The Real Student Loan Crisis Isn't From Undergraduate Degrees
Misled by a bad law, graduate students are drowning in debt.
More than anything, Heather Lowe didn't want her children to grow up in poverty.
The 27-year-old had already had more interactions with social services than most ever will. As a child, she had been in and out of foster care and witnessed her parents' struggle with drug addiction. She had her first child at 19. She soon found herself bouncing between homeless shelters with her infant son. She even did a stint at a domestic violence shelter.
"I needed to do better for my kids. I needed to do better even for myself," she says. "A lot of people were very much like, 'All you'll ever be is a single parent. And you'll be an uneducated person for the rest of your life.'"
When her son was 2 years old, she went back to school, finishing several associate degrees and then completing a bachelor's in psychology from California Lutheran University. But even then she struggled to find work that paid enough.
"I got offered $15 an hour with a bachelor's and four associates," Lowe says. "So I was like, 'Well, I have to get my master's, and I'll be a therapist.'"
Lowe soon settled on entering a Master of Social Work (MSW) program. She scoured the internet for MSW programs, best MSW programs, affordable MSW programs.One school kept popping up: USC.
The University of Southern California's Suzanne Dworak-Peck School of Social Work is the largest social work school in the world. In 2016, university officials estimated that as many as 1 in 20 graduate-level social workers in the nation were educated there.
Soon Lowe found herself on the phone with a USC representative, who she says aggressively sold her on the school's MSW program.
"There was like a sense of belonging when they talked to you," Lowe recalls. "It was very much like, 'Don't even worry about the other programs. We know that we're the most affordable, and we know that we will give you the best education.'"
Lowe had been thinking about abandoning her plan to enroll in a master's program because of the hefty price tag, but USC wouldn't budge. "They kept calling me. And they kept telling me, 'Your story matters. You should work with kids that suffered the way you suffered.'"
Lowe says she was accepted to the program without even filling out a formal application. She enrolled in USC and graduated in 2023 with her master's degree—and over $90,000 in student loan debt.
The Crisis That Isn't
From Sens. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.) to Tommy Tuberville (R–Ala.), politicians across the political spectrum insist the cost of college plunges scores of bright young people into decades of crippling debt.
The real story is more complicated. It's true that yearly increases in college tuition have long outstripped inflation, rising more than 200 percent since 1980. But the conversation around student loan debt has become seriously miscalibrated: Not only do small, expensive, elite universities command the conversation about tuition costs, but there's a misplaced focus on undergraduate degree programs.
Even after decades of tuition hikes, it is still a good time to be a motivated first-time undergraduate student. The average public university tuition bill is less than $10,000 per year, and the most selective universities tend to offer extremely generous financial aid. Despite tuition increases, most undergraduates don't pay full price. In 2020, around half of students at four-year public colleges received federal grants and about half received institutional grants. At private nonprofit colleges, 84 percent received institutional grants; only about 40 percent received federal student loans. The Association of Public and Land-Grant Universities, a membership association of public research universities, estimates that at four-year public colleges, 78 percent of undergraduate students graduate with less than $30,000 in debt and 42 percent graduate with no debt at all.
Over half of federal student loan borrowers owe less than $20,000, but the political narrative doesn't reflect this. One popular proposal would entail forgiving $50,000 of federal debt per borrower—a plan framed as necessary to help the typical struggling young person.
When students do take on undergraduate debt, it's usually a worthwhile investment when compared to never getting a college degree. Lifetime earnings for typical college graduates are far higher than for those with only high school degrees.
There are real problems with America's student loan system. But they mostly involve people who take on debt to pay for expensive graduate degrees.
Those problems are rooted in a little-known 2005 law that eliminated a cap on the amount of federal student loan debt that graduate students were allowed to take on. In the following decade and a half, the amount students borrowed for graduate school climbed.
Students weren't just borrowing to pay for high-quality graduate programs. Some of the graduate programs that saw students take on the largest debt burdens were those that provided the least value in terms of quality instruction or earnings.
Graduate students, in other words, weren't just taking on more debt. They were taking on more debt for less lucrative degrees, offered by programs eager to absorb federal loan dollars. Even as undergraduate degrees largely held their value, a bevy of newly subsidized graduate degrees have lured students into expensive programs of dubious quality.
A Boon for 'Expensive but Questionable' Degrees
This rapid rise in debt began after the 2005 Higher Education Reconciliation Act introduced a new offering called Graduate PLUS loans.
Following the 1992 Higher Education Amendments, most individuals could borrow no more than $18,500 a year from the federal government to pay for a graduate degree. Now, graduate students could borrow up to the total cost of attendance for their program, including living expenses.
Unsurprisingly, graduate student borrowing skyrocketed. While the inflation-adjusted amount owed by graduate borrowers rose just 7.8 percent from the 1999–2000 school year to the 2003–2004 school year (Education Department data are not available for every academic year), it rose 27 percent from 2007–2008 to 2011–2012.
Some of this rise can surely be attributed to increases in borrowing for living expenses. But graduate programs also hiked costs after the introduction of the Graduate PLUS program.
From the 2004–2005 school year to the 2014–2015 school year, average tuition and fees increased roughly the same when comparing all undergraduate and graduate programs. But that doesn't account for the inflation of undergraduate sticker prices—while schools began listing higher tuition and fees, they often offset this cost with increased scholarships and need-based financial aid. From the 2009–2010 school year (data isn't available for earlier years) to the 2020–2021 school year, inflation-adjusted net prices at American four-year colleges actually decreased slightly.
In contrast, most schools don't offer much financial aid to graduate students, outside of funded Ph.D. programs. Also, Pell Grants are generally not available to graduate students, leaving student loans as the main option to pay for school.
Universities across America have increased their graduate enrollment to capture more of this federal funding. From the 2006–2007 academic year to the 2021–2022 academic year, the number of master's degrees conferred has increased by over 50 percent.
While there are big financial benefits to obtaining a bachelor's degree, the benefits of getting a master's degree are much smaller—and are inconsistent across disciplines.
"The federal government allows graduate students to borrow unlimited amounts while imposing few controls on the quality of the programs financed. The result has been a proliferation of expensive but questionable graduate programs," wrote researchers Jason Delisle and Preston Cooper in a 2021 National Affairs article, adding that ample loan forgiveness programs, like income-driven repayment and Public Service Loan Forgiveness, "remove any market discipline that might normally correct this problem."
According to a 2023 working paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research, authored by economists from Columbia University, Vanderbilt University, and Brigham Young University, the 2007–2010 academic years following the introduction of Graduate PLUS loans saw graduate school net prices increase an average of 64 cents per $1 of increased student borrowing when compared to the 2002–2006 academic years.
This increased loan availability didn't lead to better outcomes: Graduation rates didn't improve after the advent of the program.
Meanwhile, the inflation-adjusted cap on aggregate borrowing for dependent undergraduates has actually declined slightly since 2006. While undergraduate students can (and often do) obtain private loans, or have their parents take on unsubsidized federal loans through the unlimited Parent PLUS program, this cap has kept net undergraduate prices from spiraling out of control the way they have for many graduate programs.
Increases in the availability of student loans are not the only factor causing rising tuition for both graduate and undergraduate degrees. Government spending on financial aid programs (such as Pell Grants) and increased collegiate spending on administrative roles have no doubt played a role. So, too, has the aforementioned trend toward increasing sticker prices while providing students more with aid and scholarships, which has distorted the popular conception of how much undergraduate degrees actually cost. But while multiple factors contribute to tuition increases, there's little doubt that the introduction of Graduate PLUS loans created an incentive for students to borrow more and for schools to hike prices.
Before the program's introduction, "if you wanted to go to graduate school, you'd have to either pay out of pocket, find an inexpensive graduate program, or you'd have to go to a bank," says Adam Looney, an economist at the Brookings Institution and the University of Utah. "So grad students didn't borrow very much. Today it's just enormous amounts."
'That's What I Was Making as a Manager at Yogurtland'
From 2006 to 2021, USC increased tuition for its social work program from around $35,000 for the first year to almost $60,000. Even adjusting for inflation, it was an increase of over 25 percent.
In 2010, the program introduced an online option, which sparked a huge increase in enrollment. Six years after the program was introduced, MSW enrollment had nearly quadrupled, rising from around 900 in 2010 to 3,500 in 2016.
While online students pay just as much as their in-person counterparts, a recently filed class-action lawsuit argues that the two programs have major differences. The suit claims that USC employs an entirely different cohort of faculty to teach online MSW classes and that online students receive a substantial portion of instruction in the form of prerecorded lectures. The school also outsourced academic support staffing to 2U, a Maryland-based education tech company—the same company responsible for the online program's aggressive recruiters.
Lowe was one of those online students. Just a 40-minute drive from the university, she earned her degree sitting behind a screen in her public housing apartment, trying to pay attention while pregnant with her second child and taking care of her son and her teenage brother.
Lowe says USC administrators pressured her into enrolling in the online program. "I should have done it in person," Lowe says. "But they're like, 'Nope, online is just as good. So why travel? And why waste the gas?'"
Once she logged on, Lowe became concerned she wasn't receiving an adequate education. She says her teachers showed students decades-old videos and often didn't know how to operate the platform used to conduct online classes, leading to frequent delays.
After being assured she'd be eligible for a bevy of scholarships, Lowe quickly realized it would be nearly impossible for her to secure enough funding to avoid tremendous debt.
As the financial burden of her education became clear, she considered dropping out. But when USC administrators told her she might have to start her degree from scratch at the other schools she was considering, she ultimately decided to pull through and complete the program, taking out over $90,000 in student loans through the Graduate PLUS program.
After briefly struggling to find a job after graduation, Lowe eventually landed a position as a public school social worker. She's making just $25 an hour. "That's what I was making as a manager at Yogurtland," she says.
'It's Not Really a Loan Anymore'
This unsung crisis is about to get much worse.
In August 2022, the White House announced the federal government would forgive up to $20,000 in federal student loan debt per borrower—a whopping sum estimated to cost over $500 billion over the next decade. From the start, the proposal seemed doomed to fail. It was based on a dubious reading of the HEROES Act, a 9/11-era law designed to let the government halt or forgive student loan payments during wartime or another "national emergency." President Joe Biden insisted the COVID-19 pandemic qualified, an argument he undercut just days later by announcing the pandemic was "over." The measure was quickly halted in federal court, and the Supreme Court eventually struck it down in a 6–3 decision.
But that ruling didn't affect a policy that may end up causing more long-term damage than any one-time loan forgiveness.
The income-driven repayment (IDR) plan is one of the most popular ways borrowers try to lower the financial burden of their loans. While there have been several IDR plans, the most popular, the REPAYE plan, requires borrowers to make monthly payments over a set period of time—typically 20 years—with payment fixed to a set percentage of the borrower's discretionary income.
At the same time Biden announced his loan forgiveness scheme, he announced sweeping changes to IDR rules. The REPAYE plan would be replaced by a new plan, called SAVE. This new plan is much more generous than the old IDR.
The REPAYE plan required borrowers to make monthly payments of 10 percent of their discretionary income (calculated as earnings above 150 percent of the federal poverty line) for 20 years for undergraduate students, 25 years for graduate borrowers. Under the SAVE plan, borrowers have to pay only 5 percent of their discretionary income (now considered earnings above 225 percent of the federal poverty line) and have to make payments for only 10 years for balances less than $12,000. Incomplete or late payments count toward the required payment period, and the government will pay for interest if a borrower's monthly payments are too low to cover it.
This revised system is estimated to cost $475 billion over the next decade—nearly as much as the $519 billion predicted price tag of one-time forgiveness alone. Plus, the SAVE plan could very well be the status quo for much longer than a single decade.
"The system has gotten so generous that it's not really a loan anymore," says Preston Cooper, a senior fellow at The Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity. "It's more like a grant. And I think at that point, you'll start to see colleges saying, 'Hey, students aren't going to have to pay back their loans in full. So why don't we raise our prices, have students take out more loans, and the loans will just get forgiven by taxpayers?'"
The Way Forward
The federal student loan system does not have to be so dysfunctional—or so big. In the wake of Biden's failed student loan forgiveness proposal, there have been some efforts to prune back the program.
In June, Senate Republicans unveiled a package of five bills that aimed to reshape student loan policy. The first three are unremarkable reforms aimed at mandating more transparency from the government and universities—requiring that prospective borrowers are informed how much they can expect to pay per month toward their student loans and how much they are likely to make upon graduation from a specific program.
But the fourth and fifth bills would enact major changes to the student borrowing regime. The fourth bill would eliminate most repayment options, leaving a standard 10-year repayment plan and creating an IDR plan that resembles the old REPAYE plan. The fifth bill would eliminate the Graduate PLUS loan program entirely. Graduate students could still access federal student loans, but they'd have a cap of $20,500 in unsubsidized loans per year.
The fourth bill would also cut off loans to programs that don't leave students better off. Bachelor's and associate degree programs whose graduates earn less than the median high school graduate, and graduate programs whose graduates earn less than the median bachelor's degree holder, wouldn't be eligible for federal student loans.
House Republicans also unveiled their own bill, which would make the terms of IDR plans much less generous and provide "targeted" debt relief for some borrowers.
It's unlikely that either the Senate or House plan will have the votes to pass, let alone to survive a Biden veto. In 2022, over half of Democratic voters were college-educated. Democratic politicians understand that promising a significant portion of their base a massive financial windfall gets votes, even if that windfall would essentially entail a wealth transfer from a lower-income group to a richer one.
Many people wind up in a bad situation after getting a degree they didn't need at a school they shouldn't have picked and couldn't afford. They may deserve sympathy, but allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcy is a fairer policy than consequences-free debt forgiveness.
Even some borrowers themselves recognize this. A 2023 survey found that 17 percent of respondents with student loans opposed Biden's original loan forgiveness plan, and 43 percent were opposed to forgiving all student loan debt.
'We Want To Enroll as Many Students as Possible'
It's easy to look at these incentives to get expensive, borderline-useless graduate degrees and conclude that our entire higher education system is irrevocably broken, but it's surprisingly easy to finance an undergraduate education.
For the 2021–2022 school year, the average tuition and fees at a public, four-year institution was just $9,596. The cost can be brought down even further with two years at a local community college, which averages just over $3,500 per year.
This investment tends to pay off. In 2021, the median earnings of someone with an undergraduate degree were 55 percent higher than the median earnings of those who only graduated high school. Over the course of his lifetime, a man with a bachelor's degree can expect to earn $900,000 more than a man with only a high school education; women can expect to earn $630,000 more than their uncredentialed counterparts.
Thus, getting a degree is a great idea. But there's a catch.
Those with some college education and no degree don't experience a salary bump. In fact, their earnings are virtually identical to those with just a high school diploma. The difference is that college dropouts also have college debt—on average, about $14,000.
The lesson is simple: You should go to college, but only if you are fairly certain that you have the academic chops to finish.
Unfortunately, huge numbers of students don't follow this advice. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the average six-year graduation rate at American colleges was just 64 percent in 2020, meaning that 36 percent of students took even longer to finish school or didn't graduate at all. This shouldn't be surprising. In 2021, 75 percent of high school students who took the ACT exam scored so low they failed to meet minimal college readiness benchmarks in English, math, reading, and science. But in 2021, 43 percent of high school seniors immediately enrolled in a four-year college upon graduation.
Most colleges in America accept the majority of their applicants—including those whose academic profiles indicate a high likelihood of dropping out. According to a Pew Research Center analysis of over 1,300 colleges and universities, 53 percent accepted more than two-thirds of applicants.
Universities' "incentive is to say, 'Hey, the federal government is offering all of this federal student loan and grant funding. We want to enroll as many students as possible, even if we know that they're not in a position to finish college,'" Cooper says. "'And if they drop out, you know, we're no worse off because we face no financial consequences if we fail students.'"
Despite the flaws of the undergraduate status quo, earning a bachelor's degree remains the wisest choice for motivated students—even with the debt that frequently follows. The same can't be said for many graduate degree programs.
'It's Not Worth $97,000 To Look At'
In 2021, USC quietly overhauled its MSW program.
For years, the school's online component had been a financial liability. Despite the high tuition, USC had entered a contract forfeiting 60 percent of tuition dollars for the online program to 2U. Getting high enough enrollment to make the program profitable required USC to lower its admissions standards, a move that tarnished the once-prestigious program's reputation. The school said it would improve its standards for prospective students and reduce the number of credits required to graduate, effectively cutting tuition by 25 percent.
Lowe had finished a year of the program when the changes were introduced. While she was able to graduate with reduced credit requirements, lowering her costs in her second year, she also felt that taking fewer classes further widened her educational gaps. Even with the reduced costs, the program was still incredibly expensive—and still left Lowe and many other graduates feeling cheated out of an education.
"It's good to look at," Lowe says of her degree. "But it's not worth $97,000 to look at."
If the government had not subsidized virtually unrestrained graduate borrowing, it's unlikely USC would have been able to justify such an expensive program in the first place. At the very least, students unable to pay out of pocket would have had a strong incentive to look elsewhere.
An online social work degree from USC simply isn't worth what the university was charging. Even with the Graduate PLUS program in place, USC finally felt compelled to lower its prices—after the threat of financial and reputational ruin became too much to bear.
But USC's social work school is just one program at one university. Hundreds more graduate programs are still taking virtually bottomless government funding while providing little utility for the students who borrow to attend them.
"I wish I wasn't so eager," Lowe says. "I feel like if they gave me my money back, I'd be OK with giving them back my degree."
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The Real Student Loan Crisis."
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Why didn’t she just learn to code?
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I saw an immediate Blah Blah Blah sob story meant to fix the narrative. She was an adult who took on the debt so she should pay it back. I’m pretty damn sure I should not have to pay for it.
Or take a job coding without learning. It’s clear that this is possible, because Reason’s coders don’t know how to code. This article is unreadable because it includes an AP window that covers most of the screen and can’t be closed.
That’s been fixed today. OTOH, there are still ads that cover the bottom 1/3 of the screen, and are wider than the screen AND CENTERED SO THE “X” TO CLOSE THE WINDOW IS OFF THE SCREEN. I’m continually shrinking the text until I can close such windows, then expanding it back to be readable. There are also the popup’s on each side, obscuring the beginnings and endings of lines, that have a hidden “x” box – you have to guess where it is and hover the mouse there until the box appears so you can click it.
If Reason’s website isn’t coded by idiots, it’s coded by someone following the directions of a manager that hates the readers.
I borrowed $7500 to get a BSME degree. Paid it back in less than 2 years.
Spent a lot of it on bikes.
No sympathy for these fools.
Did you get fancy frames and groupsets?
I served in the Army and got the College Fund. Worked two jobs while in school and summers on a golf course and cement work while my partying friends toured Europe and the Caribbean. Graduated with $8,000 in debt and a degree in Biology. Paid it off the first year out. Cry me a friggin river for these beaten down souls and their endless debt.
Lowe soon settled on entering a Master of Social Work (MSW) program. She scoured the internet for MSW programs, best MSW programs, affordable MSW programs.One school kept popping up: USC.
At no point did she google the average income for social work?
Sounds like she isn’t the smartest grad school student.
Following the 1992 Higher Education Amendments, most individuals could borrow no more than $18,500 a year from the federal government to pay for a graduate degree. Now, graduate students could borrow up to the total cost of attendance for their program, including living expenses.
So people with college degrees were “tricked” into taking these loans to pay for non educational expenses? I had less work in grad school than I did undergrad due to less required gen ed. The number of credits was 1/3rd of the undergrad. I was able to work while in grad school full time.
Maybe these students are just dumb?
I typically worked 24-30 hours per week during my entire 5-year undergraduate degree program, with a full load of credit hours each semester, in a STEM field that required a lot of work outside of normal class time. The only time I couldn’t was during study abroad (not that I would have wanted to while studying abroad).
I played a sport and still worked while doing undergrad averaging over 20 units a week. Did have a full academic scholarship so work was 10 to 20 hours for just spending money.
In grad school I was working 40 to 60 hours for engineering firm and found grad school over all easier than undergrad.
What I found in grad school, when I bothered showing up on non test days, was those living on college loans were some of the laziest students there were. Most of them didn’t get a job post undergrad so just used grad school to figure out what to do off of loan money.
It’s not a trick- you cannot work an outside job in med school, most won’t allow it.
My daughter graduated vet school nearly $400k in debt. I’d hate to be a washout in those programs
Maybe these students are just dumb?
Some are. Many of today’s college students are not intellectually qualified to be there.
People don’t do social work for the money. They do it for the power.
I’m not wholly convinced. I think some of them do it because it doesn’t require any competence.
Yeah:
the cost of college plunges scores of bright young people into decades of crippling debt
Leela: Dolphin! But Dolphins are intelligent!
Bender: Not this one, he took out $100K in student loans for his degree in Feminist Underwater Basket Weaving.
I was a bright young person who borrowed a lot of money to go to college. I paid it off in 5 years. I don’t think it would have been possible to stay in debt for decades, the loan was due in 10 years.
So after getting an “affordable” PHd in psychology, you’re now qualified to molly-coddle the misbehaving students in middle school or high school with “there-there now” style psychobabble… Or maybe you can now be LICENSED to change diapers at the childcare, if you specialized in child development.
The over-paid-to-the-point-of-being-parasitical upper levels of educrats (especially in the “soft sciences”), and student loans, are all obviously in serious need of reform, as they have been for years now.
What STILL doesn’t get enough attention is degreeism and licensing!!! This lady has a PHd (or some such) now, and is STILL not qualified to authorize me to blow on a cheap plastic flute! She has to get highly edumacated in DOCTOROLOGY OF MEDICAL DOCTOROLOGISMS before she can do THAT!
To find precise details on what NOT to do, to avoid the flute police, please see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/DONT_DO_THIS/ … This has been a pubic service, courtesy of the Church of SQRLS!
These rants with the all caps are neither funny, nor witty, nor interesting. They’re just garbage.
I’m glad to hear that you LOVE to beg permission from doctors for trivial things like being able to buy and use a cheap plastic flute! And then fight against people who love freedom FAR more than you do! Twat, are you a parasitical license-and-degrees-loving, rent-seeking “professional” of some sort or another?
All I see are gray boxes
Shit must feel VERY comfortable to be able to refute ALL things written by people who DARE to disagree with you, by NOT reading what they wrote! And then to BRAG about shit! Ass if deliberate ignorance is something to be PROUD of!
For me, they’re just impotent little gray boxes from something that should be put down like a rabid animal.
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^nuts
I’m glad to hear that you LOVE to beg permission from doctors for trivial things like being able to buy and use a cheap plastic flute! And then fight against people who love freedom FAR more than you do! Twat, are you a parasitical license-and-degrees-loving, rent-seeking “professional” of some sort or another?
Move to North Korea, please, where they LOVE you individual-freedoms-hating kinds of people!
Wow. I haven’t been on this site for years, maybe a decade, and you’re still complaining about those cheap plastic flutes. Maybe you should give it a break and relax. Do you know any breathing exercises?
I do NOT like being a slave to the Nanny State! No retreat, no surrender!
PS, the USA is the ONLY nation in the world to require prescriptions for these! Land of the free, home of the brave, my ass!!!
you’re still complaining about those cheap plastic flutes
He’s circled back? That’s some of his best work.
Summary ……………. Socialism DOES NOT work.
Course this has been acknowledged over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over AGAIN.
So many times repeatably predictable that it should pass as a downright law of nature / fact.
So why does humanity keep entertaining it? Criminal intentions. Pretending that using ‘Guns’ (Gov-Guns) to get what they want at others expense isn’t a crime. Manipulation, Schemes, Deflection, Complications and a whole criminals tool-box of trying to turn Justice on it’s head for their criminal intentions.
If you *WANT* it *EARN* it. Justice really is that simple.
And ensuring Individual Liberty and Justice for all *is* that simple.
Socialism works, the only thing is Noone has ever tried “real” socialism
Come on! Socialism works great for the inner party. As long as they can stall the next revolution.
Someone just read the NYCHA arrests. Socialism/labor unions are always a hierarchical mafia state, where the hardest workers prop up the laziest and corrupt. Bureaucracy gets their palms greased.
https://nypost.com/2024/02/06/metro/dozens-of-city-housing-employees-arrested-sources/
Socialism gets ya 1.7 million dollar toilets in the city by the bay and 50 billion dollar trains to nowhere.
This rapid rise in debt began after the 2005 Higher Education Reconciliation Act introduced a new offering called Graduate PLUS loans.
There was a Republican president, so the blame for this goes to Congress. Oh wait, Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate, so it couldn’t have been their fault. Shit, who’s to blame?
Even broken in this article.
Anyone who does NOT blame the Demon-Craps for EVERYTHING bad, is… BROKEN!
This MUST be true, ’cause JesseBahnFarter-Fuhrer SAID so!
Anyone who blames Republicans or credits Democrats is broken.
Anyone who only blames Republicans (and never blames Democrats) is broken. And has no valid claim as a Libertarian.
Have you ever given credit to a Democrat for anything?
Have you ever blamed Republicans for anything bad?
^Self-Projection entry #215872857230543.
Biden sucks. I can’t think of a single thing he has done that I’ll give him credit for. Ok, one. He finished getting troops out of Afghanistan, but did a terrible job.
Trump sucks. But I’ll give him credit for attempting to cut regulation and for not starting any new wars.
No, I’m not projecting. I’m calling a spade a spade.
And yet, you feel compelled to comment on Trump on every single article, even if it doesn’t have anything to do with Trump. You don’t jump into unrelated article comments sections to shit post on Biden. This is why many here call you a Democrat and not the “one true libertarian.”
I do believe that was the most enlightening thing you’ve ever said.
I have. Some republicans and democrats (of course) interference in a deal from a major ally in Asia (Japan) purchase of a steel mill in the U.S. is the equivalent of strong arming the seller into accepting a much lower or ridiculous offer, or price fixing. But- – it’s an election year!
Bush was a spend-happy fuckwit.
Hastert was no better.
Well, better than Obama and Biden, but still not good.
The roots and ideology *IS* all Demon-Craps fault.
See the FDR with Democrat-Trifecta “New Deal” for most of it.
Never-mind they just keep pushing for [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] to the day.
And notice how practically every Republican despises GWB.
And notice how it was by unanimous consent.
And notice how while you blame Republicans for not stopping Democrats Cares Act you don’t blame Democrats for not stopping this Act. (i.e. Everyone can see your partisan hypocrisy)
Pitched by Susan Collins one of the 7 that wanted Trump impeached.
Of all the Stupid sh*t Republicans have done and do Democrats just flat out fully (unanimously) support stupid sh*t 24/7.
One of my close friends runs a substance abuse counseling clinic with four sites. So I have a pretty good idea of what having an MSW can earn you, even in New Mexico. $90k of debt sucks, but if she exercises any discipline about it, she can get a job and pay it off relatively easily.
But why would she, when the feds might give her a magic cookie?
she earned her degree sitting behind a screen in her public housing apartment, trying to pay attention while pregnant with her second child and taking care of her son and her teenage brother
Ok, self-discipline may not be her strong suit.
I do like her “trade the degree back to the university in exchange for the money back” idea though. If these universities were handing out useless degrees, why should the taxpayers be responsible for the loss? The feds should require repayment of the loans from the schools.
But taxpayers, aka “rich people”, should pay for everything. And still be shamed. Because fairness.
Yeah, I was thinking that she clearly had a poor relationship with her father when I read all that.
That would be a terrible idea. Every university would be shut down – no-one’s going to sell a service if people are able to not pay for it.
It would be like hiring someone to build a house, but then you don’t like the house so you expect them to tear it down and give you a refund.
Social work, like many types of jobs can earn a wide range of money, depending on where you land. But in the social work game, sometimes the higher earning positions simply aren’t for everyone.
My ex-wife was an MSW and she started at the bottom of the game like so many do, earning a relatively modest salary, working at an agency talking to at-risk youth, troubled families etc., she was basically a case-worker for impoverished, troubled families and individuals. This work is neither glamorous, nor well paid.
But then she eventually got into clinical social work and pivoted to an ER. This is where the “not for everyone” moniker comes into play.
This was a very intense, high stress job. There was a lot of negotiation with hospital staff, knowledge of law, negotiating with CDMHPs (County Designated Mental Health Professionals) who were the ones who had the power to legally commit people against their will etc. It was a very high stress job, but a job whose slate was wiped clean after every shift. And the pay was pretty good. She eventually got to the place where she was making very good money, and became a supervisor for the entire team. Ultimately, the hospital wanted her in upper management and she tried it for a while and then gave it up.
Last time I talked to her, she had taken a new job working for a Hospital as an in-house employee therapist doing one-on-one counseling sessions. She took a $40k a year pay cut for that job, but now she’s happy.
“When students do take on undergraduate debt, it’s usually a worthwhile investment”
Your opening anecdote literally disproved that. Most undergrad degrees are compleatly useless, universities should be held accountable for selling a sham product, and the students should be looked at as the village idiots for buying into it. If you have a degree in psychology $15/h is more than you are probably worth.
Colleges should issue endowment backed loans. Feds shouldn’t be involved at all.
As long as they minor in barista, their degree might be worthwhile. At least until the DNC pays more than minimum wage for protest marches.
Progressives completely got the GI Bill wrong ever since it passed.
Giving people who WANT to go to college and half the discipline to not waste time incessantly or pursue useless degrees is a good investment.
Investing in useless layabouts with ridiculous degrees ain’t.
My sister got her BA in Social Work. She hated the job and went back for a Masters to be a school teacher. She’d still be paying off those loans if she wasn’t the youngest sibling and daddy’s little angel.
My son, while working on his BS in metallurgy is teaching underprivileged aboriginals part time and making around 15 bucks an hour. All because he is better at teaching math than any professional teacher.
So I’m supposed to feel sorry for people too stupid to find a loan repayment calculator on the internet and look up the types of jobs they’re targeting for pay and availability? That’s not a law’s fault, maybe the entire education system K-BS, but also the borrower.
Yup. And also pay for their mistakes.
I got an undergrad degree in Mathematics working 40hrs a week and a small student loan that I paid off in about 7-8 yrs. Zero sympathy for these fools when they don’t stack up their prospective salaries with the amount they intend to borrow. Though, I’m told that as a Boomer it was easy for me to do?
The post WWII generation had a boisterous economy to work in. There was a qualified labor shortage. Today kids bitch that the economy is bad and there is too much competition. Mind you they don’t mention the degrees they have are in liberal arts because chemistry and math are hard. So I think it’s mostly bullshit.
It was easy.
It also wasn’t, you get out of education what you put into it and working full time and getting a degree takes a lot of effort.
But college costs have risen at roughly triple the pace of inflation since your days. Likewise, instead of 10% of the population going to college it’s more like 30%. So both the initial cost and the perceived value of the degree are very different than in your day.
This shit’s not binary. Thus the “OK Boomer” and rolling of eyes with the “I paid for school as a frozen yogurt deliveryman” stories.
It’s become much more difficult to get through college without massive borrowing. The government made more money available, and the colleges found ways to spend it. Administrative positions have multiplied, with the non-teaching payroll often exceeding the teaching payroll. The administrators have large offices filled with expensive furniture, while the adjuncts that really teach most of the classes (theoretically under the supervision of a professor) get to share a desk in a cubicle or a closet. The dormitories and dining halls look like 4-star hotels and restaurants. (I remember the 1970’s and early 1980’s when there wasn’t much difference between a typical college dorm and the barracks at Cannon Air Force Base.)
So tuition is at least double – _after_ inflation – to cover all those administrators and their fancy offices, and other required fees have multiplied. Often in spite of all the grants and loans, the student’s parents are on the hook for just as much as before, but the student is _also_ left with large debts.
A failure to plan on your part does not constitute a crisis on mine.
My son is borrowing more than most of the numbers I’ve seen others mention in the comments, he will likely be in that 120K range when he graduates. However, he is getting a degree in metallurgical engineering and a minor in mathematics. He already has had paid summer internships that pay upwards of $25 an hour without having finished the degree.
He is debating selling his soul to one of the evil Military Industrial Complex of companies so he can pay the loans off fast and make enough to support his expensive Warhammer 40K habit.
I would caution against him working for a government contractor. Many companies in the dreaded private sector will absolutely not hire anyone who is tainted with government related work under the assumption that they have no work ethic. So once he starts down that path he’s committed to it.
“Many companies in the dreaded private sector will absolutely not hire anyone who is tainted with government”
What planet do you live on?
The one where people I know who hire people tell me what I just said.
Which companies?
Woketopia?
Seriously? The grey box said that? Wow. The only person I know of whose time as a government contractor led to not being able to use his skills in the private sector is a whistle blower who went up against the No Such Agency. They aren’t giving him a glowing reference.
Oh Christ. Warhammer. The poor boy would be better off with a coke habit.
You’re not wrong. He’s got… let me think… Tyranids, Plague Marines, Space Marines of at least three chapters, Grey Knights and Ad Mech. I think that’s all of them. I’ve only got Orks and Imperial Guard so I don’t have a problem… much…
Like he says, he needs that sweet sweet M-I Complex money to pay for his habit.
Oh, I forgot. He’s dipping a toe into the same army that Henry Caville has. Can’t recall the name.
Loans aren’t some mysterious concept with unpredictable consequences. These people should have known what repayment meant.
Furthermore, under income based repayment, they’ll be paying less per month than they do for their cell phone, and their repayments are capped at like $20000.
The only people who got ripped off are the tax payers, not the borrowers.
The math (BSEE vs MSEE)
Avg pay for BSEE $90K
Avg pay for MSEE $106K
Difference $16K/yr
Cost of MSEE (attending full time)
Two years tuition/fees (public, TX) $33K
Two years lost BSEE salary: $180K
(No one buys books anymore)
Total: $213K
Payback time: $213K/$16K = 13 years
Life is too uncertain to take a 13 year payback time, so the bottom line is do it because you like the more interesting work you’ll get assigned, not for the money.
On the other hand, the MSEE is an *outstanding* investment if you get your employer to pay for it, and do it at night while working.
^THIS^
“get your employer to pay for it” — Where education should have been funded from the very beginning. Not by Gov-Gun poking but by the demand chain requiring it.
Having markets run on a supply and demand system is practically as solidified as basic math (i.e 1+1=2). If people cheated on their taxes as much as US gov-‘guns’ cheats the people’s labor market practically the entire government would be in prison.
RE Heather Lowe: The purpose of some people’s lives is to serve as a warning to others.
Get the federal government out of education.
Period.
Too late. It’s gotta burn to the ground before it can be rebuilt.
You know, I’ve borrowed large sums of money a few times (college, a couple of houses), but I’ve always paid it back. I’m not shedding any tears for people who borrowed money they promised to pay back, who then want to blame others for their predicament or ask the taxpayers to pay it off for them.
Many of them are effectively victims of fraud.
“Lowe had been thinking about abandoning her plan to enroll in a master’s program because of the hefty price tag, but USC wouldn’t budge.”
USC wouldn’t budge? It is portrayed as if she were kidnapped, and forced to accept the loan.
Gotta accept some personal agency in this lady. Even if that is not what social work trains its acolytes to believe.
Some, yes, but there is plenty of blame to go around for the schools.
Then they need to file a fraud claim. Oh yeah; That’s right. The left is so stupid they used their “halls of justice” to commit fraud and now they have no “halls of justice” left.
There are real problems with America’s student loan system. But they mostly involve people who take on debt to pay for expensive graduate degrees.
Or, like this woman, choose degree programs not in demand. One of the biggest failures we make, including in this article, is not distinguishing between productive majors and busywork majors. Engineering, hard sciences, and some business degrees (computer science, accounting) and a few others lead to careers with elevated earning for those able to achieve within them. Most other degrees are effectively useless and serve only to earn a lottery ticket at entering the bureaucracy or tenured faculty.
We do this, as usual, because we’re trying hard to not recognize the difference between those who can perform at an elevated level and those who cannot. Since those who cannot will never perform will enough to pass multivariant calc those higher majors are not an option for them. So we have to create the BS because we’re incapable of tell mediocrities they aren’t smart enough to benefit from a college degree.
No, it’s not the extremists who are unraveling the social fabric and causing the public’s faith in traditional institutions to plummet! It’s the traditional institutions who are undermining their own reputation with the public. When everyone in America is confronted at every turn by official lies and the lying liars who lie to them it’s not hard to understand why we no longer trust anyone. The system has been rigged so thoroughly by the insiders that people outside the system have almost no influence whatsoever on it. Someday they may realize what we have to do to regain control of our country again – and it won’t be pretty!
The federal student loan system does not have to be so dysfunctional—or so big
It shouldn’t exist at all.
Neither education nor its funding, directly or indirectly via student loans or grants, is found in the list of enumerated powers in Article I Section 8 of The Constitution of the United States.
The Progressive Savior and Magical Negro made it federal taking over almost all of the student loans making it America’s problem.
She had her first child at 19. She soon found herself bouncing between homeless shelters with her infant son. She even did a stint at a domestic violence shelter.
Gonna say what we’re not supposed to say.
This is a person who makes bad decisions. As a general rule (not universal, but close enough) young single mothers make bad decisions. Not victim blaming for domestic violence, but it sounds like she continued to make bad decisions. The whole “Her first child” statement seems to intimate that she has more than one. More bad decisions.
We shouldn’t be encouraging bad decision making. I mean, i don’t give a shit if she makes all the bad decisions possible in life, but providing her with 90 grand so she can give it to a university and become an indentured servant doesn’t seem like a thing the government should do.
TL:DR — if you want to hang yourself, go buy your own fucking rope.
Exactly right. Sad but a lot of poor choices along the way with no one to tell her to stop and get a grip. Just keep her down the wrong path with affirmative “you go, girl” pep talks to end up where she is.
Simple rule of thumb: unless you are in med school, dental school, or some law schools, and are not being paid to be a grad student, you are in the wrong field. And an idiot.
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I have two daughters with advanced degrees. One is an Emergency room physician the other is a teacher with two masters degrees. The teacher will max out at 170,000 dollars a year . Over a thousand people applied for the position. Obviously for both it payed off . We started visiting colleges when they were in their junior year . At every orientation the school would extol the virtues of studying abroad. We would joke about how colleges reminded us of a cruise ship . Dining entertainment workout facilities etc . We laid down ground rules from the start . Pick a field of study buckle don’t and get out as fast as you can . We also added whatever they pick it can’t be a profession that can’t be done remotely. They had friends who majored in musical theatre gender studies communications etc . After graduation almost all of them are struggling to pay off their loans . Most of them aren’t even working in their fields of study. What we never could understand is how the parents would sign off on that ? And how do the schools get off the hook by encouraging foreign travel and majors that couldn’t generate enough income to live . We also seen students who attended a expensive private college the first year only to find out they couldn’t get a loan for the second. This is the fault of parents the government and most of all the colleges and universities. The whole system needs to be revamped and the students caught up in this mess should have a portion of their debt forgiven.
Instead of the federal government, make the Schools that the students enroll on as the guarantors on the debt. Require that the debt be paid in 10 years, if not by the student, then the school. Pass a law that the students currently holding debt can sue the schools for misrepresentation of their programs and its earning potential. You will see this problem be resolved very quickly
Society needs people with the expertise that comes with graduate school. So either help people afford graduate school, or we become ok with grad school being solely for the rich.
Experience is earned while working, not while learning.
It is both. You can’t be a doctor, or a physicist, or a therapist, or many other professions without the academic knowledge.
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