Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
Are the plausible alternatives to continental governance any better?

Small States Are Best, and the E.U. Is Huge
Affirmative: Daniel Hannan

Small is beautiful. That, in a nutshell, is the case against the European Union. If you want to make the same point in more grandiose language, you can quote Aristotle: "To the size of a state there is a limit, as there is to plants, animals and instruments, none of which can retain their natural facility when too large."
Here's one practical test of his thesis. Which states or territories have the highest gross domestic product (GDP) per head? Depending on whose measure we use, the top five are Qatar, Macao, Luxembourg, Singapore, and Brunei (according to Worldometer); Monaco, Liechtenstein, the Isle of Man, Bermuda, and the Cayman Islands (according to the International Monetary Fund); or the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, the Faroe Islands, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Guam (according to the United Nations). Notice what they all have in common?
Europhiles might object that the E.U. is not a state, and that the very presence of Luxembourg in one of those tables suggests that it can't be doing too badly. But look at the direction of travel. At first, the European Economic Community (EEC)—the clue was in the name—could reasonably be described as an international association, focused on eliminating trade barriers among its members. True, it did so at the expense of trade with nonmembers. Unlike NAFTA or the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), the EEC was not a free trade area but a customs union, controlling all commerce on behalf of its members and artificially redirecting trade away from the rest of the world. Still, it was a club of nations rather than a superstate.
That changed when the Maastricht Treaty came into force in 1993. Suddenly, Brussels had a hand in almost every field of government activity: foreign policy, criminal justice, the environment, culture, immigration, defense. It was now that, in recognition of its vastly expanded ambitions, it stopped being the EEC and became the European Union.
A big polity can prosper, but only if it behaves like a confederation of statelets. The supreme exemplar is the U.S., the only large nation that gets anywhere near the top of those GDP rankings (coming in, respectively, at 7, 7, and 10 in the three lists cited above). American states and counties have powers that exceed those of any local authorities in Europe—except in Switzerland, which, largely because it wants to retain its devolved political system, has declined to join the European Union. Delaware, unlike Denmark, can set its own sales taxes. Pennsylvania, unlike Poland, can decide whether to allow capital punishment.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not wild about the direction the U.S. has been taking either. Power is shifting from the states to Washington, D.C., from the legislature to the executive, and, indeed, from the citizen to the government. But the U.S. is starting from a much better place. It was designed according to Jeffersonian principles. Power was dispersed, decentralized, and democratized.
The E.U., by contrast, was designed to weld nations into a supranational bloc. The first article of its founding charter, the Treaty of Rome, commits its members to an "ever-closer union." The European Court of Justice has repeatedly cited that clause to justify power grabs that go beyond anything foreseen by the treaties.
The U.S. Constitution is an imperfect document, but, as P.J. O'Rourke said, it's better than what you've got now. The E.U. treaties, by contrast, don't even pretend to restrict state power. Where the Declaration of Independence promises life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, its European equivalent, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, entitles people to "strike action," "affordable housing," and "free healthcare."
True, nation-states can be as intrusive and dirigiste as the European Union. But the aggregate picture is clear. The cheapest and most accountable administrations are those closest to the people. Local government is (not always, but on average) more efficient than national government, national government more efficient than supranational government.
In theory, one could imagine an E.U. that did not concern itself with behind-border issues—an E.U., in short, more like EFTA or NAFTA. But that is not what we have. The real E.U. has policies on every aspect of life, from permissible noise levels to the status of disabled people, from the rights of asylum seekers to space exploration. No wonder most British libertarians voted to leave it.
The E.U. Is Better Than the Realistic Alternatives
Negative: Dalibor Rohac
Many valid criticisms can be addressed at the European Union. The Brussels machinery is bureaucratic and largely insulated from accountability. When it comes to new markets and new technologies, European institutions regulate first and ask questions later. The E.U. controls a sizable budget, part of it wasteful—including generous agricultural subsidies and transfer programs that have entrenched aspiring autocrats in countries such as Hungary.
Yet the E.U.'s existence is infinitely preferable to its absence. It is a prime example of the "nirvana fallacy" to compare the E.U. and its flaws to a libertarian ideal of free trade and unregulated markets. The relevant comparison is between the E.U. and the politically plausible alternatives.
Those alternatives almost certainly involve protectionism, heavy-handed industrial policy and planning, or state aid to politically connected companies—and they could involve ethnic conflict and war. If it weren't for the pressure of the European Commission in the late 1980s, it is fanciful to think that Italy or France would have just given up state ownership of utilities, banks, or their industrial giants.
Conversely, the United Kingdom has not become a free market paradise after leaving the European Union. Quite the opposite. The U.K. economy, already constrained by self-imposed "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) regulations, is being burdened by new barriers to cross-border commerce with continental Europe—hence the dismal growth record three years into leaving the bloc.
Again, the E.U.'s "single market" is far from perfect. It is effectively nonexistent in the area of services, for example. And in areas where it does work, it often goes hand in hand with harmonized European rules rather than with simple mutual recognition of national standards.
Yet the single market is a singular achievement. It is one thing to prescribe the free movement of goods, capital, and people within the continental United States under the auspices of a powerful federal government. It is quite another to arrive at such an outcome through the largely voluntary efforts of E.U. member states.
Could we imagine an alternative that would be superior, from a libertarian standpoint? Sure: Eliminate tariffs and embrace mutual recognition of national rules. But that's never going to happen. The experience with existing mutual recognition arrangements from around the world shows that under wide differences between regulatory regimes, mutual recognition is politically unsustainable.
In other words, the layer of E.U. rules is a price to pay for the absence of nontariff barriers. This is arguably not a very hefty price to pay, given that some E.U. countries (the Nordics, Baltics, the Netherlands) are among the most competitive economies around the world, and given that nonmembers have voluntarily embraced those rules (Norway) or are very keen to do so (Ukraine).
It is misleading to compare the E.U.'s single market with 19th century Europe, and not just because 19th century Europe did not have a modern regulatory state. The "first age of globalization" was driven more by improvements in transportation than by wise trade policy. If anything, the free trade system started gradually eroding in the 1870s before completely collapsing in World War I.
Contrary to conservative-nationalist folklore, the E.U. is not a nefarious top-down plot to subvert national sovereignty and self-governance. It is an imperfect compromise resulting from decadeslong efforts by democratically elected leaders, and it enjoys broad, consistent popular support. (Two-thirds of Europeans back it, according to a recent Eurobarometer poll.)
One can understand why Americans or Brits might look with suspicion at the E.U.'s convoluted decision making processes. Yet the E.U.'s odd architecture reflects something distinctly European—the uneasy tension between common cultural references and the sheer diversity of the continent. It is not a coincidence that for almost two millennia Europe saw a succession of weird, multilayered, quasi-federal structures of governance, from the Holy Roman Empire through leagues of city states to multinational "republics" such as the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
England aside, the "sovereign" nation-state is a late–19th century addition to Europe's political realities. And needless to say, the founding generation of the modern libertarian movement had a keen understanding of the fact that this period was not exactly friendly to freedom, markets, and peace.
Has the E.U. lived up fully to the ideals of Hayekian international federalism? Of course not. But it is blindingly obvious that it has performed better than the relevant alternatives.
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- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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No mention of a cost/benefit analysis? Typical pro-government nonsense if you're going to declare a government program a success without weighing the costs. An unelected and unaccountable bureaucratic dictatorship that grows day-by-day, inserting its tentacles into every orifice of the body political is a steep cost.
And I find it interesting that the pro case is strictly around the economy. The worst parts of the EU are the non-economic issues.
Reason doesn’t want to talk about that.
Well the benefit outweighing that cost is that the "unaccountable bureaucratic dictatorship" is based in Brussels rather than Moscow.
This is a good topic and a worthy addition to the series from that point of view.
But these essays are a bit short on details about what is right and what is wrong with the EU. We get a brief history of how, and a small taste of small state economic possibilities, but no real meat on the nut of the problem.
Sometimes less is more. But this is a case where I think more might be more.
Bzzzzzt! Thanks for playing, but you flunked. F for effort, since you put none into researching something which most Europeans know. Every EU nation controls its own VAT rates, and for what it's worth, it's not just a single rate, but something like 100 different rates, covering food, farm and school supplies, fuel, etc.
There are two downsides to VAT prices including the tax instead of adding it at the cash register, from my American perspective. One is that people forget how heavy that tax is (15-25% more or less). Second, online businesses make a lot less money in the high tax countries because the VAT takes more off the top. A €10 pre-VAT product costs €11.5 to €12.5 post-VAT; what price does an online seller list?
Standard rate
Each EU country has a standard rate which applies to the supply of most goods and services. This cannot be less than 15%.
EU sets the minimum.
the E.U. is not a nefarious top-down plot to subvert national sovereignty and self-governance.
Correct, it is fait accompli, no plot needed.
It's a nefarious top down plot to install an unelected and unaccountable central bureaucracy, to subvert democracy, while calling it a defense of justice against "populism," which is just another word for "what the people really want."
From the EU website:
There are 4 main decision-making institutions which lead the EU’s administration. These institutions collectively provide the EU with policy direction and play different roles in the law-making process:
the European Parliament (Brussels/Strasbourg/Luxembourg)
the European Council (Brussels)
the Council of the European Union (Brussels/Luxembourg)
the European Commission (Brussels/Luxembourg/Representations across the EU)
Their work is complemented by other institutions and bodies, which include:
the Court of Justice of the European Union (Luxembourg)
the European Central Bank (Frankfurt)
the European Court of Auditors (Luxembourg)
The Treaty on European Union makes it clear that:
citizens are directly represented at EU level in the European Parliament
EU countries are represented in a twofold manner:
in the European Council by their heads of state or government
in the Council of the EU by their governments (“themselves democratically accountable either to their national Parliaments, or to their citizens”)
The Lisbon Treaty (2007) introduced several notable amendments – including, for example, creating a permanent, full-time President for the European Council, and strengthening the European Parliament’s role and powers.
Well, at least you get to vote for one guy in Parliament....
Worked out well for Nigel Farage. The 'British Trump' even before there was an American one. He tried and failed to get himself elected to the British parliament. Success came to him in 1999 when he was elected to take a seat in the European parliament.
"Farage was elected to the European Parliament in 1999 and re-elected in 2004, 2009 and 2014. The BBC spent four months filming a documentary about his European election campaign in 1999, but did not air it. Farage, then head of the UKIP's South East office, asked for a video and had friends make copies which were sold for £5 through the UKIP's magazine. Surrey Trading Standards investigated and Farage admitted the offence.[37] Farage was the leader of the 24-member UKIP contingent in the European Parliament, and co-leader of the multinational Eurosceptic group, Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy. Farage was ranked the fifth-most influential MEP by Politico in 2016, who described him as "one of the two most effective speakers in the chamber".[38] Reportedly, he would always be assigned office number 007 in the European Parliament.[39]"
"citizens are directly represented at EU level in the European Parliament"
And what does that do? Give me a single example of the Parliament pushing through legislation against the wishes of the executive (that is, the bureaucracy). Oh wait, only the executive can initiate legislation. That is, the only way the Parliament can ever vote on legislation to trim back the power of the bureaucracy is if the bureaucracy introduces such legislation.
Can you even give me an example of Parliament voting down major legislation proposed by the executive?
he E.U. is not a nefarious top-down plot to subvert national sovereignty and self-governance.
Correct, it is fait accompli, no plot needed.
Yet, funnily enough there was a kind of plot. To wit:
Thank you for sharing the paranoid American perspective. That was very helpful.
Thank you for not providing counter evidence as usual from a leftist sock.
By "American" xe means "British" by "paranoid" xe means documented and factual.
There's really nothing to say. The UK finally did join in 1973, and they managed to carve out perhaps the best "deal" of any member state--including several opt-outs (including from the single currency) and even a rebate on its payments to the bloc. Apparently, they negotiated the UK's accession pretty well.
And then BoJo threw it all away...
Commie bitchess like you really hate the truth.
They only care about revolutionary truth.
I get it. People who push back on multi-layered, socialist, one-world government are paranoid, but people who push back on reduced government are resisters. Thanks.
“Stop resisting!”
...the rapist yelled at his victim.
Britain ALWAYS wanted to join the EU in order to split up French-German cooperation. That’s been Britain’s foreign policy goal re Europe for 600 years – and maybe back to the Vikings. Make sure that the area west of Calais (invasion on southern coast of England) is not the same power as the area northeast of Calais (invasion on eastern coast).
IMO the ONLY reason the post-Maastricht EU has gone beyond the previous EEC (treaties of Paris and Rome) is because the Cold War ended and Germany reunified. We (the US) could also have decided to make the end of the Cold War mean something beyond establishing US hegemony/empire.
Even if Monnet and Adenauer had some vague plan to push Franco-German cooperation as much as they could, that is not some nefarious conspiracy as you seem to think. Just the reality that the absence of said cooperation leads to 1000+ years of Franco-German wars.
You might not have noticed it,
but a fuckton of things have changed in the last thousand years.
Not really. A fuckton of things have changed SINCE WORLD WAR 2. But a lot of that is the EU and NATO
the E.U. is not a nefarious top-down plot to subvert national sovereignty and self-governance.
I do love this comment. Since we know factually the EU does subvert national sovereignty and self-governance what exactly is the assertion? Is it a denial that losing sovereignty and self-governance is bad (not nefarious)? This seems consistent with the operative philosophies of EU bureaucrats specifically and left wingers of all types generally, but it's a strange admission and certainly one that does not prove critics wrong in any way.
Or is it a denial that since the EU evolved in stages is could not have been a top down plot? Why would this be relevant?
It seems to me this is his effort add dismissible details to draw attention away from the core issue which he never addresses.
Where are Otto Hapsburg and Richard Coudenhove now that we need them?
"Are the plausible alternatives to continental governance any better?"
Duh. A global government run by elites and guided by DEI ideals and enlightened socialism would be a literal heaven on earth.
You left out the part where wrong-thinkers and wreakers are "re-educated" in special camps or simply liquidated for convenience sake. We've never had pure communism because the elites have never had the courage to go all the way in wiping out those who disagree.
the elites have never had the courage to go all the way in wiping out those who disagree.
Mao and Stalin get A for effort, however. Biden only a C+ so far.
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People who lived under Mao or Stalin would laugh in the face of Americans whining about having to get a vaccination. It’s an insult to them to compare the situations.
Yeah, let’s judge our country by Mao or Stalin. Go kill yourself you fascist freak.
No one is saying that this is just as bad as Stalin. But we should still make sure that's not the direction we're headed.
People who lived under Mao see quite vivid Red Guard problems from the current political climate in universities.
Sure sounds like Rohac is just arguing that since freedom means sometimes your neighbor will do something you don't like, even self-defeating, like tariffs, restricting entry, or even war, that someone making the decisions for everyone is preferable.
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The UK can not yet be used as a defense *for* the EU. The UK is still in the process of entangling decades' worth of regulation. The EU is like the Mafia - easy to get their "protection" but nearly impossible to leave!
Much of that regulation--especially in financial services--was led by the UK. It is therefore highly unlikely to want to un-entangle itself from its own creation.
What are you talking about? The UK did leave. That gives the EU a "respect for sovereignty" score of 100%.
"The E.U., by contrast, was designed to weld nations into a supranational bloc."
The dream of Charlemagne, Napoleon and Hitler finally realized by Brussels bureaucrats.
Hey, as long as I don't have to live in the European Empire, I don't really care what they do to themselves.
The problem is that they’re allies on our side of the Atlantic want us to be like them. So yes, they are a problem.
Marx sister, always a problem, no matter how far away.
‘There are’….. fucking 5 minute edit timeout.
Which ones of those were democracies?
The main benefit of the EU is economic power. Larger market than the USA--and they don't even have to pay for their own defence!
Yes, they don’t have to pay much for their own defense. Thanks to your fellow travelers in our government.
Considering that protection of European democracy has been US policy for quite some time, during Administrations and Congresses of both parties, there must be quite a lot of "fellow travelers"...
Are you actually accusing Brussels of being democratic, Shrike?
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The EU Un and nato were a mistake
But not the USSR...
Globalism and the centralization of power is always a mistake. Governance should be near the people, not as far away as it can be.
I would have set up the EU in the US style, with a bicameral legislature -- a Senate with 3 votes for each country (27 x 3 = 81), and a House of Reps apportioned on population, with around 1 representative per 3 million people (250 reps, 750M population).
One central President would have way too much power, so I'd have a ruling panel of 3, with one elected from each set of 9 countries. Routine votes would need a 2 of 3 vote to pass, serious things (like war) would have to be 3 of 3.
And most important of all, have a Bill of Rights that all member states must accept in order to join. And every country should have a perpetual right to exit the EU, upon a national referendum.
That never would have worked with a dozen different countries speaking a dozen different languages and having nothing really in common other than sharing a continent and not wanting another WW, so the EU would never have got out of the starting gate with such a structure.
Even now, there is little "EU" identity to take place of the citizens' national identities, so giving up national power in such a drastic fashion will never be popular enough to happen. But, give it another 50 years...
The EU does effectively have a "bill of rights", which all member states must join and enforce: the ECHR. It's just not legally part of the EU (the UK, for example, is still part of it). And, of course, the UK left the EU, so that's already a feature.
The EU is not a paradise, but it is European.
Well the current version is a huge socialist shitpile.
Yeah, most places where you'll see EU flags flown proudly are in Eastern Europe, where everyone is trying to signal that they are European and want nothing to do with Russia.
They all speak English as a second language.
Why would that have worked less well than what they have now?
It's not that it would have worked less well; it's that it would never have happened at all if that had been the plan.
when a country joins the EU that country sacrifices its national sovereignty and ceases to be its own country. they relinquish control of their country to some moronic bureaucrats in the hauge. how anyone can think this is a good idea is beyond me.
The idea was that it would be a sort of confederacy. Every nation independent and fully sovereign over its own affairs internally. But that EU was too bureaucratic and it made rules that applied to every members' internal affairs.
It's worse than even the US Federal government in that regard.
but we all knew that would never happen. these people are leftist europeans who love tyranny and detest freedom.
Those who loved freedom left for the USA.
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@BigT Yeah, look at Scotland now. It’s a horror show.
Silly comment. The UK actually left the EU several years ago, so it obviously had retained its "sacrificed" sovereignty. Nobody tried to stop them from leaving (indeed, many EU citizens were happy to see them go).
The EU has a set of governing institutions limited by treaty and a system of citizen representation, which you obviously do not care to understand, but feel surprisingly qualified to opine upon.
Right. The UK passed a referendum to leave in 2016. Then you had years and years of referendums and agreements, and then finally a withdrawal agreement passed in early January, 2020.
Three years later, the UK is still working on putting in place all their own rules to replace the EU rules they'd been working under for so long. They've been in a "transition" period for years, after 4 years of waiting for an official agreement to recognize the referendum.
But nobody tried to stop them from leaving! They've just started regulating all trade between the UK and the EU like the UK is a hostile foreign nation.
What's your point?
The 2016 referendum had no legal significance, so leaving the EU was always going to be a political process. Which concluded, as you note, in 2020, with the UK's exit from the EU, as the people had apparently wanted.
They were all told over and over again what becoming a "third country" would mean for the UK, and yet, of course, some of them act all surprised.
The UK actually left the EU several years ago, so it obviously had retained its “sacrificed” sovereignty."
Texas can secede and regain its former sovereignty, but that doesn't mean that the US isn't a nation.
The question in that super-clever unnecessary reformulation of yours would be whether Texas was a "country", not the US.
To put it back into a context which makes sense, yes, the UK was a country when it joined the EU, was a country when it was in the EU, and is still a country after it left the EU.
It beats another world war.
No mention (on either side) that Brussels is actively looking at having its own army to enforce the rules of the EU.
A mistake indeed.
Would that mean that we could stop being their army? Because, y'know, I'm liking the sound of that. 😀
No mention of it because you made it up? Or was that Tucker...
So you’ve conceded all argument. Good. You’re an idiot, so that is the only correct move for you.
The Common Market. It worked. No one bitched about it. Then someone said "Hey, let's all be ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels!" And that's where it all went wrong.
This was known at the outset and concealed from the public. Look at my link. For the White Mike's of the thread, no need to do two hours of podcast listening, I linked it right at the relevant time. You only need to spend 45 seconds listening and the fact that this was only "ever supposed to be a basic free trade agreement" is a complete lie and misunderstanding of what EU negotiators in 1970 knew was going to happen.
The idea that anyone in 1970 could have "known" how the EU would evolve 50 years later is completely absurd. There were many competing visions, and only one reality. But nothing was inevitable or "planned" in any meaningful sense.
(In the absence of a vast, left-wing conspiracy, of course. Which likely explains your take on it, lol...)
If by 'anyone' 'knowing' you mean the very people negotiating the creation of the EU Federal Superstate and documenting their plans on what the long-term implications were, sure.
And the EU Constitution? Did the same conspirators arrange to have that initiative fail, to be replaced (in part) by the Lisbon Treaty? Wow, they're really playing 5D chess, these folks...
Interesting reasoning…
“Mr. ObviouslyNotSpam, you are charged with conspiracy to rob a bank. The DA, Mr. Reynolds, has presented tapes of you and your accomplices planning….”
“That’s bullshit, Your Honor! No one can predict the future, so there’s no such thing as planning. Lots of things could have prevented us, a hurricane, a bank failure, a heart attack. The fact that we said we were going to do it, and then we did it are totally unrelated.”
Thank you for that. It’s the considerate thing to do when linking to a video or podcast. I think maybe you forgot the link, though.
Shut up faggot.
If the EU were simply an alliance that promoted free trade and movement within the alliance I'd have no problem with it. But of course it is no such thing. It is a regulatory monstrosity that is dragging it's member states into a suicide pact through forced immigration from outside the pact and global warming lunacy.
Yeah, the “common market” idea is just a pair of words and syllables which bear no resemblance to reality.
You can HAVE a common market without the EU we have today. Post-Brexit, there’s nothing stopping Britain from enacting treaties and the like which allow the free movement of goods and services, without giving up local control over billions of other aspects of public life.
The reason I can drive a car in Canada or Mexico with a US license and vice-versa is because we have treaties which make that form of movement and trade more easy for the citizens of each nation. It didn’t require we set up a new government run out of Quebec with AU ministers telling me how I’m allowed to water my lawn.
Er, immigration into the EU is completely in the hands of each member state.
Wrong. If one border state makes the decision to not control immigration, that member state is effectively making immigration policy for the entire EU. See: Germany, 2015
GiGi is obviously under the impression that there is an EU immigration policy which is "forced upon" the member states. It is a common misunderstanding, and happily, ignorance is curable.
What's your excuse?
Remember the Metaverse? Yeah me neither.
https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/metaverse-was-pandemic-pipe-dream
“Are the plausible alternatives to continental governance any better?”
How about domination by the Communist Chinese?
> The U.K. economy, already constrained by self-imposed "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) regulations, is being burdened by new barriers to cross-border commerce with continental Europe—hence the dismal growth record three years into leaving the bloc.
Because of course NOTHING ELSE that could have possibly affected the economy has happened in the last three years.
Er, nothing else which didn't also happen to every other country in continental Europe.
You are mistaken. Sweden is doing just fine.
Giving too much power to unelected bureaucrats is dangerous for freedom. Such structures will inevitably grow and abuse their power. A good example of this in the U.S.A. is the Federal Reserve. Europe is much worst but, in the last instance, we should ask the Europeans if they are happy with their E.U. The problem is people can’t opt out of such structures. Europe is a socialist, centralized state-controlled entity but, it seems, that’s what Europeans want… for now. The laws of economics tell us such structures will end up burying the people with taxes and regulations. Europeans always have the option of voting with their feet... many are exiting.
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Er, are you aware that the Brits don't elect their country's leader. Obviously, there are other ways to do democracy than directly electing the president. The EU is not a "federal government". It is similar, but different than the US government's relationship to the US states. Probably worth learning how it works, if you insist on commenting about it...
Er, are you aware that the Brits don’t elect their country’s leader.
*facepalm*
Where to start? For starters, America doesn’t directly elect the president.
In a parliamentary system, the leader of the party with the most votes decides who is prime minister.
Of course, you probably don't consider the US a democracy, either...
Americans don't elect the president either. They elect electors who elect the president. But, as in UK parliamentary elections, people know what/who they are really voting for.
Reason siding with the Brexiteers? Interesting...
The Eu members apparently operate their own posts offices and their postage rates. I have noticed a sharp rise in postage costs from Europe in the past few years, sometimes 300% of the price of product. In essence they have set up an export tariff. In addition the SCOTUS has allowed the states to get a sales tax for anything bought anywhere. Illinois, where I live grabs a 10 % sales tax and that includes taxing postage costs. Some Free Trade.
Many valid criticisms can be addressed at the European Union. The Brussels machinery is bureaucratic and largely insulated from accountability. When it comes to new markets and new technologies, European institutions regulate first and ask questions later. The E.U. controls a sizable budget, part of it wasteful—including generous agricultural subsidies and transfer programs that have entrenched aspiring autocrats in countries such as Hungary.
I'm on the edge of my seat to know what the upside is here...
So I read the rest... let me see if I have this right:
Give up self-determination, local control, accountability, regulations (flawed as they are) from an elected official that you can actually talk to in exchange for massive, faceless bureaucracy, ham-fisted one-size-fits-all regulations, a border and immigration policy dictated by faraway states like Germany, and thus benefit from a slightly improved GDP and a tad more hip-swiveling freedom in your rights to move goods more easily across "borders".
Immigration has always been in the hands of the member states, except for "free movement" of EU citizens within the EU itself.
Needless to say, your understanding of the rest of the EU is probably equally as flawed.
Wrong.
If one state has loose immigration policies, the rest of the states become burdened. Otherwise, why would these troublesome Dutch be begging the other EU states to take action?
"If one state has loose immigration policies,"
You're thinking like a bureaucrat. That the issue is a matter of looser or tighter policies. The issue is the large number of poorer and desperate folk living within spittlng distance of your borders. Like the Syrians or Libyans, whose societies were plunged into chaos largely through western machinations.
And by western you mean Obama.
Oh, now you want to talk about refugees? That's not "immigration policy". That's a consequence of a country signing up to various conventions on the treatment of asylum-seeking migrants--and that has nothing to do with the EU.
Contrary to conservative-nationalist folklore, the E.U. is not a nefarious top-down plot to subvert national sovereignty and self-governance.
I’m going to post a link to this twice in the thread, because this statement is based on being entirely ill-informed and ignorant of the history of the EU.
And that “conservative nationalist folklore” was left-Labor “folklore” in 1970.
Learn some history, son.
We're not here to take anyone's culture away. If you like your culture. You can keep your culture.
Here's one practical test of his thesis. Which states or territories have the highest gross domestic product (GDP) per head? Depending on whose measure we use, the top five are Qatar, Macao, Luxembourg, Singapore, and Brunei (according to Worldometer); Monaco, Liechtenstein, the Isle of Man, Bermuda, and the Cayman Islands (according to the International Monetary Fund); or the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, the Faroe Islands, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Guam (according to the United Nations). Notice what they all have in common?
Hmm, popular tourist destinations, microstates that serve as low-tax, low-regulation business and banking havens, and oil and natural gas producers that rely heavily on migrant labor. What do I win?
I think the EU has achieved a hell of a lot considering the previous 2000 years of European history. Smaller and decentralized doesn’t always lead to better things like Switzerland. Sometimes it leads to the Balkans, separatist assassinations that lead to WW1, and 1990’s Yugoslavia.
From my American perspective, the failure of the EU has been its abdication of responsibility over its own defense. But – maybe its just not quite ready for German rearmament or short Frenchies pretending that they should be 100% of the officer corps. Even if it’s pretty obvious now that there’s no real difference coming in from the east between a Stalin and a Putin. Maybe attempting to deal with real issues would put the Brussels mushrooms back under the soil.
LOL
"Smaller and decentralized doesn’t always lead to better things like Switzerland. Sometimes it leads to the Balkans, separatist assassinations that lead to WW1, and 1990’s Yugoslavia."
For fuck's sake, it was literally the exact opposite. Empires like the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and hegemonic super-states like Yugoslavia led to WW2 and the Balkan conflict.
If the various ethnicities and nationalities had been left to their own devices instead of being subsumed and oppressed by empires for the last 500 years, they very well might have turned out like Switzerland.
"If the various ethnicities and nationalities had been left to their own devices instead of being subsumed and oppressed by empires for the last 500 years, "
Poland is an interesting example of the past 500 years. The Jews of Poland were oppressed by other nationalities and ethnicities - Cossacks for example. It was the Polish Crown that protected them and others as well regardless of their differences. Poland was one of the first countries of the Enlightenment and arguably Europe's most Liberal. If you know any history, you might be familiar with the important Polish contingents in the French and American revolutions.
"The Jews of Poland were oppressed by other nationalities and ethnicities... the Polish Crown that protected them and others as well regardless of their differences."
Meanwhile the Polish nobility was ruthlessly oppressing Galatian Poles and Ruthenians, to the point that Galacia, which was Europe's breadbasket, also had Europe's poorest peasantry. People still held in serfdom by Polish nobility even after America had emancipated it's slaves.
Because of the nobility's actions, poverty was so widespread that the expression "Galician misery" or "Galician poverty" became literally proverbial, and Poles often mockingly distorted the name of the province of Galicia and Lodomeria to "Golicja i Głodomeria", incorporating plays on the Polish words, respectively, for "naked" and "hungry" ("Nakedia and Hungrymeria").
Furthermore, Jewish success under Polish nobles was solely due to the fact that they were used as the nobles agents. This was because they didn't belong to any of the major religious factions; Polish Roman Catholics, Ruthenian Greek Catholic, Ruthenian Russian or Greek Orthodox, or German Lutherans.
As the public face of their aristocratic oppressors, Polish Jews slowly became the focus of hatred from the peasantry, which finally exploded in brutal reprisals in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
Your post was certainly an odd take on a very exploitive bunch.
As an addendum, even if the Polish nobility had been enlightened (and they definitely weren't), they would have been the one exception to an historically bloody rule.
I don't think the peasants of pre modern Europe were doing well anywhere. But Galacia had many different ethnic groups, maybe more than anywhere else in Europe at the time. (1700s) They got along together under a fairly benign and liberal crown.
They were serfs, literal slaves, they were the absolute poorest people in Europe living on some of the richest soil. Sure peasants in other places in Europe were poor, but the poverty of the Polish and Ruthenian serfs were considered remarkable even by the Russians.
And they didn't get along, they were treated like garbage and they rebelled against both the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the subsequent Austro-Hungarian Empire (who kept the same Polish nobility in place) in super bloody rebellions.
"They were serfs, literal slaves, "
Serfs are not slaves, literal or otherwise. Jews typically were tradespeople and artisans. As I said, they enjoyed their position thanks to the protection of the crown. The treatment of Jews in Poland was much more liberal than that of Russia.
" they were the absolute poorest people in Europe living on some of the richest soil. "
Sounds familiar. Don't we call this these days the 'resource curse?'
Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Eastern Rumelia, Wallachia, Moldavia were all de facto or de jure independent by 1878. So much so that they had two wars before WW1 – one against the Ottomans taking the remaining Balkan possessions of theirs (Thrace and Macedonia) with Albania becoming independent – and one amongst themselves.
Austria-Hungary 'subsumed' a whole bunch of different kingdoms and duckdoms. But the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary were separate sovereign countries with the Hapsburg as Head of State. And the subsumed kingdoms and duckdoms had their own Parliaments and were generally autonomous if not sovereign.
The very fact that you are describing ethnicities as the basis for viable peaceful governance is precisely why the Balkans has always been a warring shithole whenever those ethnicities gain power and try to kill off their neighbors.
Switzerland my butt.
Stop being such a fucking idiot in your desperation to shill for empire, that you can't even read what I wrote properly.
Also, we both know what "de facto" and "de jure" mean, and so your treading dangerously close to sophistry by using them.
My argument was that Empires like the Ottomans and Austrians made the Balkans into the disaster it is today. Imperialist chains being loosened occasionally still doesn't alter the facts one iota, that the various populations had very little self-determination for the last five centuries.
And what's with the attempt at a slightly-wrong description of Austro-Hungarian polity? That's got nothing to do with what either of us were saying, and I think the only reason you wrote it was to try and intimidate me with your midwit-level knowledge of the empire.
The very fact that you are describing imperialism, actual serfdom and hegemony as the basis for viable peaceful governance is precisely why the Balkans has always been a warring shithole.
Austrians, Hungarians, Ottomans did not turn the Balkans into a toilet. That is just the usual victimhood mentality of ethnic Balkans. The rationale they use to justify killing their own neighbors based on 1000 year old pseudo-grievances - NOT Ottomans or Austrians or Hungarians.
What was the Holy Roman Empire, chopped liver?
It was neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire. Don't know about whether it was chopped or liver.
Not too racist.
https://twitter.com/FrankDeScushin/status/1652722170798153728?t=sWvRgJCz0mXRmSg-MhkEsg&s=19
White people standing for the national anthem isn't dangerous, but creating multiracial countries and teaching younger, diverse generations that they should be frightened by white people showing national pride is exceptionally dangerous.
Below is "the most dangerous situation" Tik-Tokker paulinappa_0 has ever been in.
This benign situation would only feel dangerous if you've been trained to view national pride, white people, or both as a danger.
Here you can see the 415K likes & 14K replies overwhelmingly agreeing with Paulina.
Younger generations in the multiracial countries replacing traditional Western ones are being conditioned to view the existing majority white majority as an adversary.
[Pic, video]
“view the existing majority white majority as an adversary.”
They won’t be a majority for long if that’s any consolation. So long it’s been good to know you. Africa is set to be pretty much the only place on the planet set to experience population growth. Before the century is out we’ll be begging Africans to dig our ditches, wipe our aging asses and keep our crumbling infrastructure from total collapse.
We punch above our weight.
See WW2 if don’t believe me.
I am eagerly awaiting the day social justice is served, and we bow down to the meek, as was prophesied.
Just make sure you don't bow down to those unelected and unaccountable meeks. They really suck.
So why are you so eager to do that exact thing you tell us not to do, then?
Depends on how you define white. Considering most Hispanics, by the second or third generation define themselves as white, this is hardly a given. In the 1920s Eastern Europeans and Italians were not considered white by most classification systems at the time. Now, you'll find very few people who will not describe them as white. Hell, even to the point that people bitched about an pop singer who is of Italian decent calling herself latina (which ranks in the top 20 ahistorical outrages of the past decade, if Italians can't call themselves latin, no one can). And even if we don't count Hispanics, other whites are going to remain the largest plurality for at least until the end of the century. Additionally, the large number of interracial marriages and children, basically argues that classification based on race are going to be meaningless (as they already should be). If you are half black and half white are you white or black (chances are, given how much interbreeding has always occurred, generally in one direction until just recently you're probably more white than black unless you black parent came straight from Africa)?
Additionally, am I white? I have Saamish and Jewish ancestry, albeit I am majority Norwegian and German, with a strong percentage of Scots-Irish. Are the Saamish or Jews white? Neither are Caucasian in origin. How do we define what is white? I mean I've seen arguments that Jews and even East Asians should be considered white. Do we just constrain it to people of Indo-European decent? And if so, how do we treat Persians, Pakistanis, and Northern Indians? (BTW my Persian major professor would and did take it extremely personal that he wasn't considered 'white' by our university, even though by not being considered white he got extra benefits).
Also worked with a guy who's last name was Gomez who probably would have clocked you if you told him he wasn't white.
"Depends on how you define white. "
It's not how I define it that's important. We're talking about some time in the future when I'll be gone. Obviously as the whites of today shrink in terms of numbers and influence, the motivation to identify as white for remaining humans will diminish.
Asians and Hispanics will also stagnate or diminish in population. As I mentioned, it looks like Africa seems to be the only part of the world set to increase in population, at least for the next century or so.
"even East Asians should be considered white. "
Maybe honorary white. At least that was the designation the apartheid government of South Africa, one of the few countries to officially recognize Taiwan rather than the PRC, assigned to Taiwanese visitors. That's all changed of course, but there are still direct flights between Taipei and Joburg
Oh man, tiktok? Bringing out the heavy guns today huh Nardz?
The EU a mistake?
The Bretton Woods agreement, NAFTA, IMF, the World Bank and a host of other unelected unaccountable bodies more than make up for it.
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Say what you will about the history of Europe, but a right to free healthcare goes a long way towards wiping away the holocaust and the holodomor.
Idiot.
LOL
That was a good one
Not so fast. Washington et alii made a Customs Union based on the Almighty Dollar. Hitler made a Unified Europe based on Christian altruism. Similar new versions of Christian and Communist religious nationalsocialism also made Unified Europes based on looter altruism. Christian altruism, the communist manifesto income tax and national socialist nationalizing of people through the dole were all three exported to These States and the former Almighty Dollar is now a shamanic dole-doll. See the improvement?
1. There's no evidence that the U.S. was ever involved in a customs union.
2. Hitler had a socialist economic system, that had nothing to do with Christianity nor altruism.
How is it that you spread myths that are this wildly off from the facts? Knock it off with your blatant pseudohistory.
https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1652851974876852227?t=2jRc6zpfMwYQryR451GOtQ&s=19
The CIA's rationale for its director meeting with Epstein several times is pretty fascinating.
So America's spy chief had no idea who Epstein was, despite meeting with him 3 times. Pure ignorance. Living in la la land.
A truly laughable excuse.
[Link]
In a world of 1 billion plus India, one billion plus China, and an outsized influence of the US, you'd have to be an absolute fucking idiot to argue the EU is a mistake. It's the only reason the European continent is taken seriously on the world stage.
Webmaster: I have flagged the 16 comments in this thread that are spam. I found all of these using the following regular expression:
\$\d{2,}|\d{2,}[kK]
What all the spam posts have in common is they mention a dollar amount of at least two digits, and are either prefixed with a dollar sign, or postfixed with a thousands indicator ("k" or "K").
There is a low chance of a false positive using this expression, but If the source text of the post also contains a hyperlink (https*://), then I believe it would be a very reliable indication that the post is spam.
I hope Mr Webmaster take your advice to heart. The existing algo managed to flag my old account as spam despite my never promising anyone riches...
They must not pay them as much on a Sunday.
Well, it's natural, anyway.