Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
Can Americans afford to welcome the huddled masses?

'Immigrants Are Trespassers' Is a Socialist Argument
Affirmative: Bryan Caplan

Should you need government permission to take a job offer from a willing employer, rent an apartment from a willing landlord, or buy a product from a willing merchant? Most libertarians will rush to say, "No; these are basic human rights." Do all human beings have these rights? Most libertarians will rush to say, "Yes; we hold these truths to be self-evident."
If you snap these two answers together, they imply a policy of free immigration. If an American doesn't need government permission to take a job offer from an American, why should a Mexican need government permission to take such an offer? Yet today, many libertarians oppose free immigration. Plenty favor even stricter regulations than we already have.
What makes libertarians so open to immigration restrictions? Their favorite rationale comes straight from the late, great Milton Friedman. In a 1999 interview, he famously declared, "You cannot simultaneously have free immigration and a welfare state." Libertarians who support immigration restrictions have been quoting him ever since. But was he right?
Friedman plainly overstates. Suppose the welfare state gave everyone in the United States just $1 per year. Even if everyone on Earth moved here, that annual $8 billion would be only a little more than 0.1 percent of the federal budget. No matter how philosophically opposed to this handout you are, it would be foolish to insist that it "cannot" be done. The feasibility of combining free immigration with the welfare state is plainly a matter of degree. It depends on the benefits immigrants receive and the taxes they pay. It depends, in short, on math—math that almost everyone finds too boring to consider.
Fortunately, there are quants who do this boring math for a living, quants like the people who write reports for the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). While quants' answers vary, they don't vary that much. By NAS calculations, the average current immigrant to the U.S. is ultimately a net fiscal positive. When you split the sample up by education and age, high school dropouts and the elderly are net negatives but all other demographics are net positives.
How can the math be so benign? First, because immigrants' home countries often pay for most or all of their education, so U.S. taxpayers don't have to. Second, because immigrants tend to be young and therefore pay taxes for decades before they start collecting retirement benefits. Third, because much government spending (such as defense and debt service) does not depend on population. Immigrants who pay below-average taxes can still improve our fiscal outlook, just as moviegoers who buy discounted tickets can still improve a movie theater's profitability.
What if you tone down Friedman's hyperbole, and just say, "Open borders are probably fiscally feasible, but it's still in our interest to exclude all of the immigrants who are statistically expected to be a net burden"? Pragmatically, the obvious objection is: Why are you focused on excluding burdensome immigrants instead of limiting their access to benefits so they cease to be burdensome? Virtually every country already limits foreigners' access to benefits. The Gulf monarchies, with extremely strict limits, not coincidentally have the world's most open immigration policies. Why not emulate that?
The philosophical objection to excluding burdensome immigrants is even stronger. If government may justifiably forbid the entry of burdensome immigrants, may government also justifiably forbid the birth of burdensome natives? You need not be a math whiz to realize that the child of an unemployed mother and an imprisoned father is likely to be a burden on taxpayers. Should libertarians take this as a compelling reason for government to restrict the right to reproduce?
Libertarians famously oppose fairly mild infringements of personal freedom, such as mask requirements, vaccine mandates, gun bans, and motorcycle helmet laws. Why? Because libertarians hold government to high standards. When a law has bad effects, libertarians push for repeal, not another law to offset those bad effects. When governments restrict immigration, consistency requires libertarians to hold them to the same high standards—much higher, really, because denying someone the right to do business in the labor and housing markets is truly draconian.
But don't nations, like property owners, have the right to exclude outsiders? Since you can't move into my house without my permission, the argument goes, you shouldn't be allowed to move into our country without our permission. The implications here are totalitarian. The reasoning is exactly parallel to: You can't start a church in my house without my permission, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to start a church in our country without our permission. Or: You can't open a store in my house without my permission, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to open a store in our country without our permission.
The core of libertarianism is that a country belongs not to "the people" collectively, but to property owners individually. If and when the welfare state makes an immigrant a net negative, labeling the immigrant a "trespasser" may be convenient. But you have to be a socialist to really believe it.
Adding Tens of Millions of People Would Exacerbate America's Problems
Negative: Robert VerBruggen
The best way to understand the difficulty of open borders is simply to imagine it happening—not in the distant past when travel was difficult and the West was unsettled, but today.
Open borders wouldn't simply let in the several million people already waiting to come to the country legally, or drop all efforts to control the influx across the southern border. The policy would welcome anyone who wants to come, full stop, even if they would not have found it worthwhile under the current system to deal with the hassle of legal immigration or the hazards of illegal immigration.
Per Gallup's 2021 polling, about 900 million adults across the world would leave their countries if they could; about 160 million of these name the U.S. as their top destination. The desire to leave is strongest in some of the world's poorest nations, such as Sierra Leone and Honduras. A 2011 study by the pollster, based on earlier rounds of the same survey, found that 40 percent of would-be migrants to the U.S. had an elementary education or less.
Adding 160 million people would increase the U.S. population by close to half. To be sure, U.S. immigration policy is not the only obstacle these individuals face (so that estimate might be too high). And the number doesn't include kids, or folks who might come to the U.S. even though it's not their top choice (so it might also be too low). But the true number would, without a doubt, be huge.
Puerto Rico has open borders with the U.S. by virtue of being a U.S. territory. As of 2013, a third of living people born in Puerto Rico resided on the U.S. mainland. Including those born into the mainland Puerto Rican community, there has been a larger Puerto Rican population on the U.S. mainland than in Puerto Rico itself since the 2000s.
So imagine it: Our nation of 330 million finds itself committed to grow by some unpredictable but large fraction (a quarter, half, double, who knows?) over an equally unpredictable amount of time until the pent-up demand is satisfied, and then will accept elevated immigration levels afterward too.
Adding tens to hundreds of millions of immigrants, largely from poor nations, would have any number of effects. The newcomers could contribute great inventions, serve in our military, and introduce delicious cuisines; they could also bring with them the institutions, political beliefs, and cultures that made their home countries worth leaving, stress our housing and labor markets, and ignite ethnic conflict, both with each other and with U.S. natives.
Of all the downsides of open borders, the burden on the welfare state might not be the biggest. In theory it could even be one of the easier problems to address: Just ban immigrants from state support.
In practice, though, it's difficult to welcome millions of poor people without giving them some help. Witness the struggles of New York City to handle just 40,000 asylum seekers, who amount to roughly 0.5 percent of the city's 8.5 million population. Or contemplate millions of seniors without health care while homeless encampments grow in the nation's already-housing-starved cities. Further, thanks to the U.S. rule of "birthright citizenship," all children born to immigrants here are automatically citizens, which complicates any effort to exclude them from welfare programs.
An extensive 2017 study from the National Academies estimated that immigrants with a high school degree or less tend to cost the government more than they pay in taxes over a 75-year period. It also stressed that state and local governments are hardest hit in the near term thanks to the need to provide basic services such as education to a suddenly larger population, with many states losing thousands of dollars per first-generation immigrant on average. Research from the Migration Policy Institute shows that immigrant families are more likely than native ones to use safety-net programs.
An open-borders policy, beyond being unrealistic, represents an insane gamble with the stability of the most powerful nation on the planet. Those who want looser immigration laws should set their sights lower and calibrate their rhetoric to match.
Here's a different approach: Start with the easy cases, such as those with valuable skills and perhaps refugees as well, and try to push those numbers up. If you can show the public that higher numbers in these categories improve the country, they might be tempted to follow you further.
Subscribers have access to Reason's whole May 2023 issue now. These debates and the rest of the issue will be released throughout the month for everyone else. Consider subscribing today!
- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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Oh, this is going to be fun. I for one vote for open borders with an even more comprehensive welfare state. We're only a measly 32 trillion dollars in debt, we can easily afford to be a few hundred trillion in debt. Debase the currency, unlimited free shit for everybody, elect Bernie King! What could go wrong?
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That probably involves the question of illegal immigrants which confuses the issue.
Open borders should be opposed on the grounds that such a policy in a society of private property would require legalizing trespassing.
That Reason might actually suggest that trespassing be allowed to support open borders is a MAJOR fault !!
Not just trespassing but theft through expansion of the welfare state, but then they are fine with arson and murder as long as it's for a marxist cause with fraudulent racial grievances attached.
Not at all. The Affirmative arguer explicitly addresses this point. Trespassing is something that can only happen on my property or your property. The concept of trespassing does not apply to our property (that is, the government's property). You simply can't "trespass" on the government roads or the village common. In a libertarian system, the collective has no property right to assert.
Oh yeah, try to run on a golf course. Or through a court room.
The property held by the government belongs to all of us; we are all property owners. Like a golf club we have the right of use, but not the right of division (e.g. sale of a parcel, or build on a parcel).
Being a libertarian does NOT mean that there are not rights that are shared. Own a home? With your spouse? Is that not libertarian? Local school? Can you come and go as you please in it?
If this fool makes this argument he is not a libertarian, or a respecter of property rights.
Ah yes. The tragedy of the commons. AKA San Francisco.
And there is the nub of the problem - the commons. The libertarian answer to the Tragedy of the Commons is to eliminate the commons. Sell it to property owners who will manage it efficiently.
That is the BEST answer. But clearly, there are commons that will not be sold, so they must be managed. And they should be managed by the owners (the people) or their elected representatives.
And all that assumes a state-controlled society with public property borders.
Not the best example that a libertarian should use in determining a view.
A society of private property is far better!
And there , open borders does require legalizing trespassing !
In an all property is private property anarcho-capitalist society, common areas such as roads would either be owned in whole or each stretch would be an easement of each individual property owner (like private roads right now). If you hire someone to come work on your property, but they have to cross my section of the common road/area, wouldn’t this argument be saying that their trespass is ok?
Precisely.
Open borders is the end of property rights.
Open borders should be opposed on the grounds that such a policy in a society of private property would require legalizing trespassing.
This is entirely false. In fact, your premise actually ends the idea of private property and treats the entire country as if it is the property of the country (government) itself.
Bryan even addresses this, quite well, in his argument:
The core of libertarianism is that a country belongs not to “the people” collectively, but to property owners individually.
This is "soveriegn citizen" bullshit and is hardly to be taken seriously.
No, it's the core of private property rights. The majority shouldn't get to veto my property rights to rent to whomever I want.
There's a world of difference between who you rent your property to (and cut the bullshit, everyone knows you're not renting to illegal immigrants) and national borders.
Libertarianism is not anarchy, which is what you're promoting.
Open borders nuts are……. well, nuts.
No, didn't you hear? Thinking illegals are trepassing is a socialist idea.
Libertarians believe in collective ownership
Libertarians believe in sovereign borders.
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No. And GFY.
Next question
An open-borders policy, beyond being unrealistic, represents an insane gamble with the stability of the most powerful nation on the planet.
Well, that's not going to be a very convincing argument to most of the Open Borders crowd, since they're already gambling with that stability as hard as they can on the riskiest games.
Seems very convincing since destabilization seems to be their goal.
Gun bans are 'fairly mild'? Vaccines mandates are 'fairly mild'? If this is your thinking, I will take the rest of your points with a large grain of salt.
Yeah, that whole thing read like a non-libertarian trying to tell us how libertarians are supposed to think.
I agree with your main point. Both of those are poor examples of "mild" infringements on liberty.
But I would counter... how would you classify bans on free movement and association? Are those "fairly mild?"
Maybe stop stealing from me to pay for the lifestyle of others first before you start adding unlimited hordes of leeches to the equation.
How do you differentiate between free movement and an invasion? When the Franks entered Gaul, were they freely moving or invading? I think if you say the country can't control it's borders at all, your basically also saying the country can't defend itself. Let's take a non-state actor for example. How would you stop say an EPA terrorist coming into the country, if he's invited by a group of Basque nationalists? Oh, as long as he doesn't break any laws, it's fine, but given how terrorists act, by the time he commits a crime, you have blood on your hands. And if government has any function, it's providing for the defense of the country, and as such, they have a right to monitor who comes into the country, and what purpose they have for entering the country. Otherwise, a country, say maybe a certain East Asian country, could open a secret police officer in NYC, and use it to target democratic activists, and the government would have little to no recourse, as speech is protected, but immigration for the purpose of a foreign government is not. And before you say this is conspiracy theory or such, the FBI actually arrested several Chinese immigrants who were running a secret police station in NYC, for the ChiCom government this weekend.
Without border enforcement, a nation might as well not even exist. As in my Gaul Frank example, the Romans allowed the Franks to freely immigrate into Gaul, and eventually (a couple generations) the Franks were running the place. The Anglo-Saxons were invited into England, and eventually were running the place. History is replete with examples of countries not enforcing borders and the consequences are never that the country continues as before, but almost universally that the old system is overthrown and a new system, often subjugating the original inhabitants, put in place. Look at colonialism, especially English colonialism, hell even in America, they were often invited in, but eventually ended up running the place. Ask the American Indian how well it worked out for them, not being able to enforce the border.
When you split the sample up by education and age, high school dropouts and the elderly are net negatives but all other demographics are net positives.
So would Capland be in favor of open borders for people with at least a high school education under the age of 60, and a restriction on everyone else?
Under the age of thirty, I should say.
I think t should be restricted to beautiful women between the ages of 20 and 30. And by women I mean women.
That was always my proposed immigration policy.
Look at Mr. Biologist over here.
How can the math be so benign? First, because immigrants’ home countries often pay for most or all of their education, so U.S. taxpayers don’t have to.
And here’s where you can see someone not operating in good faith. There’s a conflation between the people who have been screened and applied for work visas based on actual job openings, and the type of people who just want to cross the border with all of their kids to get a free public education. These two groups are not the same, and the current laws, as written, make a strong distinction between them.
In the sake of advancing an argument, you count Group B as members of Group A when their circumstances are greatly different.
That line stood out to me as well.
> First, because immigrants’ home countries often pay for most or all of their education, so U.S. taxpayers don’t have to.
Even if true, to what level?
Can't start a Church? Actual analogy is no one can start a Church if it's not zoned for it, and America is zoned to exclude all illegals. Libertarians should stay away from doing certain things, like drugs and logic.
Totally open borders are probably too much but we could definitely make it easier to get in and make policies to help cover issues like costs. Treat this like a market and just charge people to get in (many already pay smugglers) and/or charge them higher taxes for the first 5 or 10 years so maybe having a job and paying those taxes becomes the path to citizenship. People are a valuable resource, our birth rate is below replacement and the population is getting older so an influx of mostly younger workers would be a plus especially if they pay more than their share to get in.
By NAS calculations, the average current immigrant to the U.S. is ultimately a net fiscal positive.
Rush Limbaugh said otherwise which means the NAS is a bunch of liars!
Two things CAN be true without one of them being the cause of he other, you know.
Rush Limbaugh? Shrike is rubbing off on you man.
As is well known, Friedrich Hayek was reluctant to come to the U.S. because there was no national health insurance. I guess Milton didn't want the competition.
Guys like Bryan Caplan are why libertarianism is viewed as a joke.
Um, no. It's because those who are in power and want more power mock and deride anyone who dares to suggest that power should be limited.
Bryan asks two legitimate questions that so far everyone has failed to answer.
If you answer 1) "no" and 2) "yes" then you have to explain why open borders isn't the proper libertarian position. If you answer differently, then I think you have to explain why you think you're a libertarian.
Nobody has provided an answer to that yet. If you're willing to open up for debate inalienable rights that we all theoretically agree on because of unwanted outcomes, then you have to question whether you actually believe in inalienable rights to begin with.
It's interesting how many people who will rail against unjust laws will, when immigration is brought up, cross their arms and say "The law is the law. Illegals are illegal. Tautologies are tautological."
The USA *already* has more immigration than any other large nation in the world...........
Yet reason libertarians will never be satisfied until all the immigrating socialists gets to completely conquer and consume the USA. Mission 80% accomplished.
Whoops; wrong place.
Your reply is; If you're confused please see the US Constitution.
The feds have every authority they need to legalize the immigration process.
Google "appeal to authority."
It’s the VERY reason a Union of States Government was created.
I’m sure there’s an island somewhere to invade without a government.
Why no massive immigration there? Because immigration is for those looking for someone else's greener pasture to graze on.
Yeah, sure. All immigrants from socialist countries are socialists. Anyone in this country with a foreign accent is a socialist. Not only that but their children will be socialists because politics is hereditary. Heck, they might even infect Americans with their socialism if they're allowed to live in apartment buildings, get jobs, or set foot in grocery stores. It's a scourge that can only be stopped with more government.
Statistically more true than not.
Just look at open-borders CA...
Whether they have the right or not is irrelevant as long as the welfare state remains fully intact. Caplan asks questions that he knows only exist in a socio-economic vacuum, so his position is little more than an exercise in circular reasoning.
Opening the borders doesn’t do anything to reduce the welfare state, and history has shown that allowing mass immigration only increases the demand for it.
The answer to 1 is "no" and the answer to 2 is "yes," and that still doesn't address the welfare state issue.
If an illegal comes here without a job offer on the mere hope that they will find work, they can begin using resources without putting anything into the system. They show up, they have no job, but if they go to a hospital, doctors have a duty to treat, regardless of their ability to pay. Their children can be enrolled in the public school system regardless if they're paying any taxes. They can get other benefits based on their children, like free/reduced cost lunches, again without putting anything into the economy or paying taxes.
Despite what talk radio and your emotions say, the math says immigrants (legal and illegal) are a net fiscal positive. Does that mean math is leftist?
They do this by lumping them into one category, and not by examining the actual resources spent solely on the people illegally crossing borders.
The immigrants who come here are a net fiscal positive, until you subtract the money spent keeping them out?
Gosh; By that retarded ‘math’… Being the nation with the MOST immigration; the USA should be rolling in the fiscal positives… How the F does that equivocate to a $30T debt?
I fear all you're selling is filthy propaganda.
Bullshit. Stop your lies. And fuck off you drunk pussy.
Is that the new math that says they pay taxes and don't get any benefits?
and that still doesn’t address the welfare state issue
I never said it did. I just pointed out that now that we agree these are inalienable rights, then why are you for denying them merely for utilitarian reasons? It’s just baffling to me that you would so easily give up any rights based on a perceived outcome, and somehow consider yourself a proponent of liberty.
Honestly, the only way to fix the welfare state is open borders. Bankrupt the system or force it to change.
Since welfare isn’t a right by any stretch of the imagination, couldn’t we at least make non-citizens ineligible? Why aren’t we talking about that common ground?
Since welfare isn’t a right by any stretch of the imagination, couldn’t we at least make non-citizens ineligible? Why aren’t we talking about that common ground?
Because we're talking about the real world, not stupid utopian pretenses.
That distinction is why Leo doesn’t understand.
I absolutely agree that the Federal government is violating those principles. They should stop doing that, right after they stop violating all the other ones they're doing that make stopping this violation such a terrible prospect in the real world.
Let's assume that everybody has the right to work for anybody they want. That's separate from a right to be physically present in the US. Prohibiting hiring people who are illegally present in the country is an enforcement measure for that latter prohibition.
Outside of an anarchy, laws do get enforcement mechanisms.
The key point here is one that was widely understood in libertarian circles well before Friedman articulated it: Path dependence!
Both open borders AND elimination of the welfare state are implied by libertarianism. But if you, still having a welfare state, open the borders, people will come here FOR the welfare state, and you will never get rid of it.
So getting rid of the welfare state has to come first, or it never happens.
The entire idea that people come to America because of the welfare state is questionable for two reasons:
- Anyone who has personal experience with poor immigrants to the US (whether legal or illegal) has seen that they generally work their asses off.
- Anyone who has personal experience with welfare knows that it isn't some wonderful, desirable lifestyle.
If you think people prefer working their asses off at a minimum wage job over welfare you are deluded. If you think welfare is an unpleasant proposition then you don't really know how generous the aggregated benefits actually are
1 can be rephrased as "Should employers need permission to hire people, should landlords need permission to rent to people, and should merchants need permission to sell stuff to people?"
And the answer is a resounding "HELL YEAH YOU LEFTIST SHIT! ILLEGALS ARE ILLEGAL!"
I’m amazed by the mental gymnastics here to avoid looking like a hypocrite. From what I can tell everyone agrees that these are inalienable rights that should be universally applied, but…
– We can’t be for freedom if any possible outcome is unfavorable (people are on Welfare so we can’t be free)
– We can’t be for freedom if we don’t live in a perfectly free society (otherwise you’re creating a second class of citizens!)
– We can’t be for freedom because there are laws against it! (what are you an anarchist?)
– And my favorite… We live in the real world, we can’t be for freedom!
You posed two questions that actually aren't related to the question of welfare state and illegal immigration (which you even admitted was left unadressed), and are shocked that people didn't fall into your "trap."
Because those answers aren't conclusive on the issue. You are and should be free to get a job from anyone who is willing to hire you. You're not entitled to live on someone else's dime while you look for a job (or choose not to look for a job). If someone else WANTS to pay your living expenses while you're looking for a job, that's a voluntary choice they can opt into and opt out of, but government shouldn't be doing it.
"– We can’t be for freedom because there are laws against it! (what are you an anarchist?)"
Nobody is saying that you're an anarchist because you don't want to follow laws. What they're saying is that open borders is an inherently anarchistic position as it expressly denies the governments authority to enforce its borders.
This may or may not be a desired outcome of your or open borders advocates policies, but it is the way that most people will view it and is the most logical conclusion.
The answer to question 2) is clearly NO. There are numerous reasons that people are prohibited from renting apartments or buying a product.
Can anyone buy a gun? Can anyone buy alcohol or cigarettes? Can anyone rent a room? These all have limits by age or past history of criminality. Foreigners cannot give to political campaigns. Foreigners cannot take certain jobs in the defense or high tech sectors.
Citizenship endows people with privileges in addition to rights. It's like a giant country club that is allowed to restrict membership.
The US is owned by its citizens who have a right to restrict others from entering.
We can be unwilling landlords if we so choose.
""the U.S. Should Open Its Borders""
Not a libertarian position.
I'm down with open borders. However there must be reciprocity. Open travel must be allowed in both directions, not just people coming to the US.
US Constitution; Article IV Section 4....
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against !!!!!!!!----------------Invasion----------------!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stop lobbying for the destruction of the USA psycho Reason.
Calling people in search of jobs and a better life an invasion is like calling a bunch of unarmed yahoos milling about the Capital an insurrection.
LOL... Open-borders to the Capitol Building!!!
I think you're on to something there. An invasion of the capitol building?? What are you talking about? They're just migrating into the capitol building with open-borders. /s
Humorously; the left doesn't even entertain calling it just an invasion of the building which since there wasn't ID entrance requirements (as per evidence) it didn't even fit that narrative... Nope it was OPEN-BORDERS to the Capitol Building. /s
What could possibly be wrong with that?
No it isn’t you weak little pussy.
That's what happens when you at least screen (legal) immigrants for criminal history. Canada's point system that includes skills and education is even better. But opening the border to "come one, come all", won't have the same result.
Here's another problem. The future of the labor force is automation and tech, not unskilled manual labor. Maybe the authors could tell me where hundreds of thousands of former coffee farmers who can't even speak English, are going to find jobs in the near future.
It’s also what happens if you don’t care about the average, just the total.
So, say the average citizen makes $50K, and you have 10 citizens. $500K total economy.
Bring in 10 more people who make $25k. The total economy is now $750K; Big win!
But the average citizen now makes $38K, not $50K, and even if wages are sticky, pay raises start getting hard to get, and eventually the citizens are only making $38K; By increasing the supply of labor, you lowered the price, and now you just have a larger number of poorer people.
Who’s better off, then?
1. The immigrants, who aren’t back home earning $5k. 2. Employers, who enjoy the lower wages. 3. Government, which finds it cheaper to buy votes with the taxes on the employers.
Who’s not better off? Most of the original citizens!
That assumes all jobs are equal, which they are not.
Well, of course it does. How complex an economic model do you expect in an off-hand comment, anyway?
The bottom line stands: Increasing the supply of labor lowers the price of labor. That's about as basic as it gets.
If you're an employer or the government, that's great. If you're a laborer, that sucks.
That's why all the big money, including money going to nominally libertarian organizations, is in favor of open borders. It's coming from people who benefit from driving down the price of labor.
But mainly I was explaining how increased immigration can grow the over-all economy, while making most of the people taking part in that economy poorer. The growth doesn't benefit everybody, it benefits the people at the top of the food pyramid.
Because it's designed to do that.
The bottom line stands: Increasing the supply of labor lowers the price of labor. That’s about as basic as it gets.
Only if there's a fixed supply of jobs. But there isn't. Immigrants not only work, but they consume stuff too. That creates demand and thus creates jobs.
If your logic was correct then population growth, which also increases the supply of labor, should cause poverty.
Look at you here, denying one of the most basic precepts of economics, supply and demand. And just trying to rationalize how it could not be so.
Supply and demand assumes a fixed supply. If there's a fixed supply of widgets and demand increases, the price goes down.
Thing is, there is not a fixed supply of jobs. And increasing the supply of labor also increases demand for stuff, which means more jobs are needed. So increasing the supply of labor increases the supply of jobs.
Supply and demand assumes a fixed supply.
They don't, actually. They only assume a inverse relationship between the two.
He did not. He addressed this explicitly in his comment by explaining that the number of jobs is not fixed.
Look at you, white knighting for Sarc. One lefty bitch protecting another lefty bitch.
Look at how many people have stopped looking for work post pandemic. The labor participation rate is the lowest it's been in forty years. By your logic that decrease in the supply of labor should increase the price, right? Shouldn't we all be getting richer because so many people refuse to work?
By your logic that decrease in the supply of labor should increase the price, right? Shouldn’t we all be getting richer because so many people refuse to work?
It HAS increased the price.
All kinds of businesses are famously offering all kinds of incentives, sign-on bonuses, and bumps in starting salaries to entice workers to come work for them. And as it has been stated before, if a particular industry can't find workers, that's a sign that your wages are too low.
My daughter took her first food-service job a couple of years ago at a chain pizza joint, they paid her $17 an hour. A teenager... at a quasi-fast food joint was paid $17 an hour.
Here's the menu for a middling family restaurant in Seattle. The linked menu is not a high end joint. It's what I would call a bog standard middle-of-the-road sit-down restaurant. Notice the prices for a steak.
For those that don't click through:
Artichoke dip for $15.
Now imagine those prices at a top-rated steak house.
Prices are through the fucking roof, and there are help-wanted signs EVERYWHERE.
Libertarianism: The only philosophy that recognizes a shortage of things causes rising prices-- or an abundance of things causes dropping prices... except magically for labor.
I mean, Jesus H Christ, is that where libertarianism has come? A shortage of something causes the price to go down?
I got my biggest raise in 20 years last year. Not so much because of labor shortages, but because of inflation.
I wonder what might be contributing to that inflation?
Oh, come on now!
Naturally the government wants inflation blamed on absolutely anything but the government's own actions. In fact, inflation is basically always a monetary phenomenon, this has been known for ages by anybody who didn't crow about Milton Friedman not being in charge anymore.
So, what exactly do you expect the International Monetary Fund to say? "Mea culpia, we're doing this to you!"? Of course they're going to find somebody, anybody, to blame it on, but government.
Yeah, I’m sure you’re getting more welfare form the state than ever before. Let km know when you’ve got enough for a bus ticket to come kick my ass.
I’m still awaiting for you.
Awesome! Let's stop more people from working! When nobody works we'll all be rich!
We have stopped people from working. We've broken our culture to the point where it's possibly irreparable. Natives are increasingly not working because we're paying them not to, and we're telling immigrants that we'll pay them to not work as well. This isn't going to end well.
But fewer workers is good. More workers is bad. This should end swimmingly based upon the logic used to keep out foreign laborers.
If you're offering people to come here and get paid to not work, how is this going to end with "more workers" and a smaller welfare-industrial complex?
Now you're moving the goalposts. I'm tired of this. Good day.
I'm not moving goalposts, I specifically responded to Caplan's ridiculous argument that "hey, there's nothing unlibertarian about increasing the welfare industrial complex and size, scope and power of the state as long as it serves the narrative of open borders!
You responded by denying that supply (or lack thereof) in the labor market has any effect on wages-- and I successfully put that argument to bed.
It is not I who is moving goalposts here.
While increasing the labour supply reduces wages, it also reduces the prices of goods and services, because
1. Labour is used to make goods and services - more labour means more can be produced so there will be a higher supply
2. Decreased wages means people have less spending money, reducing demand.
Prices will go way down. And wages will go down too. Who will benefit? The people with money in savings. That won't go down.
(And also, obviously, the immigrants who are now being paid more will benefit).
Of course, a welfare state does make things worse.
Friedman plainly overstates. Suppose the welfare state gave everyone in the United States just $1 per year. Even if everyone on Earth moved here, that annual $8 billion would be only a little more than 0.1 percent of the federal budget. No matter how philosophically opposed to this handout you are, it would be foolish to insist that it “cannot” be done.
*eyebrows raised*
Without googling it, what does *chooses random state* Colorado spend per patient in healthcare dollars who receive state healthcare benefits? Now expand that cost to everyone on the planet... x food stamps, x rental assistance, x ____________.
I saw a formerly homeless person post pictures after their medical transition surgery (as a transgender) and people, naturally, asked how they could afford it if they were homeless. Their response? The state of Colorado paid for them to medically transition, on the taxpayers dime…
Ex pet we're not talking $1 but a "living wage" so a total of ~$50k. How does Caplan's point stand then?
>>But was he right?
if money was a thing in 1999 yes, but since money is an electronic fantasy in 2023, probably not
If you snap these two answers together, they imply a policy of free immigration.
I miss Shikha.
This is an interesting form of the 'out of balance' libertarianism that I've been talking about lately.
Caplan's view is incredibly naïve and juvenile. When you increase the welfare state, you're not just spending a few extra bucks like one would if a Netflix subscriber decided to add Hulu. You're increasing the size, scope and power of the state.
Now I note that Caplan doesn't mention illegal immigration (tellingly) so perhaps Caplan is talking about legal immigration only, however his argument seems to indicate an elimination of the distinction.
And statements like this leave me gobsmacked:
The philosophical objection to excluding burdensome immigrants is even stronger. If government may justifiably forbid the entry of burdensome immigrants, may government also justifiably forbid the birth of burdensome natives?
One of the central (and much criticized) libertarian positions is the elimination of the systems which support said burdensome natives. So Caplan's argument veers from the fig leaf of libertarianism to I-completely-forgot-what-libertarianism-argues.
Libertarians who argue for better controls on illegal immigration have at least recognized the crushing reality that these systems of expansive state welfare are in place and that there's little stomach to roll them back. So throwing the system further out of balance AND dramatically increasing the power of the state for the sole purpose of sating a few emotional members of the Libertarianism Plus cohort will not have a positive outcome for anyone.
Other than place of birth, what's the difference between an unskilled immigrant and a piece of white trailer trash?
One automatically gets free healthcare, the other is being offered it.
In your case, a massive amount of bottom shelf liquor.
Caplan explicitly says: “Pragmatically, the obvious objection is: Why are you focused on excluding burdensome immigrants instead of limiting their access to benefits so they cease to be burdensome?”
Which means he is not advocating for extending welfare state benefits to immigrants.
“One of the central (and much criticized) libertarian positions is the elimination of the systems which support said burdensome natives.”
According to whom? Many moderate libertarians support a social safety net and public schools.
But 'open immigration' does not mean a vast, and growing welfare state; it is not cause/effect. America will not run out of living space, water or anything else by allowing open immigration; and it's a blatant fallacy.
No, actually it IS cause and effect, because essentially everybody coming here will either be from more of a welfare state, or be a likely user of the welfare state.
And they'll get to vote for more of what they came for.
They are coming for freedom, especially freedom to work. So, win-win — they’ll vote for liberty and right-to-work.
You may want to look at Cali and various other states looking to open their welfare benefits of various sorts to illegal aliens, or the way anchor babies are used in the payment of illegals along with the metrics from them. That doesn't include the people pushed out of employment and onto state benefits due to illegal immigration. Open immigration without fully dismantling the welfare state is increasing the welfare state.
Last week the narrative was "quit exaggerating, no one wants open borders". That will be the narrative again next week. But this week the narrative is "anyone against open borders is socialist and racist."
It's the best of both worlds.
i almost feel bad for the person tasked with writing in favor.... unless they really mean it.
it is true. you cannot have a welfare state and open borders. what i just read was an embarrassing attempt to hyperbole your way out of an undeniable basic FACT. oh, everyone is only going to get one dollar...... give me a break....
i think that open borders, like most of the worst mistakes of government, sounds nice at first. but when we already have conditions that make it untenable, we should be focused on fixing those conditions FIRST. anything less makes you look like you have absolutely no idea how reality works.
and let us be clear..... the huddled masses that want to come here are not just enticed by the opportunity to work.... they are the ones applying for asylum so they can get around those pesky barriers to public assistance. they are the ones staying with the one legal resident so they can be counted as members of the household for that person's assistance payments. they are the ones that want to have their child born here so that they can get assistance through the child. the ones who want to come and get a job with a willing employer can already get a work visa and come. it is the people WITHOUT prospects for work that largely want to come here if you open the borders.
but viability is just the most glaring flaw with fully open borders. there is also a terribly naive ignoring what it means to be a country/society/nation in the first place. we are a collection of people. you can pick whatever criteria you want for what defines that collection (territory/history/etc.) and it is still a FINITE collection. we are not responsible for all other people on the planet. just like we should not be the police for the rest of the world, we have no moral imperative to let everyone from everywhere come here and reap the fruits of our labors.
Please re-read the part about one dollar of aid. I believe you missed the point, which was it is jot the mere existence of any level of welfare to immigrants that would be burdensome, it depends on how much is provided.
Caplan goes on a couple of paragraphs later to say that if the amount of welfare benefits provided to immigrants is burdensome then reduce the amount.
"Caplan goes on a couple of paragraphs later to say that if the amount of welfare benefits provided to immigrants is burdensome then reduce the amount."
the problem is that anyone advocating for open borders NEVER makes that action dependent on the benefits being reduced FIRST. this argument spends most of its time trying to discount that we should worry about it at all.
“the problem is that anyone advocating for open borders NEVER makes that action dependent on the benefits being reduced FIRST.”
Huh? This entire argument is hypothetical.
Nobody from either of the two major American political parties ever makes an argument for open borders, so how could they argue for it’s being depending on benefits reduces first or later.
And, as far as hypothetical advocacy for open borders, Caplan just did make an argument that reduction of benefits first would be acceptable.
"Nobody from either of the two major American political parties....."
the debate here is from a "libertarian perspective," so you are not making anything resembling a valid argument with this one.
"....Caplan just did make an argument that reduction of benefits first would be acceptable."
"acceptable," not "necessary." you are GREATLY overstating his point on this. he spends most of the argument trying to dismiss that we need to worry about it at all, and at the end says it might be OK if we excluded immigrants from some of the benefits. that is not what you are trying to pretend it is.
“the debate here is from a ‘libertarian perspective,'”
Then when you said “anyone advocating for open borders” you didn’t mean real-world advocacy that would matter, as in Congress. You meant only among libertarians debating each other. So, then Caplan just did what you said is never done: he said it is fine to make it dependent on benefits being reduced first.
You yourself acknowledge that he said it: “says it might be OK if we excluded immigrants from some of the benefits.”
His exact words were: “Virtually every country already limits foreigners’ access to benefits. The Gulf monarchies, with extremely strict limits, not coincidentally have the world’s most open immigration policies. Why not emulate that?”
That isn’t say it might be OK. It is saying it would be OK. You are understating his point for some reason.
"Then when you said “anyone advocating for open borders” you didn’t mean real-world advocacy that would matter, as in Congress."
no, dip-shit... i was trying to be nice. the fact is that there are people in positions of power who are advocating for open borders. anyone even attempting to be honest knows this. if it were not a topic of any relevance then articles like this one would not exist in the first place. but, since i have no interest in the tribalism BS, i decided to just point out that the discussion here is about the issue itself, and not that tribalism.
"You are understating his point for some reason."
no, you are overstating it. it takes a great deal of deliberate ignorance to ignore that almost the entire write up is dedicated to pretending we don't have to worry about the cost of handouts at all and lend some great significance to a lame statement at the end. if the author meant it the way you are pretending they did then they are basically admitting that everything else they wrote is complete and utter BS.
Caplan goes on a couple of paragraphs later to say that if the amount of welfare benefits provided to immigrants is burdensome then reduce the amount.
So as more and more people are incentivized to vote Dem for their benefits these Dems are going to respond by reducing those benefits, a step they have literally never once taken in their entire history. Socialists and left wingers generally share a childish belief in unicorn fairy dust.
“what it means to be a country/society/nation in the first place”
And I grew up in an America where it gave great meaning to our society to be a melting pot that accepts immigrants. Don’t know when so many Americans stopped seeing things this way, but it is sad.
"And I grew up in an America where it gave great meaning to our society to be a melting pot that accepts immigrants."
perhaps what you failed to understand about that America you grew up in is that those immigrants were always expected to integrate and make their own way. it has NEVER been an America where we welcome others to come in and take what they have not worked for.
Fine. So, do that.
So, do that.
This is where we see Laursen's disingenuousness. He acts as if this is actually a choice knowing full well it is not. Put that right next to his assertion it's the American right that rejects the melting pot, rather than the left, and we see someone advancing an absurd interpretation of modern political reality.
does that mean you understand that the welfare state has to be dismantled before open borders looks viable?
It was probably about the time people started calling the melting pot framework racist and training their acolytes to believe Americanizing should be shunned in favor of the eternal grievance and hatred of Balkanization.
The interesting conflict here is Laursen pretending he supports the melting pot theory. But if that were true he would care about the attacks on it. Instead not only are those attacks missing but he defends criticism of those making those attacks. So there's a conflict between the banding he claim and the actions he takes. We all know what revealed choice is: when someone's actions conflict with what they say their actions reveal their true preferences.
But according to https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/information-for-employers-and-employees/employer-information , American employers must prove that 1. There are not enough available, qualified American workers to fill the position 2. Bringing this worker into the States won’t have a negative effect on similar US workers’ wages
So they can't just come in and get a job from a willing employer.
There is no proper order to liberty. If you wait for it to happen in the order you want, it never will happen. If free immigration will collapse the unconstitutional and corrupt welfare state, then so be it. And Robert VerBruggen, as someone with many foreign friends who does not ask "Papers, please" before associating with them or even receiving them as guests, I challenge you to pick up your own rifle and kick in my door yourself if you dislike that. Sending thugs to do your totalitarian violence for you makes you a worse person than someone who does it himself, not better.
Each country regulates the issue of controlling the movement of tourists in accordance with its own rules. There are countries that cancel visas, some countries, on the contrary, tighten the conditions for entering the country. And if you are faced with the need to open a visa to visit countries, https://visadrom.com/ will help you make an Itinerary for Visa flight and book a hotel and ⭐ travel medical insurance for all worldwide countries. This is really good support.
Right. This "supposition" presumes the effective abolition of the welfare state to argue why abolishing it isn't actually necessary.
Yes, I absolutely agree that if "welfare" was only giving everyone $1 per year, then we could have open borders.
Make that actually happen and I will fully advocate for open borders.
Until that occurs, we still have an order of operations problem.
You'd think a professor of economics wouldn't be so economically illiterate.
Sadly, I really wouldn't, these days.
Have you read anything from Krugman?
He's not economically illiterate. He doesn't want a libertarian society, and open immigration is the best way to make sure it can never happen.
Some of the government property that you’re not allowed to use as you please is used for purposes that most libertarians consider illegitimate from first principles. Schools, for example, do not deliver a product that needs to be the exclusive provenance of the government.
But yes, there are still properties held by the government for limited and narrow purposes that even the most ardent libertarians will support. And where the nature of that purpose creates a right to exclude. The law sometimes calls that “trespass” but that’s a legal fiction. Trespass is a property crime and you can’t trespass on property you own. You, the citizen, own the military base. The crime you’re actually committing is ‘unauthorized access’ to a secure facility – a crime that has it’s roots in the protected purpose, not in the ownership of the land itself.
And, just to make the point clear, there is nothing in an open borders policy that requires the elimination of the crime of unauthorized access to a secure facility. Both citizens and immigrants can be arrested for that.
Well, there's your mistake. You should be hitting the online dating sites, instead of some refugee site.
Matt has argued in the past for social safety nets. Not sure about the public schools though.