Can an Unconstitutional Law Force You To Sell Your Home to a Private Investor?
A zombie law, thrown out in court, continues to wreak havoc because it’s referenced in a contract.

Can the law force you to sell your home to other property owners? What if that law was declared unconstitutional after you agreed to be bound by legislation in place at the time? Those questions, along with the security of private property, are at stake in a case before the Arizona Supreme Court.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Outvoted by One Property Owner
In 2018, Jie Cao and Haining Xia purchased a condominium at Dorsey Place in Tempe, Arizona. Over time, PFP Dorsey, an investment company, acquired 90 of the 96 units in the complex. According to the covenants, conditions, and restrictions (CC&Rs) that applied to the complex, owners were subject to state regulations regarding condominiums, and each unit had one vote within the association. That meant that PFP Dorsey controlled 90 out of 96 votes.
At the time, Arizona law (Section 33-1228) allowed an 80 percent supermajority (later increased to 95 percent) to terminate a condominium agreement and to "provide that all the common elements and units of the condominium shall be sold following termination." PFP Dorsey exercised its votes to force the remaining individual owners to sell their units to the investment company.
Outraged, Jie Cao and Haining Xia sued.
"Defenders of Arizona's law say it's necessary to prevent the 'holdout problem'—property owners who supposedly strategically refuse to sell at market price to compel extra compensation. In theory, such holdouts hinder economic development projects and their alleged trickle‐down effects," comment Anastasia P. Boden and Nathaniel Lawson of the Cato Institute. "The fact that some people would rather see private property go to a supposed 'better use' can't justify confiscating it. The Founders were very worried that private interests might coopt government power for their own ends."
Unconstitutional on Its Face
Arizona, it should be noted, has strong protections for private property. Article 2, Section 17 of the state constitution states, in part: "Private property shall not be taken for private use, except for private ways of necessity, and for drains, flumes, or ditches, on or across the lands of others for mining, agricultural, domestic, or sanitary purposes." That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for private parties to use the law to force other people to sell their homes. That's certainly how the courts saw it.
"A statute that authorizes a private party to take another party's property constitutes a taking," the Arizona Court of Appeals ruled last year. "Without an exception to the general rule, A.R.S. §33-1228 is unconstitutional on its face."
So, that means all is A-OK with the world, right? Well, if you're a generic condo owner in Arizona, that's mostly true (N.B.: Condominium associations are for people who think HOAs aren't a big enough pain in the ass). But it's not so great for Jie Cao and Haining Xia because the ruling contained a sting.
"When the Xias bought their unit in January 2018, they agreed to be bound by the Declaration, which grants the Association the 'rights, powers and duties as are prescribed by the Condominium Act,'" argued the court. "A forced termination and sale under the statute is unconstitutional but for an owner's contractual agreement under the declaration."
So, the Xias are out of luck, because they contractually agreed to be bound by the law as it stood when they signed. The law at that time allowed for forced sales, and tough shit for them that the provision was later ruled unconstitutional.
"That ruling violates common sense," argues Timothy Sandefur, vice president for legal affairs of Arizona's Goldwater Institute, which has filed an amicus brief in the appeal to the state's supreme court. "While it's true that contracts are typically interpreted as including whatever law is in existence at the time the contract is made—a principle lawyers call lex loci contractus—that principle does not extend to laws that are unconstitutional. The reason is that an unconstitutional law isn't a law at all—it's a legal nullity."
The Cato Institute filed a separate amicus brief also supporting the plaintiffs.
"Cao has explained why she did not, in fact, agree to these statutory terms by signing the contract," the brief argues. "But even if Cao did agree, that would not make § 33-1228 of the Condominium Act constitutional—it would only mean that there is a separate private contract containing terms identical to those in the statute." And contractually binding people to an unconstitutional law shouldn't put that law into force.
Arizona's Supreme Court Hears the Case
Fortunately, the Arizona Supreme Court sees that there are significant legal questions raised by this case. It agreed to hear oral arguments over the state of the law and whether private contracts can breathe life into statutes that have been found unconstitutional. Of particular interest in this case, the court wants to address the questions:
- Does A.R.S. § 33-1228 authorize the taking of private property for private use in violation of Article 2, § 17 of the Arizona Constitution?
- If a contract incorporates an unconstitutional statute by reference, are the terms of that statute enforceable as to the contracting parties?
In the court's hands are protections for private property—people's homes in particular. The justices will also decide whether zombie laws found to violate constitutional protections continue to lead an undead existence, wreaking havoc, if people sign contracts binding them to statutes in effect at a specific point in time. Also resting on the outcome is the confidence of the plaintiffs, two immigrants from China who sought freedom in the United States.
"This is a country ruled by law, that is why I studied law in the first place, but this gave me some disillusionment," Cao, who has a law degree from New York University, told the Arizona Mirror.
Keep your eye out for the Arizona Supreme Court's ultimate ruling to see just how secure private property is, and just how safely you can dismiss laws ruled unconstitutional. While you're waiting, you might want to dig through the various contracts you've signed and ponder just how many statutes you've agreed to abide by without really knowing what they require or whether they're still in effect for the wider world, and for you in particular.
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Ask Susette Kelo about that.
I believe she'd tell these folks that they're fucked.
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Kelo is the state taking things.
This is about private individuals having agreed to private terms forcing a private sale.
The state taking things on behalf of a private company. Only a slight difference.
Still wrong. The Christian Political Police State is authorized by Almighty Providence to use Faith-based asset forfeiture to fund police departments and the DEA under the Harrison Act, Volstead Act and Eighteenth Amendment.
This comment is pretty squirrelsy.
What does prohibition have to do with a contract dispute?
It's Hankie. Apparently so many people muted his libertariantranslator sock that he had to start a new one so somebody would play with.
Maybe. He's pre-blocked for me, so he must have been a name change of some sort.
What exactly is the point of socking when you literally keep using the exact same copypasta, Hankie, you demented, senile, worthless, subhuman sack of cunt mucus?
There is a huge difference.
These condo owners agreed to the conditions. Nobody is "taking" anything from them. People are simply insisting on compliance with the contract they signed.
They agreed to obey the law as the law was at the time. Since then the law has been changed. So the 'agreement' is null.
You don't have to "agree to obey the law", you are required to do that.
The law has been changed, but their condo association still falls under the old rules.
And the court didn't invalidate the provisions themselves, the court simply said that the state cannot impose these conditions on private parties without the conditions being explicitly agreed to in the contract; the parties explicitly agreed to the conditions in the contract.
Finally, from a practical point of view, you really don't want to live in a condo building in which 80% of the condos are owned by a single corporation intent on selling the entire building, since they control all the maintenance and management of the building.
Well, they agreed to the condo association having the 'rights, powers and duties as are prescribed by the Condominium Act'. This sounds like it's a complex law with lots of provisions. I'm sure many of these provisions are interpreted by the courts, and the parties to the condo contract are bound by those rulings.The courts interpreted one particular provision as a nullity because it's unconstitutional. It's unclear to me why *that* particular ruling should be ignored.
The mention of the Condominium Act is very generic. It seems like a "yep, this is a contract of the type such that this law applies, and our company is the party which takes the role of condo association under this law" provision. I don't think this provision means the parties had any particular intent that the contract would resurrect provisions of that law found unconstitutional. That seems like the sort of thing you'd mention in the contract a little more explicitly.
And I'd resolve any ambiguities in favor of the party who *didn't* write the contract.
Yes, and that gets to the key of the court's decision. The court said that the law couldn't implicitly impose such conditions on buyers. But since buyers explicitly agreed to the terms as spelled out in the law, they are bound by it.
When I bought my condos in different states, the contracts contained similar language, and of course I looked up the legislation.
Finally, neither of these parties wrote the contract; both parties to the dispute are just condo owners.
Quite frankly I don't know why anybody in their right mind would want to own or live in one of those condos. Or one of those gated communities with HOA. Gotta love those HOA Karens.
Sounds like PFP Dorsey wants to become another Blackrock. when 90% of all housing in America is owned by one huge corporate structure, then what happens.
This must be stopped.
Condo living has lots of benefits, and you need an HOA and CC&Rs to manage them.
If you're a libertarian, you better get used to HOAs and CC&Rs, because that's what replaces much of government in a libertarian society.
I have no idea what their corporate objectives are. But buying 90% of the units in a building and then dissolving the HOA and selling the building is a perfectly reasonable business strategy.
IANAL, but isn't it the case that if a law is found to be unconstitutional, that finding is retroactive? Said another way, I thought any law that was found to be unconstitutional is considered to have never been a law. Is that not the case?
Or perhaps the treatment is different in each state?
As far as I can tell, the court didn't find "the law" to be unconstitutional; what it found to be unconstitutional was the imposition of these terms onto private contracts without being explicitly mentioned in the contract.
Since this contract actually explicitly incorporates the terms of the law by reference, the court's decision doesn't apply. That appears to be the reasoning of the court according to this very article, and it seems like sound reasoning to me.
Did the condo owners knowingly agree to these conditions? Or was the citation of the law a way to sneak in provisions that were not apparent in the text of the contract itself, and that would have been unacceptable to many of the prospective condo purchasers?
Most people don't know the exact words of a law, and would not fully understand it even if you put the text right in front of them. Even a lawyer would have to look it up, and then often has to do hours or even days of research to understand the many ways court precedents have reinterpreted the law .
Depends on the condo association owning the land underneath the building. Otherwise, the entire development is a trailer park paying rent for a fixed condo.
Kelo didn't sign a contract agreeing to allow other people to steal her property. These idiots did.
In days of yore it was common to add clauses to real estate sales, "I am selling you this property, but on condition that, in perpetuity, it may never be sold to black people." Such clauses have been declared to be null and void.
Are the power pigs now proposing that these clauses should rise from the grave? After all, the buyers signed contracts!
Not defending that practice at all, because it is pretty gross, but there are additional rules against perpetuities that would negate most of that nonsense. In most US jurisdictions, perpetual contracts are enforceable only for a limit of 90 years from creation, while many of the others will pick some identifiable person (often a young British royal) alive at the time of the signing and then be valid until 21 years after their death. It's an interesting little bit of contract law really, but long story short: those actions are usually way past enforceable now anyway. There are no truly indefinite contracts.
No, sarcasmic, it was not common at all, and as n00bdragon points out, also not enforceable even at the time. You should keep your cock holster shut so you avoid humiliating yourself every fucking day you drunken fucking masochist.
https://mappingprejudice.umn.edu/racial-covenants/what-is-a-covenant
"Racial covenants can be found in the property records of every American community. These restrictive clauses were inserted into property deeds to prevent people who were not White from buying or occupying land."
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So you think that a black neighborhood or Chinatown shouldn't be able to maintain its character through "racial covenants"? Why not?
How do you feel about the racial exclusions underlying Indian reservations?
"So you think that a black neighborhood or Chinatown shouldn’t be able to maintain its character through “racial covenants”?"
Correct. And I doubt any reasonable person would argue otherwise.
"How do you feel about the racial exclusions underlying Indian reservations?"
You mean the sovereign land of a Native American tribe, as established by treaties with the United States government?
I think there are a lot of laws and precedent about what can or can't be done on tribal land that basically boils down to: it's almost always up to the tribe. If a tribe wants to allow non-tribal people to purchase tribal land, they can. If they don't want to, they don't have to.
I believe you have mentioned that you are an immigrant from a former Soviet country, so you may not know how weird and seemingly contradictory Native American issues can be.
Well, I guess I'm not a reasonable person then. Libertarianism generally does not interfere in private contracts, even if those private contracts involve racial discrimination. Racial discrimination by private actors has never been a serious issue in the US.
Correct: ethno-national states whose racist laws contradict fundamental principles of US governance.
As a rule, in dealing with other sovereign states, we strongly oppose racist and discriminatory laws.
I know exactly how "weird and seemingly contradictory Native American issues can be"; and one thing in particular that is weird is that we tolerate and support racist and socialist governments in the midst of the US, far beyond what we would be obligated to support under our treaties.
"Racial discrimination by private actors has never been a serious issue in the US."
Jim Crow would disagree.
"Correct: ethno-national states whose racist laws contradict fundamental principles of US governance."
And, as a sovereign nation, they have that right due to treaties signed by the US government. You can restate it in as many sinister-sounding ways as you want, it doesn't change the facts.
"As a rule, in dealing with other sovereign states, we strongly oppose racist and discriminatory laws."
And yet our opposition is irrelevant to a sovereign nation. Weird.
"one thing in particular that is weird is that we tolerate and support racist and socialist governments in the midst of the US, far beyond what we would be obligated to support under our treaties."
And yet it isn't weird at all. It isn't "far beyond what we would be obligated to support". It's exactly what we are obligated to support. The rule of law is the rule of law. There isn't any "unless we don't like it" clause.
Cultural conservatives just can't seem to wrap their brains around that fact, which is why they are so often at odds with libertarian principles.
It’s called the “Jim Crow LAWS” because this was government mandated discrimination.
A libertarian would understand that widespread, harmful racial discrimination is highly unlikely in a free market, and that it did not occur in US history. You're no libertarian, you believe progressive nonsense.
Theoretically they are, but the US government doesn’t actually treat them that way.
Furthermore, even if they were treated as sovereign nations, they would not have the right to many other benefits we currently bestow upon them. For example, the US would be perfectly within its right to outlaw dual citizenship for members of sovereign Indian tribes, since having ongoing allegiance to a racist, ethnocentric nation is arguably incompatible with US citizenship.
You’re not a libertarian, so what would you know about it? And I’m not a cultural conservative.
“It’s called the “Jim Crow LAWS” because this was government mandated discrimination.”
Right. There wasn’t ANY public discrimination against blacks in the South. It was all the government. Can you be any more disingenuous? The private discrimination was supported and defended by the government.
“A libertarian would understand that widespread, harmful racial discrimination is highly unlikely in a free market”
No libertarian is stupid enough to think that widespread, harmful discrimination is an aberration. Look at how blacks were treated, even after the Jim Crow laws disappeared. Look at how the Japanese were treated in the mid 20th century. Look at how gays were treated in the late 20th century. Look at the way trans people are attacked and discriminated against today.
Any reasonably intelligent person, libertarian or otherwise, would understand that aggressive (and harmful) discriminatory behavior is the norm, not the exception. After the nonstop examples of harmful discrimination deployed against disfavored groups throughout the entirety of recorded human history, claiming it would suddenly stop if there was a completely unregulated market is delusional.
“Theoretically they are, but the US government doesn’t actually treat them that way.”
That is not true. Here is a resource for you to help you understand this topic: https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/tribal-sovereignty-native-americans/
I’ll be quoting from it since they know more than I do.
“Furthermore, even if they were treated as sovereign nations, they would not have the right to many other benefits we currently bestow upon them.”
–> “The Constitution gives authority in Indian affairs to the federal government, not to the state governments,” according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. “Just as the United States deals with states as governments, it also deals with Indian tribes as governments …
“For example, the US would be perfectly within its right to outlaw dual citizenship for members of sovereign Indian tribes”
The Indian Citizenship Act (a law passed by Congress and signed by President Coolidge, reads: “all noncitizen Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States be, and they are hereby, declared to be citizens of the United States: Provided that the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property.”.
So no, the US would not be within its rights to eliminate US citizenship for Indians.
“since having ongoing allegiance to a racist, ethnocentric nation is arguably incompatible with US citizenship.”
How could you possibly believe such a weird thing? We have allegiances with many racist, ethnocentric nations. We always have.
“You’re not a libertarian, so what would you know about it?”
I’m more libertarian than the paleoconservatives here. I’m not insane or an idiot so I don’t believe that, if you don’t believe in pure libertarian principles taken to their most extreme extent, it means you aren’t a libertarian. Extremism is a very bad thing.
Do you actually believe the extremist things you say, or are you just being an illogical devil’s advocate?
There once was widespread racial discrimination by private actors, but this wasn't "Jim Crow". In the south from the 1890's to the 1950's, discrimination was required by law.
In the north, discrimination was not required by law, but it still existed in many places. E.g., the Detroit area became very segregated just as soon as more than a few blacks moved there - OTOH, many poor white southerners moved to Detroit at the same time, and many of them were intensely racist. Whites and blacks both came for jobs in the auto plants. As far as I can tell, the plant owners generally didn't discriminate, and neither did the UAW - but there was a lot of friction between whites and blacks, and it was safer for both to stick to their own neighborhoods. The police certainly did discriminate, in a policy that came from the bottom up rather than from the top down.
You are equivocating here, mixing up “harmful discrimination”, "discrimination" (in the sense of "distinction", "voluntary choice"), and “segregation”.
The fact that blacks, WASPs, Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, etc. don’t want to live together is “discrimination”, but it’s not harmful. To the contrary, it’s a choice. It’s, in fact, a choice that minorities insist on having. Libertarians welcome such choices.
"The fact that blacks, WASPs, Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, etc. don’t want to live together"
American are perfectly fine living with people who aren't like them. Self-segragation happens, but so do mixed-culture communities. The vast majority of people in America live, work, play, and voluntarily associate with those who aren't like them.
Discrimination in a person's heart is their business. Discrimination in the public square is inherently harmful because it is always disfavored minorities in a community that are denied equal access and protection.
That said, I have The Squirrel on mute, so I'm not sure how much insanity you were responding to.
"If a contract incorporates an unconstitutional statute by reference, are the terms of that statute enforceable as to the contracting parties?"
If the answer is yes, can I enter into a contract to buy a slave? I bet there is at least one law about slavery somewhere that got overlooked.
Your analogy fails.
Slavery is illegal. It is not illegal to sell a condo building.
Furthermore, in a libertarian society, slavery is permissible as long as entered into voluntarily.
No, slavery is always immoral and unenforceable.
Slavery means a slave has no say in how his life is run. It means that I can kidnap someone, tell the public he is my slave, and his protests to the contrary must be ignored because slaves have no voice?
You want a contract? I'll make one up. His protests that it is fraudulent are not allowed; he has no voice.
Slavery cannot square this circle without making slavery permanent and based on some natural feature, such as skin color. You can treat cows as slaves because they cannot be made to look like humans. You cannot treat humans as slaves based on skin color because interbreeding makes it useless.
Correct. And that is a state that you can choose to voluntarily enter, just like you can voluntarily commit suicide and like you can voluntarily commit a crime that sends you to prison for life.
You are historically illiterate. Almost all slavery throughout history has been independent of race or any other distinguishing features. In many societies, individuals could become slaves voluntarily, and slavery could be a temporary condition.
I notice you skipped my explanation of why slavery is immoral, that there is no way to distinguish slave from kidnap victim.
Try again, if you dare.
Yeah, that comment was so stupid that I didn’t even bother responding to it. But since you insist...
As I was saying:
Furthermore, in a libertarian society, slavery is permissible as long as entered into voluntarily.
A “kidnap victim” didn’t enter slavery voluntarily.
Furthermore, historically, slavery doesn’t mean that the slave has no rights at all; in addition, slavery entered into voluntarily in a libertarian society is governed by enforceable legal contracts.
How do you prove it was voluntary? What if the slave changes his mind and now claims to be a kidnap victim and that the slavery contract is a forgery?
Salves can't do that, they are slaves. That means kidnap victims can't deny they are slaves. If they could, then slaves could claim to be kidnap victims.
You cannot square that circle.
Same way we do this all the time in libertarian societies: through a written contract.
Then the legal system will deal with it, just like it deals with any other contract dispute.
In many slave societies, slaves could seek legal recourse, including many Southern states. In addition, government itself can intervene on behalf of slaves and ensure that every enslaved person is enslaved as a consequence of a valid contract.
Replace "entering slavery" with "suicide" and see how ridiculous your argument is: you are effectively saying that we shouldn't allow people to commit suicide because someone might murder them and claim that it was suicide.
Square the circle, please. At least try. Now all you're doing is pretending slaves aren't slaves, that they have rights.
One or the other, slave or free. Can't be both.
(1) If free men are wrongly held as slaves, then it is the rights of free men that are being violated, same as with any other kidnapping. So your objection is irrelevant.
(2) I’m sorry about your historical ignorance, but the term “slave” has a history of thousands of years and it is not "persons with no rights". As long as there have been laws, there have been laws governing what slave owners can and cannot do with slaves. That was true under US law.
The Bible is quite explicit about all of this:
In the Bible, slaves had certain rights and protections. In the Old Testament, several laws regulated slavery, as outlined in Exodus 21. These laws provided slaves with rights such as the right to keep a wife (verse 3), the right not to be sold to foreigners (verse 8), the right to be adopted into a family by marriage (verse 9), and the right to food and clothing (verse 10). Hebrew slaves could voluntarily enter servitude for six years due to poverty, and there were conditions under which they might elect to become a bond-slave for life (Exodus 21:1-11). Slaves were to be treated fairly, receive their just wages, not work during the Sabbath, and not be treated harshly or severely harmed (Exodus 20:10, Job 31:13-15, Deuteronomy 24:14-15, Leviticus 22:11, Malachi 3:5, Leviticus 19:20-22, Exodus 21:20-21, 26-32). Kidnapping of a Hebrew into slavery was punishable by death (Deuteronomy 24:7, Nehemiah 5:1-8).
Slave or free. Ask slaves in the antebellum South how well they could contest their slavery. Ask free northern blacks how well that defense worked against slave catchers.
Slave or free, one or the other.
In fact, hundreds of slaves in the antebellum South obtained their freedom via lawsuits.
But slavery in the antebellum South is atypical anyway; obviously, voluntary slavery in a libertarian society would function more along the lines of biblical slavery.
"voluntary slavery in a libertarian society"
Liberty is one of the inalienable rights in America. Philosophically, it is a natural right, which is likewise inalienable.
Finally, I have never seen any libertarian take free association so far as to claim that slavery is allowable under a libertarian system, voluntary or otherwise. It is the sort of extreme purist argument that is ridiculous on its face.
Liberty is “inalienable” in the sense that the state cannot take it away from you without cause. Your liberty can be taken away for cause, and you can give it away freely even in the US, for example when you join the military.
Well, we can’t expect someone who isn’t a libertarian to be familiar with the works of Nozick and Hoppe, among many others.
The justification for “voluntary slavery” isn’t free association, it is property rights to your own body and your labor. Just like you have a right to commit suicide or commit to a six months stint on an oil platform, you have a right to transfer 100% of your labor and give up your freedom of movement under contractual arrangements, similar to slavery described in the Bible.
Robert Nozick is an advocate of the most extreme version of the Night Watchman state. Nozick’s contention of the possibility of non-coercive slave contracts was criticized by libertarian “fringe players” like Murray Rothbard. One of them is a well-known libertarian, the other argues for oxymoronic things like non-coercive slavery.
Hoppe is a right-wing anarchist. He’s what happens when libertarian purity is taken to its most extreme point. Unsurprisingly, he is an advocate of an extreme version of anarcho-capitalism. He is also a rather virulent racist who is literally anti-democratic and believes that democrats and homosexuals should be purged from society. I know more about him because of the issues of academic freedom that he faced (maybe at UCLA?) about 15 years ago. As loathsome as he is I found myself siding with him at the time because academic freedom is that important to me. His is basically the “Illinois Nazis” case of academic freedom.
It’s not that I’m not familiar with them, it’s that I find that level of extremism to be self-eliminating. Those who advocate for the purest form of any political movement aren’t really part of those movements, they are a caricature of them.
So yes. If, like most pedantic extremists, you insist that hyperbolic words have to be taken literally, I will restate my point by changing “any libertarian” to “any reasonable libertarian”.
Obviously you believe that fringe concepts in a movement should be given equal stature and consideration to core beliefs. That concepts within a movement all the same weight, significance, and support within the movement. That extremists and purists (and their ideas) have just as much credibility and weight as core philosophies.
They don’t.
"Furthermore, in a libertarian society, slavery is permissible as long as entered into voluntarily."
Cannibalism too, perhaps?
So, does one have the “personal freedom” to contractually allow oneself to be killed and eaten? This has been legally established ass VORBOTEN now, in Germany, at least.
See http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/04/germany.lukeharding ... Names were Meiwes and Brandes... Legal consent was all drawn up. "Victim of cannibal agreed to be eaten"... That eats me up pretty badly!
But you know those Germans! They have a bad history of sometimes strangely restricting your personal freedoms!
In a libertarian society? Certainly. You own your body.
See, as usual, you are siding with the fascist (German) viewpoint.
Sorry that makes no sense, I may be dead drunk, but it still makes no sense. Please clarify, there may be something worth considering,but I sure don't see it at the moment
Some of the first slave owners here, were black. In Africa it was common to take slaves from other tribes. Then there's the Barbary coast pirates who enslaved hundreds of thousands of Europeans, especially women.
Don't forget indenturism that took place in the colonies, most were Irish.
Fuck off you dishonest cunt. In one post you claim the forced sale is fine because "private parties" are involved in enforcing the unconstitutional law then the next you're arguing against that premise because it makes you look evil.
Nobody is "enforcing a law"; people are insisting that the parties to a private contract live up to their private contractual terms.
You must have misunderstood something. Nowhere did I "argue against that premise".
I couldn't care less whether a nincompoop like you considers me "evil".
Apparently you do care about that nincompoop's opinion, since you quoted it and responded to it.
No, I care about correcting the nincompoop's erroneous statements, just like I care about correcting the erroneous statements of ignoramuses like you.
What either of you think of me is irrelevant to me.
All this discussion is forgetting or overlooking the right of private action, which some day, some where, a “private party” is going to exercise against the individual (private party or state actor) trying to phook him.
In perhaps a less inflammatory vein, I would encourage readers to review the Supreme Court's decision when, as part of the Roosevelt Gold Theft Scheme of 1933, the Court ruled that "gold clauses" requiring repayment of debt in gold or the full equivalent thereof was "against public policy, and therefore null and void". Sorta like the common law rule that one cannot enforce a contract for murder, even if one has already made payment for it.
The moral of the story is - never ever buy a condo or townhome where the lot or land underneath is owned by a private party or government. The condo association should own the lot. There’s a reason leftists want to abolish single family homes.
Leftists want to abolish single family homes? What are you talking about?
Yes, progressives and leftists want to create "15 minutes cities" and "high density housing".
Of course, they don't want to completely abolish single family homes: wealthy and powerful members of the intelligentsia can continue to live in such homes.
"Yes, progressives and leftists want to create “15 minutes cities” and “high density housing”."
I have no idea what "15 minute cities" are, but support for high density housing isn't even close to wanting to abolish single family homes.
When you take one thing and pretend it means something completely different in order to make your opponents seem unreasonable, that's called "building a strawman".
15 minute cities have been floating around for a year now. In the U.K. there are already a couple in effect.
A 15 minute city means that everything you could possibly need, which isn't much, will be within 15 minute walk, that is if you survive it.
You don't need no steenking car. You ain't going anywhere anyway.
Interesting concept. It seems like it would be a nice place to live, but has anyone ever actually passed laws that mandate them?
Well, then I suggest you find out. Once you do, and once you understand the background, then we can have a rational discussion about this.
I didn't do that. In fact, I pointed out that progressives do not actually want to abolish single family homes; they want to keep it for members of the intelligentsia and party loyalists as rewards. This isn't rocket science, it's how every socialist society on the planet has worked.
"Well, then I suggest you find out."
OK, I understand the concept now. But I don't think anyone has ever legislated them. Do you have any examples of legislation requiring 15 minute cities?
"I didn’t do that."
You really did. When you say "they want to keep it for members of the intelligentsia and party loyalists as rewards", you are building a strawman. I have never seen any reasonable person seriously suggest outlawing single family homes, and neither have you, let alone suggesting that they be reserved for rewards for favored people.
"it’s how every socialist society on the planet has worked"
We don't live in a socialist society. We can't even see the exurbs of Socialism City from America. We aren't even in the same time zone.
"15 minute cities" means that everything you need is within a 15 minute walk - that's 3/4 mile for a fit young person, but for my wife it would only be about a block.
A 15 minute city has to be very high density to fit everything in, and you cannot do that with single-family homes. It doesn't abolish single-family homes for everyone, but it certainly does for those in the 15 minute cities - and this is what the elite wants for us but not for them.
Has anyone ever introduced legislation mandating a 15 minute city?
Any large city is sufficiently dense to make single family homes infeasible. It isn't a conspiracy, it's economics. The land it too valuable to only build a detached two- or three-story home on it since with the same footprint you can build a highrise and increase tha value of the land. That isn't "abolishing" anything.
If you want to live in a single family home, you obviously don't want to live in a city.
"and this is what the elite wants for us but not for them."
I thought "the elites" lived in big cities. So they actually do want it for themselves, and they aren't trying to stop anyone else from living in single family homes. So I'm at a loss to understand this narrative.
They agreed to the terms willingly, they need to abide by it.
It's unconstitutional if the state overrides contractual provisions. It's not unconstitutional when private parties agree to it voluntarily.
Never heard of unconscionable contract clauses?
There is nothing "unconscionable" about these clauses: they are still permissible.
Let's be clear here: what was unconstitutional about the Arizona law was that the state mandated certain termination clauses. Declaring that law unconstitutional doesn't mean that now unanimity is mandated, it means that the termination conditions are purely determined by the parties to the contract. Since the contract is somewhat unclear, it is reasonable to assume that the parties intended to agree to the conditions that were actually in effect at the time the contract was signed.
That a court has arrogated the stance of striking down a Christian Higher Law instituted for the Greater Good, is no more than another error. The Supreme Court's crime against the Comstock laws after the Libertarian electoral vote was counted in 1973 amounted to an illegal abortion, now happily rectified by Donald Trump's appointment of Christian National Socialist judges. The so-called repeal of the 18th Amendment was another such immoral tragedy which the restoration of the Orange Reich will soon reverse. We are inexorably building a new race.
Ah, TDS. This explains your other comment.
Actually, in this case it's just Hank being Hank. I've never been able to follow his "logic". I'm not sure what that says about me.
Murder, theft, and other crimes are crimes from the moment they are committed, not from the moment they are detected, nor from the moment someone is convicted.
A defective law is similarly defective from the moment it is enacted, not from the moment someone challenges it, nor from the moment it is ruled defective.
If someone wants to agree to abide by a defective law, let them copy that law's text into their contract. But they cannot agree to a law which has been declared defective, because it is no longer a law.
At least, that's what ought to be. American jurisprudence does not throw out defective laws, it merely enjoins anyone from enforcing them. That ought to imply that references to them cannot be enforced, but lawyers haven't finished quibbling over the matter, so no one knows what the legal system will say.
"If someone wants to agree to abide by a defective law, let them copy that law’s text into their contract."
Which is the case here, although it was included by reference, rather than as copypasta.
It's a bizarre article. If you agree to condominium terms such as these, that a general law exists (or does not) which achieves the same effect where people _have not_ agreed to such terms is entirely irrelevant.
The reality is that the chancers here bought a property that was cheap because it had significant downsides, and are now trying to litigate away the downsides so they can make a substantial profit. Can't blame them for trying it on, but it's utterly mad to suggest they should win.
No, you cannot twist my words like that. I explicitly wrote "copy" and you try to pretend that a reference is the same.
Write your own damned comment with your own words. Don't pretend I wrote something I explicitly did not.
"although it was included by reference, rather than as copypasta."
This isn't the same at all. Copypasta would put the clause in the contract that the buyer could read before buying. "Included by reference" puts the clause somewhere else, that non-lawyers will find difficult to look up and impossible to understand without hiring a lawyer and paying him for hours or even days of research on how court precedents may have changed the way the law is interpreted.
What matters is the precise language of the contract and the intent and understanding of the parties entering into the contract, nothing more.
What you are trying to do, derive some general principle from this, is bullshit.
IANAL, obviously, but perhaps I'm making this too simple...
The contract references a statute, but the statute no longer exists. Therefore, the contract references nothing.
I find for the plantiff.
What matters is the intent and understanding of the parties to the contract.
And the statute most certainly does still exist: http://www.azleg.gov/ars/33/01228.htm
I think the weakness in your argument is that you would have to prove that the signers knew the exact text of every single law that they were agreeing to abide by to prove "intent and understanding".
If this is a general contract clause that basically means "we agree that all the laws have to be followed" without any specific acknowledgement of each law on the books, it is unreasonable to assume that they specifically agreed to being forced to sell their home if 80% of their fellow condo-owners said they had to.
Additionally, I believe the Arizona Constitution would override any unconstitutional clause in a contract. But IANAL, so I don't know that for sure.
RTFA. The court found it to be unconstitutional for such clauses to apply to contracts if they weren't explicitly mentioned in the contract. But this contract does explicitly mention the specific clause, and therefore, these owners cannot get out of it.
"But this contract does explicitly mention the specific clause, and therefore, these owners cannot get out of it."
I believe you are mistaken. Once a law is found to be unconstitutional it never existed, in a legal sense. As I understand it, that is how unconstitutional laws are treated.
Perhaps you can point me to a case or rulong that contradicts that premise? Since it is a case about the state Constitution, there may be a different precedent in Arizona.
Well, the court obviously disagrees with you. RTFA
Also, what does the Right To Farm Act have to do with Arizona Constitutional protections?
RTFA = read the effing article
I did. That's the crux of the article, that the property rights enshrined in the Arizona Constitution caused the Act to be declared unconstitutional. Not only that, the clause in the Arizona Constitution may make the actions of the company illegal, which is what the case is about.
What I was saying is separate from, and outside of, the arguments discussed in the article. I was asking for a lawyer's take on the meaning of something being declared unconstitutional.
Specifically, how is a law that has been declared unconstitutional treated in the law? I thought I read something in an article here that said it is treated as if it never existed. If so, how does that impact a contract based on a law that, legally, doesn't exist.
Two people of the same sex, height and weight, intelligence, and physical condition decide to get into a fight not knowing that fighting is illegal. No brainer for a libertarian - you leave 'em as you found them.
Condos and gated communities with home owners associations ....such lovely places. Nothing like a perpetually angry karen who walks through the community making notes of every little violation. As for condos.....I know what the attraction is but.......no thank you.
In fact I'd rather live out in the boondocks, off grid and away from the soon to collapse societies ie: cities and communities.
It appears that more and more people have decided to go off grid and away from the looming collapse.