In Ukraine's Struggle for Survival, a Reminder of War's Harsh Moral Compromises
There’s no neat and clean way to fight a war, even for victims of aggression.

The main goal of nations at war, especially when the struggle is desperate, is to win and not necessarily to be nice about achieving that end. That can lead even sympathetic parties fighting for survival to commit immoral acts against their own people, allies, and civilians. As Ukraine and Russia alike deny responsibility for the destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam and the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines, and while the bodies of the innocent pile up in the wake of Russia's invasion of its neighbor, it's a reminder that war may sometimes be necessary, but it's always messy and destructive.
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The Bombings That Nobody Admits Doing
Last week's dam collapse in Russian-occupied southern Ukraine and the earlier demolition of pipelines carrying natural gas from Russia to western Europe left people tallying up the long-term costs. Both belligerent nations deny responsibility for the attacks, but evidence suggests that Russians took out the Nova Kakhovka dam and that Ukrainians were responsible for the pipeline.
"This is a logical move for the Russians…at least in the short term," geopolitical analyst Peter Zeihan commented about the dam. "To impede the Ukrainian counter-offensive, the Russians eliminated one of the few viable land crossings in the area and caused flooding further downriver. I wouldn't expect this to be an isolated event, either. As the Russians seek to inhibit Ukrainian advances, other crossings and dams will likely be targeted."
"New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year," The New York Times reported in March. "Ukraine and its allies have been seen by some officials as having the most logical potential motive to attack the pipelines. They have opposed the project for years, calling it a national security threat because it would allow Russia to sell gas more easily to Europe."
Why Not Claim Credit?
So, Russia benefited from the dam's destruction and Ukraine benefited from the severed pipeline. Why be coy about it? Well, both countries may have gained from their actions, but there was a lot of collateral damage. Civilians will suffer from the loss of the dam long after military planners move on.
"The destruction of the Kakhovka Dam was a fast-moving disaster that is swiftly evolving into a long-term environmental catastrophe affecting drinking water, food supplies and ecosystems reaching into the Black Sea," notes the AP.
Crimea's generally pro-Russian population also suffers, because the dam's destruction threatens the flow of fresh water to that peninsula.
Ukraine's government has its own reasons to deny responsibility for the pipeline attack.
"The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency warned the Ukrainian government not to attack the Nord Stream gas pipelines last summer after it obtained detailed information about a Ukrainian plot to destroy a main energy connection between Russia and Europe," reports The Wall Street Journal.
Obviously, the operation went forward anyway, and Ukraine's government undoubtedly prefers to maintain at least a shred of ambiguity regarding its responsibility. That takes on extra importance if it received help from Polish officials who long opposed Nord Stream because of the leverage it gave Russia, and whose relations with Germany have suffered over suspicions of a role in the incident. Maintaining not-so-plausible deniability allows alliances to continue while everybody pretends to not be furious with one another. That's not uncommon in warfare when governments take actions that have consequences beyond enemy combatants.
War as a Public Relations Game
"Political scientists have found that credit-claiming when it comes to warfare follows a strategic logic," Northeastern University's Max Abrahms and Joseph Mroszczyk of the U.S. Naval War College wrote earlier this month. "It turns out, both states and non-state actors are concerned with public relations to maximize their supporters around the world and avoid needlessly provoking adversaries. In practice, this means claiming credit for only a portion of their attacks—usually ones directed against military and other government targets which are seen as more legitimate."
Abrahms and Mroszczyk wrote specifically about Ukraine's selective claims of responsibility for some attacks, while remaining vague or denying responsibility for assassinations, drone strikes, and infrastructure attacks that hurt civilians or harm allies. Of course, the same considerations apply to the aggressor in this war: Russia.
"It's important to note that Russia has killed far more civilians than Ukraine at this point in the conflict," they added. "And yet, the evidence suggests that Ukraine has killed more Russian civilians than it has admitted to."
Ukraine is in the difficult position of defending against an invasion by a powerful neighbor. To survive, its government and military have resorted to tactics that aren't necessarily surgical or selective, that may do damage to friends, and that hurt the innocent. They do immoral things that they consider necessary, but they don't want to be blamed for them. The moral erosion of war has also affected the country's tolerance for dissent and eroded its people's freedom.
Compromises on the Home Front
Unsurprisingly, The Economist's Democracy Index 2022 reports that in already authoritarian Russia, "The regime sharply curtailed civil liberties in the aftermath of the invasion, further clamping down on dissenting voices and eradicating the last remnants of any opposition or critical media."
But citizens of the aggrieved nation also suffer at the hands of their own government. "In fighting a war that is widely understood to be existential, Ukraine's leaders have sometimes curtailed the rights and freedoms of citizens, political parties and the media," Democracy Index 2022 notes. "Much of this is par for the course in wartime, but such extraordinary measures have inevitably resulted in downgrades in various indicators in the Democracy Index."
Unfortunately, there's no neat and clean way to fight a war. Nations with their backs to the wall may have no choice as to whether to fight unless they want to surrender independence. Their efforts to prevail entail the temptation to kill innocents, hurt allies, muzzle critics, and otherwise win, or just survive. They justify such acts by claims of necessity.
Ukraine has every right to defend itself. Just by holding out, the country has already provided an important lesson to Russia and for potential aggressors elsewhere hoping for easy imperial conquests. But this conflict also reminds us that any war, even a justified one, involves death, destruction, and the suffering of innocents. Such moral compromises may be unavoidable for countries on the defensive, but they're very real.
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I'm at least glad to see the homeless and their tents congregate together.
One thing that is never justified in war is Spambottery.
And America is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian!
Won't be long now. Experts on Twitter told me Russia's military is days away from total collapse. Because they got stuck in some mud.
I heard the walls are closing in around Trump as well.
Maybe the United States shouldn’t have coordinated the coup on Russias border in 2014 for western multinational greed and Hunter Biden’s undeserved lucrative employment with corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs.
Putting the puppet Jew Zelensky in charge to coordinate Nazi AZOV battalions to terrorize the population in a bloody civil war with US funding and western propaganda.
Just saying.
Hunter and "The Big Guy" had dirty dealings with Russians too.
And you say "the Jew Zelensky" is a puppet and not a puppet master? What gives here?
In any event, Fuck Off, Nazi!
And you are quite willing to make the great sacrifice and give up Ukrainian freedom, self determination and sovereignty for peace.
Not my circus, not my monkeys.
I care significantly less about protecting Ukraine's territorial integrity than, say, that of the USA.
Which is a respectable position in itself, but has little to do with the sentiment of your original comment.
Well, I'm not sure exactly how you took my original comment, but my point was that while the Ukrainians have every right to fight as long and hard as they want, I don't want to pay for all this war materiel we're shipping them, which is thus encouraging them to fight (and die) for longer than they otherwise would. And also that I think it's kind of sick that we're funding the feeding of conscripts into a meat grinder.
If you don’t clap, tinkerbell will die!
The people of Crimea and the Donbas voted first for independence from Ukraine, then to become part of Russia.
Why doesn't their freedom and self determination in the face of Ukrainian+NATO aggression matter?
Votes administered by an occupying power after military conquest? That is supposed to be taken as definitive?
You are quite credulous where the former KGB man's propaganda is concerned.
But it's also not obviously illegitimate. I don't find it hard to believe that regions where a majority speaks Russian and consider themselves ethnically Russian might vote to be part of Russia, or at least to not be part of a country that is fairly hostile to Russia.
I don't know. But that doesn't mean that I or the US government should make the judgement and then try to enforce it. If those votes can be shown to accurately reflect the will of a majority of the population of those areas, wouldn't our support of Ukraine be helping to perpetrate an injustice and an attack on democracy?
Again, I don't actually know. But that seems like enough reason to stay out of it. Particularly when nothing from Russia or Ukraine or US officials on the subject seems the least bit trustworthy.
It's absolutely hilarious that you repeat State Department propaganda unsupported by the slightest bit of evidence.
You're just a different brand of branch covidian.
But you are good trusting the KGB man.
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Do you actually thinking being an ignorant jingoist regurgitating CIA propaganda is one iota better than regurgitating KGB propaganda you chickenhawk little faggot bitch?
It is better then being a Russian imperialist and jingoist.
Lol. Wow dude. I wasn't expecting you to actually own up to being a chickenhawk little faggot neocon bitch.
Can I get a LUB IT OR LEEB IT! chickenhawk?
Well, clearly, because blue-Anon & the very online social media mind-reading Gnostic cult members have informed it that it is so... MR is wrong on this take, which is a pity, as he (?) is capable of not supporting governmental overreach.
I trust my lying eyes, basic logic, and a memory that's longer than 5 minutes ago
It's vitally important to this cocksucker (who is most likely a piece of shit Reason staffer using one of their many sockpuppet handles) that many more generations of Bidens can continue to receive their six figure wire transfer payments from their foreign puppets without ever having to do a day of real honest work in their lives.
Why is it so important to him? Because he's a dumb brainwashed pathetic loser who couldn't come up with an independent thought of his own if his very life depended on it.
Wow. This really brings out the stupidity in the Russian simps.
One would think that even statist faggots like you would get tired of this bullshit at some point. Of us wasting countless years and trillions of dollars in our futile attempts to prop up these lazy, worthless, incompetent, corrupt puppet governments only to see them inevitably collapse in the end and disappear into the wind with our money, leaving us, the poor beleaguered American taxpayers standing there like a bunch of idiots with our dicks in our hands wondering exactly what the hell just happened.
It is the insistence to justify that the non-intervention argument is correct that demands to prove that Ukraine is evil, illegible and deserves to be damned that I am objecting to. It is the need to gild the liliy and make morally absurd assertions. It is rather like the people for pot legalization who also insist that marijuana is a wonder drug that heals everything with absolutely no adverse effects. You are getting irrationally angry at the mere assertion that Ukraine has a right to exist and a right to its territorial integrity. It is a nonsense response.
Before the invasion the press considered Ukraine to be hotbed of neo Nazis.
That changed overnight.
Weird huh?
Oh cut it out with this bullshit.
Not one person is claiming that people in Ukraine have no right to defend themselves against aggression. Of course they do. The debate is about American involvement and what (if anything) we owe them, and you know it. You're fooling nobody here.
Ukraine has a right to violently subjugate the Donbas and Crimea?
That's literally your argument, which suggests it's the position you take.
Do they also have the right to ethnically cleanse the population of those regions?
It's not necessary for Ukraine to be evil, illegitimate, which I assume is what your retarded fucking ass meant by "illegible", and deserves to be damned in order for it to not be entitled to one red cent of American money or one brass shell of American ammo, chickenhawk, it just so happens that the puppet regime you want to send other people's children to go die for IS evil, illegitimate, and deserves to be damned. Maybe next time you go chickenhawking for a neocon intervention you could pick a country whose government didn't come to power in a CIA-backed color revolution and that hasn't outlawed opposition political parties, outlawed religious expression, lied about its missile strike on Poland, lied about its detonation of NordStream, and stolen 200 billion dollars worth of US taxpayer money you pathetic little neocon faggot bitch.
Not correct. The people of Crimea and the Donbas voted overwhelmingly for Ukraine independence after the breakup of the Warsaw Pact. Then, after infiltration by Russia, and only then did the majority start to shift. It wasn't until 2014 that violence increased to the point of civil war, and even then it was not a majority in the Donbas region. Revisionism is also a feature of warfare.
The people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly for independence from the Soviet Union, not to be part of Ukraine. Their inclusion within Ukraine was always uncomfortable, mitigated only by the large degree of autonomy they had prior to 2014. The referendum to secede after the 2014 coup in Kiev was even more lopsided.
Finally, an on point factual comment that gets to the head of this orchestrated fiasco. Bitem and shitinsky wanted this war and baited Putin into it. Never mind the millions in Ukrainian territory that had been Russian before the U.S. manufactured yet another land and citizen grab. Millions still desire to be under Russian control. This war was manufactured by the bitem/obummer/clintskin cartel with that 4th rate as “President”.
War could easily been avoided, but bitem had his tiny boner up to hide his massive corruption.
Remember the Japanese Prime Minister who voted against war and sanctions? Assassinated a la Clinton style. And nary a word from the “free world”.
Democracy my arse. Bitem will burn the world down with Soros’ matches.
Wait ... you think Putin is a dupe who fell for being baited into invading Ukraine?! Bwahahahahahaaaaa!!
As long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight, we support them. If they decide to stop, we'll stop. We aren't forcing them to fight.
The people being kidnapped off the streets by SBU and sent to the front may beg to differ. The ones who are still alive at least
No evidence of that, but whatever.
Military conscription is a pretty common thing though.
Conscription is not being kidnapped off the street like the OP asserted.
Depends, it varies from country to country. Hell, until the mid 19th century,England literally kidnapped men from seaport towns to man the Royal Navy, And boarded even neutral country ships to kidnap sailors. That was also labeled conscription. So, yes conscription can literally be kidnapping off the streets they are not always distinguishable.
That sounds very libertarian, in the modern submit-to-state-authority version.
Often it is and has been historically. In any case, it comes down to the same thing.
There are many videos of it, but whatever.
Post. One.
Here you go chickenhawk.
snap!
Why?
No seriously, why the fuck should I pay for this bullshit? Are we supposed to pay for *every* country that's been invaded?
We only pay for the country’s that are disobedient.
When it comes to increasing the human cost of the inevitable Russian victory, Biden (or whoever it is that's actually running the administration) will spare no expense.
Unless the plan has always been to eventually escalate to WW3 once Russia and China have a more fully formed alliance as the new "Axis"? I hope that's not the case, but I'm also stocking up at least a few months' supply of iodine tablets just in case I happen to survive the first strikes.
Congratulations! I think that may be a new record for the number of incorrect assertions per total word count in a post on a Reason forum!
I think you’re still the record holder.
I live and work *well* within the airburst radius of a first strike target, so I don't bother to worry. I have supplies for *other* flavors of apocalypse, but if the nukes go, I'm just dead and that's all there is to it. It's kinda freeing.
Putin is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, Russian, and anyone his nukes destroy.
Ctrl+F immigra = 0/0
Ctrl+F refugee = 0/0
What's this? Something about Ukraine that isn't just the 10 billionth demand for the open borders policy that Reason's sugar daddy has been promoting since Russia and Ukraine were part of the USSR?
#ItBrokeNewGround
Enh, it wasn't Fiona.
Oh... so the Grabbers Of Pussy lost after bringing back Comstockism, and it was all because of a single baad Sugardaddy Votebucks? We need smelling salts on aisle R.
This thinkpiece was about how Ukraine blew up the pipeline...
Shitbird did manage to 'both sides' it with the assertion that Russia destroyed the new Kakhovka dam; coming to the realization in print that it wasn't Russia that took out Nordstream 2 now is par for the course.
Rule one in war: people die.
Rule two in war: nothing can change rule one.
Meh. What about the environmental damage!!!
What about it?
Man is part of the ecosystem; if we eradicate an inefficient species, that is Darwinism, not vandalism.
The rapid golbal depopulation that will result from the onset of WW3 is really the only workable way to reduce human CO2 emissions as much as the people who claim to believe in the coming climate change "catastrophe" say is needed.
It's hard to figure as to how much anyone really believes the oceans are on the verge of swallowing half the coastal land on the planet while they're spending $millions purchasing beachfront estates in the Hamptons and Martha's Vineyard.
Although that does indeed seem to be the premise of this opinion piece, I take exception to the downplaying of the role ethics and morality should play in the war; and also I disagree with the suggestion that both sides are committing bad stuff. It makes a big difference to me which party is the aggressor in a war and which side is the victim. During World War II the United States had no good reason to fire-bomb Dresden for example - doing so was an atrocity any way you look at it! On the other hand, when you are trying to carefully destroy the enemy's industrial infrastructure an occasional bomb or bomb run is going to miss the intended target and kill "innocent" civilians. If people can't see the difference between those two situations, then it's due to a lack of ethics and morality.
More lives will be lost in this war for no reason because of rationalizations like this encouraging it to go on.
We can have peace if only people would stop resisting tyranny.
They should give it up “without a hassle”.
What if it's two tyrants fighting each other? Is the toll on lives and infrastructure worth it?
Of course every country gets to defend itself. But at some point you have to cut losses and negotiate. That's how pretty much all the borders in Europe came to be. Why is this so different? War sucks, nation states suck, but that's the world we live in.
If one of those tyrants represents the government that unleashed unspeakable horrors upon the others population, going to guess, yes it is worth it to them. And yes at some point both sides will need to agree to peace but that won't happen till clear lines of control are established. Ukraine thinks with western arms it can possibly reclaim Crimea. The Russians think they can just out man the Ukrainians and take the whole country back. Until both of those possibilities are off the table, the war will most likely continue.
And they are welcome to it. I just don't want anything to do with it or any of my money going to keeping it going.
The original assertion is that the war is happening for “no reason”. A desire for conquest is a reason, resisting conquest is a reason.
What seems to be contended here is that the Ukrainians should stop resisting because certain people find their impudence in not being rolled over by Russia annoying
The Ukrainians are the aggressor.
That is such tiresome nonsense.
Then stop repeating State Department talking points.
How the fuck you gonna bitch about anyone else when you're on here telling us to trust the Russia hoaxers, covid hoaxers, crt hoaxers, pride hoaxers, etc- sources that lie about literally everything, but they totes have credibility here...
And your position is utterly dependent on the veracity of Putin.
Not in the slightest.
Putin didn't tell me about NATO's aggression in the Balkans or Middle East. That NATO's expanded in the Baltic despite having no justified reason for existence anymore. The CIA's extensive history of regime change. The thorough evil that composes the US State Department. The untrustworthiness of my own government. The sinister plans of globalist elites.
Some of us are actually capable of understanding the information we receive and processing the motivations for the way its presented.
You're flailing here. You've got nothing but branch covidian style name calling.
NATO making alliances is "aggression"?
Being skeptical of the government does not justify the depths of self-loathing you are plumbing here.
NATO is a defensive alliance that has never sent troops into any country unless they were invited. Who is afraid of a defensive alliance? AN AGGRESSOR.
Ever since Prince Oleg began his conquests in the 10th Century, the only time Russia has gone more than half a century without invading a neighbor was when they had been conquered by the Golden Horde. Putin just wants to continue this pattern.
The current ex-KGB president of Russia is not as socialist as the current president of the USA.
Contemplate that on the tree of woe.
Pretty fuckin' gross, innit?
OTOH, the current President of the US was never a member of any secret police.
The assertion was that lives are being lost in the war for no reason. I might change that to "no good reason", but that's just my judgement. Ukrainians can decide if it's good enough reason or not. But there is no good reason for the US to be involved.
I think Ukrainians could have ended this a long time ago with some concessions of territory and had a lot fewer dead and a much less destroyed country. That seems like a very reasonable resolution given the fact that there are a lot of people there who don't want to be part of Ukraine and the arbitrariness of the borders set by the USSR.
The entire reason for the US to be involved is to push NATO onto Russia's borders and continue it's Cold War era aggression.
If you believe that "aggression" is NOT invading other countries and trying to defend them against invaders.
You didn't say "resisting conquest" chickenhawk, you said "resisting tyranny." Out of the two countries disputing this "conquest", only one has outlawed opposition political parties, suspended elections, jailed religious minorities and outlawed religious expression. Can you guess which one it is, chickenhawk?
Conquerors are usually tyrants.
And the Russians have committed a number of atrocities in this war, that you do not give a damn about.
"I love Big Brother!"
-Mickey Rat
The Big Brother poster is the spitting image of Putin. Project much?
Putin hasn’t restricted my liberties, but Biden has.
Absolutely correct. I don't give a damn about the "atrocities" most of which have been shown to be staged just like your Ghost of Kyiv and Arma III footage. I also wouldn't give a damn about what a repressive shit hole Ukraine is if it weren't for neocon bitch chickenhawks like you agitating to start a nuclear war with Russia and get millions of American young men killed to satisfy your boomer cold war Tom Clancy novelization.
Bullshit! Putin was doing all of those violations of human rights and civil liberties long before either 2014 or 2022!
And if you are referring to Ukraine shutting down the Russian Orthodox Church, that is no different from kicking out a tentacle of the Putin regime, since it is the established State Religion of Russia and supports the war against Ukraine.
The Russian Orthodox Church and what it does would be no different than, say, the Lutheran Church in the U.S. harboring nests of Nazi spies and terrorists or recruiting people to fight for Nazism during World War II. It should be dealt with no differently.
Hmmm. Pretty fucking sure even if the Lutheran church harbored Nazis (which branch btw, and as all Lutheran Churches are independent entities within a larger, voluntary organization, and there is actually two different larger Lutheran organizations that govern the separate branches, neither of which allows cross communion) kicking them out is illegal, and illiberal. Banning a religion because it doesn't toe the line is pretty far from libertarian. Your hatred of religion has been noted, as has your extreme lack of knowledge in regards to Christianity in particular, this statement also seems to indicate you don't understand libertarianism, classical liberalism or enlightenment. Good job, libertine.
Sorry. The right to freedom of conscience includes responsibility for respecting everyone else's Individual Rights, including the right to self-defense against invasion and tyranny.
A religious body that is allied with an invading tyranny and is indeed a part of that invading tyranny clearly doesn't fit the bill. Nor would a mosque doing double duty as an Islamic terror cell or a platform for planting Islamic Theocracy in Secular free societies.
Rather ironic coming from the bootlicking Nazi faggot. But nope, bootlicking Nazi faggot: murdering religious minorities is not justified, whether its your Nazi forebears murdering those evil Jews who were undermining polite white German society or the dirty Russkie Orthodox undermining polite Nazi Ukrainian society. If you want to cast Russia as an evil villain for the same tyranny you cheer on like a bloodlusting piece of shit Nazi faggot when your side does it, feel free to keep beclowning yourself.
Is that a hypothetical, or are you seriously trying to make a false equivalence between a tyrant who without provocation invaded a previously peaceful nation and a statist who is legitimately trying to defend his nation against imperialist aggression by the neighboring tyrant? Does it matter to you that it's not just two tyrants fighting each other? Or do you really think Ukraine's elected leader is "just as guilty" for the war deaths as Putin is?
America is guilty for the war dead in Ukraine.
Get your head out of your ass.
” are you seriously trying to make a false equivalence between a tyrant who without provocation invaded a previously peaceful nation and a statist who is legitimately trying to defend his nation against imperialist aggression by the neighboring tyrant”
Anyone this dishonest is an evil piece of shit who cannot be tolerated by a functional society.
If the best your propaganda can do is try to claim that Putin is a merciless tyrant while you rationalize Zelensky murdering his own fucking people and suspending elections so that they can't have a voice in whether they want to continue his bloodlust campaign against the ethnic Russian regions of Ukraine, you should maybe have a think about what you're defending you pathetic little chickenhawk neocon bitch.
Can you define which types of tyranny we need to resist? Many countries call the US the tyrants. So what is your definition for all of us to use?
You need someone to tell you how Putin's Russia is a tyranny?
Are you denying the evidence of Ukraine's tyranny? Forbidding males 18-55 from leaving the country so they can be drafted? Handing the FBI special envoy a list of social media accounts of Americans they want shut down, including journalists? Banning rival political parties? Banning churches? Controlling the media? Etc... Russia may vary well be a tyrannical state, but Ukraine is hardly a bastion of enlightenment and liberalism. It's sort of like the Iran-Iraq War (which I would point out the US supported the aggressor in that war, Iraq and then ended up going to war with the dictator we supported twice in a decade, I'd also point out the US supported Noriega before deciding to take him out, and only took out Qaddafi after he began to moderate, so we hardly have a good track record in this regard, oh also the US helped fund Mao and Ho Chi Minh during the Second World War, but then ended up fighting wars against both within a generation after the end of the war, I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, Lend Lease to the Soviets, Stalin was hardly any better than Hitler, South Korea was a military dictatorship until the 1970s, I mean the list just keeps writing itself).
Do the Ukrainians want to live under Russian domination? Russia's aggression is unjust. That the Ukrainian government is less than pure is less than relevant in regards to the war. Ukraine does not deserve to be conquered and its infrastructure destroyed and its civilians murdered because you thinknits government is imperfect.
Your willingness to judge Ukraine for its sins but not Russia is weird.
I'm not judging either idiot. I'm saying supporting one tyrant over another has a piss poor history. It never works out. I don't care what the Ukrainians want, it isn't worth my son's or nephews life. As both are in high casualty MOS, if the balloon goes up, because of our meddling my family will pay. I'm betting like most chicken hawks you never served and have no one you care about serving. So, it's easy for you to be jingoistic because you won't pay the price. So, kindly fuck off. Let Ukraine fight their own war, it isn't our business And we have a very bad history when it comes to fighting these proxy wars. I gave you a list of our past experiences, that you chose to ignore. Russia can be the aggressor, Ukraine can be defending herself, it doesn't matter, because it isn't our fucking business, idiot. Typical chicken hawk, willing for others to die but not willing to die yourself for your supposed principles. BTW, I can speak as I went back in after 9/11, volunteered for service in Iraq and Afghanistan (ended up stateside providing medical support and training for deploying soldiers). Also, I'm fourth generation Army, my son is fifth, and I've had a family member in every single major conflict this country has fought. So, this isn't academic for me and my family.
Nice retreat to your motte, but that was not the original assertion.
Yes it was, dipshit. Try Hooked on Phonics to improve your reading comprehension chicken hawk.
Show me what I wrote is different than my original post. Come on I bet you can't, so you instead lie about my post, and the meaning, which anyone with at least a sixth grade reading level would be able to discern. I stated Ukraine is also a tyrannical state. I stated further that we have a poor history when supporting one tyrant over another, and then gave an extensive list of examples. So, in summary, exactly what my first sentence in my subsequent reply to you states, what you call a motte. Yeah, someone used a Motte, but it wasn't me. I, did expand on my original thought, but I clearly reiterated my original post in a summarized thesis statement, ergo, it isn't even close to a fucking motte, dipshit. Maybe take some remedial reading classes. Fuck, that takes the cake for the stupidest statement I've read today.
Or shorter: say you don't know what a Motte and Bailey is without saying you don't know what a Motte and Bailey is. Shaking my fucking head at the sheer imbecility.
Because the bailey was JesseAz's original post, which you, for some reason, chose to white knight.
That isn't how that fucking works. First of all pointing out Ukraine is also a tyranny and we have a really poor history of picking one tyrant over another is hardly white knighting. Pointing out your condemnation of Russia for being a tyranny is not an acceptable argument when Ukraine is also guilty of tyrrany is pointing out the weakness of your argument not white knighting for the OP. Also, I never once stated I agreed with the OP, so you're condemning my statement via guilt by association, which is usually the sign of someone who can't defend their position when questioned. Further, you can't accuse someone of Motte and Bailey based upon someone else's post, that is stretching it beyond any accepted definition. Basically, you were unable to rebut my point so you used a bullshit accusation to attack me instead. That is dishonest and very close to an ad hominem. You're basically stating I'm guilty of motte and Bailey by association, rather than what I actually wrote. Yeah, that's pretty fucking weak sauce and reinforces my accusation you don't understand what a Motte and Bailey is. I am not responsible for what Jesse wrote, I was responding to you not to Jesse. You just admitted you couldn't rebut what I wrote so you instead decided to make a dishonest accusation to discredit that argument. And since my post never mentioned or even referred to OPs comment, to call it a retreat is pure bullshit and you know it. I think you realized you replied to the wrong person but can't ever admit you're wrong and apologize you instead go with the weakest bullshit deflection possible. You're definitely showing your true colors. Keep digging chicken hawk.
Massive fail! If you can't see the difference between a peaceful nation working out its differences internally and a former empire trying to reclaim its former empire by unprovoked military invasion then you can go piss up a tree! Also, if you can't see the point in the US providing intel and weapons to the victim, regardless of your approval of their politics, to help them throw the Russian military back out of their nation then you may want to see a doctor for possible deterioration in your cognitive status.
Sure you said the same thing about Diem's regime. Or Hussein's or Noriega's or Mao's etc. All of who we did the same thing. Gee how did those work out for us? Risking WWII for a country that can credibly be accused of tyranny is the fail, not protesting against it. Remember why we entered WWI? Oh because we were supplying weapons to England and France so Germany decided to sink our shipping and ask Mexico to invade us. Also, remember why Japan attacked us in 1941, oh because we were arming the Chiang Kai Chek and embargoing Japan.
Also, you used a lot of buzzwords that didn't actually refute my point of even address it. Basically, your response is the massive failure for using emotional buzzwords instead of reasoned refutation. Appeals to emotions rarely are evidence of a well reasoned argument. No one said Ukraine shouldn't fight, I did say we shouldn't be arming them and risking war with another nuclear power. History shows by arming someone often actually leads to you getting attacked. Is Ukraine worth my son dieing or worth nukes landing on NYC? If not why risk the war. Let Ukraine fight their own war. By providing support we're risking war. As stated both world wars, we got drawn into them specifically because we were offering very similar support to what we're doing in Ukraine. So, history also demonstrates that it isn't simply providing support, it's courting war.
You're a monster, and a pathological liar.
If Ukraine's CIA-installed government deploying actual fucking neo-Nazi death squads to murder ethnic Russians is just "a peaceful nation working out its differences internally" then you might want to see a physician about assisted suicide, because you're an amoral piece of shit lying psychopath who needs to die at the soonest possible opportunity. For that matter, since you're so gung-ho about sending millions of other people's children to die for your CIA-backed color revolution, maybe you could buy a ticket and jump on plane and take up a post on the front lines, chickenhawk.
Want in one hand and shit in the other, chickenhawk. See which one fills up faster. I don't give a fuck what Ukrainians do or don't want. They can fight Russia to the last man until every square inch of their artificially-constructed borders is crimson red with the blood of the 60 year old conscripts they're sending to the front. Just not on my dime. If you want to go volunteer, chickenhawk, I'll pay for your plane for your plane ticket.
Your willingness to ignore Ukraine's sins so you can portray them as an innocent victim and support American neocon foreign policy is weird, chickenhawk.
Sticks and stones. Angry poster is angry.
At least he knows what a fucking Motte and Bailey is, unlike you.
"It's the Pax!.."
That's as far as I'll go without spoiling the plot.
“but evidence suggests that Russians took out the Nova Kakhovka dam and that Ukrainians were responsible for the pipeline.”
Brave to put this out there, might be the first time I’ve seen it in a more or less “mainstream” news source without weaseling. Kudos JD.
The Ukrainians also bombed Poland and killed 2 people. By all rights the US should attack Ukraine, not help them
Luckily the Poles had evidence of who the missile came from and quickly put it online, while Zelensky and his pals in US intelligence called for action against Russia’s attack against a NATO member. This happened less than a year ago, totally memory holed.
The Poles didn't put the evidence out there, some random Polish farmer did. The Polish government wasn't happy about that.
An errant SAM launched to shoot down a ballistic missile isn't on Ukraine's ledger. If the Russians hadn't launched their missile, the Ukrainians wouldn't have either in response.
Sure thing pedo Pete, sure.
There is 0 evidence whatsoever that Russia took out the dam.
NATO propaganda is throwing Ukraine under the bus for the pipeline bombing because they'll eventually need an excuse to bail on Ukraine and have whipped up people like Mickey into too much of a frenzy to sell withdrawal easily.
Just curious, but when did reporting the news become "brave?"
Ask the reporters being kidnapped, beaten, and/or killed by Ukraine's secret police.
Or the woman in Germany who's been imprisoned for reporting off narrative.
Or the American reporters that the Ukrainian security forces tried to get the FBI to investigate and censor on social media, as Twitter has reported.
Oh and BTW the FBI did pass the list on to Twitter (and presumably other media sources) and leaned on Twitter to ban their accounts but Twitter told them to pound sand basically as several of the names were journalists in the US and Canada and additionally there was zero evidence they were Russian agents as the Ukrainians charged because they wrote stories critical of Ukraine.
Good call, soldier.
Forgot that one
Did you give a fuck about Ukraine in 2014 when Obama backed a revolution to over throw the goverment? Did you give a fuck about Ukraine between 2014 and 2021 when they were actively killing eastern Ukrainians?
If the answer to that is no, which it is for this particular writer, the why do you give a fuck now?
Tuccile is the personification of the meme I support whatever trendy
Did the US regime tell us to give a fuck in 2014? Or any time before 2022?
Besides the Billions gifted it to help investments from dems and the Atlantic Council?
There is no reality before 2022.
"Did you give a fuck about Ukraine between 2014 and 2021 when they were actively killing eastern Ukrainians?"
The overall number of estimated deaths in the war in Donbas, from 6 April 2014 until 31 December 2021, was 14,200–14,400. This includes about 6,500 pro-Russian separatist forces, 4,400 Ukrainian forces, and 3,404 civilians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
The 3404 number is not attributed solely to one side or the other.
So that makes the US starting a Civil War in Ukraine okay?
Does it make partisan lying about what's actually happening okay? First you picked a side, then you started cherry-picking factoids that you think support your opinions, then you make up outright lies about those factoids and then pretend that you have refuted your opponents with your slogans. Nice try, but no cigar.
Eat the slop the MSM feeds you pig.
I think the lying faggot needs to stop commenting here and sign up with Azov.
The dude literally won a Nobel Peace Prize. Why would anyone suspect there might be negative consequences to his initiatives?
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Unless you're arguing "The Broken Window Fallacy" against Putin's aggression, go away!
"The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency warned the Ukrainian government not to attack the Nord Stream gas pipelines…Obviously, the operation went forward anyway
Not that I believe a word of this, but if Ukraine’s consequence for defying the CIA was for Biden to keep throwing money at them, I doubt they will learn their lesson.
"The main goal of nations at war, especially when the struggle is desperate, is to win and not necessarily to be nice about achieving that end. That can lead even sympathetic parties fighting for survival to commit immoral acts against their own people, allies, and civilians."
Is this, like, lessons for Gen Zers?
See Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.
As Ukraine and Russia alike deny responsibility for the destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam and the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines,
*facepalm*
can't. even.
"The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency warned the Ukrainian government not to attack the Nord Stream gas pipelines last summer after it obtained detailed information about a Ukrainian plot to destroy a main energy connection between Russia and Europe," reports The Wall Street Journal.
JFC, Reason, you're really going with the same CIA/FBI-connected news media that pushed the Steele Dossier, Russia Collusion, 100% Safe and Effective With No DownSides, Lockdowns and Masks Worked, It's-just-private-corporations, there-is-no-cancel-culture, it's-all-about-bathrooms, Oh-my-god-stop-attacking-Trump-you're-just-feeding-his-paranoid-fantasies with you for four years?
Really? REALLY?
This shouldn't surprise you.
It can still disappoint me, however.
I was led to believe the Red Army ran out of gas like a year ago. it is interesting to watch Godfather Brandon use a thugocracy and innocent Ukrainians to protect his own interests
So far most stories on the Ukrainian counteroffensive, especially from the Blue-Yellow Flag wavers, are extremely muted, which leads me to suspect that it isn't going very well. Also, the few stories that do try and perform analysis seem to point to Ukraine being repulsed with heavy losses of western supplied equipment. Which isn't really surprising, because digging out an entrenched enemy is the hardest tactical problem, always has been, likely always will be. Fuck, even during Desert Storm Powell and Schwarzkopf didn't attack the Iraqis head on but went around their hardened positions.
They're getting wiped out, and it was obvious they would. The counter offensive was suicide from the beginning. Ukraine has telegraphed that its coming, and where it's coming, for months. The Russians have fortifications, minefields, multiple lines of defense, total air superiority, a huge artillery advantage. The Ukrainians are being sent in with no air cover, insufficient artillery, almost no air defenses, and no element of surprise. And they're just being ground down. It's horrific.
But it's also USEFUL to a particular set of people, who can't wait to throw good cash after bad.
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What is unfortunate is not that Ukrainians and Russians (and most everyone else on Earth over the age of 6) live in a real world that is full of gray
What is unfortunate is that the usual suspects are so compelled to see only black and white that they create a world based on a fairy tale of conspiracies – and then pretend that’s the real world.
Given that we have supported one tyrant against another for decades, and then usually ended up going to war against our supposed allies within a generation, maybe it would be a good idea for you and others to listen to the black and white thinkers. Stalin, Mao, Minh, Noriega, Hussein, Mujahideen, etc for references.
You're the usual (dimwitted) suspect
Agreed. The CIA agitprop portraying Ukraine as a liberal democracy heroically fighting against Russian oppression as a US military proxy is pretty disgusting. That is what you meant, right chickenhawk?
Los Alamos changed warfare by putting dictators at risk along with their willing dupes. Germany surrendered after Hitler kept his platform promise, amid countervalue bombs shortening his lead. Japan required two bombs, the second of which proved there were more to come. Politicians and their enablers were suddenly at risk. Cheering as conscripts are press-ganged "over there" is very different from being toasted by matter conversion. Ukraine was silly to disarm, and Russians are silly for letting Putin become Czar. Their loss.
You don't need nukes to put the leaders of rogue nations in the cross-hairs. Murder drones are more than capable.
Given? You just made a black-and-white assumption about what is real and what is made up.
Hey, aren't you the retarded piece of shit who thinks the CIA assassinated Hugo Chavez to discredit his glorious socialist utopia? Is there any special reason why the very same CIA is the good guys in Ukraine, chickenhawk? Or do you just make black-and-white assumptions about what is real and what is made up based on whatever paranoid delusion you happen to be suffering from on any given day?
Is also the POS who supported denial of medical care and basic services if a person was not vaccinated for covid. A very pro-tyranny asshat, and always has been. Worthy of derision each and every time it posts.
...because; that's what Communist and Socialist nations do.
They think Gov-Gun use accomplishes everything and makes things.
When really they are just criminals in sheeps clothing (propoganda).
Every Communist or Socialist nation resorts to Killing and Stealing as their bottom-line.
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Could not care less about this European problem.
Maybe, just maybe if that slimy scumbag Obama and equally slimy NATO hadn't involved themselves in Ukraine and pushed the Maiden along none of this would have to happen. Just maybe if scumbag Obama hadn't sent his little Trotskyite zionist whore Victoria Nudelman over there with her poisonous cookies, the American people wouldn't be forced to shell out nearly $200 billion in aid and material to that little coke sniffling jew who appears to have stolen a great deal of it. After all how would he have been able to afford that nice little $30 million cottage in Florida, right next to Nancy's.
And thanks to a brain dead Joe Biden, who's ten times more corrupt than Donald Trump and his catastrophic military and aid packages to that worthless toilet Ukraine, that's never seen a day of democracy in its entire existence.
It's okay when the neo-Nazi Ukies shell Donbass murdering more than 12,000 ethnic Russians but when Putin gets pissed off about it the west suffers from amnesia.
F*** Joe Bide, f***Ukraine, f***NATO
Have to say I can't argue with anything you're saying. Even if I would have said it a little less gusto.
'If you care about government overreach and tangible threats to everyday liberty, this is for you.' Tuccille, you need to lay the fuck off the krokodil. Libertarian-lite, libertarian in name only, and libertarian as a luxury belief for the cocktail crowd of progressives disqualifies one from being capable of concern about gov't overreach. And you very online left-leaning yahoos make your ducats inventing new 'tangible' threats to everyday liberty.
Unfortunately, there's no neat and clean way to fight a war.
There's no neat and clean way to avoid a war either. Or to end one.
Putin will never de-escalate. There is no peace. There is no possible non-involvement by us because the POINT of his invasion was to elevate Russia back into great power status by creating a contest with the US. It had little to do with Ukraine and everything to do with Russian self-perceptions. Like most foreign policy actions by everyne. If we declined this particular challenge, then there always another one. There won't be a regime change in Russia either. At least not the sort that might be better.
IOW - life's a bitch. Suck it up. It would be much better for the US if we get more people involved in the foreign policy discussion than just the beltway crowd of careerists and empire builders. Those folks always make bad decisions. But apparently we just abdicate everything governance-related now. Same with the militia idea and covid.
Well now Russia's self-perception is that they a generation behind technologically on the battlefield, and that the military draft is a reminder of who their true enemy is.
Russians aren’t westerners.
They accept their fate as canon fodder.
Agree they aren't westerners or European. Not sure they accept their fate as cannon fodder. But it is probably true that IF Russians don't want to accept their fate as cannon fodder (1917 is an example of when Russians revolted against that fate), they will first have to BE cannon fodder and see how that works.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/06/28/what-does-a-pride-parade-have-to-do-with-nato-more-than-you-might-think/
"Crimea's generally pro-Russian population "
Tuccille, don't you know you aren't allowed to say that they might prefer the the bad pseudo-democracy that bans political opposition over the other the good pseudo-democracy that bans political opposition?
Really, war should be a crime like any other crime. If you order the invasion of another country, you are criminally liable for everyone who is killed or injured, and criminally liable for all buildings that are destroyed. Murder drones could take out leaders who initiate wars of aggression, and such wars would slow down a bit. I can think of one reason why certain powerful nations don't enact such a policy, and it's because they want to reserve the option to launch their own wars of aggression in the future, without being murder-droned themselves.
The one thing no one talks about is assuming Ukraine did win. Then what? Do you think Russia will sit well with that? Where will Ukraine stop? At their borders? Or will they start taking bits of Russia too? Then how would they hold onto them? Also, in a Ukranian win, who is going to pay to rebuild a completely rubbleized Ukraine? The US? NATO? Who? I don't want to, but my government is already promising them infinite tax payer money to support them. This is fuckery.
The consequences of a Ukraine victory would be horrific. The possibility of nuclear war would increase exponentially. Putin would be deposed and replaced by someone far, far worse. NATO may even invade Russia. The Donbas and Crimea would be ethnically cleansed, killing millions. And it would cost Americans trillions of dollars.
Russia can't win either. Even if they conquer what they claim, they can't hold it. A post-war resistance and blowback will be decentralized, uncontrollable, and brutally violent
What they took is primarily Russian speaking provinces that identify more as Russian than Ukrainian. There would be very little actual resistance. How much resistance is there in the provinces that Russia took from Georgia in 2008? Almost zero. Because during the Soviet era the Soviet government relocated the natives out of those provinces and settled Russians in them for express purpose of tying the satellite countries closer to the Russian dominated USSR. God, do all you idiots with a hard on for war with Russia not fucking study history?
"Russia will never be able to hold the territories in which the people voted via referendum to join Russia... because the people will rebel!"
Some truly special analysis from jfree there
What they took is primarily Russian speaking provinces that identify more as Russian than Ukrainian.
Kherson Oblast - 82% Ukrainian ethnicity (2001); 90% oppose joining Russia (2014 poll); 90% voted for independence in 1991
Zaporyzhzhia Oblast - 71% Ukrainian ethnicity and 48% of population speaks Russian primarily (2001); 91% voted for independence in 1991
Donetsk Oblast - 56% Ukrainian ethnicity and 65% of population speaks Russian primarily (2001); 84% voted for independence in 1991
Luhansk Oblast - 58% Ukrainian ethnicity and 68% of population speaks Russian primarily (2001); 84% voted for independence in 1991
Crimea Oblast - 58% Russian ethnicity and 80% of population speaks Russian primarily (2001); 54% voted for independence in 1991.
'Speaking Russian' is obviously a bit silly as its own measure since the Soviet Union required Russian in school and Russian was the official language. In 1989, Ukrainian was the primary language in Ukraine for only 19% of people - though 57% had some knowledge of it as a secondary language. That didn't work to 'cement a Russian identity' by even 1991 though did it - even though it was sufficient for Putin to claim 'Russkiy Mir' in 2007.
God, do all you idiots with a hard on for war with Russia not fucking study history?
Maybe you should spend a bit more effort studying real history and a bit less getting a hard on for Putin's propaganda. Otherwise - you believe stuff - adamantly believe it too - that just ain't true.
This is the sort of war propaganda garbage I expect from the corporate press Reason and the most damning indication yet that you've become little more than controlled opposition for the establishment. Its the most disgraceful article I've ever seen you publish. The United States and NATO have walked away from peace talks and are risking nuclear war and you're selling me the war machine spin that the heroic Ukrainians must fight for their survival rather than hammering out a peace treaty. You sit there making excuses for Ukraine committing war crimes pretending this is a war for survival and not a war to control the oil fields in a province of Ukraine that wanted to secede and become an independent republic. No mention that much of the land Ukraine is fighting to take back wanted to secede after President who was democratically elected in the 2014 election was unconstitutionally removed from office, that Ukraine had been using military force to keep those people from gaining their independence. No mention of the Burisma owned oil fields in East Ukraine that are clearly an objective for both Ukraine and Russia. Burisma a company which bribed both the Biden family and numerous other well connected political power players in the US and Europe by giving them phony board of director jobs paying out millions. I mean for God's sake how do you write an article about Nordstream and not mention that Biden was the most likely culprit? How do you see Ukraine committing all these war crimes and still immediately conclude that the Russians must have blown up the dam even though it cuts off the water supply to their own city and floods their own people? How do you not mention that Ukraine had already talked about blowing up the dam earlier in the war? This is a disgraceful war and you should be ashamed of yourself for selling this psychotic conflict that has put us at the greatest risk of a nuclear war since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Putin, Zelensky, Biden and the NATO establishment are all twisted war mongering filth and so are you for taking sides in this sick conflict and not calling for a cease fire and peace treaty.
Donetsk deserves to be an independent republic with control over its own politics and its own resources free of the control of Moscow, Kiev and Washington. Throwing hundreds of thousands of lives into a meat grinder to impose NATO or Russian control over those people's oil fields is a vile crime against humanity and anyone who defends either side in this sick war is war mongering trash. Mr. Tucille has exposed himself to be just that sort of war mongering trash and he should be immediately fired from Reason and his work should never appear in your magazine again if you want to maintain your supposed reputation as an anti war publication. Or you can keep on this course and become full blown war machine propaganda. I used to recommend Reason to everyone I knew as a trusted source of dissent, now look at you. What a disgrace.
Well said
Gosh. The anarco-balkanizers are really worked up over Reason straying from the successful game plan of Comancheria. Commanche no-borders pulverized Anarchy worked really well for William Tecumseh Sherman. Here's hoping Tuccille and Reason don't cry ALL the way to the bank. (https://bit.ly/3PwPTDt)
This sockpuppet no doubt exists, isn't lying, isn't a MAGA plant, and has published books and articles exposing the wickedness of non-Kleptocracy libertarians the likes of Tuccille, and the futility of Second Amendment SDI defenses Ukraine failed to install. Somewhere.
Zelinsky is teh globalist's and neocons Trotsky. With Nuland, Kaganovich and the rest who have highjacked American Foreign policy since the end of the cold war is has been one disaster after another...this is no different. Gorbachev ended the Warsaw Pact yet NATO continued? Why? We won the cold war, time to come home yet we didn't..instead it became all about the middle east and supposed global islamic radicalism..after we killed 500K innocent folks there it now moved to Russia. Democracy unless we don't get what we want..than its a color revolution isn't it?
Putin is a thug..eastern european countries have been fighting each other for centuries..not our business. Globalists are the real threat to American liberty.
As much as the Empires are bad crowd hate to admit it, Eastern Europe actually was far more peaceful when the big empires controlled it. First the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantine and later the Prussian/German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ottomanand Russian Empire, they were also making fairly large headway in modernizing until WW1 came along, destroyed those empires and left a power vacuum in Eastern Europe. The Post War agreements also created artificial borders that didn't take into account historical, ethnic or cultural considerations and created several countries with massive internal strife. Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are the most infamous of these new 'states'. Is it any surprise neither lasted a 100 years before splitting up? Ukraine was vastly grown as a result of post WW1 treaties, absorbing territories from several other pre-war powers. Regions that weren't culturally Ukrainian anymore (also Ukraine was a fairly young country even before that). The Soviets further fucked up those regions, especially post WW2, with forced emigration and other programs aimed at destroying the native cultures and replacing them with a new Soviet Man. Poland was a landlocked country for almost it's entire history. The only reason they have a coast line now is because the Soviets and to a lesser extent the Western Allies, degermanified what had been part of Prussia since the fifteenth century. The Latvians, Estonians (especially the Estonians) see themselves more as Scandinavian countries than slavic (especially Estonia since they aren't ethnically Slavic for the most part). Lithuania either harkens back to its old duchy roots or claim a German/Prussian culture. Crimea was part of the Ottoman Empire until taken by force by the Russians, and was settled almost exclusively by Russians after the 18th Century (the native Tartars were also largely relocated against their will). Hungary had been in union with the Austrian crown since the middle ages. Bohemia, which makes up a large portion of modern Czech Republic, was part of the Holy Roman Empire and was fairly evenly split between Slavs and Germans. Romania and Serbia had been part of the Byzantine and then Ottoman Empire until the 19th Century (BTW, Romanian wasn't even the most spoken tongue until the latter 19th century in Romania). Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia ditto (Byzantine then Ottoman). Albania and Montenegro also were partially controlled by the Republic of Venice and Genoa. When people look at the map of Eastern Europe they need to consider that almost none of the current countries, and there respective borders, are 'old' countries, most all of them are younger than the US, Canada and Mexico, the so called New World. They're still sorting themselves out from the from the aftermath of the Napoleonic and two world wars. Not to mention the several wars between Russia and the Ottomans.
Germany, Italy, Greece are also younger than the US. Kinda crazy to think about just how recently most of Europe was created.
Would the US allow Mexico to join a China lead mutual defense pact? There you go...
Depends, is Biden president?
https://twitter.com/talkrealopinion/status/1669119079678988289?t=yhgao1EY2pLdPGYMGApgzw&s=19
It's already strange that Biden administration is blaming Ukraine for Nord Stream bombing what is even more stranger that commander Zaluzhnyi is directly accused of being in charge of the operation.
Army commander in charge of a very specific underwater sabotage act.
Not sure.
Right now Zaluzhnyi is the only person in Ukraine that could take power from Zelensky, he's supported by the military and nationalists. A little strange that Biden admin is accusing him like that via leaks to MSM.
Making sure Zelensky stays in power?
https://twitter.com/WilliamThibeau/status/1668979208016494592?t=y5Knu-f96EM6bn1tFiOwQg&s=19
The @DeptofDefense "pride" event last week gets more bizarre with scrutiny.
Thread:
1. Here, LTG Burt openly admits she lets supposed concerns over "anti-LGBTQ+ laws in a state" about "healthcare" dictate personnel choices, even if it means choosing a less-qualified officer.
[Video]
2. Consider the range of euphemisms. As @MaryMargOlohan noted, this rhetoric is from the playbook of radical gender ideology. For the @SpaceForceDoD, to prevent chemical and physical castration of children is to deny a child "critical healthcare."
3. This has to be a Hatch Act violation. At a @DeptofDefense event, a uniformed officer opines on laws passed by duly-elected state legislatures. Not that I expect law enforcement action...
4. We're in a dark place when Generals start weighing in on state laws to protect children. What are the implications of "national security concerns"? What does LTG Burt want @SpaceForceDoD to do about this?
5. The service-wide recruiting crisis reveals a fundamental distrust between civilians and our military. If the @DeptofDefense aligns themselves with a progressive social agenda, we will cross a chasm into legitimate social breakdown.
This speech at this official @DeptofDefense event reveals it might be too late.
https://twitter.com/KeenanPeachy/status/1669162420672299009?t=3IxuZ3_6AGzu8GotiLQa6Q&s=19
This is the brave mother of Yaeli Martinez, who was kidnapped from her by woke school counselors, sent to foster care, and medicalized. Her mother was banned from visiting her for several years, until Yaeli stepped in front of a train to kill herself at age 19.
Yaeli's mother to other California parents caught in this spider web of evil: "Tell them to run!"
[Link]
Translate to Russian: So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell
Yeah, Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
Well I'll be the first to go --Phil Ochs
In the last few years, so many of yesterday’s “misinformation” and “conspiracy theories” are today’s facts.
Bloody hell, I wish there were good sources of investigative journalism about what’s going on over there.
About the only thing I believe about the Ukraine is believing the US should stay the fuck out of it. Despite the moneyed interest of the Biden family and the MIC.
Even broken Nazi clocks...
Considering you nor anyone else has ever refuted anything that I’ve said, you should be used to it by now.
“Despite the moneyed interest of the Biden family and the MIC.”
Then why bother getting Biden elected in the first place? And the massive propaganda campaign to convince Americans of his goodness?
Wrong kind of democracy, apparently. The borders set up by the USSR are sacred and must be preserved forever, regardless of what the people living there think.
Strange, since Russia's justification for this war is based on some belief that the Kieven Rus state is the natural property of Russia, despite the fact that the Muscovy State that Imperisl Russia derived from was not a successor state to Kieven Rus. Somehow that is territorial claim that must be honored, and kill for.
I think he would probably have defended Johnson's support for South Vietnam after Diem's coup by saying it's irrelevant because Minh was worse. It's the same mindset that forgiving Stalin for the Winter War and his atrocities during the 1939 Polish invasion after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. Just like the fucking statist FDR did when he expanded Lend Lease to the Soviets. Personally, taking out Hitler was important after December 8th 1941 (Germany declared war on us first, even though for all intents and purposes we had been already fighting a naval campaign with Germany from April of 1941), but Truman was right in considering letting them beat the shit out of each other and then taking out the winner if we truly were fighting for liberty. Stalin was responsible for more civilian deaths than Hitler, and had invaded multiple of his neighbors also, including Poland (along with Germany), Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. It's really to bad that we weren't ready to drop the bomb before Stalin declared war on Japan, as the history of East Asia would have been completely different if we hadn't had to include the USSR in the peace negotiations with Japan (for a starter it's questionable if Korea and Vietnam would have been split into separate spheres of influence). Once again reinforcing my thesis above that supporting one tyrant against another never fucking works in the long run.
Maybe Russia just wants a little “Manifest destiny” of its own.
I don't understand how you don't get this. It's a very simple concept! Johnson wasn't defending Diem, he was fighting Communism. The domino theory, no matter how wrong it was, was the excuse our American exceptionalists used to justify fighting in Viet Nam. The United States is not now and never was support Zelensky whether his regime is "not as bad" as Putin's or whatever. We are supporting Ukraine in their war against aggression and military invasion by Russia for strategic and geopolitical reasons. Whether it's a good idea or not; whether it will be successful or not; whether Putin is too far gone in his dreams of glory to get the message or not; THAT is the excuse American exceptionalists are using now to "make the world safe for Democracy" - although I may disagree with the false principles being used as excuses, I simply want to see the Ukrainian people prevail against Putin. Try using your brain instead of slogans.
And for the record, "we" did NOT "have to include the USSR in peace negotiations." That was a rapidly deteriorating FDR mental status that caused that. What the US should have done at the end of World War II was INSIST forcefully that the Russians pull back out of the territory they reclaimed from the Nazis immediately. They were in no position militarily at that point to prevent us from forcing the issue, but the new President thought Americans were weary of war and were perfectly okay with Russia keeping eastern Europe.
Why can’t you be a fun kind of conspiracy theorist like a flat earther?
If they didn’t see it on TV it didn’t happen.
The kind you can refute?
Hahaha, I’m having fun.
The real difference is saying that millions of people weren’t murdered is pretty goddamn gross.
Keep on laughing about it though.
Gee. So the 55,000 Americans KIA and MIA was worth supporting Diem to keep Minh at Bay. Thank you for showing you're colors, another fucking chicken hawk. BTW when and where did you serve? How many of your kids are combat arms?
Does the irony burn at all?
Might want to recheck your history. Soviets didn't declare war on Japan until August 1945, FDR died in April 1945. Fuck you don't even get that right and you want to lecture me. Also, if you read Truman's biography by David McCullough he specifically addresses this, and one of the reasons Truman agreed to bomb Japan was to end the war before the Soviets declared war on Japan just to keep them out of the negotiations, he made the decision at Potsdam. Fuck, you're ill informed.
The Yalta conference didn't apply to Soviets in East Asia until they declared war against Japan, and Truman never trusted Stalin and also saw at Potsdam that Stalin wasn't honoring his side of the Yalta conference in Eastern Europe so, after he was informed that the test explosion was a success he pushed to field the bomb before August because that was when Stalin told him he was going to declare war. Unfortunately, they couldn't get it fielded in time. Truman specifically wanted it dropped earlier so he'd have an excuse to cut Stalin out of any occupation of East Asia after Japan's surrender.
I’ve refuted that lie with correctly applied logic and science.
Exposing a lie with truth isn’t “gross”, unless you’re the liar.
I’m laughing at you.
You've posted deranged shit that a cursory perusal of readily-available facts completely and utterly refutes, Nazi, and you've also had it shoved up your asshole just as often as you've posted it. But you're a pigeon chess grandmaster: after you lose, you knock the pieces of the board, shit on it, and strut around like you won.
If you could prove that I’ve ever been refuted you would, with a simple link to the thread and a description of what was refuted.
So do it fuckwit.
Or demonstrate that you can’t, nobody ever has and you’re just another lying waste of skin.
You won’t, can’t, so I’ll rub in your face the fact that you can’t and nobody ever has ever refuted what I’ve said.
The following points refute key elements of the holocaust with logic and science. This is because all stories creating the holocaust narrative defy logic and science.
There has been no objective forensic analysis at any supposed site. That means that there is no physical evidence. Any activity that demonstrates and shares evidence to refute the holocaust is a crime in every nation where it allegedly occurred.
The fact that all evidence that refutes the holocaust is criminal in every nation where it allegedly occurred is relevant if you are accepting any evidence at all from those nations.
Refusing to consider evidence is the definition of bias and any conclusion that bias is irrelevant only demonstrates bigotry and a disregard for justice.
Without objective forensic evidence all we have is a story made up of piecemeal recollections of events from paid and coerced fuckwitnesses.
I refute those stories with correctly applied logic and science.
The crucial event of the story is the cyanide gassing of millions of Jews. That couldn’t have happened as claimed. The story is bullshit.
Jews have published books illustrated with pictures of themselves shirtless dragging piles of gassed bodies from the chambers to cremation ovens.
But cyanide is absorbed through the skin and NOBODY could have survived a single day of such activity much less collecting reparations into their old age reminiscing about it years later.
Anyone who ever saw the naked body of somebody who died from cyanide asphyxiation would NEVER forget the red skin colour. The bodies necessary reaction to being unable to process oxygen.
Not a single surviving fuckwitness ever mentioned it.
Also, no dark cherry red skin discolouration was visible in any supposed photographs of bodies of so-called victims of the holocaust.
The fact is that you can’t explain it and your bigotry prevents you from recognizing the ONLY logical conclusion.
Not a single fuckwitness testimony or alleged photograph of bodies was of anyone who died from cyanide exposure.
So much for the “evidence” of a holocaust.
And so it goes with every bullshit story told by paid and coerced lying fuckwitnesses. The facts prove otherwise.
Have you ever heard of the Bletchley park decrypts of the famous German enigma machines? It was credited for turning the tide of the war as allies knew what military actions the Germans were planning.
Only released in the 1980s those translated messages included prison camp information, deaths, transfers and requests for medicines to treat illnesses. The numbers of dead don’t support the holocaust narrative of which there was also no mention of.
Here are some actual enigma decrypts from Bletchley park in 1942 when deaths were at their highest.
Covering the period 3rd Aug. 1942 – 25th Sept. 1942
A further examination is made of Concentration Camp figures; deaths from typhus have reached a very high figure in AUSCHWITZ.
A suspected case of typhus is reported from AUSCHWITZ (223b/42). It is probable that on the 6th August Nachschubkdtr. Russland Mitte requests typhus vaccine for 50 men and spottenfever serum for 20
For the first time returns are given for deaths of prisoners (223b/14,24,43,50): the figures for August are: NIEDERHAGEN 21, AUSCHWITZ 6829 (or 6889) men, 1525 women;.
Firstly the number of dead for the month are nowhere near what is necessary to support the holocaust narrative.
Secondly, notable is the concern over typhus deaths and the requests for medical supplies to treat.
Thirdly, are you willing and eager to perform the feeble mental gymnastics required to believe, as the story goes, that Germans were communicating in code about prison camps while talking plainly about their military actions with their top secret enigma machines?
That would require you to really believe that Germany INTENTIONALLY lost the war to cover up the holocaust while ostensibly leaving lying fuckwitnesses alive in the prison camps as the Germans retreated.
Let’s not forget another old timey favourite.The story of Babi Yar is a popular lesson in Jewish schools described as the single largest event of the holocaust.
The lesson is that between 30,000 and 100,000 Jews were taken to a ravine in Ukraine where they were killed.
The story is told by one Jewish survivor, Dina Pronicheva, an actress who testified that she was forced to strip naked and marched to the edge of the ravine. When the firing squad shot, she jumped into the ravine and played dead. After being covered by thousands of bodies and tons of earth she dug herself out, unscathed, when the coast was clear and escaped to tell the story.
She is apparently the only person in history to successfully perform a matrix bullet dodge at a firing squad. The soldier aiming point blank at her never noticed her escape. Never walked a few steps to the edge of the ravine to finish her off.
They were stripped naked to leave no evidence. Naked she had no tools to dig herself out from under 30,000 bodies and tons of dirt.
Only after the deed was done, the nazis realized that so many bullet ridden bodies were evidence. Oops, rookie move. So they brought more Jews and millions of cubic feet of firewood to dig them up, cremate them on gravestones and scatter their ashes in surrounding fields.
There has been no forensic investigation at the site. None of the bullets allegedly burned with the bodies have been recovered. Not one shred of physical evidence of this has ever been found.
There are military aerial photographs of the area at the time but they don’t show any evidence of the narrative, no people, no equipment, no firewood, no moved earth, no tracks of any kind.
Simply stating these facts is a crime in Ukraine where the Babi Yar narrative is taught in school.
The numbers of dead from German enigma decrypts does align with Red Cross numbers.
The Red Cross was founded in 1863 with the purpose of protecting the interests of victims of conflicts.
The Red Cross regularly visited all prison camps. It was their job to report the cause of all deaths. They recorded a grand total of 271,000 among all camps for the entire war. It is a matter of record.
The holocaust fairytale requires us to believe that they were so unaware of what might be happening that they completely missed 95% of the victims in prison camps.
AND that they had not so much as an inkling that a holocaust was going on right under their noses even though allied media propaganda was reporting it. Because there is no evidence of any Red Cross document suggesting they did.
Are you performing those feeble mental gymnastics? How gullible are you?
Zyklon B is an off the shelf insecticide used among other places in Prison camps to delouse clothing and bedding to save lives by preventing deadly typhus. The system used for years before and during the war throughout Europe employed heating to release cyanide gas, fans to circulate the gas and more to exhaust the chambers to make the de loused articles safe to handle.
Pictures of this equipment and the small de lousing buildings with clothing racks still exist in Prison camps. But no evidence of any gas delivery system has ever been found in the shower houses where the bullshit holocaust allegedly occurred. In fact, the story has changed to that they just threw the heat activated pellets onto the cold drainless floors in rooms full of people.
Such an inefficient method would have taken too long to kill the required number of Jews. The pellets couldn’t be spread evenly in rooms full of people. The cold drainless floors would have delayed the release of cyanide from the pellets that people would have swept away from themselves. Any dead would have released all their bodily fluids and their bodies covering the pellets. Vomit would have been added to the floor prior to entering such a room.
According to the testimony of the so called survivor, the timing entering the chambers immediately, the details shirtless survivor, piles of bodies with unvented cyanide gas pockets in every space, death from repeated exposure as per testimony would have been necessary, not just possible.
According to Martin Gilbert in his book, Holocaust Journey, the gas chambers at Treblinka utilized carbon monoxide from diesel engines. At the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi war criminals, the American government charged that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka in “steam chambers,” not gas chambers.
Gasoline engine exhaust contains about ten times the carbon monoxide than diesel. Diesel exhaust is relatively safe. Even if the Diesel engines were running at their maximum of 500 ppm, death would take several hours. Far too long to support the narrative.
If Germans had used gasoline engines, death would have been in a few minutes. But in the holocaust narrative for treblinka diesel was used even though Germany had plenty of gasoline for their tanks. Nuremberg still recorded that they were “steam chambers”.
Somebody is lying. They weren’t both steam chambers and diesel gas chambers.Which stupid lie is more believable? Does it even matter to you?
The story of gassing Jews began as British propaganda to turn popular opinion against Germany. It was inspired to draw attention away from Jewish Bolshevik war crimes in Russia because that would work against allied propaganda. It also served global Jewish interests to create undeserved sympathy for Jews who had publicly organized boycotts of Germany to drive Germany to war.
There is a documented letter from the head of British propaganda to the head of the war office recommending that they cease the “gassing Jews“ propaganda because there was no evidence for it and if found out would work against their propaganda efforts.
Head of British Psychological Warfare Executive (Propaganda), Victor Cavendish-Bentick in a handwritten note, wrote on Aug 27th, 1943,
“We have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don’t we run the risk eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring the whole of our psychological warfare down with it? So isn’t it rather time now to let it drift off by itself and concentrate on other lines that we are running.”
Public Record Office Document F0371/34551 revealed by Stephen Mitford Goodson, ‘Inside the South African Reserve Bank’.
Jews had been publicly claiming a holocaust of 6 million Jews in various nations no less than 166 times between 1900 and 1945. Only to coerce sympathy to raise money. Like the wastes of skin who fake cancer on go fund me pages.
What’s the probability after being proven lying about 6 million Jewish deaths by holocaust over 166 times that the 167th claim is true? Better to buy a lottery ticket. Though the bullshiit narrative has been like a lottery bonanza for Jews.
The only thing the bullshit holocaust narrative has in common with WW2 is that they were both the creation of Jews.
These Jewish leaders are admitting it. Are they lying?
They are properly referenced quotes from Jewish leaders demonstrating that they had intended to create and force Germany into WW2.
That kind of evil is absolutely relevant when considering the character required to lie to the world about a holocaust for the 167 th time.
“We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany”. David A Brown, national chairman, united Jewish campaign, 1934.
“The Israeli people around the world declare economic and financial war against Germany …holy war against Hitlers people”
Chaim Weismann, the Zionist leader, 8 September 1939, Jewish chronicle.
The Toronto evening telegram of 26 February 1940 quoted rabbi Maurice l. Perlzweig of the world Jewish Congress as telling a Canadian audience that” The world Jewish Congress has been at war with Germany for seven years”.
The boundaries of pre 2014 Ukraine were created by Nikita Kruschev, carved out of Russia.
This is a shit, extremely biased source, with some glaring omissions, but still reveals Crimea's inclusion within Ukraine 1992-2013 was reluctant at best.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Autonomous_Republic_of_Crimea
"After a referendum on 20 January 1991, Crimea regained its status as an Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.[2] As this was months before August's Declaration of Independence of Ukraine Crimea was at the time part of the Ukrainian SSR which was one of the constituent republics of the Soviet Union.[2][3]
In 26 February 1992, the Crimean parliament changed the name of the region from the Crimean ASSR into the Republic of Crimea[4] and the Ukrainian government with the objective of allowing them more self-governance.[2] On 5 May 1992, parliament declared Crimea independent,[2] which was yet to be approved by a referendum to be held 2 August 1992.[5] On 6 May 1992, the same parliament inserted a new sentence into this constitution stating that Crimea was part of Ukraine.[5] The Ukrainian parliament convened on May 15, annulled the Crimean declaration of independence and gave the Crimean parliament one week to cancel the referendum.[5] In June 1992, the parties reached a compromise, Crimea would be designated the status of "Autonomous Republic" and granted special economic status, contingent on Crimea's amendment of its constitution including proclaiming the peninsula an autonomous integral part of Ukraine.[2] The revised Constitution of Crimea was adopted on September 25, 1992.
In May 1994, the Crimean parliament voted to restore the May 1992 Constitution.[2] In September 1994, President of Crimea Yuriy Meshkov and parliament decided to write a new constitution.[2] On 17 March 1995, the Verkhovna Rada abolished the May 1992 Constitution and the post of President of Crimea.[2] From June until September 1995, Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma governed Crimea under a direct presidential administration decree.[2] In October 1995, the Crimean parliament adopted a new Constitution which was not recognized by the Ukrainian national authorities until April 1996 when significant amendments were suggested.[2] A fifth draft law of the October 1995 constitution was ratified on 21 October 1998 at the second session of the Crimean Verkhovna Rada (parliament).[2][6] The Verkhovna Rada confirmed this constitution on 23 December 1998.[6] (Article 135 of the Ukrainian Constitution provides that the Crimean Constitution must be approved by the Ukrainian parliament.)[7] It came into effect on 12 January 1999.[2]
During the Crimean Crisis, the Crimean authority repealed the 1998 Crimean Constitution after the 2014 Crimean status referendum."
The 2014 coup, bringing an openly hostile faction to power in Kiev, was a deal-breaker. Crimea is not Ukraine, and never really has been.
As for the Donbas, both republics (LPR and DPR) asked to be annexed by Russia shortly after declaring independence from Ukraine.
Russia denied that request for 8 years, through multiple attempts to mediate a diplomatic resolution that Ukraine was never faithful to, until finally agreeing to annex Luhank and Donetsk in the face of increased shelling and a massive invasion planned by Ukraine.
Nearly a decade of refusing requests to annex those regions suggests Russia's motivation is comparable to manifest destiny.
Ukraine would have to ethnically cleanse any portion of the Donbas they hypothetically retake.
Zelensky was was a comedian, but what makes Misek a bigger comedian is his claim that "the Jew Zelensky" is a puppet when Misek would normally make "the Jew" a puppet-master.
Misek can't even keep his scapegoats straight. If only all Nazis were like that.
That’s your delusion not mine.
I’ve demonstrated that many Jews are as stupid as you are.
Don't be dragging your children into a war zone, Angie!