The Fox-Dominion Lawsuit Shows That Mike Lee Is Wrong About Defamation
The 1964 Supreme Court decision New York Times Co. v. Sullivan makes it more difficult for public figures to prove defamation—but as we saw this week, not impossible.

A report from ProPublica published earlier this month claimed that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas had received free trips aboard yachts and private jets from billionaire real estate developer Harlan Crow. The fallout from that story has led to a robust debate over whether American defamation law is too protective of people who publicly say nasty things about famous people.
Thomas said in a statement that Crow is a close friend who "did not have business before the court." Progressives have nevertheless claimed that Thomas is Harlan's lackey, with Brett Edkins, managing director of policy and political affairs for progressive advocacy group Stand Up America, saying that "Justice Thomas' vote on the Supreme Court is bought and paid for by right-wing billionaire Harlan Crow."
On April 18, Sen. Mike Lee (R–Utah) characterized the criticism of Crow and Thomas as defamatory and blamed "a Supreme Court ruling from 1964" for the fact that "public figures have essentially no recourse when the media defame them."
Make no mistake: this is defamation. The media gets away with it only because Justice Thomas is a public figure, and under a Supreme Court ruling from 1964, public figures have essentially no recourse when they're defamed by the media.
— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) April 19, 2023
Lee refers to New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, a landmark First Amendment case that established legal standards for defamation. Sullivan found that to defame a public figure, a speaker must show "actual malice," meaning they possessed "knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not." Subsequent cases further expanded the definition of a public figure to include not just elected officials but anyone of "pervasive fame or notoriety" or even people or entities who become part of a public controversy.
Many conservatives have advocated either weakening or ending Sullivan. Thomas himself has long been critical of the "actual malice" standard and has frequently written that the court should "revisit" the case.
For supporters of free speech, Sullivan is a good precedent: The case stemmed from an ad in The New York Times criticizing an "unprecedented wave of terror" carried out by racist police and private citizens against Martin Luther King, Jr.
The Times lost the case based on a few minor factual inaccuracies and exaggerations in the ad. The Alabama Supreme Court upheld the verdict, but the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously overturned it. Delivering the Court's opinion, Justice William Brennan defended the principle that "debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials."
So Lee is correct that Sullivan makes it more difficult for public figures to recoup damages for defamation, but it's not impossible. Just hours before his tweets, Dominion Voting Systems settled its defamation lawsuit against Fox News for $787.5 million. The lawsuit alleged that Fox had defamed Dominion by giving uncritical airtime to conspiracy theorists who falsely accused the company and its products. As part of the settlement, Fox would reportedly not be required to issue an on-air mea culpa, but it did "acknowledge the Court's rulings finding certain claims about Dominion to be false."
Before the trial, Fox expected to be protected from liability by the Sullivan standard. But as Reason's Jacob Sullum wrote in March, "Dominion tells a plausible story, backed by internal communications, that Fox continued to host 'crazy' conspiracy theorists because it had a financial interest in doing so," and while the standards necessary to prevail at trial would be "a very tough test, Fox's lame excuses provide reason to believe that Dominion can meet it."
Lee may be upset that his political allies have to put up with intemperate speech. Still, America's legal framework is sufficient to allow public figures recourse for actual defamation. As the Cato Institute's Walter Olsen wrote, the Fox-Dominion settlement "shows that while Sullivan may be speech‐protective, it did not then and does not now eviscerate common law rights to sue for defamation."
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If it were defamatory, Thomas would be able to sue anywhere it was published, which includes the notoriously libel-friendly courts of England and Wales. He's not suing because it's true, not because it isn't harmful.
It's still defamation any way you slice it, ShrikeShrike. And how the fuck would an American SCJ sue in the UK (or anywhere) without being in conflict?
And quit sockpuppeting for fuck's sake.
It's not defamation if it's true, you drivelling idiot.
And, obviously it's only in your warped little brain where everyone who tells you you're a traitor suffering from brainworms is one person. There are about 9 billion people who can see how mad you are, not just one.
Multiple cites have claimed Thomas is corrupt. That is an opinion. It is not false nor true. The information of him recieving money is true, that he is corrupted by that is not. His friend has never had business before the court.
Nominally with Thomas being a public figure, a finding of opinion is not actionable. What we saw vs Fox is this no longer matters. They had a belief, not a knowledge, regarding Dominion.
What you dont understand is the Fox case has made opinions defamatory. So calling Thomas corrupt would fall under the new precedent based on the fact there is no evidence of corruption yet he is being called corrupt.
ROFL. What does your wordsoup have to do with what I said, which is that Thomas can't be defamed by the truth?
There's stupid, there's breathtakingly stupid, and then there's so stupid it's a wonder you remember to breathe.
ProPublicas claims are inherently false.
1) Thomas travels with a rich fand therefor he is corrupt.
Problem is that friend has never been before the USSC. What ruling was corrupted by that friendship.
2) Thomas is reporting illegal income from a business that went defunct.
Problem is the business changed from an LTD to and LLC and all funds were reported correctly, all taxes paid.
ProPublica and other downstream media reports on Thomas as being corrupt. Problem is the information they pushed is false.
The same precedent just set yesterday would make Thomas allowed to sue the media pushing those stories for defamation.
Do you need a drawing?
Thomas is right leaning therefore he is corrupt.
These are the same people bringing up Anita Hill.
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^THIS^ Defamation is hard to prove but not impossible ….IF you have the correct accuser and the right accused of defaming
Jesse... He's been accused of corruption very publicly, by an entity with the standing to defame, and deep enough pockets to pay out. If it weren't true, he'd have a slam dunk case and win huge damages, as well as clearing his name. He isn't suing for defamation.
Those of us capable of joined up thinking understand that Thomas is conceding the claims are true, hence the talk about him needing to resign. This really isn't hard. The man himself is admitting what you claim isn't true. You're just making yourself look like you don't accept established reality - as per.
I wish he would...
What the hell are you talking about? The election deniers didn't just say "We think Dominion is corrupt". They made clear and specific accusations, and then utterly failed to produce even a scintilla of evidence. These weren't "opinions", they were statements of (false) fact.
Let's review: if I say "Jesse seems like the kind of guy who would rape dogs", that's an opinion and not actionable. If I say "Jesse raped my dog last Saturday" that's a statement of fact. If I can't produce any evidence of dog-raping, then that's actionable defamation.
Very true: Dominion over US
You can’t make this stuff up. Do they laugh in our faces? Was the name Dominion chosen to prove their dominion?
https://scientificprogress.substack.com/p/dominion-over-us
No it isn't.
Now take your Xanax and go back to bed.
I think the senator missed the day they taught “law” in law school…for a tort damages are necessary. Justice Thomas is more revered than ever by RepooplicKKKunts.
"but as we saw this week, not impossible."
They didn’t prove defamation.
The judge wouldn’t allow discovery or any of the evidence essentially prohibiting Fox from defending themselves. They had zero options outside of settlement, because you don’t want to face the ruling of someone as overtly biased and crooked as that.
If this place still hired libertarians you’d be outraged.
“The judge wouldn’t allow discovery or any of the evidence essentially prohibiting Fox from defending themselves.”
Flat-out lies are really all you have left when your first set of flat-out lies have been comprehensively and publicly debunked.
Well, that, or admitting you were hoodwinking gullible conspiracy theorists for money. Fox admitted that. Trump's lawyers admitted that. Trump himself, not quite at that stage yet.
Oh, and what did I lie about, ShrikeShrike?
Are you saying that the judge allowed discovery and didn’t rule on falsity of facts?
You're like a fucking cartoon character.
I think it's pretty obvious what the lies you've been fed are, and that you believe them. But only you and your ever-shrinking group of equally gullible traitors believe them, because they are directly contrary to the established facts. Everyone else is laughing at you now, just like Fox and Trump always were.
Fact won't change what the faithful feel.
The judge literally ruled on the facts of the case last week despite nothing being proven at the time statements were made. Once the judge made that the determination everyone knew a settlement would be had.
It would be like a trump lawyer telling a jury the fact trump never collided with russia as the basis if a defamation trial against MSNBC, WAPO, NYT, or CNN.
Under those conditions all would be guilty as well.
Fox discovery did include statements from Dominion execs in 2019 and 2020 stating their code was riddled with errors. So knowledge their code was secure and correct was not a fact for when the statements were made. But the judge ruled it as such.
He knows, but he's going to call you a liar anyway, like a good little fifty-center.
"The judge literally ruled on the facts of the case last week despite nothing being proven at the time statements were made. "
You know that's pure fantasy. I know that's pure fantasy. Everyone knows that's pure fantasy. What's the point? Are the roubles really worth it?
Your statements are defamation as what I stated is true. Choose any news source, they all reported it as a win against Fox in pretrial determinations.
Civil cases have what is called motions for summary judgment. If the judge grants them based on the pleadings and perhaps depositions and/or answers to interrogatories or the like... it can substantially reduce what issues go to trial because as to those issues the Court has ruled. Fox filed motions in opposition to dominion's motion for summary judgment no doubt. Possibly also filed their own motions for summary judgment or at least that these issues were still in dispute so a trial is needed to resolve them.
I don't practice in civil law but my memory of law school makes me think that Fox would have been able to appeal the judge's decisions had they gone to trial. Some civil trials decided by summary judgment motions ALSO sometimes only have a trial as to damages which must still be proven. By settling, I think Fox is essentially admitting that they were going to not only lose at trial on whatever issues remained but also that they would have subsequently lost the appeal of the judge's granting of dominion's pre trial motions.
Jesse, Jesse, you can't lie your way out of this one. Just like you can't lie your way out of your parents' basement.
What lie? Be specific. It is odd in this entire thread you can't cite one statement of fact.
Shreek, just stop. We all know you’re an ignorant, stupid buffoon, but this is embarrassing, even for you.
Take the L and walk away Kiddie Raper.
Also, Fox News gave up the possibility of appealing the judge's pre-trial ruling by settling. It's possible that on appeal the ruling would have been reversed and the trial could have gone forward with all of the possible defenses brought into play for consideration.
Appeals require money to be in escrow and lawyer fees to continue rising. Talking 10 years of back and forth. Fox saw this as cheaper long term given the stage the judge set.
Obviously! As I said elsewhere, they settled for reasons of their own. But it would have been satisfying if this judge had been reversed on appeal for reasons of MY own.
"The judge wouldn’t allow discovery or any of the evidence essentially prohibiting Fox from defending themselves. "
I'm still mad the judge prohibited Santa, the Easter bunny and tooth fairy from testifying on Fox's behalf.
Right on spot:
Dominion over US
You can’t make this stuff up. Do they laugh in our faces? Was the name Dominion chosen to prove their dominion?
https://scientificprogress.substack.com/p/dominion-over-us
The issue in defamation is always damages—in the Dominion case the damages were pretty obvious because they lost a lot of business.
Fox repeatedly spewed bullshit, even though the people at Fox believed at the time that it was bullshit. That's pretty much the definition of "reckless disregard for the truth". So, are you sufficiently deranged that you somehow believe Fox's own records showing they were knowingly spewing bullshit are some sort of fabrication, or are you just talking out of your ass as usual?
It shows more of a 2 tier execution of the law. Political group matters more than anything.
Actually facts and reality matter. Something you and your fellow trump cult members aren't familiar with.
The lawsuit alleged that Fox had defamed Dominion by giving uncritical airtime to conspiracy theorists who falsely accused the company and its products.
What a bunch of crap. Just because the accusations weren’t backed up with evidence doesn’t mean they were false. Look at all the conspiracy theories that turned out to be true. This one is true too. Just look at the lack of evidence. That right there is proof of a coverup. That and the fact that Dominion hasn't proved it's innocence is proof of guilt.
"Just because the accusations weren’t backed up with evidence doesn’t mean they were false. "
Well the rest of humanity calls those lies. YMMV
You don't understand. The election was stolen from Trump. That means there was a conspiracy and a coverup. That alone is proof that Dominion rigged the election machines. That's why they haven't proven their innocence. It's because they're guilty. See? Open and shut case.
Relax, I'm pretty sure this is just sarcasmic living up to their user name. Admittedly, it's gotten depressingly hard to tell around here.
“Progressives have nevertheless claimed that Thomas is Harlan’s lackey”
Progressives seem to have a fixation on the black judge being someone’s lackey. Portrayals include lawn jockey for the Radical Right, Scalia clone, and now lackey for this latest bogeyman.
Do they ever call the white justices lackeys?
For the white girl from Notre Dame they dressed up in special little outfits befitting a religious cult. Handmaiden outfits to be more precise.
It shows nothing of the kind! Fox News caved in and settled for reasons of their own, not the least of which is that the judge in the case pre-judged and disallowed one of the critical defenses under Sullivan! Settling a case out of court does nothing whatever to undermine the precedent that makes it difficult to prevail on defamation!
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>>more difficult ... to prove defamation but ... not impossible.
nothing was proven.
Fox's own records show that they were spewing bullshit even though they knew it was bullshit. That's crystal-clear proof of reckless disregard for the truth.
Also Depp V Heard proves that Actual Malice is Not this Impossible Standard.
I would argue that we should apply the Actual Malice Standard to all Defamation Cases across the board. If we are going to have Exceptions to Free Speech, then it must be judged by a very high bar.
How did they arrive at $787 million? Dominion was reportedly valued at only $80 million 5 years prior when it was acquired by a private equity firm.
787.5*(2/3)=525
IRR=(525/80)^(1/5) - 1
IRR=45.7%
dominion still has multiple billion-dollar lawsuits against newsmax, oan and mike lindell
the amount of money involved here is absolutely obscene given the reported size of dominion
ringing the register on the tds bubble
Play stupid games and all.
Dominion over US
You can’t make this stuff up. Do they laugh in our faces? Was the name Dominion chosen to prove their dominion?
https://scientificprogress.substack.com/p/dominion-over-us
Apparently you've never heard of "The Old Dominion!"
Actually, the name comes from the fact that the company started in Canada, which at that time was known as the Dominion of Canada and the election law was the Dominion Voting Act.
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Seems to prove that leftist lawfare and corruption of the legal system are working just fine. Not anything generic.
It would be pusillanimous to call Reason writers who cater to the Foundation's benefactors 'lackeys' just because things go better with Koch.
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Sullivan only applies when a "public figure" sues for defamation.
Is a company no one heard of before the 2000 election a "public figure"?
I don't think so.
Fox settled because the judge had already made it clear he would be instructing the jury to convict, and in any case the possibility of getting a jury in Delaware that would objectively weigh the facts was close to zero.
Fox settled because their own records clearly showed "reckless disregard for the truth". They continued spewing bullshit even though they knew it was bullshit.
How is ""Justice Thomas' vote on the Supreme Court is bought and paid for by right-wing billionaire Harlan Crow" not opinion? The speaker makes clear what facts the opinion is based on: Crow's pampering of Thomas. Giving an opinion along with the facts it's based on is not defamation, no?
So obvious I'm not going to bother. I'm here to laugh at you pathetic marks. Obviously no-one can lead you back to reality at this point, and equally obviously no-one outside your little circle-jerk is going to be persuaded by your increasingly insane fact-free ranting.
He prefers prepubescent boys.
Blah blah blah. You’ve conceded the argument.
You lose.
We win
Case closed
Thanks for proving the point and removing any chance anyone but you true believers might be fooled by your lies.