NATO Could Effectively Die This June
Trump's negotiations and German elections may augur the end of collective security as we've known it.

Libertarians, progressives, and national conservatives who've been pining for a de-Americanization of European military security are experiencing their most newsworthy week on that front in at least three decades.
The Trump administration's ongoing negotiations and public messaging around a potential Russia-Ukraine peace deal, along with the weekend electoral victory of Germany's Christian Democratic Union (CDU), have led to the bluntest talk since April 1993 about a future without Washington's mutual defense commitments to the easternmost members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
"My absolute priority will be to strengthen Europe as quickly as possible so that, step by step, we can really achieve independence from the U.S.A.," presumptive German chancellor Friedrich Merz said just after his long-prominent CDU—along with its Bavaria-only partner, the Christian Social Union—beat out the White House-favored Alternative for Germany* (AfD), 28.6 percent to 20.8 percent. "I never thought I would have to say something like this….But after [President] Donald Trump's statements last week at the latest, it is clear that the Americans—at least this part of the Americans, this administration—are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe."
Trump's recent statements and actions have included blaming NATO expansion for Russia's invasion of Ukraine ("That's probably the reason the whole thing started," he said Wednesday), rejecting a G7 statement criticizing Russia as the "aggressor," joining a rogue's gallery of international authoritarians in voting against a United Nations resolution condemning Russia and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity, telling Ukrainian Prime Minister Volodymyr Zelensky, "You should have never started it," and browbeating Kyiv into an agreement to exploit mineral rights. In advance of serious ceasefire negotiations, Washington has already floated Russian sanctions relief and diplomatic normalization while ruling out U.S. peacekeeping troops and Ukrainian NATO membership.
Vice President J.D. Vance and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth fanned out to European capitals this month delivering what Hegseth characterized as a "stark" message to America's treaty allies: "Now is the time to invest [in defense], because you can't make an assumption that America's presence will last forever."
Rhetorically, anyway, the message appears to have sunk in. Prior to each embarking to Washington this week for Ukraine-focused meetings with Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron and British Prime Minister Keir Starmer announced significant ramp-ups in defense spending—from 2 percent to 5 percent (conditionally) in Macron's case, and from 2 percent to 2.5 percent up toward 3 percent in Starmer's.
"[The] transatlantic relationship," former NATO secretary-general (2009-2014) Anders Fogh Rasmussen wrote in The Economist this week, "is crumbling before our eyes….After 80 years of American-backed security, we Europeans must now shoulder the burden of securing peace on our own continent."
That realization has come three years—and three decades—too late. Like domestic neoconservatives who didn't understand why we couldn't just keep troops in Iraq until the 22nd century, European policymakers have long acted as if American money, weaponry, and public sentiment would never run out. This has allowed them to spend less money on defense, and more time criticizing Washington leadership from the sidelines.
"I'm…pleased," Trump said at a joint press conference with the French leader this week, "that President Macron agrees that the cost and burden of securing the peace must be borne by the nations of Europe, not alone by the United States. And Europe must take that central role in ensuring long-term security of Ukraine."
But the details of this aspirational burden-shifting are filled with more land mines than Ukraine's farmland, beginning with the three-headed beast of putative policy deciders (France, Germany, and the U.K.) that make the trolls in The Hobbit look cooperative by comparison.
That troika of former combatants is a main reason why NATO persisted and then expanded after the end of the Cold War. Prior to Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, the last time the European continent saw widespread bloodshed was the collapse and resulting ethnic/separatist wars of former Yugoslavia, to which London/Paris/Bonn had diametrically opposing approaches from one another. Roughly, France wanted to keep the old country together, Germany sped toward recognition of breakaway Slovenia and Croatia, and the U.K. pushed for peacekeeping troops; meanwhile, tens of thousands were killed, including a shocking number of unarmed civilians.
The internecine carnage only ceased after aggressive U.S. military and diplomatic intervention, leading many—including Central European leaders who had initially sought a security feature absent from both Moscow and Washington—to conclude that America post-Cold War was, in Madeline Albright's fateful words, the "indispensable nation."
So are the European Union's three pillars ready to assume some real-world responsibility? Don't count your chickens yet.
Macron, reinforcing the long tradition of French exceptionalism within NATO, has for years been pushing for a Gallic-led European successor bloc to the transatlantic alliance's critical function as a security guarantor. Until very recently, Germany and England have balked, due to a mixture of Franco-wariness and a desire to nurture the special relationships with Washington. Meanwhile, the French president has mastered the art of simultaneously talking tough while always managing to not spend overly significant money and manpower on European defense, all while both flattering Trump and trying to play him.
In his visit to Washington this week, Macron, out of one side of his mouth, continuously stressed European-provided "security guarantees" for Ukraine, while, out of the other, he spoke of American "solidarity" with those guarantees in such a way that would ensure French troops wouldn't have to actually enforce much of anything:
We want peace swiftly, but we don't want an agreement that is weak. The fact that there are Europeans that are ready to engage to provide for these security guarantees, and now there's a clear American message that the U.S. as an ally is ready to provide that solidarity for that approach. That's a turning point in my view.
Today when we talk about troops, we're talking about sending them in after we've negotiated a lasting peace. And once we have that solid lasting peace, that's part of an agreement signed by Ukraine, signed by Russia and for which we will provide the guarantees.
[W]e've worked with our militaries not to go to the front lines, not to go into occupied territories, but as a show of support to show that we have a negotiated peace signed by both sides and that is a peace we will preserve.
So, these would be peaceful deployments of troops, not for combat. These would be deployments of an assurance force, they would be limited, but they show solidarity.
The question is whether—or in what form the US will contribute….We need to answer this call for Europeans to be more engaged and Americans will be there still in solidarity.
Then there is the not-insignificant problem of an eight-decade buildup of American-led dominance on strategy, military technology, and nuclear weapons.
"Europe must…ensure it can act independently of America. This will require significant investments in capabilities such as air [defense], refuelling and other logistics that sustain military operations—and for which Europe is almost entirely reliant on America," Rasmussen wrote. "Roughly 80% of its [defense] procurement is from outside Europe—primarily from the United States. Europe's [defense] companies, spread across different countries and reliant on small national orders, lack the scale required to compete with their American counterparts. As a result, the continent produces less of what it needs—often at a greater cost. This must change quickly."
Depending on Trump's negotiations with Russia, those changes could happen more quickly than people think. Having effectively granted Moscow a veto over its independent neighbors seeking to join the only multinational organization that has thus far been able to provide the security guarantee of a mutual defense pact, the president could conceivably walk back from NATO's Article 5 assurances of defending members from attack, which is already sending tremors across the Baltics and other Russia-bordering nations. (On Thursday, Trump said of Article 5, "I support it….I don't think we're going to have any reason for it.")
Germany's Merz, for one, is talking as if Article 5 is indeed dead.
"I am very curious to see how we are heading toward the NATO summit at the end of June," Merz said after the election. "Whether we will still be talking about NATO in its current form, or whether we will have to establish an independent European defense capability much more quickly."
- CORRECTION: Originally misstated as "Alliance for Democracy."
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Hey, I've got an idea. Let's tell these countries that have a historical habit of going to war with each other to engage in a massive military build up. What could possibly go wrong?
How about we just keep our noses out of it as we should’ve in WWI and let them come to their conclusion. We are not the world’s cop, the world’s peacekeeper, the world’s bank, nor the world’s white knight.
That would be OK. What is not OK is to try tying Ukraine's hands behind their back and delivering Ukraine to Putin. And that is what Trump is attempting to do. I can only wish him failure in that particular endeavor and punish him in 2026 by voting against him. And that's precisely what I'll do.
I agree with the cuts, abolishing USAID and the need to make the government more efficient but I don't agree with growing chummy with brutal dictators like Putin. That is off limits, as far as I am concerned. And yes, I voted for him, reluctantly, because I believe that he will fix the economy. If he doesn't, I have no reason to support him any further.
Let them have their fun. Europe's strongest Navy can barely operate their TWO aircraft carriers. I don't expect we're going to having to fight them on the beaches.
Wow, even for this sarc has to disagree with Trump. Truly amazing really.
If Trump cured cancer, Sarc would defend the tumors.
Sarc would denounce job losses among oncologists.
What a bizarre take. Why the fuck shouldn't these countries provide for their own defense?
I'd also question where the COLLECTIVE security is. Seems like it's the US as the person doing all of the heavy lifting.
If Canada invades us, I'm sure Belgium will be the first to send troops. Probably to assist Canada.
Hahahaha.
Fucking moron. Not our responsibility you neocon fuck.
Didn't say it was, dipshit. Just pointing out the fact that when countries in Europe have big militaries they have a habit of starting world wars. That's all.
What a weasel.
Ok, so why the fuck should we give two shits? That’s their problem, not ours.
A Europe problem. Not a US problem. Let them kill themselves.
And when countries have mutual defense treaties, small wars have a habit of turning into world wars.
NATO was to defend the world from the USSR.
What USSR? you might ask.
How much money was spent maintaining the Maginot Line once it was breached and no longer relevant?
I would suggest we assemble representatives from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Ukraine to discuss how useful NATO actually was in deterring aggression in Europe..
The EU becomes more like the USSR with each passing day.
Russia would not have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine was in NATO.
The prospect of Russian aggression is the very reason why Ukraine was discourage from joining NATO. We don't recognize Taiwan as an independent country for similar reason.
Russia used the threat of (and actual) invasion to bully Ukraine not to join NATO. Russia never would have attacked after Ukraine joined NATO.
Maybe letting you enemies dictate who you can't have an alliance with is a bad idea.
Yet we do it.
Ukraine potentially being entered into NATO is why it was invaded.
An earlier entry would have just precipitated the invasion earlier.
Also, did we not learn anything from WW1? You know, the war that kicked off because of a nasty web of mutual defense obligations spiraling out of control, dragging everyone down?
What could have been a short, sharp, conflict between a couple nations . . .
WW I would have been a repeat of 1870 if not for all those entangling alliances.
The US would have stayed out if not for Wilson encouraging the East Coast elite crowd to loan money to Britain to buy weapons they made, knowing Wilson would not let Britain and France lose and default on their loans.
Wilson should be on the short list of worst presidents ever -- the income tax and the Fed were also launched on his watch.
Europe's [defense] companies, spread across different countries and reliant on small national orders, lack the scale required to compete with their American counterparts. As a result, the continent produces less of what it needs—often at a greater cost. This must change quickly."
This is entirely a different concern, though. I have zero problem with American defense contractors and weapons makers SELLING equipment in Europe. The biggest problem is that they rely so heavily on America to just shoulder the entire burden of defending them, from giving them the equipment for free and also using American manpower, and having Americans go through every step of training them to use equipment.
Biden had Americans basically setting up missile installations in Ukraine and going through every single step of aligning them, targeting them, up to excluding the final last step of having some doofus push a single button. At that point, the Ukrainians are just outsourcing the war apparatus to us. Much of Europe's defense network is structured like this.
“I have zero problem with American defense contractors and weapons makers SELLING equipment in Europe.”
Agreed.
They didn't press the buttons, though, did they?
I have zero problem with American defense contractors and weapons makers SELLING equipment in Europe.
That's certainly the basis for '% of GDP' as a target for spending/corruption. But that's the last thing Europe should be doing. You don't build a secure state by buying weapons from an unreliable 'ally'.
They’re also welcome to build up their own defense industry. But if they can’t compete in the world market, if American equipment is better, more reliable, and available at lower cost, they SHOULD buy American weapons and defense systems.
If the concern is the United States might end up refusing to sell weapons because we prefer their enemies to them, that’s a diplomatic issue rather than a manufacturing one. It doesn’t behoove Europe to piss off the people supplying arms to them, but they tend to take hostile attitudes toward subsets of American values, like free speech.
I'd happily withdraw from this entire suicide pact altogether and let these tards kill each other. We need to be focusing on shit going on in our own hemisphere, not letting a bunch of neomarxist mooches act like they can tell us what's what.
Agreed. They need to grow up.
They don't need to "compete on the world market". They need to:
a) defend against Russia re big ticket MIC stuff. Which might include nukes but there's a lot of different approaches for that particular issue.
b) produce a whole bunch of the small arms and ammo/artillery if Russia does attack.
The US has completely corrupted itself re starting permawars and creating insecurity around the world for the purpose of creating world markets for the MIC. That will be the death of the US and there is no reason for anyone else to go down that path (even if the French and Brits may want that)
You do if you buy enough weapons.
If you don't have enough weapons then even if they're produced at home it does you no good - domestic production is only useful for long-duration conflicts, everything else is settled by the depth of your magazines. The shorter your mags, the more likely you're going to get drug into a protracted conflict because you can't decisively end it.
See: Russia invading Ukraine.
See: Ukraine depending on weapons from the US until the US decides they don't want to supply weapons anymore because they want to switch sides
“….because they want to switch sides.”
JFC, what an idiot. Lol.
Not surprised though, since you’re one of those “not giving me what I want is taking from me” kind of assholes.
Must suck to be you.
The USA has shouldered the burden of defending Europe since the end of WW2. That is damn near eight decades. It has been the USA that has provided most of the money, the weapons and the actual soldiers. In what way has the USA been unreliable?
In contrast most of the time during those eight decades our "allies" have failed to meet their financial obligations, their personnel obligations and constantly criticized the USA. I even remember our NATO "allies" making USA military operations more difficult on occasion ( such as when the USA bombed Khadaffi's Libya and France would not allow USA bombers based in England from flying over France adding over a thousand miles to the run).
The fact that the USA is getting tired of being a patsy doesn't make the USA unreliable
We have not shouldered a burden. Everything we did - and have always done - was in our interest not Europe's. Further, most of what we have supplied to Ukraine in this war is the equipment that was supplied during the Cold War. Almost nothing (x maybe some ammo/shells) has been sent to Ukraine from the US or outside NATO. You can't count that equipment twice. We had 30 years of getting that stuff out of Europe. We chose not to. That is not Ukraine's fault.
And withdrawing from NATO - or switching sides to Putin mid-fight - is completely our decision. But if you think the way we have done either of those serves our interest or projects reliability, you are deluded.
Who has provided a majority of the financing for defense of Europe? The USA has.
Who has maintained well trained and equipped troops in Europe for the last 8 decades?
The USA has.
Who has done most of the actual fighting when it has been needed to protect Europe's security?
The USA has.
The European nations in NATO have consistently failed to meet their treaty obligations. They have underfunded and under prepared their soldiers. That is why they are soiling themselves that the USA might leave NATO. Even if the European NATO members took their military needs seriously starting tomorrow I predict it would take at least a full decade before their militaries were worth jack and that would require buying a whole lot of military equipment from the USA (and that will require more than doubling their budgets).
"Washington's mutual defense commitments to the easternmost members of the North Alliance Treaty Organization (NATO)"
Matt better make an appointment with a geriatric neurologist.
"It is clear that the Americans are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe." - Merz
This is a false statement and Merz should be ashamed of himself! Even Trump and his Administration are not even remotely "indifferent" to the fate of Europe. Most Americans are either very positive about Europe or very, VERY negative about Europe, but not indifferent. There was no NATO even in existence before World War Two when Americans rallied to defeat the Nazi invasion of Europe. NATO came into existence to oppose the Warsaw Pact after FDR and Truman ceded eastern Europe to Russia for no apparent reason except that they were commie-lovers. The Warsaw Pact dissolved a very long time ago and NATO did not - probably because of the catastrophically failed doctrine of American Exceptionalism. The timing for our pull-out from NATO could not be worse as far as messaging about Russian adventurism in Ukraine, but it is still very, VERY overdue. Europe has (or had) all the resources necessary to provide for its own defense and determine its own foreign policy concerning Russia, but instead engaged in a cowardly - and profitable - deference to American "leadership." It may be unfortunate that they think we don't care about their fate, but it's 'way past time for them to grow up and grow a pair.
Russia is imperialistic and poisonous. Russia did not have to invade Ukraine. Russia doesn't have to invade Georgia, Latvia, Poland, Bulgaria, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Lithuania, Estonia, Moldova, Finland or Norway. However, it could. None of those countries have the military power of Russia. If the U.S. pulls out of NATO some of those are next for Russian ambitions. Probably the ex-USSR nations who are not friendly to Russia like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.
Ukraine used to have the largest army in Europe, until Biden and Boris told Zelensky, "You don't need to sit down on a peace deal, keep fighting, you have a blank check."
Red, that's pure revisionist bullshit! After the breakup of the Warsaw Pact and the fall of the USSR, America convinced Ukraine to abandon their nuclear deterrent in the name of an idiotic aspirational "anti-Nuclear Proliferation" and nuclear disarmament narrative by promising false guarantees of western protection of Ukraine's sovereignty. That gave Putin a clear invitation to test that guarantee. It would have been a no-lose situation for him. If America backed up the guarantee he could hold his gains and negotiate a peace with "NATO" and if his invasion succeeded, he would have all of Ukraine. Unfortunately for him he was wrong and there was a third alternative: a stalemate revealing just how impotent his military actually was.
Inconvenient facts: the nukes Ukraine 'gave up' were Soviet missiles and they didn't have the launch codes. They only had administrative access. Congress never approved the security guarantees.
Russia spent 3 years trying to conquer Ukraine and made very limited headway. Their antiquated weapons were clearly outmatched, and they ran out of trained troops so fast they had to send food to North Korea to get some conscripts on loan. Russia is not the USSR, a threat to roll across Europe in a few weeks.
If there's a silver lining to this catastrophe, it's that Putin unwittingly revealed the paper tiger-hood of his vaunted military that the West feared unnecessarily for decades. I don't know who was more surprised - Putin or the idiotic American foreign policy "experts."
After 80 years of American-backed security, we Europeans must now shoulder the burden of securing peace on our own continent.
Isn't that like saying, "We should really do something about those deck chairs," as the Titanic sinks?
Newsflash - Europe will never secure peace on their own continent. The enemy is already within the gates. They didn't even have to hide in a big wooden horse - France, Germany, UK, all of them LET the enemy in and encouraged them to entrench and opened their halls of power to them, and forbade anyone from speaking ill of it.
That being said, America shouldn't be indifferent to the fate of Europe. At some point we're going to have to go deal with that mess - because the European Caliphates are no different than the Middle Eastern ones. All they care about is purging the world of their "great satan" (us) and killing anyone who doesn't unconditionally submit to their 3rd century "culture."
AT, I don't understand how one person could be so wrong about everything everywhere all at once - unless you're just a very transparent troll. America does not now and never has had to "go deal with" the caliphates anywhere else in the world. American exceptionalism has always been a failed policy, and was simply an excuse for American imperialists to engage in adventurism, profit and personal power and glory. Even the Empire of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was direct result of American meddling in Far East wars and politics. We should stop meddling - immediately and forever.
American exceptionalism has always been a failed policy
Are Americans not exceptional? Who is?
an excuse for American imperialists to engage in adventurism, profit and personal power and glory
You say that like it's a bad thing. Why?
We should stop meddling - immediately and forever.
I agree, assuming by "meddling" you meant "pussyfooting." Because that's what we do. We pussyfoot this stuff. Yea, MWA, we WILL have to go deal with the Islamists at some point. Because they hate us and exist for no reason but to kill anyone who isn't them. They WILL have to be dealt with.
But instead of pussyfooting around it like we did throughout the War on Terror, we should be decisive and brutal. Doesn't mean we have to be reckless or indifferent as we execute - we can be as surgical as Israel was with Hamas. But at some point we WILL have to go kill all those SOBs. Because they are NEVER going to evolve and get with the first world. Not ever.
And we're going to have to deal with China at some point too. Let's not kid ourselves. If they're not brought to heel within 50 years, then your kids or their kids are going to be eating their Cheerios with chopsticks.
Holy Shit! Trumpo is absolutely reaming Zelensky right now on live television! Says he's gambling with world war 3 and he has no cards. This is fucking epic.
The US is dead to the rest of the world now. This will take generations for the US to recover whatever diplomatic credibility it has remaining. China just won HUGE today.
Found the globalist lying about being a libertarian.
JFree - if so, and I hope you're right, I am very glad that the US is "dead to the rest of the world" now! I don't want the US to recover any diplomatic credibility at all. What I want is for the US to defend itself effectively against any and all foreign military attacks AND NOTHING ELSE. We should withdraw all of our ambassadors, close all of our embassies, allow Americans to trade with anyone they want to trade with under whatever terms they find to be profitable AT THEIR OWN RISK. We should end all entangling alliances and all treaties. There are no "vital national interests" anywhere else in the world that I want to waste American lives and resources to protect.
The US is not going to retreat to the US. It is going to dick around everywhere except the US - and then when SHTF we will find we have no allies or friends.
You say that as if our 'allies and friends' have been worth dick in the past 80 years, which is not in evidence. How could they be worth anything when their militaries are small, underfunded, and the weapons they field are ours.
Yeah, the US might 'dick around' but do you really think the UK or Germany would be any help whatsoever if we went to war with China tomorrow? That's laughable. We certainly don't need their help to 'dick around' in the 3rd world which is where most of the 'dicking' occurs.
You say that as if our 'allies and friends' have been worth dick in the past 80 years, which is not in evidence.
Korean War - 15 countries apart from SKorea and US sent troops
Vietnam War - 7 countries apart from SE Asia sent troops
Gulf War 1 - 42 countries outside the region sent troops
Somalia - 7 countries outside the region sent troops
Iraq War - 40 countries outside the region sent troops (incl Ukraine)
Afghanistan - 41 countries outside the region sent troops (incl Ukraine)
These are wars where everyone else could have quite literally sat on their butts. There was no threat to any of them. No reason whatsoever to get involved. They get literally no benefit out of getting involved. They aren't the big swinging dick empire that wants to run the world.
If you believe the US will simply choose to not get involved if we have no allies, you're wrong. Those countries deliberately pick secondary roles. It is the US that chooses to dick around everywhere. Not having allies or friends merely means the US will find itself overcommitted - and will end up like every other empire in history when it loses all its allies and friends and supply lines and knowledge of terrain/opposition and support in diplomatic circles to prevent enemies from gathering forces.
Your arrogance and ignorance of history is - not at all surprising.
do you really think the UK or Germany would be any help whatsoever if we went to war with China tomorrow?
Specifically re China. The UK has a silly nostalgia about the US (and Hong Kong I guess) and would likely join the US if we went to war with China. There is ZERO reason why the Europeans would want to be involved. And more economic reasons for them to ally with the Chinese than with the US. That doesn't mean they would actually ally with China - but to a major degree the role of allies is preventive too.
Here's another example. Trump himself doesn't seem to want war with Iran - but everyone else in his administration - and Netanyahu - and the Israel lobby - and more than a few commenters here - does. What does that look like without allies/friends (apart from obviously Israel)?
"NATO Could Effectively Die This June."
Sounds good to me.
Let the European socialists pay for their own defense with their own money, sons and daughters instead of America's.
Oh no!
The continent responsible for two world wars must now secure their own means to commit their recurring carnage. What an outrage.
The people offended by that notion are weapons grade retarded.
See the first post of the thread for example.
3 world wars. Possibly 4 if you want to count the 7 Years War.
My absolute priority will be to strengthen Europe as quickly as possible so that, step by step, we can really achieve independence from the U.S.A
Well maybe you all can stop talking and start doing.
Die NATO, DIE!
Actually German for "The BATO, The"
"NATO Could Effectively Die This June"
Not nearly soon enough. Now disband the UN, or explain in specific terms, why not.
Re: Trump/Zelensky press conference today. Neocon talking heads in full freak out on Fox News. Can't wait for Petti's "libertarian" take.
Thus far I compare the first month of Trump's administration to prey animals giving birth in synchrony; they release so many young at the same time that there is no possibility of predators eating all of them.
Opponents and media are overwhelmed and it can't all fit into their allotted feed.
The Dispatch crowd is absolutely losing their mind over it. I honestly wish we could drop all of them in the Donbas to get progress at 2500 fps.
It was probably a setup from the start.. The thug arrives in sweatshirt, then starts yapping about the war coming to U.S. soil. Gives the WEF and Pravda something to carry on about until the midterms.
He's been doing that for two years now, though. It was indulged by the neocons and the previous administration because he was always their puppet anyway, and it gave them a jolly to think a loud manlet ex-actor was pushing Putin around.
I more suspect that Trump's the one who actually set this all up because he wants to get the fuck out of there completely, not even the $500 billion minerals deal, and getting into a kayfabe screaming match with Zelensky offers as good of an excuse as any.
I more suspect that Trump's the one who actually set this all up because he wants to get the fuck out of there completely, not even the $500 billion minerals deal, and getting into a kayfabe screaming match with Zelensky offers as good of an excuse as any.
I think he's going to stroll out of NATO and leave Ukraine to whatever fate they desire and, if he can, take mineral wealth from Ukraine, Russia, or both with him.
If he came back from the future with this plan it would be an insanely meta life imitating art imitating art story line that could only exist in real life.
Of course Trump set this up. It was a mugging to sacrifice Ukraine in order to try to appeal to Putin. But Trump just lost virtually every ally and friend the US has in the world. China gained big. And Putin is gonna view Trump with contempt.
Worst negotiator ever.
But Trump just lost virtually every ally and friend the US has in the world.
Maybe those "allies and friends" need to find another paypiggie, instead of mooching off of us like Phillip Rearden.
Our three largest troop deployments outside Europe are Japan, South Korea, and Bahrain. Our three largest military aid recipients over the last decade are Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Name ONE that is not mooching off us.
When it comes to military spending, the US spends more than everyone else in the world combined. That is not evidence we are mooching off them. It is evidence we are spending mostly as a cronyist subsidy to MIC
Maybe those "allies and friends" need to find another paypiggie, instead of mooching off of us like Phillip Rearden.
Maybe those "allies and friends" need to find another paypiggie, instead of mooching off of us like Phillip Rearden.
How did they mooch off us re Afghanistan or Iraq? The reality is that it was NATO that supported the US post9/11 - not the reverse. Despite the fact that 9/11 was almost entirely blowback for the shit the US has been doing in the Middle East (non-NATO area)
They said nice words but most of NATO did only the bare minimum when it came to supporting the USA military operations. Basically their support amounted to little more than REMF support and very little military action.
There is no legitimate bare minimum for a NATO action in Afghanistan. That's 10,000 miles away from NATO. The sole purpose of putting a NATO label on anything there was to get a subsidy for the US
Vance channeled his inner Mamaw. He picked up on this little mafia thugs disrespect to the honor of the office and American people. It’s the opening of Hillbilly Elegy recounting his grandparents behavior in the toy store. Trump didn’t pick up on it right away, but damn…Vance is sharp and focused when it comes to territorial pissing.
What the fuck does this even mean? Zelensky should have walked right over and bitch slapped him square in his jaw after his pathetic lecture. He was basically demanding Zelensky prostrate himself and beg for charity. F that noise. They are fighting for national survival and Vance, representing all of the US, is bitching about Zelensky visiting some plant in PA that produced weapons to defend themselves. Massively tone deaf and he came off like a whiny bitch when Zelesnky asked him if he has been to Ukraine and Vance is talking about briefings and photos. Truly pathetic response.
The dude came begging for money and blew it.
Worse: The little Deep State puppet came with instructions to create an international shit-storm and succeeded. A clear attempt to divide the opposition to their forever wars. And then there's this - rumor perhaps, but surely would not surprise me if it were true. Besides, Mark Stein is always entertaining:
https://www.steynonline.com/15074/suitless-in-sukatown
And here's some more: If Deep State puppet Zelensky had any desire what-so-ever for peace he would have made that clear a LONG time ago. He could have told Deep State puppet Joe Biden and all the neocons to go straight to hell for their part in discouraging (forbidding?) peace talks.
Globalist Fascist Pigs all the way down. And they're literally SCREAMING for more war! You can't make this shit up! FFS I can still remember a time in history when there was an actual anti-war movement.
He came to negotiate security guarantees as part of the 'rare earth' minerals and oil deal Trump wants. Zelensky's point is simple. Putin does not honor agreements, he is untrustworthy, he is a killer and a ceasefire without security for Ukraine means Ukraine is at risk of Putin violating it just like after they took Crimea. Without security guarantees; the Trump mineral deal means nothing to Ukraine and is worthless. What is Vance or Trump's response?? Sign the deal w/out security guarantees. F that. I would've walked out on that as well.
I said this to Zeb yesterday. Zelensky is the chump at the poker table.
Zeb wants a US withdrawal from the Ukraine conflict. I don't exactly disagree or blame him. At the same time, and I stated in the other post both Putin and Trump are better poker players and you can easily wind up looking the fool betting against them.
To wit, if Trump pulls out of or (effectively) dissolves NATO and even strikes a deal for minerals with both/either the Ukraine and/or Russia, I don't know that I much care if Ukraine and Russia continue to duke it out or not as long as we aren't paying or overpaying for minerals we aren't receiving.
It was absolutely mindblowing watching a US President shout at a foreign dictator about sacrificing his peoples' lives in a war he can't win and being completely and sensibly grounded in doing so.
rogue's gallery of international authoritarians
Does this "rogue's gallery of international authoritarians" include Emmanuel Macron, Keir Starmer, Ursula Von Der Leyen, Olaf Sholz and probably a dozen other censorious, twitter-user-arresting, hate-speech-enacting, election-canceling, WWIII-starting, German-tanks-rolling-into-Ukraine fuckwits?
Vladimir Putin is a semi-illiterate thug who has managed to take down the United States with internet memes.
It’s just all so stupid.
How can your comment not be parody?
Idiocracy was satire. Until it became a sobering documentary.
But you’re just one of the extras at Buttfuckers, Tony.
Does that mean we can finally get this very necessary national divorce going
Considering your side of the relationship is mostly fentanyl-addicted government leeches, perhaps it is a good idea just to get you off your lazy stupid asses and do some work for a change.
We’re the ones working, asshole. You’re the leech.
Yes, lots of Trump bootlickers are all over the internet crying about how they lost their government jobs because Elon Musk snorted a line of coke and decided he was an expert at veteran healthcare.
Cite?
Is this standard leftist bullshit to deny reality and insert a narrative?
"Yes, lots of Trump bootlickers are all over the internet crying about how they lost their government jobs because Elon Musk snorted a line of coke and decided he was an expert at veteran healthcare."
More accurately, one or two claiming to be. But to TDS-addled lying piles of steaming lefty shit like this asshole, that's close enough.
Considering your side of the relationship is mostly coke-addled bougies and violent hood rats, perhaps it is a good idea just to get you of your lazy stupid asses and do some work for a change.
But I do appreciate you acting like an abusive spouse when your shortcomings are pointed out. Some Burning Bed-style retribution would suit us just fine.
This has got to be the most retarded comment here of the day, and that includes the crap from Sarcasmic and MollyGodiva.
Awwww, that is so sweet of you to say.
Fuck off and die, shit-pile.
Vladimir Putin is a semi-illiterate thug who has managed to take down the United States with internet memes.
What's interesting about this comment is that Putin didn't create the conflict in America with his hopelessly amateurish 2016 memes, left wingers did by pretending those memes changed the election outcome. It's not a surprise to anyone paying attention but the left proved then they would prefer to destroy America rather than accept a reduction in their power. It was so important to them to oppose Trump BAMN they turned Putin's idiocy into the most successful psyop campaign in history.
Nice job guys.
What's interesting about this comment is that Putin didn't create the conflict in America with his hopelessly amateurish 2016 memes, left wingers did by pretending those memes changed the election outcome
They've been pissed at him ever since he shut the queer cult out of the country in the mid-2000s.
It's more trans-cult, but similarly they are trying to overthrow democracy in Hungary also. That's one reason the left's pretense as the defenders of democracy here is so ridiculous. Although there's plenty of support for that hypocrisy given their support of Roe and the bureaucratic state.
Romania more than Hungary.
I am living through my seventh decade; this one is the most...interesting, by far.
Listening to JRE's current interview with Musk; we are literally at the point of bankruptcy, trillions of taxpayer dollars are unaccounted for, and there are thousands of NGOs operating as graft machines and funding everything from propaganda [primarily on behalf of Democrats] to transexual studies on animals. I don't think most people begin to realize how wild this revelation is, that is almost entirely being dismissed by MSM because it is contrary to their self interest. The Goliath [bureaucracy, media, political class] doesn't like this and I am wondering what they are going to do about/ in response to it.
How will the Goliath respond? I'm just as curious as you are. Aside from their never-ending propaganda and outright gaslighting, I suspect this buggering of the Epstein Files and today's spectacle featuring their puppet clown dictator Zelensky are baked into their response.
We shall see. Never take your eyes off the Globalist Fascist Pigs. Deceit to them is innate. Coincidence? No, not ever.
Here's a hint from Mark Stein. Might just be rumor... might NOT...?
https://www.steynonline.com/15074/suitless-in-sukatown
Unless you’re cutting Social Security, Medicare, and defense, you’re not addressing anything but drops in an ocean.
You are such genius deal makers that you bought the bullying of 10 transgender people for the price of the global prominence of the United States and your own government benefits to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year for however long you live.
I personally kinda think it’s not a good deal. But I didn’t have someone write The Art of the Deal for me, so what do I know.
Anything to keep your USAID NGO money flowing, Tony?
You never even heard of USAID until the rightwing shit dispenser shoved it into your throat as yet another Big Jew conspiracy theory. It’s so exhausting witnessing you people try to think.
You never even heard of USAID until the rightwing shit dispenser shoved it into your throat as yet another Big Jew conspiracy theory.
LOL, no, you mincing faggot, it's been well known for decades now that USAID was a CIA front.
And we hate the CIA because?
The Republican project of unilateral relinquishment of American soft power is so interesting considering their incessant and occasionally literal flag humping.
And you love the CIA because?
The Republican project of unilateral relinquishment of American soft power is so interesting considering their incessant and occasionally literal flag humping.
The marxist project of spreading their stupid political theology is so interesting considering their incessant and occasionally literal kiddie humping. I do appreciate you once again admitting to your "liberating tolerance" double standard that you only support the US when it's pushing said stupid political theology.
You support the world’s most notorious living pedophile as a god-king.
You support entire industries of pedophiles, from Hollywood to the teacher's unions.
You support a pedophile being president. Not to repeat myself.
Why do lefty ass-wipes continue to lie so transparently?
I don't think most people begin to realize how wild this revelation is…
Wait until the people find out who was behind the assassinations in the 60’s. That’s coming any day too.
It’s a great time to be alive, for those of us disgusted with the swamp and their friends in the FBI/CIA/fucking MIC.
I fear that the retribution from “the adults in the room” and their leftist allies is going to be fucking horrific after the Trump/Vance years. So much so that I’m looking at earlier retirement than I had originally planned, to get the fuck out of the city and get my investments into less risky funds.
Next up: Pass a law that Medicare will not pay a price for any drug higher than that charged to any other national healthcare system.
They days of us subsidizing Euros so they can lecture us on their financial responsibility are over.
In all seriousness, it's high time that we finally told these entitled fucks to take care of their own house. The only reason we kept NATO in operation after the Cold War was to turn eastern Europe and Russia in to economic vassals for multinational crony capitalism. Chest -puffing about "free nations" aside, that's ultimately what it boiled down to. It was done for money, not ideology, and the latter was only inserted by the queer cultists in the Obama administration as part of the deal.
Say what you will about the evils of capitalism, libertarian, but globally interconnected trade does seem to go some distance in preventing the endless wars that once spilled oceans of blood in Europe and everywhere else.
Perhaps you prefer a world in which we retreat into religious tribalism and resume slaughtering each other over disagreements about which version of Santa Claus rules the cosmos?
As long as you're one of the slaughtered, that would suit me just fine. But you marxist vermin always did indulge in these kinds of stupid false dilemmas.
If you want " globally interconnected trade," you have to have endless foreign adventures. It's how it's worked since the Banana Wars. You think we were involved in Ukraine to "spread democracy"? Get the fuck out of here. Your side spazzed out about US militarism for 50 years, and now you're getting what you want--the US working to get out of everywhere with its evil "colonialism". So what's the fucking problem?
Oh right, the issue isn't the issue, the issue is what will advance the revolution. Time for the counter-revolution.
I’m very clear on my position about American foreign policy. Republicans fuck it up and Democrats do a decent job. I prefer Pax Americana to shithole autocracies like Russia and China controlling things, but you do you.
Yes, I know, you practice "liberating tolerance." Which is why anything you support should be done in the exact opposite manner.
You don't get to support "Pax Americana" when it requires those overseas adventures you supposedly hate. Which let's face it, you don't actually hate them, it's just another issue to advance the revolution.
I prefer Pax America to shithole autocracies like the UK and Germany controlling things, but you do you.
The UK and Germany aren’t autocracies. Are you stupid?
Thanks for confirming you’re a longtime resident Russian troll, I guess?
Ahh. Citations: Afghanistan, Bosnia, rise of nazi Germany, deporting Japanese and Mexicans, Vietnam, Korean war...
Great work on your side.
Who gives a crap about things that happened when nobody alive was alive?
"I’m very clear on my position about American foreign policy..."
Not to mention abysmally ignorant. Fuck off and die, asshole.
“Estoy aquí para cambiar las cosas” - J Milei
“Hold my beer, amigo” - D Trump
NATO was created to counter the Bolsheviks Soviet Union after they grabbed all of eastern Europe.
Then the Soviet Union collapsed and the eastern bloc nations went their separate ways.
At that point, there was no good reason for NATO to remain. The truth is NATO is responsible for such terrorist groups as the Red Brigade and Bader Meinhof gang.
NATO was also involved in the Maiden in Ukraine.
It's time for that dinosaur to die and time for Europe get its act together without help from American taxpayers who have footed the bill for the past seventy years.
It would be relatively easy for NATO for 'Europize' itself. Split itself into four working suballiances.
a)A Nordic/Baltic one of eight countries that is competent, aware of the threat and that can already work together. Maybe UK would also join that one.
b)An Eastern European one that is basically the former Warsaw Pact. They know the threat and have a very common interest but are also riddled with spies, Russian provocateurs, and internal problems. But ultimately they are the ones who have to figure out how to prevent the Russians from fulfilling their revanchist dreams.
c)An 'EU' bureaucracy headlined by the Germans/French. They would mostly be useless and corrupt and would spend a ton of effort arguing about who are the generals, who will bring the potato salad, who will build the advanced fighters, etc. But they could be useful to the two above suballiances in providing large scale support.
d)Canada - Every alliance needs a Labradoodle.
I always felt that NATO continued because 1) France and the UK were afraid that if the U.S. left Germany would inevitably become the dominant state in Europe (as it always "should" have been) and they weren't all that excited about the Wehrmacht making a comeback. 2) The Germans felt that if they did take the leadership role everyone would hate them, and who else could do the job? 3) The American military wanted a reason to continue to exist and was willing, and able, to do the job for free, thanks to pressure from the Pentagon itself, military contractors, and the neocons--what I like to call the "military intellectual complex". In addition, Eastern Europe wasn't all that excited about having to choose between Germany and Russia for "protection".
Or as the first NATO SecyGenl - Ismay Hastings - said to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down
Unfortunately - we Americans never paid attention to the reality that our role could end once the other two functions were solved
There is zero loss to us not being involved.
I always felt that NATO continued because 1) France and the UK were afraid that if the U.S. left Germany would inevitably become the dominant state in Europe (as it always "should" have been)
What do you think the EU project was?
The US has such dominant influence in the world because of our involvement in NATO, Five Eyes, other alliances, our foreign aid, and every other involvement in international relations. The MAGAs want the US to be isolationist, and dominant on the world stage. You can't have both.
Stupidly wrong. America is dominant on the world stage because we have the largest economy in the world and because of that we have the best stuff.
Yeah, I know, now that the radical left completed their Long March through the surveillance state, suddenly all these overseas adventures and "colonialism" isn't such a bad thing.
Opposing NATO expansion and Five Eyes is consistent with anti-colonialism. 1:1 overlap on the venn diagram.
>members of the North Alliance Treaty Organization (NATO).
Jesus fucking Christ.
Next I assume you'll be talking about NATO's east flank?
Its not a flank. The East is NATO's *front*.
Military buildup during an economic decline - is that really a good thing? I mean, historically? France went bankrupt bankrolling the revolutionary war, and then unpleasant things happened to the royalty.
Trump just wanted members to pay more for its defense. JD Vance told Europe not to jail people for posting memes. That was enough for the leaders of Europe declare "independence" from America.
I'm guessing Europe won't be dumb enough to rely on conscription to create their new Euro force. But who knows.
Conscription is exactly what Europe should reinstate. Ramp up to a 10:1 reserves:active ratio. That's what will ramp up the logistics that can drive a switch from peacetime to wartime. And is the opposite of the current practice of both the US and Europe
Spiked Online discusses the German political situation.
Short version: It's the unchecked immigration, stew-pot!
2nd half: They discuss how the British Organization "Stonewall" is firing a bunch of people after USAID money was cut off.
Yes, the obvious shocker is: Stonewall in England existed largely because of us taxpayers... this is the organization who's top figure referred to lesbians as "sexual racists" if they refuse to have sex with a man.
USAID should be burned to the ground while libertarians flip it off as it is reduced to ashes.
"Austere esoteric feminism pioneered by Judith Butler".
I like that. Keeping that.
Yes, the obvious shocker is: Stonewall in England existed largely because of us taxpayers... this is the organization who's top figure referred to lesbians as "sexual racists" if they refuse to have sex with a man.
Stonewall was set up in 1998. Stonewall advocated for Tavistock. Stonewall advocated for the gender pronoun policing policies in the UK. In a very valid connect-the-dots sense, the US government partially funded the decline if not a soft, slow-rolling coup of British Democracy.
Again, I can remember the good old days when you could open a business and refuse to serve gays, or not, without fear of the reign of terror. At this point, I think I would only be modestly surprised if we hadn't actually landed on The Moon.
NATO as the pretext for global US hegemony had a nice long run after the fall of the Iron Curtain.
But now it's over. Time to whittle it back to a regional European security pact.
Simple. UK, France and Germany form a European Treaty Organisation, say that all European countries - and Canada - currently members of NATO can join on simple request under the same terms as NATO membership, as can Ukraine, withdraw from NATO, and inform the US that they are willing to establish a new mutual defence treaty under new terms. Krasnov can decide whether the US wishes to join the new organisation or keep with a now worthless NATO - or perhaps join Russia in some 21st C version of the Warsaw Pact, which presumably would be his preference.
Europe needs to defend itself. The US out of Ukraine. The US out of NATO. Your implication the US would join Russia in a defense compact is absurd but typical for a Leftard.
I wasn't being entirely serious, nor am I a leftist, you humourless fuckwit.
But I see that usual pattern from the cultists - US out of Europe to let Europe handle its own affairs, but also trying to coerce Ukraine in surrendering to Russia and avoiding imposing any concessions on Russia, per DUI hire Hegseth.
perhaps join Russia in some 21st C version of the Warsaw Pact, which presumably would be his preference.
You're insane if you think the US would tolerate a hostile entity with a 5,000 mile border on its doorstep. Russia didn't tolerate it, why would the US?
Say something critical about Vladimir Putin. Really let him have it. Go on. Be mean. Everyone has flaws. What are his? I dare you.
As I said above, it was not serious. But why do you think Russia is hostile - didn't you get the memo from Krasnov? Ukraine is your enemy. We have always been at war with Eastasia. You treat allies with support and don't to force them to surrender, and you treat enemies with strength and don't offer them what they want. Is that what we see with Krasnov and Putin?
US out of Ukraine. US out of NATO. This is Libertarian demand.
NATO operates more like a local gang...."nice country you have here. Be a shame if anything happened to it. Now pay us for protection."
The truth is NATO has become an anachronism without the threat of the Soviet Union but continues like continually reviving a dead corpse in order to keep the checks and money flowing.
It is not Russia who is the threat but the globalist elites who run most of Europe and the U.K. They do see Russia as a threat as Putin and the Russian people do not wish to lose their sovereignty.
Another point is that the Trotskyite neo-cons who loath and despise Russia for having twice now kicked out the trouble makers, most of whom resettled in Israel.
If Europe and the U.K. wishes to continue to become more of a dictatorship then Trump should remove all military bases from those countries as well as the U.K.
There is no reason for the American taxpayers, forced to continue funding those despotic regimes.
Russian sovereignty is an interesting way to describe the mass-homicidal brute-force invasion of other countries.
Ah, but Putin is a good guy to them because Zelenskyy wouldn't kowtow to Krasnov and then ther'es Burisma. Against that, the multitude of war crimes committed by Putin is little more than a celebrity grope-fest
You forgot Washington's intervention in Ukraine that pushed along a civil revolt, the Maiden, that overthrew a leader who was on good terms with Putin. Thank you Victoria Nudelman, the Kagans, Bill Kristol ,Max Boot and and John Bolton.
You also either forgot or ignored the fact that soon after, the neo-Nazi Azov battalion shelled the Donbass region murdering over 12,000 ethnic Russians. And lest we forget the billions that went missing, the truckloads of military grade weapons that went missing and some of it now in the hands of the cartels.
Yes, for sure Putin is an evil man for wanting to defend his people.
Maybe it's time for Americans to realize the foreign interventionism of the past seventy years has been nothing but one disaster after another.
Ron Paul is right.
“Defend” is an interesting way to describe invading and mass murdering for no rational reason.
Trump's recent statements and actions have included blaming NATO expansion for Russia's invasion of Ukraine ("That's probably the reason the whole thing started," he said Wednesday)
Well, since that's plainly obvious to anyone with a higher than Celcius scale room temperature IQ, I'm not sure why you're bringing it up like this is some sort of shocking claim.
Yeah because wanting to join Nato...People who support Putin against Ukraine are like men who support their buddy's abuse of his wife. "She said she was afraid I'd beat her up, and she wanted to go to a shelter. So to stop her, I beat her up." "Yeah, you had to, man, that bitch..."
Uh huh. That trunk bear kinda thinking only works if “no, I’m not bailing you out of jail, and fuck both of you crack smoking idiots” = “support Putin”.
Lol. Stupid limey cracker.
A strong minority (Orban, Meloni, et al) think that immigration and Islam are already killing Europe. So until super-stupid ideas like Laicite are no longer in place, neither resolution matters. Let Europe die. It wants to, it's working toward it --- I might stop back to crow if the next Pope is a Black African , that is when the hook takes Europe off stage.
France let the murderers in by rejecting Christianity and welcoming its own executioners.
The next pope will probably be Muslim.
Either that or trans.
You must have seen Conclave
This war is the result of another foreign policy disaster brought to you by the Trotskyite neo-cons in Washington, D.C..
More proof of the disastrous foreign policies of interventionism and military adventurism thanks to Washington.
For the past four years the world has witnessed the results of another Washington foreign policy debacle, one that threatens Europe and has now divided western Europe and the U.K. from the U.S.
Worse still are those who support the little coke head, Zelensky, who continues to act more like a dictator albeit a very corrupt one who also appears to be quite stupid and foolish.
This is another one that Washington should have never gotten involved with but unfortunately, like a drug addict, it can't help it.
Sooner or later America's interventionist policies are going to backfire on the American people in a major way.
So who's going to be blamed for it when it happens?
80 year ago when WWII ended, Europe was in rubble. It made sense for the U.S. to defend and protect Western Europe against the Soviet Union. If we hadn't, countries behind the iron curtain would have included Greece, all of Germany, Italy. Who knows how far west the iron curtain would have gone. That is why NATO was formed. But that was 8 decades ago. Now it doesn't make sense for the taxpaying suckers of America to pick up the lion's share of the cost to defend the rest of NATO.