Be Skeptical of That 60 Minutes Report on Havana Syndrome
Russiagate 2.0?
Havana syndrome, an alleged malady that purportedly affects U.S. intelligence and military officials, is back in the news thanks to an investigative report by 60 Minutes. The report was accompanied by a big, splashy headline: "Russian nexus revealed during 60 Minutes Havana Syndrome investigation into potential attacks on U.S. officials." That's right: CBS has decided that the mysterious ailments—headaches, earaches, etc.—afflicting some American service personnel are perhaps explained by a secretive Russian program to create energy weapons.
The 60 Minutes report begins by interviewing "Carrie," an FBI agent who claims that she was struck by just such an energy weapon while at home in Florida. Host Scott Pelley, providing narrative voiceover, explains that in order to protect her identity, CBS is redacting her full name and disguising her appearance.
This is Carrie.
As pointed out by numerous commentators (as well as BuzzFeed), Carrie's "disguise" is hilariously inadequate and will not protect her identity in any meaningful way. What was 60 Minutes thinking?
But this is hardly the only thing wrong with the report, which combines breathless alarmism about foreign malfeasance with a healthy dose of outright science fiction—energy beams!—in order to advance the mainstream media's favorite James Bond–esque narrative: Everything is Russia's fault.
"The one thread common among most if not all of my clients," Mark Zaid, an attorney who represents alleged Havana syndrome victims, told 60 Minutes, "is that they were all doing something relating to Russia."
What Happens in Havana
Let's back up. Havana syndrome was first reported by a CIA officer stationed in Havana, Cuba, who went to the U.S. embassy there to complain about headaches and hearing loss. Dozens more people reported similar symptoms, tied to a mysterious noise.
This noise was not produced by some kind of sonic weapon, however. It turned out to be crickets. Literal crickets.
And yet, this did not put Havana syndrome panic to rest, even though subsequent analysis by medical experts and U.S. intelligence suggests that the condition is not real. In 2022, the CIA concluded that the symptoms described by various officials were not caused by "a sustained global campaign by a hostile power." The FBI's analysis was that Havana syndrome is a "mass sociogenic illness," which sounds pretty scary, but actually means that the symptoms are essentially caused by social contagion, under conditions of extreme stress, paranoia, and among members of an insular community. Writer Natalie Shure likened it to the "demonic fits" experienced by girls during the Salem witch trials.
"It means that the perceived diagnosis spreads socially, almost like an infectious pathogen would, with symptoms either triggered, exacerbated or wrongly ascribed to a phony cause," she wrote in a November 2021 piece for Slow Boring. "People experience various maladies all the time and the cause is not always clear."
According to Shure, the idea that a directed energy ray could produce the described symptoms without burning the victim's skin or frying their internal organs should be met with intense skepticism.
"There's no reason to believe the Russian government is responsible for 'Havana Syndrome' because there is absolutely no reason to believe that it's a distinct, novel disease inflicted by an outside force of any kind," she wrote.
Aches and Pains
Intelligence officials are capable of making mistakes, of course. (See: the Iraq War.) The scientific consensus often misses important facts. (See: COVID-19.) But the vast majority of experts who have looked into Havana syndrome concluded, fairly uniformly, that a hostile foreign power is not afflicting people with these symptoms—and we ought to treat this as a fairly robust baseline assumption. That does not mean the alleged victims are faking their symptoms, but just that the symptoms are incredibly common, and can be explained by any number of other things.
Given all this, I was surprised that the 60 Minutes report did not generate more immediate skepticism. National Review penned an editorial in response to the findings that chided President Joe Biden for not responding to this new, sinister Russian threat with enough force. The Wall Street Journal called the report "impressive." USA Today speculated that perhaps the mystery of Havana syndrome's origins had been effectively "solved." (On the other hand, some voices on both the right and left were less impressed, including Ohio Republican Sen. J.D. Vance and progressive writer Jeet Heer.)
One might have hoped that other media outlets—if not CBS News itself—would have probed the potential motivations of the people coming forward now. One of the key witnesses in the 60 Minutes report, former Pentagon investigator Greg Edgreen, has now started up a company that is seeking federal grant money to fund treatment programs for Havana syndrome (a fact the report concedes at the very end of the segment).
Then there's the Helping American Victims Afflicted by Neurological Attacks Act of 2021. (HAVANA ACT, get it?) This law instructs the federal government to compensate victims of Havana syndrome. As economists always point out, if you want more of something, subsidize it.
Worth Watching
Speaking of terrifying science fiction weapons…is anybody else watching Netflix's 3 Body Problem? Reason's Peter Suderman has written a terrific review of the new series, which is adapted from the books by Liu Cixin. In 3 Body Problem, humanity makes contact with a distant alien species that proceeds to surveil earth on a massive scale, forcing our scientists to prepare for an eventual hostile encounter. Cixin's books are explicitly critical of the Chinese Communist Party, and contain a depiction of a brutal struggle session; the Netflix adaptation begins with this scene.
"As with the opening sequence, the parallels with China's totalitarian surveillance regime are clear: Chinese citizens are always being watched, always being spied upon, creating a climate of fear and distrust and paranoia, and repressing the sort of free back and forth that is necessary to both scientific progress and cultural cohesion," writes Suderman. "Indeed, the aliens explicitly intend to slow or block scientific discovery. And a fractured and distrustful humanity that cannot negotiate its differences and disputes makes for an easier enemy to conquer."
That said, the scene that I can't stop thinking about is one that takes place midway through the season, in the episode called "Judgment Day." If you've seen it, you know which one I'm talking about it. The good guys—are they the good guys?—unleash a terrifying new technology that eliminates a perceived threat; I won't spoil it more than that, but suffice it to say that "Judgment Day" makes for one of the most gripping horror sequences I've ever watched, and reminiscent of the spectacular wildfire attack on the Great Sept of Baelor in Game of Thrones season six (not least of all because Jonathan Pryce is involved in both).
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CBS?
60 Minutes?
Am I supposed to pay the slightest attention?
A friend of mine called the show “60 Blivits”. His assessment was dead on.
I can’t disagree with that.
If you don’t pay the slightest attention, your opinion about the subject (the 60 Minutes piece) isn’t worth much.
Not to mention “Gulf War Syndrome” which was supposed to have been caused by being “exposed” to burn pits; and “Agent Orange Syndrome,” neither of which has EVER been even remotely supported by any scientific evidence. But determined Congress Critters trying to ingratiate themselves with Veterans associations repeatedly insisting on “compensation” for non-existent medical conditions can accomplish what science cannot. It’s almost as if getting free stuff from gubmint was a thing!
I was in in Desert Storm and around burn pits frequently. I was also exposed to the airborne oil soot after the Iraqis blew up the uncapped Kuwaiti oil wells on their way out of Kuwait. Flash forward to around 2008 and I suddenly start developing hypersensitivity to dust and similar particulates. Which is odd, as I have never smoked, nor do breathing disorders run on either side of my family.
I realize that doesn’t conclusively prove anything. But there appears to be at least a very strong correlation between the things I was exposed to and a variety of pulmonary disorders. I could be wrong.
I had(/have) a medical condition called pseudopheochromocytoma. The medical profession is not very good in figuring out what’s going on in medical conditions that are rare…particularly if the symptoms are transient.
My brother, at age 62, just died of colon cancer that spread to his liver. Zero family history of any cancer. Generally healthy lifestyle (never smoked). Doctors attributed it to exposure he had in Iraq during desert storm.
Robby, U.S. visitors to the Soviet Union and its allies started complaining about mysterious maladies back in Stalin’s day, and on through the Reagan administration, but those stating that they thought they had been poisoned in the course of their travels were reflexively denounced as paranoid hypochondriacs by journalists on the left.
But back then, the USSR _was: well and truly killing people at home and abroad – it was what the Second Directorate of Putin’s old firm did for a living. Fast forward past the end of the Evil Empire , and what have we got but Putin in the Kremlin , and instead of biowarfare leak rumors, honest to gosh nogoodniks putting polonium in teacups and nerve gas on doorknobs in England’s green and pleasant land.
That there are Beltway grifters on the case is to be expected- they have to make a living too, and lots of retiring diplomats would like to have pensions boosted in the light of hazards real or imagined, but at the end of the day, Moscow and its former allies still have blood on their hands , including the guys in Havana backing Venezuela’s filibustering on Guyana’s border.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that people aren’t out to get you!
Well now I’m convinced.
The US needs to give Ukraine ten times as much aid so they can counter these terrifying new weapons. Otherwise Putin will invade all of Europe.
“is anybody else watching Netflix’s 3 Body Problem”
Yes, and after 1 episode I’m glad people here warned me how different it is from the book. This is the show’s version of a Chinese man named Wang.
Girl Power!
Damn, Asians aren’t just getting screwed over in favor of Amerimutt women in colleges, they’re flat out getting race and gender swapped with these same people in media now.
Quoting the FBI and intelligence community is not very useful.
But I have always been skeptical of Havana Syndrome.
On the other hand, I was skeptical the CIA would try to kill Fidel with exploding cigars.
Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to sound plausible.
I doubt we the public will ever know the truth about Havana Syndrome.
Just because the KGB used to assassinate expat dissidents does not mean they have some secret energy ray that make everyone inside an embassy building sick! Investigators can figure out what killed a murder victim. If no one can figure out what could even theoretically cause Havana Syndrome, it’s probably because it’s imaginary.
Or they don’t want to admit it’s real for whatever reasons. I’m not saying it is real, but it could be.
When your list of symptoms is both long and vague with little consistency, it’s highly unlikely that any single thing is causing all of them. This is a big red flag right off the bat that some so-called “syndrome” is actually some totally unrelated problems being lumped together for social or political reasons. I’d be the last to deny that the Cuban and Soviet regimes got up to some seriously shady shit, but I don’t buy into Havana syndrome.
“But I have always been skeptical of Havana Syndrome.”
Go to the 60 Minutes piece. Watch it all…or at least watch from minute 16 to the end (roughly 10 minutes).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdPSD1SUYCY
If you’re interested in trying to puzzle out the truth, come back here, and we can talk.
Repost of a link from yesterday on Havana Syndrome:
https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/havana-syndrome-hysteria-classified-documents-reveal-skepticism-of-foreign-actors-bolster-role-of-psychogenic-illness/
>crickets<
My two-word theory for Havana Syndrome:
Mold
Psychosomatic
Mold seems like the most likely culprit.
Jet lag and too much cheap vodka?
No, many people reported symptoms tied to the abrupt appearance of a sound.
, humanity makes contact with a distant alien species that proceeds to surveil earth on a massive scale, forcing our scientists to prepare for an eventual hostile encounter.
They aren’t there to surveillance. They are disrupting scientific discovery so that humanity can’t defend themselves when they arrive 400 years later. The aliens are worried about giving humanity enough time to go through a scientific break through.
I like the way you think. You need a newsletter so you can bleg for subscribers.
Literally the plot of the book.
Is Occam’s Razor broken?
By a Russian space laser no doubt.
Occam’s Razor is useful for investigating natural phenomena. It is a hindrance for investigating the actions of spy agencies. Natural phenomena have no malice or intention to deceive us. On the other hand, malice and deceit are the bread and butter of spy agencies.
Occam’s Razor says it is a natural phenomenon and not the actions of spies moron.
“Occam’s Razor says… ”
Occam’s Razor says nothing. It’s a razor. Another name for it is the principal of parsimony, basically, the simplest explanation is the best. But spies don’t work that way. They conduct complicated operations to get what they want. The principle of parsimony will only lead you astray.
No, Occam’s Razor is very useful in evaluating the 60 Minutes piece.
Spies do work that way. Hyper-competent cabals flying totally under the radar are unlikely. Flawed humans doing sometimes stupid things that seem like a good idea from their limited perspective at the time is a much more likely explanation. To give one example, MKULTRA is documented to have actually existed. But there’s zero evidence the CIA actually developed any reliable, predictable mind control techniques.
“Is Occam’s Razor broken?”
No, it’s not broken. Watch the “60 Minutes” piece. Preferably all of it, but at least from minute 16 to the end. If you’re interested in discussing what Occam’s Razor might say about the episode, particularly from minute 16 onward, come back and we can talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdPSD1SUYCY
When you have a long, vague, inconsistent list of symptoms with no known mechanism capable of causing many, if any, of them then Occam’s Razor suggests that Havana Syndrome is probably not an actual thing. It’s almost certainly not the result of some secret super weapon.
“sounds pretty scary, but actually means that the symptoms are essentially caused by social contagion, under conditions of extreme stress, paranoia, and among members of an insular community”
Now do ‘Long Covid’.
Shucks… In Puerto Rico we use tree frogs to irritate CIA agents.
Regime media carrying deepstate water.
Aside from simple entertainment, one of the advantages of science fiction is to take an issue out of the current context so that the reader or viewer can consider it from outside the usual biases that we all have. The sine qua non of good science fiction is the “suspension of disbelief” factor that allows one to lower one’s defenses while enjoying the story line.
Watching the opening scene of 3 body depicting the cultural revolution, which I’m old enough to remember, actually reminded me of the Antifa/BLM/Free Palestine/Climate Crazies/ etc. Chinese youth murdered a few million in service to their elite leaders convinced that they were somehow revolutionaries. The same dynamic is playing out today and the global establishment has their “revolutionaries” ready to be mobilized for the same purpose.
Like I’ve pointed out before, Deng smacked down all those protestors in Tiananmen because he’d been on the receiving end of the consequences of indulging uppity college students just 20 years earlier.
The Three Body Problem is concerned with the cultural revolution, a very safe target for criticism these days in China. Indeed Liu’s books were lauded by Chinese society and received recognition and awards. “The Fat Years,” another SF novel, by Koonchung Chan is specifically about Tiananmen, which is still a taboo subject in China today. Chan’s book received only the worst kind of recognition by Chinese authorities, no awards, and remains banned.
http://library.lol/fiction/7CCEC9CCA1601F208C0D9C4F2E46BEF1
Be warned though, the author is more sympathetic to the victims of Tiananmen than you may be.
“The same dynamic is playing out today ”
What’s surprising is that your fear of mass youth revolts puts you on the same page as President Xi and the rest of China’s leadership. I always took for granted that American reactionaries would take a critical stand against the Chinese communists as a matter of course.
No one is afraid of your low T weirdos.
My high T weirdos are extremely frightening. How about yours?
This is why I painted my roof blue.
Probably turned the county purple.
Search: “60 Minutes, Our Reply” by Illinois Power.
The looter media did a smear attack on the utility building a nuclear power plant. So Illinois Power hedged by hiring a “hostile” camera crew to film the 60 Minutes creeps filming their documendacity. Access to Energy published the story and videotapes were mailed all over the country documenting the media fraud. No wonder they hate computer media and cellphone cameras!
Talk about burying the lede…Crickets can read and write!!!
“This noise was not produced by some kind of sonic weapon, however. It turned out to be crickets. Literal crickets.”
“This noise was not produced by some kind of sonic weapon, however. It turned out to be crickets. Literal crickets.”
The fact that some people recorded crickets doesn’t preclude the possibility that other people were attacked. (Or even that those people were being attacked.)
“This noise was not produced by some kind of sonic weapon, however. It turned out to be crickets. Literal crickets.”
If the author of this comment is interested in suffering potentially permanent health damage from the sound of “…crickets. Literal crickets”, that could easily be arranged.
She could simply place herself in a room, and have someone outside the room use a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) set up to a dangerous level, and using as the sound input to the LRAD an mp3 file of Asian long-tailed cricket:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyYs_B-LPkk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB6RuVBy444
In short, Robby Soave should have consulted with someone with some expertise in sonic weapons before relying on amateurs like Natalie Shure.
Be Skeptical of
That60 MinutesReport on Havana SyndromeThere. Now we can all get on with the rest of our lives.
Be skeptical of everything. There is absolutely no reason to be less skeptical of the intelligence community’s assessments than of this 60 Minutes episode.
In fact, to my knowledge, there has been absolutely no detailed response to the “60 Minutes” episode from anyone with expertise in the matter. (And even then, you should be skeptical of their response.)
‘The FBI’s analysis was that Havana syndrome is a “mass sociogenic illness,” which sounds pretty scary, but actually means that the symptoms are essentially caused by social contagion, under conditions of extreme stress, paranoia, and among members of an insular community. Writer Natalie Shure likened it to the “demonic fits” experienced by girls during the Salem witch trials.’
Like the COVID mass-hysteria and teenage girls who think they’re boys?
Also notice how it seems that most (?) of the “victims” of this are female, even though it’s a good bet that the field of anti-Russian agents is mostly male. Women are mosre susceptible to mass psychogenic illnesses. Like the teenage girls who can’t stop saying “beans”.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/nov/16/the-unknown-is-scary-why-young-women-on-social-media-are-developing-tourettes-like-tics
Years ago, in Moscow, there was a case where a U.S. diplomat’s residence was bombarded repeatedly with microwaves, and he experienced symptoms similar to this so-called Havana Syndrome. In that case, the microwaves were shown to be real. While they were never proven to be the source if this person’s symptoms, the possibility certainly wasn’t ruled out either. And microwaves are one explanation that has been considered for Havana Syndrome as well. I Don’t think we can confidently call this “sociogenic”. Maybe it is, but the sudden onset of many of these case, plus the simple fact that these are serious people with positions of responsibility that tho emotionally volatile would not be hired for in the first place, makes me skeptical of that explanation.
“I Don’t think we can confidently call this “sociogenic”. Maybe it is, but the sudden onset of many of these case, plus the simple fact that these are serious people with positions of responsibility that tho emotionally volatile would not be hired for in the first place, makes me skeptical of that explanation.”
It’s also not an “either/or” situation. There’s also the possibility of some people being attacked, and others suffering from sociogenic illness.