The Myth of Wild Nature and Creating a New Form of Paradise
A review of the new book Tickets For The Ark, by Rebecca Nesbit

Earlier this month, a "landmark U.N. biodiversity agreement" was adopted by delegates from 190 countries at the Fifteenth Conference of Parties (COP15) of the U.N. Convention on Biological Diversity in Montreal. The chief goal of the new Global Biodiversity Framework (GBF) is that "the integrity, connectivity and resilience of all ecosystems are maintained, enhanced, or restored, substantially increasing the area of natural ecosystems by 2050." The GBF asserts that around 25 percent of assessed plant and animal species are threatened, suggesting that around 1 million species may already face eventual extinction unless action is taken.
The GBF specifies that by 2030, 30 percent of Earth's lands, oceans, coastal areas, and inland waters are "effectively conserved" and that restoration be completed or underway on at least 30 percent of degraded terrestrial, inland waters, and coastal and marine ecosystems. Currently, 17 percent and 10 percent of the world's terrestrial and marine areas respectively are under protection. In addition, the GBF aims to reduce annual subsidies harmful to biodiversity (e.g., biofuels, fisheries, fossil fuels) by $500 billion; and to cut food waste in half by 2030.
Ecologist Rebecca Nesbit in her new book, Tickets For The Ark: From Wasps to Whales – How Do We Choose What To Save?, launches a sustained frontal attack on the "myth of wild nature." Nesbit hammers home the absolutely correct point that there is no objective scientific standard providing some kind of value-neutral ecological baseline toward which conservation should aim. Since there is no goal or end state toward which any particular ecosystem is heading, who is to say that landscapes and ecosystems modified by human activities are somehow inferior?

"Ideas about pristine nature invoke a state that nature was in before humans affected it," Nesbit notes. "The trouble is that humans have played a role in shaping nature for roughly 2.5 million years." She explains that species and ecosystems do not have intrinsic value. Instead, humans confer value on them. This realization "should be liberating," she argues, because it makes us "free to discuss logically what we should save and why, and not just fight an anti-extinction battle that is doomed to failure." Nesbit notes that "The resources we dedicate to conservation will never be enough to prevent all extinctions, and we are forced to choose our priorities." As she makes plain, it's tradeoffs all of the way down.
Consequently, her goal isn't to tell readers how we should choose what to save. Instead, she provides a series of case studies showing that human choices guided by our ethical and aesthetic values are inevitable regarding biological conservation.
Let's take a look at a few of the conservation tradeoffs that Nesbit highlights. For example, due to centuries of sheep grazing, the prehistoric birch forests that once covered Norway's craggy mountains have been replaced by meadows. Many Norwegians prefer the hiking and skiing opportunities and magnificent views made possible by sheep meadows to dense birch forests. "This recent baseline for what the natural world should look like has no more moral relevance than a prehistoric baseline, yet it is the form of nature that Norway now aspires to protect," she notes.
Another example is the effort to preserve the flightless brown and white striped Guam rail. That bird was driven to near extinction by introducing brown tree snakes to the island, which ate its chicks and eggs. In 1987, the 22 remaining rails were put in a captive breeding facility. The good news is that rails from the captive breeding project have now been released on snake-free islands near Guam where they have established self-sustaining populations.
Nesbit, however, asked the biologists overseeing rail conservation what happened to the Guam rail louse that lived only on that species. As standard practice, the conservationists had cleared the captured birds of their parasites, thus bringing about the extinction of that parasitic insect. Is the rail more valuable than the louse? And who says so? Conservationists cannot avoid such questions as they choose among species to try to save some from extinction.
Conflicts of values are inherent in conservation. "The people who benefit from wildlife protection are seldom the ones who pay the price," Nesbit observes. "Different people and wildlife benefit from different management, so inevitably there will be opposing outlooks. But it's an advance if, at least, we recognize that there is no historic baseline to aspire towards." She illustrates how opposing outlooks played out in with the case of seals versus salmon in Scotland's Moray Firth.
Seals compete with local fishers for the salmon, so fishers were licensed by the Scottish government to kill seals. On the other hand, tour operators argued for protecting the seals that thousands of visitors came to see in the wild. While no one side was entirely happy, a series of stakeholder discussions led to an agreement in which fishers could cull "rogue" seals.
"Dispensing with the idea that there is an objective 'natural' state of nature opens up huge possibilities for what conservation can achieve," she argues. Among the possibilities is using biotechnology to install a blight-resistant wheat gene in American chestnuts. Literally, billions of these forest giants succumbed to an introduced fungus in the 20th century. The new blight-resistant trees could be restored to their native range in the Appalachian Mountains. Even more ambitiously, biotechnology could combine the recently decoded genetics of extinct wooly mammoths with those of Asian elephants to restore them to the Arctic.
Also, Nesbit urges us to free "ourselves from the shackle of believing that species 'belong' only in their past ranges" so that we can "open up possibilities for assisted colonizations." Conservationists could move creatures threatened with extinction in their home ranges to others where they would be protected and allowed to thrive. For example, Nesbit notes that Chinese water deer are declining in their native Asian range but are expanding in various parts of Europe.
Nesbit also stands firmly against eco-colonialism. The GBF's goal of protecting 30 percent of the world's landscapes and seascapes must not become instances of what Nesbit calls "fortress conservation," in which local people are banished from their lands and livelihoods. "With Indigenous lands representing about a quarter of the Earth's land surface, there is huge potential for synergy between wildlife conservation and upholding Indigenous rights," argues Nesbit. She cites a recent World Bank study that found community-managed forests are more effective at reducing deforestation than strictly protected areas. Hopefully, the signatories to the GBF will uphold its commitments toward "recognizing and respecting the rights of indigenous peoples and local communities, including over their traditional territories."
Nesbit concludes, "Now that we have shaken off the idea of an unobtainable 'pure' nature, we can embrace the possibilities that come from celebrating nature in its many forms. We're not doomed to simply mourn a paradise lost, we're free to create a new form of paradise." Let's get at it.
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Merry Kiss-a-Moose!
(IF you can find one to kiss, that is. They’re not TOO endangered yet, are they?)
The moose that appreciate being kissed are rare.
I’m wondering if he got consent.
Sqrlsy’s not big on personal choice lately.
Sᴛᴀʀᴛ ᴡᴏʀᴋɪɴɢ ғʀᴏᴍ ʜᴏᴍᴇ! Gʀᴇᴀᴛ ᴊᴏʙ ғᴏʀ sᴛᴜᴅᴇɴᴛs, sᴛᴀʏ-ᴀᴛ-ʜᴏᴍᴇ ᴍᴏᴍs ᴏʀ ᴀɴʏᴏɴᴇ ɴᴇᴇᴅɪɴɢ ᴀɴ ᴇxᴛʀᴀ ɪɴᴄᴏᴍᴇ… Yᴏᴜ ᴏɴʟʏ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴘᴜᴛᴇʀ ᴀɴᴅ ᴀ ʀᴇʟɪᴀʙʟᴇ ɪɴᴛᴇʀɴᴇᴛ ᴄᴏɴɴᴇᴄᴛɪᴏɴ… Mᴀᴋᴇ $80 ʜᴏᴜʀʟʏ ᴀɴᴅ ᴜᴘ ᴛᴏ $13000 ᴀ ᴍᴏɴᴛʜ ʙʏ ғᴏʟʟᴏᴡɪɴɢ ʟɪɴᴋ ᴀᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ʙᴏᴛᴛᴏᴍ ᴀɴᴅ sɪɢɴɪɴɢ ᴜᴘ… Yᴏᴜ ᴄᴀɴ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ʏᴏᴜʀ ғɪʀsᴛ ᴄʜᴇᴄᴋ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ᴏғ ᴛʜɪs ᴡᴇᴇᴋ:) GOOD LUCK.:)
Just open the link————————————–>>OPEN>> USA JOBS ONLINE
A moose once bit my sister
They can be pretty nasty.
Can a Muslim eat the leg of a moose (a moose-limb)… Are moose-limbs “halal”… Or would such eating constitute cannibalism? A moose-lim eating a moose-limb == cannibalism? Prove or disprove!
PS, I hope that you and your sister and your entire family bit that moose right back, and ate up every scrap of it! They DO chew their cud, ya know, so they should be Kosher-Halal-etc. and what-snot!!! (Discounting the road-killed-possumible criminal count of cannibalism-jism, that ism).
Was she karving her initials in the moose?
On the bright side, there are lots of asses that enjoy a good smooch.
Such ass EVERY boss and politician EVER known to humanoids?!?! (AND some members of the opposite sex, ass I recall from my younger, dating years.)
Only kiss the moose from Frostbite Falls, but watch out for the flying squirrel.
Hokey Smoke, Bullwinkle! 🙂
With Moose and Squirrel together can Boris and Natasha be too far away?
Do you recall when the nation-wide media and public were entranced by Sarah Palin, who was UTTERLY amazing, ’cause she knew how to field dress a moose?
I would ask that you cast your eyes even yet further back into the past, and consider that Bill Clinton, even FAR more impressively, knew how to field UN-dress a moose!!!
Natasha wants plugging from all three. She needs man who is “Strong Like Bull!” 🙂
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https://WWW.WORKSCLICK.COM
Because nothing has ever gone extinct before.
Everyone in China wears a mask all the time, and a great many people there are now sick.
Explain why anyone thinks masks stop viral illnesses .
Because!
They don’t stop viruses, but they show you’re not an icky republican.
^This is an actual thing.
And very important, since progressives have told us the prefer not to speak to undesirable classes, and would be devastated if their daughter married one.
Liberals have taken the social high school project The Wave and applied it to society.
Progressives have taken that first, naive and delusional passion about fixing the world that some high school age activists get and applied it to society.
https://twitter.com/FatEmperor/status/1607116753296818176?t=c7TstryISqbjonBRco0txg&s=19
Just like the disgusting dancing docs in the West – is there some secret rule that you have to ridicule the victims of your medical tyranny – even as you torture them with your unscientific flu nonsense?
[Link]
Fuck you that’s why.
I mostly wear one because it protects me against having crazy people yelling at me.
Guns work too
The social distancing/isolation and the lockdowns does weaken people’s immune systems, making the outbreaks worse when the lockdown eventually ends. Sort of like the “tripledemic” in the US of COVID, flu, and RSV. More like quadrupledemic now, including strep.
Wanna bet the CDC and NIH are working on a shut down forever program?
Unfortunately it won’t be the CDC and NIH that are shut down forever.
Conserving nature isn’t the goal. Creating a facist new world order (the UNs words not mine) is the goal.
The fact that you haven’t realized this (despite literally being told this, look at unescio 2030 agenda put out by the UN)
Further shows how behind the curve you are
Bill Gates has openly said we will have to learn to live with less.
He already tried that in the internet. Remember Internet Explorer anyone? He wants to bring that shit to real life.
Imagine no search results.
You know, ten years ago what the good reverend wrote would sound completely insane. Like a Bond movie villain organization.
Now it’s like “Yeah, pretty much”.
The thing is the UN literally said that was their goal.
Seals compete with local fishers for the salmon, so fishers were licensed by the Scottish government to kill seals. On the other hand, tour operators argued for protecting the seals that thousands of visitors came to see in the wild. While no one side was entirely happy, a series of stakeholder discussions led to an agreement in which fishers could cull “rogue” seals.
That’s not even a question. Kill the motherfucking seals. Salmon mmmmmmmmm.
“Kill the motherfucking seals.”
Seal blubber. Mmmmm
I have eaten seal. I don’t need to again.
To each, their own.
Hard pass.
Nuke the gay baby whales while we are at it
What are we, chopped liver? – the harp seals
“Why do ýou assume we are chopped liver? In what way do we resemble chopped liver?” –Harp Sealions. 😉
For Jesus? The bumper sticker isn’t complete without that. 🙂
Draining the Black Sea should be the Biodiversity Convention’s first priority. Rewilding the seabed with giant sloths, mammoths and extinct carnivores resurrected from fossil DNA should be job two.
If the Mediterranean hadn’t cut through the Bosphorus 9,000 years ago, thousands of species would have survived and the Middle East would not be awash in Deluge mythologies
With the Crimea once more high and dry, and no water for submarines, a little saber-tooth rattling should send Putin’s Neanderthals packing back to the caves of Denisovia.
And then restore the forests of NYC.
Then restore the DC literal swamp
and remove all the buildings from Brussels.
I like the way you think!
Indeed! 🙂
Hmmmm … got a question for you, since you seem to know more about this than me. What about all the rivers flowing into the Black Sea, the Danube and the Ukrainian and Russian ones, and probably some from the Caucasus and Turkey too?
Would they fill the Black Sea up again on their own, would they maintain a much smaller Black Sea, or would their contribution be so small that there wouldn’t be more than small creeks by the time the rivers got to the bottom?
The oceanography and underwater archaeology suggest the Euxine Depression hosted a big saline central swamp where river water evaporated, as with the Aral Sea
For another modern if minor example, read about the Salton Sea in southern California.
Yeah, we talk about “drain the swamp”, but swamp is the natural condition of the District of Columbia. Let’s REFILL the swamp!
As long as we are talking actual swamp. Plenty of water and man eating alligators. Maybe a few bull sharks to spice things up.
Fewer financial parasites and more actual predators!!
Wonder if eating a lobbyist would make a shark or gator sick?
Cannibalism is a sin, so serves Dundee and Jaws right!
“…the Middle East would not be awash in Deluge mythologies.”
But it was a real flood, if one happened to be there. Just ask Gilgamesh.
The Tigris and Euphrates are flood prone as the Mississippi, but Gilgamesh came along and rebuilt flood damaged Uruk a millennium after its foundation.
The open question is the degree to which the creation of the Black Sea lived on in memory to be invoked as the Big One when river floods re-arranged the Mesopotamian landscape on a regional scale.
Dueling Mesopotamian creation myths are somewhat analogous to the conflict between Native American claims to autochthonous, and the fact of their arrival from post-ice age Asia
“The open question is the degree to which the creation of the Black Sea lived on in memory to be invoked as the Big One when river floods re-arranged the Mesopotamian landscape on a regional scale.”
Yes, the flood mentioned in Gilgamesh may, or may not, have anything to do with the Strait of Bosphorus. I was being cute. As for me, I suspect the creation of the Black Sea may have influenced .the deluge myth to a greater extent than seasonal, and at least somewhat more predictable, and more local, floods.
Some of the Native American myths are quite interesting. One of my favorites is a creation myth — “Rabbit Boy” — from the Lakota.
The legacy of enormous glacial meltwater lake across the Holarctic occasionally draining at the start of the Holocene would be enough.
Indeed. Another candidate for the “Great Flood.”
Undoubtably, some of these actual events inspired the stories and lore that have filtered down. But distorted just a bit by generations of retelling, like what you might hear about the 1906 California earthquake as retold by a class of 2nd graders who heard their parents complain about a bad Hollywood movie interpretation.
“Undoubtably, some of these actual events inspired the stories and lore that have filtered down. But distorted just a bit by generations of retelling, like what you might hear about the 1906 California earthquake as retold by a class of 2nd graders who heard their parents complain about a bad Hollywood movie interpretation.”
Yep. Generations of retelling and editing the stories: the 1906 Earthquake. Homer. The Bible. Just a few examples.
And unto Noahnook of the North the Lord said:
“Out of whalebone thou shalt build a Kyark 300 cubits long, and with muktuk caulk it, for Amazon does not deliver gopher wood, as it is an endangered species.
+++
My favorite example is beaver dams. If humans build a similar dam out of trees and mud, that is immoral, simply because humans built it, regardless of whether this was modern humans, stone age homo sapiens, or million year old hominids.
Frankly, I don’t understand why some humans hate the human species. I don’t mean the control freaks who treat them as useful idiots; they are easy to understand. But the people who go out of their way to destroy works of humans, like power stations and pipelines and railroads, what is wrong with them? Why is technology evil, when it makes life so much better? They ought to be in the DSM.
This looks like a good place to re-post this here below…
Gaia-lovers think that humans catastrophes from Gaia are GOOD, ’cause they wipe out humans, who are nasty parasites to Gaia; I kid you not!
To prove my last point about the humans-haters, I give you this:
Bill McKibben is an un-reformed, 200-proof, human-hating asshole!
“At its extreme, green ideology expresses itself in utter contempt for humanity. Reviewing Bill McKibben’s The End of Nature in the Los Angeles Times, National Park Service research biologist David M. Graber concluded with this stunning passage: ‘Human happiness, and certainly human fecundity, are not as important as a wild and healthy planet. I know social scientists who remind me that people are part of nature, but it isn’t true. Somewhere along the lineat about a billion years ago, maybe half thatwe quit the contract and became a cancer. We have become a plague upon ourselves and upon the Earth. It is cosmically unlikely that the developed world will choose to end its orgy of fossil-energy consumption, and the Third World its suicidal consumption of landscape. Until such time as Homo sapiens should decide to rejoin nature, some of us can only hope for the right virus to come along.’
“It is hard to take such notions seriously without sounding like a bit of a kook yourself. But there they arecalmly expressed in the pages of a major, mainstream, Establishment newspaper by an employee of the federal government. When it is acceptable to say such things in polite intellectual company, when feel-good environmentalists tolerate the totalitarians in their midst, when sophisticates greet the likes of Graber with indulgent nods and smiles rather than arguments and outrage, we are one step further down another bloody road to someone’s imagined Eden. All the greens need is an opportunity and a Lenin.”
From “Free Minds & Free Markets”, Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, 1993, which is a compilation of 25 years of articles from Reason magazine, this one being “The Green Road to Serfdom”, April 1990, by Virginia I. Postrel.
Proggie brain is generally addicted to self-righteous and smug coercion of others. It is also self-destructive of humans generally, as noted above. Then it’s also hypocritical, in that, if they REALLY believed that human life is a blight upon the planet, they’d just go off and commit suicide. But no, THEY personally aren’t part of the blight; those people over THERE are the blight! So proggie brain is pretty stupid AND evil…
Contard brain, in SOME flavors (hyper-nationalism, militarism, self-righteous religion, xenophobia, gayophobia, etc.) can be just as bad, I will admit that. Contards don’t have as much “traction” (especially in media and academia) right now, THAT is the big difference!
Reason.co m link for the above: https://reason.com/1990/04/01/the-green-road-to-serfdom/
Fuck off and die, spastic asshole.
^this, and a Merry Christmas, Sevo.
Fascist fuckheads ALL AROUND, and EVERYWHERE do yea verily AGREE that humanoids are a disease parasite befestering the Planet Gaia! I knew it all along! THANKS for the confirmations!!!!
My special wish to you this joyous Christmas, Sqrlsy, is that you go fuck yourself.
But you like fascists when they’re on your side.
Fuck off and die, asshole. Make the world a better place, grant ML’s wish.
Gracias and Feliz Navidad back atcha.
Is SQRLSY denying his lflat-tailed cousins’s prodigious carbon footprint?
An average Castor faber‘s damn damming submerges a hectare, turning relatively bright land surface into black water.
The resulting megawatts of radiative solar forcing equal the CO2 impact of a half dozen SUV’s
In San Fransico, there are rigidly enforced building height and footprint limits to avoid blocking the views, but you can plant a tree which does exactly the same thing with no limits on the size of the tree in 3 dimensions.
“…you can plant a tree which does exactly the same thing with no limits on the size of the tree in 3 dimensions.”
No self-respecting tree would allow itself to be planted in Frisco.
I dunno. The giant one on the Embarcadero with all the parrots living in it is pretty darn cool.
“I dunno. The giant one on the Embarcadero with all the parrots living in it is pretty darn cool.”
I was being facetious, of course. I grew up in the bay area. But to continue with the facetiousness, that tree on the Embarcadero is a “clinger,” and the parrots are free-loading immigrants.
Why is technology evil, when it makes life so much better?
I believe they have this romantic notion of being one with Mother Nature with flowers and bees and rainbows and unicorn farts. When I talk to such people I ask if they’d like to live without deodorant and antibiotics. It usually shuts them up.
Unfortunately, I’ve known a few green types who are fine with not using deodorant.
True.
If’n ye HATE technology, sneer at yer house, sleep in the yard instead of the climate-controlled indoors, and let the bugs bite yer butt while ye sleep naked in the grass (up yer ass), and THANK Momma Nature! Can I have ANOTHER, please, Momma Nature!?
(Much mostly-muddy-and-moldy sediments stolen from P. J. O’rourke.)
“whether this was modern humans, stone age homo sapiens, or million year old hominids.”
Stone age homo sapiens were modern humans. The stone age ended less than ten thousand years ago, a blink of an eye in terms of human development.
trueman can be both smug and pedantic! Who knew?
Are we not men?!? We are Sevo!
Hey Smegmalung!
Don’t you have more important things to do, instead of thread-shitting here? As San Fran’s foremost homeless hobo, couldn’t you be doing your “squeegee” racket, fighting with the other bums, pooping in the streets, and yelling insane, deluded insults at passers-by?
Smegmalung’s next gig in Gay Ol’ San Fran: Burglary, which San Fran’s media suggests should now be tolerated!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/san-francisco-chronicle-ripped-for-asking-if-residents-should-tolerate-burglaries
San Francisco Chronicle ripped for asking if residents should ‘tolerate burglaries’
Next on the Hit Parade for the San Francisco Chronicle: asking if residents should tolerate (even celebrate maybe?), not just burglary, butt also ‘child buggery’ by Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
Looks like Sevo has an unwanted fan.
Sqrlsy is everyone’s unwanted fan.
He fell off of mute when the ‘great no-reply’ disaster occurred, and it looked like his narcissistic, obnoxious word salads might be part of the landscape, but you can re-mute the spastic asshole, refresh, and there’s a gray block there; exactly what that pile of shit should be.
Spastic asshole? Fuck off and die.
SHOW US how it’s done, Sevo the Pedo! Fuck off and die! Else you are a HYPOCRITE! (Do ass I say and not ass I do, right, asshole?)
Pedo? SPB2 is MIA there, Sqrlsy. And I don’t see Chemtard Conformist Progressive today either to defend child porn as free speech.
Yes, and so what? All had two genders. All had opposable thumbs.
“All had two genders.”
Russian and German have a neutral gender. Many languages dispense with gender entirely. Like Japanese where nouns are associated not with a gender but a season of the year.
Amazing, you switch from people to languages as if no one would notice, just like you switch topics the moment you’re challenged.
Consistently inconsistent. What a trait to be proud of!
That was a challenge? You’re challenging my assertion that stone age man was modern man? And what is with this urge to drag your tranny toilet hobby horse into comment you make?
“That was a challenge?…”
To avoid being an asshole. You failed.
Yes, but all of them have two sexes.
But which two? And who gets to pee in the tranny toilet?
Male and female, and it’s called a “unisex” toilet.
And yet they are the same people who want to force everyone else to isolate, wear masks, shut down their business, and take experimental vaccines, if it means those steps might reduce their own odds of death from 0.1% to something lower. Or even if those steps don’t work, but make them feel safer. If they see humanity as a pestilence, why do they exclude themselves?
“… and take experimental vaccines…”
To hell with FORCING anyone, ever, to take experimental vaccines! Agreed!
Now me and mine? I would have been ECSTATICALLY OVERJOYED to take experimental vaccines within weeks of when western scientists got hod of the “Kung Fu flu” virus, and countered it!!! And shit!!! Yet we ALL had to WAIT 3/4 of a year or more, AFTER our best and brightest had fingered it all out, to PROVE beyond ANY doubt, that NO fluffy bunnies, anywhere, in ANY conceivable parallel universe, could EVER be hurt by said experimental vaccines!!! My body? Hell NO! My body belongs to Government Almighty! And FUCK that!!! WHEN will our masters allow ME to decide?
The chief goal of the new Global Biodiversity Framework (GBF) is that “the integrity, connectivity and resilience of all elitist global schemes for the control and impoverishment of the peasantry by 2050.”
They’re hoping that billions of the peasants will be dead by then.
These are the same people who wish to see wild horses running free across the western plains of America, like they did before the Europeans came.
+++
Or don’t want to manage their forests because the Indians didn’t routinely chop wood or do controlled burns or engage in agriculture. They don’t realize that the fauna itself has adapted to thousands of years worth of human management and when you completely stop managing the forest, you create conditions conducive to wildfires.
People cling to myths that Native Americans walked around subsisting on dead bark and grass and didn’t manipulate the natural world in the same way every other human society always has.
“They don’t realize that the fauna itself has adapted to thousands of years worth of human management and when you completely stop managing the forest, you create conditions conducive to wildfires.”
Human management? Don’t you mean mismanagement? Over the course of the millennia since humans arrived in North America and ‘managed’ the landscape almost all the mega fauna have been driven to extinction.
“…Over the course of the millennia since humans arrived in North America and ‘managed’ the landscape almost all the mega fauna have been driven to extinction.”
So what?
Smug, pedantic and a watermelon.
Some view the denial of history as a fountain of youth.
“Not to know what happened before you were born is to remain a child forever,”
So you’re proposing to send all the Indigenous people back to Siberia and bring back the mastodons? Is that still woke?
“So you’re proposing to send all the Indigenous people back to Siberia ”
No, I’m suggesting that the project of ‘managing nature’ is a fool’s errand and we should focus more on self management. The chances of success are infinitely greater.
“No, I’m suggesting that the project of ‘managing nature’ is a fool’s errand and we should focus more on self management…”
False dichotomy, asshole.
Indians DID burn forests to clear the undergrowth. They weren’t stupid.
Duh. I was making fun of that misconception.
Apologies!
They also burned fires to tame the prairies and keep the grasses low for the prey they preferred – bison.
Indian axemen were amply industrious, but stone axes are no better for tree felling than shaving: Look what the Iron Age did to the forests of Eastern Europe and the Ukraine
Just don’t say anything about nobal “native” Americans hunting the American mega fauna to extinction.
I guess the widespread human sacrifices and dining on their enemies was just an alternate but equally valuable variant of human culture.
Eating people is good for the environment!
Soylent green?
Soylent night,
Soylent night
Christmas bloggerel
Is rarely bright.
“These are the same people who wish to see wild horses running free across the western plains of America, like they did before the Europeans came.”
Not sure if this statement is satire, but on the chance that it isn’t: there were no horses in the Western Hemisphere before the Europeans arrived.
“Not sure if this statement is satire, but on the chance that it isn’t: there were no horses in the Western Hemisphere before the Europeans arrived.”
I am pretty sure it is satire. Horses actually evolved in the Americas. They were hunted to extinction about ten thousand years ago. The saber-tooth tiger, as well as a native type of cheetah, went extinct at about the same time, maybe in part due to over-hunting of the horses (a food source?) and climate change. Such extinction also results in anomalies in the natural world — such as the Pronghorn, which evolved its 50mph running speed in response to the cheetahs, which no longer exist. Evolution is interesting stuff, made even more-so by human activities.
“The saber-tooth tiger, as well as a native type of cheetah, went extinct at about the same time, maybe in part due to over-hunting of the horses (a food source?) and climate change.”
These big cats also preyed on humans which meant they were particularly troublesome. I think it was Bruce Chatwin who speculated the only with our domesticating and teaming up with canines that we were able to overcome the threat posed by saber toothed cats.
Well, the dog was domesticated around the same time the sabre-tooth went extinct, so maybe. On the other hand, seems our ancestors were up to killing mammoths, and it seems that humans, working together, would be more than able to handle a big cat. Maybe a combination?
Jefferson should stop making up hunting animals and get a feline DNA CRISPR kit.
Then he can design some of his own
Which is why the indigenous American peoples never got around to inventing the wheel – no draft animals to pull carts. Lest you think poorly of them for not inventing the wheel, they were smart enough to know that human sacrifice would appease the gods and chanting would drive out the evil spirits that caused diseases, things that we are only now getting around to accepting as the truth. Also that bugs are delicious and nutritious, that fossil fuels are the work of the Devil, that owning nothing is true freedom, and that subservience to the State is the noblest pursuit of Mankind.
How long before the winners of presidential elections gets to cut out the beating heart of the loser on top of a pyramid built by slaves on the ruins of the Capitol?
“Which is why the indigenous American peoples never got around to inventing the wheel – no draft animals to pull carts.”
That would be one reason. But, Native Americans did have “the wheel” — but it was only used on toys. For a long time, many Westerners thought the medieval Japanese didn’t use the wheel. This, too, is untrue. They had toys and figurines with wheels. The wheel also showed up late in Sub-Saharan Africa, and wasn’t much used until the 19th century.
Without roads, wheels are of limited value. Even with roads, wheels, and the tracks they leave (in unpaved roads),combined with rain, cause erosion problems.
Wheeled transport is only useful when you have a lot to carry. Indians didn’t; they got by with dogs as their largest pack animals because they didn’t have a lot of bulky heavy property to move.
60 kilograms was the weight carried by a donkey in South America. The arroba (@) was a weight unit equivalent to about 15 kilos. The symbol is now used in email addresses and also used to (you’ll like this) denote ambivalent sexuality. ie Chic@s instead of chicos and/or chicas.
And those in South America, along the Andes used Llamas for pack animals. Due to the types of roads they had, the wheel was not really a viable option.
And when humans and dinosaurs lived together in peace an harmony.
“And when humans and dinosaurs lived together in peace an harmony.”
And I am old enough to remember that!!
Well, did you wear an onion on your belt?
Pepperidge Farms remembers.
Thanks, Alley Oop.
At least until the ancestors of Harry Sinclair killed all the dinosaurs and turned them into gasoline.
Shhhh!…You’ll bring Ken Ham to the Reason Web Site! We’re Chock Full O’ Nuts enough already! 🙂
“This recent baseline for what the natural world should look like has no more moral relevance than a prehistoric baseline”
Can’t help but notice that the same nonsense is driving the climate change scam. We are supposed to believe that the climate that purportedly existed in the pre industrial age is some magical thing that earths entire population must aspire to. Meanwhile we have to ignore the fact that the planet has been much hotter and much colder in it’s history and humans have adapted quite well.
I don’t often give Ron a compliment but thanks for the article.
The argument from the climate change people isn’t that the climate hasn’t or doesn’t change. Rather the speed at which it is changing is much faster than so-called “natural” changes in the climate. The end of the last ice age took a thousand or two years, while anthropogenic climate change is happening in a tenth of that time. They then assert that the speed of the change is too fast for nature to adapt.
If we can all agree that human activity is causing the climate to change, then we can perhaps agree that we’re going to have to adapt. The question becomes how. As a free-market minarchist I say the solutions should come from the bottom-up, while the climate warriors want top-down.
“s a free-market minarchist I say the solutions should come from the bottom-up,”
That’s not a solution. That’s just sloganeering.
This is bullshit.
That just means you have no imagination. Top down means a small number of people impose their ideas by force. The quality of the ideas could be crap, but that doesn’t matter because might makes right.
Bottom up means billions of people come up with ideas and the good ones win. What will those ideas be? Don’t know. But I can say with 100% certainty that they’ll be better than anything someone in government can come up with.
I still see little but trotting out shop worn slogans, and no solutions. Here for example:
“But I can say with 100% certainty that they’ll be better than anything someone in government can come up with.”
It was a government functionary that linked cholera to contaminated water supplies which led to reforms that saved many lives. Large scale projects that require coordination between many people like pyramid building, moon landing, or maintaining public health need governing, organizing and administering. Expecting them to arise organically and unplanned from the masses is unrealistic.
Google “I Pencil.”
Running a profitable pencil manufacturing business, or pyramid building or moon landing or maintaining public health requires the coordination of many individuals. It’s not a bottom up process where the pencils arise magically in an uncoordinated effort.
Bottom up might be a better way to account for changes in fashion or linguistic change. Such changes aren’t forced on anyone but they still require charismatic individuals to set the ball rolling. It’s arguable that the environmental movement was not initiated by any government force but Romantic poets like William Blake:
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon Englands mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!
And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?
Bring me my Bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!
I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land.
So you didn’t read it.
He might have tried, but the concepts were all so foreign he couldn’t understand them.
“So you didn’t read it.”
I have. It’s more sloganeering and gives us no more solution to the environmental issues we face than you have.
I’d like to see you cite one comment of yours that includes a citation and isn’t just “sloganeering”.
Saying “Only Top Men can do it!” isn’t sloganeering. It’s um…
requires the
coordinationcooperation of many individualsBig difference
Call it whatever you like but any enterprise where large groups of people are working together towards a goal requires planning, managing and administering. The pencils don’t appear from the uncoordinated and conflicting efforts of massive numbers of people.
And you still miss the point of I, Pencil. Spontaneous organization, what’s it mean?
More sloganeering, I reckon, as opposed to your “any enterprise where large groups of people are working together towards a goal requires planning, managing and administering” assertion and generalization without substance.
“And you still miss the point of I, Pencil. Spontaneous organization, what’s it mean?”
I get it. Pencils, pyramids, and rocket ships all arise spontaneously without planning, management, or administration. Especially government planning, government management or government administration.
Still waiting for the promised bottom up free market solution to the environmental issues we face.
Which specific environmental issues? Didn’t you admit last time you brought up climate change you didn’t know anything about it?
Yes it takes people at the pencil factory to acquire the necessary materials to make the pencil, but that’s it. They don’t need to know how the paint is made or where the wood comes from. Yet it’s all magically available thanks to markets. If they need more of something than is available, the price of that product increases, which encourages profit-minded people to produce more. It all happens without any oversight or organization.
As Hayek put it, the economy is a product of human action, not human design. Soon as people try to design it it goes to shit. See every non-capitalist country ever.
“I get it. Pencils, pyramids, and rocket ships all arise spontaneously without planning, management, or administration. Especially government planning, government management or government administration.”
No, you don’t “get it”, you are too fucking stupid to “get it” and too smug to accept that you are too fucking stupid to “get it”.
“Yes it takes people at the pencil factory to acquire the necessary materials to make the pencil, but that’s it.”
That’s it? Isn’t it enough? You’re the one trying to convince me that pencils arise unbidden by the uncoordinated efforts of billions of people. Now someone in a pencil factory has to go to the trouble of acquiring the makings of pencils?
” They don’t need to know how the paint is made or where the wood comes from. ”
What makes you think that? All paint is not the same. All wood is not the same. Ask anyone at a pencil factory and they’ll tell you the same. Knowing which paint and which wood to use is a matter of expertise.
” It all happens without any oversight or organization.”
Any successful company has oversight, organization, management, supervision at every step of the production process.
Are you one of the “two-bong-hit William Blakes” that P.J. O’Rourke talked about when discussing environmental issues? ????
I’ll answer William Blake’s questions:. No, No, No! God does not exist and Jesus never did either and if “England’s mountains green” don’t have threats of gunfire and bombing by practitioners of “The Religion of Peace and Compassion”™, then we can safely say that Jerusalem wasn’t built there.
M’Lady!
*Tips the apple on his head and runs.*
Did you know that London had three private fresh water systems at that same time? None government-controlled.
“London had three private fresh water systems”
I think you mean three private contaminated water systems. Hence the cholera.
Wrong! You don’t think at all, and you know less. Fresh water is still fresh water, even when contaminated. And of those three systems, only one was contaminated with cholera.
” Fresh water is still fresh water, even when contaminated.”
You missed your calling. You could have made a fortune in the business of providing people with water.
Fresh water as opposed to salt water, even if contaminated by something that’s not sea salt.
In a free market economy, even governing, organizing, and administering depends upon a bottoms-up approach.
If workers won’t work or do tasks properly for a particular manager, if stockholders (including workers who hold stock) don’t like the decisions of the C.E.O., if distributors and retail outlets don’t place orders and deliver on time, and if customers don’t buy the pencils, then the whole enterprise breaks down.
Chew on that eraser for awhile, Control-Freak Watermelon Rickshaw Boy!
billions of people come up with ideas and the good ones win
I can comfortably predict that individuals moving out of cities, uphill from the beaches, and toward water from the deserts would be some winning ideas (even if none of the bullshit actually comes to pass).
Sounds like a good idea even in the best of times!
“Bottoms up solutions?”. Ooooh, I like some of those! 🙂
The end of the last Ice Age saw ocean levels rise by 300 feet. Yet our Stone Age capable ancestors adapted and flourished, because warmer weather always helps humans to flourish. And yet we are supposed to tremble in fear that sea levels might rise by a foot in the next century, or that temperatures might rise by 2 degrees, despite all of our advanced technology.
Not only are you supposed to quake in fear, but you’re supposed to surrender all your freedoms to Top Men.
^+100000000…. “But the weather changes… That’s why!” /s
Had to find an excuse no matter how ridiculous it is….
“If we can agree” is a big assumption, and one that does not make the premise true. Overwhelming majorities of people have believed in all sorts of nonsense in past societies. “Adapting” to those beliefs, no mater the mechanism, then is nothing more than disruption and distortion to fulfill a fantasy. Ever played the “hot lava” game with a 4 year old?
“We are supposed to believe that the climate that purportedly existed in the pre industrial age is some magical thing that earths entire population must aspire to. ”
We can believe that the food crops humans rely on for survival thrive in a pre-industrial climate. Monkey around with this climate too much and we risk famine that might kill billions. There’s nothing magical about this. Plants and animals have adapted over millennia to fit into an environmental niche. Move them out of the niche and millennia of adaption goes down the tubes.
trueman seems to believe that adaptation stopped at some point. trueman: smug, pedantic, a watermelon and stupid, all in one package
The threat of real widespread famine ended about 7,000 years ago, when humans mastered agriculture.
That’s when the risk of famine started. Farming communities are fucked if their crops fail. Hunter Gatherers just target different prey or move if something gets scarce.
All human societies expand to the carrying capacity.
Hunter gatherers used the land so inefficiently that they only could support low population densities; high death rates (including from starvation) was an ongoing process.
Ah, but Hunter-Gatherer societies require quick mobility for everyone, including mother’s and children. The very old and the feeble of necessity, do not live long in this arrangement.
And with no knowledge of the nature of their prey and pickings, no domestication and ownership of the prey and pickings they pursue, Hunter-Gatherers have no means or incentive to maintain or increase their prey and pickings. They are even more limited than Farmer-Rancher societies.
It was called The Agricultural Revolution for a reason.
The plants we grow to eat are sensitive to their environment. Up to a hundred million died in climate related famines in the 19th century. What struck me about these famines was how quickly they killed off their victims. The wars of the 20th century took years and still never totted up the numbers that the famines in India and China etc managed in a matter of several months.
Modern famine only kill when governments don’t allow people to trade freely.
“Modern famine only kill when governments don’t allow people to trade freely.”
Nonsense. More empty sloganeering. The telegraph and the railroads brought free trade to India at a period during some of the worst famines experienced by the sub continent. The free market meant the price of grain rose beyond the means of the poorer Indians and millions of tons of grain were exported to Europe while Indians starved.
I don’t think we agree on what free trade means.
I mean supply and demand determine where the food goes. Free trade means that if an English buyer was willing to pay more than an Indian buyer, the food went to England. If you meant something else, forget the song and dance and spell it out.
That explains why only rich people eat.
And no poor people are fat!
The colonizers are typically richer than the colonized. The British were able to pay more for the grain than the Indians. Result: free market famine.
You moved the goalposts from modern capitalism to colonialism.
“You moved the goalposts from modern capitalism to colonialism.”
Because capitalists didn’t exist in Britain in the 19th century. And if they did, they certainly didn’t deal in grain from India. And if they did deal in grain from India, any famines, which never occurred anyway, can safely be blamed on the Queen.
Talk about goal-post moving! Ol’ Control-Freak Watermelon Rickshaw Boy did it several times in a single post!
By the way, what about India’s role in it’s own people’s starvation?
What about Indian children starving because cows roaming freely in the streets get first dibs on all crops, because Hinduism says Ol’ Bossie was Great-Grandma in a previous life?
What about the mis-allocation of labor wrought by Hindu India’s Caste system?
What about starvation wrought by India’s own Protectionist, Cronyist, Socialist, crack-pot economic policies, like when Mahatma Ghandi tries to get everybody spinning their own cloth at home instead of buying cheaper industrial-made cloth from abroad?
“Because capitalists didn’t exist in Britain in the 19th century. And if they did, they certainly didn’t deal in grain from India. And if they did deal in grain from India, any famines, which never occurred anyway, can safely be blamed on the Queen.”
Pretty sure the lying pile of lefty shit trueman thinks this is some sort of response; smug and stupid provides this sort of bullshit.
Asshole, do the world a favor; fuck off and die.
Well as usual you are just silly. Vegetation relies on carbon dioxide to thrive. The climate alarmists are actively seeking to lessen the CO2 in the atmosphere. Secondly if the billions of people on the planet today were relying on pre industrial agriculture to survive, none of us would even be here. Yeah you can believe that food crops that humans rely on thrived in a pre industrial climate. But when you say shit like that out loud you reveal that you are a fucking idiot.
“you reveal that you are a fucking idiot.”
That’s a chance I’m willing to take. I can’t complain as long as you keep reading my comments and deem them worth responding to.
we risk famine that might kill billions.
because Billions are incapable of feeding themselves even when the conditions are perfect.
“because Billions are incapable of feeding themselves ”
Not for lack of food. More than enough food is grown to feed everyone adequately. A billion suffer from malnutrition because the food is not evenly distributed. It’s a problem of economics and logistics, which those who are suffering have little or no control over.
not evenly distributed
as I said, “incapable of feeding themselves”. In other words, they better have something worthwhile to trade.
The problem is one of availability, not capability. As I said, the food exists in abundance, though not where it’s needed.
I don’t often give Ron a compliment but thanks for the article.
I won’t give Ron thanks because in something like 4 articles he’ll be back to explaining to us about how lab-grown meat can put N. American ranchers, obsessed with maintaining herds of megafauna, out of business so that we can return the land to its natural state of being roamed by large herds of megafauna.
As she makes plain, it’s tradeoffs all of the way down.
If the progressive mind does nothing else, it insists there are no trade-offs. Things are black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, there are no shades of gray. It makes choices so much simpler and easier that way. Should we aspire to kill all humans or only most of them? Obviously, if you spare any of them they will repopulate their numbers so we have to kill them all. Simple and easy solution.
Well we could start by killing off the progressives.
Looks like you and the climate warriors have something in common. You want to murder at least half of the people on the planet. Albeit for different reasons, but still.
Uh…half the population, or more, is “progressive”?
Cite? Coz I’m thinking the woke mind virus could be ended by the judicious brutal murder of less than 1%. Sadly, this would include the people who claim 90% of the world’s wealth, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
GG defines progressive as anyone who isn’t a Republican. So I’m sure he’d like to murder much more than half of the population.
“GG defines progressive as anyone who isn’t a Republican.”
Sarcasmic never tells lies to defame folks, just ask him.
“half the population, or more, is “progressive”?”
Sarcasmic lives in Maine, probably South Portland. It’s all he knows.
Sadly, this would include the people who claim 90% of the world’s wealth,
Sadly, this would include the people who claim 90% of the world’s leadership positions in Politics, Academia, and Justice.
Thanos is their role model. Likely because they don’t understand mathematics.
Live and let live has limits. Like not tolerating people who want to enslave us. Semi-enslavement is not a compromise.
“If the progressive mind does nothing else, it insists there are no trade-offs. ”
It’s conservatives who are generally thought to see things in black and white. Progressives opt for relativism, moral, cultural etc. Conservatives, depending on their standpoint, unequivocally support or oppose something like circumcision while progressives bend over backwards to take culture and tradition into account.
“Should we aspire to kill all humans or only most of them?”
None. The new ethics of environmentalism should hold all life sacred and worthy of preserving. The notion that we can kill our way to a more desirable ecology should be dismissed.
“It’s conservatives who are generally thought to see things in black and white. Progressives opt for relativism, moral, cultural etc. Conservatives, depending on their standpoint, unequivocally support or oppose something like circumcision while progressives bend over backwards to take culture and tradition into account.’
Unsupported assertions from lefty shits =/= argument or evidence.
Argument by assertion. Yep, that sounds progressive. To which I reply: Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Weren’t you arguing just a few comments above that citations are necessary before you will pay any attention?
“Weren’t you arguing just a few comments above that citations are necessary”
Maybe in some fancy pants academic forum, but here? Optional at best. If citations are necessary, look them up yourself.
Many years ago, trueman made a claim regarding WWII fighting in Ukraine; as is typical, it was some factoid out of “Parade magazine or some such, and asked for a cite.
Not trueman!
My first hint that stupidity was teamed with smug.
Does the “m” stand for “mis”? That would make him mistrueman.
Speaking of killing our way to a more desirable anything. Progressives killed millions in the 20th century. Was it a good tradeoff?
hold all life sacred and worthy of preserving.
Naw, we would be a lot better off identifying those who need to go, and acting on it dispassionately and quickly.
The progressive mind, based on child-mind thinking does not get trade-offs because it does not see connections. They indeed see things as right and wrong or good and bad but in complete isolation.
This also underlies progressive “economics” where concepts such as wages, prices, taxes, etc. are just political parameters that can be independently and arbitrarily set to fit social narratives.
Merry Christmas to all the commenters who are still here!
Except of course for all of you Reason staff sockpuppets. You know who you are!
Back at you!
https://www.yahoo.com/now/buses-texas-drop-off-migrants-165241405.html
WTH. I dare anyone here to defend dropping busloads of immigrants in the freezing cold.
“WTH. I dare anyone here to defend dropping busloads of immigrants in the freezing cold.”
Humanitarian goals?
Freezing cold is part and parcel with the USA in December. You know where it’s not freezing? Central America.
That doesn’t sound complicated at all. I mean, beyond the reach of most progtards, but that’s because they like to leave out huge chunks of most arguments.
What if they are given pizza and a blanket? You were fine with that.
Also do you realize the small towns seeing upwards of 1k migrants a day also don’t have shelter? Just say you don’t want them near you.
An example from El Paso.
https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/12/25/migrants-spend-frigid-christmas-morning-on-el-paso-streets/
“What if they are given pizza and a blanket?”
And a nice warm bus ride right out of the community. Mike’s really big hearted.
Whenever you say “You’re fine with” what follows is always a straw man. At least you’re consistent.
White Mike wasn’t just fine with it, he was actually boasting here that the good citizens of Martha’s Vineyard gave the illegals some pizza and a blanket before they sent them packing.
If you’re going to white knight for the original, maybe make sure that your not calling bullshit on something everyone here remembers.
Reminder. Sarc will lie in the same very same thread. It doesn’t matter Mike gas defended the pizza and blankets from MV a dozen times. To sarc it matters he thinks someone likes him, so he has to defend him.
You two make a cute couple.
Reminder. JesseAz is too stupid or dishonest to tell difference between someone saying something because they think it’s funny, and someone saying what they truly believe.
As a result he picks and chooses what he feels the person believes (usually an offhand comment or joke) and calls them a liar whenever they say something different.
As a result everything he asserts about anyone is untrue.
“Whenever you say “You’re fine with” what follows is always a straw man.”
Mike really was bragging up a few slices of pizza and a blanket per illegal, and yet you called it a strawman. Maybe explain how this was “an offhand comment or joke”.
Oh, and a merry Christmas to Jesse and a happy GFY to Sarc.
To be fair. He doesn’t know what a strawman actually is.
Let me guess, I don’t understand what gaslighting is either.
We do. You evidently don’t, from the myriad of posts where you’ve used it to mean people who were rude to you.
Then there’s the Canadian Cunt, the shittiest shitlord to shit up Shittown. Spends years looking for proof that I run socks. One day he shows me a link to a thread where muting ‘sarcasmic’ mutes other handles. He shouts “Gotcha!” So I ask if muting that ‘sarcasmic’ mutes me. It does not. So what does he do? Does he man-up and admit to being wrong? Does he man-up and apologize for spreading false information for years?
Haaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha! Mother’s Lament act like a man? Haaaa ha ha ha ha!
He has responded to you multiple times in regards to it. And here you lie about it again. Weren’t you claiming he was muted to avoid those posts?
Not just responses but all the links he demanded. So he got embarrassed, muted me so he didn’t have to see them, and then claimed they didn’t exist.
It’s like playing peekaboo with a baby. He thinks if he mutes me then my posts disappear for everyone else too.
The number of times he’s claimed I provided no links below a comment full of those links must be approaching a dozen. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Amazing.
Cite?
Is this how you hide behind retarded comments like above when your idiocy is pointed out to you with claims of sarcasm?
You know, i haven’t been responding to you because it is embarrassing how much you fail in comments.
But I have to ask, are you retarded with the memory of a goldfish? Mike has praised MVs handling of immigrants MV kept there for under 48 hours citing blankets and pizza. He has done this nearly a dozen times. You were on those threads. So are you intentionally lying about past comments as you always do? Or are you just fucking retarded? Or some combination of both I guess.
Also learn what a fucking strawman is dumbass.
As a more-or-less open borders advocate, I’ll take a stab at it.
I would say the default position is that immigrants should be treated like people. Ordinary people.
We let ordinary people buy bus tickets to cold places. We let ordinary people accept bus tickets bought by others on their behalf. Unless they are showing signs of mental illness, we generally don’t question why they want to go to a cold place. And at the destination, unsurprisingly, they are dropped off.
I’d even say that ordinary people have right to not be prevented from traveling from place to place inside the US.
You, apparently, do not believe that. You think that immigrants – even absolutely legal ones seeking asylum absolutely legally – should not have the rights that ordinary people take for granted.
I think you’re the one that needs to be defending your belief, which to me seems transparently racist. Either you want to restrict their travel because you hate them, or because you think they inherently lack the intelligence to enjoy the freedoms you do.
Well, it’s Christmas so we’ll leave open the possibility that you have some other reason. If you care to state it.
He don’t want no brown people in his neighborhood.
We (normal, non-sadistic people) do not buy tickets for or otherwise encourage people clad only in t-shirts to go a place where it is 15 degrees. Immigration status or policy doesn’t even enter into consideration in refraining from doing something heinous like that.
Yes Mike. Youre a benevolent authoritarian. Better to let them freeze in border towns.
It’s easy when you don’t consider immigrants to be human beings.
Read the article Mike linked, you fucking idiot. Cause Mike didn’t.
“Laborde, managing director of SAMU First Response, a relief agency working with the city of Washington (said)…
Local organizers had expected the buses to arrive Sunday but found out Saturday that the group would get to Washington early…
Laborde said employees had blankets ready for the people who arrived on Christmas Eve and moved them quickly onto waiting buses for a ride to an area church. A local restaurant chain donated dinner and breakfast.”
When did bacteria learn how to comment on the internet?
Only discusses topics, never people. How lonely was Christmas for you this year?
He’s only about ideas!
Who is doing that?
Illegal border crossers aren’t “immigrants”.
Always read White Mike links. He usually knows fuck all about the story other than what’s in his daily ActBlue talking-points.
“We (normal, non-sadistic people) do not buy tickets for or otherwise encourage people clad only in t-shirts to go a place where it is 15 degrees.”
As usual White Mike is regurgatating White House propaganda, but never ever accuse him of being a party shill, because he insists he totally isn’t and will act all offended.
From the fucking article.
“Local organizers had expected the buses to arrive Sunday but found out Saturday that the group would get to Washington early, Laborde said. The people on board included young children…
Laborde said employees had blankets ready for the people who arrived on Christmas Eve and moved them quickly onto waiting buses for a ride to an area church. A local restaurant chain donated dinner and breakfast.”
So the illegals were expected and an arrangements was in place to feed, cloth and house them. The bus just arrived 9 hours earlier than planned. A few people weren’t wearing jackets but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have them, just that they weren’t wearing one. They were immediately given blankets and quickly moved to buses to take them to where they’d be staying.
So everything Mike said was a lie. They weren’t dropped off in the cold and plans were in place to shelter and feed them.
Wonder where he picked up his narrative from?
“White House spokesperson Abdullah Hasan called the bus drop-offs a ‘cruel, dangerous, and shameful stunt.'”
Oh, there it is.
Sarc will ignore this post as it shows Mike’s dishonesty.
I agree: we should do the civilized thing and send them back to Mexico, with a permanent ban on ever reentering the US or obtaining any kind of visa.
You mean like in Texas?
“WTH. I dare anyone here to defend dropping busloads of immigrants in the freezing cold.”
Your punishment boner is sadly lacking!!!
Then after that, Trump will figure out a NEW way to score points with his base…
Anyone recall the Iran-Iraq wars of the 1980s? Lots of it was fought in low-laying salt-water marshes. Very tough terrain for Iraqi military vehicles… And it is expensive to bring in bunches of rocks or logs to raise up the mud to make roads. But there were BUTTLOADS of Iranian corpses just laying around for free! So the Iraqis just limed ’em up (for rot-proofing), and lined ‘em up and laid ‘em down to make roads! Lime ’em up, line ’em up, lay ’em down!
So we can soon expect Der TrumpfenFuhrer to steal a page from the Iran-Iraq war! The Mexicans won’t pay for His Walls?!? Make raids on Mexican peasant villages, round up conscript wall-building labor, and build the wall out of the limed-up corpses of illegal sub-humans!!! (Or at least the top-rim of the wall, for max psychological intimidation). For every American soldier killed in the effort, there will be reprisal shootings of 200 more illegal un-Americans!
Don’t say no one warned you of what is coming! Trump wants to “win” at any costs!
Iran-Iraq war…
For those who may not believe me…
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-08-14-wr-831-story.html
Documentary : Madness in the Marshes: Hussein’s Last War : The Iraqi leader’s tactics were surgically precise in the spring of 1984. Thousands of Iranian troops paid the ultimate price.
Bus them South to the empty halls of Mar a Lago.
The members have fled to avoid being caught on camera with the owner, and it’s a lot warmer than D.C.
You mean busing 50 homeless people living on the freezing streets of El Paso – where temps drop below freezing every night – and taking them to a sanctuary city where they will be fed and housed?
The tragedy is not moving these people to a better environment. The tragedy is that we’re not moving them to safety fast enough.
I see you intend to blame the immigrants for leaving a warm climate to come to a cold climate.
Good on you!
The myth of wild nature is that it is an untouched and unspoiled environment- a place where humanity is absent and nature is in an undisturbed state. This myth has been perpetuated through literature and film, which romanticize pristine landscapes and untouched wilderness. While these places do exist, they are becoming increasingly rare and, in many cases, inaccessible. Human activities such as pollution, deforestation, and habitat destruction have all had a profound impact on the natural environment. As a result, the idea of wild nature is more of a fantasy than a reality.
You mean Disney lied to me about talking fish and dancing bears and the nobility of lions?
Well, some lions.
STOP yer lion to me!!! Just STOP already!
You mean Disney lied to me about talking fish and dancing bears and the nobility of lions?
I understand you can now sue them for deception in their movie trailers.
Too much of environmental theory is based on the fallacy that there exist in the universe two great forces: nature and people; and that these forces are enemies of each other and nature is the good guy and people are the bad guy. Evolution tells us that all creatures are descended from a common ancestor, and all things come from the primordial ooze. That means humans are just as natural as are all other creatures and parts of nature: birds, reptiles, mammals, fish, insects, plants, etc. Everything we do is natural behavior, and everything we make is a natural object. Hoover Dam is no less natural than is a beaver dam. A city is just as natural as is an ant colony. While it is perfectly correct to refer to something that is created or built by humans as man-made, it is correct to describe anything man-made as unnatural. A successful environmental policy must accept the fact that people are part of nature, and when we alter the environment, even permanently, that alteration is itself a natural phenomenon.
“Hoover Dam is no less natural than is a beaver dam.”
Nobody is going to call the Hoover dam a natural phenomenon. It’s artificial, meaning man-made. Same with sputnik. It’s an artificial satellite while the moon is a natural one. Astroturf is artificial turf while grass is natural turf. There’s nothing fallacious about this, it’s just the way English works.
“that alteration is itself a natural phenomenon.”
That’s also tricky because while natural vs man made is one aspect of our concept of nature and the natural, another is the nature vs nurture divide. Is something inborn or does it have to be cultured into existence?
yeah I’m muting you. You don’t argue in good faith. Just tedious virtue signaling. Nowhere in your response do you actually speak to William’s point. Buh bye.
“Nowhere in your response do you actually speak to William’s point.”
Only a fool would take William’s point seriously. My guess is that he’s parroting something he heard from a talking head on TV. Come, Gaear Grimsrud, you can do better than this.
“Only a fool would take William’s point seriously. ”
Only a slimy pile of lefty shit would attempt to poison the well in this manner, slimy pile of lefty shit.
I’ve muted “mtrueman” as well. Bad faith is the least of his problems; his ignorance and inability to reason are far worse.
“Nobody is going to call the Hoover dam a natural phenomenon.” Nobody is going to call the Hoover dam a natural phenomenon. It’s artificial, meaning man-made.
Yes, you smug pile of shit; I’m calling Hoover Dam “natural”, unless you think mankind is somehow “un-natural”
—————————————–
“Nobody is going to call the Hoover dam a natural phenomenon. It’s artificial, meaning man-made.”
Assertions from lefty shit =/= argument or evidence.
1. Men are natural.
2. No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the ‘nature/nurture divide’ which is about a completely different thing.
“2. No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the ‘nature/nurture divide’ which is about a completely different thing.”
Same word, different meaning. Go figure.
Non-responsive comment from smug ignoramus.
Go figure.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
“Nobody is going to call the Hoover dam a natural phenomenon.”
Except for right-wing wrong-nuts!
It’s ass if, since “good” and “evil”, have NO precise definitions, we need to STRIKE those words from the English language!
“…A successful environmental policy must accept the fact that people are part of nature, and when we alter the environment, even permanently, that alteration is itself a natural phenomenon.”
Correct. Man is of nature; what man does is, by definition, natural.
Merry Christmas everyone! Oh, and…..
You know who else had ideas for creating a new paradise that somehow went south?
John Milton?
“You know who else had ideas for creating a new paradise that somehow went south?”
Most every person running for any public office ever?
Lee after Gettysburg?
God?
Viggo Mortensen in that über-depressing “Captain Fantastic” movie?
That movie should have been named “Hippies Smell.”
That would have been appropriate.
Spencer Tracy in It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World?
Walt Disney?
Could it be Satan?
Jim Jones?
Hitler.
Oh Good LORD!!! You know better than THAT!!!
Merry Christmas to all, except the socks and Buttplug, who is MIA for days and is hopefully rotting in a holding cell for his crimes against children.
Don’t forget to exclude the bots. Reason gets a lump of coal in their stocking if our ability to mute those work-from-home nouveau ruche HALs isn’t restored within the week!
I mute their asses. Those bots are the only things I mute here. I’m not interested in how they made $5,000 a week or about transsexuals from Paris. I’ll take a Sqrlsy rant first.
Thanx, InsaneTrollLogic!!!!
So then, it being Trumpsmas today, lemme tell you ALL about that them thar Bider-Grunch, who STOLE Trumpsmas!!! Do NOT be NAUGHTY, now!!!
The Bider-Grunch has stolen Trumpsmas!!! Get a grip, people, and focus on the BIGLY problems around here!!! Man the battle stations, full speed ahead, and DAMN the Lizard People AND their mind-controlled vote thieves!!!
How the Bider-Grunch Stole Trumpsmas
‘Twas the night before Trumpsmas,
And all through the lands,
Patriotic feelings were stirring our glands!
The voters ALL firmly fixed to vote RED!
Vote BLUE?!? They’d rather be dead!
Visions of Eternal Redness danced in their heads!
The Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpin-Father would soon be there!
All one-party Republican states would soon be square!
While every You Down in Youville Liked Trumpsmas a lot…
But the Bider-Grunch, who lived just north of Youville, Did NOT!
The Bider-Grunch hated Trumpsmas! The whole Trumpsmas season!
Now, please don’t ask why. No one quite knows the reason.
It could be his head wasn’t screwed on just right.
It could be, perhaps, that his shoes were too tight.
But I think that the most likely reason of all,
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.
Whatever the reason, His heart or his shoes,
He stood there on Trumpsmas Eve, hating the Yous,
Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grunchy frown,
At the warm lighted windows below in their town.
For he knew every You would vote Trump,
THIS, bigly, made the Grunch a real grump!.
“And they’re preparing ballots!” he snarled with a sneer,
“Tomorrow is Trumpsmas! It’s practically here!”
Then he growled, with his Grunch fingers nervously drumming,
“I MUST find some way to stop Trumpsmas from coming!”
For Tomorrow, he knew, all the You girls and boys,
Would wake bright and early. They’d rush for their toys!
And then! Oh, the noise! Oh, the Noise!
Noise! Noise! Noise!
That’s one thing he hated! The NOISE!
NOISE! NOISE! NOISE!
Then the Yous, young and old, would sit down to a feast.
And they’d feast! And they’d feast! And they’d FEAST!
FEAST! FEAST! FEAST!
They would feast on You-pudding, and rare You-roast beast.
Which was something the Bider-Grunch couldn’t stand in the least!
And THEN They’d do something He liked least of all!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Would stand close together, with Trumpsmas bells ringing.
They’d stand hand-in-hand. And the Yous would start singing!
They’d sing! And they’d sing! And they’d SING!
SING! SING! SING!
And the more the Grunch thought of this You TrumpsmasSing,
The more the Grunch thought, “I must stop this whole thing!”
“Why, for four years I’ve put up with it now!”
“I MUST stop this Trumpsmas from coming! But HOW?”
Then he got an idea! An awful idea!
THE GRUNCH GOT A WONDERFUL, AWFUL IDEA!
“I know just what to do!” The Bider-Grunch laughed in his throat.
And he made a quick MAGA hat and a coat.
And he chuckled, and clucked, “What a great Grunchy trick!”
“With this coat and this hat, I look just like Saint Prick!”
“All I need is a Proud Boy…” The Bider-Grunch looked around.
But, since Proud Boys are scarce, there was none to be found.
Did that stop the old Grunch? No! The Grunch simply said,
“If I can’t find a Proud Boy, I’ll make one instead!”
So he called his cat, Chairman Meow. Then he took some red thread,
And he tied a big MAGA hat on the top of his head.
Then he loaded many bags and sacks, made ‘em all fit somehow,
On a ramshackle sleigh, and he hitched up Chairman Meow..
Then the Grunch said, “Giddap!” And the sleigh started down,
Toward the homes where the Whos Lay asnooze in their town.
All their windows were dark. Quiet snow filled the air.
All the Whos were all dreaming sweet dreams without care.
When he came to the first little house on the square.
“This is stop number one,” the Grunchy fake-Trump hissed,
And he climbed to the roof, empty bags in his fist.
Then he slid down the chimney. To his fat gut, a punch.
But, if Trump could do it, then so could the Grunch.
He got stuck only once, for a moment or two.
Then he stuck his head out of the fireplace flue.
Where the little You ballots all hung in a row.
“These ballots,” he grinned, “are the first things to go!”
Then he slithered and slunk, with a smile most unpleasant,
Around the whole room, and he took every vote!
This, surely, would get the You’s goat!
And he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grunch, very nimbly,
Stuffed all the bags, one by one, up the chimney!
Then he slunk to the icebox. He took the Yous’ feast!
He took the You-pudding! He took the roast beast!
He cleaned out that icebox as quick as a flash.
Why, that Grunch even took their last can of You-hash!
Then he stuffed all the food up the chimney with glee.
“And NOW!” grinned the Bider-Grunch, “I will stuff up the tree!”
And the Bider-Grunch grabbed the tree, and he started to shove,
When he heard a small sound like the coo of a dove.
He turned around fast, and he saw a small You!
Little Cindy-Lou You, who was not more than two.
The Grunch had been caught by this tiny You daughter,
Who’d got out of bed for a cup of cold water.
She stared at the Grunch and said, “Lord Trump, why,”
“Why are you taking our Trumpsmas tree? WHY?”
But, you know, that old Grunch was so smart and so slick,
He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick!
“Why, my sweet little tot,” the fake Lord Trump lied,
“There’s a light on this tree that won’t light on one side.”
“So I’m taking it home to my workshop, my dear.”
“I’ll fix it up there. Then I’ll bring it back here.”
And his fib fooled the child. Then he patted her head,
And he got her a drink and he sent her to bed.
And when CindyLou You went to bed with her cup,
He went to the chimney and stuffed the tree up!
Then the last thing he took Was the log for their fire!
Then he went up the chimney, himself, the old liar.
On their walls he left nothing but hooks and some wire.
And the one speck of food That he left in the house,
Was a crumb that was even too small for a mouse.
Then He did the same thing To the other Yous’ houses
Leaving crumbs much too small For the other Yous’ mouses!
It was quarter past dawn… All the Yous, still a-bed,
All the Yous, still asnooze When he packed up his sled,
Packed it up with all of their ballots… ALL of their votes!
THIS, the fake Lord Trump grumped, will get ALL of their goats!
Three thousand feet up! Up the side of Mt. Crumpit,
He rode with his load to the tiptop to dump it!
“Pooh-Pooh to the Yous!” he was Grunchishly humming.
“They’re finding out now that no Trumpsmas is coming!”
“They’re just waking up! I know just what they’ll do!”
“Their mouths will hang open a minute or two,
Then the Yous down in Youville will all cry Boo-Hoo!”
“That’s a noise,” grinned the Bider-Grunch, “That I simply MUST hear!”
So he paused. And the Bider-Grunch put his hand to his ear.
And he did hear a sound rising over the snow.
It started in low. Then it started to grow.
But the sound wasn’t sad! Why, this sound sounded merry!
It couldn’t be so! But it WAS merry! VERY!
He stared down at Youville! The Grunch popped his eyes!
Then he shook! What he saw was a shocking surprise!
Every You down in Youville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any Trump-votes at all!
He HADN’T stopped Trumpsmas from coming! IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!
And the Grunch, with his Grunch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: “How could it be so?”
The Grunch-light came on! “Yes! Now I know!
The Yous down in Youville, they’re really quite slow!
Their election’s been stolen, but the whole Trumpsmas glow,
Overwhelms EVERYTHING, even democracy!
They’ll lie bigly, and impose mobocracy!”
So the Bider-Grunch whipped out his cell phone,
Called the Lizard People, who send out a drone,
Mind-controlled them ALL, as is Lizard habit,
Now NO ONE could save them, not even Saint Babbitt!
So THAT’s the Sad Story of the bad Bider-Grunch,
Who stole Trumpsmas, the elections, AND your lunch!
Ok, I kind of invited that, even if I didn’t quite expect it. My bad.
The spamflag cleans out Sqrlsy’s copypasta shitposts quite handily.
I think he posted damn near all he’s got in that one.
The “mute”, “refresh” seems to do fine.
If the spastic asshole ever posted anything worth reading, it was buried in his spastic word salads; not worth finding.
Spastic asshole? Make the world a better place; fuck off and die.
BTW, what is amazing (?) about the spastic asshole is his/her narcissistic presumption that anyone other than his/her mother would waste time sorting through the spastic asshole’s bullshit to find anything of value.
What in the world would suggest to the spastic asshole that someone would?
Abysmal stupidly rates high, terminal narcissism comes close. A combination of the two covers all the bases.
It’s still not working for me (and a week ago it was working fine). Maybe it’s to do with being on my iPhone?
Is that a sentence?
If you “mute” and then “refresh”, they’re gone.
I’ve been both flagging and muting them, but since Thursday I haven’t been able to—and there’s a whole new obnoxious crop of them!
The above is currently working for me.
Nature literally means birth in Latin. It’s kinda asinine to say that anything we do is unnatural. Perhaps the vernacular meaning has slowly warped to become a poor fit for the idea of the universe.
So you’re saying our definition of ‘natural’ is *puts on sunglasses* unnatural?
Naturally!
How would you translate the title of De Rerum Naturae into English if you could read Latin?
Or into Latinx for that matter?
George Carlin said maybe the Earth made humans so we could cover it in a layer of plastic. Why not? Plastic is made from earthly materials. Maybe Nature couldn’t do it by itself so it made us. Then one we cover the planet in plastic it kills us all off.
Sort of like what happened at the Great Oxidation Event two and a half billion years ago.
Early cyanobacteria overproduced toxic (to them) oxygen and killed off huge swaths of themselves. But this lead to the evolution of oxygen metabolizing Eukaryotes and the development of multicellular life-forms.
Oh, you’re going to address the slimy pile of lefty shit with facts? Just wait; the asshole will instantly turn into a VICTIM!
Sarc? Fuck off and die, even if that means a loss in my Brown Forman holdings. Just fuck off and die.
Earthly Life made humans so that it would have a chance to establish itself on other worlds before Earth inevitably becomes uninhabitable.
Or Reason comments become unfathomable?
Or “Bridge of Ashes” by Zelazny.
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All those in favor of oxidizing squirrels raise your torches.
But remember- thanks to the omnibus appropriations bill, you’ll soon be on candid camera on the J. Edgar Hoover Space Telescope
Nesbit concludes, “Now that we have shaken off the idea of an unobtainable ‘pure’ nature, we can embrace the possibilities that come from celebrating nature in its many forms. We’re not doomed to simply mourn a paradise lost, we’re free to create a new form of paradise.” Let’s get at it.
The Conservation Commission in our town evidently did not get this memo, nor did just about any other feel-good lefty group.
I’ve been arguing these points for several years now, so I’m glad to see some one pick up the ball more formally.
99% of all species died out.. The earth has changed in many different ways. There is no such thing as “natural” in this context, only change and evolution. The first mistake, the original sin of ecoism, green and environmentalism is the idea that there was, is or ever will be a steady, balanced natural/”normal” state to be disrupted in the first place. Animals either adapt and evolve using the traits given them or die out. Human science and technology is no different. It’s our natural gift… I mean unless the god hating, nature/evolution worshiping ecoists now believe some outside force created or altered humanity?
Nature will have to adapt, on its own or by our hands, there is no going back and nothing (a norm) to go back to!
Personally, if it comes down to it… human advancement and a ‘coruscant’ future, or living in moss and mud huts again…. Bring on coruscant!
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