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Free Speech

Substackers Battle Over Banning Nazis

Some Substack writers are pressuring the platform to change its moderation policies. Others are urging Substack not to listen.

Elizabeth Nolan Brown | 12.21.2023 7:30 AM

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caution: nazis | Illustration: Lex Villena (edited)
(Illustration: Lex Villena (edited) )

Once again, we're debating about "platforming Nazis," following the publication of an article in The Atlantic titled "Substack Has a Nazi Problem" and a campaign by some Substack writers to see some offensive accounts given the boot. And once again, the side calling for more content suppression is short-sighted and wrong. 

This is far from the first time we've been here. It seems every big social media platform has been pressured to ban bigoted or otherwise offensive accounts. And Substack—everyone's favorite platform for pretending like it's 2005 and we're all bloggers again—has already come under fire multiple times for its moderation policies (or lack thereof).

Substack vs. Social Media  

Substack differs from blogging systems of yore in some key ways: It's set up primarily for emailed content (largely newsletters but also podcasts and videos), it has paid some writers directly at times, and it provides an easy way for any creator to monetize content by soliciting fees directly from their audience rather than running ads. But it's similar to predecessors like WordPress and Blogger in some key ways, also—and more similar to such platforms than to social media sites such as Instagram or X (formerly Twitter). For instance, unlike on algorithm-driven social media platforms, Substack readers opt into receiving posts from specific creators, are guaranteed to get emailed those posts, and will not receive random content to which they didn't subscribe.

Substack is also similar to old-school blogging platforms in that it's less heavy-handed with moderation. On the likes of Facebook, X, and other social media platforms, there are tons of rules about what kinds of things you are and aren't allowed to post and elaborate systems for reporting and moderating possibly verboten content. 

Substack has some rules, but they're pretty broad—nothing illegal, no inciting violence, no plagiarism, no spam, and no porn (nonpornographic nudity is OK, however).

Substack's somewhat more laissez faire attitude toward moderation irks people who think every tech company should be in the business of deciding which viewpoints are worth hearing, which businesses should exist, and which groups should be allowed to speak online. To this censorial crew, tech companies shouldn't be neutral providers of services like web hosting, newsletter management, or payment processing. Rather, they must evaluate the moral worth of every single customer or user and deny services to those found lacking.

Nazis, Nazis, Everywhere

Uh, pretty easy just not to do business with Nazis, some might say. Which is actually… not true. At least not in 2023. Because while the term "Nazi" might have a fixed historical meaning, it's bandied about pretty broadly these days. It gets used to describe people who (thankfully) aren't actually antisemitic or advocating for any sort of ethnic cleansing. Donald Trump and his supporters get called Nazis. The folks at Planned Parenthood get called Nazis. People who don't support Israel get called Nazis. All sorts of people get called Nazis for all sorts of reasons. Are tech companies supposed to bar all these people? And how much time should they put into investigating whether people are actual Nazis or just, like, Nazis by hyperbole? In the end, "not doing business with Nazis" would require a significant time investment and a lot of subjective judgment calls. 

Uh, pretty easy just not to do business with people who might be mistaken for Nazis, some might counter. Perhaps. In theory. But in practice, we again run into the fact that the term is ridiculously overused. In practice, it would be more like "not doing business with anyone who anyone describes as a Nazi"—a much wider group—or devoting a lot of the business to content moderation. 

OK, but you can have toxic views even if you're not literally a Nazi. Of course. But you have to admit that what we're talking about now is no longer "doing business with Nazis." It's about doing business with anyone who holds bigoted views, offensive views, views that aren't progressive, etc. That's a much, much wider pool of people, requiring many more borderline judgment calls. 

This doesn't stop at Nazis, the Nazi-adjacent, and those with genuinely horrific ideas. Again, we're going to run into the fact that sometimes people stating relatively commonplace viewpoints—that we need to deport more immigrants, for example, or that Israel shouldn't exist, or that sex-selective abortions should be allowed, or whatever—are going to get looped in. Even if you abhor these viewpoints, they hardly seem like the kind of thing that shouldn't be allowed to exist on popular platforms.

Slippery Slopes and Streisand Effects 

Maybe you disagree with me here. Maybe you think anyone with even remotely bad opinions (as judged by you) should be banned. That's an all too common position, frankly.

In Substack's case, some of the "Nazis" in question really may be—or at least revere—actual Nazis. "At least 16 of the newsletters that I reviewed have overt Nazi symbols, including the swastika and the sonnenrad, in their logos or in prominent graphics," Jonathan M. Katz wrote in The Atlantic last month. 

But you needn't have sympathy for Nazis and other bigots to find restricting speech bad policy. 

Here's the thing: Once you start saying tech companies must make judgment calls based not just on countering illegal content but also on countering Bad Content, it opens the door to wanna-be censors of all sorts. Just look at how every time a social media platform expands its content moderation purview, a lot of the same folks who pushed for it—or at least those on the same side as those who pushed for it—wind up caught in its dragnet. Anything related to sex work will be one of the first targets, followed quickly by LGBT issues. Probably also anyone with not-so-nice opinions of cops. Those advocating ways around abortion bans. And so on. It's been all too easy for the enemies of equality, social justice, and criminal justice reform to frame all of these things as harmful or dangerous. And once a tech company has caved to being the safety and morality arbiter generally, it's a lot easier for them to get involved again and again for lighter and lighter reasons. 

Here's the other thing: Nazis don't magically become not-Nazis just because their content gets restricted or they get kicked off a particular platform. They simply congregate in private messaging groups or more remote corners of the internet instead. This makes it more difficult to keep tabs on them and to counter them. Getting kicked off platform after platform can also embolden those espousing these ideologies and their supporters, lending credence to their mythologies about being brave and persecuted truth-tellers and perhaps strengthening affinity among those otherwise loosely engaged. 

There's also the "Streisand effect" (so named after Barbra Streisand's attempt to suppress a picture of the cliffside outside her house only drew enormous attention to a picture that would otherwise have been little seen). The fact that Nazi accounts may exist on Substack doesn't mean many people are reading them, nor does it mean that non-Nazis are being exposed to them. You know what is exposing us—and, alas, perhaps some sympathetic types, too—to these newsletters? The Atlantic article and the Substackers Against Nazis group continuing to draw attention to these accounts. 

Substack's Ethos 

In their open letter, Substackers Against Nazis don't explicitly call for any particular accounts to be banned. They're just "asking a very simple question…:Why are you platforming and monetizing Nazis?" But the implication of the letter is that Substack should change its policy or the writers in question will walk. "This issue has already led to the announced departures of several prominent Substackers," the letter reads. "Is platforming Nazis part of your vision of success? Let us know—from there we can each decide if this is still where we want to be."

Substack executives haven't publicly responded to critics this time. But they have laid out their moderation vision before, and it's commendable. 

"In most cases, we don't think that censoring content is helpful, and in fact it often backfires," Substack co-founders Chris Best, Hamish McKenzie, and Jairaj Sethi wrote in 2020, in response to calls for them to exclude relatively mainstream but nonprogressive voices. "Heavy-handed censorship can draw more attention to content than it otherwise would have enjoyed, and at the same time it can give the content creators a martyr complex that they can trade off for future gain." They go on to reject those who would have Substack moderators serve as "moral police" and suggest that those who want "Substack but with more controls on speech" migrate to such a platform. 

"There will always be many writers on Substack with whom we strongly disagree, and we will err on the side of respecting their right to express themselves, and readers' right to decide for themselves what to read," they wrote.

If the accounts Katz identified are making "credible threats of physical harm," then they are in violation of Substack's terms of service. If they're merely spouting racist nonsense, then folks are free to ignore them, condemn them, or counter their words with their own. And they're certainly free to stop writing on or reading Substack.

But if Substack's past comments are any indication, the company won't ban people for racist nonsense alone. 

Keep Substack Decentralized  

Plenty of (non-Nazi) Substack writers support this stance. "Substack shouldn't decide what we read," asserts Elle Griffin. "We should."  Griffin opposes the coalition aiming to make Substack "act more like other social media platforms." Her post was co-signed by dozens of Substackers (and a whole lot more signed on after publication), including Edward Snowden, Richard Dawkins, Bari Weiss, Greg Lukianoff, Bridget Phetasy, Freddie deBoer, Meghan Daum, and Michael Moynihan. 

"I, and the writers who have signed this post, are among those who hope Substack will not change its stance on freedom of expression, even against pressure to do so," writes Griffin. 

Their letter brings up another reason to oppose this pressure: It doesn't work to accomplish its ostensible goal. It just ends up an endless game of Whac-A-Mole that simultaneously doesn't rid a platform of noxious voices while leading to the deplatforming of other content based on private and political agendas. 

They also note that it's extremely difficult to encounter extremist content on Substack if you don't go looking for it: 

The author of the recent Atlantic piece gave one way: actively go searching for it. He admits to finding "white-supremacist, neo-Confederate, and explicitly Nazi newsletters" by conducting a "search of the Substack website and of extremist Telegram channels." But this only proves my point: If you want to find hate content on Substack, you have to go hunting for it on extremist third-party chat channels, because unlike other social media platforms, on Substack it won't just show up in your feed.

And they point out that (as on blogs of yore) individual creators can moderate content as they see fit on their own accounts. So a newsletter writer can choose to allow or not to allow comments, can set their own commenting policies, and can delete comments at their own discretion. Some can opt to be safe spaces, some can opt to be free-for-alls, and some for a stance in between.

I'm with Griffin and company here. Substack has nothing to gain from going the way of Facebook, X, et al.—and the colossal drama those platforms have spawned and the mess they've become proves it. Substack is right to keep ignoring both the Nazis and those calling to kick them out. 

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Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason.

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  1. mad.casual   1 year ago

    Donald Trump and his supporters get called Nazis. The folks at Planned Parenthood get called Nazis. People who don't support Israel get called Nazis.

    LOL. Republicans, people who advocate for killing babies, and people who actually hate Jews get called Nazis... BOAF SIDEZ!

    What about people who request to have sandwiches made ENB? Do they get called Nazis too?

    1. mad.casual   1 year ago

      Sorry... "people who actually hate Jews (no link)"...

      Are they "not supporting" Israel by saying "We shouldn't be funding Israel." or are they, more likely given ENB's track record of honesty and clarity, "'more of an idea than a group of activists' that is 'mostly peacefully' 'not supporting' Israel from 'the river to the sea'"?

      1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

        Jews and Nazis are like peanut butter and chocolate.

        Except Jews are committing a holocaust in Gaza with your tax dollars.

        And Jews are employing real Nazis in Ukraine with your tax dollars.

        1. Don't look at me!   1 year ago

          Fuck off

          1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

            Hahaha

          2. Nazi-Chipping Warlock   1 year ago

            You forgot "and die".

            It's Misek. You don't want to forget the "and die".

        2. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

          You know you’re seen as a bad joke here, right? Even the pedophile, the morbidly obese pedophile, the Marxists, and the raving drunk hate you.

          So just go back to Stormfront. Or better yet, commit suicide. No in could ever love you and you have nothing to live for.

        3. InsaneTrollLogic   1 year ago

          Other than that, Eva Braun, how was the bunker?

          1. Chumby   1 year ago

            Eva Nolan Braun?

            1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

              Ouch! That was a serious gasoline burn!
              🙂
              😉

        4. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

          One jibberish-spouter conversing with another jibberish-spouter. How did your puzzle-piece Universes pass in the night? Did the pieces fit?

          Spare me the details and do what you do best:

          Fuck Off, Nazi!

    2. JesseAz   1 year ago

      I've never actually seen someone call PP nazi. I've seen them call PP eugenecists.

      1. mad.casual   1 year ago

        Well, she provides a link which I won't bother to click. Something she doesn't do for "people who don't support Israel". I can say that I have seen people say "Israel is a facism".

        1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

          ‘A fascism’? That sounds wrong. Like saying ‘a porn’.

          1. Nazi-Chipping Warlock   1 year ago

            "Israel is a porn."

            Hrm, yeah, that is sort of awkward.

            1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

              Rule 34 reigns supreme in Tel Aviv. And I say that as a good thing.
              🙂
              😉

      2. Rev Arthur L kuckland   1 year ago

        Well even planned parenthood said they are eugenicicsts

        1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

          Eugenics? Bah, Margaret Sanger was certainly no Herbert Edgar Wyndham.

      3. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

        I’m not clear on all her points. After ENB gets off her ass and gets me my sandwich she can explain it.

    3. Shlomo's Shiksa   1 year ago

      E.N. Braun

      1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

        Maybe ENB can become Newsom’s mistress, and he can appoint her to his cabinet when he is installed as the next Fuhrer. She can be Secretary of Sandwiches.

      2. Chumby   1 year ago

        You posted this first. Well done.

  2. Illocust   1 year ago

    Hopefully Substack will remember that its popularity came from its lack of moderation.

  3. JFree   1 year ago

    Platforms always let Nazis run all over the checks until someone invades Poland

    1. Rev Arthur L kuckland   1 year ago

      According to the paper of record (which ENB cites veroften as fact) Poland attacked germany

      1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

        Did ENB bring you your sandwich before saying that?

        1. Chumby   1 year ago

          On a Kaiser roll?

  4. Longtobefree   1 year ago

    Personally, I think the democrats should be allowed to publish.
    It lets more and more people become aware of their policies, and take steps to remove them from power.

    (new campaign: it is now time for dropping the 'formerly known as twitter' nonsense when referencing X.)

    1. Sometimes a Great Notion   1 year ago

      Counter campaign, drop the X and just return to calling it Twitter. In my day, a tweet was a Twitter post and a man had a pair of testicles. Words have meaning.

      Actually I love it, since whether Elon meant to or not (he does love the X), it illustrates just how clunky and difficult it is to just change words from the top down. And that's just for the name of a silly social media company.

      1. JesseAz   1 year ago

        Democrats have a whole political platform for changing words from the top down.

        1. Longtobefree   1 year ago

          Not to mention loud and insistent diatribes regarding "deadnaming"

        2. Earth-based Human Skeptic   1 year ago

          And changing other stuff in the bottom.

    2. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

      Yes, the Left wishes to ban Libs of Tik Tok for instance for making widely known how progressives think in their own words.

      1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

        Apparently reposting unedited shit from these people is somehow worse then Hitler.

    3. mad.casual   1 year ago

      (new campaign: it is now time for dropping the ‘formerly known as twitter’ nonsense when referencing X.)

      Personally, it's always been interesting to me that a platform that publishes no content of its own gets referenced at all.

  5. Jerry B.   1 year ago

    “Nazi” is now the default for “Doesn’t agree with me 100% of the time”.

    1. Quo Usque Tandem   1 year ago

      Thank you; best operational definition I've seen.

      Just wonder at what point does the term "NAZI" become so sufficiently diluted that people start applying it to animals. As in "those damned Nazi hoot owls," and such. Always going off in the middle of the night and stealing my cats.

      1. Quo Usque Tandem   1 year ago

        And have you seen how those bastards goose step?

    2. JFree   1 year ago

      Who know who else didn't agree with me 100% of the time?

      1. Chumby   1 year ago

        Jim J. Bullock?

      2. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

        John Cleese and Michael Palin at The Argument Clinic?
        🙂
        😉

      3. InsaneTrollLogic   1 year ago

        Damn near the entire commentariat?

        1. Nazi-Chipping Warlock   1 year ago

          *snerk*

  6. JesseAz   1 year ago

    Donald Trump and his supporters get called Nazis.

    Seems like just yesterday jeff and saec were telling us Hitler was Trump's spirit animal.

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      Republican lawmakers turn on Trump for saying migrants are 'poisoning the blood' of our country and quoting Putin

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12881811/Republican-lawmakers-turn-Trump-saying-migrants-poisoning-blood-country-quoting-Putin.html

      I'm just the messenger here.

      Yesterday JesseAz defended Trump saying that the quote wasn't exact and in the original German.

      Now if JesseAz has any integrity at all (and he does not), he will direct his rage at Republicans, since they're the ones calling out Trump.

      1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

        Well, 2 days ago Jesse said Trump was wrong to make the "poisoning the blood" comment.
        Then, Jesse spent all day yesterday defending Trump's comment.
        So of course he won't.

        1. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

          Aw, poor proggy leftists. Somebody got a quote from a couple of Uniparty shills nobody has heard of and you leftists are trying to frame it as Republicans. Fuck off you dishonest cunts.

          1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

            I quoted a fucking article, dipshit. Republicans are the ones who called out Trump. So direct your hatred at them.

            1. JesseAz   1 year ago

              No. You changed his words in half of your posts yesterday to push a leftist narrative blindly. ML was the first to post the actual quote. He included context.

              If you notice, the ones telling the loudest your exact argument, and even using the word cleanse like you also did despite it not being in the quote, are MSNBC, CNN, NYT, RollingStone, etc.

              You fought in over a dozen posts yesterday lying about what he said, using consistent rephrase found in the editorial articles of the left leaning sites. Amazing you all switched to using cleanse. Amazing you all switched to immigrants and not illegal immigrants. Amazing you all claim it was racial and not symbolic. All the exact same reframe. All the exact same cries of Hitler.

              Youre a leftist fool.

              1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                No integrity whatsoever.

                1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                  Explain why you had to change his quote with the word cleanse. Explain why you said all immigrants.

                  Of he says what you and the left claims he said you wouldn't need to change primary aspects of the quote.

                  But you felt compelled to. This points to you not believing the bullshit yourself, but you persist.

                  1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                    Republicans called out Trump. Attack them for it, not me.

                    1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      This new defense is so fucking laughable. Because youre entire argument yesterday was trump saying he wanted to cleanse the blood. You changed his words. Never brought up youre only repeating other Republicans until this morning.

                      The GOPe hates Trump and shares in the same media narratives you do. Lol.

                      Which Republicans. What did they say exactly? Note you won't say.

                      What a dishonest piece of shit you are lol.

                    2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      I quoted the article and linked to it. It says Republicans called out Trump. Attack them, not me. I'm just the messenger.

                    3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      C'mon. Pretend like you've got some integrity for once.

                    4. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      Again. Lying about quoting the article. The word cleanse doesn't exist in your daily mail link retard.

                    5. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      Republicans are disgusted with Donald Trump’s recent rally comments where he invoked language used by Adolf Hitler, quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin and sprinkled praises on other authoritarian leaders.

                      Direct your wrath and hatred at Republicans, not me.

                    6. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                      So you’re paraphrasing the Lincoln Project? Is that what you’re doing pussy?

              2. Nazi-Chipping Warlock   1 year ago

                s/fool/tool/

          2. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

            It’s all Fatfuck has.

      2. JesseAz   1 year ago

        You have been given the entire statement, the context, and continued to claim trump was using it racially, quoted Hitler, and wanted to cleanse the blood. All lies you told in defense of it.

        Your assertion is essentially both used the term blood. So have many politicians. It was a symbolically statement regarding policy and thought. That is clear from anyone who honestly reads it, hence why it doesn't apply to you.

        You spent all morning attempting to transform his words to make your comparison. It is the same thing every leftist and dem politician did as well. You chose to change what he said to push a narrative.

        Why do I need to denounce the strawman arguments you made? He didn't quote Hitler. He wasn't discussing racial. He didn't confuse legal and illegal immigration like you tried to assert.

        You want someone to condemn Trump for a strawman and leftists created. Because fundamentally youre a dishonest person.

        1. JesseAz   1 year ago

          And look. Jeff rushes in to continue to help you push the leftist narrative. Lol.

        2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          Nope. He couldn't attack Republicans for calling out Trump.

          1. JesseAz   1 year ago

            Explain why you spent all morning changing the words of his statement and claiming he quoted Hitler.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              Republicans called him out. Attack them for calling out Trump for alluding to Hitler and quoting Putin.

              1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                Which ones? Post their exact quotes. See if they were pushing the same media lies you did or if they read the actual quote.

                There are a shit ton of ignorant GOP who don't do basic research like yourself who blindly repeat narratives. It is the biggest problem of the GOPe.

                There is a reason you refused to post the actual quote. There is a reason you changed the quote. There is a reason you lied about the quote. There is a reason you use a laughable appeal to authority to defend yourself instead of posting the actual statements about the quote.

                1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  You can't do it.

                  1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    Do what?

                    Why did you change the quote almost a dozen times yesterday of what he said was so alarming? Why did you continue to double down on him saying cleanse the blood when he didnt?

                    Because fundamentally you know the argument isn't what you claim so you had to make it worse to defend pushing your narrative.

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      You're like Shameless without Emmy Rossum. Pathetic.

                    2. JesseAz   1 year ago

                      You get caught lying and blindly lying about statement to push a narrative then retreat to this. Lol.

                      Why did you change his quote to condemn it if you felt it was that bad?

                    3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      Republicans are disgusted with Donald Trump’s recent rally comments where he invoked language used by Adolf Hitler, quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin and sprinkled praises on other authoritarian leaders.

                      Attack Republicans for saying Trump invoked Hitler and quoted Putin.

                    4. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                      He never posts an actual quote. Just what he assures us was said.

                      That’s what CNN always does with Trump. They don’t play footage of his actual words. They just explain what they believe he said.

                      Sarc is just doing the same thing. Drunken lying pussy that he is.

                2. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                  Sarc is all in with the Lincoln Project pedos.

        3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          From the article:

          Republicans are disgusted with Donald Trump's recent rally comments where he invoked language used by Adolf Hitler, quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin and sprinkled praises on other authoritarian leaders.

          Attack the Republicans you twit.

          1. JesseAz   1 year ago

            Give us their exact quotes. Show us where they changed the words of his statement. Show where they said he used cleanse.

            This is your problem. You prefer to use a narrative over primary citations. Because you love being told what to think.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              I quoted the article. Republicans called out Trump. If you're going to attack someone, attack them.

              1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                No you didn't you retarded fuck. You changed his words to defend your trump is Hitler narrative.

                Cntrl-f 'cleanse'

                Zero hits.

                Fucking lying piece of shit.

                1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  Republicans are disgusted with Donald Trump’s recent rally comments where he invoked language used by Adolf Hitler, quoted Russian President Vladimir Putin and sprinkled praises on other authoritarian leaders.

                  1. JesseAz   1 year ago

                    For fucks sake sarc. You are trying to ignore your words yesterday. What a dumb piece of shit lol.

                    This wasn't your argument yesterday. Why are you fucking changing it now?

                    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                      For fucks sake Jesse. Attack Republicans for saying Trump invoked Hitler and quoted Putin.

                    2. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                      Hey pussy, do you have actual quotes or what you and other democrats are saying Trump said. This is the kind of dishonest bullshit CNN pulls.

                  2. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                    Which republicans? Name them. Cite the actual quote you drunken faggot pussy.

        4. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

          It was a symbolically statement regarding policy and thought.

          lol look at Jesse spin on behalf of Trump. There is nothing about that statement which is about "policy and thought". It is an inflammatory statement designed to generate strong emotion. That is what demagogues do.

          This whole thing, first the line about 'vermin', now this, is about shifting the cultural narrative towards immigrants. It is about shifting it away from one of compassion and tolerance, to one of contempt and fear, so that if Trump is re-elected and he gets to enact his New and Improved Border Security Policy, he will have greater latitude to enact the harsh policies that would be necessary to implement his dream of deporting all the undocumented immigrants and creating a "pure America". For Trump's part I don't think this is an intentional plan of his, he is too dumb to be this crafty. I think he truly thinks illegal immigrants are worthless horrible people and he is simply speaking his mind. And he wants to take the rest of the country along with him. But his defenders absolutely do understand what is going on here, approve of it, and therefore will continue to push that comments like "vermin" and "poisoning the blood" are no big deal until they become firmly normalized, because when that happens, the culture has shifted and they win.

          1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

            He found the right button to push and get people who would normally be wary of more government to beg for more government.

            1. JesseAz   1 year ago

              Man you two are some of the most delusional retards on the planet.

              Continue to blindly ignore the government theft to provide welfare to those not legally here. The irony is you both have supported the lefts lawfare against the right for 7 years. And then try to condemn residency laws as being authoritarian. What fucking clowns you both are.

              1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                How do you think the Illegal Immigrant Problem is to be solved, if not with more government?

                1. Super Scary   1 year ago

                  We can start by enforcing the rules already on the books, which we aren't doing right now.

                  1. EISTAU Gree-Vance   1 year ago

                    Draconian! Haha

              2. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

                the more people like Jesse pretend to focus on policy (as if namecalling is serious policy stuff!), the more he ignores the moral outrageousness of Trump's comments, the more they become quietly normalized, and the more the cultural narrative shifts in his direction.

                1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                  Jesse likes to say morally outrageous comments, so of course he's going to defend Trump. The other day he defended Giuliani by basically saying defamation shouldn't be a thing. Which is no surprise being that all he does is lie about people.

                  1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

                    More lies from the drunk pussy. Maybe you and that morbidly obese pedophile should go somewhere and fuck.

                2. EISTAU Gree-Vance   1 year ago

                  “…..the moral outrageousness of trump’s comments…”

                  Lol. You are so easily manipulated. What an idiot.

              3. Nazi-Chipping Warlock   1 year ago

                "The problem with wrestling a pig is that both of you get covered in shit. But the pig enjoys it."

          2. Nobartium   1 year ago

            The Overton window swinging right bothers you?

            I think we can count this as admission that culture does actually matter.

        5. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

          Here's another relevant Hitler quote from Mein Kampf. In this passage he is lamenting about what happened to the German people prior to WW1.

          How then did it happen that the political instincts of this very same
          German people became so degenerate? For it was not merely one isolated
          phenomenon which pointed to this decadence, but morbid symptoms which
          appeared in alarming numbers, now all over the body politic, or eating
          into the body of the nation like a gangrenous ulcer. It seemed as if
          some all-pervading poisonous fluid had been injected by some mysterious
          hand into the bloodstream of this once heroic body,
          bringing about a
          creeping paralysis that affected the reason and the elementary instinct
          of self-preservation.

          Guess what he thought was the 'poison' that entered the 'bloodstream' of the 'heroic" German state? It was Marxism. And Marxism was, according to him, a Jewish ideology. Therefore, get rid of the Jews, then the Marxism goes away, and the German state is 'cleansed' of the 'poison'.

          Sound familiar?

          1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

            Very familiar.

            1. chemjeff radical individualist   1 year ago

              Yup.

              Now, Hitler also believed that Jews were literally 'poisoning the blood' of the supposedly pure Aryan race by miscegenation and "race mixing". And Trump's defenders will focus on this, since this (probably) isn't what Trump meant when he spoke. But this misses the larger picture, that he's using the same Hitler style guide with his speeches: he's blaming and scapegoating entire groups of people, groups which oh by the way happen to be very nearly powerless and unable to fight back (kinda like the German Jews in the 1930's), and blaming them for the problems of the nation. It's horrible and disgusting.

              1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

                Demonizing people who don't speak English as a first language and blaming them for all the country's problems is a more effective way to get votes than pledging to fix Social Security and Medicare.

                1. VinniUSMC   1 year ago

                  This has been another episode of the chemleft and shitstick circle jerk.

              2. damikesc   1 year ago

                Hitler also once said "Hello", meaning EVERYBODY is using Hitlerian language.

                Even you.

          2. EISTAU Gree-Vance   1 year ago

            Hey Jeff, do you think trump might send all black people to Africa if he’s re-elected?

            If you do you’re an idiot. If you don’t, then you don’t really believe any of this “cleanse” nonsense either, and you’re a lying idiot who stokes fake outrage.

            Which is it?

            1. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

              That was Romney that Biden claimed was going to put them back in chains. I'm sure he believes that to this day.

      3. sarcasmic   1 year ago

        Aaaaaaaaand JesseAz shamelessly shows that he cannot attack Republicans for saying Trump invoked Hitler and quoted Putin.

        He cannot do it.

        Predictable as the tides.

        1. Quo Usque Tandem   1 year ago

          Classic troll; generate a thread of outrage, all the while deflecting and pivoting and never really contributing anything of substance. I cannot understand why more people don't mute you.

          Is this the only site you haven't been banned from? That would explain why you are here so often.

          1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

            He still hasn’t posted the actual quote he alleges.

  7. Mickey Rat   1 year ago

    The foundational idea of Planned Parenthood was to implement notions of eugenics and control the breeding of "lesser" humanity and has a rather impressive count at killing defenseless human creatures.

    But no one who is calling for deplatforming "nazis" would count them as deserving of being outcast.

  8. jaydubyou   1 year ago

    Point One: "Nazi" or "fascist" is the new, overused verbal analogue to "racist." Their ubiquitous usage online as adjectives of random disparagement is swiftly devaluing their actual meaning online and in the press. It's clear that "fascist" now means "anything that isn't progressive," and "Nazi" is following quickly on its heels.

    Point Two: I've engaged online with white racial supremacists (I don't know anyone personally with those views), and it's been my only interface with the repugnant, simple-minded viewpoint. Engaging/arguing with them has been frustrating, but it's truly given me insight into their argument/perspective that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. Driving them offline only will push them deeper into obscurity--and I think that's more dangerous than allowing sunlight to disinfect them.

  9. Ajsloss   1 year ago

    Ctrl + f “mastodon” : 0.

  10. Naime Bond   1 year ago

    Won't be long now before Reason starts mentioning reports that Trump keeps Substack open on a laptop on his night stand.

  11. Zeb   1 year ago

    What is so difficult to grasp about the concept of free speech?

    1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

      There is nothing difficult about it. Some people don't want people with whom they disagree to have free speech. Some people are self-aware censors, and others are trying to fool themselves by pretending that they only want to ban "hate speech." What's so difficult to grasp about the concept of censorship?

    2. BYODB   1 year ago

      It's not that people don't understand, it's that they don't agree with it at all.

      It's a literal case of 'free speech for me, because good think, no free speech for you because badthink'.

      It's quite literally that simple. And yes, they really are this retarded and when you realize that they conflate speech with violence their reasoning becomes clear even while it remains abjectly idiotic.

      1. Zeb   1 year ago

        I was thinking more that Substack has been clear and consistent that it is committed to free speech/press. And doesn't depend on ads. So what do these people expect?
        I'm probably giving them too much credit.

  12. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

    My dad and both of my uncles risked their lives fighting actual Nazis in World War Two. I think Nazis and their ideology are loathsome. As I was reading this article, I found myself as an actual example of the backfiring effect mentioned there: I had never before even heard of a sonnenrad symbol or, it turns out, ever seen one before. So I took ten seconds to do a google search and see what the fuss was about. Now, without having intended to, I have no doubt added a click to the click count for the Nazis. I have unwittingly poured fuel onto to the fires of censorship by providing another statistic to the mounting evidence of growing trends towards Nazism!

  13. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   1 year ago

    Uh, pretty easy just not to do business with Nazis, some might say. Which is actually… not true. At least not in 2023. Because while the term "Nazi" might have a fixed historical meaning, it's bandied about pretty broadly these days.

    AN IN THIS CORNER, LIZ WOLF, THE UNDISPUTED CHAMPION OF UNDERSTATEMEEEEEENT!

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   1 year ago

      Oh crap, ENB wrote this. The fuck was I thinking. I bow and scrape in apology.

      1. Quo Usque Tandem   1 year ago

        Just make her a sandwich and call it a day.

        1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

          That bitch owes me at least a dozen sandwiches. She better quit her bitchin’ and get back to the kitchen. She might produce something worthwhile for a change.

          And my sandwich goddamn well better be on marbled rye. Toasted.

      2. Chumby   1 year ago

        Eva Nolan Braun, nicht die Wolfe.

        1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

          Alles klar, Herr Chumbysar!

      3. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

        The difference is in how the sentence is interpreted once knowing it's ENB. I read that and saw a real struggle on her part for ENB while for Wolfe it would be highlighting the absurdity of the demand.

  14. Z Crazy   1 year ago

    Why stop at banning Nazis?

    Why not ban Communists and atheists as well?

    1. Earth-based Human Skeptic   1 year ago

      And clowns. I fucking hate clowns.

      1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

        While clowns are creepy, until they start goose-stepping in clown shoes or mounting cannons on clown cars, I'll just make the "V" for Victory signs and drawl like Richard Nixon saying: "Where Are The Clowns?"
        🙂
        😉

        1. Quo Usque Tandem   1 year ago

          They're already here. Just look around.

          1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

            True. They're going in drag as Normies.
            🙂
            😉

    2. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

      One, that's capital "A" Atheist, just like any other viewpoint on Philosophy or Religion needs to be capitalized.

      Two, the concept of Atheism does not necessarily carry with it any other philosophical, religious, psychological, moral, or political implications. Atheists may have any viewpoint other than belief in a God or God's.

      Three, as an Atheist who also values the faculties and practices of Reason and Free Inquiry, I say no viewpoint should be coercively censored and reprehensible Totalitarian views such as Nazism, Fascism, Theocracy, and Communism should all be exposed, refuted, denounced, and lambasted for all to see. In a free society, anyone may express any irrational or anti-human view they choose, but they may not implement their views by initiating force or inciting such initiation of force.

      Nothing "Crazy" about that.
      🙂
      😉

      1. BYODB   1 year ago

        Atheists can justify anything as good since there is no objective morality in humanism. Murder all the defectives? Good and right. Don't murder all the defectives, and instead give them positions of power? Also good and right.

        1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

          Atheism is an intellectually stunted religion.

          1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

            Says the man who's every solution involves shooting somebody?

        2. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

          Again, no moral viewpoint is necessitated in Atheism, except that it exclude belief in God. Though Humanism and Libertarianism would forbid those evil positions because they are anti-human life and flourishing.

          Now start again.

          1. middlefinger   1 year ago

            Moral Relativism can come, equally, from religion or the non religious.

            1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

              Exactly. Religion can be relativistic when it justifies anything in the name of "sincerely-held belief" or as "acting for God/Allah/Brahma." And Secular ideologies can be relativistic when they proclaim that "anything a Society/Class/Race or their Vanguard chooses to do is right because they choose to do it."

              Alas, BYODB has evidently brought a few too many for clear thinking on this subject.
              🙂
              😉

        3. Think It Through   1 year ago

          This is the opposite of reality. "God told us to" is behind so much good, and so much evil, that has occurred in this world. Charitable hospitals, and murderous wars.

          Not believing in God doesn't insulate a human from rationalization/justification, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

      2. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

        How the fuck does Aethiesm not carry religious implications? The renunciation of the basis of the religion is the whole point. You may try to recreate the philosophy, morality and rituals in a secular sense but they're often hollow imitations.

        1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

          Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism are considered religions because they believe in a Supernatural realm, however they do not require belief in a God or God's.

  15. John F. Carr   1 year ago

    If Substack doesn't depend on ads the censors don't have the same leverage as they do with Facebook and Twitter. I mean MetaXTok.

  16. Jose 3   1 year ago

    Maybe...just maybe The Atlantic is seeing itself start the long, painful slide into irrelevance and understands that the customers they've lost have gone to other venues like Substack to get away from the kind of biased, slanted, tainted, advocacy "journalism" The Atlantic spews. The logical response in this day and age is to point your finger and cry..."NAZI".

    And that, dear Atlantic, is exactly why they're all leaving you!

    1. Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo   1 year ago

      This is like Disney blaming ‘toxic fans’ for the massive box office failure of ‘The Marvels’ and their other woke film projects, instead of admitting they make shitty films anymore.

  17. mfc248   1 year ago

    This morning, Substack co-founder Hamish McKenzie issued a statement on the matter; it defends its current policies, approvingly cites the Elle Griffin post, and states an intent to stay the course.

    https://substack.com/@hamish/note/c-45811343

  18. Chumby   1 year ago

    Ministry of Managing MisInformation clearly needed here. Folks want their MoMMI.

    1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

      Are they "sloppy with a drink" when they go to Westworld?
      🙂
      😉

      1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

        Obligatory link:

        Westworld Yul Brynner Bar Scene
        https://youtu.be/8RwNqorvjtg?si=DuULkpuyK5X4yDMI

  19. Flaco   1 year ago

    At first I thought "Oh, an ENB article that isn't about sex workers, how interesting.

    But then she writes about them anyway. She just can't resist.

    "Anything related to sex work will be one of the first targets...."

    1. Chumby   1 year ago

      At least I think it was abortion free. Small steps Flaco, small steps.

    2. InsaneTrollLogic   1 year ago

      Well, it is ENB after all. If she can't insert sex workers into an article, she'll impregnate it with abortion.

  20. TJJ2000   1 year ago

    Yet at the end of the day; It's still but an acronym for [Na]tional So[zi]alism by every historical account of the word.

    The 'cleansing' was but a predictable after-effect of the ideology as it has manifested itself today in the USA with 'green energy' cleansing and 'Trump' cleansing and woke 'cleansing'.

    It's amazing how ignorant people can be about the very ideology they chose to commit to. Government-'guns' don't make sh*t!

  21. Agammamon   1 year ago

    They always want to kill and skin existing things and then wear that skin. They never want to make their own Substack.

    Why?

    Because they know that the actually interesting people are able to co-exist alongside the Nazis and aren't willing to move with them and neither are their 'customers'.

    As an analogy, that a Nazi lives on my block isn't going to get the neighborhood to move away.

    1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

      So now Nazis are okay because Jews are acting like them?

      I didn’t see that coming. Hahaha

      1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

        You don't see a lot, including what Agamammon was saying.

        Fuck Off, Nazi!

        1. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

          Correction: Agammamon. I put the "m" in the wrong spot.

          And again, Fuck Off, Nazi!

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