Brickbat: Civilian Collateral

Four Miami-Dade police officers each face up to 30 years in prison after being indicted for manslaughter in the deaths of a kidnapped UPS driver and a bystander in a shootout at a busy intersection. The incident began when Lamar Alexander and Ronnie Jerome Hill robbed a jewelry store and hijacked a UPS truck with the driver still inside; it ended in an intersection packed with cars. Rodolfo Mirabal, Leslie Lee, Jose Mateo, and Richard Santiesteban were indicted on one count each of manslaughter with a firearm for the death of the UPS driver, while Mirabal received an additional indictment for the death of a motorist stuck in traffic.

Comments

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The linked article doesn't answer the most basic questions, like what started the shootout, why a that intersection? For instance, if the jewel thieves got stuck in traffic and started the shootout, then what else were the cops supposed to do except shoot back? Did they get stuck in traffic because of general commute traffic, or because police cornered them?

The linked article links to an earlier article behind a paywall.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I found this article which says ...

The tragedy began when Alexander and Hill robbed the Regent Jewelers store in Coral Gables. When officers arrived, shots were being fired inside the store. A store worker was hit in the head by a ricochet, but survived.

They led officers on a long chase into southern Broward County, running red lights and narrowly avoiding crashes. The chase attracted television news helicopters, which began broadcasting it live nationally.

The hijackers fired from inside the van, which finally stopped in a middle lane at a busy intersection, caught behind a wall of vehicles at a red light.

Witnesses said gunfire suddenly erupted as officers ran between cars toward the van. Ordonez, Alexander and Hill were killed inside the van. Cutshaw was found dead in his car. Investigators have not said if Ordonez and Cutshaw were shot by police, the robbers or both.

Another article, half behind a paywall, starts out with more detail which matches this.

There must be more to this story. What were the cops supposed to do, let the thieves carjack somebody else? Did they know the UPS driver was still inside?

[mad.casual]

The complete lack of reporting on Alexander and Hill is astounding as fuck too.

It’s *exactly* like the old passive-voice police reports of “Shots were fired, people were in the way, and nothing else happened.” except in favor of the people who robbed the jewelry store, hijacked a truck, shooting people all along the way instead of the people paid to passively respond.

To the point that the parts of my brain that I try to keep covered in foil are tingling. [Begins rocking and chanting, “I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I’m a this shit doesn’t add up and it’s obvious theorist.”]

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

Honestly, reading that article, I don't really feel as though I'm in favor of the cops being charged. I see little reason to think that the two aspiring pastors didn't shoot the UPS driver as soon as they hijacked his truck. They do not come across as people particularly concerned with the welfare of others. Which is odd since they only robbed that jewelry store in order to start a church with a youth ministry. They were really turning their lives around.

[Chipper Chunked Chile Con Congress (ex NCW)]

Hell, the linked article itself was paywalled for me.

It's a shame those police shot all those people and those two honor students, though. 😉

[Fist of Etiquette]

For panicked cops, the world is their backstop. These ones were hiding behind cars occupied by regular commuters. I never thought there would be any hint of accountability from this.

That being said, I don't expect them to get convicted of anything but if they do I don't expect jail time. And I'm not sure they should get jail time.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

What were they supposed to do, run over the tops of cars? If the thieves / carjackers were already shooting at the cops, there's only one way to stop them, which is run towards them and shoot back. If they had just left, the thieves would have found more hostages.

Unless more info comes up, I don't see what else the cops could have done. Can't let them go, they had already shot people during the jewelry store robbery before the cops got there, carjacked two vehicles, and shot at cops during a 20 mile chase. Did they try to surrender and the cops shot them in cold blood?

[ducksalad (5/30 bad, really!)]

“there’s only one way to stop them, which is run towards them and shoot back.”

My complaint, and I believe Fist’s, is that they didn’t do this at first. Instead it appears they picked a car occupied by an innocent bystander and essentially used that person as a human shield.

Who knows, in the moment of truth, I might also panic and hide behind an innocent person in a gunfight. We never know until we’re tested. But I’m pretty sure I’d despise myself afterward.

Based on the limited info available, I’d say the UPS driver was taken hostage by the robbers, so that death is on the robbers. The commuter was selected by the cops, so that death is on the cops.

[Think It Through]

Fixed.

My complaint, and I believe Fist’s, is that they didn’t do this at first. Instead it appears they picked a car occupied by an innocent bystander and essentially used that person the car as a human shield.

[ducksalad (5/30 bad, really!)]

“We were only using the walls of the schools and hospitals as shields, and therefore are totally innocent of any doctors and patients who got killed.” Convincing?

In the video it appears that at least one driver is trying hard to push his or her way out of the line of fire, and the cops are moving to make sure that car which necessarily includes the driver stayed between themselves and the robbers. The cops knew with certainty that the car was occupied by a person who was not volunteering to die, and made their decision.

I’ve already granted that it was split second decision and maybe many of us would do the same. Of course no one is suggesting they wanted the driver to die, which is why the charge is not murder.

Since we don’t have all the facts maybe the driver killed was different that the one they were hiding behind.

[Dude 2]

Well, Golly Gee! I can't imagine what else those fine officers could have done! Sure, they put innocent lives at risk by going "on a long chase... and narrowly avoiding crashes" and by engaging in a gun battle in a busy intersection, but they were risking those innocent lives to protect those innocent lives, to protect them from the people who were trying to get away from the police and away from the intersection in which those innocent lives were trapped.
How can people not see how simple it is? The police couldn't let them go and they couldn't have waited for a better opportunity. If they let them go, innocent lives wouldn't have been taken, but the jewels would have remained stolen. If the police waited, they would have been at a disadvantage relying on the coordination by radio of hundreds of heavily armed fellow police officers possessing the benefits of police cars, police motorcycles, police armored personnel carriers, police helicopters, spike strips, body armor, night vision scopes, and trained dogs. So what were they supposed to do? Not shoot into the enclosed van containing innocent people, even though they have guns, bullets, qualified immunity, and a union? Of course not! We should be realistic and not expect them to resist the temptation to blast away. They may be heroes, but they're still only..., well, they're still barely human.