Ron DeSantis Is Violating Pro-Palestinian Students' Free Speech Rights

Florida's order to shut down National Students for Justice in Palestine is clearly unconstitutional.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a candidate for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination, has ordered pro-Palestinian student groups at Florida universities to shut themselves down. While the stated rationale is that these activists are providing "material support" for terrorism, the governor's order is a direct violation of free speech principles, as well as the First Amendment.

State University System of Florida Chancellor Raymon Rodrigues announced the order on Tuesday, citing the on-campus activism of National Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), a student group that is active at both the University of Florida and the University of Southern Florida.

"Based on the National SJP's support of terrorism, in consultation with Governor DeSantis, the student chapters must be deactivated," wrote Rodrigues. "These two student chapters may form another organization that complies with Florida state statutes and university policies."

The chancellor did not immediately respond to a request for comment. In his written order, he explains that National SJP circulated a "toolkit" that expresses solidarity with Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, another name for the series of brutal terrorist attacks committed by Hamas against Israeli citizens on October 7. In the state's view, this is ample evidence that the students are "knowingly providing material support" to Hamas.

The toolkit is indeed vile; its authors celebrate the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians as "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance." Anyone who disagrees with the activists is free to criticize them, organize protests against them, and form student groups that seek to counter their aims. No one has the right to shut them down, however.

National SJP's views on the conflict in Gaza are clearly protected speech rather than "material support" for terrorism. Unfortunately for would-be censors in Florida, the First Amendment takes precedence, explains the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.

"This directive is a dangerous—and unconstitutional—threat to free speech," wrote FIRE in a statement. "If it goes unchallenged, no one's political beliefs will be safe from government suppression."

Conservatives who claim to oppose censorship on college campuses—and call it out whenever right-leaning students and faculty are the victims and leftwing activists are the aggressors—are engaged in obvious hypocrisy if they do not criticize DeSantis for this. The answer to bad speech is more speech; it is not state action.

Comments

[Don't look at me!]

True, but still, LOL.

[Nardz]

He should criminally charge them then try them in kangaroo courts.
Then they could feel what it's like to be Trump supporters.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

And charge their lawyers too.

[Moo Cow]

8(

[con_fuse9]

Boo Hoo!
We should all be allowed to assault and batter federal police officers if our fee-fees get hurt.
Or attempt to usurp an election because we don't like the outcome.
Come on congress.... ignore the election result - put our man in charge!

[Social Justice is neither]

You might want to look at your own team's actions before you continue projecting so hard you ignorant cunt. More damage and injuries on the May assault on the capitol by you commies than on J6, more damage, assaults and murders in the "summer of love" insurrection than J6 and that's just one year.

[MWAocdoc]

Clear violations of the law and the Constitution no longer represent a hindrance - or even a speed bump - for politicians and other officials lately. The modus operandi these days seems to be: "Why not? I can make a political point today even if it gets slapped down tomorrow by the courts. Nothing bad will happen to me personally or to my official career as a result of knowingly and flagrantly violating the Constitution and it might even ingratiate me with a key demographic!" Until officials, police and prosecutors are actually punished for their abuse of power it will continue. But - alas! - they are protected by "immunity" which seems to be inviolable, even if the Constitution is not.

[Minadin]

Officially recognized student groups typically receive funding from the university.

We don't need to fund them.

[minnix]

This is true, no student groups should be funded if this group is made to be an exception.

[JesseAz]

Colleges and Universities already pick and choose who is fund, usually at the behest of some type of student group. It is already biased. SO don't think this example is standing out from the biases that already exist, just based on one group of people instead of another.

But I agree they shouldn't be funded. These are funded by all students despite most students never joining one of these groups.

[minnix]

If the college or university is private, then I have no issue with picking and choosing. Public universities on the other hand would have to fund all or none.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

No they don't need to fund all, but they do need clear unbiased guidelines as to who gets funded and what if anything can get those funds removed. For example, they could set minimum membership requirements or a code of conduct.

[minnix]

Someone in this thread posted a link to the rules.

“(2) Each recognized student organization’s purposes and activities shall comply with applicable provisions of the United States Constitution, federal laws, the Constitution of the State of Florida, state laws, rules and regulations of the Board of Governors, the Florida State University Board of Trustees, Florida State University, and the Florida State University Student Conduct Code, and the purposes set forth in the Student Body Constitution, and the constitution of the student organization. The student organization and its officers are responsible and accountable for all actions of the organization. Any violation of law, Board of Governors’ rules and regulations, Florida State University Board of Trustees rules and regulations, or Florida State University rules
shall be considered as offenses committed by the organization. Its officers or members shall be subject to action pursuant to the provisions of the Florida State University Student Conduct Code.
Any violation by a student organization shall render the organization’s recognition subject to review and possible revocation. Benefits of recognition include but are not limited to, use of university name and facilities, eligibility for activity and service fee funding, and participation in university events” (FSU-3.0015).”

I do not see where this particular student group is in violation.

[JimmyK24601]

Hamas' platform is "Death to (among others) the United States". I believe that declaring war against the country does not comply with the applicable provisions of any of the above.

[The Last American Hero]

I ran a martial arts club in college. We received zero funding from the school other than use of one of the rooms in the IM building. Promotions, instruction fees, protective gear , all funded by the participants. Most other clubs, from the dnd club, sca, language clubs, to other sports or interest groups were in the same situation- you can negotiate for access to a meeting space each semester and nothing else is provided by the school.

[con_fuse9]

When I was in college, I know there were groups/orgs that I didn't want funded (more money to my groups). TFB
The only thing that really sucked is the radio station WRPI was force to play inclusive/diverse music - which means they would mix classical, rock, new wave, country during every hour and every shift and as a result the better DJs quit, and no one listened to the radio (except maybe for sports). Diversity in radio programing alienates everyone.

[con_fuse9]

1) The reasons stated was support in a pamphlet of "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" - until this article I had no idea of the name was the same as the Hamas attack(s). How many members of SJP new this and support this?
2) The order was to disband the organization, not to cut the funding - a very different thing.

Colleges have long tried to corral their students - from policing off-campus parties, to policing social media and attempts to control groups on campus - all to protect the good name of the college and to keep those whipper snappers down.

Now SJP is oppressed organization and will receive more support. Streisand affect in full bloom.

[Minadin]

If someone were to start a 'Junior KKK' type student group, would that endeavor deserve to be recognized and receive funding from the university through taxpayer funding, alumni donations, or student fees?

At some point, there's a difference between allowing a vile opinion and promoting it.

What if the group was comprised of a bunch of radical anti-feminists, or people who thought that the Japanese Americans that FDR interred had it coming? Armband-wearing Nazis? Where's the line?

[JesseAz]

I'm sure they have DEI or BLM groups funded. And bet there is a DNC club.

[con_fuse9]

Young (and stupid) Republicans. Usually the lower IQ students

[Minadin]

https://reason.com/volokh/2020/01/30/trump-supporters-verbal-ability/

The statistics do not back up your assertion.

[Old Engineer]

This is not a 1st Amendment issue which is why both sides are avoiding the facts.

Students for Justice in Palestine destroy opponent's literature and physically attack counter protesters. This is not free speech, but destruction of private property and assault. Since the heads of these organizations have not, and will not, denounce the perpetrators of criminal acts, (really, if they support the murder of innocent civilians would you expect them to denounce tearing down posters and beating opponents) banning them is not an attack of free speech but the refusal to accept organized criminality.

The organizations should be banned until their spokesmen denounce the criminality of some of their supporters and remove these criminals from their organization.

It should be obvious that supporters of murderous attacks on civilians will never do either. Letting them commit violence in the name of free speech will only achieve their ultimate goal, the destruction of the 1st Amendment and the end of all free expression.

[Brett Bellmore]

Reason did sort of downplay what the group had said. They didn't "express support" for Hamas. They claimed to be part of Hamas.

"National Students for Justice in Palestine is calling for a national day of resistance on college campuses across occupied Turtle Island and internationally"

"Turtle island" is radical slang for North America; They're claiming that the whole continent is occupied territory. And we're all "settlers". Just in case anybody made the mistake of thinking they were limiting their ambitions to just Israel.

They're not planning on leaving us be, they just haven't gotten around to us.

[Idaho-Bob]

The toolkit is indeed vile; its authors celebrate the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians as "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance." Anyone who disagrees with the activists is free to criticize them, organize protests against them, and form student groups that seek to counter their aims. No one has the right to shut them down, however.

I want to see a pro-Israeli group counter protest the National SJP convention and see who initiates the violence.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

organize protests against them, and form student groups that seek to counter their aims.

Why not a Nazi student organization- officially recognized by the University with all the associated material support that sees both the Jews and the Palestinians as subhumans and worthy of extermination? What about their free speech?

[damikesc]

Hitler and the Muslim leader of Palestine seemed quite friendly with one another.

Just sayin'.

[aajax]

Trump and Kim are friendly. Can we shut Trump down for that?

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

No they aren’t. He just flattered him a little. So just stop with your TDS.

[con_fuse9]

And you know this how?

[Savage Truth]

I think the toolkit goes further and advocates violence, saying that SJP are not just in solidarity but are “part” of the operation.

[Nobartium]

State University System of Florida

I see the problem here, but will Emma connect the dots?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, a candidate for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination, has ordered pro-Palestinian student groups at Florida universities to shut themselves down. While the stated rationale is that these activists are providing "material support" for terrorism, the governor's order is a direct violation of free speech principles, as well as the First Amendment.

It could be, it might not be.

I'm honestly not sure, and this is me being entirely neutral on the Jewish/Palestine Question.

Student groups that enjoy material support from a state university to not have a right to that material support. That student group is allowed to exist, continue to speak, continue to meet etc., but that doesn't mean it gets to have official recognition and material support from the University administration or system.

While DeSantis may be violating the "principles" of free speech (something that Reason has been TERRIBLE on these last few years, so I'm not sure why it's a big issue now, except "kids doing college stuff man") it's not immediately clear to me that there is a no-shit First Amendment issue.

If it IS a First Amendment issue, then are there ANY limiting principles on what Student Groups can form which are Officially Recognized and given Material Support from the State University? If there are no limiting principles, then great, I can think of a few Student Groups one could form that would probably raise an eyebrow or two.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

A first amendment issue would be... if Ron DeathSantis demanded that all universities expelled any student for expressing anti Israel/anti-semitic speech not connected to the University. And yes, that means that no-shit NeoNazis would have a right to be students at the school, as long as they relegated their speech to unofficial activities.

[A Thinking Mind]

I agree with this, but I do come down on the side that it's poor from the standpoint of principles. It's one thing when DeSantis is trying o take CRT talking points out of education, it's another when he's exerting influence over what campus speech is permissible.

To the extent you can argue that this speech is being "supported" by state funds, most of that is the use of campus facilities. But those facilities aren't provided for free, they're included in the costs of tuition and fees. Without proof that there's actual, "material" support flowing from these campus groups over to Hamas and Palestine, it's just censorship.

[Mother's Lament - Professional Shrike Sock Spotter]

"It’s one thing when DeSantis is trying o take CRT talking points out of education, it’s another when he’s exerting influence over what campus speech is permissible."

This is one of the things that makes me uncertain about DeSantis, he flirts with the idea of using the enemy's own toolkit against them.

Society might need to resort to that one day, but right now it's too early to legitimize it.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Again, I only ask this question:

The toolkit is indeed vile; its authors celebrate the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians as "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance."

If we all nominally agree that the student group's principles are "vile" then is there a limiting principle on what level of 'vile' speech should be not only tolerated, but officially recognized as a legitimate Student Group by the university.

If you don't believe there is a limiting principle, then bravo, we don't have anything to debate, you're a legit free speech maximalist. But if I can go back into my laboratory and cook up a Student Group that makes everyone reel back and say, "Yeah, no, except for that" then I need to know where the lines are.

[MasterThief]

I'd have to read what Desantis is actually proposing here, but revoking state funding to a group is something libertarians should support as a first principle. Revoking affiliation with the school/government due to actions and stances they don't want to be associated with is a freedom of association issue. I don't know where that line is drawn, but do think it's fine to say the group doesn't get funding or recognition if they're supporting the killing of unarmed people. That isn't to say the group isn't allowed to exist or speak their mind, but they are free to do so of their own accord

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

I certainly don’t trust Reason to tell the truth about him.

[Mother's Lament - Professional Shrike Sock Spotter]

Neither do I.
It's hard to tell because Reason skews bien-pensant establishmentarian so hard.

[SQRLSY One]

https://reason.com/2022/09/27/for-florida-gov-ron-desantis-political-stunts-are-more-important-than-substance/ and

https://reason.com/2022/09/21/are-ron-desantis-migrant-flights-legal/

Ass POTUS, DeSatan will be forcing USA taxpayers to trick and ferry billions upon brazilians of sub-Brazilians from Brazil to Botswana, and to deport illegal sub-Martians from Mars to Uranus! Ass long ass the illegal Martians SUFFER-SUFFER-SUFFER, red-meat-hungry socons and troglodytes will be DELIGHTED to spend those extra tax dollars! Butt I for one think that illegal Martians are intelligent beings, too, and hope that they will NOT suffer on Uranus, from too many foul odors, etc.!

DeSatan tis of Thee,
Sweet Man of tyranny!
From every mountainside,
You can smell Him for free!
DeLand where de eagles glide!
DeLand where de illegals hide!

DeSatan, tis of Thee I sing,
To the liberals, tears You bring!
You make the proggies cry!
Talk with THEM?! Don’t even try!

DeSatan, tis of Thee I praise!
For the woke, Holy Hell You raise!
Illegal Martians? Low-life scum, You catch and send,
To Uranus with them! Ignore tax dollars You spend!
We must punish ALL, who to USA might sail,
At ALL costs, DeSatanism MUST prevail!

#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard

#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I agree with this, but I do come down on the side that it’s poor from the standpoint of principles.

The principles of free speech, I entirely agree with, which is why I took my shot at Reason's coverage of free speech issues over the last few years because they've been hewing very closely ONLY to statutory violations of the First Amendment while saying little to nothing about the 'principles' of free speech, and vociferously defending all manner of institutional suppression of speech under the guise of "it's their right to do so, man". Even going as far as claiming in an article that "it's not censorship if it doesn't violate the First Amendment". Thankfully, the commentariat took them to task on that one.

But those facilities aren’t provided for free, they’re included in the costs of tuition and fees. Without proof that there’s actual, “material” support flowing from these campus groups over to Hamas and Palestine, it’s just censorship.

Right, which means that one could form an actual Neo Nazi Student Group, or KKK Student Group and have 100% clear, unambiguous right to book meeting rooms and other school facilities because "it was paid for in the tuition anyway".

Again, if there is a limiting principle to what kind of student group can form, what is it?

[A Thinking Mind]

Again, if there is a limiting principle to what kind of student group can form, what is it?

You've got me. I'm a free speech absolutist, though-if students wanted to form a campus KKK chapter, I'd support their right to do it, as long as they weren't violating any actual laws.

[minnix]

Do you have any info as to whether this particular group was receiving support from the University?

[Dillinger]

existence is support from the University.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

See my comment below, there are undoubtedly no-shit material benefits of being an official student organization.

[Dillinger]

couple 1A classes you'd think half our jurisprudence came from assholes starting student groups just to piss off administrators

[minnix]

Can you explain how existence is support from the University?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Beyond how the article and the press describes it, no. I am presuming in this case that since DeSantis demands the group be shut down, A: there is some identifiable organization that can be shut down, and 2: their activities can be verified as no longer in a state of continuation.

For a random example.

Student Organization Recognition Purpose and Structure RECOGNIZED STUDENT ORGANIZATIONS

Why is there a Recognition Process? The purpose of recognizing student organizations at William & Mary is to provide a structure through which students may exercise their right to freely associate in pursuit of a common purpose or goal that enhances community at William and Mary. Recognized student organizations create opportunities for leadership development, learning, student engagement, and fostering of shared interests.

General Expectations of Recognized Student Organizations All recognized student organizations are expected to uphold University policies and procedures and always act in good faith when conducting organizational business. Further, recognition does not imply that the University assumes liability or legal responsibility for the actions of any group. Recognition of a group does not deprive the University of any of its rights to act for the welfare of the community. Continuation of recognition is dependent upon the fulfillment of intent and demonstrated ability to abide by the organization’s constitutions and the University’s educational purposes.

The above clearly states there is a process for official recognition by the University. There is an attached PDF of “benefits of a recognized Student Organization”.

I won’t link to the PDF, but they include, but are not limited to:

University issued organization ID Organization Web Hosting Access to resources of the CORT Scheduling Priority Reservations Eligibility Scheduling: Ability to schedule and reserve space on campus Ability to procure facilities management services Priority access to student organization office space Eligibility to apply for SA funds. Use of Tax Exempt Status of the college Ability to reserve express fundraising equipment through ID office. Use of the [university name] in the organization name.

At this point, I have to assume, given the tone, tenor and context of all the media articles, that this organization would have similar benefits and privileges offered to them by the Florida university.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Further, using the 'random example' I linked to above, there also comes some responsibilities, laid out along with benefits:

Follow University Policy
Include non-discrimination and hazing prevention language in Constitution/Bylaws
membership Data provided to SLD
Membership size requirements (size matters, apparently)

And some other mundane ones like maintaining a constitution etc.

[minnix]

The example you linked is a private college in Virginia. My specific question was whether this particular group was receiving support from the University. Do you have any info regarding this?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Yes

The directive applies only to the institutions in the state university system, not those overseen by the Florida Department of Education. According to Rodrigues, two State University System of Florida institutions have SJP chapters. The letter advises the universities to allow students in those clubs to form new student groups that comply “with Florida state statutes and university policies” and to “grant these two chapters a waiver for the fall deadlines, should reapplication take place.”

[minnix]

Are you replying to the correct comment? My question was whether this particular group was receiving support from the University as you implied in your original statement. Your quote does not answer the question. Do you have that info?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

that info has been provided. Is it your contention that the Student group in question is not an RSO? The above article specifically states that SJP is a recognized RSO in two state universities in Florida. Is this your way of trying to wiggle out of the fact that I'm right? Because you're not talking your way out of this shit.

[minnix]

Right about what exactly? All I did was ask for info.

[JesseAz]

Can you provide an opinion without asking 50 questions having other people do the research youre curious about sea lion?

[minnix]

I've done so in other parts of this thread

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

And the benefits received by RSO's are near-fucking exact to the "random example" I provided above:

To be eligible to receive privileges and services, student organizations must complete the recognition
process with the Department of Student Affairs each academic year. Below are several examples of
benefits for Recognized Student Organizations.
RSOs receive benefits and privileges including:
• Automatically included in a list of current organizations on the FSU Panama City Recognized
Student Organization webpage.
• Support and assistance with recruitment, marketing, event planning, and organization
development through the Department of Student Affairs and the Student Government Council.
• Participation in the Org Fair hosted at the beginning of each semester.
• RSOs are eligible for activity and service (A&S) funds through the Student Government Council
and the Student Advocacy Board Alliance.
• Reserve campus spaces for meetings and events through the Department of Student Affairs. See
the Event Registration section of this handbook for more information.
• Campus posting privileges including chalking, distribution of handbills, and posting flyers in
compliance with the University Posting Policy.
• Eligibility to win awards such as “RSO of the Year” and “Advisor of the Year” awards at the end of
the year banquet each spring.
• Access to computer, printer, and copier in the Student Government Council office – usage of
these tools should be for organization business only.
• Ability to co-sponsor events with the Department of Student Affairs and/or the Student
Government Council.

[minnix]

So then wouldn’t your statement of “the University literally maintains “a right to shut them down”.” in regards to the 1st amendment depend on if 1. this is a public vs private university (it is public in this case), and 2. whether what they were doing is illegal? (it is not illegal).

As to funding, to prevent violating the 1st, wouldn't either all student groups that are not breaking the law required to be funded or none should be funded for a public university?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

This is not a first amendment issue. This is an RSO, in a university which maintains the sole rights of discrimination in who gets to be an RSO.

[minnix]

>This is an RSO, in a university which maintains the sole rights of discrimination in who gets to be an RSO.

As long as they are not in violation of the following rules:

“(2) Each recognized student organization’s purposes and activities shall comply with applicable provisions of the United States Constitution, federal laws, the Constitution of the State of Florida, state laws, rules and regulations of the Board of Governors, the Florida State University Board of Trustees, Florida State University, and the Florida State University Student Conduct Code, and the purposes set forth in the Student Body Constitution, and the constitution of the student organization. The student organization and its officers are responsible and accountable for all actions of the organization. Any violation of law, Board of Governors’ rules and regulations, Florida State University Board of Trustees rules and regulations, or Florida State University rules
shall be considered as offenses committed by the organization. Its officers or members shall be subject to action pursuant to the provisions of the Florida State University Student Conduct Code.
Any violation by a student organization shall render the organization’s recognition subject to review and possible revocation. Benefits of recognition include but are not limited to, use of university name and facilities, eligibility for activity and service fee funding, and participation in university events” (FSU-3.0015).”

Where exactly are they in violation? Nowhere does it say the University can shut them down for any reason at all.

[JesseAz]

They didn't. Google sea lion in regards to debates.

[minnix]

"They didn't."

What exactly is this an answer to?

[mad.casual]

Even if it were a 1A issue. The 1A is both free speech *and* free association and nowhere in the Constitution/BOR is there a federal or Congressional mandate for control over all Universities and Colleges.

You may not like that some Universities, public or private, can tell their students what to think or their professors what to say and there are cases where a University doing so violates peoples' civil rights but, by and large, it's the University's job to do exactly that and, as usual and/or once again, the actual/libertarian/free speech/free association solution is to privatize all education so that people like minnix can fuck right the hell off trying to use creeping federalism under the guise of the 1A to enforce authoritarianism/totalitarianism.

[minnix]

"so that people like minnix can fuck right the hell off trying to use creeping federalism under the guise of the 1A to enforce authoritarianism/totalitarianism."

Can you quote the part of my statement where I am doing this?

[mad.casual]

minnix 16 hours ago

none should be funded for a public university?

[mad.casual]

As to funding, to prevent violating the 1st, wouldn’t either all student groups that are not breaking the law required to be funded or none should be funded for a public university?

This is abjectly fucking retarded. Even my 10 yr. old would recognize how utterly stupid you're being *EVEN BY YOUR OWN STUPID FUCKING PRECEPTS*.

OK, so to avoid violating the 1A of the specific group uttering contentious speech the University should derecognize all RSOs, even the ones engaged in far less controversial speech or no speech at all? And that's the only way by which the University, not run by you, can choose with what student associations it can associate and which ones it can't.

Again, *BY YOUR OWN SUPPOSED PRECEPTS YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON.*

[minnix]

To prevent violating the 1st at a public university, what would be your solution if you disagree with mine?

[con_fuse9]

Desantis didn't say "cut the funding" he said these groups are criminal and must be disbanded.
Lets see...
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Dillinger]

you use clearly and obvious as though things are clear and obvious you should ask Coach Kennedy what he thinks.

[Nardz]

On the one hand, good because fuck leftists.
On the other hand, this constant whining and accusing on the right by conservatives and libertarians about antisemitism is 100% reinforcing the left's identity class marxism.
This is one of those "woke more correct" moments- Jews aren't special, they're just white people. If you're up in arms about antisemitism but don't give a shit about anti white-ism or the "browning of America" you're just following the woke pomo commandments.
A lot of the people you're protecting from "antisemitism" today will be right back to accusing you of it tomorrow and calling you a white supremacist the next day.

[One-Punch_Man]

I agree. Even if the dog bites you later, you have to feed it through. If they are dumb and want to vote for Democrats after all this so be it.

Look at inner cities that elect the same people over and over. Yet the cities are crapholes. There are no changing some people. Doesn't mean you don't take a stand

[Vernon Depner]

It appears that SJP's speech in this context meets the Brandenburg test of "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" and therefore censorship is justified.

[minnix]

Can you quote the speech that does so? I cannot find it myself.

[Vernon Depner]

If you've read the "toolkit" and don't see it, then you're too stupid to be worth conversing with.

https://dw-wp-production.imgix.net/2023/10/DAY-OF-RESISTANCE-TOOLKIT.pdf

[minnix]

All I'm asking is for you to quote the part that meets the "Brandenburg Test" you referenced. If you cannot and rather just call me stupid, then so be it.

[Vernon Depner]

"The part"? It calls for violence from start to finish.

[minnix]

A single line will do. Vague hand waving without substance is all you're doing now.

[Vernon Depner]

Playing dumb is all you're doing.

[mad.casual]

It's literally the sea-lioning meme.

[minnix]

So would that be no part then? I cannot find any.

[Social Justice is neither]

It's not playing.

[Milhouse]

Calling for violence does not satisfy Brandenburg.

[Vernon Depner]

“directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action”

When the violence is IN PROGRESS there is no question that it's "imminent" and "likely to incite".

[Savage Truth]

Your question deserves response.

SJP issued a “toolkit” to supporters that in part referred to Operation Al-Aqsa Flood (the massacre) as “the resistance” and stated: “Palestinian students in exile are part of this movement, not in solidarity with this movement.”

So, part of a group committed to and advocating genocidal terrorism.

[minnix]

THANK YOU for actually taking the time to answer my question instead of ad-hominem attacks. I read "this movement" as what the toolkit defines:

"This is a moment of mobilization for all Palestinians. We must act as part of this movement. All of our efforts continue the work and resistance of Palestinians on the ground" and then there are flyers detailing protest locations. There is no specific call from violence from the student organization.

Irrespective of our views, thanks again for actually providing a straight answer.

[mad.casual]

Your question deserves response.

This assumes the question and the asker are the one and the same. In traditional, good faith debates, this is assumed. This is not a traditional good faith debate, the question may deserve a response, the asker doesn't. It's a delay/obfuscation/agree-to-disagree tactics.

Like hosting a debating the morality of executing Jews with Nazis while the gas chambers are still running. They don't care whether they win or lose the debate and the longer it goes on for them, the better.

[Vondy]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/brandenburg_test

[minnix]

That is the Brandenburg test itself, not speech from the SJP.

[SQRLSY One]

DeSatan… SPEAKS to me! Get Thee behind me, DeSatan!

Scienfoology Song… GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers

DeSatan loves me, This I know,
For DeSatan tells me so,
Little ones to GAWD belong,
We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!

DeSatan loves me, yes indeed,
Makes the illegal sub-humans bleed,
Protects me for geeks and freaks,
I LOVE to pay taxes, till my wallet squeaks!
PUNISH Disney, I’ll PAY for their pains,
Ass long ass DeSatan Blesses our gains!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!

DeSatan expels the low-lifes to Venus,
Moves them ANYWHERE, with His Penis!
His Penis throbs with His Righteousness,
Take no heed, He says, of His Frighteousness!
ALL must be PUNISHED, they say!
So never, EVER be or say gay!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!

Our USA taxes must PAY The Way, He may say,
To EXPORT the illegal Mars aliens, every day!
To Pluto, Jupiter, or Uranus, they must ALL go!
Oh, the places that the low-lifes will go, you must know!
The taxes we shall pay? Through the money, we must BLOW!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!

(If we did NOT do-doo, doo-doo-doo, ALL of this, then that them thar illegal Mars aliens WILL show up on OUR doors, in the formerly pure USA!!! We MUST keep them AWAY, far away, out in the Deep Dark Yonder!)

#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard

#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong

[JesseAz]

No one has the right to shut them down, however.

Not funding them is not equivalent to shutting them down.

This is like book bans requiring libraries to buy books or it is a ban. It is an infantile assertion.

I'd rather just defund all the groups and be done with it. Returns the student fees that fund these groups back to the students.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

No one has the right to shut them down, however.

Again, assuming this was an Officially Recognized Student Group, the University literally maintains "a right to shut them down". Unless Reason can show that this was just an unofficial association of students that received no recognition from the University with its concomitant benefits, then they absolutely positively have a right to shut them down. Their entire status literally depends on the good graces of the University.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Again, I'm assuming that when Reason and other media outlets refer to this as a Student Group, they're not just talking about eight dudes who meet in their dorm room every week and maintain a Geocities website.

[minnix]

Wouldn't your statement of "the University literally maintains “a right to shut them down”." in regards to the 1st amendment depend on if 1. this is a public vs private university, and 2. whether what they were doing is illegal?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

The university literally has a right to shut them down, and the first amendment isn't in play. Their activity need not be illegal for a university-- or State University in this case- to shut them down. Per most university RSO rules-- two examples of which I've now posted.

[minnix]

Here are the rules from the source you listed:

"(2) Each recognized student organization’s purposes and activities shall comply with applicable provisions of the United States Constitution, federal laws, the Constitution of the State of Florida, state laws, rules and regulations of the Board of Governors, the Florida State University Board of Trustees, Florida State University, and the Florida State University Student Conduct Code, and the purposes set forth in the Student Body Constitution, and the constitution of the student organization. The student organization and its officers are responsible and accountable for all actions of the organization. Any violation of law, Board of Governors’ rules and regulations, Florida State University Board of Trustees rules and regulations, or Florida State University rules
shall be considered as offenses committed by the organization. Its officers or members shall be subject to action pursuant to the provisions of the Florida State University Student Conduct Code.
Any violation by a student organization shall render the organization’s recognition subject to review and possible revocation. Benefits of recognition include but are not limited to, use of university name and facilities, eligibility for activity and service fee funding, and participation in university events” (FSU-3.0015)."

Where exactly are they in violation?

[JesseAz]

They are in violation of a state law of Florida regarding antisemitism which is a condition literally in your quote.

https://www.fox13news.com/news/governor-signs-bill-that-targets-hate-crimes-into-law-following-anti-semitic-incidents-in-florida

[minnix]

"The law, which DeSantis made official during a trip to Israel, makes harassing or intimidating someone based on their religion or ethnicity a hate crime that can be prosecuted as a third-degree felony."

Where is the SJP doing this exactly?

[JesseAz]

I like your sea lion role here. We haven’t seen much of it since Mike left.

Openly marching and advocating for the death of a culture is harassment no? I mean a workplace can be sued for harassment over a crude joke.

[Milhouse]

No, it isn't. Or if it is, then such "harassment" can't be illegal. Remember, "mere advocacy" has absolute protection, regardless of what is being advocated.

[minnix]

I have found nowhere that this student group has advocated for the death of a culture.

[jimc5499]

The College or University may not be able to shut them down, but, they do have the right to disassociate from them. Like no funding, no use of facilities, no use of the College or University name and so forth. Student Activity Fees are one of the biggest scams around. They are tied to the cost of a "credit hour" so Student Loans will pay for them. Many students who have classes during "off hours" have no access to the "events" that these fees are supposed to support. Many Colleges and Universities hand out these "fees" to Left leaning Student Groups while not funding Conservative Groups.
It would be interesting for the College or University to stop all support for the SJP and see what happens. I'm betting on riots, with the main instigators being non-students, who are brought in for this purpose.
As far as which groups that can be supported, I just have to say one thing. In 2010 a major State University that is famous for a sex scandal involving underage boys, had flyers posted about a group giving a seminar on campus. The group was NAMBLA.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

The College or University may not be able to shut them down, but, they do have the right to disassociate from them.

I am assuming that "shutting down the organization" in this particular context means literally that. Which further provides ammunition to my argument. No one is stopping a group of college students from meeting at a local coffee shop and maintaining a website. But if they are receiving the material support of the university and all of the associated benefits, (and every ounce of evidence suggests they are receiving such benefits) then the University may terminate those benefits, including but not limited to fundraising and infrastructure provisioning.

[Nardz]

When I was in college, we had an unofficial fraternity. Some event in the past led to one fraternity being suspended, and there was a split where half the frat went through the process of becoming official again and the other half kept up as a frat but did their own thing separate from the university. This all happened well before I got there, so I’m fuzzy on the details. I had a lot of friends in the outlawed frat, hung out with them a bunch. Did everything like all the other frats, just didn’t get any resources or official recognition from the school. They’d been an unofficial institution for over a decade and, while the school didn’t recognize them, they didn’t do do anything to discourage membership or hinder their activities.

[ThomasD]

I attended UF back in the 80's and there were plenty of such grpups to be found in the student ghetto.

[mad.casual]

Joking, but only half, these were referred to as "alumni groups" when/where I went to school.

[jimc5499]

Exactly. Nobody's rights are being taken away. The "organization" will just lose financial and material support from one source. That would compel the "organization" to support itself.

[Social Justice is neither]

It may be an infantile and idiotic response but it is also the most common refrain from writers here whenever the left is on the receiving end of their own tactics, usually praised by the writers in the first incarnation.

[One-Punch_Man]

Robby, which part of State University System of Florida did you miss. Government can say - we are funding you if you have this group. The school can decide to close the group or fund it themselves.

Everyone is equal to free speech (even if the left doesn't want it that way). But, you entitled for it to be pay for - job, clubs, etc

[Rossami]

"support" for terrorism - yes. "material support - no.

The article is quite correct. Despicable as this organization is, Florida's response to it is inappropriate.

[jimc5499]

No it isn't. It's just being reported that way. If this was Newsome ordering pro-Israel groups to shut down Soave would be in support of it.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Inappropriate in that it's a first amendment violation? Because it is not. Inappropriate in that DeSantis is being mean to students who have heterodox views on killing Jews but have broken no statutory law? Possibly. Within the rights of the state university to cancel the RSO status of a previously recognized group? Absofuckinglutely.

[ThomasD]

Declaring yourself to be part of an organization very much qualifies as material support for that organization.

[Social Justice is neither]

Why exactly is Florida required to subsidize a group advocating support for terrorism explicitly?

[A Thinking Mind]

Also, this is the first time I've ever heard of "Turtle Island." Is this actually a widespread concept?

[Vernon Depner]

Among morons like them, yes.

[Longtobefree]

If you think it is a first amendment violation, go hire a lawyer and get a court to declare the law unconstitutional.
DeSantis didn't just wake up in a bad mood, he is following state law. Duly debated and passed by the legislature and signed by the governor.

[minnix]

What state law is he following?

[Minadin]

It's specifically named in the letter, which was fraudulently framed as a law against 'antisemitism' when it's actually a law against providing support to terrorist groups, but it's all there in the article above.

[ThomasD]

If Rico were remotely honest then anyone reading his screed should have learned the actual facts of the matter. But to lay it out clearly would be to wholly undermine his arguement.

[minnix]

“The law, which DeSantis made official during a trip to Israel, makes harassing or intimidating someone based on their religion or ethnicity a hate crime that can be prosecuted as a third-degree felony.”

The student organization hasn't done this, from what I've read at least. If you disagree, where exactly are they in violation?

[Minadin]

So, you didn't read the letter or look up the law.

There are only two links in the article. It's not the one to the 'vile toolkit', if that helps.

Here's a link to the law in question (the one invoked by the letter, not the one referred to erroneously by other parties):

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0775/Sections/0775.33.html

And specifically the section that they reference is:

"(5)(a) For purposes of prosecution under subsection (2) or subsection (3), a person is deemed to provide material support or resources by providing personnel if the person knowingly provides, attempts to provide, or conspires to provide himself or herself or another person to:
1. Work under the direction and control of a designated foreign terrorist organization or a person engaged in, or intending to engage in, an act of terrorism; or
2. Organize, manage, supervise, or otherwise direct the operations of a designated foreign terrorist organization or a person engaged in, or intending to engage in, an act of terrorism."

[Think It Through]

Meh.

[Vondy]

The university is not obligated to give any group material support in the form of money, access to university communications, or space to organize and operate, when that group's mission and statements run afoul of the university ethos and, in this case, create division and a sense of fear among the student body. This is especially true when that group's charter and statements cross the line from merely vile and unpopular to open incitement. In this case, the group's organizational charter does not merely support Hamas but describes itself as an extension of Hamas. I'm all for free speech, but that does not include incitement and "calls to action" in lockstep with a terrorist organization. No, wait, I correct myself. Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. Its a genocidal death cult.

[NOYB2]

Florida's order to shut down National Students for Justice in Palestine is clearly unconstitutional.

Nobody is preventing them from speaking; they just can't do it on campus. I don't see how this is a 1A violation.

And what's the justification? NSJP literally declared itself a part of a racist, terrorist organization with the declared objective of genocide. Nazis don't get to have on-campus organizations, eugenicists and racists don't, and neither should terrorist organizations.

[Minadin]

As far as I can tell, they can still even do it on campus, informally, they just won't be listed as an official student group or receive the benefits and funding of such a designation.

[Social Justice is neither]

Well, a number of explicitly racist organizations are officially part of the school, just not white racists.

[AT]

Simplistically dismissing it as "bad speech" is disingenuous.

The reality is that SJP is an extension of a known terrorist network/nation. It's glaringly obvious that their goal is to recruit and then radicalize people into support for Hamas and their terrorism. They readily admit that their members aren't just agreeing with Hamas - they are a part of what Hamas is doing.

The very same day Hamas started their butchering, SJP mobilized at the request of Hamas. And contrary to what this article says, ("he explains that National SJP circulated a "toolkit" that expresses solidarity with Operation Al-Aqsa Flood"). what it ACTUALLY says is the exact opposite:

"Palestinian students in exile are PART of this movement, not in solidarity with this movement."

If you wanted to go simplistic, you should have stuck with the simple truth:

SJP = Hamas. It's a homegrown terrorist recruiting organization. Scratch a supporter of Palestine, you'll find a jihadist every time.

[ThomasD]

Always edifying to see who Reason goes to the mattresses over.

Nobody is denying them the ability to say whst they say, the State of Florida is merely declining to endorse or support them.

Rico, you are such a predictable tool.

[Jeff Mason]

The article is woefully incomplete. There is no information on what activities the student groups undertook beside simple speech. If they raised money for Gaza, that could be construed as “material support” since Gaza is governed by Hamas, a terrorist organization. That would be no different than sending money to the Nazis at the height of WW2 or Al Qaeda after 9/11. People have a right to make fools of themselves with their speech. They do NOT have a right to fund terror organizations.

[SRG2]

A better speech:

"My fellow Americans, the First Amendment protects one of our most important rights, freedom of speech. This freedom is not just for people we agree with, but for people we disagree with, even if they are racist anti-Semitic scum like the students who recently joined in the pro-Palestinian protests or who approved of Hamas's vile and despicable acts against innocent Israeli civilians. We should let them speak not least so we can identify them as no better than Nazi-supporting Germans in the 1930s or KKK members at all times. These students, loathsome individuals though they are, are still entitled to freedom of speech. But recall that the government may not infringe on that right, but an individual employer is not bound by free speech rights. A company may well decide that it does not wish to employ these extreme racists, and that is its right and any decent American would support such a company's decision. There is no place for such anti-American bigots in our society, and we should be pleased that the first amendment allows them to expose themselves."

[cherryb]

I agree this violates free speech rights but was is truly infuriating is that this will get widespread condemnation from both the left and the right that will be loud enough to rightfully overturn this. Yet there will be the lightest whispers of protest from the right in defense of the free speech of J6ers, pro-life protesters, meme-makers, or Donald Trump. Their rights will not be loudly defended, fought for, or restored.

[Jonathan Affleck]

Hamas comes under 18 U.S. Code § 2339B - Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations.

The State of Israel comes under 18 U.S. Code § 2339A - Providing material support to terrorists.

SJP speech does not provide material support to a designated foreign terrorist organization (= Hamas).

Hillel provides material support to terrorists (= genocide-perpetrators, i.e., Zionist colonial settlers in stolen Palestine).

[Phil R]

Robbie Soave may be right, but he doesn’t offer much of an argument. What is missing is an examination of the grounds for revoking recognition from Students for Justice in Palestine. He could then show why those grounds are mistaken or insufficiently weighty.

As a thought experiment, imagine (A) that the group’s name was “A Student Front Group for Hamas in Florida,” (B) that it boasted of coordinating its activities with a larger network of organizations that claim to be part of a pro-Hamas movement, and (C) that state-level officials have strong evidence that this larger network takes direction from a known Hamas affiliate.

Would Soave say that even then there would be no (or insufficient) grounds to revoke the group’s recognition? If not, then I’m not persuaded. If so, we need to know why he thinks this case is relevantly different. I doubt (A) alone will cut it.

So far, I’m convinced only that the matter isn’t as cut-and-dry as Soave makes it out to be.

[Muzamal]

asadf