October 7 Offered a Stark Choice Between Good and Evil
When civilians are the targets, terrorists’ grievances don’t matter; it’s time to hunt the perpetrators.

One year ago, on October 7, 2023, Hamas terrorists swarmed across the border from Gaza in a stunning and bloody attack on southern Israel. Roughly 1,200 people were killed, the vast majority civilians. The attack set off a still-escalating conflict that raises questions about how far people can go to defend themselves and what constitutes legitimate targets for military strikes. But it also posed a stark choice between good and evil, innocents and terrorists—and some people around the world are picking the wrong side.
That murderous attacks on unsuspecting civilians and the kidnapping of hundreds of them—some still in captivity—constitute unjustifiable acts of terrorism is beyond question. Surprisingly, though, there's no generally accepted definition of terrorism, because governments like to keep the term vague so it doesn't encompass their own actions and perhaps so it can be applied to domestic political opponents.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Terrorism Means Targeting Civilians
Decades ago, in a class taught by a retired U.S diplomat who worked for years in the Middle East, I was told the best way to distinguish terrorism from military action is that terrorism deliberately targets civilians rather than government officials or military personnel. That squares with a 2004 report by the office of the U.N. Secretary General that framed terrorism as "any action 'intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act.'"
This doesn't mean that purely military action is necessarily justified—whether it's right or wrong depends on the rationale. But when civilians are the main target, there's no need to consider the cause; that's terrorism, it's evil, and it's time to hunt down the perpetrators and bring them to justice.
October 7, When Mostly Civilians Suffered
On October 7, the attack began with a barrage of thousands of rockets launched from Gaza into Israel. Then approximately 1,500 terrorists in the employ of Hamas, an Iran proxy which runs Gaza, and its allies breached the border wall or bypassed it by paraglider and motorboat. About 1,200 people died at the hands of the terrorists by guns, bombs, rape and sexual torture, blades, and fire, especially among residents of nearby kibbutzes and attendees at the Supernova music festival.
"Authorities have identified a total of 274 soldiers and 859 non-soldiers killed during the brutal assault," the Times of Israel reported last December. Removing police and security guards from the total still "leaves a figure of 764 civilians," the Times added.
"The assault dwarfs all other mass murders of Israeli civilians," The Economist noted. "The last time before October 7th that this many Jews were murdered on a single day was during the Holocaust."
Not immediately killed were hundreds of hostages seized by Hamas and its partners. Some have since been released in exchange for concessions, and some have been rescued. Others have been murdered in captivity. A few have been held for a year and are hopefully still alive, including four Americans.
The correct reaction is to recognize that terrorists who target civilians for murder, rape, and kidnapping deserve contempt. They should be on the receiving end of efforts to make sure they're apprehended, killed, or otherwise rendered incapable of again committing such acts. Terrorism isn't an act that might be justified if you have a sufficiently strong grievance; it's slaughter and brutalization of the innocent to spread fear while bypassing those who might fight back. It deserves an equally brutal response.
The Limits of a Just Response
That doesn't mean anything goes in punishing terrorists. There's room for debate about the tactics that can be used to target Hamas and the degree to which civilians can be put at risk as Israeli forces search for those responsible for October 7. It's a dilemma amplified by the fact that Hamas, like many terrorist organizations, embeds itself among civilians in schools, medical centers, and residential neighborhoods to make punishing its members impossible without putting the innocent at some degree of risk.
"With Hamas locating themselves alongside important places like hospitals, Hamas has actually made Israel fight them in places Israel wouldn't want to target them, because of the potential loss of civilian life," American University School of International Service Professor Benjamin Jensen observed last November. "And in doing so, look at how fast Israel lost momentum in its information war. Israel is taking a huge amount of criticism for its killing of civilians as it goes after Hamas."
Risks can be mitigated. As the conflict expanded to include Hezbollah, which has rendered much of Israel near the Lebanese border uninhabitable with rocket attacks and violent incursions, Israel planted bombs in pagers and walkie-talkies used by Hezbollah personnel to hit the guilty and reduce danger to innocent people. Inevitably, though, a few civilians were killed and wounded. Conventional attacks on Hezbollah's leadership have been very effective, but also killed and wounded civilians located near the targets.
Is that too many civilian casualties? Nobody has an easy answer regarding any conflict. A public health paper published in 2021 estimated that civilians made up 28 percent of all casualties during America's involvement in Afghanistan, about half of casualties during the Balkan War, about a quarter of casualties after Russia's first invasion of Ukraine, and a whopping two-thirds of casualties during the war in Iraq.
Terrorists Rely on the Deaths of Innocents
Accepting the moral compromises of armed conflict is a hell of a challenge. But aggressors count on that and are happy to see innocents killed and wounded to insulate their people from consequences.
Civilian casualties are "necessary sacrifices", Hamas military leader Yahya Sinwar—who may have since died—told colleagues in correspondence published by The Wall Street Journal. "In dozens of messages—reviewed by The Wall Street Journal—that Sinwar has transmitted to cease-fire negotiators, Hamas compatriots outside Gaza and others, he's shown a cold disregard for human life," the report added.
Such calculated evil leaves people in a bind. Some have chosen to embrace terrorists as freedom fighters, as if supposed grievances matter when the chosen weapons are murder, rape, and kidnapping. Protests against the war resulting from October 7 feature symbols and slogans in favor of Hamas and other terrorists. France's President Emmanuel Macron wants an arms embargo against Israel. Antisemitism is globally on the rise as those who favor terrorists expand their hate from Israel to all Jews.
Let them speak. Those who embrace evil reveal themselves to us and let us know where the next threat might arise. If they go beyond speech to action, we'll already have them on our radar. Those who have already engaged in terrorism should be hunted and punished to prevent a recurrence of such crimes.
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Now do Euromaidan and Donbass.
Now do Tumpanzees gone apeshit on January the 6th!
Hang Mike Pence! Glorify political violence when MY Sacred Tribe does shit!
October 7 was an inside job. Coordinated by Israel to excuse their long planned holocaust in Gaza.
Israel has offered no credible reason why it removed all its defenses and emptied its military bases at the border with Gaza just hours before the incursion.
Israel has offered no credible explanation why it took 6 hours to respond with its helicopters that should have been on the scene in less than 5 minutes
Israel hasn’t explained why they have given Hamas billions of dollars in cash, in suitcases in the backs of cars. This is the shady untraceable behaviour of an illegal payoff or bribe to some corrupt Hamas officials.
The following video is the best compilation of evidence to date that proves October 7 was an inside job coordinated by Israel as an excuse to commit genocide in Gaza.
https://richardgage911.substack.com/p/new-documentary-on-gaza-october-7
The video proves that Israel, funded, coordinated and enabled the October 7 attacks.
It shows that Israel opened the gate to welcome trucks carrying Hamas through the wall.
It shows how Israel not only ignored repeated warnings from their many surveillance sources but withdrew all defences from the wall and emptied their military bases just hours before the attack and had ZERO response for more than 6 hours.
It shows and proves that the IDF attacked the concert goers and the kibbutz’s with Apache helicopters and tanks.
It shows that they sacrificed dozens of their IDF forces to blame Hamas.
It shows that only handfuls of Hamas soldiers wandered for hours through the evacuated areas looking for soldiers to fight but finding none.
It shows that the hostages that were taken by Hamas said they were treated well.
It shows that Israel/Netanyahu has funded Hamas with billions in cash in suitcases in the backs of cars
Wow. That is a whole lot of CrazyTown.
He’s just here to support the current thing…and to eat feces.
If you can’t refute what you think is crazy, what does that make you?
Refuted. That was easy.
Refuted.
Indeed.
Nobody should listen to Ron.
Crazy, vicious AND stupid.
Just mute the mofo.
Says an anonymous fuckwit that doesn’t even take its own advice.
Please, do us all a favour and press the bigotry button. You can’t refute what you don’t consider.
Refuted.
This is what you’re saying about yourself when you parrot “refuted”.
1. You’re upset by something I’ve said.
2. You’re too stupid to actually refute it.
3. You’re too bigoted to consider that what you can’t refute might be true.
4. You’re too stupid to consider your dilemma in silence.
5. You’re so angry that you’ll make a fool of yourself trying to anger me too.
6. In the case of a hasbara troll you’re willing to say all that about yourself for a few shekels.
Like I say to all fuckwits, prove it.
Clearly describe how you have specifically refuted anything that I’ve said with correctly applied logic and science AND provide a link to it so we can all fact check your claim.
Again. Refuted.
You stupid steaming pile of Nazi shit, you've had your hat handed to you many times, but, unfortunately, you lack the intelligence to understand that, along with being incapable of understanding the concepts of "evidence" and "relevance".
FOAD, asshole, make the world a better place.
The last time you claimed that, in exactly the same circumstance, I rubbed your face in the fact that you failed miserably.
I’m just as pleased with these optics now.
The last time I pasted that response, you showed, yet one more time, that you are entirely too stupid to understand what “evidence” and “relevance” mean. "Optics" as seen by such an ignoramus is all you got; facts relevance and evidence are far beyond your room-temp IQ to understand.
The fact that one Jewish person lied about something does not mean the Holocaust didn’t happen, it means you are a fucking, imbecilic, anti-semite, entirely too stupid to understand that fact.
FOAD, asshole, make your family proud and the world a better place.
Really?
Then post a link to it to prove your claim fuckwit. Let everyone fact check it.
You didn’t that time either, so I did, and rubbed your face in your lies.
Refuted.
Now GTFO and go to Iran, pussy.
Lots of name calling from you and zero substance. Are you traumatized because you were found in dumpster 8 months after your mom's prom? You might qualify for the designation of "cunt" but you haven't got the depth or the warmth.
Refuted.
How about the Hannibal Directive? And what of Israel's role in creating Hamas? Here you have it: a bunch of quotes from Israeli and American military, political and "intelligence" officials:
https://swprs.org/why-israel-created-hamas/
Refuted.
Ask him about Section 230.
You are welcome.
"October 7 was an inside job."
Just like 9/11, no?
This video PROVES it!
Btw, He's also promoting that lying should be illegal.
Several hostages have reported that they were not in fact "treated well." Others are still being held hostage a year later, or dead. Even if some were treated well, kidnapping and holding people prisoner for any length of time is terrorism. "Civilians" who hold hostages for Hamas are also terrorists. They should report the location of the hostages to Israel or to international authorities, and turn them over peacefully.
Israel is holding many times more Palestinians hostage, killing many of them, for decades.
Uh huh. Cool story bro.
So are you on your way to Iran to fight against the Israelis? Or are you going to be working for Al Queada?
Oh, and refuted.
Those are called criminals, not hostages, and the places they are being held are called prisons. They are being held after being convicted of crimes, and the places of their incarceration are well known, not in secret.
They are women and children hostages of Israeli terrorists.
Miko Peled is an Israeli, an author, a public speaker and the son of a famous Israeli general.
He is also opposed to Israeli apartheid of Palestinians.
In the following video he puts into perspective what you won’t see in our western propaganda.
Between 40:40 and 43:45 in the video he describes Israeli terrorism.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ
" They are being held after being convicted of crimes, and the places of their incarceration are well known, not in secret."
The number of Palestinians held by Israel doubled, I believe in the past year. It now stands at about 10,000. Rape and torture is practiced in these places, and the Israeli rapists and torturers are protected and lionized by the society. We have the video evidence.
Otherwise, there is secrecy. Most prisoners have not been tried and Israel refuses to allow organizations like the Red Cross visits and access to the prisons.
Provide a link if you don’t mind.
There are hypertext links all over the internet. If you are curious type in 'red cross visit israeli prisons' or 'rape and torture palestinian prisoners,' etc. There are plenty of links, but links to American media like Reason, are rare. Israeli media is more forthcoming despite heavy censorship.
Thanks.
I don’t try to understand Israel because it’s an irrational religious nationalist state based on a religion that advocates lying.
They’re committing a holocaust in Gaza.
Stop Israel.
No. They are hostages. Nobody cares what your hasbara training manual tells you to spew. Israel has been holding women, children and adult male hostages without charges, let alone due process, in some cases for decades. Learn some history or shut up.
Just because Israel calls them criminals doesn't make them so. They have no, ZERO due process. They are simply picked up by police or Shin Bet and held. No independent judicial review, nada. Some of them are as young as six years old. I last heard that the current count was around 9,000. A few years ago, when the count was over 20,000, Hamas was able to exchange 2 IDF soldiers for 9,000 prisoners. That must be when IDF initiated the Hannibal Directive.
Refuted!
Jet fuel doesn't burn steel beams, amirite?
Nor does anyone say it did. What very stupid and ignorant people don't know is that long before steel burns, it loses its strength - and the temperature at which it loses strength is below the temperature at which jet fuel burns. As these very stupid and ignorant people don't know this, they have to come up with alternative explanations for the collapse of the WTC, which, their being very stupid and ignorant, leads to very stupid and ignorant explanations.
Now do WTC-7!
https://ine.uaf.edu/wtc7
Let's do that after you finish WTC-1 and 2...
" As these very stupid and ignorant people don’t know this,"
The WTC7 building was not hit by aircraft, and the fires that broke out presumably were not burning jet fuel. It collapsed, at free fall speed, into its own foot print. That strikes me as strange and unexpected. How about you?
We sure do waste a lot on demolition of buildings. Just start a really hot fire about 2/3 up and watch it fall into itself...
Wow, dude, there are not enough therapists or drugs to cure your brain. Best just turn it off.
That didn’t get any better after “wow dude”.
Try actually refuting something I said, before commenting on its veracity.
He’s astounded by both your abject stupidity, and anti semitic delusions.
So when are you leaving to fight for Iran?
Oh, and refuted.
You keep repeating that nonsense about Iran as if it has any meaning. You also keep repeating BS by throwing the accusation of "antisemitism" around without demonstrating what, precisely, has been written that might qualify. Typical hasbara(t).
You’re obviously a sock. Who are you really? And why do you Nazis always hide? I thought you were proud of your genocidal aspirations?
And yes, you’re an anti semite, along with the other democrats, you want to kill Jews. Case closed.
Do you think Pence is just a civilian?
Even your fill-in-the-crime imagination doesn't make sense.
Maybe you'd like to censor speech so no-one will ever say that again?
The Cummander in Chief (AKA the Pussy-Grabber in Chief) does NOT have free speech rights to order "His" Troops to go and bomb Mike Pence's house, or Nancy Pelosi's house either!
Attempt #2 at "fill-in-the-crime imagination"
You mean the "deadly insurrection" where police killed 2 unarmed protestors and the Second Amendment-backing protestors forgot to bring their guns?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riots-cops-describe-facing-pro-trump-rioters/
"Kill him with his own gun:" Cops describe being attacked by Capitol rioters
Not very peace-loving!!!
Euromaidan was a revolution in Ukraine where the citizens of that country ousted a corrupt leader. What does that have to do with any of this?
If by "citizens of that country" you mean "western intelligence", then, yes.
"Those who have already engaged in terrorism should be hunted and punished to prevent a recurrence of such crimes."
To the extent that the purpose of terrorism is to provoke a reaction, I'm not sure hunting them down is going to solve the problem. Bigger reactions probably just encourage more terrorism.
It prevents them from recidivism.
What do you think happens to a government that allows its citizens to be murdered, kidnapped and abused by declared enemies of that state en masse? Terrorists acts are not something a State can ignore and maintain civil order and liberties.
Remember, this is a lunatic that thinks unguided tours are terrorism.
Indeed.
He is pretty selective in which terrorists to appease.
The reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor provoked the Japanese to fighting harder- until they got tired of fighting.
And the US didn't exactly try to limit civilian casualties, we wiped out whole cities. Don't start a war, you might not like how it ends.
"And the US didn’t exactly try to limit civilian casualties"
They did in Europe. The daylight bombing raids over Germany were designed to avoid civilian casualties and concentrate on military targets more effectively. The daylight raids also came at a cost, as they were more dangerous (to the allies) than the indiscriminate night time raids favored by the British.
Asia is a different story. Not only Japan, but North Korea, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam still remain the most heavily bombed nations in history.
Maybe Imperial Japan shouldn’t have attacked us. But I’m sure you think the wrong side won WW2.
North Korea, Vietnam, Laos or even Cambodia played no part in Pearl Harbor.
You mean the communist countries run by your fellow travelers?
Americans like dropping bombs on communist countries as long as their capacity to fight back is minimal. Go figure.
It was just a coincidence so few ships were there, including no aircraft carriers... transporting or training or w/e the fuck excuses they used.
bombing raids over Germany were designed to avoid civilian casualties
Dresden on line 1.
Exactly. US bombed during the day. UK at night.
The intent was to kill German civilians and destroy materiel.
Is that what the IDF propagandists are telling you?
Were the firebombing raids of Dresden, conducted by the US and UK, done during daylight? I didn't think so. You're spewing typical rah rah USA state propaganda.
https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=1B3F61E9A7D6529E029A87544D0F0AB9
"You’re spewing typical rah rah USA state propaganda."
On the contrary, it's those who are anxious to paint the US as blood thirsty civilian murderers who are suspect here. It's offered as an apologia for Israel's war crimes in Gaza.
You would have been an nthusiastoc member of the Nazi party if you were back in the 30’s
Still better at spelling though.
Bullshit. Fire-bombing of Dresden. The starvation and mass murder of millions of Germans immediately post-war.
We tried that already. We ignored Al Qaeda after the Riyadh tower bombings, we ignored Al Qaeda after the Battle of Somalia, we ignored Al Qaeda after they attacked our embassies, we ignored Al Qaeda after they attacked the USS Cole, we ignored Al Qaeda after their first WTC attack. And what happened? Did they go away? Ask the people who work at the WTC, or you can't, because Al Qaeda killed them. Ignoring bullies usually only encourages their behavior, punching back often discourages it, terrorist are basically bullies.
"Ignoring bullies usually only encourages their behavior, punching back often discourages it, terrorist are basically bullies."
The terror groups we face are not bullies. They have grievances and a cause they are willing to fight and die for. Pretending they are otherwise will only lead to error and confusion. In the end, appeasement is often the solution. Purple fingered elections resulting in a parliament of Iran educated clerics mostly put a stop to the terror attacks against US personnel in Iraq. Military solutions are also sometimes called for, as in the fight against ISIS.
So you’re in the side of the terrorists? Got it.
Isn’t everyone? I’m on the side of the evil terrorists, while you cheer on the good terrorists.
The Israelis aren’t terrorists. They’re responding to Islamic aggression. If your Islamic friends renounced violence and lived in peace, there would be peace. Case closed.
You should either renounce the democrat party, and all its evil works, or commit suicide. I’m fine with that either way,
"The Israelis aren’t terrorists. "
Never said they were.
" If your Islamic friends renounced violence and lived in peace, there would be peace. "
Apartheid and occupation would continue. Hamas has made it clear that they oppose it and that's why the conflict continues.
Hamas opposes the existence of jews as human beings, as you know. They are the practitioners of apartheid in the region.
No, they don't. And you know you're FOS too. Israel is an apartheid state, period. But don't take my word for it, let's hear from the Israelis themselves.
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Ok Misek. Oh, and refuted.
Moral relativism is bullshit.
It’s the card Mtrue plays when he gets cornered.
So yeah, happens every day that he posts anything.
Al-Qaeda was and always has been a wholly owned subsidiary of western intelligence. Same with ISIS and the other crazies in Syria.
In this circumstance, there is no limit to a just response. Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah should have considered all outcomes of their barbaric invasion. Now they are reaping what they have sown. I consider the Israeli response as doing the entire globe a gigantic favor.
It's like Operation Barbarosa.
the blowback from the Red Army wasn't pretty.
the blowback from the IDF isn't pretty.
My personal hypothesis is that limited warfare, basing military decisions largely on avoiding civilian casualties (as opposed to military objectives while doing the best possible to avoid civilian casualties) just lengthens wars and results, ultimately in more civilian casualties. It also plays to those who have no problem killing their own civilians. War is hell, trying to make it cleaner just makes it a long low level hell.
"War is hell, trying to make it cleaner just makes it a long low level hell."
Scrapping the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit the use of poison gas, summary execution of prisoners etc would certainly make for a higher level of hell. Is this what you are arguing for?
You side with Muslims whose actions are a thousand times worse without hesitation. So you have no business commenting here.
Your side has already summarily executed prisoners. What good did the conventions do there?
It made Mtrue very wet, and he likely giggled like an excited schoolgirl when he read about it.
"Your side has already summarily executed prisoners."
Are you arguing for or against summary executions, the use of gas, etc? soldiermedic76 seems to be in favor. How about you?
You forgot to answer what good the conventions did to stop your side from practicing them.
You shouldn't rely on me to answer your questions. Broaden your sources, and you'll be surprised what you'll learn. You're not stupid, just blinkered.
The only thing we rely on you for is to demonstrate the evasions and contradictions of the pro-Hamas side. Thank you for doing so once again.
If you need any clarifications, you only need to ask. I can't promise you'll like my answers or approve of them, though. Find another person to respond to if it pains you so much, or causes you such emotional turmoil to come across contradictory ideas.
Your answers are Islamist propaganda. You are with the terrorists.
"You are with the terrorists."
I thought we settled this. I'm with the evil terrorists. You're with the good ones.
Are you arguing for or against summary executions, the use of gas, etc? soldiermedic76 seems to be in favor.
Liar.
No, you shut up!
It's amusing they believe they can just make shit up out of nothing but others need to go through some exhaustive refutation like we don't know they just made it up.
Define "summarily" and provide examples. Because from Israeli media sources, it would appear that any prisoners "summarily" executed by Hamas were one of two things: 1) A response to a previous summary execution/bombing of innocent Gazans and/or 2) An Israeli bomb or missile that killed hostages.
Do you dupes ever check Israeli Hebrew media at all? They say it openly there: Netanyahu doesn't want to, nor does he prioritize, rescuing hostages. Rather, he and his gov't would prefer that as many die as possible for a multitude of reasons, one of which is that the ones who do come back often tell horror stories about Israeli bombs and their humane treatment in the hands of their captors. This contrasts with the rape in Israeli prisons which led mobs of Israelis to swarm the prisons....in SUPPORT of the rapists.
Oh, and what about these guys? https://www.commondreams.org/news/idf-kills-3-shirtless-israeli-hostages-waving-white-flag-calling-for-help-in-hebrew
Refuted.
Note how dishonest left wingers are. The claim is that we should pursue victory and not be put off by Islamist efforts to ensure civilians die. mtrueman pretends this means using poison gas. They just aren't capable of adult discussions.
They showed their hand last year when they downplayed the attacks on Israeli civilians but then exploded when Israel targeted terrorists. They don't care about peace, they support the Islamists and their genocidal plans.
" mtrueman pretends this means using poison gas. "
The fact remains that after WWI, the nations got together and banned the use of poison gas against each other. That's an instance of trying to make warfare more humane. soldiermedic76 and Bertram Guilfoyle seem to be arguing against such efforts in the belief that more intense death and suffering is preferable in the long run.
" They don’t care about peace, they support the Islamists and their genocidal plans."
The Islamists are not fighting for peace, but justice, dignity, in keeping with their faith. Had peace been their goal, they would have long ago submitted to the second class status the Israelis were offering.
Again note the lie: that support for a general priority proves any specific claim is positively asserted. Imagine claiming that someone supports torture and summary execution because they state they support punishing criminals. But this is the sort of nonsense they've learned to assert because in their institutions these demonizing actions are valued while reason and logic are not.
Amusingly these same people will be the first to decry the degradation of society and claim to be above it.
Can someone clue Petti and most of the other contributors here on who is clearly more in the wrong?
They’re all Democrat operatives. They hate Israel, and Jews in general.
LOL name one thing that the Biden administration has done to indicate they hate Israel or Jews. We'll wait.
Interfering in IDF operations? Slow walking needed weapon and ammo purchases, with some critical items pushed back YEARS?
Some have chosen to embrace terrorists as freedom fighters, as if supposed grievances matter when the chosen weapons are murder, rape, and kidnapping.
they have the same type of character as Elliot Rodger did and as Dylann Roof has.
The goal of Israel is to wipe out every single Palestinian and claim their land.
The other goal of Israel is to create chaos and destruction throughout the middle with the help of the CIA and American military through the efforts of foreign lobbyists/AIPAC and Trotskyite neo-Marxists such as Bill kristol, John Bolton and Max Boot, etc,etc,etc.. Their final solution is the mass murder of every last Palestinian, Iranian, Syrian and Iraqi. The goal of Israel is complete take over if the middle east.
Israel is a lie. Those people are not Jews, they are Askanazi kazarians from the Stepps and Caucasus area. They have no connection to the Hebrew tribes of the middle east. The Talmud is one of the most racist, ugly, narcissistic and dangerous tomes ever written. AIPAC should be forced to register as foreign agents and America should stop all aid to Israel I as well as all foreign aid period.
Is it any wonder those people have been kicked out of 100 countries.
Did a Jewish girl turn down your sexual advances?
Or was that a Jewish boy?
Could have been one of each, and there wasn’t room for one more.
Gee, look here! Another raging, assholic, antisemite ignoramus!
FOAD shit-pile. Make your family proud and the world a better place.
Girls and women, especially the Judenfraulein, kept their thighs shut whenever he is around!
You should move to Lebanon or Gaza, and fight for the holy cause.
Agree. Sounds like he's been reading all the blood libel texts. The number of slugs who have crawled out from under their logs is extraordinary.
They are doing a piss poor job of eradicating Palestinians
Well, as expected, I received the usual rage and attacks for posting facts.
Go on and continue to rage away. It won't change my mind.
Besides, I support all Semitic peoples including the Palestinians.
Except they aren’t trying “wipe out every single Palestinian”.
You know how you can tell?
The fact they haven’t rounded up every “Palestinian” that lives in Israel and the fact they haven’t just carpet bombed the entire Gaza Strip.
Other than not a single sentence you posted was a 'fact'?
Literally every word you wrote is your opinion on Israeli motivation, which has little to do with reality, and does in fact paint you as a Protocols worshipping Jew-hater?
If Israel actually desired the eradication of the people of Gaza, not a single blade of grass would be standing.
"If Israel actually desired the eradication of the people of Gaza"
They would certainly start by denying their personhood, calling them cockroaches, making their eradication all the more palatable, wouldn't you agree?
What do the Arabs who live in Israel think?
I only know one Arab Israeli. A Christian who lived in Haifa. He was so sick of the endless conflict that he left Israel when he graduated university (Technion) and took up residence abroad. Many Israelis will eventually follow suit. Some 20% of Israelis hold Russian passports, and many more undoubtedly are duel citizens of America, France, UK and other western powers.
Nobody asked how many you know.
You asked me what Israeli Arabs think. I only know for certain what my acquaintance thinks. Next question?
Next question?
Is it hard to breathe with your head up Khameini’s ass?
What's wrong with you? You asked a question:
"What do the Arabs who live in Israel think?"
I answered:
"I only know one Arab Israeli. A Christian who lived in Haifa. He was so sick of the endless conflict that he left Israel when he graduated university (Technion) and took up residence abroad. Many Israelis will eventually follow suit. Some 20% of Israelis hold Russian passports, and many more undoubtedly are duel citizens of America, France, UK and other western powers."
Now all you can do is insult and bluster. Not very gracious of you. When you ask me questions, you should be prepared for the possibility of disagreeing with me, and not fall into the temptation of your typical emotional outbursts. Reason offers you this space on the understanding that you be civil and on topic. You think you're so special that you're exempt? You're not. You're a mediocrity whose contributions add nothing of value to the site.
You answered with an anecdote about someone who doesn’t live in Israel, thus, non-responsive.
Israel has Arab members of its’ government and media, not to mention a numerous regular Arab citizens. These people are not segregated in apartheid-style conditions, mfalseman’s lies to the contrary. And somehow, after Oct 7th, they haven’t had to flee Israel due to any reprisals against them.
*standard mshitman disclaimer should be stated – he knows all this, and has admitted several times to posting bullshit for its own sake. taking his assertions at face-value is only done for the sake of argument*
"You answered with an anecdote about someone who doesn’t live in Israel, thus, non-responsive."
So you disapprove of my response. That's hardly a surprise. I tried to answer as best I could. The only Israeli Arab I know left and lives abroad.
You don't know what anyone thinks. You aren’t even capable of rational thought yourself.
"You don’t know what anyone thinks. "
I have an idea what my acquaintance thinks. We talked about the issue on several occasions.
You claims are nonsensical and unsupported by facts.
"The goal of Israel is to wipe out every single Palestinian and claim their land."
The original plan of Israel and the US was to forcedly transfer the population of Gaza, alive and well, presumably, to Egypt in return for Egypt's debts to be repaid by American taxpayers. Egypt refused and the goal became to make Gaza uninhabitable.
You’re very stupid, and also anti semitic, which is unsurprising, as rabid bigotry is common among democratkind.
You’re a sad pathetic excuse for something masquerading as a human.
"You’re a sad pathetic excuse for something masquerading as a human."
There's no masquerade. I'm actually a human. And I don't have rabies, either, you'll be relieved to learn.
You should head for Gaza and see if the people there treat you as human.
No you’re not. Democrats (like you) are soulless unclean things. And hardly human. You should go join your terrorist friends far away from America.
You have no real right to be here anyway.
Yes I am. No I'm not. Yes I am. No I shouldn't. Yes I do.
The goal of Israel is to wipe out every single Palestinian and claim their land.
IT’s never clear whether anti-Semites like this genuinely believe the crap they post or are doing so merely to spread propaganda. Cunts, regardless.
We finally agree on something.
That's an awfully shallow dividing-definition between Good and Evil.
Perhaps the dividing-definition really exists between the aggressive "conquer and consume" (?free? ponies) mentality and the defensive "earn, own and defend" mentality.
Why is Hamas attacking Israel when apparently they have their own place now? Are they focusing on "earning, owning and defending" or are they focused on "where's our ?free? ponies"?
' It's a dilemma amplified by the fact that Hamas, like many terrorist organizations, embeds itself among civilians in schools, medical centers, and residential neighborhoods to make punishing its members impossible without putting the innocent at some degree of risk.'
Innocent? Like 100% innocent? How many of those are in Gaza?
No different than the Zionists embedding itself in our government, controlling yours and my representatives in congress and forcing it to do the Zionists dirty work .
So when was the first time you read the protocols? Dog-eared copy?
You still here? If you don't get on a plane to Beruit, then we know you are full of shit.
Hey, don't forget our space lasers, as well as the machines we use to control the weather.
Hamas did evil for a day. Israel has been doing evil for a year.
And all of the civilian casualties since October 7th could have been avoided if Hamas surrendered to face justice for their crimes, and released all of the hostages.
""Hamas did evil for a day."'
The continuation of hiding their military infrastructure in civilian areas make it evil for much longer than a day.
For longer than that. But yes, you are correct.
Not letting a terror group (Hamas) continue to rape and kill its citizens is about as far from evil as one can get, which shows you literally have no capacity to actually recognize it.
(Meaning you have no credibility, thanks.)
Israel has done nothing but good since. They’ve shown unprecedented restraint against inhuman creatures who are out to exterminate them.
You are obviously an inhuman piece of shit yourself. How soon will you be traveling with your friend Misek to go fight for Iran?
Moronic statement. Hamas has sent rockets into Israel for over a year. As well as Hezbollah since 2008.
Both have used women and children as suicide bombers.
You sound like an uptight third grade teacher.
Retaliation against terrorists should (normally) try to limit collateral damage to civilians. But Hamas is the elected government of Gaza, and they launched a preemptive strike against civilian targets, committing all matter of atrocities and war crimes. Israel didn't say "we're going to arrest and try the perpetrators and planners of these horrific crimes," they declared war.
War is terrible -- best not to start one if you can't win. A reasonable observer can only conclude that Hamas intended their October 7th attack to be so heinous that it would provoke a military response, in hopes that other Arab nations would join in the attack on Israel.
An attack on civilians rather than on Israel's military was clearly not designed to weaken Israel, but to provoke a response.
How would Hamas intend to benefit from that? By turning the woke West against Israel.
Without wokeness, October 7 never happens.
"An attack on civilians rather than on Israel’s military was clearly not designed to weaken Israel, but to provoke a response."
It was designed to humiliate Israel and inspire the Muslim world, and show Hamas's determination to protect al Aqsa, one of Islam's holiest shrines, constantly under threat by Zionist occupiers. Israel's military response was all but guaranteed whatever Hamas did.
So when are you leaving is to go fight for Iran?
truman is too chickenshit even to be one of the cheesedick college protestors, much less to actually go and fight on behalf of his heroes.
Yeah, democrats are always cowardly pussies. This is why Sarc hides from me. It’s a shame he and KAR (or alternately, he is KAR) won’t come and attempt to follow through o their threats against me. I would enjoy having a legal pretext to beat the living shit out of him/them.
"in hopes that other Arab nations would join in the attack on Israel"
Highly doubtful. It seems reasonable to conclude that Hamas believed their attack would make it impossible for Saudi Arabia to progress with American plans to normalize relations with Israel. I doubt in their wildest dreams they thought they would have provoked Saudi to take up arms to attack Israel militarily. Hamas clearly wanted their cause to once again take it's place as the center of the world's attention. In this they were successful.
"that Hamas intended their October 7th attack to be so heinous that it would provoke a military response"
That's really no surprise. In 2018 thousands of unarmed Gazans participated in demonstrations to voice their demands - end occupation, apartheid, collective punishment etc. Dozens were shot down by IDF snipers. If a military response is Israel's answer to protests, then it's no leap to imagine a military response was in the cards for Hamas's audacious acts of Oct.7th.
end occupation, apartheid, collective punishment
These are things that are practiced by the Palestinians, not the Israelis.
"These are things that are practiced by the Palestinians, not the Israelis."
Is that why Israelis murdered dozens of unarmed protestors? Because they took umbrage at Hamas misdeeds? You, Bertram Guilfoyle, you've never really made sense. Parroting Israeli/American propaganda points is all you can offer.
shitman reduced to babbling once again.
No Shit,an, that didn’t happen. You’re a liar.
"But when civilians are the main target, there's no need to consider the cause; that's terrorism, it's evil..."
This is easy to say when you are the strong. The rules of war and these sorts of moral high grounds always favor those with power to the detriment of those without. One should always be mindful that guerilla warfare is the tactic of the inferior force.
For example, have you ever wondered why the Taliban didn't just park a couple of aircraft carriers and a few missile ships off the coast of NY and launched a full on strike against the the USA? No, of course you didn't. They launched a symbolic strike against the symbols of our military might, our finical might, and our political might because they had no options to strike outside of a symbolic one (and one could even argue, at least from their perspective, that the civilians were nothing more than collateral damage in what was otherwise [symbolic] military targets). Ever notice our response largely targeted the same types of things, just much less symbolically, when we struck back?
On a side note, I have always found it particularly odd that people value others' lives based on there chosen job. That somehow a person targeting a cop to murder vs targeting a hooker to murder is somehow worse. Same for war. That targeting someone because they signed up for civil service, military or government somehow makes it more ok to target and kill them is something I find very peculiar.
Typically, one is at war with a country, not a personal resume, and the object of that war is to defeat. That means hitting targets that benefit your side and/or hurts the others. Blood guilt is nothing more than the rationalization of ones actions... buy, hey, I tend to be a Waldo guy.
“No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution; the only wrong is what is against it.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Also easy to define ‘good’ and ‘evil’ when one is detached and uninvolved. When one is involved – and both sides have already defined themselves as ‘us’ v ‘them’ – and have each claimed historic victimhood – then a Manichaean framing of every event is not a reality but simply a call to action.
It is very much why it was easy for the US to fall into an ‘axis of evil’ and a “you are either with us, or against us” after 9/11. Which even today remains pervasive among Americans (and in particular commenters here) when it comes to how we perceive Muslims.
I’m sure you’re celebrating today. Fucking neo Marxist jihadi apologist.
"Also easy to define ‘good’ and ‘evil’ when one is detached and uninvolved. When one is involved – and both sides have already defined themselves as ‘us’ v ‘them’ – and have each claimed historic victimhood – then a Manichaean framing of every event is not a reality but simply a call to action.
It is very much why it was easy for the US to fall into an ‘axis of evil’ and a “you are either with us, or against us” after 9/11. Which even today remains pervasive among Americans (and in particular commenters here) when it comes to how we perceive Muslims."
If someone raped your sister as retaliation for some wrong you committed against him, it is obligatory to call it evil.
In war, the line between good and evil can be blurred. The allies committed their share of atrocities against humanity. Dropping the nuclear bomb on Japan was a great tragedy. But it is in fact, correct to label the Axis as evil in that conflict. It is debatable whether we could be strictly defined as "good", if you insist on left wing semantics. But if the choice is between Jim Crow America and Hitler's genocide, and the former is at least a necessary evil. Because that is a democratic society struggling for freedom.
In war, the line between good and evil can be blurred.
The need to bifurcate the world into good and evil is what eliminates ethics in future decisions. Evil has been done to you. You are thus good - by definition not by the future choices you may make. EVERYTHING you do is going to be seen by you as good as long as you don't question it much. Anyone (including yourself) who questions what you do is evil.
Harm that is done to people will obviously result in a reaction by those to whom the harm was done. But if they are coercing others into a bifurcation "they are evil and we are good", then they are insisting (at minimum) that no one question their actions. It is very clear that even after a year - Tuccille and others here who want to see the world in good/evil terms have zero capability of doing anything except be complicit. There's no point in his lifetime where Tuccille/etc will EVER question any of those actions (or even view anything objectively) because he is now deep into cognitive dissonance. He has created and labeled and donned his moral blinders.
As Omer Bartov writes in the linked article below, Any suggestion that living in the country had numbed them to the pain of others – the pain that, after all, was being inflicted in their name – only produced a wall of silence, a retreat into themselves, or a quick change of subject. The impression that I got was consistent: we have no room in our hearts, we have no room in our thoughts, we do not want to speak about or to be shown what our own soldiers, our children or grandchildren, our brothers and sisters, are doing right now in Gaza. We must focus on ourselves, on our trauma, fear and anger.
SciFi author David Drake had a quote about this very topic in his book "The Irresistible Force" (I don't have a copy in front of me, so the wording might not be exact):
"It's often hard to tell who the good guys are in a war. But, sometimes, the bad guys are easy to spot."
when it comes to how we perceive Muslims.
Muslims have a choice to support or oppose terrorism, just like everyone else. It's interesting the person who pretends to oppose Manicheism tries to ignore this choice so he can frame the conflict as against Muslims.
Muslims have a choice to support or oppose terrorism, just like everyone else.
Are you talking about ENGAGING in terrorism? Because I find it odd that you would assert that all ‘Gazans’ (median age 18) have been found as guilty as those elements of Hamas who engaged in stuff on Oct7 – of not being sufficiently ‘opposed’ to ‘terrorism’ – with the penalty being death.
One might imagine that someone bombing your town – because you are funding everything happening in Gaza and therefore are complicit – as are your kids – would not be engaging in terrorism.
And BTW - the Israeli conflict is not with Muslims. Their conflict is a national one - with Palestinians (including Christians). What you people here see as the conflict is a religious war against Muslims.
Because I find it odd that you would assert that all ‘Gazans’ (median age 18) have been found as guilty as those elements of Hamas who engaged in stuff on Oct7 – of not being sufficiently ‘opposed’ to ‘terrorism’ – with the penalty being death.
This is a pretty stupid 'finding' since it is contradicted by the comment you claim to find it in. This is yet another example of how zealots manage to mis-state any fact pattern to fit their worldview.
You think the Taliban attacked the World Trade Center?
Of course you do...
when civilians are the main target, there's no need to consider the cause; that's terrorism, it's evil, and it's time to hunt down the perpetrators and bring them to justice.
What if 'hunting down the perpetrators' is not the real or even the stated goal? That implies that there IS a rational (even objective and distanced) attempt to discern culpability among the enemy, the 'them'.
A former IDF soldier and historian of genocide is deeply disturbed by a recent trip to Israel
You would have made a good Nazi for the Reich back in the day. You have all the same beliefs.
I hope you're not sitting on your yarmulke because you just soiled your panties.
I’m agnostic Misek. So when are you going to Iran so you can murder Jews?
Since when did so many genocidal Zionist/Nazi enthusiasts start participating in the Reason community comment section?
I’m at least glad Tuccille fairly succinctly demonstrated for us all where he’s coming from. I’m going to see if we can’t Reason to mandate his participation in the Reason staff counseling sessions.
This kind of moral clarity confuses and agitates the resident philistines here.
* Checks to see if SQRSLY equated the worst act of terrorism committed on the Jewish people to J6 and "Hang Mike Pence"
Yep, like clockwork.
How many Israelis were killed according to the Hannibal Doct...I mean "friendly fire"?
Did you plan to address how Israel created and fostered Hamas? Inquiring minds want to know.
Refuted.
Seriously Misek, fuck off. Just go back to Stormfront.
The UN has straight up said that an occupied people are allowed to use violence against their occupiers. Furthermore, the Hamas incursion was aimed at the nearby military installations but the Israeli government, for some mysterious reason, made the music festival organizers change locations the week before. The people killed in the Kibbutzim were 1) Current or reserve IDF (including the elderly) and 2) Killed by Israeli tank and chopper fire.
"The UN has straight up said that an occupied people are allowed to use violence against their occupiers."
Show me where it says occupied people can rape and target civilians as part of their military operation against occupation.
"Furthermore, the Hamas incursion was aimed at the nearby military installations but the Israeli government, for some mysterious reason, made the music festival organizers change locations the week before. The people killed in the Kibbutzim were 1) Current or reserve IDF (including the elderly) and 2) Killed by Israeli tank and chopper fire."
Assuming that non uniformed soldiers unbound by the Geneva convention attacking a nation is UN kosher as long as it attacks "military installation", please explain to me why Hamas soldiers raped and killed people who weren't military and were fighting back at them.
Reported.
October 7 Offered a Stark Choice Between Good and Evil
so does Tuesday, November 5... and btw - the Rs are not the evil ones (in case some might be under some delusion)
October 7th was a stark example of "Good versus Evil" is partially true, as Hamas exhibited a stark example of "Evil", but not sure that I would categorize Israel as "Good".
Since October 8th there has been a stark example of "Good versus Evil" is similarly partially true, as the response of Israel has exhibited a stark example of "Evil", but not sure that I would categorize Hamas as "Good".
Perhaps, one could make the case that the "Innocent Citizens" of both Gaza and Israel are an example of "Good", but these "Innocent Citizens" voted for their governments, so it is more likely that there are a minority of "Innocent Citizens" that could be seen as examples of "Good", but are largely ineffectual and lack any power.
The solution is the expulsion from power both Hamas in Gaza and the ruling parties in Israel to be replaced by the minority of "Innocent Citizens" who are willing to make a fresh start instead of rehashing the past. At some point, enough is enough and it's time to start rebuilding trust and build a new shared reality.
How, exactly, should Israel have responded to the October 7 attack, then, since you believe that their conduct following that has been evil?
And please don't use platitudes about "be more mindful of civilians". What strategy, PRECISELY, should they have used to to spare more civilians while still freeing their own citizens being held hostage and capturing or killing the terrorists who attacked them?
Don't attack hospitals? Well, that would make it impossible to strike back at the terrorists, since the terrorists were using hospitals to hide weapons, operatives, and hostages.
Don't attack civilian areas? Well, again, Hamas was hiding in civilian areas. So what's your brilliant strategy for taking the fight to Hamas without harming the civilians that they are choosing to hide behind?
There's a reason why, in a wartime situation, if you put military assets amongst civilian populations, and your enemy attacks those assets, the resulting civilian casualties are considered a War Crime on YOUR part, not your enemy's.
"How, exactly, should Israel have responded to the October 7 attack"
It all depends what their aims were. If they wanted the return of the prisoners and minimal suffering for all, they should have responded to the Hamas offer of Oct. 8th last year and organized an exchange. If they were willing to sacrifice the prisoners and concentrate on making Gaza uninhabitable, their present, chosen course of action should suffice.
You pretty much nailed it.
It saddens me to see what the Zionists are doing to the people of Israel let alone everyone else.
Israel coordinated October 7 2023.
Their “response”, genocide, was planned long in advance.
Does anyone really believe that it’s a coincidence that Israel removed its defences, emptied its military bases and didn’t respond for 6 hours?
I wonder what the Israeli hostages and dead would have to say about being the bait in a trap, set to initiate the Israeli holocaust in Gaza.
Israel created Hamas and controlled it with billions of dollars in nefarious cash payoffs.
How many lies in this article?
*) Hamas is not an Iran proxy, it started as a Mossad proxy.
*) No babies were murdered on 10/7 by Hamas, nor were there any rapes. Hamas was on a very time-sensitive mission: as quickly as possible, acquire hostages and retreat to Gaza, i.e., no time to find women to rape or babies to kill. The large bulk of the fatalities on 10/7 were the result of IDF executing the Hannibal Directive - kill anyone that might become a hostage, that is the testimony of ALL of the survivors of Hamas' raid. Almost all of the hostages were NOT civilians, when listed in the newspaper, they had ranks listed by their names. The kibbutzim that were raided were military outposts.
*) Hamas "embedding" themselves in hospitals, etc. is clearly another lie. The entire Gaza strip is only 5 miles by 20 miles, packed with 2,200,000 people. Where could Hamas go that was not close to civilians? Israel has shown time and time again that it has no regard for women, children or any other civilian - all are subhuman cattle.
*) Hamas did not execute any hostages, all of their deaths were the result of IDF, again executing the Hannibal Directive.
*) If the Resistance kills a civilian despite their clear and best efforts to avoid it, it is deemed "terrorist", but Israel's negligent and reckless planting bombs in pagers, many of which were used by civilians, is just an accident - collateral damage - unavoidable.
Israel dropped over 500 2,000 pound bombs on and around the apartment building housing Nasrallah, killing HUNDREDS of civilians, and Tuccille is shocked, SHOCKED that France has stopped sending Israel weapons. What a sociopathic MONSTER (I mean Tuccille, not Macron, although I guess Macron is, too, for other reasons).