Who Decides Whether Trump Can Run, and What Sort of Evidence Suffices?
Letting state officials determine whether a candidate has "engaged in insurrection" opens a huge can of worms.

On Thursday, Maine joined Colorado in concluding that Donald Trump is disqualified from running for president because he "engaged in insurrection" by inciting the January 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol. Both of those decisions raise the question of what counts as an "insurrection" under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment and what it means to "engage in" one. The conjunction of Trump's ballot exclusion in Maine, which is based on a decision by the state's top election official, with his disqualification in Colorado, which is based on a ruling by that state's Supreme Court, highlights two more issues: Who decides whether a candidate is covered by Section 3, and what standard of proof should apply?
Section 3, which originally was aimed at preventing former Confederates from returning to public office after the Civil War, says "no person shall…hold any office, civil or military, under the United States…who, having previously taken an oath…as an officer of the United States…to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid and comfort to the enemies thereof." In its December 19 decision applying that provision, the Colorado Supreme Court partly upheld and partly overturned a ruling by Denver District Court Judge Sarah B. Wallace.
The case began with a lawsuit by several anti-Trump voters who sought an injunction compelling Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold to exclude him from the presidential primary ballot. Trump and the Colorado Republican State Central Committee joined the case as intervenors. After a five-day trial, Wallace concluded that "clear and convincing evidence" showed Trump had engaged in insurrection but that Section 3 does not apply to the presidency. The Colorado Supreme Court agreed with the first conclusion but disagreed with the second.
In Maine, by contrast, three challenges to Trump's candidacy were filed directly with Secretary of State Shenna Bellows, who held a hearing on December 15. Based on "a preponderance of the evidence" (a weaker standard than the one used in Colorado), Bellows concluded that "Mr. Trump's primary petition is invalid" because "he is not qualified to hold the office of the President under Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment" and falsely claimed otherwise. The Trump campaign is appealing that decision in state court.
According to one interpretation of the 14th Amendment, neither the Colorado Supreme Court nor Bellows had the authority to decide whether Trump is disqualified based on his allegedly insurrectionary conduct. Under Section 5 of the amendment, "the Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." Congress arguably did that when it passed the Insurrection Act in 1948. Under that statute, "whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Although Trump has been charged with federal and state crimes based on his efforts to reverse the outcome of the 2020 presidential election, he has not been charged with insurrection, let alone convicted of that offense. According to some critics of the Colorado and Maine decisions, that means he cannot be excluded from the ballot under Section 3. That argument assumes that Section 3 can take effect only through congressional legislation and that a conviction based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt is necessary to disqualify Trump.
One piece of evidence in support of the first premise, dissenting Colorado Supreme Court Justice Carlos Samour Jr. noted, is an opinion that Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase wrote the year after the 14th Amendment was ratified. Chase took the position that Section 3 was not self-executing. University of Chicago law professor William Baude and University of St. Thomas law professor Michael Stokes Paulsen argue that Chase was "simply wrong on this point." While Congress could pass legislation to enforce Section 3, they say, that does not mean the provision has no effect without such legislation.
In a 2023 law review article, Baude and Paulsen make an originalist case for a broad reading of Section 3 that they think clearly covers Trump. They also argue that any state or federal official charged with determining who is qualified to appear on a ballot, which would include state judges and secretaries of state, is not only authorized but obligated to disqualify Trump, along with "potentially many others" who participated in "the attempted overthrow of the 2020 presidential election."
As Baude and Paulsen see it, "Section Three is self-executing, operating as an immediate disqualification from office, without the need for additional action by Congress." It therefore "can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications." Those officials, Baude and Paulsen concede, may have different views about what sort of conduct disqualifies a candidate under Section 3. But they say uncertainty about the reach of Section 3 does not absolve officials of the responsibility to enforce it.
"Some applications," such as "declaring unilateral secession from lawful constitutional government" or "the taking up of arms against government," will be "clear and virtually indisputable, falling within the terms' core meaning," Baude and Paulsen write. "At the other end of the continuum, there will be situations that clearly lie in a safe harbor outside the legitimate range of meaning of Section Three's terms—ordinary expression of political dissent as well as even ordinary law violations."
Between those two extremes, Baude and Paulsen say, "there is a zone of reasonable, fair construction of allowable interpretation and application in which government officials may make judgments that must be conceded to be within the range of what the Constitution permits—and where the decisions and actions of government officials exercising their constitutional powers consequently cannot be considered unlawful and thereby subject to judicial invalidation. Within that fair range of meaning, different interpreters legitimately can reach differing conclusions, all in accordance with the Constitution."
The implication is that Maine's courts have no business second-guessing Bellows' determination that Trump is disqualified from the ballot. Since Baude and Paulsen think Trump is clearly covered by Section 3, Bellows' agreement on that point must qualify as a "reasonable, fair construction" and "allowable" application, meaning it is not subject to "judicial invalidation." Such broad executive-branch discretion in applying an ambiguous constitutional provision seems to open a huge can of worms, especially given Baude and Paulsen's view that not just Trump but "potentially many" other candidates could be affected.
What about due process? Trump argues that neither Wallace's trial nor Bellows' hearing gave him an adequate opportunity to contest the claim that he engaged in insurrection. Many observers, including vigorous Trump critics, agree.
"Our government cannot deprive someone of the right to hold public office without due process of law," Samour wrote in his dissent. "Even if we are convinced that a candidate committed horrible acts in the past—dare I say, engaged in insurrection—there must be procedural due process before we can declare that individual disqualified from holding public office….If President Trump committed a heinous act worthy of disqualification, he should be disqualified for the sake of protecting our hallowed democratic system, regardless of whether citizens may wish to vote for him in Colorado. But such a determination must follow the appropriate procedural avenues. Absent adequate due process, it is improper for our state to bar him from holding public office."
The Washington Post made the same point in an editorial criticizing the Colorado Supreme Court's ruling. "The case's most consequential conundrum," it said, is "whether Mr. Trump really did engage in insurrection….What's missing from the majority's analysis is due process of law. Not only has Mr. Trump not been convicted of insurrection either by a jury of his peers or from the bench by a judge; he hasn't even been charged with it."
According to Baude and Paulsen, such criticism is misplaced. The Fifth and 14th Amendments say no person may be deprived of "life, liberty, or property" without "due process of law." But "it is far from clear that the right to hold public office is a form of
life, liberty, or property," Baude and Paulsen write. "It is a public privilege, a public trust, to be vested with the power of the people. And though it is a closer case, the same thing may be true even for those who already hold office at the moment that Section Three disqualifies them. Due process protects private vested rights from public deprivation. It does not protect public rights." In any case, they say, Section 3 supersedes due process in this context. They make a similar argument regarding potential conflicts between Section 3 and the First Amendment.
George Mason law professor Ilya Somin agrees that a criminal conviction is not necessary to disqualify Trump under Section 3. Since this is a civil process, he says, it makes sense that a weaker standard than proof beyond a reasonable doubt would apply. He also notes that "none of the ex-Confederates who were adjudged disqualified during Reconstruction had ever been convicted of any crimes related to their roles in the Civil War."
While former Confederates had indisputably participated in an insurrection, however, the same cannot be said of Trump. He vigorously denies it, and even critics who think he is manifestly unsuited for the presidency do not necessarily agree that his conduct is covered by Section 3. Nor is the historical record very helpful in answering that question.
In 2020, Indiana University law professor Gerard Magliocca wrote what he described as "the first scholarly account" of Section 3. In a 2021 Lawfare essay, Magliocca said he had been "unable to find any particularly helpful authority" on the question of what counts as an "insurrection." In the 1860s and 1870s, he noted, "everyone understood that the insurrection in question was the Confederacy, and no thought was given to what other insurrections might look like." He nevertheless thought the Capitol riot was plausibly viewed as an insurrection.
"The mob was seeking to halt or overturn a core constitutional function at the seat of government, which can reasonably be described as an attempt to replace law with force," Magliocca wrote. Furthermore, the criminal charges against some of the rioters indicated that they "intended to inflict bodily harm on members of Congress, which can be reasonably understood as a direct attack on the legislative branch itself and, more generally, the existing government."
More recently, Magliocca has taken a firmer stand. "I think that January 6 constitutes an insurrection within the meaning of Section 3," he told Boston's NPR station last week. "I think that former President Trump engaged in insurrection before and on January 6."
If "no thought was given to what other insurrections might look like" at the time the 14th Amendment was proposed and ratified, it is hard to be confident in that assessment. And if such disputes are to be resolved by state officials across the country, applying varying interpretations of Section 3 and varying standards of proof, the results are apt to be wildly uneven and inconsistent. "I am disturbed about the potential chaos wrought by an imprudent, unconstitutional, and standardless system in which each state gets to adjudicate Section Three disqualification cases on an ad hoc basis," Samour wrote. "Surely, this enlargement of state power is antithetical to the framers' intent."
To forestall that scenario, the U.S. Supreme Court need not reach the question of whether Trump engaged in insurrection. It could rule that Section 3 is not self-executing or that it does not apply to Trump because the presidential oath does not meet Section 3's criteria or because "any office, military or civil, under the United States" was not understood to include the presidency.
University of Richmond law professor Kurt Lash, a 14th Amendment scholar who recently wrote a paper on "the meaning and ambiguity" of Section 3, favors that last rationale. "At best, the text of Section 3 is ambiguous regarding the office of president," he writes in The New York Times. "The Supreme Court should limit the clause to its historically verifiable meaning and scope. Let the people make their own decisions about Donald Trump."
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As Baude and Paulsen see it, "Section Three is self-executing, operating as an immediate disqualification from office, without the need for additional action by Congress." It therefore "can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications." Those officials, Baude and Paulsen concede, may have different views about what sort of conduct disqualifies a candidate under Section 3. But they say uncertainty about the reach of Section 3 does not absolve officials of the responsibility to enforce it.
This is the insanity they operate under. "We can disagree about who broke the law, but we still have to punish everyone we think broke it."
If this was about anything but Trump, nobody would take it seriously. But Trump actually seems to break everyone's minds. There's no capacity to reason with anything.
I was just going to make the exact same point on the exact same paragraph. Thank you! Happy New Year
Likewise, happy New Year.
Has anyone else noticed that reason has stopped publishing anything about Gaza?
Reason isn’t reporting anything about the genocide in Gaza because it clearly demonstrates the depravity of the Jews.
Jews in Israel are committing a holocaust in Gaza with our tax dollars. They threatened to use nukes that they aren’t supposed to have. By targeting noncombatants in refugee camps they are committing the definition of crimes against humanity.
We shouldn’t be doubling down here. We need to stop them. We invaded Iraq with far less justification.
The world is recording the wests continued support and funding of this genocide, apartheid, terrorism and crimes against humanity committed by this stolen Jewish criminal state.
When you support and fund the bad guys, that’s what you are.
Reason has published an article from a genocidal Jewish perspective but it can’t be found even in the supposed “latest” archive list. For obvious reasons.
https://reason.com/podcast/2023/12/28/russ-roberts-life-in-israel-since-october-7-2/?comments=true#comment-10377867
This comment clearly demonstrates your depravity.
Because you advocate Jewish terrorism, genocide, apartheid and crimes against humanity.
You are depraved.
Jews are destroying everything and everyone in so they can exterminate all evidence of Palestinian life in Gaza. Genocide.
Well, if it’s genocide, they’re doing a pretty crappy job of it.
Just like Misek.
The “justification” for the invasion of Iraq was a false alarm about a WMD threat (nuclear, chemical, or biological) – a false alarm that, as it turns out, was largely raised by what was almost certainly the CIA sending anthrax to the obstinate members of Congress who actually (temporarily) upheld their oath to the Constitution and weren’t authorizing the illegal spying and detention powers the deep state wanted. Unfortunately, those feeble attempts on their lives quickly got them to change their tune.
There’s no such justification in Gaza. It’s a local conflict and none of our business. Which would you prefer us to intervene on behalf of: the homicidal, corrupt government of Israel, or the genocidal (nearly omnicidal!), corrupt government of Palestine?
Just like Ukraine is two corrupt dictators in a local pissing contest, the Israel-Palestine conflict isn’t really any of our business, either, except maybe in the context of rescuing any American hostages — but it’d be beyond insane to side with the people who TOOK those hostages in the first place.
So much for "on topic", you butt-clown. WTLF does THAT have to do with this article?
I cannot stress how stupid setting this broad interpretation of the 14th Amendment as precedent is. Once you go down this path, it will be used, by both sides. Having a standard of "insurrection" disconnected from standards of law and due process will lead nowhere good.
Anything someone else calls "insurrection" will actually become insurrection. You would only choose this path if you were actually banking on having an authoritarian regime or were amazingly niave.
Stealing billions in taxpayer funds to pay off student loans for your supporters seems like insurrection to me.
That's a very reason comment. "this thing the dems are doing is bad, because the Republicans might do the same"
It's inherently bad, and all at the foot of team d
It's both because if the precedent stands, Republicans will have to do the same thing. Well, either that or continue to function only as controlled opposition (which is also fairly likely I guess).
Due process gets in the way of Democracy!
They learned this from Title IX.
"Once you go down this path, it will be used, by both sides"
This is a common refrain from Trump apologists, but it is built on the flawed assumption that no evidence would be necessary to disqualify a candidate. That is patently ridiculous. Sure, anyone could file a frivolous lawsuit against any candidate. It would be treated the way the vast majority of frivolous lawsuits are treated: it would be laughed out of court.
Trump's problem is that there was evidence, it was presented in court, it satisfied evidentiary requirements, and it wasn't disputed by Trump even though he had the opportunity to do so. And then it was appealed and the Supreme Court concurred with the district court.
Your pearl-clutching about the weaponozation of this ruling is pure nonsense. Almost no one could satisfy the requirements of the 14th Amendment. Trump is the only one I can think of, except perhaps Nixon.
"Having a standard of “insurrection” disconnected from standards of law and due process will lead nowhere good."
This was a case brought in the courts and upheld by an appellate court. It's the definition of "standards of law" and "due process".
Sure, anyone could file a frivolous lawsuit against any candidate. It would be treated the way the vast majority of frivolous lawsuits are treated: it would be laughed out of court.
Except the argument being made is that it’s “self-executing.” Meaning it does not require a lawsuit to be filed, or a court to hear it. Any Secretary of State can simply come to this determination on their own using the flawed “logic” employed by the Democrats.
Beyond that, you claim there were hearings and evidence was presented. Except Trump was not given proper opportunities to mount a vigorous defense due to the nature of these hearings. He isn’t allowed to subpoena witnesses; they restrict how long the hearings can last. Instead of being able to show evidence that he’s not guilty of insurrection, the court simply accepts a biased Congressional report condemning him and accepts their conclusions.
It’s not a reasonable process to deprive everyone who would like to vote for Trump that opportunity.
"Except the argument being made is that it’s “self-executing.” Meaning it does not require a lawsuit to be filed, or a court to hear it."
I would argue that there needs to be some sort of due process around the "insurrection" part, which there was in Colorado. Having some rando paleocon say "illegal immigration means Joe Biden is an insurrectionist" isn't sufficient. Nor sane.
"Meaning it does not require a lawsuit to be filed, or a court to hear it"
Once the insurrection element has been established, the rest follows. But that is why I think the Colorado case has validity (subject to SCOTUS review, of course) and the Maine case does not. I don't think that insurrection can just be claimed without some sort of due process, but that process isn't limited to a criminal trial.
"Except Trump was not given proper opportunities to mount a vigorous defense due to the nature of these hearings."
I think that's, at best, an exaggeration. He did have the opportunity to mount a defense. He chose not to.
The argument that he didn't have a sufficient opportunity rings false because saying that the opportunity that Trump chose not to take wouldn't have been broad or strong enough ignores the fact that he made the decision not to oppose the evidence. At all.
"the court simply accepts a biased Congressional report condemning him and accepts their conclusions"
Admittedly, I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it this is a false statement. The Congressional report wasn't remotely the only basis for the finding, nor was it something that Trump couldn't have challenged, if he had chosen to. He chose not to.
"It’s not a reasonable process to deprive everyone who would like to vote for Trump that opportunity."
If a lawsuit, which included an opportunity for Trump to dispute the evidence, plus review by an appellate court, isn't sufficient then what would be? There is no requirement (or even indication) that a criminal conviction is necessary. This process seems to be sufficient by any reasonable standard.
Understand that I, personally, don't want Trump off the ballot. He is the only Republican that would lose and with the character of the Republican party these days I think a Republican President would be a horrifying nightmare of culture war legislation, anti-lgbt hysteria, and supply-side economics.
Biden isn't good, but only Chris Christie has the potential to be better. Which is a sad comment on the quality of candidates these days.
The fuck there was due process in Colorado.
If there was evidence that satisfied evidentiary requirements, why hasn't Trump been charged with insurrection? It's not like the Biden administration has been shy of charging him with everything else.
Because "insurrection" isn't a crime.
And even if it were, the evidence might only reach the "balance of evidence" threshold required by civil cases, not the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of criminal cases. That's why the NY fraud case is civil, not criminal.
It is a law. 18 U.S.C. 2383.
Trump has not been charged with it. The requirement to bring an indictment is only "probable cause," which is much lower than the standard necessary to reach a civil verdict, but also, this is derivation of rights due to a supposed criminal activity so you'd better have sufficient evidence to meet a criminal standard.
"Trump’s problem is that there was evidence, it was presented in court"
But there was no legal definition of the crime of "insurrection". The 1948 act does not define it, neither does any other act of Congress that I've found, nor the 14th Amendment itself. Unlike the Confederates that were the target of the insurrection clause in the 14th Amendment, no one bore arms against the USA on J6. No one purported to create a different government. The action did not occur across several states or for years. But you want to extend that implicit definition until it covers every riot - but not when it's leftists that riot!
And it doesn't even apply to the president. It's completely absurd to think that the authors listed every other federal elected position to which it applies but not the president. If they had intended it to apply to the president, they would have made that explicit as they did for congress and electors.
The proposition that S3 is self-executing is nonsense. Taking that idea to its logical conclusion, each and every of the states could singularly dictate the presidential ballot/election process.
But Bingham and the reconstruction boys never intended for Jefferson Davis, for example, to become the president, which that silly “ self-executing” mumbo-jumbo theoretically allows. Just scream “ insurrectionists” until you get your boy.
These democrat clowns stopped reading, apparently. Section 5 isn’t complicated; its plain language underscores the absence of any self-execution for S3, and of the other sections. Congress enforces the provisions-and just congress, not the states, not some lunatic SOS, not judges.
If it's self-executing, then why did they need a Colorado district court to come to a legal finding that Trump was guilty of insurrection? That's what, in essence, happened, except Trump was denied a robust defense and the power to subpoena many relevant witnesses because 1) A Colorado court has no jurisdiction over witnesses in DC, and 2) The narrow statute the court was using to review eligibility required a ruling within 5 days (which the court substantially violated in multiple ways).
If it's self executing, then why is there a Section 5 that gives Congress the power to write legislation? It seems like Section 5 implies that there's a process to execute this.
If it is self-executing, what is to stop some buck private from overthrowing FJB and the Pentagon leadership? Commenters here have written that they are disqualified due to the Afghanistan withdrawal.
S5 was drafted to obtain a robust( federalism) balance of power. The reconstruction crowd didn’t want the former rebel states or its players from contravening the essence or principles of the 14A, itself.
Recall, it was the 14A that gave real weight to then-novel rights and constrained shit like Jim Crow. It was the muscle behind federal civil rights and equal protection, etc., on a state actor and state-level basis. But without S5, that legislation had no teeth.
SCOTUS won’t take long in reminding the states, the judges, the lunatic TDS crowd that any execution of the 14A, S3, must come from congress.
"The proposition that S3 is self-executing is nonsense."
Let's unpack that. It's understood that this clause was inserted to prevent Confederate officers (civil and military) from holding office. Correct? And Section 5 was passed at the exact same time as Section 3, since they were in the same Amendment. Correct?
So why didn't Congress pass legislation like the Insurrection Act of 1948 at the same time it passed the 14th Amendment? Do you think it just slipped their minds?
Or did they, the authors of the 14th Amendment, know that Section 3 was self-executing?
“So why didn’t Congress pass legislation like the Insurrection Act of 1948 at the same time it passed the 14th Amendment? Do you think it just slipped their minds?”
Did you read the dissent? It identifies the enforcement acts passed by congress on the heels of the 14A. Those acts effectively destroyed the blacks codes, Jim Crow and, yep, the KKK.
So obviously congress knew that the 14A wasn’t self-executing. It just doesn’t, never did, stand on its own two feet. Section 5, in and of itself, makes that same statement but with greater voice and in plain-meaning language.
Congress was particularly worried and skeptical about the effects of Dred Scott, and of the rebel states, of course. Hence the inclusion of S5. The enforcement acts were just the specific branches of the S5 tree.
But the larger issue you confront is the preemption ( doctrine) issue insofar as these state decisions directly challenge and confront federal law- namely, 18 U.S. Code 2383, the current “ insurrection” law.
Want to guess who’s supreme?
Good luck convincing SCOTUS that the states get to arbitrarily declare who or what is insurrection without 2383 being applied.
"It identifies the enforcement acts passed by congress on the heels of the 14A."
As I inderstand it, that isn't the predominant interpretation. I'm not a lawyer, so I may be misunderstanding the consensus, but I also believe that nothing before 1948 addressed insurrection directly.
"Those acts effectively destroyed the blacks codes, Jim Crow and, yep, the KKK."
Yes, there weren't any of those things after the Civil War. Did you intend that as sarcasm?
"Want to guess who’s supreme?"
As I understand it, when there's a conflict between the Constitution and a statute, the Constitution wins.
"Good luck convincing SCOTUS that the states get to arbitrarily declare who or what is insurrection without 2383 being applied."
As I understand it, that's exactly where this seems to be headed. I'll be interested to see how it gets adjudicated.
FWIW, I would prefer to see Trump on the ballot. I just have become convinced, from reading various posts and comments here, that it is a valid ruling.
I think the Maine disqualification is invalid unless it is adjudicated in the courts.
It's not Trump that has broken people's minds. It is loyalty to partisan hackery - DeRpty DeRp - that has broken people's minds.
No, it's a manifestation of broken minds. We now have a large portion of the US population, mostly liberal and mostly young, who have been conditioned to first embrace fragility and then to process any risk as existential catastrophe. Besides Trump, they cannot deal rationally with COVID, climate change, speech, money, or anything that the rest of us simply see as adult challenges to deal with.
they cannot deal rationally with COVID, climate change, speech, money
You forgot to add “genitals”.
Correction:
'No, it’s a manifestation of broken minds like the shitbag JFree'.
Your mommy said you were smart. She lied as you've proven yourself here,
Fuck off and die, asshole.
FFS. It isn't a bunch of woke snowflakes creating ideas of Trump and insurrection from their fevered dreams.
His VP was fearful enough for either his life or his political future to initially not go to do his official obligation of overseeing that Jan 6 count. His son - who took his oath of office in the military - told his dad "You took an oath too".
All eight Joint Chiefs of Staff - Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Space Force, National Guard, Vice-Chairman, and Chairman signed a letter to everyone in the military a few days later on Jan 12. Since no assclowns here ever read any link I will extract it.
The American people have trusted the Armed Forces of the United States to protect them and our Constitution for almost 250 years. As we have done throughout our history, the U.S. military will obey lawful orders from civilian leadership, support civil authorities to protect live and property, ensure public safety in accordance with the law, and remain fully committed to protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The violent riot in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021 was a direct assault on the U.S. Congress, the Capitol building, and our Constitutional process. We mourn the deaths of the two Capitol policemen and others connected to these unprecedented events.
We witnessed actions inside the Capitol building that were inconsistent with the rule of law. The rights of freedom of speech and assembly do not give anyone the right to resort to violence, sedition, and insurrection.
As Service Members, we must embody the values and ideals of the Nation. We support and defend the Constitution. And act to disrupt the Constitutional process is not only against our traditions, values, and oath; it is against the law.
On January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Constitution, confirmed by the states and the courts, and certified by Congress, President-elect Biden will be inaugurated and will become our 46th Commander in Chief.
To our men and women deployed and at home, safeguarding our country - stay ready, keep your eyes on the horizon, and remain focused on the mission. We honor your continued service in defense of every American.
What other President has so disgraced their oath of office that it becomes incumbent on the military to acknowledge the transition of power because the incumbent won't EVER do that publicly? And note the word insurrection. What other generation of Americans would still continue to vote for such a disgrace when it is obvious that his oath of office will never mean anything. Which could have very evil consequences.
This lawsuit should not be necessary. That it is necessary is a serious indictment of all you commenters and cultees. That you yourselves despise the Constitution and will throw it in the toilet for your partisan games. You people are scum.
Fuck Shenna Bellows
And Jake Sullum.
And Eric Boehm.
And ENB better get me my fucking sandwich!
Gross.
Chumby better double bag it and buy lots of soap for after. Sulphur from the brimstone isn't pleasant.
ML, don’t stick it in crazy dipshits.
Are you male or female, Chumby?
Are you abysmally stupid or an embarrassment to the human race ObviouslyFullofShit?
Chumbys exists in a higher plain of existance
Perhaps the question was too binary...
While former Confederates had indisputably participated in an insurrection, however, the same cannot be said of Trump.
And this is not an insubstantial argument. Confederates who held positions in Congress may think that they were justified in seceding. They may think they had every right. But they could not and would not claim that they didn't actually leave the United States. They couldn't dispute that an insurrection had taken place and that they broke ties with the government, even if they pretend it was justified.
It is entirely of a different character than January 6, which is probably best described as a political protest turned riotous. At least, even if you doubt it, it is still a "reasonable" interpretation of Trump's intent on that day, given the lack of any evidence outside of malicious interpretations of what it means to "fight" in that context. You can't conclude clearly with a sufficient burden of evidence that Trump intended to start an insurrection unless you find more evidence of him expressing much more clearly his intentions. Text messages to Proud Boys leaders telling them to break into the Capitol. Twitter DMs to Oathkeepers remind them to shoot Mike Pence on sight if he doesn't play ball.
You'd need SOME evidence of his intention to cause a riot or insurrection, other than inferences drawn from your prejudiced idea of his character. Because protesting is legal, and if you curtail it by setting a precedent that a protest gone out of hand is going to be interpreted as an attempt to overthrow the government, it's unsuitable chilling of speech.
Interesting sentence from Sullum, because just four hours earlier, Boehm published this gem:
As a precedent for the current situation involving Trump and the 14th Amendment, Berger's case probably has little value. For one, Berger plainly didn't engage in an insurrection
That strongly implies Trump did engage in an insurrection.
Are the walls closing in or are they not, Reason?
Clearly only secretaries of state are qualified to determine what qualifies as insurrection.
And having so determined, they can only ban Presidential Electors who engaged in insurrection, not Presidential candidates.
That would be true if electors were on the ballot. GOP submitted applications for Trump to be on the ballot. Is he qualified to be on the ballot? Apparently not. Who decides this question? I say the State does following their own election laws. Certainly not Congress.
Who decides this question? I say the State does following their own election laws. Certainly not Congress.
And how do you come to the conclusion that it's exclusively in the province of the states to decide who gets ballot access for the office of the Presidency? What is your reference for that?
The Constitution gives the federal government authority over the manner of the House and Senate elections (it says, "The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators") but does not do so for Presidential elections (it says, "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors").
Presidential "elections" are simply the state's method of appointing electors to the electoral college. The federal government can tell the states they can't appoint an insurrectionist as an elector, but has no business telling the states "you can't appoint that elector because everyone thinks he's going to vote for THAT guy." I'd even argue they have no business telling the electors they can't vote for an ineligible candidate; if such a candidate is elected then the VP serves, according to the 20th Amendment.
His ass.
Yeah, then there's the double absurdity of applying this to primaries, which are neither elections for president nor for presidential electors.
"Clearly only secretaries of state are qualified to determine what qualifies as insurrection."
I agree with all you Trumpkins on this. A court case with due process, evidence, and an opportunity to refute that evidence is completely justified and valid.
A Secretary of State unilaterally declaring a candidate invalid is a problem. Unless it is reviewable by the courts.
A call to arms to overthrow the government would be a decent starting point for insurrection.
Sadly they have no such evidence and want to consider purely political hyperbole as such when you can take any politician you want and find examples of speech that would seem to qualify as 'insurrection' by their flimsy measure. It's a sort of "I know it when I see it" kind of retarded logic that they're trying to employ here.
This is such a clear road to the dissolution of the Union that it boggles the mind that it's something supposedly serious people are considering as truth.
If States can just decide to remove people from the ballot, what use is voting? For a party that caws endlessly about representation and democracy, that's a pretty bit of straight authoritarianism that seems to be unnoticed by the usual gaggle of geese. It's also the road to voting by the bullet, and I'd rather not see that in my lifetime.
Ha! People immediately calling J6 an insurrection were playing the long game. So clear in hindsight.
Hmm... should I go drag up your comments from that day?
Why bother?
Sure, why not? I'm sure you'll do like with Rittenhouse and claim I meant whatever you think I meant. Then continue to repeat the lie no matter how many times I correct you. Dlam, Big Mac and ICP will join in like thirteen year old girls.
So go ahead. Prove me right.
They used that term incessantly for a reason. And if this stands, virtually every Republican on Earth can be kicked off a ballot for not appropriately "fighting an insurrection"
What is up with Democrats kicking Republicans off ballots? First Lincoln now Trump.
It was extremely clear at the time.
Threat to democracy: protesting too loudly or vigorously that you think the vote count was rigged.
Not a threat to democracy: banning the leading opposition candidate because he complained about the previous vote count.
Stalin would be proud.
This whole thing is just so amazingly fucked up. I'm shocked that anyone who isn't 100% democrat partisan is trying to defend it. This is incredibly scary and dangerous.
"political protest turned riotous". Sure. I suggest you read the ruling from the Colorado Supreme Court. Their reasoning makes far more sense than yours.
Their ruling is one of the biggest, most convoluted pieces of shit I’ve ever seen come out of a Supreme Court, anywhere, and that includes Kelo.
I've read the ruling and it's a hilarious contortion to overcome the Brandenburg standard, and it's clearly motivated reasoning arguing to come up with the conclusion they wanted. Using dictionary definitions to come to a legal determination is always a bit suspect, as well. And they blatantly ignored due process, in that Trump wasn't allowed to put on an actual defense to the allegations that he'd committed an insurrection.
Did you read the dissents? Boatright's was good, but I thought Samour's dissent was extremely well-written. I skimmed through Berkenkotter's but didn't find it uniquely valuable, covering ground both of the other dissents explored better-she should have just joined with one of them in dissenting. But then, it was such an egregious ruling that it makes sense that all three dissenting judges felt they needed to write something.
All the dissenting judges were willing to author and put their name on their arguments. Curiously enough, the majority opinion was Per Curium-meaning the person who authored the majority opinion didn't want to put their name out there.
How many 4-3 per curium decisions (that reach the merits and aren't something routine like a denial of cert) are there?
I have no idea. For all I know it’s extremely common. Usually in SCOTUS rulings you know who authored it, so that’s the extent of my experience. I just find it impressive in this case, there are three different dissents written, and not just one that the other dissenters joined, and that comes paired with a majority opinion written by Question Mark.
I suggest you stuff your TDS up your ass, fuck off and die, asshole.
But "it is far from clear that the right to hold public office is a form of life, liberty, or property," Baude and Paulsen write. "It is a public privilege, a public trust, to be vested with the power of the people. And though it is a closer case, the same thing may be true even for those who already hold office at the moment that Section Three disqualifies them. Due process protects private vested rights from public deprivation. It does not protect public rights."
The exact same thing is true of the right to vote. However, since that is presumptively granted by the state to everyone, it can become a protected right. It cannot be seized without due process. Imagine if you could ban someone from being able to vote simply by filling a civil suit against them, claiming they're dangerous to the public.
I'd better not give Democrats any ideas.
The Constitution lists 3 requirements to become president. This line of thinking being pushed by democrat "legal experts" is a run around those requirements, nothing more.
Those three are the minimum requirements. They aren't the only requirements.
Yes, they are. That's what "requirment" means. If there are other requirements, where are they listed?
That's a good point. And the scholarly argument about public versus private here reveals the lengths to which these academics are willing to go to justify their goal of stopping Trump. I am honestly amazed that we are even having this conversation.
It's clearly the liberty to run for elected office they want to deprive Trump of.
Would any of this be happening if Trump was fighting it out for 4th place in primary polling, I wonder.
Exactly the comment I came here to make.
So many articles to publicize the narrative democrats want, that Trump is an insurrectionist. So few articles on lawfare and the twisting of the law by democrats to interfere on elections. No articles on Biden impeachment inquiries.
But no bias on this site.
Here's why.
Koch Political Machine Vows to Fight to Deny Trump GOP Nomination in 2024
Fuck Nikki Haley.
I’m not above it.
If we find a third we can make her an airtight candidate for the presidency.
I wouldn't fuck her with Hilary's dick but each to their own.
Maybe Hillary can be our third?
(OK, now I'm just being gross.)
I’m not agreeing to that.
You mean "neo-Confederate Nikki Haley." South Carolinians gonna South Carolina.
And here you are...
Reason was ours before you Kochsuckers and the brown-envelope crew.
Actually, I think it was the Reason Foundation's. Or are you expressing some kind of property interest in this comment section?
"And here you are…"
From ObviouslyFullofShit.
Always the same erudition from our dear Scato.
As much as I don’t care for Trump, the Trump haters will pay for this retardation, possibly by helping to bring him back.
If it's what the 14th Amendment says, it's the law.
Which it doesn't, ObviouslyFullofShit.
Fuck off and die.
The 14A stipulates that the person cannot hold the office, not that s/he cannot run for office. Mustn't the arguments about Trump's qualification to serve as president be brought up only if he's elected?
Good question and one of many we have no answer to because no one in the history of the republic has ever been as contemptuous of the rule of law as the current Democrat regime.
They didn't stop John McCain from running for President, when he was clearly ineligible due to being born outside the country (and two years before the "natural born citizen" requirement was legally modified to include those born to American parents in the Panama Canal Zone.)
Didn't he also give "aid and comfort" to the Vietcong while a POW?
I loathe McCain, but let us not slander the man. He was quite courageous in regards to his time in Vietnam.
Being a terrible Senator and abysmal candidate for President should not demean that.
Apparently, some states have laws saying only people qualified to hold the office may appear on the ballot; others don't. But that's up to the states.
Your point was addressed in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling. You should read it.
Put a sock in it, troll.
"Your point was addressed in the Colorado Supreme Court ruling. You should read it."
If that was the case, a TDS-addled shit pile like you might have linked to the relevant comments. Instead we get a claim that 'someone told me so'.
Stuff your TDS up your ass, and then please fuck off and die. Make the world a better place and your family proud.
If section three is 'self-executing', why was section five written?
(serious question, I can't find much on it that has citations)
Only a professional lawyer can reach two seemingly contradictory conclusions at the same time.
If Section 3 is a law unto itself, why does it come after Section 1 (which requires due process to deprive anyone of liberty.)
It's an interesting question. You could also ask why none of the Amendments prior to the Civil War had that language. Perhaps the Supreme Court will enlighten us?
Perhaps ObviouslyFullofShit will stuff his TDS up his ass and then make the world a better place by fucking off and dying.
It is clear that there is no definitive answer on Trump's eligibility to run for the Presidency. We have seen Democratic leaning states like Michigan and California leave Trump on the ballot while Maine and Colorado have barred Trump. In the end it will be SCOTUS that decides. What may be interesting is seeing how the Justices decide. The six-member conservative majority have championed original intend and textualism and based on their earlier decision Trump should lose here. Can they find a way around their beliefs to keep him on the ballot?
"Michigan and California leave Trump on the ballot while Maine and Colorado have barred Trump. In the end it will be SCOTUS that decides."
Because Biden could rape a baby on TV in Michigan and California and they'd still vote Democrat, but there's a real chance that Trump could take purple Maine and Colorado.
Maine splits the electoral votes. Each of the two congressional districts go to whomever wins each. The candidate with the most total votes gets the other two electoral votes.
1 + 1 + 2 = four total
Biden likely takes northern Mass and at least a coin toss for the two electoral votes for the total popular vote. Maine’s northern CD isn’t likely going to Biden with Trump on the ballot. Bellows engaged in election interference to fortify two electoral votes and steal one other.
What I read said Trump had been removed from the primary ballot. Nothing about the general. I think it's better that they're trying it now because there's time for it to go to higher court (and hopefully struck down) before the general election.
I think we're in agreement that Trump should not be removed from the ballot, though probably for different reasons.
How would a candidate for a major party get on the general election ballot if they had been banned by one partisan hack from appearing on the primary ballot?
Let the people decide. That is what is better. If Trump gets the R nomination and Biden continues to make it down for breakfast, let Americans decide.
How would a candidate for a major party get on the general election ballot if they had been banned by one partisan hack from appearing on the primary ballot?
Hopefully the courts will figure that out. And I agree with the rest.
Though this brings up why ballot access should be easier, not harder. What if the GOP decided to kick Trump out? How could he get on the general ballot then?
Allow the GOP bylaws to play out, though they have previously fucked Maine before (q.v., 2012 giving half the delegates to Romney when Paul won the “winner take all” convention). I wasn’t aware the GOP was planning to ban Trump.
If Trump didn’t win the primary because Bellows et. al. interfered with him having the ability to obtain that nomination by unilaterally removing him from primary ballots, how would Trump appear on the general election ballot?
I wasn’t aware the GOP was planning to ban Trump.
That was pure what-if. Thought experiment. How would he get on the ballot if that happened?
how would Trump appear on the general election ballot?
I don't know. As I said before, that's for the courts to figure out.
If my aunt had nuts, she’d be my uncle. We could make a “bears in trunks” what if too.
Essentially, a D party hack bans him until after he could be nominated then say “my bad” afterwards.
Saw Bob Marley live once. Got most of his jokes. Would go again. Not sure what you're talking about.
What ifs are wishful thinking.
What ifs are wishful thinking.
If that's all you can imagine then you only ponder things you wish were true, rather than out of curiosity. Sad.
Even if you aunt doesn’t have nuts, she can be your uncle. It’s almost 2024, bigot!
It is sad when folks engage in wishful thinking.
You saying that what-ifs like "The Man in the High Castle" and "Handmaid's Tale" are wishful thinking?
I don't.
Fiction entertainment?
Sure Mister Fantastic. Whatever you say.
I’m asking. I know that one of them exists but don’t know the other and don’t “know” either. Is it some alternate history thing?
And as I said, this really highlights why ballot access should be easier.
removing him from primary ballots, how would Trump appear on the general election ballot?
Does removing him from the primary ballots guarantee that he will not be selected by the party? I don't know.
I could write a book about the things you don’t know.
A bunch of things that aren't worth knowing. Sounds pretty useless.
You do not have the time available to you to do so.
That lying pile of lefty shit has shown he knows how to lie and prevaricate and little else.
Hey, lying pile of lefty shit: Fuck off and die. Make your dog happy and your family proud.
Sevo has a dog and a mother. Interesting. I thought his kind reproduced by fission.
This might result in record write-in votes. That would be hilarious.
Heck, if this sticks I might become a registered Republican voter in order to write him in. Principles not principals.
This is as bald a lie as you claiming sobriety.
You have backed virtually every use of lawfare against him. Refuse to even here attack democrats for the use.
When you lie constantly it turns out nobody will believe you.
I know why you lie. Because people believe you.
How fucking dumb are you?
Primaries are run by the political parties. There's generally no requirement that they choose their candidates in an open election. Republicans in states where Trump has been barred from the primary ballot could simply nominate him directly.
That's about what I figured.
This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot. On January 6, 2025, Vice President Harris, acting in her role as President of the US Senate, will follow the Trump Administration dictum that a Vice President has the authority to decide which slate of electors to count and she will not count any electors from Red States, thus giving President Biden his re-election win.
Ed is getting scared here, as lefty shits should.
Ed, stuff your TDS up your ass. Your head has been begging for company forever.
Did they not pass a law to insure that what you theorize literally cannot happen?
Bellows engaged in election interference to fortify two electoral votes and steal one other.
Yeah, but it’s Maine… so, no widespread election interference.
It affects one or three electoral votes.
It's mostly peaceful election interference.
Bellows engaged in election interference to fortify two electoral votes and steal one other.
Sounds like insurrection to me.
"Because Biden could rape a baby on TV in Michigan and California and they’d still vote Democrat,"
Do you remember who won Michigan on 2016? And Biden's margin there in 2020? Obviously not.
Horse shit. There is no dispute about the original intent of the amendment.
We don't KNOW which insurrection they were really concerned about.
"The six-member conservative majority have championed original intend and textualism and based on their earlier decision Trump should lose here."
Inventing new meanings for words and applications while redefining definitions isn't textualism, you fucking parody.
You have it backwards. "The six-member conservative majority have championed original intent and textualism and based on their earlier decision Trump should win here." Fixt.
Justice Samour's dissent in the Colorado SC case is the exact blueprint for a SCOTUS majority decision.
The six-member conservative majority have championed original intend and textualism and based on their earlier decision Trump should lose here.
I know this is just agent provocateur Moderation4ever, but the original intent of the amendment was for the Federal government to overrule Reconstruction States ability to elect Confederates to the Federal government.
There is no universe where you can twist that around to mean that the States can overrule the Federal government. That is real insurrection rather than the imagined kind.
Using general language and not mentioning the “obvious” purpose now looks a little unwise, doesn’t it?
The definitive answer is that the Amendment was clearly meant to stop Confederates, and that bunch of unarmed yahoos was not an insurrection. Therefore he should clearly be on the ballot.
No, the riot was not the insurrection.
Whether Trump should be on the ballot depends on what the Supreme Court decides the 14th Amendment means.
ObvioslyFullofShit is now grasping at straws here.
Scared, asshole? You should be. Scumbags like you started this, assuming you held all the cards and, just now finding your pair of jacks ain't a winning hand.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
On original intent, Trump would be back on the ballot. The authors of the Amendment could have called out the President specifically (as they did Senators and Representatives and Presidential Electors), but they did not.
Textually, Gorsuch might not be able to get past the "hold any office" bit which is clearly intended to mean lower offices or future, unnamed offices.
"Clearly"...
ObvioslyFullofShit is now straw-grasping. Fuck off and die, asshole
Can they find a way around their beliefs to keep him on the ballot?
Talk about poisoning the well. Fuck off.
We all know the Supreme Court tries to keep clear of politics and this case is very political. There are people who want Trump off the ballot. I think Biden supporters see Trump as the weakest general election candidate, so why create controversy. Removing Trump gives Republicans a chance for a stronger candidate, so outward indignation while secretly smiling inward.
The language of the amendment is pretty straight forward, and the Constitution does set limits for the office of the Presidency. No matter how much you may like a 30-year-old candidate, you cannot vote for that person. Likewise, a naturalized citizen, no matter how many years they have been a citizen.
As to original intent we know it was aimed at Confederates, the language does suggest others and it was used against Victor Berger in 1919 (see Reason).
So, the Court which has wanted to stay within the language and intend of the Constitution and which also want to stay above the realm of politics has a very tough decision. It will be interesting to see how they chose to handle the case. Can they split the difference, or do they have to give something up?
It is clear that there is no definitive answer on Trump’s eligibility to run for the Presidency.
Actually there is.
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
Trump is qualified. He never, ever fought for the Confederacy.
Cool. And the Second Amendment only protects the right to own muskets.
The right to keep and bear ARMS.
Which at the time, included cannon and warships.
(just for the record: at the time, a musket was one of the deadliest arms available)
found the glowie
That’s some big brain level energy.
Victor Berger was also not a Confederate, he only spoke out about US involvement in WWI and Section 3 was used to keep him from a Congressional seat.
And of course Jacob in the end endorses the solution that the Supreme Court find a narrow interpretation of section 3 that excludes the president but leaves the door open for whatever other novel prosecutions can be invented to stop Trump. Questions of due process and whether or not section 3 is "self executing" we'll leave for another day. That may be what we get but I suspect that at least a couple of justices will go a bit further. Even if it's only dicta.
Whatever one thinks of Trump, enabling a state Sec of State or Supreme Courtto bar a candidate from running based on his personal definition of "insurrection" is a dangerously stupid can of worms to open, which can only end badly. I fully expect in a one party state that "insurrection" will eventually be defined as running on any other ticket than the dominant party.
I swear, the people who claim to be protecting "democracy" from Trump are multiple times more dangerous to republican institutions than he could be.
What makes you think Trump appearing on Maine's Republican primary ballot will be decided based on a personal definition of "insurrection"? Is it all over?
Doesn't the Constitution give States the sole power of organizing elections? And doesn't each State have their own regulations? Plenty of people have been determined unqualified to be on State ballots and no one complained (or very few) I see nothing wrong with Trump being banned from the ballot. The only hitch I see is one of due process.
No, actually. There's quite a lot of power Congress dictates to the States regarding elections. Have you read the Constitution?
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
Each state can, via their legislature, direct the Manner in which Electors are appointed. But Congress has sufficient authority over elections to tell them that "No Senator or Representative or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States" can be an elector. So clearly Congress has some restrictive power on how elections can be held.
Furthermore, "The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States." Meaning Congress tells States when the electors are chosen and when the votes are given. So States can't control that.
Also, this is the qualification listed for holding the office of the Presidency: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." Again, this is a clear restriction placed on the States-they can't cast electoral voters for people who aren't natural born citizens, nor anyone who is not yet 35 years old.
So clearly states do not hold the sole power of running elections when there's so many things that are dictated to the States. And it's a clear federalism issue when individual states can determine that someone is ineligible for the office of President. Because what happens if a state determines that a person is not qualified, and yet all the other states elect him? Then he's the President, regardless of their disqualification, meaning they actually don't HAVE the power to disqualify him.
Don't confuse the TDS-addled Slickrick with facts. That's the last thing TDS-addled shits want to read.
I disagree with some of that.
They have *exactly* as much power as the Constitution says they have. If it says they have power over the manner of House and Senate elections then they have power over the manner of House and Senate elections; that doesn't give them power over Presidential elections. It would have to say so, and it doesn't. And even if Presidential elections were regulated the same way House and Senate elections were, Congress would have to pass a law to take that power, and it has not.
They can cast electoral votes for such a person. Such a person would be ruled ineligible to serve and the 20th Amendment says the VP would serve.
Again, the 20th would kick in and the VP would serve (although that's obviously not a determination states, whether 1 or 49, can make.)
If it causes Biden to win, then it reluctantly ends goodly.
As history repeats itself ... Hitler (democrats) are taking over the election because someone who wasn't even present supposidly ?insurrection-al? started the Reichstag fire.
No need to cheat the election anymore just cut the opposition off the ballet. Only treasonous [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] are allowed to run for office who will destroy the USA (US Constitution) by 'democratic' dictation and complete ignorance to what the USA is by definition!!!! /s
So do TDS-addled shit-piles like Sullum select the subjects to write about, or are they assigned?
Jacob has been seriously damaged by his work related TDS. I suspect that if Reason tried to fire him he'd file a disability claim and probably walk away with a hefty settlement. Koch is evil but he's not stupid.
Generally the news picks the subjects for them, then Trump Deranged Supporters (TDS) like yourself bitch, moan, whine and complain.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
Now you're talking dirty...
WHEN, at long last and at long lust, WHEN are ye gonna SHOW us just exactly HOW to fuck off and die, ye EVIL hypocrite? Do ass I say, and SNOT ass I DO, right, right-wing hypocritical asshole?
SmegmaLung, this is NO way for you to earn yourself a SQRL necklace! NO SQRL necklace for YOU! BAD dog!
SmegmaLung AKA Swine-Stone Cowboy!!! Pearl-handled Pig!
Oh Ye Rhinestone-whine-stone pig-pedo in a speedo! What is YOUR favorite year of Rhine-whine-wine, Ye Greatest of ALL Great-Sour-Grapes Oink-oink-oenophiles?
Hey Smegmalung!
Don’t you have more important things to do, instead of thread-shitting here? As San Fran’s foremost homeless hobo, couldn’t you be doing your “squeegee” racket, fighting with the other bums, pooping in the streets, and yelling insane, deluded insults at passers-by?
Smegmalung’s next gig in Gay Ol’ San Fran: Burglary, which San Fran’s media suggests should now be tolerated!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/san-francisco-chronicle-ripped-for-asking-if-residents-should-tolerate-burglaries
San Francisco Chronicle ripped for asking if residents should 'tolerate burglaries'
Next on the Hit Parade for the San Francisco Chronicle: asking if residents should tolerate (even celebrate maybe?), not just burglary, butt also 'child buggery' by Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
The below poetry is dedicated to Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
He's a real pedo man
Playing with his pedo gland
Dropping his smegma across the land
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Butt he spews stupid insults at you!
Pedo man, please listen
You don't know what you're missin’
Smegma man, the world is at your command
He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Pedo man, can you see me at all
Smegma man don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all 'til somebody else
Lends you a hand
Ah, la, la, la, la
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Butt he spews stupid insults at you!
Pedo man, please listen
You don't know what you're missin’
Smegma man, the world is at your command
…
The below poetry is dedicated to Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo,
AKA “SmegmaLung”!
Sitting on a park bench
Eyeing little boys with bad intent
Snot's running down his nose
Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes
Hey, SmegmaLung!
Drying in the cold sun
Watching as the frilly panties run
Hey, SmegmaLung!
Feeling like a dead duck
Spitting out pieces of his broken luck
Oh, SmegmaLung!
Sun streaking cold
A hateful man wandering lonely
Insulting others the only way he knows
Brain hurts bad as he tries to think
Goes down to the bog to spread his stink
Feeling alone
The army's up the road
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea
SmegmaLung, my friend
Don't you start away uneasy
You poor old sod
You see, it's only me
By you insulting me,
The rotting goes to thee!
Be careful man!!! Do NOT piss off Sevo the Pedo, man!!! Sevo the Pedo has special permission to insult others all day every day, with unfounded accusations, but can NOT be trolled by disrespectin’ others!!! Or else Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, will SUE you in the courts of Government Almighty!!! Pedo’s LAWYERS might wear speedos IN YOUR FACE in court ass well, so BEWARE!!!
Dude. Don't ruin the Beatles. Gross.
I am the eggman,
I am the eggman,
I am the sealion,
goo goo ajoob.
Not even worth an F-, NaziSqrlsy.
All these efforts to remove Trump from even being considered for president completely skip over, what should be bedrock of the efforts; Was January 6, 2021 an insurrection?
The Webster definition: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government is overly broad for something with such far reaching punishment, as any protest, that might result in "civil authorities" responding, to halt the activities makes it fall under this category.
Most look on "insurrection" as an effort to overthrow the government.
That wasn't what happened on January 6.
It was, according to a majority of people polled, a protest against the recent election, that turned violent, as have so many protests in the past.
There was no path towards the government being overthrown, even by those engaging in violence to enter the Capitol building, nor can anyone cite evidence of the participants believing that it would.
Failing the test of whether it was an insurrection, the 14th amendment does not come into play.
Exactly this. J6 was not an insurrection. Even if their intent was to "disrupt" the proceedings, it would not have changed the result. They had no plan to do anything. That's the difference between a riot and an insurrection.
Plus there's the minor fact that Trump left office without any guns pointed at him. If that's insurrection I think their definition is fatally flawed.
Look at the Reconstruction governor of Texas (Edmund Jackson Davis) to realize what that might look like.
Aye. That bunch of unarmed yahoos was the worst "insurrection" ever.
Though you're not allowed to call it a riot either because of the Summer of Floyd.
Mostly peaceful arsons.
Insurrection: protesting on public property that the vote count might be suspect.
Not insurrection: burning down cities, attacking federal courthouses, declaring "autonomous zones" and keeping government public safety officers out, even as people are assaulted and dying.
Hilariously, the "Summer of Floyd" as you put it might actually count as an insurrection, at least for those involved with CHAZ/CHOP. They did declare it was no longer part of the United States after all.
Insurrectionist Trump offered national guard troops to maintain order but was refused by Pelosi. Insurrectionist Trump's administration cooperated with the incoming administration and there was an orderly transition of power. Insurrectionist Trump's supporters showed up at the Capitol without any firearms. Worst insurrection ever.
Yeah, it's not like they removed all the 'R' keys from the keyboards either.
And Insurrectionist Trump ordered them to stop! Worst Insurrection Ever.
"...That wasn’t what happened on January 6..."
Nor could it have happened. The jackasses might just as well charge
the protesters with planning to levitate the capitol, and Trump with leading such a plan.
Sure, if you conveniently misunderstand the "insurrection" in which Trump has been adjudicated as having engaged as being just the Capitol Riot, then it is hard to see how that isolated event meets any but the Webster dictionary definition so helpfully provided by retiredfire above.
"Or Sure, if you conveniently misunderstand the “insurrection” in which Trump has been adjudicated as having engaged as being just the Capitol Riot, then it is hard to see how that isolated event meets any but the Webster dictionary definition so helpfully provided by retiredfire above."
Notice that ObviouslyFullofShit cites no specifics, hoping that the rest of us are stupid enough to search a reference to support ObviouslyFullofShit's claim.
Got a cite, asshole? let's see it. Or STFU.
One can not be adjudicated guilty of a crime not charged under law. No charge of insurrection has ever been made against Trump, and no court has found him guilty of such a charge.
Instead, the Supreme Court of Colorado has thrown him from the ballot based on a charge never made and a conviction that never happened.
I think that you need to consider that unless found GUILTY of the criminal charge under law, no court can remove Trump (or any other person's) civil rights, including the right to Run for President. The specific justices within the Supreme Court of Colorado have made a VERY SEVERE ERROR in their actions. The Dissenting Opinion was so very clear and concise and referenced law so well that the majority of the court now will find SCOTUS instantly overturns them.
Here is where things can become fun. Having VIOLATED TRUMPS CIVIL RIGHTS BY REMOVING HIM FROM THE BALLOT ILLEGALLY and in VIOLATION OF LAW, and most possibly in violation of the CONSTITUTION ITSELF, True can sue them individually under RODNEY KING ACT and WIN. Especially if he sues the Colorado Justices in a FLORIDA FEDERAL COURT and guess what, he probably has that right.
What makes you think a criminal conviction is required for Section 3 to apply? It has never been a requirement in the past (a slew of former Confederates were disqualified from office after the 14th Amendment was passed, and apparently none of them were convicted of insurrection), so why would it be a requirement now? Are you suggesting that you have a better understanding of the meaning of the 14th Amendment than Congress and the President did in the 1870s?
You might want to do a little more research...
You are just so desperate for Trump to be tossed from the ballot there, ObviouslySpam. It oozes right from your words on the screen. Take your TDS over to the DailyKos.
Any time you decide to employ an actual argument, go right ahead.
In the meantime, I will assume that the irrelevant, (usually) uncivil outbursts are the very best you and your pals can do.
Well he hasn't been adjudicated as, and I don't misunderstand anything. A riot isn't an insurrection. An insurrection requires an attempt to overthrow the government. A riot is just breaking in and damaging things.
And even if you want to say it was an insurrection, Trump had no part or planning of it. He literally told them while it was happening to stop!
Following a formal hearing, a judge found as a matter of fact that he had "engaged in insurrection", and this was upheld on appeal, so yes it was indeed adjudicated. That's just what the word means.
And no, Trump never personally participated in the riot. I guess it will forever remain a mystery for you!
A biased judge using ridiculous reasoning.
Please, elucidate us on what he did that was insurrection.
Due process. It's all moot until Trump has been convicted of the specific crime of insurrection.
Until then, he's on the ballots and it's up to the voters to keep him from a third run for POTUS.
Famous British law student, SRG2, and Ilya Somin are claiming that somehow due process only counts for matters of life or liberty. So fuck Trump.
The liberty to run for elected office seems pretty high on the list of liberties the Constitution sought to defend.
Run all you want. It's the holding of the office which is potentially barred by the 14th Amendment. That is the Constitution.
Not the president.
"Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
The Supreme Court may decide that issue soon enough.
Yes, and don't expect them to side with the extremely flawed majority decision of the Colorado Supreme Court. I fully expect you to be disappointed though.
I don't care either way. I am curious whether the Supreme Court will stick with originalism, or fake it, or fuck it.
ObviouslyFullofShit is full of shit.
Good, so when they come for your money and your property and your job and anything else they want, TUFF CRAP for you!
Then again, the Founding Fathers Placed the rules in the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. The issue is that each of us have the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to run for any office that we so desire. When convicted of certain crimes, we can no longer hold certain offices within government.
The problem with your belief is that there has been NO SUCH CHARGE against Trump LEGALLY in any JURIS and NOT EVEN AN ARREST. Had there been an arrest, he still does not forfeit Constitutional rights. Interestingly enough, Section 3 enumerates the positions that can be charges with insurrection and lose the right to election. President is NOT ONE OF THOSE POSITIONS that can lose the right to hold office under the clause.
The reason is because there are people like you and like the leftist whackos and democrat criminals that want to abuse our society by having convictions without trials, just like the SS in Nazi Germany. FASCIST.
Good point. Though the chances of his followers accepting a guilty verdict are nill.
Why should they? Just to pander to leftard delusions, lies and fairy-tales (propaganda)? Those that live outside of [WE] gang power-madness require more than just a [Na]tional So[zi]alist religion for a guilty verdict. Throw that evidence out there or just shut the F'Up.
Yeah, that tends to happen when you blatantly politicize the Justice system to go after your political opponents. They'll cut down every law in America to get after the Devil.
Cross that bridge when we get to it.
Despite the hysterical screeching of HnR's Republicans, it's purely a state issue - they can let him run or not. Hopefully the majority of states prevent him or he ends up in jail.
While the latter would make me smile simply because I despise the asshats who defend the buffoon, libertarians should be pushing for more, not less, ballot access.
Bookmarked.
You admit to having no principles because you dislike other people. How quaint.
I admit to schadenfreude while keeping my principles. Bookmark that.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of TDS-addled lefty shit.
Is that actually Chemleft? I should have him muted.
Maybe. The author is #10747.
Never claimed to have the asshole(s) muted, but most often do. When there is a reference to a particulaly idiotic claim, both the lying piles of lefty shit Jeffy and sarc might get a 'look' and the appropriate response.
Never saw a comment worthy of more than "Fuck off and die, lying pile of lefty shit".
Have no idea why anyone here engages their bullshit on a regular basis and thereby encourages the lying piles of lefty shit to continue to post here. We could clean up Roundup to adult conversation by simply ignoring them; scroll down any Roundup and you'll find half of the comments responding to the assholes Jeff, sarc of M4E, all wasted band width.
Respond as to turd:
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
And let it go at that. Engaging such idiocy is a total waste
A non-elected partisan hack interpreting a federal law with blue colored glasses and deciding it means something different to deny Maine voters from the option of casting a vote for someone.
Let the Republicans of Maine decide if they want to vote for Trump in the primary then, if he is the R candidate, let all Mainahs decide in the general election instead of this blueberry republic nonsense.
If the 14th Amendment says he cannot hold the office, it makes no sense for him to appear on the ballot, does it?
The 14th Amendment does not "Donald John Trump is ineligible for the office of President." So there remains a question about how to determine if he's disqualified due to engaging in insurrection.
How about holding a week-long court hearing, at which both sides are represented by counsel and have the power to call witnesses, which is appealable to a higher court?
How about there actually being a goddamn insurrection?
Now you don't want a hearing?
"It's purely a state issue" --- I'd actually support this measure. Go back to when State Governments elected Federal Representatives.
Ironically; The inner-city filthy Demonrats would loose all their [Na]tional power-madness over-night when that happens by almost 2 to 1.
What are you waiting for, exactly?
It would take a repeal of the 17th Amendment ironically enacted by the "populist party" ... "The People's Party, also known as the Populist Party or simply the Populists, was a left-wing[2] agrarian populist[3] political party in the United States in the late 19th century."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(United_States)
Actually, they can't. Per Section 3, only Presidential Electors can be banned, if the Electors themselves were convicted of insurrection or rebellion, not the Presidential candidate.
I think we should wait for the Supreme Court's take on that, don't you?
Well this is dumb even for you. Qualifications for presidency is set by the constitution, not individual states.
Let's just enforce the 14th Amendment, like all the others, shall we?
Congress decides who may enforce the 14th Amendment, and how they may enforce it.
You're begging a question which will likely be before the Supreme Court. Is that your argument?
You realize you can kick off A LOT of people off the ballot for equally spurious reasons if this stands.
Biden is out for allowing an invasion from Mexico. Or for leaving all of those arms to the Taliban. Or his placating of Iran. Wide array of reasons.
And all equally as valid as this.
"You realize you can kick off A LOT of people off the ballot for equally spurious reasons if this stands."
No, you can't. The thing about a court proceeding (and an appellate review) is that if you bring frivolous suits, they largely get laughed out of court. It isn't just "Step 1: file lawsuit, Step 2: disqualify candidate". No matter how often you and your fellow travelers claim it.
Sure you can. You simply have to have a friendly judge or set of judges.
...and the media propaganda mill on your side.
Thanks to Democrats and their championing of democracy over the definition of the USA (US Constitution); the USA has become a [WE] gangsters RULES land instead of Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
There's a BIG reason the left won't stop their Commie-Education camps and keeping their thumbs on the media. Most people are still sheeple minded.
I honestly don't care anymore. Our elections are a joke in the first place, because our electorate is a joke.
The fact that we even had a Trump vs Biden in the first place makes it clear that nobody is taking any of this seriously. And now we're talking about doing it again?
Clown. World.
aye
Good to see Reason can come up with the stirring "can of worms" defense of the Republic while the Democrats are busily torching the greatest constitution in human history.
^THIS^ +1000000000000000.
I'm afraid "the greatest constitution in human history" has been reduced to "Congress has the power to do what is necessary and proper to regulate commerce and promote the general welfare. Mumble mumble free speech and guns."
It's been run over, used for target practice, and left in the bathroom stall before being rewritten in invisible ink that only Ivy League graduates in black robes can see.
True. But it doesn't have to be that way. The people could start electing honorable politicians instead of criminal hacks who promise to steal their neighbors stuff for them.
You forget those who support politicians who promise to steal from this neighbor and give it to that neighbor.
Who should start by giving all their own stuff away since that is their position otherwise they'd be correctly labelled a hypocritical criminal hack.
The typical counterargument is that individual efforts are futile.
The retort is that people organize without government, as in churches and charities.
The typical counterargument is that it's not enough. Government needs to get involved.
The retort is that that's not a just use of force.
On and on it goes.
"The retort is that that’s not a just use of force."
Should be the end of it for anyone who is not a criminal hack.
The very difference between a Government that is there to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice for all versus a Government that is there to commit armed-theft is the very difference between a civil society and a gang-land war (dog-eat-dog).
And anyone has to wonder why the USA is looking more like a gang-land war everyday. It's all the [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] ('armed-theft').
Or straight to the point -----------> 'Guns' don't actually make anything.
And the only path that addresses that fact is slavery.
Once the party of slavery ... Still the party of slavery.
Do you know much about ethics?
As in deontology, utilitarianism, virtuous action and such?
If not I think you'll find it interesting.
Do you think supporting ‘armed-theft’ STEALING is an ethic?
Or maybe you think slavery is an ethic?
I'll take that as a no. There's a bunch written about it. I don't want to post any links. Just google "ethics deontology utilitarianism" and learn a little about what thinkers think about thinking.
Notice how both of those are examples of GAINING what one wants/needs without having to actually *EARN* it in a just system.
The left has NO ethics. It's all about *excuses* to get what they don't want to *EARN* and tear down the halls of justice for criminal acts.
Here's a quote from the interwebs.
"Utilitarianism and deontology are two different moral theories. Regardless of the results of their activities, deontology emphasizes the moral duties and obligations that people have to one another and themselves. Utilitarianism, on the other hand, contends that decisions should be made in a way that maximizes happiness or joy while minimizing pain or suffering."
My guess is you're not a utilitarian.
lol... Funny you think Google should have to tell you what your ethics are while most of us have an innate human-intelligent sense about it when it comes to STEALING versus EARNING.
No. Not at all. These are things people have been pondering for thousands of years. Philosophy and ethics existed long before Google.
Umm... welfare for illegal immigrants which you constantly defend.
You see a problem and the solution is to round up people like cattle.
I see a problem and the solution is to let people fucking work.
I bet you think that all the economic gains of the 19th century were due to protective tariffs, not the influx of able bodies with ideas in the form of immigrants.
Funny they didn't seem to want to work enough to fix their own pasture..... I guess conquering and consuming someone else's greener pasture for the WIN!!!! /s
Know why so many foreigners start businesses? Because their government wouldn't let them do it there. As unfree as this country is, it's still The Land of Opportunity compared to most of the world.
Know why so many foreigners (70%+) vote for the [Na]tional So[zi]alist party? Your "so many" isn't as many as you'd like to deceptively advertise and quite obviously shows they didn't learn a D8mn thing from their past government ideology.
The only ideology they seem to have a majority of is to conquer and consume. But hey; Every individual is specifically different so immigration really doesn't need to just stop existing; it just needs far MORE of a filter applied.
The only ideology they seem to have a majority of is to conquer and consume.
They're just people trying to do right for their families. Really, that's all it is.
They're utilitarians. You're deontological.
Really all it is ... IS trying to legalize armed-theft.
Give it all the names you want. Brush it under the rug as 'all it is' excuses. At the end of the day; it's still just lobbying for armed-theft of others labors because said person (or their entire family) believe they shouldn't have to EARN anything they want and someone else should be their slave. Selfishness and Greed 101.
I don't know "why so many foreigners start businesses" (likely varied reasons that depend on the individual) but I can tell you that I've started and operated businesses in both the United States and in Mexico, and it is much easier by far to start one in Mexico. No comparison. Much less paperwork, hassle, and the government is not on your ass about every stupid thing. No taxes for the first year is nice, too. On the other hand, business in the United States is much more profitable for the obvious reason that the U.S. consumer has a lot more money to spend.
They don't work.
They siphon welfare money. The hotels are full. Shelters are full. They contribute nothing. They're criminal invader leeches who hate everything America stands for and are here to drain us dry the way they did to South and Central America.
Deport them all. Deport their supporters and strip them of US citizenship.
America does not improve by importing bums from shithole countries.
Yes, there should be more, easier immigration for the people who can legally support themselves. The current invasion is NOT that. They're criminals and parasites. They are LITERALLY entering my employer's buildings and harassing and attacking people, while the city shrugs and looks the other way. They're not migrants seeking work -- they are thugs, thieves, and terrorists.
Deportation is merciful. Frankly, at this point, I couldn't be bothered to care if the criminal thug invaders were all rounded up, shot in the street, and dumped in a ditch.
Made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
It's funny how people wanting to use the 14th Amendment to destroy democracy skip Section 1 and don't bother to read all of Section 3.
Section 1: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; Depriving a candidate of the liberty to pursue elected office can't be done on the say-so of a state official, it has to go through the courts.
Section 3: No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who... shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion...
Odd that the Amendment expressly calls out Senators and Representatives, and Presidential Electors (the people who vote in the Electoral College), but not the President. The anti-democracy activists latch onto the "hold any office" bit, but it seems clear the intent of the Amendment did not extend to the office of President itself. Furthermore, states don't elect the President, they only elect Electors who then select the President. If the Electors that Trump picks were convicted of insurrection or rebellion, state election officials could be within their power to ban those Electors. But to say they can ban the person the Electors might vote for strains credibility.
Both decisions that have been handed down on the merits considered these arguments and rejected them. The enumerated positions in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment are the non-office government positions (ex: Senators and Representatives are “members of Congress” which may technically not be considered an office), and the President isn’t listed because it clearly is an office and is referred to as such numerous times throughout the Constitution.
The article above, if you read it in its entirety also addressed the Due Process provision of Section 1; the right to hold public office is not a private right but rather a public privilege, and the states have the power under the original constitution to determine the “Time, Place, and Manner of Elections” (including qualifications of the electors, and implicitly the qualifications of the candidates). There is no rule requiring uniformity among the states, or federal oversight, and throughout most of our history these qualifications were never uniform among the states (ex: women could vote in some states but not others until the 19th Amendment, blacks surely could not run for Congress or President under Jim Crow laws in the South, etc.). Whatsmore, its hard for me to understand how people see these decisions as the result of a denial of due process, Trump was allowed to intervene and be heard and appeal in both of them. The problem is people are viewing his right to candidacy as a personal right, and his loss in these cases as a personal loss, but it’s not and he’s suffered no liability as result of these rulings.
“Let the people decide” is not how our country works. The law does not mean whatever the people think it says or want it to say, rather the law is what the Constitution says, what Congress passes, and what the Executive and Courts which interpret these writings determine them to actually mean. With respect to elections, the right to run for or hold public office, like most rights, is not an absolute right; there are limits. The people have a right to elect only from among *eligible* candidates, as determined by the law and legal processes. They cannot choose others, like a teenager or a naturalized citizen or former two-term President Obama, to serve as the next president even if they would prefer these people to be in the office. That is how rule of law operates; not by whining and complaining and threatening and violence; such acts against the law constitute the insurrection that Trump is involved with that we all keep hearing about and are denying to ourselves is actually happening. Just watch how Trump and his supporters respond when the U.S. Supreme Court upholds these decisions and even remarks that Trump’s cabinet members should have exercised their right and obligation under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from office at the conclusion of January 6, 2021; I expect the insurrection that he leads to turn violent again when they don’t get their way from the law.
A stunning analysis from "Child Pornography 2" here.
Buttplug, you already have an account. Fuck off back to it.
Lawfare 101. Trump wasn't even there so how do you get to pretend he 'engaged' in an insurrection. How do you even come to the conclusion those at the protest were attempting insurrection?
You have nothing but IMAGINATION of crimes that never actually happened. The only crime exists in imaginary leftard propaganda mills. Do you think Hillary committed 'insurrection' when she claimed Russia stole the election? Do you think anyone who is skeptical of an election is committing 'insurrection'?
Complete and utter B.S. all the way around.
Congratulations! You have won the coveted Kamala Harris word salad award for December 29, 2023!
Pot smoking lefties are suddenly “law and order” types.
Wow--both intellectually dishonest and deliberately obtuse. Get fucked.
So CP2 makes a detailed and substantive post and gets five responses from paleocons that are angry, vague, and devoid of substance. Yup, that tracks.
It’s all the response they deserve after the dozens of thoughtful post posted hours before it that already countered all that pablum.
Stupidity (especially gov-'gun' backed) tends to make people who use a brain angry… Go figure…
Those officials, Baude and Paulsen concede, may have different views about what sort of conduct disqualifies a candidate under Section 3. But they say uncertainty about the reach of Section 3 does not absolve officials of the responsibility to enforce it.
So a buck Marine private could just overthrow FJB if he concludes that FJb is disqualified under Section 3.
Are Baude and Paulsen willing to represent such a private if he is prosecuted for mutiny in a general court-martial?
How would the Marine prevent Biden from "holding" the office of the President, exactly? The marine is not a law enforcement officer, and Section 3 is not a criminal statute, so Biden couldn't lawfully be arrested for acting as president.
How cazn militaries ever overthrow governments?
Oh, so you're no longer talking about anyone "enforcing" the 14th Amendment; you're talking about them simply leading a coup. Got it.
If Section 3 is self-executing, then anyone can enforce it however they please.
Let's try this again: How would the Marine prevent Biden from “holding” the office of the President, exactly? The marine is not a law enforcement officer, and Section 3 is not a criminal statute, so Biden couldn’t lawfully be arrested for acting as president.
This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot. On January 6, 2025, Vice President Harris, acting in her role as President of the US Senate, will follow the Trump Administration dictum that a Vice President has the authority to decide which slate of electors to count and she will not count any electors from Red States, thus giving President Biden his re-election win.
"Get out and vote! Democracy is important!"
...
"NOOOOO not for that guy!"
Vote for Obama!
Just read the Jan 6th report. And/or Mueller's report. And/or listen to republicans, including Trump's own hand-picked advisors who have testified against him. Or listen to the Trump-picked judges who thru out baseless election cases. Or listen to our retired Generals and security people who say hee's UNFIT. Or listen to women who he abused, or contractors who worked on his buildings that he never paid. OR SIMPLY OPEN YOUR EYES.
He's a CROOK, a LIAR, and an ABOMINATION of a human being. He suffers from narcissistic personality disorder, the kind of personality that should NEVER be in a position of power, much less the President of the United States.
He should NEVER be on the ballot for President. EVER.
You shouldn't have a problem with him being on a ballot. You should have a problem with the people who vote for someone like that.
Same way you should have a problem with people who vote for a senile old man who can't string together a coherent sentence, has clearly been on the take for years, shakes hands with invisible people, and has put the secret service through more work than all the other president's combined as they diligently defend him from stairs and bags of sand.
I don't care if those people's names are on a ballot. I care about an electorate who looks at those names and says, "That. That is who I choose to represent me."
That's an electorate that deserves to be fed to China, Russia, Iran, BLM, and the LGBT.
"or Mueller’s report."
If you actually had read Mueller's report you wouldn't be claiming the stupid shit you just did, and if you'd actually read the Durham report you'd feel really fucking stupid right now.
Also, the fascists behind the J6 kangaroo court hid exculpatory video evidence from defendants that exonerated them, hid indicting video evidence that showed two of their star police witnesses perjured themselves and were never injured that day, and finally they illegally burned their own records.
I get that you received you're polisci degree at the University of CNN but there must be some limits to your credulity.
[Bill-NM: Long rant...]
But enough about Biden.
Five out of eight of prior disqualifications under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment were through state action. Most recently, in 2022, Couy Griffin of Arizona was disqualified for his role in the January 6th insurrection. Congress’s only role in Section 3 is removing disqualification by means of a 2/3rds vote of both houses. Trump can certainly ask Congress to exercise its power to remove disqualification. The most important thing to remember about this amendment, though, is that the offense isn’t against the US government. It’s based on insurrection or rebellion against the US Constitution. Among other things, Trump violated the Executive Vesting Clause of the US Constitution by attempting to remain in office beyond the 4 years for which he was elected in 2016.
No, he did not.
Do you remember the inauguration on January 20, wherein Trump was present and welcomed Biden to the White House? When he did resist the transfer of power
Trump was not present at Biden's inauguration (add "https:"):
//www.npr.org/2021/01/20/958905703/for-1st-time-in-150-years-outgoing-president-doesnt-attend-inauguration
Democrats lie to us; Republicans lie to themselves.
Section 5 gives Congress the *non-exclusive* power to pass legislation. Without that authority, only the states could enforce these constitutional provisions (sections 1-4). If and when Congress acts on that new authority, federal law of course pre-empts any state law or decision to the contrary. But if as here, Congress has not acted, it doesn't mean these constitutional provisions are legally unenforceable as proponents of this interpretation are advocating, which would be an awful situation! Rather, it means states are free to pass legislation to fill the void left by Congress. In the absence of legislation at both the state and federal level, officials and courts at all levels must interpret the constitutional provisions directly, and that's exactly what is happening here.
It's also important to note that any judge or officer permitting Trump to knowingly remain on the ballot after being clearly determined by that judge or official or any binding authority on that officer to be in violation of Section 3, could themselves be found to be providing aid or comfort to the insurrectionist by doing so. So I really expect most authorities to be extremely conservative in this matter and choose to prohibit him from the ballot if they find any possibility that he is disqualified as such. Which makes it unlikely to me that the U.S. Supreme Court will restore Trump's eligibility to run.
Everyone thinks they are a lawyer now.
Brandon, in his withdrawal from Afghanistan, left behind weapons and equipment to the Taliban.
That's aid and comfort to the enemy!
Rather, it means states are free to pass legislation to fill the void left by Congress.
States are not free to pass legislation that deprives citizens of their constitutional rights without due process.
Trump was neither charged nor convicted of "treason" or "insurrection"; he had no opportunity to defend himself in a court of law or call witnesses.
Trump has no charges to defend himself from, and he has no constitutional right at issue. He’s seeking a public benefit (ballot access, public office) and being found ineligible for it. He can dispute the reasoning for that denial as far as the administrative and judicial appeal process allows, but that’s the extent of due process anyone is allowed here.
It’s not a very different situation from when they suspend your vehicle registration for doing something wrong like getting too many traffic tickets. Depending on the state law, your rights to appeal the action may vary, and if and when you will get the registration restored also may vary. In some cases, you can’t ever get it back (for example, in New York, 5 or more convictions related to drunk or drugged driving results in a lifetime revocation of the driver license and all vehicle registrations).
"deprives citizens of their constitutional rights without due process."
He had due process. There was not only a court decision, there was an appeal.
"he had no opportunity to defend himself in a court of law or call witnesses."
Yes, he absolutely did have that opportunity. He chose not to dispute anything in the Colorado case. There is a huge difference between not having an opportunity and choosing not to use the opportunity they have.
Who Decides Whether Trump Can Run, and What Sort of Evidence Suffices?
SCOTUS.
Next?
Only if they agree to hear the case. They don't have to. And they can decide when too. They'd be doing Trump a favor by declining to review the case at this time. My bet is they'd like to decide the issue after Trump loses the election, if at all.
https://groups.google.com/g/Talk.Politics.Guns/c/kfls9ZFHDao/m/0Wlp-3L2AAAJ
"Maine joined Colorado in barring from its GOP primary ballot yesterday, as Maine Secretary of State Shenna Bellows (D) decided that she “had no choice.” She had no choice because she is a rapid partisan Leftist who, like many Democratic operatives in various positions of power within the legal establishment, she is determined that President Biden be rescued from his election peril by any means necessary. Trump’s actions before and during the January 6, 2021, riot in the U.S. Capitol do not justify charging him with inciting a riot, much less an “insurrection” that would trigger Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Maine’s completely partisan and anti-democratic move is sure to be appealed along with Colorado Supreme Court’s finding last week that Trump could not appear on the ballot in that state under the 14th Amendment provision designed to keep members of the Confederacy that prevents insurrectionists from holding office. The U.S. Supreme Court will review the case, one hopes quickly, and had better resolve the issue of whether Trump can run again or if the nation will be thrown into Constitutional chaos by allowing some states to block him.
SCOTUS could, if John Roberts is overcome with one of his weenie attacks, decide the case narrowly without getting to the merits of the NeverTrump 14th Amendment Big Lie. Because it is a Big Lie, one of many that the Left has tried to use to bring down Trump before, while he was President and ever since, that it has reached this stage is horrifying, and I say that as someone who profoundly hopes for some legal and fair way to take Trump out of the 2024 election. This isn’t it. Like the two impeachments and the unethical Nancy Pelosi-Liz Cheney January 6 Star Chamber in the House, the Maine and Colorado actions are far more serious attacks on the nation’s democacy than the stupid, futile, January 6 rioting.
Jonathan Turley outlined as clearly as anyone has why the Section 3 application to Trump is untenable and dangerous. There are two main reasons. The first is that the 14th Amendment, like the Emoluments Clause that the Axis [the “resistance,” Democrats and the media] dredged out of the dead letter pond in one of its potential impeachment theories, is a narrow and archaic provision that has never been used except in the specific instances it was designed for: when former members of the Confederacy wanted to run for office after the Civil War. The second is that there was no insurrection in 2021, and so Trump cannot be labeled an insurrectionist.
The apparently officially-sanctioned Democratic Party talking point is that since Section 3 of the 14th requires no official finding that an individual is an insurrectionist, there is no Due Process breach to disqualify Trump without any trial on the question. In other words, the Axis thinks that its simply calling the Capitol riot an insurrection repeatedly makes it an insurrection. That’s a Big Lie purveyor’s dream: repeat it enough, and it’s true. When he 14th Amendment was passed, there was no crime of “insurrection,” and no definition of it in the Constitution. There didn’t need to be, because a civil war is by definition an insurrection, and that’s what Section 3 was about: the Civil War just completed. Congress made rebellion and/or insurrection a federal crime with 18 USC 2383 in 1948, so now there is something other than the Civil War to use to trigger Section 3. Trump, however, hasn’t been charged with violating 18 USC 2383, because he didn’t, and no prosecutor, even Jack Smith, Trump’s own personal Javert, is foolish enough to charge him. (I would view doing so as an ethics violation justifying bar sanctions.) The Democrats who desperately want to stop American from having the chance to vote for Trump have decided he is an insurrectionist because they have been saying so for three years. That’s it. That’s their case.
If the Colorado and Maine ruling stands, it will create a situation in which any politician who is sufficiently unpopular and controversial could be banned from the ballots of states with an unethical and partisan Supreme Court. As others have noted, the concerted efforts to use extralegal means to undermine Trump’s Presidency was far closer to an insurrection than the actions of the drunken mob on January 6, 2021.
It profoundly depressed me to read Scalia Law School’s Ilya Somin‘s support for the bogus insurrection theory. He’s a constitutional scholar, but now heads my Bias Makes You Stupid victims list. Somin’s argument is tortured at best, and he never makes a convincing case that the Capitol riot qualifies as an insurrection. A Harvard study found that most of the January 6 rioters were not trying to overthrow the government, but to express their anger and disapproval over what they felt was an unfair election and to support President Trump, whom they believed was the victim of it.
Of course, that’s a study from an institution that is itself lacking in integrity and trustworthiness…
Once the dangerous Section 3 conspiracy is derailed for good by the Supreme Court (and in stating it this way I am channeling the Hickory high school basketball coach played by Gene Hackman in “Hoosiers,” when he tells a shaky sub at a crucial point in a must-win game, “After Ollie makes his free throw—and you WILL make your second free throw—“), the American public is likely to be faced with a terrible choice: vote for a vengeance-obsessed man who has proven himself untrustworthy and unstable as a crucial symbolic vote against the Democratic Party that has demonstrated hostility to the Constitution and the rule of law, or vote for a mentally-collapsing President whose first term has been a disaster across the board and his political party that is now hostile to both the Constitution and core American values.
It’s a crummy choice, but voters have a right to make it, and only one party is trying to take the right away. I think that by itself makes the responsible choice clear."- Jack Marshall
When someone has a victim mentality, they need an oppressor to blame.
I have decided that I hope Biden wins with 100% of the vote, to prove that American democracy has been fortified and saved.
Just so you know, based on the same rationale as trumps "involvement" in an insurrection, Biden can be disqualified based on his involvement in official Ukraine corruption.
seriously. any "judge" can literally just reason that "anything President X did that i dont like is 'giving aid and comfort' to the enemies of america" and then and disqualify him from a ballot.
These are interesting times.
I don’t think the, “I don’t like” part of his decision would be upheld on appeal if that’s all there was to it. The action adjudged needs to meet the legal standards of the governing provision and be supported by the evidence. On appeals, other judges also have agree with that decision. At the end of the day, however, the judges do get the final word, so beware!
For example, it took at over 70 years before the “separate but equal” interpretation of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment which dominated the South after the reconstruction era began to fall apart. A new generation of lawyers and judges (which now included black lawyers) had a very different opinion of how valid that precedent really was. The doctrine itself was actually introduced in a case involving rail cars, which is a far cry from public schools and parks and hospitals and … everything else!
Just so you know, based on the same rationale as trumps “involvement” in an insurrection, Biden can be disqualified based on his involvement in official Ukraine corruption.
I wonder when people will defend Trump based on his actions rather than by referencing something they say a Democrat did.
When Democrats don't exercise political double standards for their side.
Maybe it is only a double standard to you because you don't like the way your side is affected. I don't see any equivalent actions by any Democrats in my lifetime that compares to what Trump and his supporters did regarding the 2020 election. None at all.
That's because you're a leftist.
Baude and Paulsen write. "It is a public privilege, a public trust, to be vested with the power of the people. And though it is a closer case, the same thing may be true even for those who already hold office at the moment that Section Three disqualifies them. Due process protects private vested rights from public deprivation. It does not protect public rights."
There IS no such thing as a public right! There are only personal rights. Each person has all of those rights unless one or more of those rights has been denied after due process. This is the kind of twisting of legal and Constitutional concepts that got us into this trouble in the first place. Step by step the social democrats have strayed from the limitations on government power specified by the Constitution through legislation, creation of regulatory agencies, executive orders and judicial misconduct, abandonment of responsibility and legislation from the bench. Now, when their agenda has been almost completely implemented; now, when it is almost impossible to oppose further impositions without violating one or more of their vague and unconstitutionally broad laws and regulations; now, when all resistance is chargeable by partisan prosecutors anywhere in the United States after partisan investigations without probable cause with fraudulent evidence and false affidavits by weaponized officials; now, when the sleeping tiger of opposition has finally awakened we find them to be ready followers of outrageous demagogues. Bring it on!
If it helps, another way of looking at "public rights" would be to simply not call them "rights".
.he has not been charged with insurrection, let alone convicted of that offense
Even if there was some jury in DC who "convicted" him of such a thing, it would be a political sham, nothing more. "convicted" means nothing at this point when it comes to this.
What are the implications of your statement here? Are you saying that there is no fair jury of his peers to objectively evaluate evidence of the crimes he is accused of?
Not in DC.
No crime is involved here. Disqualification is a civil matter.
Right to vote, as well as the related right to run for public office, is not a federal constitutional right either. Not even a federal question for that matter. I know these facts may sound surprising and outlandish, but the federal constitution does not discuss these matters at all. Suffrage and elections are therefore generally a state matter entirely. The federal constitution, through the 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th Amendments, has imposed some restrictions on how the states through their laws may deny the right to vote (race, previous condition of servitude, sex, poll tax, and minimum age, respectively). That’s it! States are otherwise free even today to set their own requirements and qualifications as to who can vote and who can be a candidate, including for federal candidates. Finally U.S. Supreme Court review of a state’s highest court decision is generally limited to consideration of U.S. constitutional rights only.
No, it's more than that. "Insurrection" if it is a crime at all, would be a federal crime in this context since running for President is regulated by the Constitution of the United States and any Federal laws spelling out those regulations. A District of Columbia jury would not have the authority under the Constitution to find Trump guilty of insurrection under Federal law. Likewise any State of the Union, although state law has some authority over elections as long as that authority is not unconstitutional on its face or exercised in an unconstitutional way. Additionally, a declaration that a candidate for President of the United States would be ineligible to hold that office would have to come from a Federal judge.
All nine SCOTUS justices should be able to agree that under Brandenburg Trump's speech is protected by the First Amendment. He was not inciting imminent lawless action on January 6, because his exhortation to fight like hell is commonplace political rhetoric, and he explicitly asked for a peaceful and patriotic protest. Prior intemperate speech, was likewise protected, and in any case cannot be aggregated to cobble together an unprotected statement, not least because those statements were not all made to the same audience.
Free speech does not mean one is not responsible for the consequences of their free speech. You tell someone to go murder someone, and they do it, don’t think you can write off your personal liability for that incident by raising a free speech defense!
These are the facts: 1) Trump invited the crowd to DC on January 6, 2021. Most likely would not have been there otherwise.
2) Trump sent his rally to the U.S. Capitol with a stated goal or mission — to coerce the Vice President to act in a certain way.
3) Trump was aware of that the people started doing at the building and had become violent, but took hours until he asked them stop and go home.
4) As President, Trump also had the power and responsibility to stop the riot and restore law and order at the U.S. Capitol, an important federal building in the seat of the government, but he also failed to do so until late in the day.
5) In the months after the election and preceding January 6, Trump engaged in a variety of schemes aimed at denying and altering the election results.
Any of those steps alone probably doesn’t constitute an insurrection. However, taken together, it does seem more likely than not that Trump engaged in an insurrection.
Furthermore, I posit that the insurrection isn’t over. While it has remained mostly peaceful since that date, Trump continues to falsely claim he won the election, and he and his followers have been verbally attacking and threatening members of Congress, judges and court staff, federal and state prosecutors, and other state officials. The pattern here is a sustained attempt to attack our existing government and assert his will upon it. Is there any doubt that if Trump called for another riot, for example against the U.S. Supreme Court for upholding decisions against him, that his followers would again act with force according to his general directions? Sounds like he is also still an insurrectionist!
Parody?
Has to be.
>You tell someone to go murder someone, and they do it, don’t think you can write off your personal liability for that incident by raising a free speech defense!
Except . . . you can. The 'incitement' exception to the 1st is exceedingly narrow. The best you could do here is paint this as a conspiracy to commit murder.
But simply telling some random stranger to throw momma from the train doesn't make you complicit in their crime if they then go and do it.
In Trump's case, he also not just some stranger. He's President of the United States asking you to go throw Mamma from the Train. As a powerful government official, that makes him even more responsible for the consequences of his speech.
Please provide the quote from the President telling constituents to throw momma from the train.
And more importantly, show me the act of momma being thrown from the train, and a single person convicted of throwing momma from the train.
If all you can do is show people being convicted of toilet-papering mommas front yard tree and taking her lawn ornaments, that's a far cry from throwing momma from the train.
There have been criminal convictions of the people who stormed the Capitol seeking to disrupt Congressional proceedings with force. That was a failed attempt at throwing mamma from the train in this analogy, but it doesn't have to be a successful attack in order to impose sanctions on those responsible for making it happen.
Disagree. They have NOT been convicted of “insurrection.” They have been convicted of the criminal equivalent of rioting and damage to property. In some cases there may have been charges of assault and battery on law enforcement officers. Unless you’re prepared to accept convictions of BLM and Antifa rioters for destruction of government property and assaulting law enforcement officers as "insurrection," your bias is pretty obvious.
https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-capitol-rioters-jailed-sentences-january-6-1826075
"Obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, seditious conspiracy, interfering with law enforcement officers during a civil disorder, disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building, assaulting a federal officer with a deadly or dangerous weapon, and assaulting a police officer."
Free speech does not mean one is not responsible for the consequences of their free speech.
Which is why there was nothing wrong with what DeSantis did to Disney.
>Letting state officials determine whether a candidate has "engaged in insurrection" opens a huge can of worms.
So we should federalize the elections?
I don’t see any can of worms. A honorable, reputable person, like we usually have, should not have a problem qualifying as a candidate under most or usually all of the legal definitions of “engaged in insurrection” or “natural born citizen” or “office” that the various states may come up with, if a challenge is even filed against them in the first place.
The worst thing you could do is put the federal government in charge of its own elections. Having multiple, independent sovereign authorities in charge of elections is an extremely valuable safeguard!
Here's a question for you. Let's say Trump is banned from state ballots. So people vote for him as a write-in candidate and he wins. Then what? The state refuses to recognize his electors? That would make the Georgia charges against Trump look like amateur hour.
He doesn’t win even if he wins. He is ineligible under the law. The votes are invalid. Same thing if Barack Obama wins a 3rd term or naturalized citizen Arnold Schwarzenegger wins or someone under age 35 wins. The fact is, the electors are responsible to vote for an eligible candidate if they want their vote to count.
The state elections would be challenged in Federal court while "alternative" elector slates from each state would be taken to Congress for a vote. Whoever happened to be in charge of the Congress at that time would have a wide scope to accept or deny the Electoral College tally - just like the last election that Trump lost - and the whole thing would spiral out of control - just like the last election did, only worse! You can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. Colorado and Maine are only pouring fuel on the fire now and it is no longer a legal or Constitutional issue but, rather, a culture wars emotional struggle.
Trump can't run.
He's a flabby, lazy, over-the-hill asshole who can barely wheeze his way to a golf cart.
He also won't win.
Just not enough slack-jawed bigots left in America to give him another chance at a three-cushion trick shot at the Electoral College.
This is the same guy who predicted Biden would pack the Supreme Court.
Sec. 3 doesn't require a conviction, and the history of Sec. 3 shows it doesn't require a conviction. Further, our system has always left these decisions up to state officials. There is no federal mechanism for enforcing disqualifications imposed by the Constitution. If someone under age or not born a U.S. citizen were to try and run for office, it would be up to the elections officials of the several states to bar him from the ballot.
There is a lot of irony in supporters of the self-made Birther-in-Chief complaining about state officials doing their job of determining who may be on a ballot when Birthers tried to keep Obama off of ballots by appealing to those same state offices.
As for due process: in Colorado there was a five day fact-finding hearing, following which the judge made a factual determination Trump engaged in insurrection based on the evidence presented in an adversarial hearing. That's due process. In Maine, the law puts that power in the Secretary of State, and, following an investigation and review of the evidence, she made the determination. The courts will review her decision, and Trump will be able to contest her decisions in court. That, too, is due process.
I’m sure you can cite examples of a state official barring a candidate from appearing on a ballot for federal elective office under Section 3, without a conviction on an insurrection-related offense, to back up your contention that “the history of Sec. 3 shows it doesn’t require a conviction”. I’ll be waiting with minnows on my breath…
All of the Confederates who barred from office under Section 3 were never even charged with any crimes. That's the history.
So what authority declared them to be insurrectionists?
Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), which backed one of these challenges, did research on that subject and published an investigative report on what they found: https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/past-14th-amendment-disqualifications/
From what I see posted there, most were either disqualified through a state court action, or by being refused to assume the office or position after they had won the election. The authority to do so in all cases, then as now, is Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, as the Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
Although I think the Fourteenth Amendment is quite clear about how it is to be enforced, I will leave that discussion to those better qualified in Constitutional law. What does interest me is the question of how many of the quoted "experts" who argue for an expansive definition for both "insurrection", and the delegation of authority to enforce that Amendment, would have the intellectual integrity to voice the same opinions in regard to Joe Biden, should a case be made that in the exercise of his Presidential authority, he had, on at least one occasion, abused that authority by indulging in obstruction of the conduct of lawful Federal government business in such a way as to meet the expanded definition of "insurrection"? I think that such a case could plausibly be made on several counts, and I'm convinced that most, if not all, of those outspoken "experts" would be silently cowering in the shadows.
You can file your challenge to Joe Biden's re-election candidacy with the evidence and find out if the officials and judges responsible for deciding these matters agree with you. That is the process.
The insurrection happened on Jan. 6 because they didn't want a process that involved officials and judges deciding whether the election was legitimate. Courts with rules of evidence, that can and will sanction lawyers that make claims that they knew or should have known to be false, weren't accepting the legal arguments from Trump's lawyers or those aligned with him.* Jan. 6 was their last stand, and it was clear that they weren't going to have the votes in Congress to reject any state's certified electoral votes. Thus, they hoped and planned for Mike Pence to unilaterally act to reject enough to deny Biden a majority, where they then hoped that Republican state legislatures would simply declare that Trump won their states.
With no real hope that following the law and process in Congress on Jan. 6 would lead to the desired result, storming the building and stopping it physically was the only way to keep their Trumpy Bear in office. (This is why it was an insurrection.)
*By the way, the frequent argument that the cases were dismissed on technicalities rather than after evaluating fraud claims is specious. I don't think any of the cases actually alleged fraud as their cause of action. They were arguing that processes "could have" allowed fraud. I remember Rudy actually saying "this isn't a fraud case" in the one he argued in Pennsylvania. Some lawsuits were withdrawn when they were offered a hearing to present their evidence of fraud.
Wouldn't at least one person need to have been convicted of insurrection for there to have been an insurrection?
No, you're missing one of the main points of the article and this issue. Disqualification is a civil matter, and the standatd of proof is less.
So, we CAN disqualify Joe Biden for his involvement in official corruption in Ukraine.
Even if that was true and you have proof, how is that an insurrection against the United States or giving aid or comfort to its enemies? Ukraine is not an enemy of the United States.
I asked about constantly cringing up Biden in reply higher in this thread. It is very telling that people go to whataboutism so easily and quickly when trying to defend Trump. At some level, they know that Trump is indefensible.
Why do we have to convict someone of insurrection to call it an insurrection? I don’t think many, if any Confederates were convicted of rebellion or insurrection. We still say that it was a rebellion though.
You’re just looking for reasons not to call it what it clearly was. As I already said, and as legal experts have said such as those quoted in this article, those that entered the Capitol by violently overwhelming the police were trying to stop the.certification of Biden’s victory. Violence was the only path to keeping Trump in power at that point. If you won’t call that an insurrection, then you are defining it so narrowly only because you don’t want to admit that it was.
And fraud. Violence and fraud.
How does that make it an insurrection? They petitioned congress for a redress of grievances (yes some people were violent and should be punished for it). They were rejected. The system worked.
I'd like to know exactly how you define "insurrection" to come to the conclusion you do.
I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how the Supreme Court views the 14th Amendment in this context, but how "expansive" does the definition of "insurrection" have to be to include an oath-taker trying to steal an election?
Limiting the prohibition only to persons who had personally engaged in a Civil War seems rather narrow to me, and possibly not worthy of amending the Constitution to include it. But the Supreme Court would be within its power to decide, "there's nothing to see here, move along".
This could be a critical moment for the Court, and for originalism.
Why stop at Trump. The constitution allows any state to bar anyone from running as long as the reasons are not barred by the Amendments around voting. The lack of enforcement of our borders or hell our currency would be fine grounds for not allowing a current incumbent from being on the ballot.
The unintended consequences of States kicking Trump off ballots could led a rapid decentralization of power in the US..something with a Federal Govt too big and too powerful is much needed.
You can write your state legislature representatives asking them to propose a one-term limit on the election of presidents. I don't see any constitutional reason preventing them from doing that, but I can almost bet it has 0% chance of even being introduced in any state.
If you accept that these are people who actually tried to steal an election, if given the chance they're hardly going to refrain from corrupting other aspects of the system up to and including "terminating the Constitution". The ends justify the means.
Only Trump decides whether Trump can run. 14A only deals with holding office ... not running.
The question whether states can keep Trump off the ballot probably has at least 2 answers from each of the 50 states: primary "ballot" inclusion, and election ballot listings.
Section 3 of 14A includes the only clear way to resolve this alleged problem: Congress can lift the insurrectionism ban on Trump at any time. The silence coming from Congress is probably a good basis for voters to decide whether they want to keep their members in office in 2024.
Hypothetical question: What should people do if an election actually is stolen through fraud and congress shows no sign of doing anything about it?
Someone may have pointed out that Secretaries of State have been determining the qualifications of Presidential candidates for two centuries.
Among them, the 35 year age requirement is easy to confirm without a certified birth certificate, but the “natural born” requirement has occasionally been debatable, though each state officer quickly defer to a majority of other state officers. In the case of John McCain, any credible investigation would have established that he was NOT born in the United States, nor any land leased by the United States, nor any hospital specified by military birthing services. Many Secretaries of State knew this, but certified his qualification anyway. Most federal officials knew this, but felt sorry for McCain or just didn’t want to bear the distress of the entire GOP hierarchy.
Anyway, in the Trump case, it isn’t necessary that Trump actually “engaged” in an insurrection, since there is an “OR” clause which merely cites “… given aid and comfort to the enemies [of the Constitution].” It was clearly Trump’s intent (and particularly Giuliani’s speeches) to encourage and support those in the crowd who wanted to stop the legal tabulation of the electoral votes.
That seems to me more than enough to disqualify Trump.
There is precious littel seriousness in any of these responses.
Put Trump on the ballot and every vote for him is someone saying 'it is not unconstitional to have him on the ballot"
Turn your gaze to Hunter being TWICE in contempt of Congress and ask why you think these are different ?
found the fed
People blaming MAGA chuds, rednecks, Mormons etc. Biden recently blamed the MSM press for not reporting on the economy being good.
The Soros groomers are out to get kids. We had one admit that age of consent between an adult gay male and a “mature for his age” 14 year old boy would be ok. Another Soros supporter here posted a link to child pornography here. Reason nuked that entire comment section. Do you think the children in those links were not victims?
Treason against leftism is loyalty to humanity.
Maybe you should ask your ally Alden Bunag about it.
Teachers have huge sexual abuse problems, but you seem okay with it.
One of the Soros supporters, as typed in the previous post. We aren’t talking about Patrick Wojahn, that Democratic Party mayor in a blue state that was Buttgieg’s protege.
I have contempt for the pope that intimidated he didn’t do enough to investigate and remove a bad priest when he was a bishop. But your statement is whataboutism - you had brought up Soros and I added that one of the Soros backers here opposes age of consent and another posted links to cp.
I applaud you for agreeing that the Soros supporter here that posted the link to cp should be caught and punished.
Why the name change?
"Catholicism, Islam, Mormonism, Southern baptists all have huge sex abuse problems. Where’s the outrage by you folks against them? It’s because you don’t care about kids(most of you losers don’t nor will ever have kids) it’s just an excuse to hate on gays and trans."
Schools have the problem multiple times worse.
Just sayin'.
You want people that disagree with and peacefully protest to be shot and killed by a law enforcement officer?
You have risen to the top of the most assholic of those who post here.
May you get fucked with a rusty running chainsaw while the audience recognizes your deservance of same.
Not as much as we will when you end up like Joseph Rosenbaum.
If you don't, why would you assume to be worthy of engagement here.
We get plenty of lefty imbeciles here; care to tell us why we should assume otherwise of you?
"Teachers have huge sexual abuse problems, but you seem okay with it."
Gonna ask for a cite and why it matters.
"I was referring to treason against the United States of America."
TDS-addled shit, when you find such, let us know.
LOL, please, your side doesn't even like this country.
But do tell us how "you're" going to "completely annihilate" the people who resist your dumb globohomo masters.
"You got clowned, just take the L like a man and move on."
From the lefty shit clown. Did you have a point, TDS-addled shit pile?
You didn’t clown shit.
LOL, no, he was a progressive.
You mean like gay couple William and Zachary Zulak, who pimped out small children?
Alden Bunag was a gay teacher, incidentally. LOL.
More to the point, why does "Lynn" have the same prose tics as chemtard radical deathfat?
Don’t think Lynn aka Kill All Rednecks is a sock for Jeff.
Some time ago, maybe a year or so, he had an emotional meltdown where he grostulated over the death of some guy that a commenter knew. Just recall folks calling him out for being a piece of shit and he slithered away.
LOL, Army soldiers are complaining about doing PT these days. Your side isn't ready for a card game of "War," much less the real thing.
You sound like you're ready for another box of Twinkies, though.
Absolutely will happen.
That does not rise to the use of deadly force.
Um, she was surrounded by Capitol Police at the time who did not deem her a threat in any way, shape, or form. She also appeared, on the video, to be trying to stop another person (who was never charged with a damn thing by the way) from breaking that door/window.
So, what was that about playing stupid games, Lynn?
Or the thousands of left-wing teachers and homosexual men who did it.
Why do you assume Catholic priests and Boyscout leaders are conservative? I've met many of both who were definitely liberals.
His Twatter profile said he was a socialist high school teacher, and complained about "right wingers" saying that gay men all wanted to groom kids.
Of course, this is the standard left-winger playing dumb when their dialectic is falling apart.
He is/was a self described socialist.
https://www.tagaloglang.com/alden-bunag/
He is/was a self described socialist.
"Lynn" knows this, of course--the hilarious part is that the dude's politics and arrest are easily located. I'm sure Lynn "did a little digging"--probably deep in his colon where he pulled it out of his ass.
Thanks for conceding the point, faggot.
It was an organization that didn't allow open (i.e. out of the closet) gays. Take your bigotry elsewhere, Lynn.
Thanks for admitting it was mostly homosexual men.
Check mate.
They didn’t allow gays.
Sorry that doesn’t fit your gay-bashing narrative.
Scout leaders who molested boys aren't heterosexual.
Sorry that doesn't fit your conservative-bashing narrative.
Right. Keep dreaming, KAR.
LOL, yeah, how did that work out in Afghanistan? Your side can't even keep a bunch of goat herders in line, what are you going to do with right-wingers with actual military experience?
Nah, it's far more likely you end up like Julius Rosenberg.
This is the smartest thing you ever posted, dickhead.