Russia Looks Increasingly Medieval After the Coup That Wasn't
Feudal-style squabbling with the control of nuclear weapons at stake.

If you're trying to make sense of events in Russia, it might be best to frame it in medieval terms. Think of the mutiny by Prigozhin and the Wagner Group less as an attempted coup by mercenaries and more as a violent effort to extract a better deal by a warlord who was betrayed by his liege. That the feudal squabbling takes place not amidst a Game of Thrones setting of horses and swords, but with the control of nuclear weapons at stake, means that the resulting destabilization could have global repercussions.
The revolt was certainly a shock to Russian authorities, with convict-turned-caterer-turned-warlord Yevgeny Prigozhin's Wagner Group troops reportedly making it to within 200 kilometers of Moscow before halting. They shot down aircraft from the armed forces on the way and seem to have picked up a few defecting military units. The precipitating factor was that, after months of feuding between Prigozhin and the Defense Ministry, Russia's President Vladimir Putin decided to end Wagner's independence.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
A Betrayal with Big Repercussions
"A key trigger for Prigozhin, officials said, was a June 10 Russian Defense Ministry order that all volunteer detachments would have to sign contracts with the government," The Washington Post reported. "Though the order did not mention Wagner Group by name, the implication was clear: a takeover of Prigozhin's mercenary troops, who have proved essential to Russia's military campaign in Ukraine and have helped secure some of its most notable tactical victories."
Prigozhin more or less confirmed this take in a statement after Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko negotiated an end to the march on Moscow.
"The aim of the march was to avoid the destruction of Wagner," Prigozhin claimed on Telegram after accusing regular military units of opening fire on Wagner formations in the days before the revolt.
But aside from leading mutineers shockingly close to the Russian capital, what was Prigozhin doing? Wagner was obviously up to the job of punching through defenses and threatening the seat of government. But taking and holding the entire country seemed desperate and unlikely. But that's not necessarily what he intended.
Severance-Package Negotiations Through Mutiny
"The coup, if it wasn't going to be serious, which turns out it wasn't, was always about Prigozhin honestly just getting the best retirement package that he could," suggests geopolitical analyst Peter Zeihan. That is, if the warlord was going to be kicked to the curb by Putin, he'd march his elite troops on Moscow and demand to be paid off before going away. Zeihan has doubts that Prigozhin will enjoy a long and peaceful retirement, but he expects that Putin and company have plenty of worries of their own.
"We now have the bulk of Wagner who have joined Prigozhin on an attempted coup. Even if Prigozhin never expected it to succeed, the soldiers followed him, and at least one unit of the air defense system within the Russian military joined him," adds Zeihan. "That means if you are Putin, not only is the most effective fighting force you have of questionable loyalty, there's a lot of folks in the rank and file that you don't know if you can trust anymore."
Russia's reliance on Wagner is clear from Putin's offer to the mutineers "to continue your service to Russia by signing a contract with the Defence Ministry or other law enforcement or security agency or return home. Those who want to are free to go to Belarus" with Prigozhin. That's not a generous offer from a victor, but a desperate one from a man with a shaky grip on the throne.
A Weakened Grip on the Throne
"Strong leaders are not usually the targets of coup attempts," notes Edward Lucas, writing for the Center for European Policy Analysis. "It was also telling that so few heavyweights rallied to Putin's side. Many regime insiders and other bigwigs seem to have thought that the coup had a chance of succeeding, and waited to see what would happen…. The outlook for Russia is now grim. Prigozhin's march on Moscow may have failed, but the conditions that fostered it remain. Others will be mulling their chances."
"Things remain together, just, but only so long as everyone fears Putin most," agrees Francisco Toro, at Persuasion. "And that's why last weekend's bizarre mini-crisis in Russia has destabilized the Putin system as consequentially as it has. For one fleeting moment, just one mad-cap afternoon, Vladimir Putin was not the man Russians feared most."
The result is that Yevgeny Prigozhin has an uncertain refuge in Belarus under the "protection," such as it is, of Lukashenko. Putin has an equally uncertain grip on power in Moscow. The result is almost certain to be instability in Russia as the previously unchallengeable ruler looks unexpectedly vulnerable a year and a half after setting out to expand his empire with the invasion of Ukraine.
"Russia's next civil war has already started," claims Lucas. "As it deepens, Russia's civil war is unlikely to be a territorial conflict, as in the fighting that followed the Bolshevik revolution…. This one is between gangsters: feuding clans eager to hold on to their own wealth and perhaps gain assets from their rivals."
"For Vladimir Putin to survive in power he will need to patch up the holes in his now badly tattered aura of menace," writes Toro. "I can't tell you exactly how he'll do that. But I can tell you this: it's going to be ugly."
Big Stakes for the World
This increased uncertainty has enormous implications beyond Russia, given that the country has the world's largest nuclear forces and a diminished, but still substantial, international presence. The country is the world's largest exporter of wheat and a major source of petroleum and other resources. That means chaos in Russia is likely to contribute even more pain to a world already disrupted by the invasion of Ukraine and the economic sanctions imposed by the West in response. Worse than a medieval power struggle in the age of swords and castles, a similar conflict now implicates control over vast wealth and destructive power.
There is one party that likely finds comfort in Prigozhin's power play and the resulting turmoil: Ukrainians. While Ukraine has punched above its weight in resisting invasion, the country suffers terribly from the war. The withdrawal of Wagner troops from the fighting and the mutineers' seizure of the Russian military headquarters in Rostov-on-Don have boosted Ukraine's military operations.
"Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations and advanced on at least two sectors of the front as of June 26," according to the Institute for the Study of War. "The UK [Ministry of Defense] indicated on June 26 that Russian forces likely lack operational-level reserves that could reinforce against simultaneous Ukrainian threats on multiple areas of the front hundreds of kilometers from each other, chiefly Bakhmut and southern Ukraine."
In chaos there is opportunity. That opportunity is clear for besieged defenders in Ukraine. But it's also an opportunity for the return of a more uncertain and overtly brutal world in which old-style warlords gamble with very high stakes.
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I heard Russia is so powerful, so scary, that if Putin succeeds in Ukraine he'll immediately take over all of Europe. Then the entire planet.
#LibertariansForProxyWars
We must continue to send money to Ukraine until the treasury is empty.
The treasury is empty. We are sending bad checks and paying the extra fees at the bank on their behalf.
Checks? Hell, I thought we were sending them money.
Or at least until the CIA can extract and destroy the proof of Xiden's bribery crimes that Zelensky is holding.
Pretty solid snark
I haven't read it, but I think ol' berlatsky has a review of the new indiana jones flick that would put the reasonmag staffers & the shill/trolls to shame...
Wasn't that Richard Nixon's Dominoes Vobiscum speech? So "we" sent Christian hero Lt. Calley to save the peeps from Brejnev and Mao and earn their eternal respect and gratitude and bombed Laos and Cambodia to get the same from them. THAT went well...
Damn, that was clever. Got any more? I’m writing this stuff down.
We're doomed ! Ukraine may win the meme war, but Putin has all the good icons and the Metropolitan of Moscow has blessed his troops.
Good news is he's losing in Iraq, at least according to Brandon.
I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to explain why we should assume that Russia's nuclear arsenal is in good working order, or is even at all functional. Those things don't just stay ready-to-go without a lot of expensive maintenance. Even more than the kind of maintenance which we have clearly seen has NOT been done for the rest of their military equipment.
Sure, having fissile material fall into the hands of rogue actors is absolutely a problem, but I seriously wonder what the actual current capability of their nukes really is.
A crackhead pulls a gun on you.
You: “I bet his ammo is bad, I’ll disarm him!”
Truly a brilliant plan.
You beat me to it. Russia had 6k nukes twenty years ago. If even five percent of those are serviceable they have the capacity to change life on earth as we know it in a ver bad way.
Correct. The one thing totalitarians NEVER let slide into disrepair are their most important weapons.
I still think these are ridiculous lengths for Disney to promote their newest Marvel series, Secret Invasion.
Are we still in Phase 1 of the Ukraine war? Or has Kevin Feige brought us into Phase 2 yet? And how many of the Infinity Gems does Putin have so far?
It was a ruse.
Maybe Prigozhin and his refugee Wagner fighters will simply retire in the peaceful backwater of Belarus and never be heard from again?
Or maybe Prigozhin isn't really the one who needs "protection" in Belarus...
I give up. Who is really the one who needs the-quoted-word-protection in belarus?
Even if prigozhin don't need no protection (either the regular kind or the in-quotes kind), he has been a warlord that's actively out in the field for a while now. He is 62 and not super fit. I'd imagine that this sort of warlord work is at least a little tiring for him, so retiring might not be a bad idea. I'm half his age, but I don't have the energy to be a warlord for months on end.
He could supplement his retirement by offering his Warlord Diet and Exercise Plan.
A ruse to what end and to whose benefit?
Where do you guys get this stuff? Are you relying on the New York Times to tell you about the Russian political situation? Or do you have boots on the ground in Moscow? Or are we getting updates from the CIA via Cato?
One thing that has been consistently clear about this Russia/Ukraine situation is that nobody seems to have the slightest clue what they are talking about.
Whether it is casualties, troop movements. Intentions, breaking points, next outcomes... The only thing everyone seems to share is that they are all wrong.
It seems as if we(the rest of the world) have two sources.. maybe three.. Russian Propaganda, Ukrainian propaganda, and US propaganda. The latter two may be the same.
Nobody is doing independent reporting. Nobody seems to have an actual expert analysis of their own based on decent information.
So where is Reason getting the deep insight into Russian politics to tell us that Putin is weakened and lacks support? Is it the same source that said he was going to collapse 6 months ago?
Based on a history of reported assassinations, my inexpert hot take would be that Putin convinced this guy to take some cash and step off the stage, and when the time is right he will die mysteriously of an illness that looks very much like he was poisoned. But I base that only on the fate of past Putin opponents in countries outside Russia.
Peter Zeihan and Edward Lucas were the two main sources for article. Don't know about Lucas, but Zeihan has to my knowledge never thought Russia would collapse in 6 months; he's more surprised that Russia didn't take over Ukraine quickly. He's overall take is Russia will collapse in the coming decades due to their demographics. Zeihan has also stated which, JD should have quoted, basically your argument that everything coming out now on the internal Russian struggle is most likely wrong.
Overall I find the best source of info are battlefield maps to determine how things are progressing.
Zeihan has been hilariously wrong about everything
The guy is literally a joke
Thanks for the info. WI was not particularly familiar with Zeihan, so I googled him. He has a newsletter. You can sign up on his website.
Wikipedia says he went to Stratfor after being frustrate elsewhere. He eventually became a VP there.
Don't I know something bad about Stratfor? It is rattling around in the back of my brain, but I can't place it.
Isn't Stratfor one of the CIA fronts for planting disinformation?
Looking...
Yeah, that was it. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/stratfor-robert-kaplan/
Only an idiot would cite a Stratfor guy as a primary source without going to some lengths to verify.
As I suggested... The only sources we seem to have are US propaganda and Russian Propaganda.
Surely there are people who are not on the payroll who knows something about Russian politics or Ukraine or are in the country doing reporting.
Someone posted a tweet from a Belgian journalist below. With video showing what appear to be US soldiers treating wounded at a hotel in Ukraine.
Why don't we ask *that guy*. At least he has some chance of knowing something that didn't come from the CIA or the FSB.
I’ve been saying that since this shit started. Everyone is lying. Putin, Zelensky, and especially Biden. I don’t trust any of them.
Lucas seems to be a leftist journalist turned politician specializing in espionage coverage, including a book on Snowden.
He's got a youtube channel too. Interesting guy, definitely gives off some CIA vibes - I pretty sure he worked for the state dept as well as Statfor (which could be his cover).
Zeihan is a bit of a clickbaiter (everything will collapse in weeks) but he brings in some good background info sometimes. Just in the last couple years he's identified two bits - Chinese population lies and Chinese financial debt and real estate dependence - that are useful little tidbits.
Lucas is a Brit who knows the subject matter. But he's also close to the spook community so you gotta treat it with skepticism.
I'll be more crass than the rest of you, the sources are typical for what you'd expect a beltway 'journalist' to view as authoritative, almost always lacking in real-world experience, and rarely offer any insight except into what the reasonmag staffer wants to believe. These two are no different -self-determined experts on the area. Between enb's risible 'the whole world was watching' horseshit line, and this stinking mess, it comes off like a soft-serve circlejerk. Why is it so difficult for some types of people to admit they don't have a clue what is happening, or what will happen? This piece goes in the opposite fucking direction, stating opinion as fact and making wild jumps based on tuccille's ignorant opinions.
Nobody is doing independent reporting.
Exactly what ‘independent reporting’ would you expect in either a war zone or in a country that has killed/exiled all independent journalists? There is plenty of reporting that tries to find out what is really going on, that doesn’t just fall into rumor mongering, that vets sources, etc. If you can’t find it (which you can’t because you are using the word nobody), then maybe you should step out of your little comfort bubble – and find different sources which are all over the fucking place. The Internet is not some hidden sshh-zone where nothing is ever said outside Twitter.
Nobody seems to have an actual expert analysis of their own based on decent information.
Again with this woe is me!! nobody shit. Get out of your bubble. You’ve implicitly complained about it twice in two sentences. Obviously all analysts have their own biases and blind spots (and sometimes agendas) - which is why you need to read widely and take them all with a bit of skepticism and try to distinguish between what is real info and what is opinion and what is bullshit that they are making up. There’s plenty of 'expert analysis' – here’s an aggregator site Real Clear World that also has subsections focused on defense, investigative reporting, policy (or how the US might respond), energy, markets, etc. Each with a dozen or more articles every day from different sources. Some of which are predictable, some of which aren’t but most of which are reasonably sourced and provide a different perspective. And this ain’t even a top-ten aggregator of other sources.
I am really surprised by how many people respond to the explosion of information on the Internet by crawling under the covers to their safe space where they can confirm their biases. Not everything is a conspiracy to keep you in the dark.
I think you forgot the mic drop at the end... it's good to remind people to do a bit of digging.
Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/deadly-russian-missile-strike-on-busy-pizza-restaurant-in-kramatorsk
Russia targets a pizza place, killing civilians.
From Twitter, I see actual video of the immediate aftermath. Definitely there are military wounded. Definitely what appear to be US soldiers present acting as medics.
Yet this article from the UK press says that it proves Russia is targeting civilians.
The Twitter thread linked belowmakes a pretty good case that it was the hotel that was targeted and that it was a military barracks. The Guardian quotes Ukraine and US officials as authoritative. They have quotes from a cook at the restaurant who says there were many people hurt. And a pretty picture of two young blond girls who were killed.
But no pictures of the military folks that were in the videos on Twitter. No interviews with the mercenaries pictured.
So... What "extensive digging" would you do as a reader of "the guardian"?
Is it propaganda? Or is it fact?
What of the videos and pictures on Twitter? Russian disinformation?
Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
You link to the Guardian article which describes the attack. Then you talk entirely about Twitter. Somewhere unknown on Twitter (you don’t link to that) – where there CANNOT be any actual story there because of the posting limits. But apparently on Twitter-place-unknown, there is a photograph (also unknown location and unknown image with no link either) and you somehow think that is worth responding to?
You are profoundly dishonest aren’t you. Wallowing in invisible conspiracies. From Twitter of all places. I thought this was a serious comment but its not is it.
No wonder you fall for state propaganda so easily.
Nobody is this stupid.
Nobody could possibly read that guardian article with a skeptical eye and fail to see hand of government propaganda. The only actual source is a quote from a worker who says lots of people were hurt.
All of the other information comes from government sources. Ask yoirself... where did the reporter get the photo of the girls? He didn't speak to the family. There are no quotes from relatives. Yet they have a photo.
Meanwhile, in a discussion about judging sources, you discount posts on Twitter because you don't knwonwho the guy is.
This is absolutely the opposite of judging the credibility of sources. There are actual videos and photos from the scene. There are witness statements from people who were there. There are diagrams of the layout of the building. There is analysis of the type of damage at multiple locations and explanations of why specific weapons systems are consistent with the damage.
The guardian has nothing at all about this. They just quote three governments who were not there and who claim they had no representatives present (photos be damned), and the two combatant governments... one uncritically and one dismissively.
I don't think you could design a more transparent propaganda piece.
Twitter guy? Is he a Russian national? A Russian asset? Maybe. Some of the photos or audio could be fake or out of context. The original sources are listed ... one is a Belgian journalist. Seems legit enough.
Is it enough to say the hotel was a barracks? I dunno.
Was it enough to prove that the Guardian is parroting a lie when they say no nato forces were present? Pretty damned close. I mean, you would have to posit that Ukraine forces had people dressed up as US troops... that would be weird. But that video is clearly the same location, same incident, and has American military. Very doubtful that this is fake.
Which all goes to show how we can spot the paid shills and disinformation experts in the comments. Nobody could honestly believe that nonsense.
Note to foreign readers: Real Clear World, Like Landover Baptist Church and Al Jazeera, is another jumble of muddle-headed, monofilament-minded LeftAndRight monologists dedicated to keeping rights undefinable, hence indefensible-except as enumerated by Allah and Saddleback Jesus-channelers. Its motto is "Clear as Mud."
Is it possible you missed this part? "Each with a dozen or more articles every day from different sources. Some of which are predictable, some of which aren’t but most of which are reasonably sourced and provide a different perspective. And this ain’t even a top-ten aggregator of other sources." I mean, he didn't say it was an oracle of truth, did he??
I thought Clear as Mud was your posting style
That comment was completely incomprehensible so I ran it through my handy Bengali - Serbian - Azerbaijani - Swahili - Icelandic - Pashto - Telugu translator. My Telugu is a bit rusty (and not compatible with the posting requirements here) but it looks like you wrote:
Note to foreign readers: Puritan worlds like the Lander Baptist Church and Al Jazeera are dedicated to defending the rights of others whose vague, left-wing and right-wing mindsets are vague, not to mention sane, except for God and Saddleback.
Jesus counted the channels. . . . His motto is 'pure as mud'.
Is that what you wrote? It is at least comprehensible now though it remains entirely nonsensical.
Thanks for the reference,I shall give them a try..
But I am talking about "the western press" writ large. I read from a ton of sources, left and right. And my assessment of the reporting on Ukraine to date is "they are all full of shit".
Not "I disagree with this guy"", or his opinion. Not "that guy is a Russian stooge". No, I mean they absolutely do not know what they are talking about with any authority because the information they are using is state propaganda.
Casualty counts vary by at least a factor of 2, and sometimes an order of magnitude. That should be something the New York Times or the BBC can get pretty close to right.
OurReason writer quotes "geopolitical analyst" Peter Zeihan as an authoritative source. Turns out, he spend over a decade as a VP at Stratfor. Stratfor is famous as the private wing of the CIA, proving my point about propaganda being the main source of information about this war.
There was a time that we could at least pretend we had a professional press corps who would do the legwork to get accurate information and suss out the lies being told by those in power.
$100 plus billion into an undeclared but unanimously supported war in Ukraine,we still don't have a skeptical press checking things out. We have US/European propaganda and Russian Propaganda, and little else.
I see videos posted by people in Ukraine .. sometimes they are deemed hoaxes. Sometimes they are ignored. It would be great if there was a trustworthy news source or two that I could trust to vet such stuff.
If you read from 2 dozen sources, but they are all "reasonably sourced" from CIA or FSB information, did you really learn anything more than you would have if they each just did a press conference? I would say you actually learned less, because you think you are getting diverse voices when you actually are listening to 2 propaganda machines with wide networks.
I am really surprised by how many people respond to the explosion of information on the Internet by crawling under the covers to their safe space where they can confirm their biases.
Oh the masked and vaccinated irony.
Nobody is doing independent reporting. Nobody seems to have an actual expert analysis of their own based on decent information.
That’s not true. On The Today Show, I saw an NBC reporter “on the ground” with Ukrainian troops.
She even had a flak vest on!
I’m still thinking “head-fake to reposition closer to Kyiv”.
I suppose we’ll see on the upcoming season of Slava Ukraini.
Well said.
Let's see who parrots Carlson's latest rant.
Poor sarc.
lol
sarcasmic 53 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Let’s see who parrots Carlson’s latest rant.
Cyto 53 mins ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
Tucker had a pretty vicious screed about this situation…
In depth analysis of his position.
Parroting means repeating as if it were your own opinion.
Pointing out why someone else's take is interesting and comparing it to a much more tenuous analysis is not parroting. Kinda the opposite, actually.
A reminder that you’re dealing with someone that doesn’t think lewd sexual contact with a child is assault:
https://reason.com/2023/06/26/federal-judge-blocks-floridas-anti-drag-law/?comments=true#comment-10127667
Well he also believes illegal aliens that sexually assault children have a right to be free in the US even if they are currently in detention.
Apparently that is the hill reason libertarians want to die on.
You wouldn't know the difference between parroting and commenting if it bit you in the ass, Inceljeffy.
How does that relate to your unwavering support of child sexual abuse and mutilation of children?
Pucker? Pucker Tarleyton? Saaaay... here's an idea: put Pucker Tarleyton's face on cans of Thuds Blight! What could go wrong?
Tucker had a pretty vicious screed about this situation… He played a nice sample of US politicians explaining that we must defend Ukraine to defend Democracy (both in Ukraine, and somewhat surprisingly, here in the US). This is juxtaposed with Zelenskyy suspending elections.
I get that there is more to it than that, but it is pretty odd to claim that “global democracy is at stake” in what is a territorial dispute over a chunk of Ukraine that includes a bunch of ethnic Russians and has been disputed since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. And there surely is a bunch of irony in claiming you are defending democracy in a country that suspended democracy.
And there is a lot more evidence behind this barb than there is behind “Russia is feudalism”.
I read the transcript of that, and want to listen to it later. I've also been following Glenn Greenwald on this a bit as he's outside the US (Brazil) and is taking note of how the US media is circling the wagons over any dissent on Ukraine.
Democracy means we must preserve the borders of Ukraine, no matter what the people who live there might actually vote for given the opportunity.
And the second coming of Trotsky (Zelinsky) just cancelled elections..Slava Ukraine...glory to the dictatorship of democracy..Zelinsky and Nuland..
"It was also telling that so few heavyweights rallied to Putin's side."
I have no idea how an analyst would come to this conclusion. By mid-morning every Russian military officer and politician of weight was on state TV condemning Wagner.
It's also quite a leap to suggest that Putin's grip on power has been shaken. He put down the rebellion without using force, avoiding needless bloodshed without conceding to Prigozhin's main demands, which included replacing key people in the military hierarchy, beginning with Defense Minister Shoigu. The army and security forces remained 100 percent behind him. The Russian people backed Putin and were mostly angry at the traffic delays that the whole thing caused. Hell, most people didn't even know who Prigozhin was until a few days ago. A few thought he was TV producer and wondered where he got the tanks.
Military historians are aware that a rogue or, at least, ungovernable general shows up in most conflicts. General MacArthur in the pacific campaign and Patton in Europe are cases in point.
"most people didn’t even know who Prigozhin was until a few days ago."
Sort of like "what is Aleppo?"
That gotcha stuff is so weak.
They came after the Miami politician who thinks he is running for president on the same grounds. He didn't know what a Uyghur is.
Now, surface level snark kinda requires pointing out that even the activist politicos who have made much of this issue probably have no idea what a Uyghur is beyond "oppressed china minority" and maybe the word "camps".
But why would we expect a Miami city politician to be up on every passing issue of the day around the world.
Do you think Gavin Newsome would be able to speak on the topic of the Lhubirira massacre? Do you think Kamala Harris actually knows what the ADF (Allied Democratic Forces) is?
Yet this is probably a bigger deal geopolitically than the Uyghur issue (since you ain't doing Jack squat about that one.. even LeBron James is afraid to say anything at all).
Hell, the first time I heard it pronounced I had no idea who the fuck they were talking about either. It's not like "Uyghur" looks like it's pronounced "Weeger" in English.
Why the hell is it spelled in such an unintuitive manner?
"the country is the world's largest exporter of wheat'
Remember last year when experts from all over the place were predicting global famine and food shortages even in the US?
Whatever happened to that? It got a ton of players here in the US at all levels... And nothing actually happened. Why not? Were those experts cranks? Did something else happen to change the outcome? It sure seems like all of the things they were saying would cause a famine actually happened.... Without the resulting famine.
Remember last year when experts...
Whenever the press says "experts" or "authorities" I ignore the rest of the statement without exception. It's 100% propaganda.
The "experts" are rarely named, and when they are, they are employed by the gov't.
If you don't listen to the experts, you're uninformed.
If you do listen to the experts, you're misinformed.
it's never official until it's officially denied
Good point. The last time "scientists" were named and publicly signed something sensible was when The Petition Project convinced the Senate not to have anything to do with the Kyoto Kamizazi Plot which sought to outlaw energy as scientifically as the prohibitions on pot and psychedelics.
If indeed Putin did pay off Prigozhin,
If once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane
Putin probably paid him off with that 6 billion dollar accounting error.
Federal government accounting error in your favor, collect $6 billion.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Yeah the whole nuke situation is why I’d have hoped the leading lolbertarian publication in the country would have been a vocal critic of this administration’s policies regarding Ukraine.
But Orange Man Bad. And Oranges Man Bad. And they’re both Hitler.
"And they’re both Hitler."
Literally.
the only thing i'm certain of is that whatever the media is telling me about this is false.
^^
The looter media do live up to that, and democracy thanked it by casting 65% of possible votes to the entrenched, subsidized, looter Kleptocracy. The trick is to ignore all libertarian votes and all non-voters. That way the 34% of votes counted for the energy-banning looters looks like some fat win over the 31% tallied for the girl-bullying prohibitionist looters. The election only showed that for every ten voters, roughly three voted to defeat the one gang and another three to defeat the other. Nobody with half a brain voted FOR either geezer or his gangplank platform.
Why do you think it's only "the media" lying to you?
The media and the state have become indistinguishable.
https://twitter.com/Nikolai11449196/status/1673799738297073664?t=TiHqQJmDtkqA9cCNFkXJKw&s=19
Kramatorsk. After an alleged tip off from local informants a hotel with AFU and foreign merc’s was hit. Survivors have being filmed talking with American accents. Perhaps they were on vacation.
[Video, pics]
I hope they were mercs. The alternative is worse.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1674023498904215555?t=v7jTh_bBNjXRz1Z9IErEXw&s=19
????Missile strike in Kramatorsk summarized:
- Russian MoD reported today:
“In the city of Kramatorsk of the Donetsk People's Republic, the point of temporary deployment of the commanders of the 56th motorized infantry brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was hit.”
- Volunteers around the restaurant confirm that soldiers are under the rubble (video)
- Videos from the rescue and instagram posts confirm that (former?) Canadian and US soldiers were on site. (Next Post)
- The SBU arrested a “Russian spy” who have gave out the position for the strike in Kramatorsk. Now you don’t do that, if Russia randomly attacks civilians! You do that only if something important was hit. (Thread next post)
- Kramatorsk TG Channel says that Russians attacked a village with an Iskander missile and killed civilians. They show a lot of destroyed buildings, that are obviously rubble for month. (Video + screenshot)
- But at the end they show a crater in the middle of the road, which is being repaired. This crater fits the size of an S-300 missile. Such missiles Ukraine uses as AD in this region. (Patriots around Kiev)
- When an AD missile like S300 explodes a bunch of shrapnel fly around, that is by design to damage everything around it and injures people.
- Now Zelensky just said that Russia used an S300 missile to attack civilians. Directly contradicting the Kramatorsk TG report. (Screenshot)
????-> So if we puzzle this together, we can see what happened:
1) Russia launched a missile attack on a Hotel where NATO instructors and Ukrainian soldiers where living. (Hotels that close to the front, don’t have other clients, really.)
2) Russia hit directly during an army Pizza party. As instagram posts of western volunteers show.
3) Ukraine tried to shoot down the incoming Russian missile with a S300 SAM. This failed and it hit the village injuring civilians.
????Reminder: Just when Ukraine switched from S300 AD to Patriots in Kiev, Russians stopped attacking residential buildings in Kiev with S300 missiles. That is either the biggest coincidence recorded, or it was friendly fire previously.
PS: I was not able to confirm a US Blackhawk helicopter coming in, nor a misfired Storm Shadow. I found no evidence for this.
-> More detailed in the thread from the next post.
Note: It is very sad that innocent civilians were injured and killed. I hope this ends soon.
[Links]
This guy got a community note citing The Guardian, debunking the claim that it was a baracks, hotel or command center. The pizzaria was the target.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/deadly-russian-missile-strike-on-busy-pizza-restaurant-in-kramatorsk
We know this because the US and Ukraine and other western governments told them.
Also, it was intentional targeting of civilians. Including 2 attractive young blond girls.
(See guardian article)
Now tell me.... Which is propaganda, and which is truth?
The guardian makes no mention of a hotel being hit. Twitter guy says hotel was target and part of it collapsed. Guardian has no images of casualties. Has a picture of pizza place front and center. Has a photo of two pretty girls.
All the hallmarks of propaganda.
What about Twitter guy?
He pulls together a bunch of sources. Lots of video and pictures. Says pizza joint is collateral damage. Lots of talk about missile types.
To me, it is obvious that The Guardian article is state propaganda. It might not be wrong,but this isn't original reporting either.
Twitter guy could be sitting in some Russian FSBoffice for all I know, trying to spin things. But it at least has some on the ground stuff.
Who the fuck is this vague ‘Twitter guy’? That’s not a source of anything legitimate? And you know it if all you’re saying is “twitter guy’.
This is like the freaking X files
Jfree. Do you know what citations and primary sources are?
Do you understand that 'Twitter guy' - without even a link to it - is no different than 'Cigarette Smoking Man' on the X files or the 'Three Tramps' re JFK conspiracy. It's not a source. It's a prop for the conspiracy oriented to hang bullshit on.
How is the Twitter guy in any way vague? All of his posts are right there. They have actual images, video and audio. There is nothing remotely vague about it.
The link is right there too... what kind of idiotic attempt at gaslighting is claiming an extremely specific link is bot vague and not a link, directly responding to the link posts?
Nobody could possibly be this dumb. Is this some information theory strategy?
My favorite take was that Russia's army went from being the second most powerful in the world, then the second most powerful in Ukraine to the second most powerful in Russia.
I thought that was funny too.
If Wagner Group wanted a real insurrection, they would have donned horned hats and lounged in Politburo's desks.
That's how insurrection is done.
Does he even have a Shaman in his forces? Probably not.
The coup…was always about Prigozhin honestly just getting the best retirement package that he could
Bonus Army 2, Electric Boogaloo!
What is shows is that Putin's power ultimately rests on the favors given to his warlords. It really is Medieval. The power of the king was fragile and rested on his barons.
An old theory is that the Soviet Union did not arise from capitalism, but late stage feudal manorialism. Consider that Czarist Russia still had serfs in the 19th century. Putin is proof that Russia is politically and culturally backward, not even coming to grips yet with the Renaissance let along the Enlightenment.
I think that's why they hate Ukraine so much.
https://nypost.com/2023/06/27/wagner-coup-shows-how-primitive-russia-remains/
One of the references I've seen re the impact of this kerfuffle is an article by a Russian historian that compares what's happening to 1604 - Russia’s New Time of Troubles
It’s Not 1917 in Moscow—It’s 1604
Flashback: When Ronnie and Rambo were comandeering Afghan and Colombian dope dealers to resist the ruble and embrace Almighty Dollar prohibitionism, Foreign Affairs was an expensive lighthouse beacon of relative sanity. Then there was its commie imitator Foreign Policy, offering the Kremlin's alternative alongside Fusion Magazine in sheepskin, predictably offering China as this issue's nude centerfold. It is reassuring to see Foreign Policy still open for business and producing material the looter State Department ought to read. Nice input. Thanks.
God's Own Czar also banned most alcohol in 1914. His entire family was murdered with such thoroughnes that it took something like a decade to actually establish the murders and discover the remains. If tactical nukes in Belarus were to target Moscow, I'd bet the next government is NOT another czar. The next government in radioactive Japan sure as hell wasn't another God-appointed Emperor. People learn from nuclear weapons.
rambling babbling incomprehensible rambling LSD flashback
Senile Boomer Libertarians for Nuclear War Regime Change
Are civil commitment documents public record in Texas (where Hank lives)? I’ve considered checking to see if the dementia ridden old hippie is getting the help he needs.
And Ukraine, before being elevated to the next coming of Trotsky's dream was not considered the most corrupt state in eastern Europe? Funny how certain elements of the left and necon were all for peaceful co-existance with the USSR after they crushed movements in Hungary and Czech but now Russia is the threat. much of this goes back to the left's love of Trotsky. He lost and later Stalin pushed the intellectuals who the left/neocons viewed as their "brothers" out of power...so it really for the NYT, WaPo, CFR and others who are in charge of US foreign policy about Trotsky, Stalin and of course the Czar.
Maybe Russia and Ukraine are not worth any American treasure.
>>The outlook for Russia is now grim.
it was never going to be San Diego anyway.
If San Diego is anything like San Francisco these days, maybe that's a good thing ...
Wagner was obviously up to the job of punching through defenses and threatening the seat of government.
25,000 troops rebel, position themselves near Moscow, and take no casualties.
As a FOX talking head pointed out, they got closer to Moscow than Hitler could with 1 million troops.
They got within 200km.
The Wehrmacht did much better.
On 2 December, part of the 258th Infantry Division advanced to within 24 km (15 mi) of Moscow. They were so close that German officers claimed they could see the spires of the Kremlin.
A reconnaissance battalion managed to reach the town of Khimki, only about 8 km (5.0 mi) from the Soviet capital. It captured the bridge over the Moscow-Volga Canal as well as the railway station, which marked the easternmost advance of German forces.
And Napoleon actually captured Moscow.
...with nobody home... and mostly died getting back.
One truism about most authoritarian leaders is there is no retirement program. Prigozhin may have gotten a payoff but may not live long enough to enjoy his gains. Putin holds on for now, but when he is weak enough he will be gone. What Putin gained is a window into who are his enemies. In authoritative countries all the leader's friends are liars. Attempted coups like this often brings out the foes and the still loyal. I would expect corruption purges to start soon. Hopefully this will all take some of the wind from Putin sail and the Ukraine conflict can end or at least slow.
Coups are never a good thing, but I think there are other perspectives. Whatever took place behind closed doors, actual fighting was kept to a minimum. We know Putin doesn’t like Wagner having so much autonomy. No world leader would like a PMC becoming that powerful and battle tested. Dissolving Wagner and integrating them into MoD was going to be messy no matter what. Putin also managed to paint them as traitors despite the effort they have made for Russia. Would a weak leader with no hold on power succeed in forcibly integrating a highly capable PMC with minimal bloodshed? Especially considering Wagner were the heroes from a Russian propaganda point of view.
I think our collective distaste for Russia and desire for Ukraine to succeed and retake its internationally recognized borders has deluded some of us into thinking that Russia can’t win, yet here we are. Despite all the corruption and dysfunction within Russian government, they've taken more land, they aren't ceding it back, Putin is acting with impunity, and Ukraine can't continue without our support.
No world leader would like a PMC becoming that powerful and battle tested.
Very few world leaders would let mercenaries do all their fighting while then pretending that they controlled the mercenaries so well they could bury them in a bureaucracy of people who those mercenaries hate more than the Ukrainians.
The articles I've read indicate that roughly 1/3 of Wagner mercenaries are heading to Belarus with an unknown number just leaving the war and going home. So what is being folded into that Russian army that has done pretty much nothing for months?
I doubt Ukraine has the strength to take back what the Russians took over in 2014 or the first three days of their surprise invasion in Kherson and Zaporizhzhe. But I doubt the Russian army can do anything without Wagner and the Chechens (who sure as hell ain't gonna let themselves disappear)
Significantly more people fled Russia during the first conscription notices. They'll be fine.
Chechens are a joke at this point. Before negotiations, Putin tasked Kadyrov with taking on Prigozhin. As usual, Kadyrov did nothing. He's a paper tiger.
Can Palestian take back it's lost land from Israel? Just asking or is Ukraine some special case?
Palestine was a Roman renaming of the kingdoms of Israel and Judea to destroy the Hebrew connection to their land. There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. There are various stateless Arabs who were refused by the successors to their original states, but accepted by Israel. These claims to land are dubious at best and include unrealistic demands like a right of return to any descendants, which are purpose built to destroy the Jewish state.
The best thing for the so called Palestinians to do is to either integrate with Israel and accept living in a Jewish state, or move to an Arab nation. The conflict is the most overdue case of taking the L in recent history.
I think it’s oure fantasy that Outin will be quickly, or easily broken. The only caveat to that is his health. If the reports are true, and he really has some kind of aggressive cancer (or whatever), then he could be gone sooner than later. But make no mistake, the guy is a survivor. Or he wouldn’t be where he is now.
Although reading about foreign wars is frequently interesting, I'm not sure why we care about what's REALLY happening in Russia and Ukraine. There is literally nothing whatever the American people can do about it (it will be what it will be) and very little our government can do without interfering more directly in the conflict with unpredictable, possibly catastrophic, consequences. Although I agree that making sure the Ukrainians have enough ammo to resist the invasion militarily is the right thing to do here regardless of the consequences, I think the total unpredictability of possible outcomes in Russia makes it undesirable for us to do more than watch and keep our powder dry.
It is precisely because we can't influence any outcome in Russia - and aren't suspected of trying - that non-intervention-leaners should be trying to understand what is happening in Russia. 100% of the time people of that 'school' don't make any attempt to learn anything or know anything about anything outside the US. Which is why it will always be seen as the village idiot when it comes to some policy meeting in DC that relates to that country. Which is why no one gives a shit what that school thinks about anything and is why it will never be invited to that meeting. Which is why it cannot possibly ever have any influence whatsoever over US foreign policy unless the goal is to structure US foreign policy based on what the village idiot says about it.
Which is ok because most prefer virtue signalling and purism about a policy rather than being involved in the dirty work of trying to influence it.
I worked as a dues-paying volunteer on John Hospers' "Libertarian Defense Caucus" from 1982 until we stopped publication. The rate at which the looter Kleptocracy was able to infiltrate the LP platform committee with anti-American anarco-saboteurs funded by looter régimes exceeded our resources. The so-called "Dallas accord" subverted the Delcaration of Principles. Eliding the Roe-Population plank turned women voters against the LP. Despite all, LP spoiler votes have since 1972 reduced violent Kleptocracy meddling abroad and wiped out much superstitious prohibitionism at home. Oh, and we're still here.
Why supply Ukraine? it isn't an American security concern. Don't go abroad to find monsters to destroy...JQA.
The American Empire (born by the globalist neocons who took over our foreign policy at the end of the cold war) has been a massive failure. The traveling "democracy" train to enrich Goldman Sachs, push cultural marxism, and gay rights failed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen...and now eastern Europe. Give me George Keenan anytime over Nuland, Kaganovich, Perle and the rest.
We overthrew a democratically elected president in Ukraine in 2014..even if the guy was a scum bag you have the next election not overthrow for "democracy."
Now Zelinsky the fan boy who reminds the globalists of their hero Trotsky cancelled elections..."democracy"...
Not a penny to Ukraine..end the Fed, stop deficit spending, and end foreign intervention.
I thoroughly enjoyed this Reason article as well-written journalism thet puts all looter media to shame. Observe that none of the Orange-Outrage socks or minion media muppets EVER point to a magazine that is better than Reason. If there were such a thing, they'd do it in a fartbeat, rest assured.
Meanwhile, a popular plaint from the right-wingers here (though usually not as elegantly stated) is that Reason was - in the dim and distant past - a fine libertarian magazine which could be counted on to say things they wished to be true, but now it's a crypto leftist e-rag
ha ha ha...and American is looking like the end of the Roman Empire..endless wars, currency debasing, degeneracy.
Putin is stronger out of this as serious experts (listen to Judge Napolitano's Judging Freedom podcast) have pointed out. His approval rating is off the scale. Russians like a strong leader..."wimpy democratic" leaders like Biden don't sell well there.
The neocons and Reason's lover boy..Zelinsky (aka the new "Trotsky") is not the hero they think he is..he just stopped elections. So much for "democracy." And the offensive has so far been a bloodbath for Ukraine.
The issue isn't some war between two corrupt eastern european countries but the loss of liberty at home. Slava America..the enemy isn't Putin but the Fed, Alphabet Agencies, the Media and Academia.
Amen, expansionism, continual war and moral corruption brought down the great Roman Empire and it will bring down the USA too.
Russia has almost always been two Russia’s, the rural Russia of peasants and poverty that support and want dictatorship, and the cities where life has improved and there is dissent. I doubt that will ever change. But don’t fool yourself, Russians have always supported dictatorship and still do, and Putin has a lot of support and only a small amount of dissent.
This is a very good anti-Putin Russian site, but they tell you the truth, something you won’t find in US media.
https://russiavsworld.org/news/
Why do Russians support Putin? Analysis from a social psychologist.
https://russiavsworld.org/why-do-russians-support-putin/
-April 2, 2022