Brickbat: No Need for Any Testing

Jane Carhuff crashed her car three times on the drive from her home to her doctor's office. When Puyallup, Washington, police officers and firefighters arrived, they found her incoherent. They tried to question her, and she mumbled something about being diabetic. Firefighters told the officers she wasn't having a medical episode and appeared to be intoxicated. So, the cops arrested her for driving under the influence without attempting any field sobriety tests. Her son bailed her out and took her to the emergency room the next day. According to a lawsuit, tests showed that she'd had a massive stroke, and the delay in getting her to the hospital meant that drugs used to reduce blood clots were of no use. The charges against Carhuff were dropped, and her family is now suing the city.

Comments

[Adans smith]

When I need a check up I always go to my local fire department.

[Adans smith]

Of course her condition could have been caused by the jab. Right Fist?

[Fist of Etiquette]

I wanted to say that.

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[sarcasmic]

Of course it was. Any health problems that happen to someone after getting vaccinated were caused by the vaccine.

[mad.casual]

I'm pretty sure I told this story at the time:

During lockdowns, mid-2019 before the vaxx, one of the local EMTs was talking, woefully, (through his mask, outside, 6 ft. apart, but upwind) about how they had to mask up and get this lady, suffering from DVT with/of COVID, out of a house. He was lamenting about how they were now discovering that COVID can/does have cardiac effects beyond just respiratory issues. I clarified that the woman was elderly and, since we weren't naming names or even which suburb she was in, that she was overweight too. She was. I mentioned that being old, overweight, and shut in your home/sedentary, were all contributing factors to DVT and that it would be impossible, if not flatly wrong, to ascribe causality to any one factor. He nodded his head in passive agreement, left the group, walked to his truck, pulled down his mask (down wind), and lit up a cigarette.

So, pro-/anti-vaxx, pro-/anti-lockdown, pro-/anti-public service, pro-/anti-EMT, pro-/anti-COVID propagandizing, which team is yours?

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[Chumby]

What a stroke of good luck that authorities prevented her from crashing again. The prevented a potential Waukesha but in an autonomous zone of pajama wearing layabouts.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Wait, are the firemen and not the cops the ultimate bad guys here? Damn.

[Chumby]

The firefighters might get hosed.

[mad.casual]

If you wade into every story with a BOAF SIDEZ mentality, eventually everyone is going to end up as bad guys.

[sarcasmic]

That's right. It's better to put on blinders and pretend your team can do no wrong while hurling insults at anyone who dares to have an open mind.

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[mad.casual]

I didn't say my team can do no wrong, did you say that your team can do no wrong?

[sarcasmic]

I don't have a team.

[mad.casual]

Then why do you assume I said mine can do no wrong, let alone that I even have one?

[sarcasmic]

"If you wade into every story with a BOAF SIDEZ mentality, eventually everyone is going to end up as bad guys."

The implication is that it is better to have a one side mentality so one side (your team) ends up being the good guys.

[mad.casual]

The implication is that it is better to have a one side mentality so one side (your team) ends up being the good guys.

If you're predisposed to the reductionism of strictly good/bad outcomes and good/bad people, or less, yes. Otherwise, there are good outcomes, bad outcomes, and all sorts of outcomes in between... good people, bad people, and all sorts of people in between... people who can effect good/bad/other outcomes, people who can't, and all sorts of outcomes in between... and all the countless permutations of circumstances, peoples' morals, and abilities woven together by those factors.

So, what's the desired outcome given the facts? Fire the EMTs for a misdiagnosis? Convict the cops of negligent, uh, non-treatment for the condition they didn't and aren't necessarily trained to diagnose? Conduct more EMT/Police training on combo-diabetic/stroke/car crash victim handling? Draw up more policy? Forgive or just reprimand the cops and the firemen so that there's more public money to give to Carhuff? Where are you at on this?

[sarcasmic]

Cops should have tested for intoxication. If they had then she would have gone to the hospital, not the jail.

[Chumby]

sarc’s car has an ignition disabling breathalyzer system. It gets few road miles per year.

[Jerry B.]

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The fact that they keep doing it is strong evidence that they sometimes get a hit. And I don't mean a click, I mean some sucker going all the way to letting them have direct deposit access to their main bank account.

You're thinking not one in 10,000 readers is that stupid. True. One in 10,000 is more than enough to make it a profitable business.

[Chumby]

Could be a form of heckler’s veto.

[Ed]

I think once your contact form url gets on a list, the crank turns automatically. The spammers don't know or care about Reason subscribers any more than the auto dialers calling my home phone line know or care that I don't want my debt magically reduced to zero.

[Don't look at me!]

Not certain. You notice they are edited

[defaultdotxbe]

That doesn't mean they aren't bots. I've noticed on a lot of comment sites the link scrubbers only run when the comment is posted, not edited, so that just may be a normal process to ensure the links get in.

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[mad.casual]

without attempting any field sobriety tests

I'm no doctor, or a firemen, and I've never attempted a field sobriety test while suffering a stroke. Something tells me the outcome doesn't change much.

Also, was she actually a diabetic? It's really a tragedy she suffered a stroke but if she's diabetic and says she's diabetic I'm dubious that anything other than suffering a stroke inside an ER would've produced a significantly different outcome.

Thankfully, no one else was hurt in any one of the three crashes. Wait, we don't have that detail. No one else was actually hurt, right ChuckyO?

[Social Justice is neither]

What does being diabetic have to do with having a stroke? The symptoms or emergency situations look completely different so I can see the responders believing that was used as an excuse to shield a drunk driver from consequences.

[swillfredo pareto]

I can see the responders believing that was used as an excuse to shield a drunk driver from consequences.

Not to mention that her decisions, regardless of the circumstances, were reckless. If she was aware enough to be driving, she should have been aware enough to pull over and call 911.

The part where she was arrested does not bathe the state in glory, however.

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[mad.casual]

The part where she was arrested does not bathe the state in glory, however.

The people performing the arrest were not the same people performing the diagnosis and I've been duly informed that if the officers had shot her with a gun that the armorer had informed them was unloaded, no negligent manslaughter charges should be filed. Even if the same armorer's poor diagnosis resulted in 3 other ADs and there was no real need for the officers to be drawing their weapons.

[mad.casual]

The fuck?

Do you mean 'What does being a diabetic have to do with having a stroke rather than being systematically causative of and/or acutely exacerbating the stroke?' or do you mean 'Besides having the exact same symptoms of confusion/agitation, headache, dizziness, slurred speech, trouble understanding, seizures/convulsions, nausea, and blurred vision what does hypoglycemia (or inebriation... or collision trauma/TBI) have to do with a stroke?'

[Foo_dd]

some of the symptoms of a diabetic event are similar, like dizziness, slurred speech.... petty much the same parts that look like being drunk. (also, diabetics have about twice the risk of having a stroke because it damages blood vessels.)

[Spiritus Mundi]

Trust the experts.

[Dillinger]

should someone so incapacitated not be taken to a hospital before a jail in most instances?

[mad.casual]

Brickbat. We don’t get to know how incapacitated she was, whether she was actually diabetic or even hypoglycemic in addition to having a stroke or even whether she killed 3 other people in 3 separate accidents. That’s not the point. The point is these cops and firefighters are guilty of locking a stroke victim up to, potentially but not actually, die.

And you should be outraged or flabbergasted or… something… by that.

[Dillinger]

it doesn't make me want to burn things but wtf they can't help a lady without being dicks?

[mad.casual]

Are you imagining they bounced her head off the hood of the squad car? She hit 3 cars and got arrested, what precisely is the dick move there?

[Foo_dd]

you know there is a link you can click to learn all those details, right?

nah..... easier just to assume things not in evidence and get pissy because someone is pointing out that cops can be pretty fucking heartless and stupid.

[mad.casual]

What, exactly, did I assume? I haven't accused anyone except Chuck for anything other than painting an incomplete or slanted picture. An accusation that you corroborate by saying we should go to the source.

Did I say she hit someone or did I say that we, in the context of the Brickbat, don't get to know.

It's pretty clear that you're the one operating off of facts not in evidence.

[Foo_dd]

hahahhaahahhahahahaha..... you are such a pathetic piece of shit. you go on another thread to try and distort the fuck out of the actual story, but you want to pretend this bit of drivel was not uninformed and reflective partisan BS..... you even tried to call into question if she was diabetic before learning anything.

[mad.casual]

Fun with facts (or lack thereof):

Besides the unusual migraines that prompted her to take a sick day, everything seemed fine for Jane Carhuff as she pulled away from her Puyallup home to go to the doctor in November 2019.

So, entirely possible, if not likely, that she was suffering the stroke well before she got in the car and that, per anyone who's been around anyone who had a stroke, "The damage had already been done." before anyone arrived on the scene.

Seems increasingly like it would take a lightning bolt or other no-shit act of God for portions of this forum to grant anyone, besides Alec Baldwin, the slightest bit of leeway, let alone wholly presume their innocence.

It's unfortunate she had a stroke. It's pretty generally unfortunate when people have strokes. It's pretty clear that the cops and firemen didn't cause the stroke and the proposition that they exacerbated it or precluded any specific better outcome is speculative at best.

[Foo_dd]

there is a 3-4hr window to administer drugs to bust up the clot that drastically reduces the damage. them taking her to jail prevented that from happening. they arrested her from the waiting room of a clinic where she would have ended up getting treated quick enough to have her probably get back to life pretty close to as normal if they had not intervened. (personally, i would think a person being at a medical clinic MIGHT lend some weight to the possibility of it being a medical condition.)

good on you for bothering to read the link..... it's too bad it was just to try and find something to twist to pretend the cops actions were "no big deal."

[mad.casual]

there is a 3-4hr window to administer drugs to bust up the clot that drastically reduces the damage.

Are you saying that in the world where you’re a doctor, the same world where nobody ever drops dead of a stroke or succumbs to a stroke and dies within minutes, even before EMTs can arrive on the scene or in the real world where you’re not a doctor and people do drop dead and/or suffer irreparable damage within minutes?

Tell me, in your fantasy world, is it a magic pill that miraculously cures them of the stroke and any damage it may have caused or is it like this one where it’s a more laborious process of gradually ramping up DOACs until the clot breaks or the patient bleeds to death, all the while incurring damage?

Because, in either world and many, many others, the statement “We could’ve done more if only we’d gotten to her sooner.” is virtually always true (except in the cases where it isn’t).

I posted it to sarc, but I’ll offer the pretty much the same to you so you can feel free to answer: So, what’s the desired outcome given the facts? Fire the EMTs for a misdiagnosis? Convict the cops of negligent, uh, non-treatment for the condition they didn’t and aren’t necessarily trained to diagnose? Conduct more EMT/Police training on combo-diabetic/stroke/car crash victim handling? Draw up more policy? Forgive or just reprimand the cops and the firemen so that there’s more public money to give to Carhuff? Where are you at on this? Just bitch?

[Foo_dd]

JFC, you are an idiot.

since you bothered to read the link, tell me..... did she drop and die within minutes? or did the police cause diagnosis and treatment to be delayed until the DOCTORS said it had been too long to administer the clock breaking medicine?

what would i want? seems pretty simple that when faced with a potential medical crisis you get that shit checked out. if that needs to be put into policy, then the policies they have suck. they found out from people at her home that she went to the doctor.... she said she was having a medical issue, when they got her AT THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE..... and they took one quick blood sugar test and decided she was drunk...

[mad.casual]

JFC, you are an idiot.

So, not presenting evidence that this is the world where you are in fact a doctor, safe to assume you’re not a doctor and, despite my being an idiot, or not, you didn’t fool me with your incorrect diagnosis.

So now the question again, for clarity, what do we do about people issuing false or incorrect diagnoses?

[Foo_dd]

“So now the question again, for clarity, what do we do about people issuing false or incorrect diagnoses?”

so… you basically ignored everything I said…. like the fact that those who issued the diagnosis have more experience and qualifications than both I and YOU. dipshits like you will cry some bullshit about the person calling you out nor being a doctor….. and then will pretend you have better qualifications than the doctors quoted in the actual story.

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