The End of the Voting Methods Debate
People are sick of being forced to vote for the "lesser evil." A new voting method may fix the problem.

A voting method is the procedure at the heart of an election that specifies what information is to be gathered from voters, and how that collected information is to be utilized to determine the winning candidate. The U.S. Constitution is mute as to what voting method should be employed. The simplest, known as "plurality," has historically been the default, and still dominates as the voting method for U.S. public elections. Plurality allows each voter only to vote for a single candidate. The candidate receiving the largest number of votes is the winner.
At about the time of the American Revolution, two French scholars, Jean-Charles de Borda and Nicolas de Condorcet, pointed out some of plurality's serious problems. A 240-year-long debate ensued. Scores of voting methods have been proposed and argued as the best replacement for plurality. If any of the many arguments were truly sound, convincing, and clearly superior to all others, plurality would have been replaced long ago and the nation would already be living happily ever after. However, the only widespread agreement has been that plurality really does need to be replaced. It is even worse than Condorcet and Borda thought.
Plurality is killing us. It is a cause of the increasing polarization that is rending the fabric of our society. It has forced voters to elect presidents that the majority of the voters themselves oppose. People are sick of having to vote for the "lesser evil."
A new voting method, AADV (Approve/Approve/Disapprove Voting), was proposed in 2020. Each voter has the option to approve of either one or two of the candidates, and also has the option to disapprove of one candidate. Each candidate's approvals and disapprovals are separately summed. Disapprovals are then subtracted from approvals to obtain the net approvals for each candidate. The candidate with the most (positive) net approvals is declared the winner. If no candidate achieves positive net approvals, NOTA (None Of The Above) has won. If NOTA should win, all candidates are disqualified and a new election must be held with new candidates.
AADV promises to fix problems with voting methods to the greatest extent that they can be fixed, and thereby end the debate. Here is the logic that supports that claim.
The very first step for designing or selecting a good voting method (or anything for that matter) is to correctly and concisely define what a good voting method should do. It should be easy for everyone to agree that the primary and overriding purpose of any and every (public) election is to make the "best" choice of the candidates for the office being filled (with the caveat that decision-making power be kept "reasonably dispersed"). A fairly large number of voters will make these decisions; there is no choice but to lightheartedly assume that collectively they do possess the knowledge and wisdom to make good ones.
When about to mark a ballot for a particular race, each voter has an "opinion" in their brain about each of the candidates in that race. Sometimes that opinion will be strongly positive for a candidate they consider to be "very good"—the voter would be very happy and satisfied if that candidate wins. Sometimes the opinion will be strongly negative and the voter would be very dissatisfied if that candidate should win. Of course, a voter's satisfaction regarding a candidate might be anywhere between strongly positive and strongly negative, including zero (no opinion). It also happens quite often that a voter's opinion of a candidate is zero because they are not informed and simply do not know enough about that candidate to have any opinion—most elections with three or more candidates have lots of this type of no opinion.
There are many voters, each with their own set of opinions about each of the candidates in the race. It is possible (virtually certain with large numbers of voters) that, for any particular candidate, some voters will have positive opinions and some will have negative ones; some of them may be no opinions. How should a voting method process this data to identify the correct winner?
The only reasonable conclusion to be reached is that the best candidate, the one which best represents the voters' collective opinion, is the one which has the highest (or most positive) net total of all opinions (that is, positive opinions minus negative ones). Any number of "no opinions" must not affect the decision in any way. Thus: The best possible choice is that result (chosen candidate) which maximizes voter satisfaction, net of dissatisfaction, when summed over all voters who voted. There is no better way to translate the collective knowledge, judgment, and wisdom of the voters into the best choice. This is the overriding and only objective that a voting method must have.
Much smoke has been generated arguing about the "fairness" of various voting methods. That is not a crucial issue. Neither of the above two definitions says anything about "fairness," so such debates have served only to misdirect attention. However, if anyone is worried about fairness, it would be hard to think of any fairer outcome than always choosing the candidate in every election that maximizes voters' satisfaction, just exactly as the definition specifies.
To understand the ramifications, think about the simplest possible election: a one-candidate election. There actually are one-candidate public elections in many states. They are called "judge retention elections." In every respect, these are one-candidate elections—voters vote to elect (or not elect) a single candidate to serve a term of some number of years in a certain capacity.
How does plurality work for one-candidate elections? Not very well at all! Since plurality allows each voter to vote only for one candidate, the candidate will always be elected. That is why judge retention elections allow voters to vote either "Yes" or "No" (satisfied or dissatisfied). The "No" votes are subtracted from the "Yes" votes and the sum has to be positive (more "Yes" votes than "No" votes) in order to reelect the candidate. It's called a "referendum."
However, there certainly are plenty of races in regular elections where only one candidate is on the ballot and for which the plurality voting method is employed. These are sham elections since voters have no ability to reject that candidate or otherwise affect the result. Note that instant-runoff voting (indeed, all the ranked-choice methods), approval voting, STAR voting, Condorcet (and substantially all other advocated methods) have this same problem: They do not allow any voter to ever express dissatisfaction with any candidate.
Now, think about two-candidate elections in which one of the two candidates is to be elected. It must be determined how satisfied (or dissatisfied) voters would be if candidate A were to be elected, and also how satisfied (or dissatisfied) they would be if candidate B were to be elected. The candidate with whom voters would be most satisfied will then be designated the winner. But it certainly is possible that the voters may be dissatisfied with both candidates. Just as in one-candidate elections, it is critical that voters have the ability to reject either or even both candidates. And just as with one-candidate elections, the opinions of voters dissatisfied with candidate(s) clearly should not and must not be ignored.
Obviously, these conclusions for one and two-candidate elections also are true with any number of candidates. If a voting method is to select winners with which voters are most satisfied, voters' dissatisfactions cannot be ignored and must offset the satisfactions of other voters for each particular candidate.
AADV allows a limited number of both approvals and disapprovals. It works very well for any number of candidates, including just one. However, no real-world voting method can be perfect, and AADV certainly is no exception.
It has been proven (Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem, as extended) that every voting method (other than a dictatorship) can be manipulated to some extent by strategic voting. No voting method can be completely immune to such degradation, but some are much more susceptible to it than others. It is a tradeoff that must be considered when designing or selecting a voting method.
AADV optimizes this tradeoff by collecting the two most important data items—the candidate each voter thinks is best and the candidate each voter thinks is worst—and very little more. A second approval is allowed in order to defuse any motivation to vote for a "lesser evil" instead of each voter's sincere first choice. Allowing additional voter inputs would be expected to degrade performance; additional data cannot help decision making significantly, so it could only be harmful noise and/or attempts to manipulate results through insincere "strategic" voter inputs.
It is known that all voting methods will sometimes make mistakes (i.e., not identify the candidate that maximizes voter satisfaction). A method that makes the fewest and smallest errors, and doesn't ever commit major blunders (like electing a candidate that the majority of voters oppose) obviously is preferred. By the logic, AADV is close to the best that can be done, but how good is it? The accompanying chart summarizes the RMS (Root of the Mean Square—similar to average) error for various voting methods in 600,000 simulated elections of all possible kinds; 10,000 voters sincerely voted in each election.

AADV provides such a large improvement that it can qualitatively improve elections. No longer will parties nominate highly divisive candidates as they will garner lots of disapprovals and not fare well. Winners will be candidates with broad appeal and few negatives; much healthier. Thus, AADV will tend to reduce polarization instead of exacerbating it as plurality does. Electing candidates the majority of voters dislike will be a thing of the past. The "playing field" should become more level, resulting in all candidates being able to receive reasonable media coverage and serious voter consideration. That AADV continues to work extremely well when there are lots of candidates eliminates or greatly reduces the need for runoff elections, and should be expected to elect more widely acceptable candidates in primary elections.
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People are sick of being forced to vote for the "lesser evil." A new voting method may fix the problem.
If you say Ranked Choice Voting, I'm going to punch you in the throat.
The correct winner is the candidate whose election would result in the greatest satisfaction totaled for all voters. ... AADV.
Close enough.
*punches you in the throat*
The correct winner is the one who gets the most votes.
Simple is best.
No - you want a system that optimises across simplicity and fairness.
“Fairness” to whom?
Candidates and voters. For example, your preferred system, where candidates and winners are selected by lot, is clearly unfair as nor reflecting voter preferences at all. OK, you didn't say that choosing candidates and winners by lot is your preferred system, but it is the simplest, and you said it's the best.
What do you mean “by lot”?
Probably randomly. Sure it seems totally arbitrary and unfair, but it's actually better. If candidates are 40% D and 40% R and 20% independent, random picking over many districts will choose them proportionally. Of course, this assumes candidate affiliations match voters.
"The majority of people want it."
It doesn't get any more simple and fair than that.
"Correct" here is begging the question.
+1
The idea of plurality voting polarizing and killing us is like saying steering wheels are responsible for the majority of deaths between cars and 18 wheelers.
Plurality voting is killing us? Go fuck yourself.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
I read right up to
Ranking and algorithmic sorting of personally lesser and greater evils doesn't, in any way, intrinsically reduce the amount of evil on the ballot.
My kids understood the falsehood of this since before they were teenagers, what's your excuse for your continued failure to understand it? Too few downvotes? Too many mistaken upvotes? Or some underlying retardation that no amount of voting will fix?
Yes. Minet goes on about the plurality of our voting system but his proposal doesn't actually address or solve any of the problems listed.
Why, because that’s the way we’ve always done it?
Don't be more stupid than you have to be. There are lots of arguments about advantages and disadvantages of different methods of deciding "who got the most votes" but everyone agrees that plurality voting is the worst of all the different systems.
It’s amazing we have survived for almost 250 years.
Why just two approvals and one disapproval? Why not 5 or 10 or 100 approvals and one disapproval? What's so magical about 2 approvals and one disapproval?
The obviousness of the bias of the AADV voting and the way data that doesn't actually address any/all problems with candidates or voting or partisanship (2 candidates is still the lowest for AADV) and simply reinforces the presumption that AADV is best. Is rather conclusive in a "when you're getting flack you know you're over the target" fashion.
Read the article, your question is addressed.
I love it when people demonstrate that they are entirely capable of dragging their eyes over words without using their brain in the least bit of effort and calling it reading.
You mean where it says "Allowing additional voter inputs would be expected to degrade performance;"? Is that where it explains why 2 Approvals and one Disapproval? Because that doesn't explain why 1 approval and 2 disapproval doesn't make the same amount of sense or fail to degrade performance. The statement itself rather inherently indicates that there's an acceptable limit which the voting method can/should/could instill on it's constituents. An assertion or premise that refutes its own critique of plurality and other voting systems.
But, good work dragging your eyes over *all* the words.
Frankly it doesn’t make much difference. There are primaries before general elections. The cries about only 2-options is just crying cause their guy didn’t take the primaries. Ranked-choice is just putting the two into one.
It is the [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire we live in today promising to allow every voter to loot the market for their own UN-earned criminal intentions that has turned elections into nothing but a gangland battle ground.
Until the majority of voters obtain enough principle to stop electing Al'Capone as sheriff this is going to end real badly. You can't hand over the monopoly of 'Gov-Guns' to criminal minds without consequences. 'Guns' don't inherently make sh*t for you.
The only 'all' human asset 'Gun'-force can provide is ensuring Liberty and Justice for all.
Not a bad idea. Now the question is how to get the Establishment, which is solidly controlled by Deplorables (real Deplorables!) to surrender their chances of ever again seeing a win.
Yeah, my ideal person to tell me how voting should work would be retired physicist.
How about you start with the unavoidable fact we vote for political parties, not individual candidates?
So then is AADV "Team D" or "Team R"? Also, what is it's skin color?
FOAD, spastic asshole.
FALAMANDER, plastic sphincter.
Most voters in AADV would approve of their party's candiate, disapprove of the other party's, and leave the rest blank (assuming there even are any others on their ballot)
Could be. AADV might help in primaries.
I don't think this is workable in elections with dozens of candidates. CA is electing a new senator with an open primary and I had at least three dozen candidates to look at. Having two approve and one disapprove vote is quite constraining in that environment. Ranked choice might be better but who's realistically going to be able to rank #10 and #11?
Roy is right: voting systems are important. The reason we have two stable parties can be shown to be a direct consequence of plurality voting. There are dozens of other systems, each with their own benefits and flaws. Entire books have been written comparing and contrasting.
You have an interesting idea. If you have more than 3 candidates, the majority of people will leave unknowns blank. It's possible that someone can win with only a few dozen votes from friends and family because no one cared enough to downvote them.
Dems would salivate at the chance to manipulate this 'feature'
I expect that the disapprovals will be abused tactically, utterly ruining AADV's selection power.
I still think Condorcet's method is the gold standard, but that's because I don't assign weight to 1st-place choices (they're liable to be Peter-robbing-Paul candidates anyway). Add in a none-of-the-above option to every race, and the article's only complaint against Condorcet is handled (but it remains difficult to explain, so it will never sell).
Simple Approval Voting remains less prone to tactical corruption than this new-fangled AADV (which is like a slim Borda Count in disguise), and AV's simplicity makes it easy to sell. My vote is for AV.
https://electionscience.org/
"Disapprovals will be abused tactically."
No doubt. That's another criteria for a voting system: does it encourage tactical votes, where a voter has an incentive to not vote their true preferences. Good voting systems avoid this.
There's another fun theorem about voting systems. It identifies three potential flaws and proves every voting system must be susceptible to at least one. I don't remember the details but things like removing a losing candidate from a race shouldn't cause a winning candidate to now lose. Don't take my word for that, look up the actual details. It's fascinating, if wonky, stuff.
It’s called Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem.
“I expect that the disapprovals will be abused tactically…”
Indeed. The first thing that struck me upon reading the description of AADV is the room that it leaves for spoilers. As a voter, do I cast my disapproval vote for the candidate whom I despise the most, or the one I dislike who’s got the best chance of being elected? Do I cast it for the candidate with the straightforward deport-all-the-Jews platform, or the one who merely wants us to support Hamas, while leaving our native Jews in peace? For the nationalize-all-megacorporations candidate, or for the one who only wants a 80% corporate income-tax rate?
And given the power of a radical spoiler to draw disapproval votes away from another candidate whose proposed policies lie in the same direction, but not quite so far, doesn’t that give candidates a strong incentive to seek and promote the candidacies of such radical spoilers? Elizabeth Warren might urge AOC to run in the same race, and secretly bankroll her, figuring that she’ll draw away disapproval votes; Donald Trump might try to bring in a candidate who advocates a free-fire zone along the Mexican border.
No. Like it or not, ranked-choice voting seems like the voting method that draws the most power away from spoilers. It’s certainly not perfect, but it seems a lot less game-able than the proposed AADV system.
I hadn't thought of deliberate false-flag operations to draw disapprovals. That idea changes this from just another more complicated system to something that actively encourages gamesmanship.
Right... Consider an election where there are 2 Whigs and one Bull Moose candidate. Let's say voter support is 53-47 Bull Moose in all these scenarios; a small but clear majority. 26.5% of the voters vote pro-Bull Moose and against Whig 1. 26.5% vote pro-Bull Moose and against Whig 2. And 47% vote for both the Whigs and against the Bull Moose.
Both Whigs get net 20.5. Bull Moose gets net 6, coming in *last* (and not even close) despite their candidate having the support of a *majority* of voters.
So the next election, the Bull Moose party decides running one candidate was dumb, and they run 3. Whigs still run 2. As it turns out, the math says the Bull Moose candidates all get net 20; dilution of positive votes is stronger than dilution of negative votes because there are twice as many positive votes to be had. The Whig candidates still get net 20.5, again winning despite lower support.
We have a *third* election. Bull Moose finally figures out that you need to run two, and exactly two, candidates to be optimal. This time, the Whig's candidate 1 is someone the Bull Moose voters can't stand, attracting more negative votes. Both Bull Moose candidates get 53% for and 23.5% against, for a net of 29.5. Whig 1 gets 47% for and 38% against, while Whig 2 gets 47% for and 17% against. Whig 2 wins with a net of 30, despite lower support, just because the other person from his party was clearly worse.
(Note that even if Whig 1 doesn't get the full 47% for, it doesn't help the Bull Moose unless some Whig voters cross over - which they don't have to do; they're free to not cast both positive ballots - or enough Bull Moose voters decide he's not a danger to win and vote against the other guy, which, if enough of them so decide, could actually give that unfavored candidate the victory.)
Never happen.
One man one vote, or GTFO.
Save the “alternate systems” for deep blue shit hole local elections, where they can’t keep their leftist fringe from siphoning DNC votes.
How about one taxpayer, one vote?
I've always thought skin in the game was important.
Sure thing. Include sin taxes, gasoline taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, tariffs, etc... That's everybody.
Great. Another overly complicated replacement, which will offer new and improved opportunities for chicanery, and ultimately leaving us no better off than we are now.
It will still always end up as a choice between Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich.
Right now the choice is between giant douche and Cuthulu.
I’ve said before, in a contest between a shit sandwich and a giant douche, at least the giant douche has *some* utility in that it might help wash some of the stink out of a swampy vag. There is no redeeming utility in a shit sandwich to anyone (except sqrlsy?).
[For sarc, who claims not to know which is which: focus on the notion of cleaning the swamp.]
.
As someone who frequently finds himself choosing the "lesser evil", if I can't disapprove of all the candidates, I wouldn't consider this any kind of improvement over plurality voting.
In a race with more than two choices, but voters can only disapprove of one candidate, that effectively guarantees at least one candidate will have net positive approval.
Note that both the two affirmative votes, and one negative vote, are optional. You CAN cast your negative without casting any positives.
It IS possible for all the candidates to end up in negative territory, if enough people cast only rejection votes, and no approval votes, so that the average vote is negative, rather than positive.
“You CAN cast your negative without casting any positives.”
Yes, but I actively disapprove of all the candidates and this still doesn’t let me vote that position.
“It IS possible for all the candidates to end up in negative territory, if enough people cast only rejection votes, and no approval votes”
Given the AAD voting system as outlined in the article, I would consider such an outcome extremely unlikely.
I'm with Matthew on this one. To get all candidates into negative territory you'd have to have some serious coordination making sure the right amount of people voted negative on each contender. I'd want to see the ability to vote negative a number of times equal to the number of candidates.
I generally like the concept behind this AADV idea, which reflects a very Declaration of Independence and libertarian idea that a sufficient portion of the populace has to actually approve of a leader before they are given power over us.
It wouldn't necessarily require coordination as such, it would just require both candidates to be relatively unlikeable, such that a lot of voters at both ends of the spectrum cast only negative votes.
Another alternative would be to put None of the above on every ballot, and require a majority win to take office.
Again, the scenario you are pushing is extremely unlikely. Winning the lottery levels of unlikely.
An infinitely more likely scenario for a thee way race is:
Republican vs Democrat vs an independent candidate with zero name recognition.
The R & D draw all the disapproves, both ending in net negative territory. The independent wins with only a handful of approves and no disapproves.
Under the AADV system as described in the article, being an unknown with no name recognition becomes a significant tactical advantage.
Agreed, and this is the problem with any system but plurality which relies on just one round: It's not realistic to think the voters are actually evaluating all the candidates on the ballot. And you get pathological results under this system if most of the voters simply ignore one of the candidates, rather than taking them into account.
I think if you want to deal with the problem with plurality elections, there's simply no substitute for having an actual runoff election, in which the voters evaluate the plurality winner and the second runner up. That seriously reduces the potential for genuinely pathological results in elections where the voters aren't obsessively paying attention.
I think the better way to deal with elections where both the candidates are hated more than liked, is to have "none of the above" on the ballot, and runoff. If you get a plurality result, NOTA is in the runoff, and if NOTA wins, the election gets rerun with all the existing candidates disqualified from running.
Here’s my system:
* Pick the top three winners in each district. When they vote in the legislature, they cast as many votes as they won in the election. I call it proxying.
* Pick one random voter as the amateur, a volunteer of course, who proxies all the remaining votes.
If Alice gets 10,000 votes, Bob gets 9,000, Carol gets 2000, and a whole bunch of miscellaneous candidates get 5000, the amateur proxies those 5000 votes.
1. It turns representatives into real representatives. Pretending the current system represents people who expressly voted against the single winner is a fraud.
2. The amateur doesn’t actually represent the disgruntled losing voters, but they obviously wanted to disrupt things, and an amateur who didn’t campaign and has no re-election worries stands a better chance of being disruptive than the mainstream candidates they voted against.
3. It makes it a lot harder for pundits and politicians to predict legislative votes, and vote trading becomes a lot more contentious.
4. Even in 1775 or 1789, the extra calculations would have been manageable. Today they are entirely invisible.
I do like the proxy system. A possible improvement is to just give the top two or three the privilege of voting in chamber, and require the rest to vote electronically and witness proceedings via VR.
The main problem here is that we go from 435 Reps and 100 Senators, to 1740 Reps and 400 Senators. 2140 people proposing laws is too many.
That's not actually a problem. Like I said, just give the top vote getter chamber privileges, the others have to vote through VR. And have some threshold level of support for laws to actually get a vote of the full chamber.
So the amateur "represents", say the Greens and the Conservative party voters. How does he or she reconcile those diametrically opposed "constituencies" to be able to rationally proxy vote for them. Seems like the amateur is just going to vote the way they want to (are bribed or cajoled to) and not in any way meaningfully representing those random leftover voters.
https://x.com/lymanstoneky/status/1809216200682950917?t=0RFvGFVnZpQzJlrb_aqlQQ&s=19
The labor party managed to get a historic majority and gain 200 seats (1/3 of the entire legislature!)
.... by adding ~1.7% to their vote share.
[Thread]
From the thread:
"the insane thing:
it's looking like the British Conservatives + right-wing Reform Party took 43-45% of the popular vote.
that's equal to or maybe MORE THAN their 2019 vote share.
the 2024 British electorate was MORE CONSERVATIVE than the 2019 one!
Labour gained 200 seats!"
Because Reform was explicitly against continued Tory rule for betraying their voting base's interests. The Conservatives lost on their Left and on their Right. They appeal to very few. The Left was not as divided against itself as the Right was in this election, hence they won big.
I see. So if this projects to the US, the MAGA wing of the GOP will make small gains, the traditional wing will fall apart and democrats will completely dominate both the house and senate.
It's happened before. Ross Perot in 1992 siphoned huge amounts off of Bush's base, leading to Clinton's election.
That he only made it on the ballot in most of those states on account of having ballot access laws waived is a point that really rankled with Libertarians, who had to actually comply with those laws to make the ballot. He wasn't just a spoiler, the only reason he was allowed on the ballot in many states was to function as a spoiler.
It's just (D)ifferent.
Yes, this would eliminate “divisive” candidates, but wouldn’t it also just kick the can down the road? The division exists for a reason. The country is at a crossroads. Whatever we pick is going to set a path that will be very hard to walk back from. Eliminating either choice might be worse than choosing just one.
Confrontation is not an enemy, but an opportunity. A better system might be one that lets the loser of a confrontation have a guaranteed rematch after a period of time. So, we try it one way, see if it works, if not, try the other. But at least we’re moving solidly in A direction, not just pretending we don’t need to choose.
Who is the "loser"? The one that comes in second, or the one with the least votes?
Your system seems to require the elimination of more than two candidates from consideration.
Try the winner for a limited time, such as a four-year term, and then have a rematch.
😉
The division exists for a reason. The country is at a crossroads.
Or, the country is at a “crossroads” because so many voters have allowed themselves to be convinced that there are large divisions that can’t be reconciled through civil discussion and democratic elections.
Confrontation is not an enemy, but an opportunity.
That depends greatly on the type of confrontation you mean. A physical, violent confrontation in politics is never positive. A confrontation that can't lead to compromise is rarely positive. A confrontation of ideas debated rationally, with the most persuasive option winning out in the results of free elections is a positive opportunity, most definitely.
I'm no fan of "allowed themselves to be convinced", that's not how "convincing" works at all. People are independent agents, responsible for their own decision-making. The point about what kind of confrontation is spot on, however. A very important qualification!
People are independent agents, responsible for their own decision-making.
That's what I mean by "allowed themselves" to be convinced. As you say, people are independent, thinking beings. No one can be convinced of something as if it was an involuntary response to someone just being so persuasive that they couldn't resist the argument. People choose whether to have an open mind, and they choose whether to be skeptical. (Which are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, both are necessary for critical thinking.)
A better system might be one that lets the loser of a confrontation have a guaranteed rematch after a period of time.
The loser of a contest doesn't always deserve a rematch. Instead, there may be other challengers to the winner that would make for a more competitive match-up.
A debate over 'voting methods' can NEVER achieve a solution because:
1. as is admitted in this article there is no such technical solution that always works to achieve what is thought to be what we want achieved. Debating what cannot happen cannot make it happen. It is a diversion.
2. voting is NOT the way to exercise citizenship. Anyone who is capable enough to understand the requirements of a job subject to choice/election should be not be limited to picking someone else (who will have lifetime immunity from any consequences of anything deemed 'official') to do something in a marketing/manipulation contest and then do the same thing a few years later. And if they aren't capable enough to understand the basis of their decision, then we certainly shouldn't be giving them precisely the same level of 'power' as the first group - in a process that renders all decision making or influence by citizens secret.
3. Worse - it ASSUMES that voting is the sole responsibility of a citizen and that the sole responsibility of a virtuous citizen is to spend a ton of time thinking about voting in the abstract rather than about the governance of the polity. Again a diversion at best.
As Aristotle said - “The citizen in an unqualified sense is defined by no other thing so much as by sharing in decision and office” This does not mean voting for someone else. It means being of the group that discusses the advantageous/harmful, decides whether a particular approach should be nullified, and ultimately decides on whether/how legislation will be implemented or a judicial/magistral judgement is enforced. That process creates telos - the goal of citizenship. And the justice of it is not that someone is claimed to 'represent' others - but that all citizens take turns participating in and being subject to those decisions. It is why we have juries - and how they are selected to be in the pool at any particular time.
You mention the problem of “lifetime immunity”, and then later suggest government by something similar to juries.
Which brings up a question: do you think jurors in our current system should be criminally liable for their votes? Or should they have this immunity thing that many here find appalling?
Which brings up a question: do you think jurors in our current system should be criminally liable for their votes?
The decision they make to convict or acquit? You’re not asking a serious question. Jurors don’t have immunity for other stuff – eg being bribed to make a decision to convict or acquit. Just as two judges went to jail for being bribed by a private prison to oversentence juveniles – see 2008 cash-for-kids scandal.
Further – Thomas Jefferson (a far more talented and less insurrectionist Prez than Trump and apparently far more aware of the requirement of Prez adherence to the law than Roberts and the current SC assclown majority) addressed the question – should a Prez be subject to the law in the performance of his duty in office – specifically in a letter to John Colvin in 1810. An officer is bound to obey orders: yet he would be a bad one who should do it in cases for which they were not intended, and which involved the most important consequences. The line of discrimination between cases may be difficult; but the good officer is bound to draw it at his own peril, and throw himself on the justice of his country and the rectitude of his motives.
OK, I’ll be more specific.
The reason I ask is that one of our esteemed colleagues here, Mr. Lathrop, has suggested – insisted, really – that a procedural ruling that favors someone accused of insurrection, is itself a criminal act of insurrection. Therefore, he says, the SC justices who voted for immunity in the recent case must themselves be put on trial.
Following that logic to its conclusion, wouldn’t jurors who found the justices “not guilty” in that second trial also be guilty of insurrection? Just to sharpen it up a little bit, let’s say the foreman was an open advocate of the “1/6/21 was merely a protest” position, and the other jurors reported he convinced them using arguments that you believe are disingenuous.
If you’re not willing to put the jurors in jail, suppose Defendant Gorsuch asked for a bench trial, and the judge found him not guilty. Lathrop, it appears, would put that second judge on trial – and the third, fourth, etc recursively. How about you?
Just trying to see how far people are willing to go with this “turtles all the way down” argument that if someone isn’t willing to jail alleged insurrectionists, they themselves must be jailed for insurrection.
wouldn’t jurors who found the justices “not guilty” in that second trial also be guilty of insurrection?
No. There are laws and rules and such that apply to jurors. Those are the laws that if violated jurors will get punished. But there is no 'if you make the wrong decision re a murder trial, we'll imprison you for murder and another court will determine that - forever' law. If one of them does enough on the jury to provide evidence for some accomplice after the fact charge, then the juror would be - and should be - subject to that sort of charge.
There is no immunity here - and there shouldn't be. But obviously there is also no ex post facto law in the US. If there is a law already on the books - then you and everyone including the Prez - are (or should be) covered by it.
What Jefferson was saying is exactly what 'tradition' has always been. Rephrased - yeah sometimes the Prez might violate this law or that law. And if that does eventually get challenged in court, then the Prez will have to explain why he did what he did. It is an acceptance that being subject to the rule of law is the ONLY way a Prez can remain accountable to everyone else under the law. There is no Get Out of Jail Free card where the Prez can say FYTW.
If I were President next state of the union, I would come down like a ton of bricks on those SC assholes. Do everything I can to personally humiliate them and to tell the American people and Congress that everything that can be done will be done to undermine this ruling so that all Prez from your truly to forever will remain subject to the rule of law. We don't have kings or emperors in this country. And no future SC nominees will ever again have monarchical/dictatorial tendencies like the current majority.
Jefferson was "less insurrectionist". The author of the Declaration of Independence. Really now.
Further - even in a situation where one might determine that elections are useful BECAUSE the elected must be deemed the representative of the voter - the election day itself is not that decision. eg The Covid 'declaration of emergency' is, by definition, a declaration by the legislature/Prez that the circumstances they face now are not within the authority they were granted on election day. So absent another election to provide that specific authority via another 'consent of the governed' - there is no wonderful magic election black box to deal with that.
There has been a longstanding method - called 'liquid democracy' - to essentially allow for voters to either grant their consent to something directly - or to change and delegate their consent to someone else at any time on any particular issue. Pirate Parties do something similar for their internal decisions/election. It is the sort of technology that could be very usefully recorded via blockchain - except that blockchain advocates are almost all scammy little fucks. So no solution there either.
"People are sick of being forced to vote for the "lesser evil."..."
Read that again; what a steaming pile of shit.
Yes, this guy's method will deliver only the "best" candidates; no more having to, well, compromise!
Gee, maybe next he'll devote his idiocy to finding the "best" economic system and my suspicion has sit that it will be one tried many times, but 'this time...'
We NEVER get to make choices without compromise.
We NEVER get to make choices without compromise.
It’s a called being an adult.
Which is the reason it's so unpopular: MOMMMMMMY!!!!!!
Have each voter cast one numerical vote for each candidate. The number lies between -1 (total rejection) and +1 (complete approval) inclusive.
Wouldn't the rational way to vote that ballot always be to give +1 to your favorite candidate and -1 to all the rest?
I don't have a favorite and would vote -1 for every candidate.
He who most desires power is the least worthy of it.
I'd allocate e/3, to be irrational (divided by 3 so that it was less than 1.0).
How about replacing voting with something like jury duty? Randomly select a technically 'qualified' citizen to do a term in the office. If this citizen prefers not to, repeat. Of course, 'elections' might take a while, and there might even be some downsides to the scheme, but plurality is killing us so we have to do *something*!
I’ve often thought we’d be better off with lotteries than elections.
That’s what I want. 1 chance in 300 million to get a good one.
That's better odds than the current system.
And a guarantee the deep state runs the whole enchilada since the poor random schmuck would have no idea what to do or how the system runs. Easily manupulated, malleable - perfect for the spooks that blackmail the professional politicians with Epstien stings.
It’s a good idea for legislatures or Congress. The randomly picked full psychopaths would be more than balanced out by the randomly picked citizens who are too honest to successfully run for office.
A bit too risky for chief executives, though.
Psychopaths aren't common enough in the general population to compose much of a legislature chosen by sortation. (They're a very high percentage of politicians, though.)
It's not actually a bad approach for legislatures, I think.
I think you are talking about sortition.
“In governance, sortition (also known as selection by lottery, selection by lot, allotment, demarchy, stochocracy, aleatoric democracy, democratic lottery, and lottocracy) is the selection of public officials or jurors using a random representative sample.” - Wikipedia
How about making it so I don't have to care so much what other people want to vote for?
Blasphemy!
Geez, then why even have big government?
That's a plus, not a minus.
Proposal #1 (for single offices) Single Disapproval Voting
Each voter picks the one candidate they despise the most.
Whoever gets the fewest votes wins.
Details:
- Must be on the ballot to win
- Ballot access easy enough that there are typically at least three candidates.
Advantages:
- Very easy to implement.
- More accurately enables what most voters are really trying to express.
- Wreaks havoc with two party system.
------
Proposal #2 (for Congress). Online Subscription
a. No districts, no specific terms, no election days, no fixed total number of members of Congress.
b. Each voter has one voucher.
c. Candidates post their names on a single national list, voters can go online and assign their vouchers to whoever they want, and change anytime they want.
d. Any candidate that gets 400,000 vouchers immediately becomes a member of Congress. This can happen at any time,
e. Any sitting Congressman that drops below 300,000 vouchers immediately gets kicked out This can happen at any time.
f. The numbers are extremely public at all times.
Advantages:
- Everyone actually has a representative they like, that they handpicked from a wide selection.
- If a Congressman pisses off his constituency, they can take eliminative action immediately.
- Congressmen get continuous and obvious feedback on whether they are meeting expectations,
Dumb.
Regarding Proposal #2, I’d be down with Congress still having terms, election days and fixed numbers per state. The change I would make is removing districts and having all representatives be “at large” within their state.
"More accurately enables what most voters are really trying to express."
You're not wrong. Modern election campaigns are all about getting you to hate and fear the other guy and don't really care if you like their guy or not.
Proposal #1: What if I despise all the candidate equally.
Your proposal would GUARANTEE complete CHAOS.
'When about to mark a ballot for a particular race, each voter has an "opinion" in their brain about each of the candidates in that race.'
Nope.
As surveys and discussions with voters have proven, many citizens don't give a shit. Many simply align with a political tribe and vote by color (party or skin). And many who actually have one or more issues they care about, can't remember which candidate is on their side (really).
There was a lawsuit here when they took away the "straight ticket" option on ballots. The argument was that it was discrimination against low information voters (not a protected class) but that low information in turn mapped to a protected class we don't need to name.
Fortunately the lawsuit didn't fly. I think they should go the next step and remove the party labels from the ballot.
See my comment below.
We are not divided because of our method of voting. We are divided because there is a fundamental difference in visions in how to organize society, that most closely aligns with urban, educated, globalist, elites on one side, and more working class, rural, patriotic “commoners” on the other. This divide is becoming increasingly noticeable throughout the West, and no voting gimmick is going to fix it,
I really hate that phrase “organize society.” It implies that we need government to tell people what to do, or else. On the right side you’ve got authoritarians, and on the left side you’ve got totalitarians. They agree that society needs to be controlled by coercion and violence, they only differ on what aspects they want to control and who they want controlling them.
Nobody talks about a third way where society organizes itself (spontaneous order), and government is merely a neutral referee that exists only to enforce the rules.
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”
― Robert A. Heinlein
"only to enforce the rules"
Everyone from hard core libertarians to Pol Pot just wants the rules enforced. The disagreement is over the rules.
There is a big difference between government being a referee and being a player. Pol Pot wasn’t a referee, same with our government that is controlled by Republicans and Democrats.
Oh, we both know what you mean.
My (our?) idea of a neutral referee is someone who would look only at the case at hand, decide which side initiated force, or wants to, and that side loses.
If you asked a socialist progressive, a neutral referee is someone who decides who ranks where on the scale of privilege – in their whole lives and identity, not merely the case at hand – and the less privileged side wins.
If you asked some commenters here, a neutral referee looks at who – in their whole lives and identity, not just the case at hand – is on the right side of the culture war and rules for that person. They might not say it like that but that’s their actual algorithm.
The regulatory state is a player in the game. Progressives gave birth to it. And while conservatives say they want to get rid of it, they sure do like to use it against their enemies.
Speaking of, I wonder if Trump's Deranged Supporters who voice support for the Chevron decision realize how it will fuck up their plans to give Trump the power to round up illegal vermin. Kinda doubt it. If they did they might reconsider their support.
Yeah, the SC decision ends judicial deference to the executive branch.
But the people you are talking about don’t buy into the unitary executive theory*. They believe in a binary executive theory, in which the unelected Deep State is pitted against the elected People’s Hero. They mistakenly think the ruling is for the Hero and against the Deeps. It was really about whether the judicial branch has to submit to the executive branch on ambiguous text, for the purposes of decision being made by the judicial branch, and the answer is no.
*Of course they’ll temporarily believe in a unitary executive if it helps some particular case.
Letting spontaneous order run free is a method of "organizing society". That complaint is really missing the forest for the trees. My point being that there is a significant difference in ideas about what government should and should not do. Tinkering with voting methods is not going to change that.
A proper phrase would be to "organize regulation." The USC/constitution calls for paying for policing ports of entry and describes what to collect to have funding to enable such.
i.e. Too much [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism]. Not enough freedom.
If you want elected officials to be approved by a majority of citizens then require candidates to achieve a majority of eligible voters, not just votes cast. It would be interesting to see how campaigns would try to motivate the middle instead of their base.
Oh, and if no candidate achieves a majority, then the office stays vacant. Can't be any worse.
Typical US midterm election has 45% +/- turnout. No House of Representatives for two years.
Is there a downside?
Worth a try.
No
Drop district representation for districts that cannot claim that a majority of registered voters showed up to vote in a constitutionally required election? Love it: Less expense projected overall!!
Outlaw parties. At the very least reduce the power they have during elections. Set up a primary system not run by parties. Remove all party info from ballots, especially straight ticket voting.
This is a distraction. None of it matters if you have low fidelity in any given vote or sampling method.
If one party or group of people can whimsically migrate voters in or even just invent votes, more complex voting simply obfuscates the malfeasance.
Much like, along those same lines of course, if people come into the country or community or wherever, under one immigration and/or tax/tariff regime, collect a paycheck or welfare and ship that capital back to another community under different immigration and/or tax/tariff regime, the local immigration regime doesn't really mean dick relative to the overall wealth extraction/migration.
AADV and even Condorcet and other voting methods is, metaphorically, solving the self-driving electric car problem so that electric cars can propel us to a carbon-neutral future (for those unclear, if the steering and navigation is critical to carbon neutrality, the propulsion technology isn't carbon neutral and if the propulsion technology is carbon neutral, steering doesn't matter and the conflation of the two is a Mott-and-Bailey to horse trade away your freedoms for your dollars).
I don't think it has a lot to do with voting methods, but rather who the voters themselves are. The predicted end of democratic nations is when the populace discovers they can vote themselves money from the treasury, and we are way past that hence all the debt related spending.
The only question that really remains is if the populace can pull their collective heads out of their asses and take some personal accountability, but I'd put pretty terrible odd's on that.
"The predicted end of democratic nations is when the populace discovers they can vote themselves money from the treasury"
Deserves a repeat. +100000000000
Something the US Constitution never allowed.
I think I hear the same treats going to that yellow dog from Labrador.
The public was willing to pull themselves out of that hole back in '95; The balanced budget amendment was polling so high they had to hold a vote in Congress on it.
They brought it to the floor in several versions, so that everybody who needed to be able to say they'd voted for it could do so, without risk of any one version being sent to the states for an expected easy ratification. (That was Gingrich who did that, if the nation collapses from debt, the epitaph should read, "Murdered by Newt Gingrich.")
I think it's still popular enough that a constitution convention would propose it, and it could be ratified. It's the politicians who won't let that happen, not the people.
Lol, the author freely admits no other system has been found with enough advantage to replace current system, yet now since it is 'killing us', it needs to be replaced with something nice and complicated.
Two super-sarcastic thumbs up...
First problem out of the gate; the whole approve/disapprove things which he holds as being better (yet another flavor of RCV it would seem) would need to assume that much more that the electorate is receiving unbiased info? If disapprovals carry such weight, and you have a media body which is more than happy to visibly align itself against a candidate, truth be damned, couldn't that skew the results just a tad?
We are talking about the same media that has gaslit Biden's senility for 4+ years, and now are pretending they had no idea. Any reasonable person should be now asking how many of those 'anonymous reports' about horrible things Trump supposedly said are actually truth?
Why are leftists always so fixated on figuring out some way to structure the counting of votes in a way that they can endlessly manipulate the results?
Aren't their ideas the bestest?
Or are they doing this because everyone knows they're crap?
No, because they know they are superior, but that not enough peasants agree.
Ironically, the Democrat party doesn't give a fuck what anyone but the donor class thinks. They are the one's most in favor of intellectual anointed ones making all the decisions the lower classes are incapable of making for themselves.
Republicans aren't much better, if they're better at all, but at least they seem to understand that small businesses still exist and believe they should be allowed to exist. Which is, of course, still pretty horrible but 'allowed to exist' is still better than 'prohibited entirely'.
If they arrange and count the peasants' choice of options the right way, the peasants will finally be able to express exactly how much they love having the ability to express their approval of their leaders and other TOP MEN.
Seems like this would tend to produce the "do nothing" candidate who neither excites nor displeases. Sure, you can call it middle of the road or whatever you want but the bottom line would be that if the office being filled NEEDS someone to come in and shake things up, this system will work against the candidate who will do what's needed since the people not wanting that change will cast "disapprove" votes. I suspect there would be other ways to manipulate the outcome too.
The problem with our elections isn't the voters and it isn't the candidates.... it's the F-ING MEDIA which lie lie lie and push a NARRATIVE aimed at electing the MEDIA's choice, not the people's choice. Fix that and you won't need to dick around trying to fix the parts that aren't broken.
"I may look like the downtown gravedigger," vidded the graveyard shift reporter, "... but you can vote for the next sequel to 'That Darn Cat' if you elect Jonathan Smith for your federal house senator this year."
This would exacerbate polarization and negative advertising. Now the only goal is to get voters to favor a candidate. But under AADV, candidates will ask voters not only to favor the candidate but also to disapprove of an opponent.
A new voting method, AADV (Approve/Approve/Disapprove Voting), was proposed in 2020. Each voter has the option to approve of either one or two of the candidates, and also has the option to disapprove of one candidate. ... If NOTA should win, all candidates are disqualified and a new election must be held with new candidates.
I hate to be, you know, libertarian or, uh, minarchist about this but *two* approvals and *one* disapproval overtly assumes and strives to guarantee that candidates are more likely than not to get elected. It rather overtly lowers approvals *below* plurailty.
The 3rd to last paragraph is chock full of capricioiusness and weasel-worded half truths to sell their biased construction as the Goldilocks solution to a Category error/fallacy.
Turn the system around to DDAV with the same rules about NOTA and vacancies, effectively making the creation of new departments and initiatives a more like a majority vote and you've got a decent start.
The most attractive part of this method is being able to vote against people you can’t stand.
Rather than vote to select a candidate, you could vote to reject a specific candidate.
Under the current system, you have to have enough experience and enough of an acceptable record in order to win. States with the very worst voting make write-in votes impossible.
So, in effect, you have two types of elections — one type with untried candidates and one type with experienced candidates.
I do not think that the new method of voting described in the article would be anything of an improvement over having to live with the consequences of choosing a candidate, because you can have a situation where no one gets elected and the vote must begin all over again. Then this probably means that the incumbent continues on in elected role until the vote ends up choosing a new candidate. And extra expense of the election process should be able to claim better value over time. Therefore, the most proper place for such new voting system would be how your corporation chooses its governing members.
Or, let’s say you have five grocers to shop from but only want to go to one of them this year. Your cost-benefit analysis really does not benefit by throwing out all five candidates, because then there is no option to shop. Electing one grocer only to shop at does not offer any leeway at all in case another has a better product at a better price. While having an elected grocer does give you the opportunity to make the most of a more limited range of shopping choices, realize that you are the one managing all the work shopping. In voting, you vote to send someone off to make all concomitant decisions of the office, perhaps without your further input, and with whatever biases may reveal themselves — such as a fondness for improving voter relations by spending money on paper products.
If you vote, you surely would be better off because you are not the one obliged to make decisions of the office with each official vote. Your only net improvement may be causing debt to compound — which obviously benefits accountants — but that is no worse than other politicians who deserve no more than one term.
The choice of a single vote, which you can cast in the positive or negative, doesn't have a lot of the downsides that other methods (like the one in the article) have. The main downside is confusion; inevitably some people would cast a negative vote thinking it was a positive vote, or vice versa.
A new voting method, AADV (Approve/Approve/Disapprove Voting)
Oh for fuck's sake, the stiches from Ranked Choice and Top 2 Primaries haven't even been removed and we're already coming up with yet another radical surgical 'fix' to our beleaguered democracy?
The way the thing is even more transparently sycophantic is what blows my mind.
Nothing says "libertarian" or "minarchist" like giving everyone *two* chances to approve of their TOP MEN while benevolently granting those filthy Mises Caucus assholes their opportunity to disagree.
It's like a minimum wage of voting. Why not give everyone 25 approvals per hour?
Lol. This is the first comment in this thread that I’ve actually liked. Rick James comes through again, bitch!
How do they generate a random selection error?
Do they assign a true preference for a given candidate by each voter then Monte Carlo over some error rate for each voter such that they might randomly vote for a candidate is not their true preference?
Approve/Approve/Approve/Disapprove is flawed because it doesn't allow a voter to disapprove of all candidates.
The simple solution is to explicitly list None Of The Above Are Acceptable (NOTA) in every race and use ranked choice voting.
How are all those (D) ballot harvesters going to fill out the nursing home dementia patients ballots for drop off in the unsupervised drop boxes? It will become less plausible that 100% of nursing home residents filled out their ballots themselves! That would be terrible! /s
In "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" Heinlein proposed a method wherein each minority could be represented in each legislative deliberation:
“But if representative government turns out to be your intention there still may be ways to achieve it better than the territorial district. For example you each represent about ten thousand human beings, perhaps seven thousand of voting age—and some of you were elected by slim majorities. Suppose instead of election a man were qualified for office by petition signed by four thousand citizens. He would then represent those four thousand affirmatively, with no disgruntled minority, for what would have been a minority in a territorial constituency would all be free to start other petitions or join in them. All would then be represented by men of their choice. Or a man with eight thousand supporters might have two votes in this body. Difficulties, objections, practical points to be worked out—many of them! But you could work them out . . . and thereby avoid the chronic sickness of representative government, the disgruntled minority which feels—correctly!—that it has been disenfranchised. “But, whatever you do, do not let the past be a straitjacket!"
Oh for crying out loud. You don't need all that statistical pseudo-Bayesian voodoo bullcrud. Plurality voting is just fine, just add None Of The Above to the ballot. If NOTA wins, the election is voided and held again. But I guess heaven forbid we should be without our political overlords for even one day.
1. Plurality IS NOT the system this post claims is used now.
2. NEITHER plurality NOR the system this post claims are widely used in the US.
3. The proposed solution is objectively WORSE than plurality, the system this post claims is current, AND the actual current system. It has ALL of the drawbacks the article claims it would address built in.
If NOTA should win, all candidates are disqualified and a new election must be held with new candidates.
Sounds like a great way to never have a result. How many rounds do you go through before you declare there's no way to get a result? Is the office empty during this time?
....and to have the deep state run things without having to manipulate the pols that would otherwise have been elected to vet their decisions. A big W for the deep state (which, of course, just happens to be stocked chock full of globalist progressives and socialists)
Well, since you can cast 2 positive ballots and only 1 negative, I'm guessing that NOTA would be rather uncommon. Especially if you allow write-ins; nobody's going to bother with negative votes for write-ins, so even if all major candidates are rejected, some random guy is going to vote for himself and win.
Again the method is, itself, rather intentionally gamesmanship/deception.
Trump, Biden - pick one
vs.
Trump, Biden, Oliver - approve of two, disapprove of one
Why not disapprove of two and approve of one? Why not disapprove of all 3? We're fixing democracy here! FYTW!
So many idiots can barely grasp the concept of "vote for only one". I shudder to think of the lines on election days when this is in place.