't free trade.
Dude, for fun I listen to lectures by economists. You're just plain wrong. You know lots more about agriculture than anyone here. But that doesn't mean you know dick about economics.
You're confusing fair with free. What you are describing is unfair. Yes. I'm in agreement with you. But freedom is between you and your government, not between you and the EU.
Dude, you may listen, but you fail to understand. Those are two different things.
And another FYI, one of the big reasons Congress keeps subsidizing American agriculture is directly due to shit like what the EU does, and what Canada does, etc. So we either have free trade, real free trade, where our goods can compete. We subsidize. Or we retaliate after negotiations have failed (which they have multiple times).
Dude, you may listen, but you fail to understand. Those are two different things.
Yeah, taking you off mute was a bad idea. Get back to fucking yourself.
STG always claims foreigners make shit cheaper. But if they did those countries wouldn't worry about American products competing and slap tariffs on American goods. STG constantly denies his own logical consistency.
You don’t seem to understand economics or warfare by other means very well. You do realize that a tariff over there directly affects our producers who now have to have higher prices in their market and are at a competitive disadvantage. If they also subsidize production, especially using the tariffs raised against us, then their cost of production is artificially lowered, thus making their producers appear more competitive. If we fail to either subsidize producers (which I hate doing) or raise tariffs (not my favorite choice), then their producers appear more competitive here when they’re being made competitive artificially. That is not a situation that we should want.
And that is a big reason we do subsidize agriculture, is because of unfair trade laws. Because it would be a really bad thing for the majority of farmers to go tits up because other countries subsidize the fuck out of their goods and severely restrict our goods. It's a really bad idea, especially considering we are the most productive and environmentally sound farmers and ranchers in the world, for us to let our industry die. So, Congress thinks they need to subsidize it. So, in essence we're already paying a tariff on domestic goods because of the subsidies.
This selling us stuff to cheaply complaint is ridiculous. We get more for our money. When you see sales while shopping, do you wait for the sale to end to buy? Only with Trump's misunderstanding of trade deficits does this seem bad.
And that is a big reason we do subsidize agriculture....
We need socialism for the farmers? There's not much difference between tariffs and subsidies. Both are taxes on consumers to transfers wealth to a chosen industry.
This selling us stuff to cheaply complaint is ridiculous.
It isn't if you're a producer. You want people to buy your stuff, and if someone else can sell it at a lower price then you're going to lose out. I can understand the protectionist argument, and it makes sense from the point of view of the producer.
However it's terrible for the rest of us. It's what economists call concentrated benefits and dispersed costs.
Protectionists refuse to look at it from the point of view of the consumer. They mock and belittle people when they talk about prices. But prices really are what it's all about. Protectionists see competition selling things at a lower price, and they petition the government to raise the price through tariffs if the competition is foreign, or regulation if they're domestic.
That is especially hypocritical because the people who are demanding that the government loosen regulations to lower prices are the first people to demand tariffs to raise prices.
Who said they sold shit more cheaply? They don't but they do cost American farmers lots of money, by creating an artificial surplus of American goods by severely restricting them, which in turn leads our government to subsidize our farmers (and the EU actually subsidizes their farmers even more). Our agricultural goods are cheaper. When we are allowed to sell them. We can compete, even with their subsidized crops, because we are that good. But they don't even allow us to try most the time. With the EU the charge huge tariffs and over regulated and even ban American commodities. And they also artificially lower American commodity prices.
We can compete, even with their subsidized crops, because we are that good. But they don't even allow us to try most the time.
That sucks and isn't fair. I'm with you on that. But how does our government raising the prices we pay for imports make it better?
Actually this is the perfect trade war, because these are luxury/status products that already cost more. So, by raising the cost Americans are going to buy even less because they can buy the same products domestically produced already cheaper. The ones who get hurt are the EU producers whose only marketing is to say they're products come from Europe and that makes them better simply because they come from Europe.
I acknowledge that tariffs and trade wars are great politics.
But they're shitty economics.
Ya know ... if someone says to me, Hey, it cost me $100 to make this product, but I'm going to sell it to you for $80 ... how has that hurt me?
And then I turn around and say, No, that's no good, so I'm going to give my government $20 every time I buy that $80 product.
Is that your logic? You really like giving government more to spend? Is that your idea of how to be libertarian, give government more money and impoverish yourself?
You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? Did you even read any of the things I've written? Or are you arguing with a straw man (I'm thinking the latter). For your example to be correct, it takes me $5 per bushel to grow wheat, but you refuse to let me sell my wheat, or just a very little and then demand what little you allow me to sell I have to sell for three dollars while you slap a $4 per bushel charge on it. And then you demand that I let you sell your wheat for $5 a bushel with no restrictions. That's actually what's happening. But, and here's the kicker, since I have to sell my wheat for $3 a bushel now, because of an artificial surplus, my product is still cheaper domestically than your imported exactly the same product, while hurting the domestic economy. And a bunch of people whine when my government says to your government, you have to play by the same rules you make us play by, so you have to pay for a $4 tariff the same as you make our guys pay. So, now your wheat is now selling for $9 a bushel, while my wheat is still selling for $3 a bushel and some guy on the Internet who knows nothing about commodities and agriculture starts whining about 'muh tariffs'.
I understand that from the point of a producer, other countries having tariffs while your own doesn't isn't fair. It makes it harder for you to compete. I get it.
What I'm asking you to do is to look at it from the point of view of the consumer. Just forget the producer angle for a moment and be a consumer (which we all are). How do lower prices harm you? How do tariffs help you?
Hint when we can't even sell a lot of our goods in their countries but we allow them to sell their goods cheaply in the US, it's not free trade. And that sure as hell isn't the best weapon. I can't sell my wheat or beef in Europe, and it's hard to export US liquor to Europe but yeah, letting them sell with little to no hassle will sure show them. What a fucking maroon.
You're confusing fair with free. True it's unfair when other countries have tariffs and yours doesn't. They're paying higher prices and you're not. That's not fair.
Free trade means that consumers are free to trade without their government interfering. Doesn't matter what other governments do. Free trade is between you and your own government.
No, free trade is not unilateral. Period. Except in your world. That isn't free trade. No matter how often you claim it is.
+1
The vast majority of economists will tell you that unilateral free trade is better than protectionism, going all the way back to 1776 when Adam Smith published 'The Wealth of Nations'.
Mises
From Human Action (1949):
“The much talked about disadvantages which allegedly result from one-sided free trade are illusory. If a government wants to make its citizens poorer than they could be under complete free trade, it is certainly free to do so. But such a policy does not harm the other nations; it does not justify a retaliation policy on their part.”
From Nation, State, and Economy (1919):
“Even if foreign governments pursue policies of protectionism, the best policy for any nation is still to remove its own trade barriers, as these only serve to impoverish its own people.”
From Economic Policy: Thoughts for Today and Tomorrow (1979):
“What is needed is not an ‘improvement’ of protectionism, but its total abandonment. The argument that we must protect our industries against the unfair practices of foreigners is merely an excuse for the special interests of certain producers at the expense of the rest of the nation.”
No, free trade is not unilateral. Period. Except in your world. That isn't free trade. No matter how often you claim it is.
You're totally wrong again. You're confusing "free trade" with "free trade agreement" or "fair trade". Read a book asshole.
Lol. And Alberto joins in with retard understanding of economics. Fucking amazing.
Hey buddy. Google the actual definition of free trade. It states between nations, not one direction. God damn.
You 3 are just proof of how invasive propaganda is.
Wrong place
Since it's unlikely you will read a book, unless Jesse let's you borrow his, here's a relevant quote from Milton Friedman's 1962 book, Capitalism and Freedom.
Given that we should move to free-trade, how should we do so? The method that we have tried to adopt is reciprocal negotiation of tariff reductions with other countries. This seems to me a wrong procedure. In the first place, it ensures a slow pace. He moves fastest who moves alone. In the second place, it fosters an erroneous view of the basic problem. It makes it appear as if tariffs help the country imposing them but hurt other countries, as if when we reduce a tariff we give up something good and should get something in return in the form of a reduction in the tariffs imposed by other countries. In truth, the situation is quite different. Our tariffs hurt us as well as other countries. We would be benefited by dispensing with our tariffs even if other countries did not. We would of course be benefited even more if they reduce theirs but our benefiting does not require that they reduce tariffs. Self-interests coincide and do not conflict.
I believe that it would be far better for us to move to free trade unilaterally, as Britain did in the 19th century when it repealed the Corn Laws. We, as they did, would experience an enormous accession of political and economic power. We are a great nation and it ill behooves us to require reciprocal benefits from China, Mexico or Europe before we reduce a tariff on products from those countries. Let us live up to our destiny and set the pace not be reluctant followers.
That's a really poor reading of what happened with the corn laws. First, the corn laws produced artificial shortages, because it severely restricted imports, and England couldn't produce enough agricultural goods domestically to meet their needs. So repealing the corn laws allowed in more grain from Eastern Europe, dropping the prices for consumers.
That isn't even close to what is happening here. We produce a surplus of grain. We produce it cheaper than Europe does, or any other country. We want to sell in Europe but they both severely restrict it and slap huge tariffs on it. Nothing Europe sells agriculturally is cheaper than US goods. So there is no benefit to us buying European agricultural goods. But there is huge benefits to us being able to sell our surplus in Europe. Friedman's example doesn't apply, as Britain in the18th and 19th century, with the corn laws, actually produced a shortage to keep prices high. That isn't the case with American agriculture. You're comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you read a book. But I don't you think you can read anything more than 'tariff's are bad, dehr, Friedman said so'.
We produce a surplus of grain.
Maybe some of them should change crops. *shrug*
And slapping tariffs on imports isn't going to help if they can't compete.
Also, you do realize your entire argument is an appeal to authority don't you? And you suggest I am unread?
Also, you do realize your entire argument is an appeal to authority don't you?
It's an appeal to reason, not to authority. Appeals to authority are appeals to "fuck you, that's why." While appeals to reason are "listen to this guy, he makes sense."
That's a really poor reading of what happened with the corn laws.
I guess I should've only copypasta'ed the first paragraph that you are willfully ignoring.
So, you say I ignored the first paragraph and you shouldn't have quoted the second, because the second contradicts your point. So you're selectively appealing to authority. And yes Sarcasmic this is an appeal to authority, it's the literal definition of an appeal to authority. Milton Friedman says this so you're wrong, is the literal definition of an appeal to authority, especially when I countered it by pointing out he was wrong on his reading of the corn laws and thus his hypothesis is weaker because he uses it as an example and the OP then whines that he shouldn't have included the second paragraph because it weakens his argument and he only wants to selectively quote Friedman without criticism. That is the literal definition of an appeal to authority. He quoted Friedman and when I showed Friedman was wrong about the corn laws, ergo his entire hypothesis is suspect, since he used this as a he example to illustrate his hypothesis, he whines that he shouldn't have included the second paragraph and then implied I ignored the first paragraph. Which I didn't since I discounted the first paragraph because of the glaring mistake in the second one that countered the point of the first, as the second was meant as evidence of the strength of the hypothesis he introduced in the first. It's like if I stated cows produce more milk if we feed them Cheerios but then someone points out they actually produce less milk and I say ignore that, my original hypothesis was correct. Ignore the evidence to the contrary because I said so (BTW since Cheerios are made with Oats, they actually would be a good concentrate source but one that would be prone to acidosis because they're heavily processed).
Yeah only copy and paste (not offer your own arguments) that which supports you and hope no one reads the second paragraph that counters your point. Real good debate strategy their chump.
In that post he is literally discussing reciprocity as trade. He seeks to modify behaviors due to the lack of free trade.
His position is a different method to going towards free trade. A method we've largely explored for decades without seeing a reduction of reciprocity in free trade. A failed methodology.
Are you a fucking moron?
Do you understand economics thought and analysis didn't stop in the 60s? Freidmans desire for a unilateral system to encourage free trade is completely failed lol.
Do you understand economics thought and analysis didn't stop in the 60s? Freidmans desire for a unilateral system to encourage free trade is completely failed lol.
Right, because the USA is the least successful country in the world? Get the fuck outta here. You stupid fuckers want everything in this country to be as expensive as in Europe.
Oh look. The very definition of bad faith has entered the chat. Hey Jesse, you going to be a passive-aggressive little bitch who makes snide comments indirectly, or are you going to be a passive-aggressive little bitch who replies to me directly with arguments against the voices in your head? Either way you're a little bitch.
At least SGT wants to be like you when he grows up. He just has to disavow economics and read a book about game theory.
You do realize domestically produced food and beverages are already cheaper even without the tariffs don't you dipshit? So how is tariffing an already expensive produce going to make everything more expensive? Absolutely no logic to that fucking argument. You can't absorb new facts and adjust your argument can you? You just blatantly repeat the same old trope. Fuck you're an idiot I see who blindly follows what others tell you. You're the fucking moron who doesn't understand we are the most successful agricultural country in the world, so these tariffs mean shit to what out consumers will pay unless they insist on paying for high cost European goods simply because they're European. You already pay more for these goods from Europe, and can buy the same product from US producers for cheaper. You all keep making the same mistaken argument when it comes to this exact tariff. Because you can't adjust your argument to facts that run counter to your narrative.
You do realize domestically produced food and beverages are already cheaper even without the tariffs don't you dipshit? So how is tariffing an already expensive produce going to make everything more expensive? Absolutely no logic to that fucking argument.
You do realize that if you can sell your "surplus" of 'whatever the fuck you grow' to the euros or others for 10,20 or 30% more than here, then why the fuck should you sell it here to me for less than they're willing to pay for it? See how this works? I get to pay more eventually so you can get fat and happy now. Fuck you. If they aren't willing to buy your shit, find another country that will, or grow something else, or turn part of your land into a motel or titty bar.
You just proved you can't fucking make an argument. And cant adjust your argument when facts go against your hypothesis. So kindly fuck off dipshit. Let the grown ups talk now you imbecile whose throwing a fit because you can't adjust your argument and I disagree with your premise. So, fuck off, you sophomoric twit.
Not my fault you don't understand basic supply and demand. If nobody's buyin what you're sellin, there's still a shortage of titty bars. Just sayin
So .... what. You are clueless about trade.
The only way foreigners can buy US products is with US money.
The only way foreigners can earn US money to buy US products is buy selling foreign products to Americans.
Think about that for a few seconds before reading on. If there were only two countries in the world, they would have to buy and sell with each other in equal amounts.
But when there are more than two countries, that no longer applies.
German sells $1 billion of cars to the US, gets $1 billion in dollars.
France sells $1 billion in trains to Germany, gets those $1 billion dollars.
The US sells $1 billion in natural gas to France, gets those $1 billion dollars.
The trade balances are all out of whack, because that's how trade works. But we can't sell $2 billion in natural gas to France because they only have $1 billion in dollars.
Stop being so misinformed. Use your brain for something besides parroting Trumpisms.
Except that isn't at all how it works. Especially with agricultural commodities.
You're severely misinformed if you think that's how commodity prices are set.
We're talking commodities, not widgets. And we're talking about commodities that we already produce in surplus and don't need European imports and that we already produce cheaper. As I've told you multiple times now. But you keep ignoring it. Because you refuse to see facts that run counter to your perceptions.
What was tried and failed?
We've tried several different negotiations for decades. The USDA and State department have entire sections devoted to trying to open the EU to American agricultural goods.
Plus industry groups have lobbied the EU. Have negotiated. Have ran press junkets for EU officials. Etc.
Thanks for the response.
I was thinking more like Trump doing his dealing with a different tool, like threats to cut NATO or European defense.
According to the JeffSarc, Boehm, QB, and all the other leftists here, it is the duty of America to bend over and take whatever trade deal every other country chooses to offer, no questions asked.
So you want to steel my money, take everyone else's money and give your money to the feds, the steel manufacturers, the unions and whoever else the government favors and call us leftists while you do it? Genius
It's the same tactic as Biden with school loans and green energy.
You're the leftist.
"They can be duplicated by American producers, but the experience of sipping some Veuve Clicquot or a Chimay cannot be replicated."
*rolls eyes* Eric here is coming off like a guy that really enjoys the smell of his own farts.
Probably had a Tesla but sold because DOGE.
Hey France - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL57muBck0w
Our shoelaces are tied. It's not that we want to do this - it's that we're GOING to do this. Even if we're thinking about jumping ship, well the darn shoelaces are stuck.
This is happening. Just bail out now. You won't win.
Pffft. As long as it doesn't affect Muskovite South African wines like Stellar Shiraz, blocking eurotrash wines can worst case rebound a healthy increase in demand for homegrown and psychedelics.
Didn't the 1973 Libertarian Party platform solve this issue?
Where in the bibby blue blazes do you get such nonsense?
See if you can raise that snobby little nose a little higher.
* First you say there is no American "champagne business", showing you've fallen for the nonsense that a regional trademark somehow means all other bubbly wine is a fake.
* Then you say foreign wine can be duplicated in the US, putting the lie to your first fraud.
* Then you say that the name on the bottle makes all the difference in the world.
How do you even manage to get dressed in the morning, pajama boy?
Remember when the Frenchies took sledge hammers to a shipment of Miller High Life, the champagne of beers, that was mistakenly shipped into a French port? But yeah Trump is the protectionist. Boehm actually makes the case for protectionist trade justified by his own snobbery. What a maroon.
This is why I say they are bad at pragmatics.
They literally don't understand anything outside of their bubble.
That's in retaliation to the European Union's decision earlier this week to place new 50 percent tariffs on American whiskey, bourbon, and a variety of other items including motorcycles and agricultural goods. Those new E.U. tariffs will take effect on April 1—one day before the so-called "reciprocal tariffs" that Trump has threatened to impose on all imports from everywhere around the globe.
How is it so called reciprocal when the EU is already enacting tariffs on US goods? That's the literal definition of reciprocal you lying fuck. Also, how is Trump starting a trade war when the EU enacted the tariffs first? Was FDR starting an actual war when he retaliated against Japan? Fucking stupid bullshit, fuck Eric, you so fucking stupid it hurts.
So when other countries play the same game, that's wrong.
That's called hypocrisy.
Not it isn't hypocrisy to make them play by the same rules they make us play by. That's the furthest thing from hypocrisy.
Reciprocal childishness: "Yeah, shoot off your toes, and I'll shoot off my own in retaliation."
They're throwing rocks into their harbors! That's not fair! We need to fill our harbors with rocks too!
I know this is going to be a shock, but you can still get drunk off of American booze.
Hey I like Evercleer as much as the next guy but at Reason cocktail parties they only stock the imports.
They’re probaby big into appletinis.
Isn't this how most trade wars go? Tit for Tat. You put tariff on X so we are putting ours on Y etc... I do think the Europeans are at a disadvantage here. Not because of any economic reason; its simply that Trump acts like a spoiled 3rd grader and it appears since he surrounded himself with sycophants nobody is willing to tell him to shut the f up for once. I believe he even said his biggest regret from his first term was hiring people who stood up to him or told him no.
Trump's stubbornness is almost legendary. His mode of action is almost always double down, be perceived as the 'stronger' man and (attempt to) intimidate any adversary. Friend or foe. At some point, somebody will step up and criticize him and his response will predictably be over the top. Like threatening to primary Thomas Massie for not voting for the CR. There is only the present. Future consequences of present actions simply don't matter.
Again are we supposed to ignore the tariffs and restrictions the EU has slapped on American goods, especially agricultural, for decades? How would you address them? Ask them pretty please (which they've tried for decades and the EU keeps raising tariffs and restricting US goods even more out of pure protectionism).
Yes, you nimrod. Their borders, their decision to fuck over their own citizens with tariffs and quotas.
Unless you've suddenly come around to the side which says borders don't count.
They aren't just fucking over their citizens though. They're fucking over our producers as well or are you and Sarc to stupid to understand that? Wheat is $3 a bushel right now. Break even is like $5 a bushel. They're fucking us over to dipshits. Fuck you people are morons. Muh free trade. Like it's some sort of totem. Yeah they can do what they like with their borders doesn't mean we have to take in their goods too. Right idiot?
They're fucking over our producers as well or are you and Sarc to stupid to understand that?
We understand that just fine.
Using protectionist logic, we should have never allowed people to use cars because that put buggy whip makers and street sweepers out of business.
Man that's even dumber than usual. Replacing one good with new technology is not protectionism, that Luddism. You don't even know the correct terms moron.
Ok, not the best analogy.
The point is that you want to increase the prices that everyone (including you) pays for things in order to punish foreign governments and protect domestic industry.
I think that's stupid.
But we aren't increasing the prices since every one of the goods is already domestically produced, and already cheaper produced and of the same and often better quality. There is nothing that is being tariffed that isn't already domestically produced, cheaper.
There is nothing that is being tariffed that isn't already domestically produced, cheaper.
In that case why have tariffs at all?
You're wrong about tariffs not increasing prices. They not only increase the prices of imports, but they allow domestic producers to increase prices as well, so long as they keep them below the price of the tariffed import. That means we all pay more. The only people who benefit are politicians and their cronies.
Tell me you know nothing about commodities without telling me you know nothing about commodities.
You do realize we live in a multilateral world, right?
I know some, but I'm sure you know more. What I think I know is that if your government slaps a tariff on a commodity from country A, but not country B, then the producers in country A are kind of fucked because everyone is selling the stuff at the same price. Am I close?
Only partially correct. They also make the commodity price decrease dramatically, because now country A has an artificial surplus, which means the buyers are going to bid less for it. If the price goes low enough, producers stop producing it, which boomerangs into really high prices, which even the citizens of Country A are going to have to pay because the producers in Country A stopped producing commodity X, or severely limited it. But it is even worse with agriculture because some areas are only suitable for certain crops, and different crops require different rotations (e.g. you shouldn't plant pulse crops closer than three years apart). So, if wheat prices go to low, the producer is either going to rely on subsidized insurance to keep in business, or not plant (which is also subsidized). Or sell out. Hopefully to another producer, but depending on the location just as likely to developer. And, while creative destruction is generally a good thing in economics, not so much with food production. For example if, say all the producers in the Southern plains stop producing wheat, and we just have the producers on the Northern Plains (it's actually more likely to go the other way, since the Southern plains are irrigated while the northern plains are mostly dry land) and we have a drought on the northern plains (which is a common occurrence) then we have no slack to take up the loss of production (and even in irrigated crops, drought adversely effects production).
Thank you for the civil response.
Since when does the EU have any duty to help Americans, to not fuck them over? Does that mean America has the same obligation to not fuck over EU producers?
Make up your mind.
Fuck, I think you're being purposely obtuse now. No, the EU doesn't have a duty to help Americans but the American government sure the fuck does. Fuck, that isn't even hard to understand. You're crying about what the American government has done because of the EUs actions. You're complaining about the US government trying to help out American producers. I think you're being purposely disingenuous now.
Since when do we have any duty to help EU producers? Our government has a duty to our citizens, and only to our citizens.
You are correct.
Again are we supposed to ignore the tariffs and restrictions the EU has slapped on American goods, especially agricultural, for decades?
What they're doing is raising the prices that their people have to pay for imports. You're saying that that's not fair, so our government needs to raise the prices that we pay for imports. You really don't see the stupidity in that?
For your information they not only raise the prices, they outright ban the importation of a lot of American agricultural goods idiot.
Know why shoes are so expensive? Protective tariffs to keep one company, New Balance, in business.
Know why you don't see European trucks on the road? Protective tariffs that allows Ford and others to raise the prices of their trucks.
Our government does the same thing.
Not even close to the extent that the EU does. And is we plenty of Mercedes trucks on the roads. And fuck, for that sake, the US government actually helped sell an American auto maker to a European company. Another bad example from you. And for your information, it's easier to ship a Mercedes Benz commercial truck to the US than to ship a Ford commercial truck to the EU. Even before the EU existed they were severely restricting US auto exports and requiring the majority of them sold to be produced in Europe. They started that shit soon after WW2 ended to 'protect their industries', while we allowed almost unlimited imports as part of the Marshall plan. So, another bad example by you.
I should have put a qualifier between "see" and "European". Doesn't make me wrong though. Those trucks are much more expensive than they would be without the tariffs.
And as I've been saying over and over, EU rules that make things more expensive for people who live in the EU doesn't mean that we're better off when our government makes things more expensive for us.
I seriously don't understand why you're defending higher prices for everyone. I just don't.
Because the prices won't be higher. Unless you have to drink a German made heifenweisen instead of an American brewed heifenweisen. It's not going to hurt Americans consumers.
Say we start with the German wheat beer being sold for ten bucks a six, and the American brewery has to get eleven to stay in business. Slap a tariff on the Germen brew and it now costs fifteen. The American producer can now raise their price to fourteen and still be the cheaper option.
That's one reason why producers love tariffs.
Except that isn't even close to what is happening here. Not even by a long shot. You don't even know what you're arguing now. Both you and stupid government trucks and Eric aren't even aware of what you are arguing. No, US wheat beer cost American producers $5 a six pack but they can't sell it in Europe or they have a 50% tariff on it. German wheat beer costs$9 a six pack already, but because of the EU rules, Trump is now saying it will cost $18 a six pack until they allow our goods to sell in their country. You don't have to pay more for American wheat beer. Just for German wheat beer.
I was pulling numbers out of my ass to make a point, which is that domestic producers raise prices when tariffs make the competition artificially expensive.
What domestic producers can sell in Europe DOES NOT MATTER when you're trying to make your paycheck stretch as far as it can.
What matters for consumers is what the prices are right now.
And if that is the case they'll buy American because American is cheaper.
I've done my best to look at this from your point of view which is that of a producer, and I've acknowledged your concerns. I try to figure out where someone is coming from, even if I don't agree. The least you could to is look at this from the point of view of a free trader who puts consumers before producers. Not asking you to agree, and I don't think you will because you're self interest is that of a producer. But you could at least take that hat off for a minute and pretend to be a consumer (which you are) and look at trade from that point of view for a minute. Minus the contempt.
As a consumer it doesn't impact you is what I'm telling you. Because American produce the same products and it's cheaper. I've said that multiple times. Eric even admitted we produce the same products with the same quality, if not better, for cheaper, but his gripe is that he wants to buy European goods just because they are European, not because they are better or cheaper. From a strictly consumer standpoint, this isn't going to cost you a single dime more unless you insist on buying only European Vodka or Beer instead of the same stuff produced in America.
And that's your right. But don't whine about it hurting consumers since we already have cheaper, better quality, domestically produced product. So if price is the only concern it's overblown.
When the price of foreign vodka or beer goes up due to tariffs, then domestic producers can take that as an opportunity to raise their own prices. If the price of the competition goes up to X dollars, why would you keep your price the same? You can raise it to something less than X and still be cheaper. Which was my point in my wheat beer comment.
Again, producers love tariffs. They shield them from competition and allow them to keep or raise prices without having to innovate or improve.
The rest of us get nickeled and dimed to death.
Except it really doesn't work that way, since you're comparing luxury items to every day purchases. Domestic Vodka producers aren't really competing with European distillers because not enough European Vodka is sold in the US because it's a luxury item that is already overpriced.
Soldier, you’re wasting your energy here. Sarc is incapable of rationality. Just like he is with open borders. We need to all put him on ignore. He likes negative attention too much.
not enough European Vodka is sold in the US because it's a luxury item that is already overpriced.
I sitting here right now drinking a bottle of Swedish vodka. It's priced lower than premium domestic vodka.
No need for imports, Daimler (Mercedes) owns Freightliner and Volvo owns Mack, Volvo also took control of White and Autocar trucks. VW owns Traton who owns Navistar formerly International Harvester
We need Navistar to provide employment for Haitians.
We know why. Ask the Germans why they felt the need to slap a tariff on our chicken products first.
No Taxation without Representation. Only Congress has the authority to levy taxes, anything else is naked theft. Our founders wisely put that authority in the hands of the many since taxation is one of the most destructive forces the government has in its arsenal.
Sure.
Peter Suderman hardest hit.
In all these threads is is always easy to tell who actually participates in markets, produces, and actually is involved in international markets.
They are the same people who stopped learning at the propaganda claiming advantaged (what unilateral is) trade is free trade. They have zero interest in reality, only simplified discussions of theory. They all believe trade analysis and study stopped nearly 100 years ago. They believe all actual analysis of current systems has less value than their theories.
Theyre basically intentionally ignorant because they just "know" and will dismiss anything that doesn't support their theory despite the evidence being present.
It is quite hilarious. They all talk like high school kids who read their first economics book and they know everything.
Indeed. This is also why we all should block Sarc.
Hasn't everyone blocked Sarc?
Not yet. Need to get everyone in on it.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
Only leftists think the Constitution matters. Just ask any Trump defender. Besides, Democrats did it first. Whatever "it" is, Democrats did it first. But more importantly, you didn't complain. How do we know this? Because party people don't diss their own, and everyone is a Republican or a Democrat. So if you criticize Republicans, you're a Democrat. Q. E. motherfucking D.
Maybe you should actually continue reading
The U.S. Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate foreign commerce, impose import tariffs, and raise revenue. Congress, in turn, has enacted laws giving the President the authority to impose tariffs under certain conditions. Courts have generally upheld these laws against constitutional challenges, holding that they do not impermissibly delegate Congress's legislative power over tariffs to the executive branch.
Source Congress.Gov
Oh no, like customer choices won't change. Less foreign products brought are end of the world!
Never noticed Reason complaining about other country tariffs just the US. Wait, it's a VAT in Europe right so that's ok?
Funny, Trump using tariffs as a weapon/negotiating tool is getting results huh?