Florida Decides To Extend LGBT School Censorship to All Grades After All
This was never about shielding just the youngest kids from sexual topics.

Florida's "Don't Say Gay" law may actually earn its nickname as the state considers an Education Department proposal to ban almost all instruction about LGBT issues in all grades.
When Florida lawmakers passed H.B. 1557 last year with the support and encouragement of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis, the text of the bill forbid educators and schools from encouraging any sort of discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in classrooms from kindergarten through third grade.
Opponents of the bill called it a "Don't Say Gay" law. Many media outlets accepted the shorthand description, while some conservatives objected to the label and accused the media of misleading people. Those who defended the bill noted that the censorship only applied to the youngest of students and that the purpose was to postpone discussions on sexuality to a more appropriate age.
But Reason took note at the time of H.B. 1557's potential to extend this censorship far beyond K-3 classes. Its text didn't just ban LGBT discussions in early grades—it also banned any instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity in any grade "that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students." The bill itself did not give any definition of what would or would not be appropriate for different ages or grades. That would be something leaders at the Florida Department of Education would have to hammer out later.
It's been a year since the law passed, and this week, Education Department leaders submitted a proposed rule for how sexual orientation and gender identity could be taught in all grade levels in the state—or more accurately, a proposed rule for how those topics will not be taught in schools. Under the state's "Principles of Professional Conduct for the Education Profession in Florida," leaders say teachers:
Shall not intentionally provide classroom instruction to students in grades 4 through 12 on sexual orientation or gender identity unless such instruction is either expressly required by state academic standards as adopted in Rule 6A-1.09401, F.A.C., or is part of a reproductive health course or health lesson for which a student's parent has the option to have his or her student not attend.
So, the warnings were, indeed, correct. H.B. 1557 was intended ultimately to significantly restrict the circumstances under which sexual orientation and gender identity may be discussed in all public school classrooms in the state. This is censorship.
I took a glance at Florida's education standards in social studies. On their list of benchmarks updated in 2022, it calls for teaching high-schoolers how Nazis rounded up homosexuals along with Jews and other minorities during the Holocaust. High school psychology classes are also expected to teach about sexual orientation and gender identity. But those are the only references in the state's 86-page description of standards for classes ranging from history to civics to humanities courses. There are exactly five references to sexual orientation, gender identity, or homosexuality.
And so the inclination here would be to say, "Well, the school districts will still be teaching about sexual orientation in these relevant contexts, right?" Not so fast. The Department of Education has just submitted a plan to update the state's social studies standards to remove four benchmarks for grades nine through 12, and while the request doesn't list which benchmarks are being removed (there will be a hearing in April) the department lists the criteria of H.B. 1557 as the reason for their removal.
I attempted to get the list of benchmarks being removed directly from the administrator who submitted the proposed changes but ended up getting funneled to the Department of Education's communications office, which directed me to send an email request for more information. As of publication, the department has not responded.
I don't want to make assumptions, but it would be reasonable given the context to predict that the proposed changes would be to remove the standards in the psychology section that call for teachers to educate students about sexual orientation and gender identity. If that's the case, deleting these standards and applying the proposed rule mentioned above would forbid psychology teachers from teaching high school students about what is arguably a core topic in that field.
These proposed rule changes aren't just about making sure teachers discuss sexual orientation and gender identity only when it is appropriate. Evidence suggests that Florida officials are attempting to censor LGBT discussions in classrooms as much as they possibly can. The "Don't Say Gay" label is becoming more and more apt as time goes by.
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“LGBT School Censorship to All Grades After All
This was never about shielding just the youngest kids from sexual topics.”
But then…
“the text of the bill forbid educators and schools from encouraging any sort of discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity in classrooms from kindergarten through third grade…
But Reason took note at the time of H.B. 1557’s potential to extend this censorship far beyond K-3 classes. Its text didn’t just ban LGBT discussions in early grades—it also banned any instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity in any grade “that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students.”
Shackford you asshole. Have you ever considered not lying to and gaslighting us?
No, he hasn't. Shackford has an agenda and he's pushing it in spite of facts and reality. Groomers gotta groom.
Those little kids aren't going to throw themselves at the womyn looking for a good time.
True. But teaching them about sexual and gender identity won't change that. There is a difference between knowing what "gay" "straight" "cis" and "trans" mean and actually wanting to have sex with whatever a womyn is.
Because outside of queer theory and other identity Marxist cults , there is no such thing as “CIS” and “Trans”? Especially for K-3 grade? And it isn’t the place of state employees to start laying the framework for dementing society before kids even start learning reading comprehension?
"Because outside of queer theory and other identity Marxist cults , there is no such thing as “CIS” and “Trans”? Especially for K-3 grade?"
You don't believe that cis and trans are real things in the world? Or that intentionally suppressing knowledge for K-3 kids prevents them from being real for those kids for that time period?
And now that the ban has been extended to everyone 18 and under? Are sexual and gender preferences inappropriate subjects for 13-18 year olds, more than 2/3 of whom are sexually active?
"cis" is used to degrade and insult folks by the hate mongers in the "queer" community. sorry I don't accept your language.
"trans" is another term that has no meaning. Evolution determines your gender..so there is no such thing as transgenders. Transvestites do exist and "trans" should be defined as such.
As for kids...public schools should team sexual reproduction and leave personal decisions on sexuality outside of govt schools.
Wow. Are you about 80? I swear you were about to tell me to get off your lawn.
"“cis” is used to degrade and insult folks"
Cis is merely a way to identify people who live the same gender as their genetalia. It isn't degrading or insulting. I'm a white, straight, cisgender man. All four of those things are parts me and none of them are bad or insulting.
It's like if there was a word that meant "has ten fingers" you would object if someone used it.
"“trans” is another term that has no meaning."
Trans does have a meaning. Maybe it didn't when you were a kid and WWI was a recent event, but things change. Your unwillingness to accept cultural change doesn't make it fake news.
"Evolution determines your gender..so there is no such thing as transgenders."
That's not what evolution does. Evolution doesn't have anything to do with gender, it is about the emergence and differentiation of species over time.
"public schools should team sexual reproduction"
That was what was called the "plumbing" version of sex ed when I was a kid, which is why I figure you're about 80. That ship sailed decades ago. Ignorance-only sex education is why the teen birth rate is so high in the states that don't include topics like "how to prevent pregnancy" and "how to prevent STIs".
It'll be interesting to see what happens now that the states that think kids should be punished for having sex (an evolutionary impulse, BTW) are getting midieval about abortion.
I'm going to predict a 25% increase in teen pregnancies, overloaded social service departments, and families with the means taking sudden vacations with their daughters to states with legal abortion. Because they're all hypocrites when it's their kid who's pregnant.
If someone prefers the opposite sex it is heterosexual. "cis" is just a way to apply contempt for those you hate because you have an inferiority complex and are screaming for attention. Just like "whiteness"...a hate term by bigots.
Evolution (natural selection and random mutation) resulted in a male and female specialized sexual organs and other differences for procreation of animals. IF you are born a male you are a male. You can't wish that away. Dude it isn't that hard to accept reality.
Transgenderism should be treated as a mental illness with therapy to get to the causes. With the proper treatment, many can move on from this confusion.
“If someone prefers the opposite sex it is heterosexual.”
Yes, and homosexual is someone who prefers the same sex. Cisgender is a different thing altogether.
Are you actually ignorant of what cisgender means, or are you just a cranky old man yelling at people to get off your lawn?
“Just like “whiteness”…a hate term by bigots.”
White is a racial classification. Or Caucasian. Or non-Hispanic white. None of them are hate terms.
“Evolution (natural selection and random mutation) resulted in a male and female specialized sexual organs and other differences for procreation of animals.”
For some animals, yes. Others developed different means of reproduction. And, given enough time, humans could shift to one of those alternate methods if it was an evolutionary advantage.
Evolution doesn’t have a preference for sexual reproduction over other reproductive strategies. But it’s clear you do.
“IF you are born a male you are a male. You can’t wish that away. Dude it isn’t that hard to accept reality.”
Yes, which is why the term “trans man” refers to a person who was born with female chromosomes and/or sex organs and lives life as a male. There’s a difference between genetalia and gender. To quote, “Dude, it isn’t that hard to accept reality”.
But it does explain why you can’t accept what “cisgender” means. You’ve obviously made a conscious choice to live in the world you wish existed, not the real world.
“Transgenderism should be treated as a mental illness with therapy to get to the causes. With the proper treatment, many can move on from this confusion.”
I’m curious why your proclamations on the subject are relevant. Is this something you have studied as a psychological professional? Are you a data scientist who has crunched the numbers and can point to a definitive conclusion about the nature, causes and best treatment for those who experience gender dysphoria? Are you someone with any investigative experience whatsoever regarding gender issues? Or are you someone who has a personal opinion and anger issues that cause you to demand that everyone accept your low-information opinion?
I’d go all-in on the last one. You never seem very informed and frequently seem very angry about how strangers choose to live their lives.
He must be desperately afraid Florida will make sexual tourism in Florida that much more difficult for him.
Your premise is flawed. Neither the Parental Rights in Education Act nor the regulations promulgated by the Florida Department of Education do anything to stop sex tourism.
What facts and reality are you talking about? What is a "groomer" to you?
A teacher or curriculum using Paulo Frieri’s pedagogical model of concientizing children to various activist struggles so that they grow up little Marxists who can’t actually read. If you think it’s essential for kindergarteners to learn emotional responses to world hunger instead of learning to distinguish between circles and squares, you might be a groomer.
"A teacher or curriculum using Paulo Frieri’s pedagogical model"
Exactly how many early childhood educators do you think use a pedagogical approach to education ... of kindergarteners?
I had to read your post several times to confirm that you actually defined "groomers" not as those who slowly prepare children for sexual exploitation, but instead as someone who uses a specific, esoteric pedagogical theory.
"If you think it’s essential for kindergarteners to learn emotional responses to world hunger instead of learning to distinguish between circles and squares, you might be a groomer."
Why do you assume that teaching one prevents learning the other? Google "false dichotomy" to understand how dumb you sound. And learn what a "groomer" actually is if you don't want to keep looking like a lunatic.
When my sister and I whined about "people starving in China," Dad replied: "Name three."
That doesn't take away from Beezard's point.
Beezard doesn't have a point. He has grievances.
Right? Maybe it's just the way it reads, but it sounds like Beezard thinks modeling empathy and compassion is a bad thing for teachers to do. And that it's impossible to teach about squares and circles if you are also teaching about kindness and community.
If he thinks that low a level of productivity is acceptable in a teacher, it's a good thing he never tried to become one. He would have been overwhelmed by the challenge of taking attendance and writing the date on the board at the same time.
Dude, I didn't get past the first sentence where he's still calling it the "Don't say gay" law.
Fucking seriously. If you have a beef with ACTUAL specifics, maybe have a discussion about those specifics and what might be better alternatives in your opinion.
But, no, this immediately pulls all the straw men out of the barn and starts in on them.
You know perfectly well that the most reasonable reading of the bill's text is not the one that is going to be implemented. It isn't a straw man to recognize that governments and litigious citizens have an incentive to engage in mission creep and interpret the bill in a way that gives them the most power to implement their agenda, regardless of whether any reasonable person would interpret the bill that way. Even if the courts rule against frivolous lawsuits, the process of going to court will be punishment enough to deter a lot of people.
If the left got some law like this passed about some issue you cared about you know that you'd be concerned. Woke radicals constantly talk about how all of the restrictions on free expression they support are just ways to prevent bullying and hate. Gun control advocates always say that they just want to keep machine guns and grenade launchers out of the hands of serial killers. We all know that they're either lying or self-deceived. Eventually mission creepy will set in and their policies will be expanded past what was originally intended. You're the same as them.
They have multiple times. My kid can't even wear an NRA hat to school and we live in rural Montana where teachers take sick days to go hunting.
Very good point.
"Dude, I didn’t get past the first sentence where he’s still calling it the “Don’t say gay” law."
Yeah, cultural conservatives tend to get bent out of shape when people call things like they are. You guys are so fragile and whiny.
And if you done your research, you would find out that the term "gay" isn't even mentioned at all. There's nothing that indicates "don't say gay" whatsoever. Read the actual bill instead of dismissing "cultural conservatives" by saying they "get bent out of shape".
This is the text of the law:
"3. Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.”
Wow, you’re right. It only says “sexual orientation”. That could mean anything!
For anyone who needs an example of what the term ‘gaslighting’ means, Truthfulness has provided an excellent example.
He's just pissed that math teachers won't be allowed to give advice on sucking cock, and will instead be forced to teach... math. OK, Groomer.
But where is the lie? This article is about how the Florida department of education decided to implement the Parental Rights in Education Act. They choose to implement it by banning all sexual and gender identity instruction that isn't required by state academic standards or a health lesson that the parents can have their children opt out of, in all grades.
Yeah, and I have no problem with that, because it's not reading, it's not writing, and it's not arithmetic. I don't think sexual and gender identity instruction should be taught in K-12, and I have doubts about it in college except as an elective that doesn't count towards anything but maybe a psych degree.
I don't see it as being an appropriate part of the K-12 educational system's remit. Period.
This is why the government shouldn't be running schools in the first place: They inevitably get seen as perfect opportunities for anyone in charge of them to engage in indoctrination on controversial topics, so as to win the fight by brainwashing the next generation.
And that's all K-12 "sexual and gender identity instruction" is: An effort to win a deeply controversial and political fight by brainwashing the kids of people who probably don't agree with what will be taugh.
The Government is NOT running the schools.
The Progressive Teacher's Unions are running the schools. Where do you think that this BS is coming from?
NEA is definitely captured. Drove by their DC headquarters adorned with BLM flags a few weeks ago.
But I’m pretty sure Dept of education and most progressive state equivalents are pretty much on board. Same people coming out of the same universities.
"Yeah, and I have no problem with that, because it’s not reading, it’s not writing, and it’s not arithmetic."
A 1950s education for a 21st century student. I'm sure that will end well for the kids who have such limited knowledge that the can't get accepted to college or secure a decent job after high school.
"I don’t see it as being an appropriate part of the K-12 educational system’s remit. Period."
Of course. Why teach about the workd as it is when you can constrain it to the world as you wish it would (but never will) be.
"And that’s all K-12 “sexual and gender identity instruction” is: An effort to win a deeply controversial and political fight by brainwashing the kids of people who probably don’t agree with what will be taugh."
Sure. Learning about Stonewall or Harvey Milk or what a rainbow flag is or that some people have two mommies or two daddies is just making things up that don't exist.
If you are a parent who wants your child to be ignorant because you don't like things that exist, you are a bad parent.
Um, taking the position that if a kid is good at reading, writing, and arithmetic equates to not ending "well for the kids who have such limited knowledge that the can’t get accepted to college or secure a decent job after high school" because they didn't get taught about LGBTQ stuff in elementary school is in and of itself a serious problem.
I never said anything like that, as you know from reading my post.
Limiting kids to reading, writing, and arithmetic will definitely limit their ability to compete. Limiting their exposure to ideas and realities that exist in the world will limit their ability to compete.
Limiting education to the most constrained subjects discussed in the most limited fashion isn't going to help your children learn critical thinking or understand that there are many different people and ideas in the world.
It's not like you are too stupid to understand my post. You just can't defend an education limited to reading, writing, and arithmatic so you misrepresent my post.
History, psychology, and sociology are real things and valid subjects. They will always touch on gay and teans topics because those tjings are real parts of the real world. Neutering them to fit a political or cultural agenda does a disservice to the students who will soon have to compete with better-prepared children from other states.
No one is arguing that the teaching of reading, writing, and arithmetic doesn’t include history, psychology, an sociology. To believe such is disingenuous at best, and purposefully obtuse at worst.
As such, your premise here is that unless kids learn about LGBTQ issues in elementary school and high school they won’t be able to get a decent job or get into college. To believe that is beyond absurd. That’s like claiming if kids aren’t fully taught about the new testament and Jesus they won’t be able to find a good job or get into college.
Not being taught about LGBTQ issues by teachers in elementary school or high school will have absolutely no impact on job obtaining ability or college acceptance. Arguably, too much time spent on such almost inconsequential subjects will deprive kids of needed education time to get jobs and go to college.
"No one is arguing that the teaching of reading, writing, and arithmetic doesn’t include history, psychology, an sociology."
I got a great education and therefore I'm able to differentiate the words "reading, writing, and arithmetic" from "history, psychology, and sociology".
But let's assume you aren't being disingenuous. If you discuss history, psychology, and sociology you will inevitably talk about gay and trans issues, along with racism, misogyny, genocide, and other difficult subjects. The idea that discussing the first two is somehow unacceptable while the latter are fine is bizarre.
"your premise here is that unless kids learn about LGBTQ issues"
That isn't even close to my premise. I don't think that LGBT issues have to be central to education. But I also don't think there is any reason for them to be banned.
My premise is that limiting educational discussions based upon culture war politics rather than subject relevance will result in a substandard education. Education is about expanding knowledge and challenging assumptions. It's about giving kids more to think about, not banning things you don't want them to talk about. It's about broadening, not limiting, their minds.
Is the fact that culturally conservative states constantly dominate the bottom half of educational rankings due to their restrictionist cultural beliefs? I don't know.
But I do know that the states whose policies cultural conservatives hate the most turn out the best educated, most successful students and the states whose policies they support are perennially bad at educating their children.
My argument is that those who focus on culture war issues instead of an expansive education produce graduates with less of an ability to compete for college or jobs. Sure, they can overcome the handicap their parents have imposed on them, but they start off a step behind.
Starting with a larger knowledge base and a stronger, more realistic understanding of the real world and the people who live there provides an advantage over those who have to play catch-up after graduating high school.
I love how your great education still allows you to be obtusely pedantic. I get a kick out of that.
So, moving aside your pedantic obtuseness, yes, your premises is that an education in LGBTQ issues is necessary to get a job or go to college. You are just running away from that now because it's an absurd position for you to have taken.
And this isn't about limiting education, it's about proper education. I don't agree at all with what Florida is doing, but I do agree that teaching about LGBTQ issues is mostly political religiosity and not meaningful education.
If you want to teach about race and racism, gay rights movement, and even this current superficial trans movement, fine. The issue is when teaching about racial issues moves into teaching using CRT and divisive pseudo-intellectual positions. The problem with teaching about trans is the religious ideology that goes along with it.
I'm not sure what the answer is other than cultural fixing. I don't agree of using the heavy hand of government to rectify the matter. But I also am concerned that education quality in this country is becoming abysmal the more and more progressive it gets. And if I had the choice to send my kid to a school where bullshit grievance studies are not taught and rather basic traditional education is the focus (ie. reading, writing, and arithmetic) which include things like history and science, then that's where I want my kid to got.
And that's really the issue. You can prattle on about the claimed difference between education in red and blue states, which has no real basis in logic. But the biggest problem is nationwide our public schools are atrocious and injecting them further with progressive orthodoxy bordering on religious practice is not how you solve it.
"I love how your great education still allows you to be obtusely pedantic."
You clearly don't understand what "pedantic" means. I am pro-knowledge, but school is only the easiest way to amass a large base of knowledge in a short period of time.
I got some of my knowledge in school, but I wasn't as good a student as I should have been and had to get most of it co-founding, running, building, and eventually selling my stake in my business, as well as serving as a US marketing director for two different multinational companies. Plus, of couse, exercising my intellectual curiosity. That's been easier since I retired at 45 because I worked my ass off and succeeded.
As someone who has hired hundreds of people I do put a permium on education because people who already know things waste less of everyone else's time than someone who needs to be taught stuff that everyone else already knows. I learned after the first few times that "we can teach them what they don't know" is only worth the effort if you are teaching details, not completely new subjects.
For example, teaching a new employee that using preferred pronouns creates a pleasant workplace isn't necessary if they already understand trans issues. Otherwise I would have employees wasting time teaching 3rd grade stuff. Literally 3rd grade stuff, like "refer to people the way they ask you to".
Or teaching someone the social etiquette of talking to and about gay people. If you have an important account with a gay person as their rep, would you risk putting someone who never learned about gay people when they should in charge? Someone who has less understanding than the average middle-schooler can't be trusted with important accounts because gay and trans people are everywhere and their ignorance can cost you thousands of dollars.
"yes, your premises is that an education in LGBTQ issues is necessary to get a job or go to college."
No, it isn't. I never said that. I said a limited education makes for a less competitive applicant for college and employment. You can try to twist that all you want, it remains true. The more limited your understanding of the world, the fewer tools you will have to succeed in life. An expansive education will make you more competitive than an artificially constrained education.
More knowledge is desirable. More ignorance is not.
"it’s about proper education."
'Proper' according to you. When I was in elementary school the boys took shop and the girls took home ec because that was 'proper'. Knowledge is knowledge. 'Proper' is pure opinion.
If you believe that knowing about something is bad, you believe that ignorance is a virtue. It isn't.
"when teaching about racial issues moves into teaching using CRT"
You clearly have no clue what CRT is if you think it's being taught in K-12 schools. And no, being taught by a teacher who one time took a class that discussed CRT isn't teaching CRT. The three-steps-removed arguments are logically and factually indefensible.
"The problem with teaching about trans is the religious ideology that goes along with it."
There is only one religious aspect of trans issues and it is not remotely pro-trans.
"I’m not sure what the answer is other than cultural fixing."
How about stop conflating teaching a subject with indoctrination. People can learn about Nazis without becoming a Nazi. They can learn about Jim Crow without becoming a racist. They can learn about the American Revolution without staring a war.
Claiming that teaching about something is the same indoctrination is stupidity on parade. People learn about bad things all the time without becoming bad people. There's a lot of bad shit in history.
"I don’t agree of using the heavy hand of government to rectify the matter."
So you oppose the Don't Say Gay law? Good to know.
"But I also am concerned that education quality in this country is becoming abysmal the more and more progressive it gets."
Because they don't teach subjects the 'right' way? Or because they discuss things that you don't like? Or both?
"And if I had the choice to send my kid to a school where bullshit grievance studies are not taught and rather basic traditional education is the focus (ie. reading, writing, and arithmetic) which include things like history and science, then that’s where I want my kid to got."
That is a self-contradictory statement. There aren't "grievance study" classes. For example, talking about President Trump, his persecution complex, and his petty, whiny grievances doesn't turn a history class into a 'grievance study' class. Teaching about Stonewall and Brandon Teena doesn't, either. Nor does teaching about Jim Crow or the Confederacy's attempt to destroy the United States. It's history, which you claim to support.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What makes something a 'grievance study'? What subjects are so dangerous to discuss that 18-year-olds about to go to college need to be shielded from their instantly-corrupting power (like they said about crack kn the 80s)?
As a follow-up, what does "basic traditional education" mean? I'm assuming you don't mean stale and outdated.
"You can prattle on about the claimed difference between education in red and blue states, which has no real basis in logic."
You think pointing out the documented, historical failure of states that support "traditional" education, as compared to the success of states that support more expansive theories of education has no logical value? It's literally the outcomes that derive from the two different approaches. Claiming that doesn't matter is illogical.
"But the biggest problem is nationwide our public schools are atrocious"
I challenge you to look at the subjects that the average high school student learns today and claim they are inferior to yours.
I'm 53. I went to high school in the late 80s. Calculus was an honors-track course. Today it's standard for high school students. Look at the concepts addressed in biology, which touches on biotechnology (although granted, it is often honors-track work). We didn't learn the advanced concepts they do today when I was in high school. Robotics, coding, biochemistry, and engineering topics are all well beyond what was available 40 years ago. If you think education is worse today than it was when you were in high school, either you don't know what you are talking about or the schools in your area are woefully inadequate.
"injecting them further with progressive orthodoxy bordering on religious practice is not how you solve it."
Well, "progressive orthodoxy bordering on religious practice" sounds completely impartial and you used such specific examples. How could anyone disagree? Especially since including actual religious orthodoxy in public education is still an avowed goal of many cultural conservative groups.
Limiting education based on political biases is a bad idea. I don't care if it's conservative or liberal. The more barriers to knowledge, especially barriers based on partisan cultural biases, does a disservice to children.
Shackford isn't the dishonest one here. Critics predicted the definition of "appropriate" would likely get steadily narrower, which is clearly happening. DeSantis and his supporters love to bleat about freedom, but your freedom goes straight out the window as soon as you make a choice they don't like. That seems to be solidly in or at least very closely adjacent to your lane, so I can see why you don't like this dishonesty being pointed out.
I can see why your mother might lament you. May any gods there may be have mercy on the poor woman.
>>instruction about LGBT issues in all grades.
how, why, and at what grade does gender identity become government curriculum requirement?
I'm thinking, who decided that people who went to teacher's colleges are qualified to advise children on complicated medical issues?
Like eugenics, the craze that was "settled science" among the "right thinkers" from the 1880s to the 1930s I believe that modern fads like genderology and climate change will ultimately pass but not before thousands of lives are ruined beyond hope.
Remember, thousands of children were sterilized to prevent their seed from "polluting the race" in places from Scandinavia to some American states until the 1970s. Long after the craze of eugenics had been repudiated, there were laws on the books and people with enough influence to keep its barbarism alive.
I know, because people in my family were advocates and I heard the talk.
Transgenderism/Gender Fluidity is eugenics for young gay boys.
When is the gay community going to wake up and realize that everything they were warned that the conservatives were going to do to gay kids, the Woke are doing with castration and transgender ideology.
When is the gay community going to wake up and realize that everything they were warned that the conservatives were going to do to gay kids AND WORSE, the Woke are doing with castration and transgender ideology.
FIFY
The conservatives were pretty accepting that they weren't going to be able to convert you to Christianity and live a pious or virtuous life, but they weren't going to cut your balls off to make you convert or shame you for having your balls cut off and then having regrets.
Right. That's Iran.
Yeah, otherwise they'd be breeding like crazy!
Millions of lives will be destroyed.
Tens, maybe hundreds, of millions.
Actually everything Isaac wrote is true and well-documented. Teddy Roosevelt's war on women and "race suicide" when Hitler was a boy sparked a frenzy much like the one Donald Trump and the AfD just reignited. Germans became heartily convinced that altruist morality was an intrinsic, hereditary trait, and began selecting for it. These efforts were praised by radio priests, politicians, inventors, carmakersm Supreme Court judges and loudmouths of every description before 1942.
"how, why, and at what grade does gender identity become government curriculum requirement?"
Schools are supposed to educate students about the world they live in and prepare them to participate, constructively, in that world. Pretending something that impacts 10% of the population directly (and roughly half the population through interpersonal relationships) doesn't exist is intentionally choosing ignorance over knowledge for your children.
I know cultural conservatives prefer ignorance and simpleminded morality, but isn't putting your children at a knowledge disadvantage compared to those they will be competing with for jobs and success cutting off your nose to spite your face?
So, you are okay with the idea that schools should then also teach religious beliefs and doctrines? Should kids be taught the new testament and all about Jesus? After all, there are many more people part of the Christian religion than there are in the LGBTQ religion. We definitely want to make sure those kids get a fully rounded education now, don't we?
Ever hear of comparative religion classes? Public school instruction shouldn't be used as a cover for proselytizing, but that doesn't mean that any mention of religion should be off the table. Giving students as much factually accurate information as possible is generally a good thing in my book.
That's why they want to hijack public schools: to make sure ignorance is as wide spread as possible. All their pious bleating about parental rights and freedom is rapidly being exposed as lies and deceptions. They know they're losing the fight, so they've taken the mask off and now they're trying desperately to cling to the power they still have.
Sounds like a good reason for those against school choice to support school choice. If they want their kids to spend their school days debating gender identity they can send them to a school that includes that as a part of their curriculum. If they'd prefer the school focus on other topics/skills and omit that from their curriculum they could send them to a school that excludes that from their school day.
^
This is the correct answer.
It's better than the status quo, but it isn't the answer.
And I garan-damn-tee you, parents in Florida are a damn sight more interested in their children getting a basic education in mathematics, reading, writing, life skills, and basic social skills that will let them get a good job, as opposed to knowing what of five genders Mx Smith in 10th grade thinks they is today.
The huge majority of Floridian parents think this. We wonder, why is it that your people in New York, say, don't want this?
Because people educated in New York make money and go to Florida for winter or vacation to be served by the product of Florida's education system.
Obviously.
As opposed to those windy city scholars who only serve jail time?
So why are the results of New York schools generally so bad? You missed that part out. Don't be a liar.
That's why it's *critical* that it's discussed in schools, because I guar-an-tee you that many of those neanderthal reich-wing parents have LGBTQ kids at home who are being shunned, hated, beaten and occasionally kicked out of the house for the simple reason they aren't heterosexual. School is the only chance for these kids to escape into the real word and out of the clutches of parents who hate them and want to send them to concentration (oops "conversion") camps.
The world filled with 32 genders is not real and the people who cut off their genitals without regret and shame them when they regret it hate them more than their parents did.
I guar-an-tee you that many of those neanderthal reich-wing parents have LGBTQ kids at home who are being shunned
And therefore we should preemptively treat them all as if they are doing this.
“And therefore we should preemptively treat them all as if they are doing this.”
Cultural conservatives generalize the miniscule minority of pre-adult surgery to all trans conversions, but now you want nuance and not hyperbole?
Either choose to discuss things honestly or stop complaining when you are the target of irrational and unfair generalizations instead of the perpetrator.
Cultural conservatives generalize the miniscule minority of pre-adult surgery to all trans conversions, but now you want nuance and not hyperbole?
No, the “cultural conservatives” are complaining that plenty of teachers, producers and the political elite are teaching children sexuality and encouraging them to engage in such conversions behind the backs of their parents. It doesn’t matter whether or not those conversions constitute a “miniscule minority”.
Your dishonesty is in full display, you tell us that we’re generalizing? Repent of your lies.
"are teaching children sexuality"
If you mean talking to kids about sex (the activity), they are not. If you mean that there are other forms of sexuality besides heterosexuality? Well, sure. That's called 'the real world'.
"encouraging them to engage in such conversions behind the backs of their parents" teachers aren't conspiring to get kids to talk behind their parents' backs. Kids talk about stuff without adults telling them to. It's almost like they make decisions for themselves without being part of a conspiracy against parents.
"It doesn’t matter whether or not those conversions constitute a “miniscule minority”"
It does when they constantly talk about 'chopping off breasts" and 'chopping off penises' (which is less than 1% of all pre-adult conversions) as if it is a common occurrence.
When you pretend that the 99% of conversions (social or hormonal conversions, which isn't permanent) isn't what people are talking about when they say 'conversion', you are being dishonest.
Saying "social and hormonal conversions, which comprise almost every pre-adult conversion, are non-permanent treatments that allow children time to decide whether they want to have surgery while easing the anxiety and depression that children with gender dysphoria experience" is an honest statement about pre-adult trans care in America.
Anything that uses the words 'genital mutilation' or pretends surgery is common is a dishonest statement about pre-adult trans care in America.
"Your dishonesty is in full display"
Really? Where? I advocate for parents, their child, and their doctors being the ones making decisions about the medical care of trans kids, not strangers and politicians. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not trans and I don't have a trans kid.
My position is that I don't support politicians infringing on personal medical decisions. If no trans kids ever had surgery again I wouldn't care, as long as that was the decision of the patient, their parents, and their medical team.
My opposition is to strangers with no knowledge making medical decisions for people they don't know. Those are decisions that people get to make for themselves.
And now the monkey-asses are trying to make it mandatory for teachers to out any kids that might be gay, trans or otherwise gender non-conforming to their parents. If a kid isn't ready to come out to their parents, there might just be a reason. Even if the parents don't abuse them or throw them out of the house, it's still likely to cause a whole lot of entirely avoidable stress and tension.
"The huge majority of Floridian parents think this. We wonder, why is it that your people in New York, say, don’t want this?"
Probably because New Yorkers have a vastly superior education to Floridians, have more earning potential, and are more successful. There's a reason that the states that push cultural conservative ideology are among the poorest and least economically successful states in the country. Hell, California even kicks the ass of most agricultural states in output, profits, and quality of produce.
Fighting a culture war at the expense of your children and their future is crappy parenting, but makes parents feel righteous. It's a terrible trade-off for the kids.
Do you ever engage in debates genuinely, or is it always invective and superficial talking points?
The truth hurts.
Those are all genuine, accurate, and relevant points. Look at the education rankings. Southeastern states dominate the bottom. Look at economic activity. Blue states dominate the top.
The reason New Yorkers don't want to emulate Florida is because their children are better educated, their economies are stronger and more diverse, and they are more competitive in almost every segment of civic life.
Griffin3 seems to believe that New York should want to emulate Florida. Why, when Florida (and culturally conservative states in general) is worse in almost every category?
Wait, you do know that Florida ranks higher than New York for both pre K through 12 and higher education, right? And you do know that Florida is seeing the greatest increase in immigration out of all states, right? And you know New York has been seeing some of the highest out-migrations of any state, right?
“Wait, you do know that Florida ranks higher than New York for both pre K through 12 and higher education, right?”
Actually, it does not. It lags in testing scores, graduation rates, four year degrees, and post-graduation employment. Florida has a terrible state college system, with the University of Florida being the only bright light in a dark room.
“And you do know that Florida is seeing the greatest increase in immigration out of all states, right?”
Retirees moving to warm states isn’t anything new. Young professionals moving to Florida isn’t so hot, probably because their economy isn’t very diverse compared to the West Coast and the Northeast. If you wanted to point to a Southern state that is drawing in young professionals with a broad-based economy, Texas is the example to use.
“And you know New York has been seeing some of the highest out-migrations of any state, right?”
Sure. It’s a cold weather state that has citizens who have made a good enough living that they can afford the (relative to New York) cheap real estate prices in Florida. Arizona is experiencing the same thing with people from Washington, Oregon, and Northern California.
Until Florida has an economy that grows beyond their two dominant dimensions of tourism and agriculture, their incoming residents will be retirees and their outgoing people will be young professionals.
My partner’s sister and her husband just left Orlando and moved to PA. He had reached the highest level he could and could only advance his career if he left Florida. She works in hospitality, but she also had better opportunities outside Florida. Which is crazy, since being a hospitality revenue manager in Orlando with a decade of experience is as close to being unemployment-proof as it gets. Both are in their mid 30s.
I have two friends in their late 40s who moved down to Jupiter from New Jersey because her mother (who retired to Florida) has had some health challenges. She is a nurse, so maybe the fact that she got incentive pay that gave her a 40% raise over her New Jersey salary was because everyone needs nurses, especially experienced OB nurses. But apparently a lot of Florida hospitals are having trouble recruiting out-of-state medical professionals. They are paying a premium to entice them.
Sure, that’s just two couples I know. The ones leaving Florida did it because their opportunities were limited there and the ones moving in benefitted from the fact that Florida has to incentive professionals to work there. They would have moved there anyway because her mom is sick, but since the hospital didn’t know that she benefitted from their desperation.
I’m sure there are advantages to living in Florida, but education and employment opportunities aren’t two of them.
tl;ldr. Florida is actually ranked 4th overall in this country for education and its economy is the 4th biggest economy in the US behind California, Texas, and New York. And its economy is growing and not just because of old folks.
Sorry, you’re trying too hard to fulfill what is quite clearly a tribal narrative and basically gaslighting at this point.
I suggest you ditch the groupthink and start thinking for yourself.
I think you need to find a better source for your information.
I will admit that their ranking is higher than I thought. They are 21st. I'll admit, their median income is lower than I expected, but given the lack of diversity in their economy (dominated by tourism and agriculture, which have a lot of lower-income workers) I guess it makes sense.
The advantage to this link is they detail their methodology. If you have a source, does it also list their methodology?
https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-educated-states/31075
Since you don't like detailed information, here are some bullets. I can only put one link in each post, so there will be multiple posts.
Florida's median income: 36th
https://wallethub.com/edu/e/most-educated-states/31075
While Florida's gross GDP is fourth, its per-capita GDP is 41st.
If you want to understand why per-capita GDP is important, it is explained in the link.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/248063/per-capita-us-real-gross-domestic-product-gdp-by-state/
Florida's poverty rate: 20th highest
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/poverty-rate-by-state
Florida's median age is 5th oldest.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-age-by-state
Over 20% of Florida's pooulation is over 65.
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/elderly-population-by-state.html
So to recap, Florida has the largest percentage of senior citizens in the country (50 states plus DC). It ranks poorly in poverty rate (20th highest), median income (36th highest), per-capita GDP (41st highest), and median age (5th highest).
Its education is 21st, so it squeaks into the top half by 5 slots, but given the other economic indicators it seems that higher income jobs (the benefit derived from a better-than-average education) aren't available in-state. So either those who have the education are getting paid less than their education is worth or young people are leaving the state for better employment opportunities and the influx is tilted heavily towards senior citizens.
And as I pointed out, the states that use cultural conservative policies in their education systems dominate the worst schools in the country. Mississippi may not teach sex ed, but that doesn't help them teach the "basic traditional" subjects well. So the theory that all these newfangled topics prevent a good education are firmly refuted by the fact that those who oppose such things have terrible education systems.
Check out the reading and math at grade levels for the big cities in New York. I grew up near Syracuse and along with Buffalo and Rochester, the % at grade level is a joke. Rochester just passed a $1B annual school budget for 20K kids. The lowest number of kids in the district since 1920! And the % of kids at grade level in math is 33%! Please..New York isn't so great. Raised my kids in Dallas (Plano) and the district was measurably better
I thought this was interesting:
“Texas mom Laura Maria Gruber always considered herself a “woke” liberal in favor of progressive causes, even sending her young daughter to a charter school that celebrates “diversity, equity and inclusion,” according to the school’s web site.
But she never thought her 13-year-old would be asked to play a “seducing hooker” in a bizarre classroom game.”
https://nypost.com/2023/03/18/texas-mom-says-her-daughter-played-seducing-hooker-during-school-game/
”Dear ‘Woke Penthouse, my 13 year old daughter never used to believe your letters until her recent experience”.
"Just sounds like a school training a future citizen how to exercise their full agency for their future career in business to me." - ENB
Also, unless whomever came up with "Bear, Hunter, Hooker", the adult version of 'Paper, Rock, Scissors', has been married for 20-30 yrs. or whatever, they're really struggling in their personal life.
Because if they don't get married they are "struggling in their personal life"?
Marriage isn't the goal. It isn't even particularly important outside of the financial and legal benefits it provides.
A long, fulfilling, trusting relationship is exactly the same whether the two people are married or not.
You fail to understand that an individual who has been married for decades is one who's been successful at keeping the marriage intact. It's much more difficult than you think. In these days that's not very common and we should commend couples who accomplish this.
As mad.casual states, whoever came up with the game reeks of deprivation if he/she hasn't done that.
"an individual who has been married for decades is one who’s been successful at keeping the marriage intact."
I've been with the same woman for almost 24 years. I've never been married. So I've been successful at keeping my relationship intact. Marriage isn't relevant to that success. Short of providing financial and legal benefits, marriage isn't inherently beneficial at all.
Also, I would point out that plenty of divorces happen to people who are successful at maintaining follow-on relationships. Getting married to the wrong person doesn't say anything about the people involved. It certainly doesn't indicate that "they’re really struggling in their personal life.".
Marriage isn't something to be commended, nor something to be decried. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing.
“ Many media outlets accepted the shorthand description, while some conservatives objected to the label and accused the media of misleading people. ”
Many media outlets are hyperpartisan propaganda outfits. In fact, anyone who calls it that ridiculous shorthand IS misleading people. You know, since it bans straight teachers from discussing the their sex lives with their students.
Mr./Mrs. Garrison wasn’t a fucking role model Shackford. Jesus H Science.
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If a teacher decided to discuss Obergefell vs. Hodges in a 12th grade American History class, could he be fired in Florida for that reason? That would definitely be a discussion mentioning sexual orientation.
If it was in the context of civil rights, I think that would be fine. I don't think that's pushing identity politics.
I agree with you that a reasonable person would think that was fine. I disagree with you that the people enforcing this law will all be reasonable people, or that parents who use this law as the basis for a lawsuit will all be reasonable.
Your criticisms of reasonable people mean nothing. I've seen what you celebrate as reasonable.
Since they're being very cagey about the rules, it's hard to know. I can't help but suspect this is a very deliberate attempt to create a chilling effect. If violating some ill-defined rule could potentially cost you your job, better to play it safe. The law was written in a way that leaves schools and teachers vulnerable to pressure from the least reasonable members of their communities. Being the nasty, cynical type that I am, I suspect that was deliberate. But even if it wasn't, that doesn't change the facts.
Not by the letter of the law as I’ve read it.
Depends on the context, an instructor spending time discussing it in math or chemistry class probably should be fired.
What are you talking about?
Bringing up ideology in unrelated classes suggests that the ideology was brought up to promote it. That's not hard to understand.
But it isn't ideology to mention things like sexual orientation when discussing mathematicians. Much like it isn't ideology to mention gender when discussing the women who did a lot of the heavy lifting for the space program, but weren't recognized publicly.
Making the assumption that any mention of sexual orientation or gender is ideological is pretty blatantly ideological.
Despite Scott's retardation, pretty clearly not according to the law. You'll note the quote Scott provided uses the word 'instruct', not 'discuss'. As Scott perpetually fails to recognize, 'discuss' only applies to primary students and, even then, ACCORDING TO THE FUCKING NAME AND EXPLICIT INTENT OF THE LAW is still allowed so long as parents are aware.
You know how C.J. Carimella is begging for FOIA requests? Scott is overtly calling for more and more permissible undisclosed and undocumented discussions between state actors and minors behind closed doors.
Determining what is taught in school is called curriculum, not censorship you stupid, lying fuck. Shackleford is an establishment progressive cuck.
And Shackleford, unless I misremember, has been taking the NYC schools to task, for years, because they are jacking with the rules and forcing low quality education on his own children. Does he see Florida taking steps to fix the education system, and resent us because his kids still have to be indoctrinated in the made up genders?
Are you thinking of Matt Welch?
I think Shackford lives in Barstow, CA.
Shackford's gay (and a groomer, possibly molester).
So probably not he/him.
That's Welch you're thinking of. He is also an idiot who ignores that he supports the people who inconvenience him and mess with his kids.
The language of HB 1557 concerns itself with any “discussion” in a public school, not just with curriculum.
Would you consider it a discussion on race if the teacher mentioned or acknowledged that George Washington Carver, Booker T Washington, Harriet Tubman or MLK were African American?
Legitimate question, as I wouldn’t consider that a “discussion” so much as acknowledging reality.
So.... Directing Commie-Education without Leftard mandated indoctrination is "censorship" huh?? What about all those school prayers? I guess that was "censorship" too huh?
The double-standards of all leftards never ceases.
Maybe it's just time to END Commie-Education all together.
What moron thinks it requires Gov ---> GUNS to teach kids anyways?
Clearly whatever education you received failed you.
JFC- imagine being the bottom of the barrel. Good luck to you.
Apparently the *earning* free-people pay me to be a brilliant asset to society is doing quite well. Thanks for asking.
Now; Do tell us all how successful those Liberal LGBT, Racist, Sexist studies are doing *earning* a living BESIDES how to identity-affiliate and create gangs that use Gov-Guns to ROB everyone's *earned* bank...
You don't have to imagine, which is good, because you're a very low wattage thinker.
Shitlunches, you are an earwig amongst gods here. Truly mongrel filth. Don’t ever think, even for a second, that your education and cognition are better of anyone here. With the possible exceptions of Sarc, Groomer Jeffy, Mike Liarson, Tony, and your other fellow travelers, you are an inferior being. Now slither away. Adults are talking here.
Not sure conflating curriculum for censorship, as you're doing, provides much of a leg to stand on for being superior to others.
Give it a rest with the indoctrination bullshit. This is an attempt to forbid any discussion, in hopes that the subject will magically disappear if you don't talk about it. So, yeah, that's censorship. As for mandatory school prayers, that was indoctrination. It was also arguably censorship for anyone who didn't believe in the official state cult.
So Scott is openly advocating for inappropriate sexual discussions and actions between adults and children. And he pretends to have no clue why people see him and advocates like him as groomers and pedos.
What's funny is you guys rail about "groomers" and "pedos" yet do NOTHING about the church who has been doing it for decades.
Your blatant hypocrisy is very easy to see.
Swing and a miss champ.
32 balls on the field and he chooses to swing at the one that's in the catcher's glove after it gets there.
CPD, decade over decade, gets thousands of reports of various sexual assaults against staff and, decade over decade, shuffles staff around in a manner that would get The Church, or any church, sued into whatever hereafter they do or don't observe.
And it seems to be much harder to sue a school than to sue a church.
You misspelled ’chump’.
This is my favorite retarded line coming from the left on this one.
And the response is always the same:
When it happened with the church, the right didnt come out and say "THIS IS GOOD AND IF YOU HATE IT YOU ARE A BIGOT", they said, "ya thats terrible and needs to stop"
Jesus dude, arguing with you is as easy as pushing over a cripple. Your own premise shits on your argument before anyone else gets a chance
It's because he's retarded. A mental battle with him truly *is* the equivalent of physically pushing over a cripple.
"they said, “ya thats terrible and needs to stop”"
Not in any obvious way. Saying it's bad and then doing nothing is useless.
The Catholic Church ran an organized, international pedophile ring that aided offenders in escaping prosecution, hid crimes from law enforcement and the new parishes they moved pedophile priests to, spent millions to defend against valid lawsuits (but not to pay judgements), intimidates, manipulates, and coerces victims to not report sexual assaults, interferes with investigations, and through it all claims to be moral. If you oppose sexual grooming, organized pedophilia, and child rapusts escaping justice, you should condemn the Catholic Church.
Yes..as a catholic, the church should have gutted the groomers and pedos decades ago. Many priests are gay and unfortunately their sexual outlet besides other priest were alter boys. Condemn the church by all means.
"Many priests are gay"
Pedophilia and homosexuality aren't related. Much like pedophilia and heterosexuality aren't related when the victim is of the opposite sex.
Gay priests have sex with adult men. Straight priests have sex with adult women. Pedophile priests have sex with children. The Church only protected and enabled the pedophiles.
"Condemn the church by all means."
I do condemn the church for their morally indefensible crimes against children and find them to have no moral credibility.
But as someone whose mother takes great comfort and solace from her Catholic faith, I know there are aspects of Catholicism (and religion in general) that are admirable.
Culturally conservative organizations, not just religions, have repeatedly failed moral tests on sexual predation and protecting victims.
That is why organizations like the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts claiming a superior moral sense (or a dependable moral compass at all) is laughable. But it doesn't mean that the non-moral elements of those groups aren't laudable or beneficial.
And just who, in the Bizarro World of your mind, is celebrating abuse? Also, is ignoring abuse, covering it up, or trying to blame the victims really all that much better?
It's no wonder you think you're winning, since you're flailing away at a strawman.
My family has been Lutheran almost since Luther got irate and nailed the 95 thesis to the fucking door. So, we did something to that church a long fucking time ago. Or are you so stupid you think all Christians are Catholics?
The priest scandal, and how the church handled it, is a big reason I left Catholicism.
My father was raped by a priest who reportedly was moved 8 times and raped dozens of boys. It haunted him for his entire life.
To those who accuse teachers of being "groomers" but dismiss the Boy Scouts, Southern Baptists, Catholics, and other cultural conservative organizations that hide and enable pedophiles:
Tell the parents of the boys and girls that serial rapists violated under the Church’s protection that individual criminals are worse than an organized conspiracy to protect pedophiles. Tell people that individual teachers who are turned in to authorities by their co-workers and prosecuted for their individual, non-organized rapes are groomers, but the Church isn’t. See how much they believe you.
Sorry to hear that happened to your dad.
Thank you.
It broke my heart to see the look in his eyes when another story came out. He never found the courage to tell anyone else and my father wasn't a cowardly man. Things like that never truly go away, even if you spend 70+ years trying.
So many people left Hitler's church it's a wonder there's anyone left in it. Jew-baiting protestants in he US have also fallen by over a third since plutonium bombs were demonstrated. Ya gotta wonder why...
Hitler was only a nominal Catholic and was in secret hostile to Christianity. It's disingenuous of you to refer to the Catholic Church as "Hitler's church".
Of course, statistics show that abuse is no more like to occur within churches than in other organizations like schools, government programs, etc. You are being disingenuous here as well.
Go fuck your self Hank.
"What’s funny is you guys rail about “groomers” and “pedos” yet do NOTHING about the church who has been doing it for decades.
Your blatant hypocrisy is very easy to see."
1) Has been discussed. Ad infinitum.
2) Schools have always had a significantly larger problem with that and an equally abysmal record of advising parents of it.
"1) Has been discussed. Ad infinitum."
And yet nothing has changed. If there were consequences, the Church would be forced to stop acting immorally and start behaving better. But there aren't, so they haven't.
"2) Schools have always had a significantly larger problem with that and an equally abysmal record of advising parents of it.'
When you compare the number of rapes among the 3 million+ teachers to the 37,000 priests, there are more. That's because math is real.
But there is not an organized, centralized, national effort on behalf of techers to hide predators from prosecution, move repeat offenders around the country, interfere with investigations, and dissuade victims from reporting their rapes to police. There was (and still is) that sort of effort by yhe Catholic Church (and the Boy Scouts and the Southern Baptists, and the LDS, and ...).
If you truly oppose pedophilia, work against the organizations who apologize for, defend, and enable them. Don't mislabel and demonize teachers.
"And yet nothing has changed. If there were consequences, the Church would be forced to stop acting immorally and start behaving better. But there aren’t, so they haven’t."
Except they have.
And as others pointed out, Christians were not applauding the actions and demanding you support them or else you're a bigot and a homophobe.
"But there is not an organized, centralized, national effort on behalf of techers to hide predators from prosecution"
Only because schools are local interests. And they work hard to protect teachers who abuse kids. Have done so for many, many years. NYC having "rubber rooms" to keep the teachers who cannot be trusted around children is not a new thing.
"move repeat offenders around the country"
They move them around to different schools in the district. Also been happening for many years.
"interfere with investigations, and dissuade victims from reporting their rapes to police."
I love that you believe government institutions do not do that sort of thing.
"There was (and still is) that sort of effort by yhe Catholic Church (and the Boy Scouts and the Southern Baptists, and the LDS, and …)."
Not really. And, again, nobody is applauding it. Schools grooming? Not so much.
"If you truly oppose pedophilia, work against the organizations who apologize for, defend, and enable them. Don’t mislabel and demonize teachers."
If you cared about it, you would not demand nobody look at a group who has a major problem because they are more politically acceptable to you than others.
Churches had problems and got sued heavily for it.
"Except they have."
Funny, I think the people that are being gjven the runaround and refusals to pay legal damages would say they haven't taken any accountability or admitted any wrongdoing. They have not made the accused priests avalable for prosecution. They haven't allowed most of the rapists to be brought to trial. Nothing has changed.
And unless you think that the rapist priests suddenly realized they were doing something wrong and stopped raping kids, they are still covering things up.
They certainly deserve no trust or belief from the populations they victimized for scores, if not hundreds, of years. They have no moral authority whatsoever. They have no moral compass at all.
"And as others pointed out, Christians were not applauding the actions and demanding you support them or else you’re a bigot and a homophobe."
Nor is anyone else. Teachers , as a group, aren't groomers. Talking about gay and trans people isn't grooming. If you claim they are (or that it is) you are almost certainly a bigot and homophobe. You certainly aren't an honest person.
Again, if you want to see what organized grooming, child predation, and pedophilia looks like, see the Catholic Church.
"Only because schools are local interests."
Actually, it's because pedophile teachers are individual criminals, not part of an organized campaign to groom children for sexual exploitation. And talking about gays and trans people isn't grooming by any reasonable definition.
"And they work hard to protect teachers who abuse kids. Have done so for many, many years."
Not true.
"NYC having “rubber rooms” to keep the teachers who cannot be trusted around children is not a new thing."
Those rooms are for teachers who cannot be in a classroom, but haven't been (or can't be) fired. There was literally a documentary about them and it wasn't about pedophilia. It's about the problems that teacher's unions create. They are a disgrace, but they aren't full of pedophiles.
"They move them around to different schools in the district. Also been happening for many years."
Not true.
"I love that you believe government institutions do not do that sort of thing."
I do, but I could be wrong. Do you have evidence that institutionalized protection of pedophiles is common practice in public schools. To see what that looks like, see the Catholic Church.
"Not really. And, again, nobody is applauding it. Schools grooming? Not so much."
Yes, actually. Actively. Presently. And unabashedly.
Since schools don't groom kids for sexual exploitation, they aren't doing any such thing. And we know what it looks like from the Catholic Church, the Boy Scouts, the Mormons, the Southern Baptists, etc.
Unless you want to present some earthshattering news that no one has ever seen about the organized grooming efforts of America's teachers. ... yeah, I thought not.
"If you cared about it, you would not demand nobody look at a group who has a major problem because they are more politically acceptable to you than others."
I care about actual pedophilia. I think pedophiles should be prosecuted (even the priests and ministers). I think there should be no statute of limitations for child rapists. I think that pedophiles are probably the worst people on Earth. Child rape, to me, is worse than murder. I mean that literally.
When a bunch of cultural conservatives minimize grooming and pedophilia by accusing a massive group of millions of people of being groomers with no evidence, it should infuriate everyone who actually cares about the evil of pedophilia.
Grooming is a specific behavior done for a specific reason by a specific person. The things that people like you call "grooming" are completely unrelated to what grooming actually is.
You are helping pedophiles by minimizing grooming, which is a serious, intentional, purposeful act by a pedophile, not a policy difference.
"Churches had problems and got sued heavily for it."
They still do and they have avoided paying the judgements against them with legal trickery and strategic bankruptcies. Tbey have taken no accountability.
Until the Catholic Church can create a partnership with survivors that doesn't collapse through tbeir unwillingness to take responsibility and compensate the victims, they're still the largest international pedophile ring in history.
The thing about forgiveness is you can't receive it unless you truly repent. That hasn't happened yet. It probably never will.
You didn't refute any of his arguments. You fail to see that Christians in general are fast to point out and call against abuse that occurs even within their ranks. Media outlets are fast to point out any abuse by Catholic priests even if they're not totally honest with the narrative they bring forth.
This is different from teachers, public officials, celebrities and drag queens that are promoting child sexuality and teaching it in schools while hiding it from parents, and the media outlets that defend them, including the article by Scott right above. This isn't hard to see.
It is dishonest of you to single out Christian churches for this, especially when again, statistics show they abuse is no more likely to occur there than by schools and other public organizations. Repent of your wrongs here.
"You fail to see that Christians in general are fast to point out and call against abuse that occurs even within their ranks."
Except they aren't. Look at Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, and the list goes on.
I have refuted his points. I gave specific examples of the organized protection of pedophiles that cultural conservative (not just religious) organizations engaged in. His claim of "not any more" has no evidence, but the continued stonewalling by the guilty organizations shows that it hasn't.
"they’re not totally honest with the narrative they bring forth."
Oh, that's a conspiracy, too? Please.
"This is different from teachers, public officials, celebrities and drag queens that are promoting child sexuality"
I gave evidence to support my position. Would you care to attempt the same thing? Because that is a huge allegation against millions of people. Care to show their organized efforts to "promote child sexuality" and "teach it in schools"?
Some specificity would be nice, rather than unsupported polemic.
"It is dishonest of you to single out Christian churches"
I didn't. They did it to themselves. They behaved in a certain way and got caught. With the documents to prove it. And I didn't single out Christian churches. The Boy Scouts behaved the same way.
Funny how a similar effort has bever been discovered among teachers.
"statistics show they abuse is no more likely to occur there than by schools and other public organizations."
I agree that there isn't a greater likelihood that a priest is a pedophile than any other citizen.
But the Catholic Church hid pedophile priests, moved them around to unsuspecting parishes without letting anyone know they were pedophiles, failed to prevent them from interacting with children (allowing for multiple victims for each pedophile), dissuaded victims from reporting the abuse to authorities (often using their religious faith against them), moved priests out of the jurisdiction (or even the country) to avoid prosecution, denied (as in lied about) their organized efforts to help pedophile priests avoid justice, prevented judgements against them from being paid through various legal loopholes (like having parishes who lost declare bankruptcy and denying the Church has to pay ... it goes on and on. This is all documented. The Catholic Church ran (or runs, since they are still protecting pedophile priests) an international pedophile ring. There is no rational dispute, given the overwhelming evidence and their continuing obstruction of justice for the thousands (literally) of victims whose lives they helped damage or destroy.
"Repent of your wrongs here."
Nothing that I've said is wrong. A simple Google search will get you massive traunches of supporting evidence for every point I've made.
“Inappropriate” has a specific meaning. The article talks about ways in which it would, in fact, be an appropriate topic in a high school setting. And contrasts that with the bills supporters who focused on it being inappropriate for K-3rd grades. The fact is, its unavoidable in high school because students WILL discuss this; some students WILL be gay or transgender and the teachers are going to have to deal with it one way or another. Unlike all the old conservative half-wit bigots in these comments; kids don’t strawman every gay person into a criminal pedophile groomer. They just call their gay, lesbian or whatever peers ‘friends.’ And if ‘every parent in Florida hates it’ tough fucking shit. They will just alienate themselves from their own kids’ generation even more.
And if ‘every parent in Florida hates it’ tough fucking shit.
Democracy!
Right down your throat as hard as his groomer self can shove it. Wait, did Kirkland get a sock?
Here is how the teacher should handle it:
'Sit down, shut up, we're discussing two column proofs today, your discussion isn't relevant to what I am teaching'. That's what happened when I went to school and we brought up subjects that weren't related to what the teacher was teaching. How fucking hard is that? Do your fucking job. If someone is being bullied, stop the bully for being a bully, no need to discuss gender ideology. If someone is being disruptive, discipline them. Again, no need to discuss what their gender is. Teacher's are there to teach. Obviously yours failed.
"The fact is, its unavoidable in high school because students WILL discuss this; some students WILL be gay or transgender and the teachers are going to have to deal with it one way or another."
The dumbest students on any college campus (has anybody met an intelligent education major? Yeah, me neither) are in poor position to intellectually discuss much of anything with high school students.
The way you handle it is "Talk to your parents" or "talk to a mental health professional".
"Unlike all the old conservative half-wit bigots in these comments; kids don’t strawman every gay person into a criminal pedophile groomer."
Yeah, kinda what grooming is for, ain't it?
"Kids do not see them as groomers" is a laughably terrible take here.
"They just call their gay, lesbian or whatever peers ‘friends.’ And if ‘every parent in Florida hates it’ tough fucking shit. They will just alienate themselves from their own kids’ generation even more."
Let me guess, you think parents should be their kids "friend" primarily, don't you?
"So Scott is openly advocating for inappropriate sexual discussions and actions between adults and children."
No, he isn't.
Yes, he is. He opposed DeSantis's efforts to prevent teachers from discussing sexuality with children. No one should want a teacher to promote an ideology to children that makes sexuality a central part of their lives. Yet you seem completely okay with teachers doing that. That's wrong.
"He opposed DeSantis’s efforts to prevent teachers from discussing sexuality with children."
That's not what the law does it orevents discussing "sexual orientation or gender identity". Neither are sexual subjects.
"No one should want a teacher to promote an ideology to children that makes sexuality a central part of their lives."
Not a single curricula in Florida has ever done this. Not one.
"Yet you seem completely okay with teachers doing that."
No, I'm not. I've never advocated any such thing. I am advocating keeping politicians out of micromanaging topics based on their own political advantage in doing so.
"That's wrong"
Don't Say Gay? I agree completely.
Public school teachers need to talk to young teenagers about sex and gender behind the parents' backs why exactly?
There is no good answer to that question.
"Public school teachers need to talk to young teenagers about sex and gender behind the parents’ backs why exactly?"
It isn't behind their backs. No one is hiding the fact that these thijhs are discussed in classes. It isn't some nefarious conspiracy against parents. It's just teaching about the world we live in.
I jnderstand you and your fellow travelers prefer ignorance, but most people aren't that short-sighted.
"It isn’t behind their backs."
It very much is.
"No one is hiding the fact that these thijhs are discussed in classes."
Yes, they are.
" It isn’t some nefarious conspiracy against parents. It’s just teaching about the world we live in."
It is one and it is not teaching.
"I jnderstand you and your fellow travelers prefer ignorance, but most people aren’t that short-sighted."
That you, of all people, are calling others ignorant is high comedy.
"It very much is."
Sure. Like the Catholic Church isn't a ring of pedophiles.
"Yes, they are."
Not unless "hiding" is synonymous with "not doing anything to hide".
"It is one and it is not teaching"
Yes, it's a conspiracy. And teaching is a conspiracy. Let's be honest, everything's a conspiracy and they're all in on it.
"That you, of all people, are calling others ignorant is high comedy."
Preferring a situation in which children are intentionally deprived of knowledge because you don't like it is fostering ignorance.
Kids aren't robots or sponges. They don't just take in the information they're given and believe it all. Kids, especially teenagers, can think for themselves and form their own conclusions.
You aren't helping them by projecting your insecurities onto them. You are taking away a chance for them to come to the same conclusion that you did, probably because you are afraid they might not.
Advocating ignorance and calling it education is insane.
"Sure. Like the Catholic Church isn’t a ring of pedophiles."
The ENTIRE Church? Color me a bit skeptical there without some hardcore proof of such claims.
"Not unless “hiding” is synonymous with “not doing anything to hide”."
Explains all of the stories of schools "helping" kids "transition" behind their parents backs without even mentioning it to them. Because it was not being hidden from the people ACTUALLY responsible for the child
"es, it’s a conspiracy. And teaching is a conspiracy. Let’s be honest, everything’s a conspiracy and they’re all in on it."
Wow, smarmy asshole seems like your native tongue.
"Preferring a situation in which children are intentionally deprived of knowledge because you don’t like it is fostering ignorance."
So, after they go over every address Walt Whitman ever lived at, every pet he ever had, his favorite hobby, every meal he ate everyday for his entire life ("Teacher, did he like his eggs scrambled? Sunny side up? STOP HOLDING OUT ON US!!!")...THEN and only then will they be able to teach his literature. Because the trivial minutiae is the most important part. Really, it is.
"Kids aren’t robots or sponges. They don’t just take in the information they’re given and believe it all. Kids, especially teenagers, can think for themselves and form their own conclusions."
Man, you're adorable when you do not know what you're talking about. Few people are more easily programmed than a teenager. Which is why climate change is a "dire concern" for them and nobody else. It is why they believe a man can become a woman if he wants it bad enough.
Because they lack logic and the ability to rationally think things out.
"You aren’t helping them by projecting your insecurities onto them. You are taking away a chance for them to come to the same conclusion that you did, probably because you are afraid they might not.
Advocating ignorance and calling it education is insane."
Confusing trivia for knowledge is only something unspeakably shallow thinkers do.
"The ENTIRE Church?"
Leaders at every single level from parishes to the Vatican have been shown to be involved. It was an organized effort. It's still happening.
"Explains all of the stories of schools “helping” kids “transition” behind their parents backs without even mentioning it to them."
Not outing a gay or trand student to their parents isn't "helping kids transition. If the kid is afraid to tell their parents, why should a school do it?
"Wow, smarmy asshole seems like your native tongue."
Read your unfounded misrepresentation that teachers who refuse to betray a student who fears telling their parents that they are trans as "helping kids transition" and tell me that isn't an accusation of a conspiracy.
"So, after they go over every address Walt Whitman ever lived at, every pet he ever had, his favorite hobby, every meal he ate everyday for his entire life (“Teacher, did he like his eggs scrambled? Sunny side up? STOP HOLDING OUT ON US!!!”)…THEN and only then will they be able to teach his literature. Because the trivial minutiae is the most important part. Really, it is."
Why would they fo that? Those things are irrelevant to his poetry. His sexual orientation, however, isn't "trivial". Pretending it is is dishonest and inaccurate.
"Few people are more easily programmed than a teenager."
I've worked with literally hundreds of teenagers in my professional life. You are an idiot if you think they are incapable of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions.
"Which is why climate change is a “dire concern” for them and nobody else."
Nobody else, eh? You're cute when you say things that are prima facie falsehoods. But you do you.
"It is why they believe a man can become a woman if he wants it bad enough."
No, a man can become a trans woman. It's like you either stupid and can't understand or a ideologue and won't understand. I don't think you're stupid.
"Confusing trivia for knowledge is only something unspeakably shallow thinkers do."
Confusing things that exist in the world for things that you desperately wish didn't exist is something only unspeakably fanatical people do. Or people experiencing a dissociative episode.
There's nothing insecure about not teaching ideology to students. It doesn't belong in the classroom, Nelson.
Everything about cultural conservatives and their desire to legislate their beliefs screams insecurity.
When you have to pass laws to force people, you have given up on persuasion. Everyone, including you, knows you can't persuade anyone who isn't already on your side.
If a child asks "why does so and so have two dads to the teacher", not that this occurs in any numbers the teacher's reply should be "ask your parents." If a child asks "why did debbie's parents get divorced" should the teacher explain how marriages sometimes don't work out or whatnot or rather "ask your parents." Some topics are not for public schools. I don't know why you have such a hard time with that. "why is jimmy dressing as a girl," again the proper answer is "ask your parents."
One take-away is that now is a good time to delete from libertarian platforms all 1980s calls for child molesting and the like. Pragmatically, even if some kids like molestation and such, they can't vote. Their angry moms not only can but do vote. Resetting to the original platform can GAIN us women voters alienated these past 40-odd years.
Plenty of libertarians today oppose any efforts of child molestation. The biggest advocates come from the left. You are not being honest with your narrative.
Again:
https://twitter.com/grossmanhannah/status/1638582240429973515?t=ibdJ_QDe1KuW3jz3xpQ0og&s=19
Fox News Digital reviewed Yale’s tightly-guarded and emotionally-invasive @rulerapproach K-12 curriculum, which has been accused of “social engineering” millions of kids into raging activists.
Used on millions of children at 4,500 schools, Yale asks teachers to cultivate rage among their students by using emotional persuasion.
The lessons probed deeply and, oftentimes intrusively, into the student’s emotions, personal relationships, traumas, beliefs and triggers.
“[E]mploy strategies to nudge your students towards feeling red when you are preparing to discuss topics such as injustice. To shift your students into the red, consider showing them controversial photographs or news headlines,” it said.
Another section focused on aiding students to recognize societal rules, and taught them those can be defied. “Make sure to explain that even though we call these patters ‘rules,’ we do not need to follow them.”
The curriculum had students enact emotionally distressing scenarios, including those relating to microaggressions.
“Students should go beyond explaining… and actually practice it with their facial expressions, vocal tones and body language.”
The curriculum said kids should be burdened to feel responsible for the emotional safety of others.
“It’s important to note that activation may be triggering to some students. Teachers should be aware of the potential effects… on students with traumatic backgrounds.”
The exercise to teach students an emotional lesson included “focused breaths,” which is “what puts our lizard brain… to sleep.”
The Dhillon Law Group — @pnjaban has argued in a complaint to one of @YaleMed’s clients, Newport-Mesa, that the curriculum is essentially mental health counseling run by unlicensed practitioners — teachers.
The curriculum is based on what is known as social and emotional learning (SEL), a multi-billion-dollar industry in K-12 education which claims to develop students’ self-awareness, self-control and interpersonal skills.
“When all of the answers to these questions get decided by… a specific political agenda, SEL becomes less about character education and more about ‘people fixing’ to create… citizens… influenced to think… through the indoctrination techniques,” said SEL critic @iamlisalogan.
Yale and its Center for Emotional Intelligence Program Director @marcbrackett did not respond to a request for comment.
[Links]
Again:
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1638671281368477698?t=OGGINAfQYeIJSncuQUfk7A&s=19
One of the most important things I ever read is from a book about “Global Citizenship Education and Education for Sustainable Development.”
On what rights “global citizens” have, it says, “Global citizenship is not as concerned with rights as it is with responsibilities.”
“Global citizenship” responsibilities begin with having critical consciousness (being Woke) and proceed into full commitment to the 17 Sustainable Development Goals of the United Nations Agenda 2030. This isn’t speculation on my part. It’s explicit. It’s defined that way.
When Social-Emotional Learning under CASEL lists “responsible decision-making” as a competency area, and UNESCO explains SEL is for SDGs and global citizenship education, we can understand that to mean SEL is for brainwashing kids into global citizenship critical consciousness.
Maybe you’re like, yeah right James! This is a huge push. Big target to hit this year is exposing and destroying the trustworthiness of this agenda to millions more people.
[Link]
And yes, they really say that about no rights, just responsibilities to the global Regime and its goals.
[Link]
And yes, UNESCO really is pushing SEL for SDGs because SEL allows them to overcome the stress and cognitive dissonance caused by brainwashing kids.
[Link]
And yes this is already moving into education for real, not just in the imaginations of demons posing as bureaucrats.
[Link]
this is absolutely horrifying
He needs to add quotes to "critical consciousness" the way he quotes "global citizens" and "responsible decision-making". He's right to say "being Woke" in parenthesis, but consciousness is awareness of the world around you and critical means finding fault with it. Both Woke and Global Citizenship require you not just to reject reality or awareness of it around you, but to accept an alternate/false perception. Someone who rejects an objective perception of reality in favor of a fantastic one isn't being critically conscious, they're being a true believer in whatever (pseudo-) religious view they're adopting. Someone who rejects "All humans die and never come back." in favor of "At least one human died and came back, Jesus Christ." isn't critically conscious, they're Christian. If you're talking about their critical consciousness, you would put it in quotes.
I believe it's an explicitly Marxist term, and for some reason has become popular at the moment among the anti-woke crowd, but I agree it should be in quotes.
I prefer to just call them and their perspective that "rejects an objective perception of reality in favor of a fantastic one" what it is: psychotic.
Fascists doing fascist things? How surprising.
Bunch of them up in here defending it too so...
Still don’t know what a fascist is? Sad.
But not surprising.
It's Christian Socialism: Plank 24: We demand freedom for all religious denominations within the State as long as they do not endanger the State or violate the ethical and moral feelings of the Germanic race.
The party itself subscribes to a positive Christianity without binding itself to a specific denomination. It opposes the Jewish materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery can only come about from within based on the principle: THE COMMON GOOD BEFORE THE INDIVIDUAL GOOD.
Hitler, 24 February 1920. Any questions?
Fuck off, bigot.
Yeah, here's mine: why did Nazism have nothing of this supposed pro-Christian ideology?
Hitler during his later years expressed hostility towards Christianity and was uncomfortable with its Semitic origins. Like Jews, Catholics had been heavy targets of the Nazis and Hitler had no problem persecuting the Catholic Church in nations outside Germany. Poland in particular suffered enormous amounts of Catholic casualties.
To paint Hitler as some religious Christian is not only historically incorrect, but outright dishonest. Lose that dishonesty.
But enough about NYC and political prosecutions.
You should get some like minded friends to push against them, by screaming in peoples faces, assaulting them, burning their property, vandalizing their neighborhood, and attacking anyone trying to document it.
I wish there was a word for these brave recruits, alas, it eludes me.
Worked for blmantifa (in conjunction with several other fortifications)...
'...more and more apt as time goes by....'
It's still the same old story
A fight for man-boy glory
A case of do or die
The left just wants to fondle children
As time goes by....
At least this is specifically limited to "classroom instruction". The K-3 ban also covers private conversations between teachers and students, does it not? That doesn't make these rules a good thing, but I guess it shows that things could be worse.
They could be worse- you could have psychotic teachers and administrators psychologically abusing kids and hiding it from the children's parents.
Why would a kindergarten teacher need to have a 'private' conversation about human sexuality with their students?
You must obviously never had children if you think they are equipped at that age to even understand the subject.
"about human sexuality"
If you mean human sexual activity, they don't need to and they don't have those conversations.
If you mean talking humans being gay and trans, that's a different story. "I'm sorry, Timmy, but we couldn't read the book you brought in for story time because it has two daddies in it and a bunch of angry parents hate liberty." is a very likely conversation in Florida schools these days.
"You must obviously never had children if you think they are equipped at that age to even understand the subject."
If you mean sex, I agree. If you mean gay and trans people existing, I know you're wrong. Preschoolers understand that some of theor classmates have two daddies or two mommies. They aren't idiots, no matter how hard cultural conservative try to make them so.
"If you mean talking humans being gay and trans, that’s a different story. “I’m sorry, Timmy, but we couldn’t read the book you brought in for story time because it has two daddies in it and a bunch of angry parents hate liberty.” is a very likely conversation in Florida schools these days."
...except the children can bring the subject up. At least have SOME knowledge of what you are demagoguing like a madman here.
"If you mean sex, I agree. If you mean gay and trans people existing, I know you’re wrong. Preschoolers understand that some of theor classmates have two daddies or two mommies. They aren’t idiots, no matter how hard cultural conservative try to make them so."
Before I answer this...do YOU have any kids?
"…except the children can bring the subject up. At least have SOME knowledge of what you are demagoguing like a madman here."
And then, what? The teacher just stares at them silently? They aren't going to risk the wrath of the self-righteous. Your friends would cancel them in a heatbeat. So stop pretending that this is a reasonable law.
My own? No. Are you going to tell me that if I don't have my own kids I couldn't understand? Because that's always been total BS.
I have neices and nephews. My partner taught pre-K for a couple decades. I have experience with kids of all ages (especially teenagers) as a coach. Four year olds understand some people have parents who are man/man, man/woman, woman/woman, or just one parent. It's not a difficult concept to grasp unless you don't want to.
"My own? No. Are you going to tell me that if I don’t have my own kids I couldn’t understand?"
Yes. With the added bonus that your opinion is pointless and immaterial.
Have a kid and come back to me.
My opinion is pointless and immaterial to your kids in the exact same way that yours is pointless and immeterial to everyone else's.
Having a kid isn't some magical portal into a higher understanding of universal truths.
It's literally nothing special to anyone other than the person who just had a child. To everyone else it is so common it's not even worth mentioning. Say, "Oh, my God! Someone had a child today" and see how people react.
"At least this is specifically limited to “classroom instruction”. The K-3 ban also covers private conversations between teachers and students, does it not? That doesn’t make these rules a good thing, but I guess it shows that things could be worse."
Teachers need to discuss sex with 8 year olds privately...why?
Hell, teachers need to discuss sex with 17 year olds privately...why?
Sexual orientation and gender identity aren't sex. You have to realize that unless you are so stupid you can barely remember to breate.
Maybe government schools should be focused on students mastering topics like history/math/science before getting to the LGBT and gender identity issues. I completely agree with an earlier commenter: when did LGBT and gender identity issues become part of a K-12 public school curriculum? As a FL taxpayer, I’m fine with all of the restrictions described in this article and unless the setting of all curricula can be described as “censorship,” I’m not sure this qualifies.
LGBT issues are relevant to some of those topics, especially history/social studies. LGBT rights issues have been very relevant to recent history, an American history, Social Studies, or Current Events class that didn't mention them would not give a good understanding of recent history. If a student is studying basic civics and gets to the topic of legal concepts of marriage, it seems relevant to at least mention that gay marriage is a thing now.
A gay man in England won WWII almost single-handedly by breaking the Nazi encryption. He was rewarded with his efforts with chemical castration. You may not learn about his or many important computer science topics in Florida. Yup, can't talk about the Turing Test in Florida Schools.
dude..history isn't sex "ed". The identification of Turning as a gay guy isn't a problem. It is educatoin on sexual preference or even gender confusion (trans genderism is a scientific impossibility rather is a mental illness) which is the focus. Team sexual reproduction in health class but someones sexual preference is a personal thing for a youngster and not in the States interest to "educate"
On what planet are you learning about the gay English WWII code-breaker in K-12 history? I seriously doubt you learned that in your public school history class(es). I certainly didn’t and I didn’t receive my high school education in FL. That is some serious WWII history minutia there. Come on….good try. And one more thing, what is the relevance of that historical figure’s sexual preference for a public school student??
His role has been greatly over publicized. Yes, he contributed but so did the Polish Mathematician who invented the Enigma machine who explained how it worked to the fucking British so they could even begin to try and decipher the code.
Turing winning the war single handedly is bullshit. Even in 1940-1942 German U boats were never able to sink enough allied shipping to seriously hinder operations (mainly because they didn't focus on oil freighters until to late in the war for it to matter).
Germany had only one realistic shot at winning the war, and they blew it when Hitler ordered the 6th Panzer to halt and allowed the Luftwaffe to try and force the BEF to surrender at Dunkirk. And even that was a long shot, because the RAF and Royal Navy most likely could have indefinitely held off any German attempt at crossing the Channel, even without an Army. That is because the the Kriegsmarine had told Hitler they wouldn't be ready to fight until 1945, but he decided to start the war six years early. And then, he ignored the U boat service until 1943, once it was to late to actually matter. And if you read anything about the battle of the Atlantic, just as important, if not more according to the actual commanders and most historians, in winning the Battle of the Atlantic was two inventions that had nothing to do with Enigma. Radar (especially smaller band radars that came into existence after 1941) and the jeep carrier/baby flattops.
As to air operations, the British mostly refused to utilize the intelligence in any meaningful way to avoid compromising the intelligence (Coventry is the most famous example of this) and superior British radar gave more than adequate time to scramble fighters (in fact early in the war, to keep the Luftwaffe guessing as to how good their radar was, the RAF deliberately delayed scrambling interceptors as early as they were capable of).
As to ground combat, there are almost no battles that you can point to that the outcome would have been any different due to Enigma intercepts. In fact the one battle that Enigma played any role in was the Battle of Ardennes and that was because the Germans didn't use Enigma.
Arguably the two most significant strategic and tactical battles that we can definitively state code breaking played a (arguably the) pivotal role in during World War 2 was the Battle of the Solomon Seas and the Battle of Midway, which Alan Turing had absolutely nothing to do with. Instead that was the work of two extremely dedicated, career naval officers who put together (with far less resources and personal than the British decoding program) a brilliant team of code breakers from all branches of service, all tanks, and all specialties, and ultimately to the career Annapolis graduate who chose to gamble on their partial decoded intelligence.
There is one more major technological invention that played an even larger role in the Battle of the Atlantic than Bletchley Park, and that was radio triangulation, which allowed convoys to steer around Wolf Packs even without (often independent of) any Ultra intelligence, and also allowed escorting war vessels and aircraft to locate and attack the wolf packs, who remained completely oblivious to the fact that the Allied were able to locate them by their radio communications even without decoding them.
To further this, Donitz focused on gross tonnage sunk as opposed to prioritizing vessels (the US Navy initially suffered under the same strategy, and even worse, targeting capital ships over freighters). England was actually less oil and resource poor than Germany, but the Kriegsmarine never really threatened their logistics.
Churchill did say the U boats kept him up at night, but that was more in reference to their possibility as opposed to their actual success or lack thereof.
Except that’s not what the law says. Have you tried NOT being hysterical about this?
And his understanding of history seems limited to a single, mostly fictional, recent movie that greatly exaggerated the role of a single programmer among tens of thousands working at Bletchley Park and ignores the actual data that showed that even after breaking Enigma, the Kriegsmarine had some of their highest rates of sinking of the war, and that what really turned the battle of the Atlantic was a smaller band radar, radio triangulation and closing the gap through the introduction of escort carriers. Allied air coverage may not have sunk a lot of U boats but they forced them to submerge early, where they travelled slower than even the slowest convoy freighter. Radio triangulation allowed allied airpower to intercept U boats entering and leaving Brest in all weather, at all times of the day. After this one piece of technology was introduced, it accounted for over half of all u boats not even making it to their patrol sectors. The role of Ultra, while it was beneficial, is greatly overstated in most modern media.
According to Patton the most critical piece of equipment that helped the Allies win the war was the M-1 rifle. Others have credited the Liberty ships and the Deuce and a half (probably the most important piece of equipment during December of 1944). I would argue for radar because it played an important part in every theater and was the deciding factor in more battles than any other technology. In the old Yamato vs Iowa class battleship debate, the key factor is that the radar on the Iowa was capable of giving accurate firing data further than the Yamato's primitive radar, thus even if the Yamato did ever engage an Iowa class, the Iowa class could engage accurately before the Yamato despite the further range of the Yamato's guns. The Battle of Britain was won by radar. The Battle of the Atlantic was arguably won by radar (or at least it played a huge role). The Battle of the Philippines Seas, radar. The Battle of Guadalcanal, especially the Cactus Air Force, radar (and coastal observers). The sea battle of Iwo Jima and Okinawa: radar. Hell even Bocks Car dropped it's bomb based on radar aiming (hell, after it was introduced in 1944, radar aiming improved both the effectiveness and destructiveness of the 8th Air Forces daylight bombing raids, allowing better targeting of critical bridges, road and rail junctions etc that contributed to the 6th Panzer taking over 24 hours to move a couple hundred kilometers to counter the landings at Normandy). It also allowed the fighters of the 8th Air Force to intercept the Luftwaffe long before the ever reached the beachheads at Normandy, despite terrible flying conditions. If any single technology gave the Allies a decided advantage over the Axis is every single theater, it would be the superior radar the British and then the Americans were using and improving throughout the war. And if the US had been aware of the potential and proper use of radar, Yamamoto would have had egg on his face on December 7th, as US radar had picked up the Japanese Navy with plenty of time to have scrambled our fighters and had our fleet sortie out of Pearl. Instead of a sleeping giant, the IJN would have faced a wide awake and scrambled USAAF and USN, but some lieutenant misidentified the radar intercept of a sergeant. Pearl Harbor came down to a single butter bar telling a sergeant that the huge radar intercept he identified was simply a flight of B-17s and to ignore it. So even in America's worse defeat of the war, radar played a critical, if infamous role.
One more nail in your assertion, by the end of 1942, US dockyards were turning out so many tons of of freighters that it would have been nearly impossible for the IJN and Kriegsmarine combined to even come close to sinking enough to put a dent in shipping. And we kept doubling that output over the next three years of the war. So, even without Ultra, the Allies would still have won the Battle of the Atlantic because of superior US production, the fact that the US Atlantic fleet and Royal Navy outnumbered the Kriegsmarine even before the US ramped up warship production, the Allies had better radar that they continuously improved, radio triangulation, escort carriers (which were faster and cheaper to build than fleet carriers while being perfectly suited for convoy duty as they were developed from freighters, over 90% of all US carriers produced were escort carriers), and superior tactics and strategies that took advantage of these technological and logistical superiority. Given all of these advantages, Ultra role has been vastly over stated by pop-historians and media.
Okay, one more thought, because I think this is important to. The biggest benefit that Enigma and the German reliance and trust in it gave to the Allies wasn't that we broke it, but that the Germans high command so trusted in it that they required far more communications from their U-boat captains while on patrol. The US Navies submarine fleet was known (and still is) as the silent service and skippers were basically allowed independent command and kept communications while on patrol to the bare minimum. The Kriegsmarine on the other hand required their skippers to broadcast so much that even without breaking the code, the sheer volume of communication alone would have allowed (and often did as I stated above) to locate and neutralize wolf packs by their coded, undeciphered communications alone. The field commanders, especially the Royal Navy commanders who were in charge of convoys, stated ultra was mostly useless because it took days to decipher and the data thus was often so out date that it wasn't useful for operations. The reason that the radio decryption at Pearl was so important to the Battle of the Coral Sea and Midway was because those were such huge operations that took months of coordination allowing the lag time between intercept and decryption to matter far less than the much faster pace of convoy coordination, where at any given time there might be a dozen convoys in various stages of the passage, each hundreds of ships in size, with no break in operations from the nearly the start of the war to May 8th, 1945 (and beyond). In a theater 3000 miles long, with thousands of moving parts at various stages of transit from multiple ports across the globe, being fought around the clock, intelligence that is even an hour old was often to out of date to be much use, let alone the days to weeks it took to decrypt a single Ultra intercept. And it is also well documented that the codes Ultra was most efficient at decoding was the daily weather reports U-boats were required to send in (lacking reliable weather stations for any of the Western Atlantic, the Germans relied on meteorological reports from patrolling U boats to plan Luftwaffe and Wermacht activities that were weather dependent). This made up the vast majority of Ultra successful decryptions and it's most useful operational intelligence was to give Allied convoy command and idea where a U boat's general location was at some point in time previously and an idea of approximately how many U boats were on patrol (although when they compared the number of U boats that the allied intelligence estimated based on Ultra intercepts and the actual number of boats on patrol after the war, the found that Allied intelligence had vastly overestimated the number of U boats on patrol, often estimating more than the number of U boats even in service by ad much as 500-600%). Beneficial but not critical and hardly war winning.
Gay marriage is legal because of libertarian platforms and spoiler votes. This is 4th-grade arithmetic.
"topics like history/math/science before getting to the LGBT and gender identity issues"
Two out of the three of those subjects are inextricably intertwined with gay and trans issues.
History without those issues isn't actual history. It's like talking about the Civil Rights era without discussing race.
Studying biology without reproduction and human sexuality is just as idiotic (and no, I'm not referring to sex education topics).
Math doesn't need those topics, but if they were discussing Alan Turing, they shouldn't be fired for mentioning that he was gay.
Politicians micromanaging subjects in education is a bad idea.
"Politicians micromanaging subjects in education is a bad idea."
Yep.
Not if it's for correcting potential criminal activity, which is what the teachers were doing.
What "potential criminal activity"? As was mentioned above, a teacher is no more or less likely to be a criminal than a priest. Why should a flawed assumption be the basis of legislation?
I have to admit, that with that title, Shackford is doing a little bit of gaslighting. However, I wonder how accurate his predictions might be. Such "mission creep" is all too common.
Given mission creep, I wonder if a future English lit teacher will be banned from allowing their students to discuss Walt Whitman's sexuality.
The very Core-Problem -----> Commie-Education.
Communism and Socialism proves over and over to be a curse. Yet criminal minds just keep pushing for MORE of it.
Hated Whitman....if the unintended consequence is not having to read that bore...well victory achieved.
Mission creep like gay rights becoming systemic conversion therapy to pedophilia, homosexuality, and transgenderism?
It's extremely weird how important maintaining state sponsored sexual abuse is to you.
I think his sexual preference for trees will be just as self evident to any kid reading his work in or out of Florida.
Did Whitman ever address his sexuality? Then why should an English teacher. Hitler spent a lot of time with homosexuals, he was a bachelor until the last day of his life and he seemed to be more ready to suck on a mauser than consummate his honeymoon. Why aren’t the lbgT crowd celebrating that.
The number of high ranking homosexuals in the higher ranks of the Nazi Party while it was gaining power is truly astonishing given the percentage of homosexuals at large, especially in the SA's upper ranks.
Yeah, especially given their obsession with the "Aryan ideal". Homosexuals were certainly NOT their idea of that.
"Did Whitman ever address his sexuality? Then why should an English teacher."
NOT the question I asked. Students (at least some of them) have been bringing up the subject for at least seventy years. Will the teacher allow the discussion? Or will said teacher, out of fear of possible retribution, stop the discussion?
They will be able to discuss the fact that he was a homosexual and what that means.
They will not be able to communicate the CRT views and ideology on the matter.
Read the bill.
They could also just skip him, which would probably be for the better.
"They will be able to discuss the fact that he was a homosexual and what that means."
They, meaning the students?
"They will not be able to communicate the CRT views and ideology on the matter."
They, meaning the students?
"Read the bill."
The language of the bill is open to a whole lot of "interpretation." All it takes is one irate parent or administrator to make any given teacher's classroom a living hell.
Well, they can easily avoid that by not assigning Whitman. Whitman's works are not essential for Florida's English Language curriculum. They should also avoid works like Lady Chatterly's Lover, Tropic of Cancer, Ulysses, Fanny Hill, and Les Fleurs du mal.
What if it turns out to mean Christian National Socialists can't
pray at their doorstalk and harass them into involuntary reproduction?How does the Florida bill permit this? There's nothing in it that suggests your claim (which isn't even accurate) will come true.
And contrary to your claim, Christians are not forcing women to reproduce--they are only advocating accountability whenever a woman willingly chooses to take an action (with a man, mind you) that risks her being pregnant. This view also saves lives. Big difference.
In my classrooms I taught the useful curriculum, and everyone was happy.
Waitaminnit... are the commies blaming Cathode Ray Tubes for Global Warming?
"They will not be able to communicate the CRT views and ideology on the matter."
Another question: if the teacher is not allowed to discuss CRT, how is said teacher supposed to point out that it's eighty-percent unadulterated bullshit?
They do not do so. The vast majority will not do so.
They actually ARE allowed to "discuss" CRT. They're not allowed to teach CRT.
It's the difference between, "CRT says you're guilty for slavery on account of being white." and "You ARE guilty for slavery on account of being white."
"They’re not allowed to teach CRT."
That make a bit more sense, if that's the way it ends up working out. I guess we will see.
It's not clear where CRT fits into the Florida curriculum.
But the Florida K-12 curriculum is pretty vague. Perhaps it should be sharpened, and whether and how CRT should be taught should be well defined.
It's CRT and a pre-college curriculum. CRT isn't any part if it because CRT isn't high school subject matter. Even most college students don't study it.
Well, then there should be no problem prohibiting teaching it, or prohibiting teaching any curriculum or content based on CRT or CRT principles! Glad we agree!
If the law was actually addressing CRT, I wouldn't have a problem. But the things that the law bans aren't CRT.
Making people "“feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin.” shouldn't be against the law. Criminalizing hurt feelings is a terrible idea. It also isn't CRT.
You know, people have confidently asserted that over and over here at Reason, despite being confronted with links and quotes proving the contrary. It's like you think if you stick with the lie eventually people will believe it.
Here's an example.
Mostly what's going on is motte and bailey; CRT broadly defined is being widely rolled out as a guide to how to teach subjects in K-12, not so often itself being taught. When this is pointed out, CRT defenders fall back to a very narrow definition of CRT.
Then go back to the broad definition when objecting to laws banning it's teaching in public schools, because these laws target the broad form.
"CRT broadly defined"
Sure, if you broaden the definition until it isn't CRT.
CRT is a method of analyzing history. Most people, including most teachers, have never taken a class on CRT. So this weird idea that CRT is being taught in K-12 schools because it is being taught in colleges and teachers have gone to college is such a tangential connection between curricula and CRT that only a fool or a partisan would make such a ridiculous claim in public.
“CRT says you’re guilty for slavery on account of being white.”
Jesus. You really have no clue what CRT is, do you?
Oh, quit the weasel words. He's right, you're wrong, Nelson. If you don't understand his somewhat glib statement, here is a more lengthy explanation.
Critical race theory (CRT) contends that white Americans are the beneficiaries of unearned privilege and wealth due to slavery and other forms of systemic racism. This privilege has enabled white Americans to accumulate wealth, access resources, and enjoy societal advantages that have been denied to people of color. CRT argues that this privilege is not the result of individual merit or effort, but rather is the product of a history of systemic oppression and discrimination.
According to CRT, white Americans have a moral and legal duty to pay minorities back for the harm they have caused them. This means acknowledging and addressing the ongoing legacy of slavery and other forms of systemic racism, and working towards racial justice and equity. CRT calls for policies and practices that address the racial wealth gap, promote affirmative action and reparations, and challenge structural inequalities in areas such as education, housing, and criminal justice.
"Critical race theory (CRT) contends that white Americans are the beneficiaries of unearned privilege and wealth due to slavery and other forms of systemic racism"
And that isn't a historical truth?
"This privilege has enabled white Americans to accumulate wealth, access resources, and enjoy societal advantages that have been denied to people of color."
Again, are you saying this isn't a historical truth?
"CRT argues that this privilege is not the result of individual merit or effort, but rather is the product of a history of systemic oppression and discrimination."
See, this is where I see CRT as beginning its descent into irrelevance, as a theory. On a societal level this is true, but just because something is true in the aggregate doesn't mean that it can be applied to all members of the larger group.
"According to CRT, white Americans have a moral and legal duty to pay minorities back for the harm they have caused them."
This is where CRT loses all credibility, in my view. There are many ways to try to balance out, at scale, the disadvantages that white supremacy imposed blacks in America.
"This means acknowledging and addressing the ongoing legacy of slavery and other forms of systemic racism, and working towards racial justice and equity."
The "ongoing legacy of slavery" is the weakest part of a weak theory. Are there ongoing effects from the unequal treatment of blacks from before tbe founding if America through, at the very least, the mid 1960s? Absolutely. Is that the "ongoing legacy of slavery"? That's a rhetorical phrase that that they want to support further overreaching. And it isn't strong enough to do so.
"CRT calls for policies and practices that address the racial wealth gap, promote affirmative action and reparations, and challenge structural inequalities in areas such as education, housing, and criminal justice."
Agreed. And because the theory is predicated on the idea that slavery somehow continued on after it was abolished, which is trying to take a metaphor and give it the authority of fact, most of it is ridiculous. Especially any direct payments or reparations.
Here is the problem for those, like you, who claim that CRT is being taught in K-12 schools. While the first two parts are probably taught, they aren't CRT. They are just facts. There is no theory necessary to illuminate them.
Everything else you listed is part of CRT (plus a lot more. It isn't a simple theory) but it also isn't in curricula in American schools.
Are there teachers who have studied it and present it as part of their individual classroom? I'm sure there are. There are also teachers who present the Civil War as thhe War of Northern Aggression. It's not the curriculum, but teachers are like everyone else. They have individual beliefs and opinions.
Just because some individual teachers accept and believe the analytical theory called CRT doesn't mean it is being taught in schools. Individual behavior can't be projected onto the larger group. That's why the "CRT is being taught in schools" isn't true.
Commenting on CRT isn't part of the English Language curriculum, or any other K-12 curriculum, hence teachers should not talk about it at all.
CRT might be included in the Social Science curriculum in the future, alongside Neo Nazism, as a hateful, radical ideology with roots in 20th century totalitarianism.
"CRT views and ideology"
You still don't understand what CRT is, do you? Very few people study CRT and none of them are in high school. Most teachers have never taken a class that discussed CRT, let alone studied it.
It's the boogeyman, in your mind. To you it isn't an actual thing with actual parameters and actual definitions. It's the disembodied sum of everything you hate and fear.
I didn't say that they are "studying CRT in high school". I am saying that students are being indoctrinated according to CRT principles in many American high schools, by teachers who were themselves indoctrinated in the theory as part of their education. Many of them do not, in fact, understand either the origins or the full meaning of the theory.
I understand exactly what CRT is, having lived through much of the intellectual history of critical theory and read many of the works. How about you?
Let me summarize it for you:
Critical Race Theory (CRT) is a branch of critical theory that emerged in the United States in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Critical theory is a broad theoretical framework that encompasses a range of interdisciplinary approaches to understanding power, culture, and society. The roots of critical theory can be traced back to the Frankfurt School of the 1930s and 1940s, which was a group of Marxist philosophers and social theorists who sought to analyze the relationship between capitalism, culture, and society.
"I am saying that students are being indoctrinated according to CRT principles in many American high schools, by teachers who were themselves indoctrinated in the theory as part of their education."
So they are being influenced, but not taught, CRT by teachers who were influenced, but not taught, about what CRT actually says? It's like whisper down the lane and guilt by association had a bastard child. If the teacher never studied CRT and the curriculum doesn't include CRT, how is it being taught to kids?
"I understand exactly what CRT is, having lived through much of the intellectual history of critical theory and read many of the works. How about you?"
Yes, I am fully aware of the relationship between CRT and critical theory. How is that relebant to the absence of CRT in American schools?
Here is a reading list for you. Oh, and as for not being taught in college, we had some of those assigned freshman year in college.
Critical Theory:
“Dialectic of Enlightenment” by Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer (1947)
“One-Dimensional Man” by Herbert Marcuse (1964)
“Discipline and Punish” by Michel Foucault (1975)
“Gender Trouble” by Judith Butler (1990)
“The Social Construction of Reality” by Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann (1966)
Critical Race Theory:
“Mapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence against Women of Color” by Kimberlé Crenshaw (1991) “Whiteness as Property” by Cheryl Harris (1993)
“Toward a Theory of Race, Crime, and Urban Inequality” by Katheryn Russell-Brown (1998)
"we had some of those assigned freshman year in college."
Yes, the operative words being "in college".
"Did Whitman ever address his sexuality? Then why should an English teacher."
Why shouldn't they? Bios don't only mention what the subject discussed, they describe the person. Often sexuality had a profound impact on writers, musicians, and other artists. Themes and characters are often metaphors for tooics that they either wouldn't (or couldn't) address directly.
You seem to thinkbthat every tiny thing should have to justify its existence in an academic discussion. That is the mindset of an authoritarian. Allowing relevant issues to be discussed is how liberty-minded people (and those who don't fear opposing ideas) educate.
++
Understanding the impact of sexuality on writers, musicians, and other artists isn't part of the Florida high school curriculum. So why discuss it at all?
High school kids aren't engaging in "academic discussions", they are supposed to learn the basics of reading, writing, history, and science. More generally, they are supposed to learn specifically what their parents want them to learn and what their parents pay for.
No, yours is the mindset of an authoritarian: forcibly taking money from parents and then indoctrinating their kids against their parents' will.
That is the mindset of an authoritarian
"Understanding the impact of sexuality on writers, musicians, and other artists isn’t part of the Florida high school curriculum. So why discuss it at all?"
Right. I forgot that only approved inquiry that has been determined to be relevant by politicians can be pursued in a government-approved manner. Academic inquiry, curiosity, and knowledge are availabke to all Fkorida students, subject to political approval. Otherwise just sit down and stop asking questions.
Shorter: why not discuss it?
It's relevant to the subject at hand. Unless you think writers and artists shouldn't be studied, either.
"High school kids aren’t engaging in “academic discussions”, they are supposed to learn the basics of reading, writing, history, and science."
I did. Everone I went to high school with did. It sounds like you had a paltry and inadequate education if you think that's what school is supposed to be.
We had discussions, asked questions, and developed critical thinking skills. We studied successes and failures throughout history and examined why. It's how I ended up at an elite college and succeeded in life. My education prepared me to be a leader, not a follower. Your way seems destined to manufacture followers.
Maybe that's why Florida schools specifically and red state schools in general suck. If you stifle curiosity and academic discussions, you end up with worker drones who lack critical thinking skills.
"More generally, they are supposed to learn specifically what their parents want them to learn and what their parents pay for."
So the curriculum should be individually shaped to conform to each parent's demands for their children? They can't be taught anything that their parents don't know or understand?
That's an amazing vision of education you have there. At least it makes sure your kid will never be smarter or better than you are by making sure they never learn anything more than you already know.
"No, yours is the mindset of an authoritarian: forcibly taking money from parents and then indoctrinating their kids against their parents’ will."
I'm not sure why it's suddenly my fault that public funding for education exists, but I'm sure you have some insane reason.
You want to force everyone else to follow your ideological beliefs, regardless of whether they have any educational benefit. You want to prevent students from learning about things you don't like. You want them to sit down, shut up, and learn what they are told and no more. And you want to use government force to do it.
Explain to me again who the authoritarian is? The one who supports curiosity, inquiry, and expansive knowledge or the one who wants students to mindlessly accept the limited knowledge the government will allow them to access?
Florida tax payers pay for education, therefore Florida taxpayers get to determine the curriculum via democratic processes.
You know who doesn't get to determine the curriculum against the wishes of parents? Teachers, students, or bureaucrats.
What is relevant to English curriculum in Florida schools is documented here. Furthermore, if voters don't like what is in there, it can be changed.
They shouldn't be taught anything that their parents object to.
My "ideological belief" is that parents should determine, through democratic processes, how their tax dollars are spent on education. If parents want their tax dollars to go to public schools that teach conservative Christian morality, that is their choice. And I say that as a gay atheist who doesn't share their ideology at all.
Yes, you are full of critical thinking. Too bad you are devoid of logical thinking, decency, and basic knowledge.
You are indeed a testament to the failures of the US education system.
++
So you are advocating for pure democracy to determine all content of school curriculum through the imposition of political ideology on academic inquiry. Will those curricula change every time a new governor is elected or the legislature changes hands?
Your biggest laugh line, for me, was "They shouldn’t be taught anything that their parents object to.". You can't possibly believe that each child's education should be subject to a line-item veto by patents, can you?
I also like how you believe that educated professionals shouldn't have any input into their area if expertise. Individual patents should be able to approve or disapprove of anything even if they are clueless idiots, but the teachers who spent years training to teach don'r know anything.
"Yes, you are full of critical thinking. Too bad you are devoid of logical thinking, decency, and basic knowledge."
I'm doing just fine with critical thinking and logic, considering I'm not the one spewing cookie-cutter talking points and boogeyman-based attacks on entire professions. My knowledge has been clearly displayed and my decency is demonstrated by my opposition to your Orwellian vision of the virtues of government-approved knowledge in education.
Of course your extra twist of a parental line-item knowledge veto makes the oppression of Orwell pale in comparison.
If your definition of decency is the oppressive hand of a majority-rule government banning knowledge, I'll be indecent, thank you very much.
Red State school suck in general? Rochester NY...look it up..$1B school district annual budget for 20K kids..less kids than in 1920. How those test scores? Chicago? Hey I'm here all week.
Cultural Marxism is the root of all this CRT/DIE degeneracy. It needs to be sent back to central Europe where it came from.
If they can provide a reason why it is relevant in a discussion of his literature, they can feel free.
They also should not list all of the women Hemingway fucked in his life.
Why does mentioning he was gay have to be justified? I thought acknowledging gay people wasn't whatbthe law was about. Otherwise, bitching about calling it "Don't Say Gay" would be dishonest, wouldn't it?
Any other pointless trivia you want teachers to spend time on? How about his favorite food. Was he lactose intolerant? Did he love to dance? Could he fire a rifle and hit a can 50 feet away?
Hell, let’s not actually teach anything and, INSTEAD, focus on pointless trivia because Nelson here has his feelings hurt if trivia is not a laughable obsession in classrooms.
I’d rather teachers try and teach, you know, material they are HIRED to teach.
Also, do YOU have any children? It's not a difficult question to answer. I'm betting that you do not.
"Any other pointless trivia you want teachers to spend time on?"
The fact that you think life experiences are "useless trivia" and sexuality is never relevant to the actions of historically significant figures says a lot about you. None of it good.
"I’d rather teachers try and teach, you know, material they are HIRED to teach."
And what material is that? Should it all be the most basic, bullet-point, bland facts and never examine the context or relevance of elements like personal beliefs and experiences?
"Also, do YOU have any children? It’s not a difficult question to answer. I’m betting that you do not."
I already answered that. Why would you think having kids would be relevant to understanding the educational significance of the life experiences of historical figures? Understanding educational value doesn't require one to be a parent.
What you seem to be complaining about is that there are things you don't like being taught. Things that, while most people can clearly see their relevance, escapes your understanding. "Material they are HIRED to teach" is mind-bogglingly vague, but you say it as if there is only one way to teach thing's or one way to view history. There isn't.
"The fact that you think life experiences are “useless trivia” and sexuality is never relevant to the actions of historically significant figures says a lot about you. None of it good."
I know you think the only thing worthy of mention is whom they fuck. Got it. If somebody was gay and never discussed it --- no, it is not terribly relevant to their work. Rock Hudson being gay had as little as humanly possible to do with his acting. Why mention it if it not relevant? At that point, yes, it is pointless trivia.
" And what material is that? Should it all be the most basic, bullet-point, bland facts and never examine the context or relevance of elements like personal beliefs and experiences?"
How about they demonstrate the ability to teach the basics (which they have not demonstrated, mind you) before attempting anything remotely complex? I'm sure it's great to know what mathematician was gay, but if the student cannot add or subtract, seems like pointless trivia in place of knowledge.
"I already answered that. Why would you think having kids would be relevant to understanding the educational significance of the life experiences of historical figures? Understanding educational value doesn’t require one to be a parent."
While I appreciate your assumed expertise on the subject, you are not one. You do not know what you are writing about. Have a child you are responsible for and get back to me.
"What you seem to be complaining about is that there are things you don’t like being taught."
I want to see students actually KNOW stuff. Students these days are not taught much of anything. True, their teachers are ALSO blithering idiots, but this is what educators demand and people like you believe we should bow to their (non-existent) expertise in the field.
If a student cannot read at their grade level, what the hell is the point in teaching them "Well, this writer was a southpaw who also liked banana daquiris"? Get the fundamentals taught for a change before trying things outside of the expertise of, again, the dumbest students on any college campus.
"Things that, while most people can clearly see their relevance, escapes your understanding. “Material they are HIRED to teach” is mind-bogglingly vague, but you say it as if there is only one way to teach thing’s or one way to view history. There isn’t."
What you want has failed. I know, it does not matter to you, given your sheer lack of skin in this game.
Do you support allowing the tax dollars to go with the student for school choice or forced indoctrination of CRT? This is a libertarian site by the way..
It is useless trivia if they aren’t learning the basics.
And considering how many kids graduate high school below a twelfth grade reading or math level, it’s downright cruel to discuss someone’s fucking preference but not teach the kid to read or write or comprehend.
Who ever said anything about not learning the basics?
If you think that kids today learn less than we did in high school, you either don't know what is taught in high school or your schools suck. The subjects that they study are more advanced than when we were kids.
"discuss someone’s fucking preference but not teach the kid to read or write or comprehend."
No one is failing to teach reading, writing, and comprehension because they took two seconds to mention Walt Whitmsn was gay.
Around here we don't have the problems with inadequate education that you do. It could just be that your schools suck.
Whitman's sexuality is irrelevant to the Florida English curriculum. In fact, Whitman's poems are irrelevant to the Florida English curriculum. That's why it has to be justified.
While I loathe poetry as much as most people, I don't think Walt Whitman is irrelevant to education. I guess in your view art and culture aren't important, context is unnecessary, knowledge is just basic facts, and history is just who, what, and when (but not why). What a sad and empty intellectual life you lead.
I said that Whitman’s sexuality is irrelevant to the Florida English curriculum. In fact, Whitman’s poems are irrelevant to the Florida English curriculum.. That is, there is no reason to include Whitman in a Florida K-12 English class because his inclusion isn’t required or even recommended by the Florida curriculum.
My personal preferences on what art and culture to include in the curriculum have nothing to do with it, and I haven’t even stated them. I simply want Florida parents to decide what their kids get taught, and Massachusetts parents to decide what their kids get taught. So, Florida kids may read Hemingway and Massachusetts kids may read Longfellow.
But your continued evident inability to comprehend even basic English sentences illustrates another point: US high school graduates are seriously deficient in basic skills, including reading comprehension. You can’t cover poetry until people can read well enough to understand it. And even “elite college graduates” like you apparently have difficulties with that.
"I simply want Florida parents to decide what their kids get taught"
No, you want Florida politicians to decide what kids get taught.
"But your continued evident inability to comprehend even basic English sentences"
My reading comprehension, like my math comprehension, tested in the 99th percentile the one time I took the SAT. As a sophomore. After a four hour practice.
You can criticize my beliefs all you want, but my mind (and the essays I wrote, each in a different writing style because I thought it would be fun) got me into one of the best colleges in the country. My ability to analyze, gameplan, and accurately assess business opportunities helped me build a successful business and retire at 45. Your ability to assess me is as deficient as your dedication to intellectual inquiry and opposition to government bans on knowledge.
"US high school graduates are seriously deficient in basic skills,"
Maybe where you live. I'm starting to think the problem is with your schools.
"And even “elite college graduates”"
I never said I graduated. I left when I had to decide whther to devote my time to my business or college because there weren't enough hours to do both. Since I'm now retired, it looks like I nailed that analysis, too.
You seem to think I am some egghead academic. You're wrong about that, too. College was a fun intellectual challenge, but I learned most of what I know through brains and hard work.
Why do you think I am such a vocal advocate of capitalism, small businesses, and free markets? Those are my roots.
I wonder how it would even be possible to get parent's permission for classes to discuss these topics, since mentioning the existence of parents in any way would count as discussing sexual orientation. Even if most kids come from 2-parent heterosexual families, heterosexuality is a sexual orientation. So mentioning parents pr families at all is teaching sexual orientation to kids. Are teachers supposed to all pretend that their students grew up in some kind of sci-fi dystopia creche?
The fact that this hasn't occurred to the Bill's writers indicates that they are obviously bigots who see the bill as a tool to enforce bigotry. They haven't thought at all about what the bill says, only on what they want it to allow them to do.
The fact that this hasn’t occurred to the Bill’s writers indicates that they are obviously
bigots who see the bill as a tool to enforce bigotrypoliticians who see an opportunity to channel parental rage at a self-righteous, condescending educational establishment that is constantly telling kids their parents are bigotsFTFY, but yes, they haven't really thought it through.
That’s a lot of words to tell everyone you’re a fucking moron who can’t read the plain English of the bill and doesn’t understand the difference between instruction ON sexual orientation and acknowledging that people have parents.
You wonder this because you haven’t read the bill and instead repeat progressive propaganda and lies.
"I wonder how it would even be possible to get parent’s permission for classes to discuss these topics, since mentioning the existence of parents in any way would count as discussing sexual orientation. "
Catch a glimpse of this hottest of hot takes.
"Even if most kids come from 2-parent heterosexual families, heterosexuality is a sexual orientation."
So you agree it is the "Don't Say Straight" bill then? Weird, the critics do not think so.
"The fact that this hasn’t occurred to the Bill’s writers indicates that they are obviously bigots who see the bill as a tool to enforce bigotry. They haven’t thought at all about what the bill says, only on what they want it to allow them to do."
Yup, only people who agree with you are ACTUALLY humans. Good call.
So Florida is literally going back to "Don't Ask Don't Tell". Got it.
It's one thing to not like gays, it's quite another to legislate them away into the cornfield. Stupid ass kulturwar trying to pretend people don't exist.
Pretending people dont exist, and not explicitly advertising their lifestyle/kinks/mental illness (in the case of trannies) to school kids, is not the same thing.
Please stop with the histrionics, no one is impressed, thanks
All of my classmates and I knew what gays, lesbians, and even trannies were, decades ago. We didnt have classes with drag queens and trannies to teach us about it, and often, our parents were the ones answering questions about it...as it should be. Kids dont need advertisements on LGBTQ lifestyle and specifically gender ideology, most importantly due to the latter leading to significant depression and mental illness.
Teach fucking math
But Scott *really* wants to teach teenagers about fellatio, instead.
"Teach fucking math"
They aren't mutually exclusive, doofus.
Given test scores...they have opted to not teach math at all.
What exactly is a public school's responsibility for a gay kid versus a straight kid? What role does the school have besides protecting both and teaching sexual reproduction regarding "sexuality"?
Bullshit. Nobody is excluding or discriminating against gay kids.
"So Florida is literally going back to “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell”. Got it.
It’s one thing to not like gays, it’s quite another to legislate them away into the cornfield. Stupid ass kulturwar trying to pretend people don’t exist."
Again, since his name was used earlier --- what precisely is the use of knowing Walt Whitman's sexuality? Any academic reason to know it?
Perhaps we'd prefer the mesomorphs who populate education schools around the country spend their time learning a useful topic to teach.
"what precisely is the use of knowing Walt Whitman’s sexuality? Any academic reason to know it?"
If you believe in liberty, the question isn't "how do you justify saying this", it's "how do you justify banning this".
Academically, sexual orientation is often a theme in artistic works both overtly and metaphorically.
Finally, I thought that "don't say gay" wasn't an accurate description of the law. It sure seems like that's how it's interpreted by its supporters.
Not so dishonest or disingenuous a description at all, is it?
"If you believe in liberty, the question isn’t “how do you justify saying this”, it’s “how do you justify banning this”."
And the student is free to investigate. A teacher bringing it up for legitimately no reason is pointless and, given the pathetic shape of public education in this country, a distraction.
"Academically, sexual orientation is often a theme in artistic works both overtly and metaphorically."
Nah. Not really. Writers are more than whom they fuck.
"Finally, I thought that “don’t say gay” wasn’t an accurate description of the law. It sure seems like that’s how it’s interpreted by its supporters."
Responding to hystericals is not evidence that this is how I view the bill. Nice try at exceptionally amateurish psychoanalysis, though.
Wow. You are woefully ignorant. And not ashamed at all about proving it over and over.
What is "legitimately no reason", exactly? Are you the arbiter?
Do you really not understand how a writer's sexual identity can influence their work? Or their childhood experiences? The loss of a parent? Other deeply emotional experiences? Are you truly incapable of understanding the influences that shape people and their work?
"What is “legitimately no reason”, exactly? Are you the arbiter?"
Parents with kids this impacts should be the arbiter.
That would seem to leave you out of the discussion.
Nobody is banning talking about Whitman's sexuality.
It simply doesn't belong in a K-12 classroom, paid for by taxpayers.
Overt or metaphorical discussions of sexuality are not part of the K-12 curriculum in Florida.
"It simply doesn’t belong in a K-12 classroom, paid for by taxpayers"
Why not?
"Overt or metaphorical discussions of sexuality are not part of the K-12 curriculum in Florida."
Why not? Other than Ron DeSantis' need to do culture war bullshit to appeal to the hard right. After all, he can't be President if he can't pry the MAGA mob away from Trump.
Because Florida tax payers and voters have decided so, via their representatives.
Because the people who authored the Florida K-12 curriculum decided not to make it part of the curriculum.
These subjects have never been part of the Florida K-12 curriculum; DeSantis has nothing to do with it.
That's because nobody other than the radical left ever wanted such discussions included in high school curricula.
Yours is the radical, authoritarian position. I just hold the traditional, moderately liberal position that voters and parents should decide how and what is taught in the schools that they pay for.
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Why is this even a topic for debate? The only "sexual" education for public schools is reproduction. Just leave it at that. Scott seems to be driving for "advocates" for gay kids or so called transgenders (which is simply mental illness). Why should public schools allow "trans or gay" experts to discuss these preferences. What the heck does that have to do with education?
The only other rational is the gay or "trans" kid is shunned at home and needs a "protector" at school. JC..that is just rationalizing grooming Scott. Schools have the responsibility to protect a kid who has decided they are gay after puberty from bullying. And that is about it.
Read the Twitter links I posted above.
We have widespread, systemic programs designed and intended to induce psychosis and distress in children, pushed by the majority of education authorities/institutions in this country, and implemented by teachers at a lot of schools for kids ages 5-18.
This is the real issue.
I'm amazed we're not talking about it in these terms, nonstop.
It's a big fucking deal.
Remember all the fuss over "conversion therapy" to convince gay kids to be straight? Several states passed laws against it, and libertarians applauded.
What's happening in modern education is way beyond any of those programs. It's far more widespread, imposed by authorities, and attendance is mandatory.
We're talking systemic psychological torture of children lasting up to a decade plus.
And this isn't even disputed by those doing it...
" Several states passed laws against it, and libertarians applauded."
Well, people who called themselves 'libertarians' did, anyway.
These regulations are a solution in search of a problem. Letting teachers teach the kids what sex is, what gender is, what "gay" means and what "trans" means are not going to make them more vulnerable to pedophiles. Its not like teaching kids military history makes them more vulnerable to army recruiters.
You are right. What it does do is make them more vulnerable to neo-Marxists, which will destroy their lives just as reliably.
"Sarge, I'm only 18, I got a ruptured spleen, I always carry a purse, I've got eyes like a bat and my feet are flat and my asthma's gettin worse..."
And yet a lot of teachers who are teaching those things are promoting child sexuality to these kids. That's not okay.
As a gay man, I fully approve this. Teachers have no business teaching kids about sexuality in any form, much a creeps like Shackford want them to.
Turns out that the attribute of “sleeping with men” does not a community make. Shackford can go to hell.
I do not get why Scott thinks stopping pedophilia is an assault on LGBT. We moved beyond the assumption that all homosexuals/Bi/Trans want to molest children, I thought. Scott has not, it seems.
I have no doubt that some people pushing for driving sexuality and transgenderism into schools are driven by personal sexual motives. But those people have existed forever, and they aren't at the root of the issue; they never used to have political power to make this happen.
At the root of this is that these people and issues are useful to the radical left for dividing society, creating anger, and alienating children from their parents in order to indoctrinate them. Among other things, kids who transition are going to become angry militant left wing activists, committed to the cause permanently through the irreversible sacrifice of body parts.
"High school psychology classes" - is that a thing?
BTW - Florida residents voted for Desantis. Florida residents want what he is advocating and are glad for it. If you don't like what the residents of Florida like, don't move here. Stay in New York, or California, or Illinois or D.C. Please. Let us enjoy our "experiment". There are 49 other states with "experiments" of their own.
CB
"Florida residents voted for Desantis. Florida residents want what he is advocating and are glad for it. If you don’t like what the residents of Florida like, don’t move here."
^this.
These people need to just let states do their own thing and stop pushing. Go live in CA and deal with the homeless, shit, needles, and unlimited abortion and butt sex that you want, and let the people of FL raise and educate kids in an actual healthy manner.
These people just want their agenda pushed top down from the federal gov and cant accept anything else.
Crackers Boy,
Yes, high psychology classes are social studies electives in many schools here in Florida. They weren’t when I was in high school more than 30 years ago, but there are a lot of interesting electives available now that weren’t then.
As for voting for DeSantis…
I wouldn’t care if 59% of Florida residents voted George Washington or Abraham Lincoln to be our governor. Neither of them would be above criticism if they pushed a policy I disagreed with in my state.
It is always interesting when the people you expect to argue against a tyranny of the majority instead seem to want it.
Not arguing in favor of the "tyranny of the majority". But even in a democratic republic, some people won't get what they want, if enough other people don't want that. That's not "tyranny". That's just some people winning and some people losing. I will gladly criticize Desantis... when he deserves it.
CB
If you don’t like what the residents of Florida like, don’t move here.
That's just the flip side of "if you don't like it, you can leave."
Yep. Thanks for pointing that out. And reiterating it. It's important. An important part of the great American experiment. At least for now, we are still free to move to places that have laws that we agree with and support and move from places where we don't like the "tyranny of the majority".
CB
This is partly true. Christian anarco-fascist Austrian ideologues may take note that all you need is a pair of shoes to move to someplace with a Constitution that does not say "All persons born" or "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude," or "shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained..." Oh, them furriners might ask for ID and ancapistanis might want a visa, if they'll give you one. But libertarian spoiler votes cast in Florida can repeal some bad laws.
Whoever these "Christian anarco-fascist [sic] Austrian ideologues" are, they sure aren't in America, at least not to an extent that you believe.
Head to California, New York, etc. if you want your precious CRT and LGBTQ+ ideologies in your life.
"Shall not intentionally provide classroom instruction to students in grades 4 through 12 on sexual orientation or gender identity unless such instruction is either expressly required by state academic standards"
Why would it be taught without a requirement? Teachers often just input their favorite topics all willy-nilly into classes?
"Let's discuss algebra. If trans child x is opposed by trans hater y..."
"Teachers often just input their favorite topics all willy-nilly into classes?"
Apparently the bad ones do.
My son's algebra teacher is absolutely convinced, and teaches, that there's no such thing as "subtraction", only adding negative numbers. As a consequence, writing "2-2=0" gets your homework marked "wrong", you have to write "2+-2=0" to get it marked correct.
To this end, she left all their textbooks in a stack at the back of the room, still shrinkwrapped, and teaches from her own work sheets.
As you might imagine this is causing problems. Previously straight "A" students are struggling in her class. Thankfully, she's not being retained at the end of this academic year, though not just for that particular bit of idiocy.
Yes, teachers sometimes go off on weird tangents, and it can take a while for the administration to notice and deal with it.
I would need to look into it a lot more, but there does seem to be a point to thinking about adding negatives rather than subtracting. Addition is commutative where subtraction is anticommutative. I don’t know if there really would be any advantage in teaching that kind of thing in an algebra class. I’m just suggesting that it might not be as stupid as it sounds
That's not how the teacher is promoting it however. Subtraction is an acceptable way to represent the addition of negative numbers. She can't just mark students wrong if they use the minus mark to represent a result of lowering of the first operand using the other.
It's disgusting for you to defend such horrible education. Why do you leftists want this?
There's clearly not an advantage; She's teaching an 8th grade AP class in algebra to students who were all previously straight A students, and they've all been struggling. And helping my own son with his homework, I can see this BS nomenclature just introducing additional opportunities for errors to creep in, it has precisely no upsides for actually solving the problems.
The reason she's being let go is that she's been grossly departing from the approved curriculum, which is why she's not using the state approved textbooks, which do follow that curriculum.
"as the state considers an Education Department proposal to ban almost all instruction about LGBT issues in all grades"
why should government schools spend even one nanosecond of time on LGBT issues? that topic has no place in an institution whose performance on the basics like math, science, reading is so damned bad. and even if the government schools were good at their job this has no place.
The entire concept of calling this bill don't say gay is a farse. The only rthing that Democrtats do well is to spin the truth to make it sound outrageous when it makes perfect sense. Of course this is the same party that says an 8 year old should be able to decide on gender affirming care while at the same time saying you shouldn't be able to charge children (which they include 25 year olds in the term children) with murder. So which is it? Are kids muture at 8 years old or are they not mature at 25?
DeSantis is the gubernatorial politician the Lootveeg Von Meeses caucus candidate-impersonator said the LP should not oppose with a candidate lest the other, non-girl-bullying half of the looter Kleptocracy might get elected. To looters, electing THEIR looter is winning.
Or maybe, just maybe, DeSantis wants to put an end to teaching child sexuality in schools as well as CRT indoctrination, and let the taxpayers decide how to educate the children. Has that thought ever entered your head?
Transgenders is just another liberal media driven fad to enrich provider groups including healthcare and "social workers"..remember the "Attention deficit" emergency in the late 1970's? Every suburban white mom was convinced their kid had this disease (never proved biochemically) called "Attention deficit disorder.". Send the kid to psychologists and pump them full of drugs. Sound familiar?
And even the NYT just admitted (albeit without knowing) that the explosion of "transgenders" is a myth. Very few transvestites desire chemical or surgery to imitate the other gender. This is all just another "emergency" in society the grifter left comes up with but this time it depends on mutilation of kids for the benefit of pedos.
WTF is "chipping away at the web"? This joins my list of great mysteries of the universe, right up there with "Why are spambot posts always marked as edited?" and "Who the hell is Mike?"