America's Broken, Lurid View of Foreign Wars
Fixating on atrocities and ignoring the “normal” horrors of war neither helps Americans appreciate the tragedy of war nor gives the dead the dignity they deserve.

The English-language media has spent a lot of time debating whether Israeli babies were beheaded. An Israeli newscaster had reported that a soldier found decapitated children at the scene of an attack on Kfar Aza by the Palestinian group Hamas. The story made it to front pages around the world. Other journalists began to scrutinize the claim and heard different accounts from different officials in the Israeli government. U.S. President Joe Biden implied that he had seen photos of the beheadings, then the White House backtracked.
All this debate around beheadings seemed to miss a more fundamental point: that children were killed. The existence of a massacre should be enough to shock and horrify. Hamas killed or took hostage hundreds of Israelis. (Clearly frustrated with media skepticism, the Israeli government posted pictures of burned Israeli children to social media.) The Israeli military has killed hundreds of Palestinians with bombs in retaliation. The intense focus on one gruesome detail amid a pile of dead and maimed bodies shows there is something fundamentally wrong with the way American society approaches war in foreign countries.
On one hand, Americans are not confronted with the horror that "normal" weapons of war—bullets, bombs, and hunger—inflict on a human body. On the other hand, American media likes to fixate on specific atrocity stories, repeating the most ugly details as if the news were a carnival of horror. Neither approach helps Americans appreciate the tragedy of war nor gives the dead the dignity they deserve. Their main accomplishment is to normalize the idea of endless conflict.
The dead are still being counted in Israel and Palestine, and an all-out ground war is likely. If that comes to pass, many more innocent people will die. Americans have little framework for understanding the horror that is about to unfold.
Israeli officials have said that they will not allow food, water, or electricity into the Palestinian enclave of Gaza until Israeli hostages are released, even as Palestinian hospitals run low on supplies. British-Palestinian doctor Ghassan Abu-Sittah described a 14-year-old girl with burns all over her body from an airstrike. Burn treatment is already an excruciating process, and because doctors ran out of antiseptic, they had to clean her wounds with regular soap.
A similar story is playing out a few hundred miles north, in a separate conflict. After Kurdish guerillas attacked the Turkish parliament, NATO member Turkey launched a massive bombing campaign to wipe out electrical and water infrastructure in Kurdish cities. The results are horrifying in all the same ways.
"Most Americans can imagine armed people on the ground as a threat but are so fundamentally unable to imagine what high-tech military equipment does to a place without air defenses that they can't even make themselves afraid of it," an expert who works on the Kurdish issue told me, referring to both military campaigns. "The stuff about destroying infrastructure and cutting electricity and water too. People seem to not be able to conceptualize what that does."
Palestinian critics often complain that American media is much quicker to accept Israeli allegations about Palestinian crimes than Palestinian allegations about Israeli crimes. American critic Noam Chomsky made the same point about Cold War conflicts, including the Turkish-Kurdish conflict, in the book Manufacturing Consent.
Journalists tend to describe crime against "worthy victims" in all their horrid detail, and are crystal clear about the malice of the perpetrators, according to Chomsky's book. The media describes "unworthy victims" in a more abstract language, Chomsky argued, and tends to hem and haw about who was responsible for the suffering.
But even the way "worthy victims" are covered can be insulting to their dignity.
"I am begging people to not engage in debates about specific gory details of how people died on [the] Israeli side. It is not useful or necessary to talk about it and it is incredibly jarring that many in [the] West do not care about real desperation, panic, fear we are going through," an Israeli user wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter. She said she could not speak for Palestinians, "but for Israeli Jews (and non-Jews that always suffer equally as unintended targets) it is emotionally disturbing to hear ourselves described as defiled corpses."
If this voyeurism serves anyone, it is hawkish politicians. War hawks need to stoke paranoia about the world in general and bloodlust against specific enemies. Asked if there was a way to defeat Hamas without endangering Palestinian civilians, Sen. Marco Rubio (R–Fla.) enumerated a list of Hamas war crimes and claimed that there is no "off-ramp" in a conflict with "savages." Sen. Lindsey Graham (R–S.C.) stated that the world is in a "religious war" and called for bombing Iran even if there is no evidence of Iranian involvement in the Hamas attack.
And that voyeurism has to be selective for it to work. The more unique the crime, the better. Drawing attention to the suffering that bullets, bombs, and hunger cause—even the suffering that Hamas bullets cause for Israelis—might raise uncomfortable questions about the things American weapons do abroad. The image of war as an alien, savage act is much more comforting for the people who do not have to live through it.
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>>Palestinian critics often complain that American media is much quicker to accept Israeli allegations
in America we call that gaslight. Ingrid Bergman and all.
America's Broken, Lurid View of Foreign Wars
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I don't know who you are Mr. Petti, but kindly go fuck yourself.
I don’t know who you are Mr. Petti
"Matthew Petti is an independent journalist who worked in Jordan as a 2022–2023 Fulbright fellow."
Ah. Of course.
Doesn't take much education to be a Fulbright scholar, if he thinks modern warfare is uniquely horrible to civilians, compared to our entire history. I wonder if he ever read about the Peninsula Campaign, or the bombing of German and Japanese cities if he thinks today is somehow more horrible. Definitely never read anything about Medieval Warfare or warfare during the Migration Period or any of the Roman Wars.
Fulbrights are the totalitarian mandarin pipeline.
Scum
Quoting Noam Chomsky was pretty indicative of his biases.
That stuck out to me as well.
Crazy that people still quote him after his disgusting Cambodia denial/excuses. You'd think this author in particular would be worried about the toll on Cambodians but I guess not when you need to focus on Chomsky other work to make his case.
Hey now! Noam Chomsky is singularly brilliant *in his field of study and expertise.* The problem is, Chomsky's commentary often goes well beyond his field and expertise, and in those cases, he is disturbingly biased and often singularly idiotic.
I can remember, as a kid, a couple different times, not having power for 3-4 days in the middle of a blizzard/ice storm and everyone sleeping in the same room around the fireplace to avoid freezing and reading, playing cards, etc. by lantern light. I know parts of New England, N. Dakota, Montana, and Idaho are worse than even that.
I’m pretty sure there are some Texans who can appreciate what cutting off water and electricity can do.
My in laws bought an electric generator and let people use electricity in exchange for courier service through streets full of standing water after Hurricane Ian.
I still, routinely, almost two decades later, hear tell about how it took FEMA 5 days to get water to the Superdome.
People repeating the “People seem to not be able to conceptualize what that does.” seem like selective memory, bubble-dwelling idiots who live in places where if you lose power for a couple hours it’s no big deal because it never drops below ~40 or gets above ~90 degrees outside for very long.
Throw in the talk about hospitals and people being unable to get medical care and it makes it seem like they’ve suffered some TBI that prevents them from remembering 2019-2021, hospitals being closed down and people dying because they’ve been shut indoors and out of medical care.
A large part of the reason that there will be so many civilian casualties in Gaza is because Hamas purposely sites military equipment, such as rocket launchers, inside areas with large civilian populations specifically so that the Israelis either have to not retaliate or inflict civilian casualties so that people like Matthew can decry all the civilian casualties that Israeli response inflicts. Maybe Matthew should have included that in his piece about how we should feel bad for innocent Palestinians in Gaza. There is a reason that international law forbids sitting offensive weapons in high civilian areas and non-combatant areas such as hospitals. Maybe I will consider the civilian costs when the enemy stops hiding behind civilians. But if I'm getting lit up by some fucker whose hiding behind civilians what are my options?
But if I’m getting lit up by some fucker whose hiding behind civilians what are my options?
Shoot the journalists first. /sarc, sorta, maybe half.
Really sort of a "German Division in front of you vs. French Division behind you" sort of situation so, your call.
Over 2 million people in 16 sq. miles, I heard, in Gaza today. If the Palestinians are to take up arms against Israel, proximity to non-combatants is probably unavoidable. Maybe if the international lawyers gave them a larger prison camp, they could fight in a way that satisfies you.
"A large part of the reason that there will be so many civilian casualties in Gaza is because Hamas purposely sites military equipment"
A larger part is the IDF bombing Gaza.
"But if I’m getting lit up by some fucker whose hiding behind civilians what are my options?"
Hamas intends Israel to kill non-combatants. How about an option where Israel doesn't dance to Hamas' tune?
How about Hamas not attacking Israel. You know, that's always an option, yet Hamas won't take it.
International lawyers insist that occupied peoples have the right to resist their occupiers. And Palestinians have exercised that right long before Hamas existed and will likely continue to do so after their demise.
Once you start deliberating killing women and children you deserve everything you get.
Wow, so Jews deserved a country after they deliberately killed women and children in the 1930s and 1940s as part of their Zionist terrorist agenda. What a fucked up set of ethics you have.
Work on your reading comprehension skills, fuckhead.
Jews 'occupying' Judah. Those bastards.
>Jews deserved a country
Strange thing to type. The British gave them land they had control over, and now they must defend it.
Who deserves what is how a woman thinks.
Children, yes.
Women, it depends.
The Geneva Convention would seem to disagree. Those aren't very good lawyers then, because the Geneva Convention specifically excludes terrorist and armed civilians from protection. Hmmm.
Also even rebel forces are supposed to follow the laws of war, which Hamas blatantly didn't and has never done so.
"Also even rebel forces are supposed to follow the laws of war,"
Winning and gaining strategic advantage is more important than following the rules of law. They dressed themselves in IDF uniforms during their attack over the weekend, for example. A breach in the rules of war, I'm pretty sure. But it was that sort of tactic that allowed them to accomplish what they did.
And thy raped women to death and killed babies.
Get cancer.
Wearing uniforms and markers of the enemy is a breach of the rules of war. The baby killing, doesn't seem to be true. Propaganda, truth, the first casualty of war etc. The wearing of enemy uniforms is solid, there are photos, and a history of Hamas resorting to this illegal practice. They wore tunics, helmets and other gear.
Goddamn you’re fucking evil.
If you've nothing to say, Dance, dance, dance.
That's false. The First Geneva Convention protects civilians who spontaneously take up arms to repel an invasion.
You also neglected to mention that Protocol I outlaws indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations and destruction of food, water and other materials needed for survival. To be fair, though, Israel refused to sign.
What does the Geneva Convention say about targeting women and children, fuckbag?
You mean like Hamas did? Which removes them from all protection under the Geneva Convention. And no, what I stated is not false. Look it up dipshit.
"Which removes them from all protection under the Geneva Convention."
I don't think Hamas is seeking protection under the conventions. Rather, it appears their whole strategy is to provoke Israel into committing atrocities against the civilian population which may or may not break the rules of the convention. Who cares as long as the atrocities are seen and discussed around the world? I doubt very much Hamas thinks the conventions are any use to them at all. More likely they rely on rallying the Ummah, the world community of Islam. They do this with spectacular acts of courage, ingenuity and resistance, even if they contravene the conventions.
Killing babies and unarmed civilians is so courageous.
"Killing babies and unarmed civilians is so courageous."
Your feelings about the attack are largely irrelevant. I already stated the attacks are aimed at inspiring the 'Ummah,' the world's Muslim community who take Israel's actions, desecration of mosques, killing babies, etc. a lot more seriously than you do. They are doubtless also willing to overlook the crimes of Hamas, whether they be firing rockets from urban areas, wearing the uniforms of Israel, and will likely dismiss as black propaganda the charges of rape and murder that you bandy about.
Raping underage girls and then shooting them is so courageous.
The conventions signed in Geneva, Switzerland would not apply to hamas nor is there any enforcement of those agreements in the middle east.
Non uniformed personal who are not part of a recognized organization, terrorist and partisans are not protected by the Geneva Convention asshole. And anyone who breaks the rules also loses protection, i.e. targeting women and children like Hamas just did. And as for targeting food and water, that actually is in section 51 of the 1977 protocol, which provision one of that protocol was written in such a manner by the UN to keep Israel from receiving any protections. Basically, it isn't the Geneva Convention but an amendment you are quoting, which was basically written in such a manner as to exclude Israel. Which is one of the reasons the US and Israel have never ratified it.
You're asking for Israel to follow a protocol that starts out with wording that specifically targets Israel so that it receives no protection, you misquote it (it's not the first article it's the first protocol which is an addition after the original Geneva Convention and isn't universally recognized). Further, look at the countries that have signed it and you'll find several who have never honored any of the articles of the Geneva Convention at any time.
I don't get the impression that either Palestinians or Israelis are worried about what the Geneva Conventions say. I don't think the conventions shed much light on the conflict. Gaza is a small, densely populated place. The signatories of the conventions were large nations for the most part, certainly larger than Gaza, and had more spacious battlefields in mind than the one Hamas is confined to.
You don’t “get” anything you retarded fuck.
But perhaps this isn’t even an occupation by any traditional definition. That’s a question worth asking, is it not?
Israel pulled out of Gaza years ago. It's not occupied by them.
" It’s not occupied by them"
Have you mentioned this to the Palestinians? This could be a game changer.
Yes, I have. It turns out that they are not rational people.
You might have noticed this last weekend. Some people did some things. It was in the news.
Emotions rule the day. When anger, fear, hunger and blood lust rule the actions of a cramped open air prison with over 2 million inmates, bad things might happen. It should be obvious.
Israel can only control Israel behavior. Not Hamas behavior.
That's one of the problems of war. You THINK you control the enemy but you don't
Hamas intends Israel to kill non-combatants. How about an option where Israel doesn’t dance to Hamas’ tune?
They should just surrender to Hamas, that would really show them.
"They should just surrender to Hamas, that would really show them."
Letting Hamas pull the strings is not really showing them. Hamas is constantly provoking Israel into launching attacks on Gaza's civilian population and infrastructure. Yet every year, the population of Gaza increases and Hamas gets bolder and more sophisticated. Is this your idea of really showing them?
>prison camp
Surely you jest
And taking your comment further, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to hide 5500 to 6000 rockets in a city 1/3 the size of Dallas with twice the population Damn near every person in Gaza KNEW what was up. This is especially true when they HIDE the WEAPONS in Apartment Buildings, high Rise parking lots and businesses and warehouses in the middle of populated areas.
There were 20,000 people a DAY crossing from Gaza to Israel to work. You can not tell me that NOT ONE OF THEM KNEW? Why didn't someone report it if they cared about peace and wanted normalization? Try because they do NOT want that.
Media reports that OVER 2/3 of the population support Hamas, many of the balance support one of the other 4 or 5 terrorist organization in Gaza.
Possibly the BIGGER issue is that the ONLY people in Gaza that are innocent are the children under 10 or 11 years old. By 13 the boys are considered warriors already, the girls considered able to marry.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1712409699537072397?t=6tlZiJX1aL3x3p_kpfz_Zg&s=19
We have to make war to prove that we are stronger than the Jews,
says a little Palestinian schoolgirl in a Gaza school.
[Video]
>There were 20,000 people a DAY crossing from Gaza to Israel to work.
That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. You commute to israel via goat or cow. The commute to Jerusalem is pretty dangerous, it makes Compton look like a playground. They work so hard in Jerusalem.
You probably know me by now — that you should avoid military targets and hit civilians only. Plus take prisoners of them and torture them. Because it's so horrible. Be all the horror you can be, and maybe they won't strike the first blow.
So you are saying that innocent people held hostage are not really innocent. That those innocent people held hostage are really complicit enablers of the crimes of the hostage takers. So really they should be killed regardless.
Hella ethics you got there.
Do you try to come up with the dumbest misreads or does it come naturally?
During the final drive on Germany, German members of the Hitler Youth would use hand grenades and panzerfaust to attack allied troops because they knew that American and British soldiers had a hard time lighting up kids. After you see your buddy blown up by a twelve year old, you quickly lose that fear. You start worrying more about your survival than the morality of lighting up a kid carrying a hand grenade. It sucks big time, and the veterans had to deal with it afterwards but evil people will always use civilians and kids as meat shields. War isn't meant to be pretty, but sometimes it becomes necessary.
I wonder how stupid you have to be to think that the term "lighting up kids" is superior to the term "killing kids".
Shrike, are playing with a new sock?
I can tell you're a pansy shit that never served and would shit your pants if you actually had to do something other than shoot you uninformed ass off.
Also, did you read what I fucking wrote? These kids were trying to kill our troops. What other options did our troops have? Really? Another fucking idiot bleeding heart who lives in fairy land full of unicorn farts. And thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Especially those dumb soldiers.
You’re talking to a sock.
>German members of the Hitler Youth would use hand grenades and panzerfaust to attack allied troops because they knew that American and British soldiers had a hard time lighting up kids.
The lies about Nazis needs to stop.
Izzat 'chu, Herr Misek?
“…nor gives the dead the dignity they deserve.”
Get off’n yer arses and start giving the dead the dignity that they deserve, that they may become… The Grateful Dead! Then they will make GRATE music for us all! What a long, strange trip it's been!
I have indulged in LSD and I hate that band. Those hippy idiots are why so many guys are in jails.
Also, another note, modern warfare actually reduces the number of civilian casualties. Read about the suffering of civilians in the age of carpet bombings, or during the Napoleonic Wars, or during the Middle Ages. Then compare it today, and the difference is night and day. In modern combat, civilians actually tend to suffer far less than at any point in our history during war.
Prior to about the mid-19th century or so, and really until the mid-20th century, civilians were considered legitimate military targets, a resource that the enemy could draw on and also a means to pressure your enemy to end the conflict on your terms. Targeting things such as food to inflict famine was a common tactic, burning crops, destroying granaries, capturing shipments of food, poisoning wells, etc were all accepted forms of warfare. Matthew seems not to have read history if he thinks modern warfare is somehow uniquely horrible. He should maybe read a book about the 100 Years War or the Peninsula Campaign and then he would understand modern combat is far more sanitized, at least in the west, than at any point in our history.
Sixty years ago, to take out that rocket launcher inside a hospital wouldn't involve a missile taking out just that hospital, but fleets of bombers leveling the entire city and then maybe having a 1% chance of actually hitting the launcher. There is nothing uniquely horrible about modern combats impact on civilians. If anything it's lessened the horrors considerably compared even to our recent past.
+1 on all three comments. People like Matthew need to actually read history some time.
History is racist.
History is history. Regardless of Race there are many undeniable facts.
Most history is written by the victor. However, there is always a LOT of history written by the defeated and one can easily find it.
Race wars? hmm. Africa. S Africa. with the exception of Apartheid rebellions most of the RACE WARS in Africa are TRIBAL and black against black.
Race Wars? Hmm All of Islam against the Jews. hmm. wait....is that a race war? they are cousins according to history. Again..tribal? maybe?
Race Wars...the Russians against the Ukrainians....that is a RACE war, Russia attempting to starve them all to death right after WWII.
The problem you have is that war is generally never about RACE, it is about religion, tribal conflict or just plain hate. Politics and power are controlling factors but the rest is almost always there and used by those wanting the power.
>Race Wars…the Russians against the Ukrainians….that is a RACE war, Russia attempting to starve them all to death right after WWII.
Ukrainians use cryllic and are basically the slavs of Rus people.
Saying Putin is raging a race war is stupid, considering Napoleans army fought Rus over Crimea.
Ukrainians might as well be Russians to me.
That is utter horseradish.
With the exception of the Mongols and such deliberately killing everything en masse (eg firebombing), incidental civilian casualties as a % of total war casualties is remarkably stable.
The more precise our targeting capabilities, the more willing we are to pull the trigger in close quarters with civilians in proximity.
Eg in WW2, there were roughly 40,000 civilians killed by all German bombing of British cities during the 9 months of the Blitz. 2 million houses/units destroyed though those were all incidental damage.
In the 2021 attack on Gaza, a bit over one week, 58,000 houses/units destroyed with 300 dead (warnings given). This current one is obviously far bigger and will last longer. Obviously won’t even know the death toll for weeks at minimum. The number I've seen for housing destroyed so far is 200,000 though that sounds ridiculous
The numbers for the Aug 2022 and May 2023 attacks on Gaza are quite a bit lower. But of course none of any of those happened did they
Beevor's book on D Day is interesting. He shows how the democratic powers, mostly US and Britain were responsible for killing far more civilians caught in the cross fire than the Germans. The democracies used heavier artillery in denser areas. Beevor puts it down to squeamishness over taking casualties, erring on the side of caution, while totalitarians were more willing to take casualties.
Same seems to be the case in the fracas between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006. (various sources via wikipedia)
Israel soldier killed: 121
Israel civilian killed: 44
Lebanon soldiers killed: about 250
Lebanon civilians killed: about 1000
Way to cherry pick, dickhead. The Luftwaffe was not effective after 1941. Now do the sustained air campaign against Germany, Italy, Romania, Japan, China by the Japanese etc. Fucking pick a single data point is fucking lying by omissions. See the fire bombing of Tokyo. The destruction of Hamburg and Berlin. The Battle of Britain, for the first half, was targeted mostly at British Airfields, which tended to be less urbanized. It didn't change to urban targets until after August. By ignoring the strategic bombing conducted by the allies, you're creating a false impression of the impact of warfare on civilians during that period. In other words, your lying. Which is par for the course for you.
Or just look back to the Viet Nam conflict.
Not to mention centuries of Siege Warfare being the bread and butter of conflict. I guess there’s Leningrad in WWII, but modern folks haven’t had many examples of this military reality in recent years.
900 days doesn’t seem like a long time does it?
"Not to mention centuries of Siege Warfare being the bread and butter of conflict. "
Have you read The Art of War by Sun Tzu? Worth the read, short, accessible and interesting. Of all the forms warfare takes, the lowest, least desirable is besieging a walled city. To be avoided at all costs. Granted the book was written before aircraft and artillery but still the point has some relevance today. Incidentally, the highest form of warfare, if memory serves, is breaking up your enemy's alliances. Still relevant today.
Read about the suffering of civilians in the age of carpet bombings, or during the Napoleonic Wars, or during the Middle Ages.
Or any time, really.
Caesar's legions were in no mood to spare any of the 40,000 Gauls within Avaricum, especially after 25 days of short rations and great frustration. Only 800 managed to escape the massacre that followed.
Petti, we get the atrocities of war and we also get the greater atrocities of terrorism. We (Americans) remember 9-11. What is your recollection of that? Both sides? The “palestinians” and their proxies funded by Iran and other Islamic Nazis should not keep getting a “second” chance. The “religion of peace” (when? I think from 1100-1300 and I’m estimating) has for the majority of its Imams and other spiritual leaders throughout it’s history always advocated for Jihad and world domination. It started with “the Prophet”. Delightful fellow. It’s not a religion of peace or one of the 3 great religions. And most of us realize this. They need a reformation either by having an awakening or having it induced upon them.
1100-1300, destroyed the crusader states, invaded southeast Europe, laid siege multiple times to Constantinople. Fought constant border conflicts with the unconquered portions of Galacia and Northern Portugal. Extended their conquests of India. But peaceful enough compared to the periods before and after that, I suppose.
There was a golden age of Islam with much academic toleration where Islamic, Christian and Jewish scholars contributed to the knowledge base, translated Greek and Roman literature and mathematics was advanced with the "founding" of Algebra. It was a period of relative religious "tolerance" compared the the earlier periods during Muhammad's rule and occurred after the two islamic civil wars. From what I skimmed through from Bernard Lewis and John Esposito this was when the center of Islam was in Baghdad primarily in the 800's not the later time period I basically guessed at.
Islam, by its own account, is only peaceful within the House of Peace (the Dar-al-Islam), which is by definition areas where Muslims are not ruled by non-Muslims.
Everywhere else is the Dar-al-Harb, the House of War. No peace there.
There is, in fact, an entirely unsubtle difference between people who deliberately kill unarmed civilians at a festival promoting peace, and people who kill unarmed civilians when going after the first group because people in the first group are using unarmed civilians as human shields.
There should indeed be "no off-ramp" in dealing with people in the first group; they need to die, both to prevent them from doing it again and to deter others from the same path. Any conclusion to these events that leaves any part of Gaza under Hamas's administration is itself an atrocity.
Correct. Too many people on the far left and far right don't get this. The author is one of them.
There should indeed be “no off-ramp” in dealing with people in the first group; they need to die, both to prevent them from doing it again and to deter others from the same path.
Yup. There's absolutely a case, even several, to be made that it should not be American boots on the ground but, Fullbright retarded as Petti is, if Rubio was making that argument, Petti doesn't specifically mention it.
What we see is sanitized, thanks to laws that directly limit what the press can show us. That's why pictures of dead guys are blurred or pixelated.
I think Americans might think differently about war if laws didn't prevent media from showing the whole truth.
It’s called respect for the dead.
It's called bread and circuses.
What would change about your view of war if the pictures weren't blurred?
Me? Who cares? What about your friends and neighbors? Ok, neighbors?
I don’t think there is any shortage of war porn. Even if it is not photos.
A daily news cycle and limbic system manipulation of the story creates the porn. Idk what might really sober it and sadden it. Make the tragedy real. But I just don’t believe it would be photos. That just seems like adding more voyeurism and porn.
By calling it porn you illustrate what I'm saying. People have a reaction.
Shielding average people from the actual horror of war makes them less likely to doubt the government and go against the flow.
The main impact I see is whether reactions become more limbic - more emotional, instinctive, reactive, basic. Once that happens, it's no longer possible for reactions to become or remain cortical - rational, contemplative, learning, etc
I don't think it's the external thing -the picture we see or sense. It's the part of the brain that processes the info. That's what determines how we respond and thus that is what matters.
Whether we are seeing photos or not - I don't see much rational or calmish thought occurring when we are faced with 'war decisions '
>By calling it porn you illustrate what I’m saying. People have a reaction.
Basically
>Shielding average people from the actual horror of war makes them less likely to doubt the government and go against the flow.
Watching the Syrian civil war live is something I won't forget. I have sympathy toward Russian for stopping that barbarianism, something older Americans will never understand.
War on our own soil might sober us up.
Women & children have been killed in almost every modern war, ie the Philippines by the Japanese, Carpet bombing & does Napalm ring a bell?
Women & children have been killed in almost every modern war.
Yes, we bombed thousands of babies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Why is the reality of war a divine revelation to these people?
Resolution is only possible by complete expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza. Bemoan the immorality of it all you want, it is what it is.
Israel is more powerful. Israel controls the territory. They've given the Palestinians a parcel of land to live among themselves. The Palestinians won't accept living with or next to Israelis. That hasn't changed in 75 years.
At the same time, Jews can stfu with this "never again" shit, constantly crying victim, and demands that we value Israelis more than Americans.
https://twitter.com/leadpacer/status/1712641432920469954?t=qOGHD7b1oLMvXN9Th6hm-w&s=19
This guy is seething with anger and resentment towards "the West."
This attempt to use coded language doesn't fly.
Everyone with a brain understands what Ben is saying.
He is no fan of European peoples.
We get it, Ben.
You hate us.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/relevantmena/status/1712624335163420851?t=VnlSym0R18ra3zShvVnxnA&s=19
I will make a good-faith response to Ben Shapiro’s argument here and address the broader question of Israel and America more seriously.
Shapiro is right that Tucker’s comparison would be glib if the standards applied to Israel and America were the same. However, Tucker’s bigger point is that this occurs in a context where American politicians and media figures do not just sympathize with Israel but obsequiously worship it and enable its self-interested actions while simultaneously denying the same to their own citizens.
For instance, one of the main justifications for Israel’s endless military occupation of the West Bank with all the brutality and “human rights violations” this entails, is that annexing it and granting the Arabs living there citizenship would threaten to make Jews a minority ethnic group in their own state. This is a reasonable concern for Israel to have, but it is also notably one that a White American or native European is rendered fully unemployable and even put in prison for daring to express about their own nation.
Nobody has a problem with sending messages of support to literally anybody after major terrorist attacks. What they have a problem with is when their own political figures do not just tolerate but specially fund things like borders, policing, and demographic stability abroad while at the same time lecturing anybody who wants those same goods at home on how they are racist and evil because of it.
Shapiro is far from the worst offender in this regard, and despite old tweets about how he “doesn’t care about the browning of America,” is actually far more willing to criticize mass immigration, street crime, etc. than most others in the media. But there are endless examples of neoconservatives of the Bill Kristol or Jennifer Rubin variety who don’t hesitate to express virulent hatred for native Whites all the while demanding endless defense budget for the same supposedly racist policies to be implemented on behalf of their own ethnic group. And even noticing that they do this in public is then itself condemned as nascent antisemitism and made the basis for yet further libels and social ostracism.
If such people acknowledged that a certain number of “kids in cages” or George Floyds are the price to be paid for American citizens to live a normal life, there would be no problem. But instead they all too often lecture White people on how they have to apologize for their complicity in unjustifiable crimes before immediately voice cracking and starting to sing Hebrew hymns when their own ethnostate gets attacked, and then try to destroy anyone’s life who hints that their loyalties are even divided, if not firmly on the side of Israel.
Someone like Tucker agrees that Israel has a right to exist and engage in morally difficult actions in order to ensure that existence. His only point, and one which Shapiro should acknowledge more clearly, is that the very same nations sending Israel money and weapons to pursue that project have an emphatic right to pursue it for themselves as well.
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>This is a reasonable concern for Israel to have, but it is also notably one that a White American or native European is rendered fully unemployable and even put in prison for daring to express about their own nation.
Here's the problem: America is a nation of immigrants. We weren't supposed to be, it was not in the founding documents, but here we are.
I draw a difference between America and Europe. Euros have every right to ensure the majority of European. Israel has the right to ensure the majority of Jew.
America is the whole of Babylon, and I do not see any way out of this problem.
"The Palestinians won’t accept living with or next to Israelis. That hasn’t changed in 75 years."
There are plenty who do. Bedouins, Christians, Muslims, etc. Always have. Over 2 million today, including Arab members of the Knesset. Pretending otherwise is not going to make a solution to the conflict any easier.
This story is kind of shitty, and is only saved from being really shitty because it remains brief enough to stay in a neutrally vague area. If Matthew had written more, being more specific and explicit about details and explaining his arguments better, I'd likely find this even worse than I do, but I have to leave some benefit of the doubt that he might have corrected some issues if he'd gone into more depth.
Like this:
All this debate around beheadings seemed to miss a more fundamental point: that children were killed.
What he's missing, either by failing to go into depth or by oversight, is that there's not necessarily a fascination with the gory or lurid nature of one thing, compared to the specific targeting. You can be aiming at a rocket launch site and unfortunately a baby gets killed in the crossfire, but your intentionality makes some difference. If babies were beheaded, it shows some level of deliberateness and targeting. And it simply takes more time. Yes, we place that within the moral calculus when we weigh which side is more justified in a conflict. It doesn't necessarily mean we're callous to the collateral damage that is inherent in the conflict.
If one side is more justified than the other in a conflict, that is absolutely part of the story and not something to be skimmed over. "War is bad, m'kay," is a great sentiment, but people who are being attacked unjustly don't have a choice about whether they're involved in a war.
British-Palestinian doctor Ghassan Abu-Sittah described a 14-year-old girl with burns all over her body from an airstrike. Burn treatment is already an excruciating process, and because doctors ran out of antiseptic, they had to clean her wounds with regular soap.
I mean, yes, this is horrifying and terrible. But Israel has some conditions for releasing aid back into Gaza: release the hostages. As a demand, that is eminently reasonable-people were kidnapped and dragged across a border, held at gunpoint, and Hamas has threatened to execute them on camera. Israel's demand is "Maybe don't do that, let them go, and we'll turn the electricity back on and send medicine."
Is it fair that Israel inflicted misery back on innocents and civilians in the Gaza strip after Hamas attacked? Perhaps not. But it's retaliatory action, and it has a chance to undermine their enemies by driving a wedge between the population and the terrorists.
The image of war as an alien, savage act is much more comforting for the people who do not have to live through it.
I don't see how this is anything other than a net positive, actually. People who don't have to live through war in the home country should see the most despicable and brutal things that happen in wars. Perhaps that discourages them from turning a blind eye when their own country is involved in one. Maybe the argument is that focusing excessively on small details makes us forget that the US seems unable to stop being involved in overseas wars, but if so, it's poorly written out here.
Palestinian critics often complain that American media is much quicker to accept Israeli allegations about Palestinian crimes than Palestinian allegations about Israeli crimes.
Okay, perhaps that fair but: are we being one-sided here? Mr. Petti, surely you're aware that there's a ton of people in the US who are openly anti-Israel, to the point that they don't believe Israel should be allowed to exist. To the point that there are people cheering the massacres and the explicit videos of the executions of innocent Israelis. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been assimilated into the culture war for a long time already, and some people are willing to cheer on absolutely any action taken as long as the "bad" side suffers. That's also part of the story here, and yet the only thing you're mentioning is that some Palestinians think the American media is slow to believe Israel commits atrocities. (If anything, I think the media skew might be a bit overly open to the idea that Israel is villainous, but that's partially my own bias playing on it).
an Israeli user wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter. She said she could not speak for Palestinians, "but for Israeli Jews (and non-Jews that always suffer equally as unintended targets) it is emotionally disturbing to hear ourselves described as defiled corpses."
This quote is also kind of stupid. Ma'am, we're not talking you, obviously, when we're talking about defiled corpses. We're talking about the actual corpses that (may) have been defiled. Most Americans, despite all the flak I might give them, are able to draw a distinction between all of Israel and those Israelis who are actual victims. Maybe you wish we'd run more uplifting stories about the fantastic people these humans were in life before they died but, to be frank, those stories are generally uninteresting, and really run counter to the actual horror of murderous bands of Palestinians who might be hunting out infants and chopping their heads off. I'd rather actually pointing the horrible thing than downplaying it with uplifting stories of the woman who held off attackers by serving them cookies, or whatever the hell that was.
We do tend to be drawn to the most horrible and disturbing details. This isn't limited to the lurid and gory-there's a reason you saw many stories about a US airstrike that killed an Afghan family in a car loaded up with cases of water: it's because some actions are simply more justifiable than others. There's nothing wrong with being swayed by focusing on the consequences of unjustified aggression.
Beeped words, blurred video, censorship at the source, is MSM, i.e., main stream media. Watching is self-deceiving, self-indoctrination. It starts at childhood with forced indoctrination. If successful. you don't mature cognitively. For example, you believe "The Most Dangerous Superstition" by Larken Rose.
I consider myself a libertarian but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have supported America’s entry into world world 2. Sometimes there is an imperative, both morally and politically, to warrant support and both the Israel and Ukraine wars warrant our support and aid.
Wrong.
Yes you are so correct. Those that say "no" are the ones that have either never read history or never understood history. I can tell you that IF we allow the genocide against Ukraine that started immediately after WWII and murdered 25,000 people a day to continue now we are evil as Russia is.
If we allow the genocide of the Hebrews (now known as Jews) then we are as evil as Hitler.
I have not been able to verify, but it seems that a Palistinian leader was the one that convinced Hitler to begin the "final solution" against the Jews. If so then history tells us what and who the problem really is.
"If we allow the genocide of the Hebrews (now known as Jews) then we are as evil as Hitler."
Shut the fuck up, faggot.
You're literally cancer.
AAlthough Haj Amin Al-Husseini was in favor of Hitler's "Final Solution," he was not the inspiration, contrary to Netanyahu.
Hitler had over 3000+ years of previous inspiration from Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Rome, oth Catholic and Protestant Christendom, Islam, English and Continental Monarchs, the Czars, the Ottomans versus the Armenians, and even the Communists.
> consider myself a libertarian but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have supported America’s entry into world world 2.
There are still Americans who wonder why we entered that war. Hindsight is 20/20.
>Sometimes there is an imperative, both morally and politically, to warrant support and both the Israel and Ukraine wars warrant our support and aid.
Wrong. Just wrong. When hamas is using rockets sold to them by Ukrainians, it becomes clear how stupid you people are.
Izzat 'chu, Herr Misek?
https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1712562045147889790?t=H2wWw3NeaPvpnIqD1PsS6g&s=19
"I salute Hamas. A job well done. When I heard the news, I smiled!"
Philly crowd roars and applauds.
Are you ready for what’s coming?
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IF the FBI was doing their job there would be instant arrests for giving aid and comfort to terrorists.
The problem is that free speech ends at yelling "fire" in a theater. It ends at sporting murder and rape and pillaging, taking innocents as hostage, and supporting indiscriminate rocket bombing. This is no longer about free speech, this is about that man who just made himself part of a terrorist movement. Where is the FBI? They arrest patios and let terrorist supporters walk about?
I continue to be baffled by the Hamas strategy here. I assume the goal was the hostages to be exchanged for their guys. But that could have been accomplished without murdering a bunch of people at a music festival. At this point I don't think Israel has any options that don't include wiping them out. If they were expecting other Arab nations to back them up they should have gotten it in writing because at this point all they're getting is lip service. I'm left to think they're not particularly bright. Or there is a larger picture that I'm missing.
It's entirely possible they had no goals beyond "let's kill a shitload of Israelis and embarass the hell out of their security system"
"without murdering a bunch of people at a music festival"
They are young Israelis, and reservists in the IDF trained to kill Palestinians. One day they dance, the next day they fire missiles into Gaza from afar. It's an uncomfortable reality, but Hamas plays for keeps.
And the babies they murdered were going to grow up to be draftees in the Israeli army, so they had it coming too?
Sorry, not buying it. Revolutionary militants rebel against the armed forces oppressing them, not innocent children.
Reservists are not civilians. Young Israelis are reservists trained to kill Palestinians. Not a pleasant thought I admit, that one day they are dancing in a peace festival and the next they are trying to kill Palestinians. As far as I know babies were not in attendance at the peace festival.
So, now your argument is that these partygoers were legitimate military targets because some of them might have been Israeli reservists?
We have video of the terrorists shooting defenseless people lying face down on the ground, point blank, in the back.
We have video of them parading naked, broken, lifeless bodies of young women around like they just returned from safari.
We have video of these assholes butchering clearly non-Israeli foreign workers with garden implements.
What about the grandmothers who were taken hostage or burned alive in their homes? Maybe they were former reservists from 50 years ago - legit targets, right?
"So, now your argument is that these partygoers were legitimate military targets because some of them might have been Israeli reservists?"
Hamas sees Israelis as enemies occupying their land. They are angry, vicious, vengeful and desperate. They are the same group that shocked the world by perpetrating suicide bombing on Israelis a few years back. They've never fought according to Western expectations.
I don't think that your argument that some Israeli targets are legitimate and others aren't holds any water with Hamas.
Don't be surprised at anything this asshole says. He once called Hitler's Anti-Semitism "a pose."
Some "pose." It ended up murdering 6 million Jews.
I agree that it has little to do with hostages. I do think it has to do with the strategy for Israel to make peace with Arab leaders by throwing Palestinians under the bus. Though I don't really understand how that is supposed to unfold.
It seems like they must have predicted a severe military response from Israel. Killing a thousand innocent people in brutal fashion is not something that makes you give up and give in to demands. It sparks punitive action where thousands will die, including everyone associated with the attack, anyone who helped them, and anyone who gets in the way (guilty or innocent.)
The only real end goal could have been drawing some of the other Arab nations, or Iran, into a bigger war with Israel. But either way, no one in Hamas will be left alive to see what happens.
"But either way, no one in Hamas will be left alive to see what happens."
A fitting end considering suicide bombing was how they entered the conflict.
>I continue to be baffled by the Hamas strategy here.
Don't let it baffle you. They don't have a strategy. They want Israel gone. They do plan assaults and attacks, with zero endgame.
What I will say, is anyone talking about conventions of war (Geneva) had best remember that those conventions were signed in Switzerland by europeans, and I doubt a single hamas even knows where Switzerland is on a map.
Kill them all and let god sort them out
All because some kids wanted to throw some rocks at the French soldiers.
https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1712601465179554265?t=wrk51dgxZjHjnPQcDUBbxA&s=19
The colleges hired left wing terrorists like Bill Ayers yet people are still surprised by what’s happening on campus this week lol
Where did you think this was heading, Normie Norm? Seriously? Where?
https://twitter.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/1712622408316694603?t=2R-9-KvU9IU9In-AlArRaQ&s=19
UNC, where a statue memorializing students who died fighting for the confederacy was considered so offensive that they tore it down.
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https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1712597946691182838?t=ZxMGxJA6c5vSYnm8aSsx5Q&s=19
The worst part is, they are going to an UNRWA school. Their education is paid for by the United Nations.
United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine
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https://twitter.com/BuceesUSA/status/1712464661726261524?t=lSRyBDHiJFRJbvSHSl7cqg&s=19
I have a solution
[Pic]
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1712643724339974275?t=C5RpsmQpgGOKJ0pyoIX3JQ&s=19
The LAPD is increasing patrols to protect potential soft targets after Hamas put out a call for Muslims across the world to commit jihad in support of Palestine on Friday, Oct. 13. Meanwhile, American leftist groups continue to organize Palestine rallies featuring antisemitic chants, speeches & support for terrorism.
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Let's not forget that the people in Gaza selected Hamas to represent them.
You know who else was democratically elected?
>>The dead are still being counted in Israel and Palestine
Correction, they're still being counted in Israel. Nobody cares about the "Palestinians" - whoever they're supposed to be. (I think you meant Hamas?)
>>Palestinian critics often complain that American media is much quicker to accept Israeli allegations about Palestinian crimes than Palestinian allegations about Israeli crimes.
Because "Palestinians" are well-known highly-recorded and very proud-to-be terrorists.
There's a very easy solution for the Hamas Government in the Gaza Strip:
Surrender. Now. Release all hostages, lay down your weapons, and cease hostilities.
Why aren't your asking them to do that to reduce the bloodshed on both sides? The IDF doesn't want to go into Gaza on foot, because there will be high losses for them. They will anyway because that's the only way to achieve the goal of removing Hamas without completely leveling the city.
Hamas is not a political power, an army, or even a group of terrorists. They are a gang of murderers and rapists and should be rounded up, tried, and executed. Anyone not cooperating in handing them over should be warned that they are likely to become collateral damage.
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Sorry, nice try, but I'm going to fixate on the atrocities in this case, because they are so far beyond the pale of civilized society, and even beyond the pale of civilized society at war. Counter to the assertion of 32 Harvard student groups, nothing Israel has done to Palestinians in the past could in anyway justify what Hamas did to hundreds of innocent men, women, girls, boys and babies. I just don't recall the last time Israel sent in armed men to murder innocent unarmed children.
If it bleeds is leads. When everything is bleeding you gotta find the bloodiest aspect to lead.
"Asked if there was a way to defeat Hamas without endangering Palestinian civilians ..."
Reason writers themselves feed into the "lurid" approach by calling a counterattack by the IDF "retribution." This is a war like any other war. Although any rational person would want to avoid ALL wars whenever possible, Hamas declared war on Israel and Israel will, as usual, defeat Hamas. In war innocent civilians are always victims. There is no such thing as limited war anymore. Anyone who commits atrocities during a war is a criminal and should be charged, tried and, if convicted, punished for the crimes they committed! This war is no different from any other war in that respect.
opopopbjf
Instead of regurgitating popular talking points, its useful to do actual research and ask relevant questions. With one notable operational exception the IDFs overall-historic military-civilian casualty ratio is actually modestly lower than that of the United States military. And, comparing this campaign to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, which included Fallujah, Saudr City, and other heavy urban combat encounters, the ratios thus far are in the margin of error. Its time our media stopped reciting mantras and actually reported facts, and our presidents stopped lecturing the Israelis about civilian casualties and the laws of war when our record is no better and may, in the analysis, actually be slightly worse. US drone strikes on weddings, anyone?
Why is Evil ever Good's problem? If Good just ignores it, Evil will probably just go away/resolve itself, am I right?
You can convince me that there are evil Palestinians, but you will never convince me there are good Israelis.
So your dichotomy is not valid
You know who else liked Hegel?