What Does the Respect for Marriage Act Actually Say?
This isn't something radical. It basically just affirms a status quo supported by the polls.

The Respect for Marriage Act passed the Senate Tuesday night by a vote of 61–36. Twelve Republican lawmakers crossed the aisle and voted with all the Democrats for the bill, which will enshrine federal recognition for same-sex and interracial marriages in states that have legalized it.
The Respect for Marriage Act is intended as a backstop should the Supreme Court ever decide to reconsider and overturn U.S. v. Windsor, which ruled that the federal government must recognize state-approved, same-sex marriages, and Obergefell v. Hodges, which ruled that all states and the federal government must legally recognize same-sex marriage. The Respect for Marriage Act repeals and replaces the Defense of Marriage Act, passed in 1996, which prevented the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriage.
There has been quite a bit of exaggeration about what the bill actually does in the run-up to Tuesday's vote, particularly by social conservatives who have a very long history of opposing same-sex marriage. The Heritage Foundation describes the bill as "radical" and, uh, tweeted out a frowny-face emoji in response to the vote. A reminder here that a majority of Americans, including Republicans, support legal recognition of gay marriage.
In a post at The Daily Signal, Roger Severino, Heritage Foundation's vice president of domestic policy, opined, "No American who believes in marriage as the union of one man and one woman should be persecuted by the state or radical activists for their sincerely held convictions."
The bill doesn't actually authorize any of that, but the Foundation is highlighting concerns that down the line, the IRS or federal government will use religious opposition to same-sex marriage to attack the tax-exempt status of religious organizations. Sen. Mike Lee (R–Utah) attempted to introduce an amendment that would strengthen religious freedom protections in the bill but was rejected.
Conservatives aren't the only ones whose representations of the Respect for Marriage Act aren't quite getting the big picture. Coverage of the Respect for Marriage Act in The New York Times, for example, downplays the respect for state powers in the bill—it does not require states to legalize gay marriage recognition. To be fair, here, conservatives like Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.) also seem to think that the bill is forcing same-sex marriage on states.
So a quick refresher on what the bill actually does and does not do:
The Respect for Marriage Act requires the federal government to recognize same-sex marriages performed in states where it is legal. This is obviously very important in terms of taxes and federal benefits that are tied to marriage. This is not an expansion of the federal government so much as widening the group of people who have access to existing privileges, rights, and benefits. If senators like Cotton think the federal government is too involved with a state issue, they can certainly attempt to start rolling back the many, many, many federal regulations and policies that are connected to marital status. But I won't be holding my breath.
The Respect for Marriage Act does not require any state to legalize same-sex marriages. Many states still have bans on recognition on the books. If the Supreme Court ever decides to overturn Obergefell, those bans will likely become active again. The Times coverage somewhat downplays this, and some gay couples might end up being surprised at what happens if Obergefell ever goes away.
The Respect for Marriage Act does require states to recognize same-sex marriages performed legally in other states. While this feels awkward and intrusive from a federalism standpoint, do try to imagine what would happen if this were not the case. More specifically, try to imagine if this were not the case with heterosexual couples. Each state sets its own marriage rules, but each state historically recognizes legal marriage licenses from other states for heterosexual couples. Gay couples shouldn't be any different.
The Respect for Marriage Act lets religious organizations decline to participate in gay weddings. The bill specifically provides that churches and other houses of worship, religious groups, faith-based social agencies, etc. "shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage. Any refusal under this subsection to provide such services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges shall not create any civil claim or cause of action."
The Respect for Marriage Act does not resolve conflict over whether religious organizations may be required under the law to recognize same-sex marriages in certain circumstances. This is what Lee is attempting to address with his failed amendment. Can a church-connected foster agency refuse to place children with same-sex couples? Does a religious school with a position against same-sex marriage have to employ teachers in these marriages? The bill is silent on this conflict entirely. But that's also the current status quo, where the matter is somewhat unsettled. A recent Supreme Court decision in favor of a Catholic foster program failed to address the underlying question. The reason this is not addressed by the bill is because Republicans and Democrats are on opposite sides here and the amendment would certainly stop its passage. (A cynic might wonder if this is the intent in trying to push it into the bill.)
The Respect for Marriage Act does not resolve conflict over whether private businesses can be forced by law to provide goods and services for gay weddings. The bill is completely silent over state-level public accommodation laws and wedding services like wedding cakes, invitations, floral arrangements, and the like. The reason the bill is silent here is most certainly the same as above—taking a stand in either direction would kill the bill due to currently irreconcilable political differences. On Monday, the Supreme Court will be hearing arguments in 303 Creative v. Elenis, a case about whether a web designer and host can be forced to provide her services to create gay wedding pages despite her religious opposition to recognition.
And to be clear here, the Respect of Marriage Act is how same-sex marriage should be legalized, rather than just leaving it to the Supreme Court to make the decision. We should look askance at lawmakers like Lee who argue that Congress doesn't need to act here simply because there's no current case being pushed before the Supreme Court to undermine same-sex marriage. This is Congress' job: Having laws that specify the boundaries of federal marriage recognition is something we should expect lawmakers, not judges, to determine.
Now that the bill has passed the Senate, it will have to go back to the House for another vote, as part of the compromise with Senate Republicans which involved adding a section specifying that the Respect for Marriage Act doesn't allow for recognition of polygamous marriage. It's expected to sail back through the House and get President Joe Biden's signature before the lame-duck session ends.
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The Respect For Marriage Act sounds well and good, but we all know the intent of the law doesn't have shit to do with how it's interpreted and enforced and expanded. Mark my words. someday it will be used as justification for enforcing gay marriage. And enforced eating of bugs. (Probably.)
i am interested how EXACTLY you think they plan to "enforce" gay marriage? when the whole point is to remove a restriction on who you can chose to marry, what exactly do you think they are going to force on you?
what exactly do you think they are going to force on you?
Even the article was pretty clear about that. Religious institutions being required to perform same sex marriages or businesses being required to provide support services for same sex weddings.
um... yeah, it was pretty clear..... that what you just described is PREVENTED in the bill...... (there is still the gray area for private businesses owned by idiot bigots, but religious institutions are explicitly protected.)
From the article:
This is what Lee is attempting to address with his failed amendment. Can a church-connected foster agency refuse to place children with same-sex couples? Does a religious school with a position against same-sex marriage have to employ teachers in these marriages? The bill is silent on this conflict entirely.
No, it isn't prevented, as this makes utterly clear. It would have, if Lee's amendment had been included. But, it wasn't.
And someone being an "idiot bigot" doesn't negate the fact that violating their rights is wrong.
Then go organize a credible and serious effort to repeal all non-discrimination laws.
But so long as you don't do that, and only get loud when it comes to non-discrimination laws for gay people, it's obvious you don't care about rights, you just hate gay people. And that's not a legitimate government purpose.
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Libertarians have been opposed to protected class laws since Goldwater's famous speech in opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 you historically illiterate faggot. Go peddle your victimization to a little boy you want to fuck who might be as stupid as you are and actually buy it.
that... is not what you said. what you said was " Religious institutions being required to perform same sex marriages or businesses being required to provide support services for same sex weddings."
this is also from the article:
" The bill specifically provides that churches and other houses of worship, religious groups, faith-based social agencies, etc. "shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges for the solemnization or celebration of a marriage."
adoption, employment, public accommodation law..... none of that compels anyone to actually take part in the wedding, which was your original claim. all of that only even comes up when a giant douche bag tries to claim "religious objections" to do something they are too stupid to know their bible actually tells them not to do. there is some room for discussion of that aspect, but it is not even close to what you claimed in the beginning, and it is completely unchanged by this bill in any way.
So a Christian baker can say he doesn't make cakes for gay weddings and this law will protect him from state agencies who try to enforce their gay special rights laws, right shreek? Goddamn you're a fucking moron. It's not wonder you like to fuck 8 year old little boys, that's about where your intellectual development plateaued.
"So a Christian baker can say he doesn’t make cakes for gay weddings and this law will protect him from state agencies who try to enforce their gay special rights laws, right shreek?"
completely irrelevant to the conversation. (also, thanks for exposing yourself as a complete fucking moron for falling back on the lazy as fuck "shreek" BS..... and you are even dumber because i think you got the name wrong.)
the new law changes absolutely nothing about anything you have chosen to complain about in our post. nothing you said has anything to do with this new law or anything i have said anywhere. make a relevant argument or GFY.
And will be sued if they don't. Like the baker that didn't want to make a gay cake. This is about force, not about equality.
so nobody angry about this bill has any idea at all what is in it....... that seems to be the big takeaway.
If by "nobody" you mean just you and the retarded faggot crybaby, then sure.
You do know that when Phillips refused service to a gay couple for being gay, that same-sex marriage wasn't actually legal in Colorado, right?
Just like how when Elane Photography refused service to a lesbian couple for being lesbian, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in New Mexico.
It's almost like marriage is a red herring when it comes to non-discrimination lawsuits.
It’s almost like marriage is a red herring when it comes to non-discrimination lawsuits.
Again, this statement applies both ways, otherwise, celebratory parallax. If gay marriage in CO was nothing more legally notable than a 1 yr. old's birthday party, then Phillips refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding was no more legally actionable than him refusing to bake a smash cake for a 1-yr.-old and the CCRC was egregiously overstepping any/all legal bounds in fining him.
Further, the unique, contemporary, and selective interpretation of 'full faith and credit' means that bakers in the other 50 states would be required to abide CO's legislative decisions about gay marriage that have since been codified into law.
You do know that after the passage of this law the legal remedy available to Mr. Phillips, who by the way is fighting another multimillion dollar court case filed by a tranny the day after you faggot pieces of totalitarian shit got your last witch hunt shoved up your gaping assholes by the supreme court, will be gone and he would have no legal recourse, right? It's almost like having the federal government arrogate the utterly constitutional power to set state marriage policy actually has a lot to do with non-discrimination lawsuits, and that's the entire point of this law, faggot.
good
Fucking senator tries a hate hoax:
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1598168780458590209?t=U57rNuL3HvLt4moV136ixw&s=19
You didn't even print it out. You just wrote it in notes and screenshotted it with the cursor showing. Holy shlit dude
[Link]
BAKE THE CAKE!
Exactly! The same way Roe becane the law of the land! It sets a precedent! We will be bludgeoned with the law! It will be considered settled law and we will be forced to accept what we find offensive!
" Roger Severino, Heritage Foundation's vice president of domestic policy, opined, "No American who believes in marriage as the union of one man and one woman should be persecuted by the state or radical activists for their sincerely held convictions." "
Gullible right-wing bigots have rights, too.
Including the right to continue to get their superstitious, half-educated asses stomped by their betters in the American culture war.
But not the right to protection from being called low-grade, obsolete bigots.
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Hey Artie, remember how your buddy the pedophile got smoked by a 17 year old little boy? How's that winning taste, faggot?
The Respect for Marriage Act does not resolve conflict over whether private businesses can be forced by law to provide goods and services for gay weddings.
Useless, as expected.
Look, as libertarians I assume we all agree that a marriage is not valid unless you acquire that contract between the couple(!) and the state known as a license, that compact that guarantees exclusive goodies that (as implied by the word "exclusive") are denied to those not so inclined to be socially engineered by said state. So, in conclusion, mazel tov.
“The reason this is not addressed by the bill is because Republicans and Democrats are on opposite sides here and the amendment would certainly stop its [the bill’s] passage. (A cynic might wonder if this is the intent in trying to push it into the bill.)”
So if the bill protected religious freedom more fully, it would fail because Democrats would oppose it?
And that’s a reason to *support* the bill?
always let perfect be the enemy of good, amiright?
What's "perfect" in this situation, and what's "good"?
We're talking about Congress passing laws. The 'perfect as enemy of the good' conjecture is indistinguishable from advocating 'bad law is better than no law'.
It's textbook celebration parallax: DOMA, passed with bipartisan support, was wrong and discriminatory, should've been struck down, and the people that supported it should've been run out of town on rails, but *our* federal marriage act is good and should be celebrated.
No, a good 'respect for marriage act' would be one sentence, around 9 words long and be written to the effect of, "The 1996 Defense of Marriage Act is hereby repealed." Then, there wouldn't need to be endless paragraphs obfuscating what the "actual" meaning of the "actual" text of the "actual" bill "actually" says. If it takes Scott Shackford 6+ paragraphs and that many "actually"s to interpret what the bill does, it's shit.
Absent both DOMA and Obergefel, there are a number of states which would not grant or recognize same-sex marriages.
So no, repealing DOMA is not sufficient. Necessary, yes, but not sufficient
So no, repealing DOMA is not sufficient.
Right, celebration parallax: Congress was wrong to force DOMA on people who didn't want it and your need for Congress to force RFMA on people who don't want it (either) should be celebrated.
Yeah, I ignored that part because it's stupid.
DOMA is bad not because it's an exercise in government power, but because it curtails liberty.
RFMA is good not because it's an exercise in government power, but because it protects liberty.
It only appears to be a parallax because you're focusing on the first part, not the second.
Yeah, I ignored that part because it’s stupid.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what parallax means. See, if you disalign yourself from federalism when it obstructs your preferred view and then realign to it when obstructs a disfavored view, that's parallax, whether you focus on Federalism, the view, or both.
Moving your frame of reference, physical, moral, or other, so that your preferred view eclipses federalism and, further, federalism eclipses your disfavored few isn't a pro-moral or pro-liberty stance, it's a blatantly self-serving one. And in the selective exercise of Federal authority, a plain attempt to obfuscate the reach for power.
By your own assertions, you need the RFMA to eclipse States' Rights/Federalism and equal protection the way DOMA did.
The problem you're running into is that EscherEnigma is an incredibly stupid faggot with no idea what he's talking about, and has been for ~10 years since he first appeared on the site. Discussing parallax with someone who thinks codifying a "right" to ask the government for permission to get special benefits is about as productive as explaining Newtonian vs quantum dynamics to your pet goldfish.
DOMA did not "curtail liberty", it denied a false equity.
you kind of implied that you don't want to support the law because it did not include that one provision.
i see down thread that you recognize that repealing DOMA was something that needed to be done. not supporting this law because it lacks a single provision is basically saying you are OK with that necessary thing not happening because the bill to do so does not include every single thing you want in it. it is not passing a good bill because it is not perfect in your eyes.
if that is not what you were saying, then i have no idea what your point was at all.
I was interested in the apparent suggestion that the Dems would kill the bill if it had too much religious freedom in it. Even if the bill provided for govt-recognized gay marriage.
DOMA was struck down 9 years ago, shreek, you retarded fucking pedophile.
I've got a proposal for you. I'm willing to write you a check for $50 provided that agree to sign an agreement. Now, I'm not going to show you what's in that agreement. It might very well be an agreement to turn all of your worldly possessions over to me and a lien on half your future earnings. But, hey, $50 is $50, and you wouldn't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, amiright?
The RFMA is four pages double-spaced with huge margins. It is literally shorter then this article talking about it.
If you can't be arsed to look it up and read it, that's on you, not anyone else.
The RFMA is four pages double-spaced with huge margins. It is literally shorter then this article talking about it.
Meaning the article, absent any quotes, is purely Scott's bullshit, one-sided fabrication.
And, even at four pages, it contains plenty of objectionable stupidity that shouldn't be in the law and isn't needed if the goal is simply to repeal DOMA and some of which is a rather blatant power-grab that reinforces future stupidity like (this and) DOMA.
Why would you think that was the goal? The goal, from the outset, was to protect same-sex marriage in the event that Clarence Thomas makes good on his threat and overturns Obergefel v. Hodges (2015).
Imagine being smooth brained enough to accuse Thomas of being an activist (or having enough influence to do so).
Why would you think that was the goal?
I don't. The statement "If your goal is to fill a 10 lb. bag with shit, using 20 lbs. will just make a mess." does not imply that you don't want to fill a bag *and* cover yourself in shit and actually kinda suggests the opposite.
You know what?
You’re right. You’re covered in shit, and I don’t know why I’m talking to you, but it won't happen again.
You’re covered in shit
You wouldn't know if I was covered in shit or not and, even if I am, it doesn't refute your desire to fill a desire to fill a 10 lb. bag with 20 lbs. of shit.
Four pages double-spaced with huge margins leaves a lot of unspecified area for future courts to interpret.
It's retardation celebration parallax all the way down. The final draft of DOMA is something like two pages, double-spaced, with huge margins.
Just like Scott cramming six paragraphs of shit into a three paragraph bill, the RFMA uses four pages of shit to fix two pages of hole generated by the overruling of DOMA.
there is a slight difference between open ended agreement to terms that are completely unknown, and pretending an abysmal law should not be repealed just because they did not add one specific provision that never existed before and could still be introduced as separate legislation.
2nd reminder that DOMA has been repealed for 9 years, shreek. That's a full year more than the typical age of the little boys you like to fuck. Take the L, move on, come back tomorrow with your other 8 socks and pull the same shit again.
So ...more laws with no actual teeth ? Isn't that just virtue signalling ?
no, it is doing their job for a change. letting the courts create law and never taking the time to codify that is just lazy and dumb and opens us up to uncertainty like what happened with roe.
courts create law
Of all the times the court actually creates a law, you choose the one time when you *think* the court might take and action based on the court's previous action of, not striking down a law, but reversing a previous decision to describe it as "courts create law".
"SCOTUS reversing Dobbs is courts creating law" is the premise by which you generate and demonstrate your own stupidity.
this is so stupid, i can't even tell what false claim you are trying to make about what i said. i can tell you are trying to say i am saying something other than what i said, but that is about it.
i can’t even tell what false claim you are trying to make about what i said.
So, despite the assumption of my dishonesty, you fact checked the statements and found them to be accurate.
It's nice of you to admit that you pay so little attention to the bullshit talking points you copy and paste that you can't even comprehend when they've been shoved up your gaping pedophile asshole, shreek.
If the judiciary wasn't a hack they'd rule the federal government has no granted authority to define relationships. Erase the religious "marriage" symbol from all federal law.
Yet somehow you think it's their job to define everyone's relationship.
or maybe idiots like you could just come to terms with the fact that there is nothing "religious" about the law....
And there's the problem. It's an initiative to CANCEL people's religion by stealing their terminology. Do tell; if it's not a religious matter then why can't they settle for 'civil union'???? What's so important about the "marriage" symbol?
or subservience to the state? hold hands with whomever you please.
you really are slow on the uptake. marriage is not religious. the word is not religious. there are religious OPINIONS about the word, but the word is not religious. the definition of marriage is "the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship."
this is the problem with modern day bigots.... they think they can throw the word "religious" in front of something and pretend it is something other than what it is.
also, a point you have ignored a few times now..... there are religions other than yours.... and some of those religions will marry gay couples. so even if you really really want to dig in on the "religious" argument, you have to actively violate other people's religious freedom to get your way.
they think they can throw the word “woke” in front of something and pretend it is something other than what it is.
So which OPINION is more true?
Marriage has religious standing or it's entirely non-religious? YOU LOSE.
Marriage with zero religious standing was about butt-poking? YOU LOSE.
Truth. Just because you say your an elephant doesn't mean you are by any established definition. But that's okay; [WE] sodomy GANG RULES and we'll make sure we're all elephants in the eyes of the law.
"Marriage has religious standing or it’s entirely non-religious? YOU LOSE."
WRONG!!! religion didn't even try to butt into marriage until the council of Trent in 1563. people got married without any priest or even witnesses before that. marriage has been a purely legal arrangement for most of human history.
"Marriage with zero religious standing was about butt-poking? YOU LOSE."
it does help that everyone can see you are an openly gay hating bigot who will use every excuse you can to say things like "butt poking." it really helps make sure that you are not actually fooling anyone with your BS "religious" smoke screen.
"Just because you say your an elephant doesn’t mean you are by any established definition."
funny part is that you are the one trying to define something as something it is not. you want to pretend marriage is a purely religious thing, and that has never ever been true.
but you do want to force your ignorant opinion on everyone else and violate their religious freedoms. AGAIN, you ignored the point that there are churches that will marry gay couples. even under your "its totally religious" BS, gays can still get married. the only one trying to infringe on anyone's freedom of religion is you. do you really not get that? do you really not understand that banning gay marriage, even if just fixating on the word, is using the jack boots of the state to stomp on the religious views of others? gays are not stomping on your rights because they want to use the word "marriage," you are stomping on theirs because you want to FORCE them not to.
Can you say ‘double speak’?
“religion didn’t even try to butt into marriage”
“violate their religious freedoms”
Way to dodge that — butt-poking? YOU LOSE. point.
UR whole point is full of double speak.
It’s not religion, but it is religious freedom, it’s not religion, but it is religious freedom…… etc, etc, etc, etc……..
Humorously; No matter which way you decide upon (if you ever do). You’re only ?reasoning? is that I’m “gay hating bigot” that should just allow the feds to define relationships.
The Respect the Woke-Religion Act.
"Way to dodge that — butt-poking? YOU LOSE. point."
obsessed with butt poking.... you lose....
"UR whole point is full of double speak.
It’s not religion, but it is religious freedom, it’s not religion, but it is religious freedom…… etc, etc, etc, etc…….."
you might want to avoid saying your augment was not religious other places before saying something this stupid.
It’s double speak 100% — This is exactly what you are arguing….. YOUR “marriage” rules are religious oppression. MY “marriage” rules aren’t
Yet somehow BOTH want to define the same exact subject. Nice retarded mind-game trick.
How about MY “marriage” rules of heterosexual marriage aren’t religious and YOUR “marriage” rules are Woke-Religious oppression. (Which actually speaks a higher truth; because sodomy doesn’t create family).
Fact... UR arguing that any "marriage" rules EXCEPT YOURS are religious oppression.
We'll just ignore 5,000 years of Judaism since we're all friends here. It's funny when you get histrionic and break character with proper capitalization though.
I guess we can add historically illiteracy to shreek's many other illiteracies.
Oh and uh, shreeky baby? Different religions.... having the.... freedom to perform or not perform marriages of any arrangement they like..... RANDOM CAPITALIZED WORD TO EMPHASIZE MY IRONIC 4CHAN all lowercase.... is called..... ............ religious liberty. It's what this bill specifically prohibits by codifying one definition of marriage to apply to everyone. Also, the bill specifically limits marriage to two people. I guess it's OK to stomp on the religious rights of polygamist Mormons though.... ......
My problem is that those "laws with no teeth" are the ones that fly under the radar. And the fact that Lee's amendment was rejected leaves me skeptical that this is only codifying the status quo.
They are coming for that cake guy. The left fucking hates his guts, they won't be content until his business is ruined and he's in chains.
Looks like they're going to get their way. He'll probably close up shop before baking the fag cake. And he'd be 100% right to do so, though it won't help him any. Someone should get the Kickstarter rolling now.
He'll have to use GiveSendGo, at least until their payment processor shuts them down.
much easier to skip the whole marriage thing. mho.
The bill is completely silent over state-level public accommodation laws and wedding services like wedding cakes, invitations, floral arrangements, and the like.
No gay wedding pizza? You homophobic, fascist, Nazi, racist, Christian Nationalist!
That quote is Scott gaslighting for the activists. He knows it will be read on against the states and every business will be held to this and that is the point of this lie.
A cynic might also say that the reason Democrats opposed an amendment to protect the tax-exempt status of religious organizations is because they expect, in future, that the IRS will revoke that status because of an organization's view of marriage. (Beto O'Rourke said as much in 2019, as I recall.) If they don't want that to happen, why wouldn't they agree to such an amendment?
Yeah, this is my concern here, as well. If codifying the status quo was the goal here, what was the problem with Lee's amendment?
To be frank, if a Democrat-run IRS were to revoke tax-exempt status for religious organisations, that would be a good thing not a bad thing.
It would allow the GOP then to go the whole hog and revoke all tax-exempt status for everybody, thereby eliminating privileges and subsidies for the politically favored, widening the tax base and so allowing taxes on productive endeavor to be reduced.
If Lee's amendment would scuttle the bill, it tells me that the bill as written has no business becoming law.
Most libertarians not named Reason do not believe the government has any business in marriage. Marriage is a religious institution the state should have stayed out of from the beginning. If it is about partner's rights, the law can be made to reflect the those rights. Don't confuse marriage with divorce. Divorce is a legal division of co-owned property. State laws vary on community property.
I would agree it would be best for the government not to be involved in marriage, the fact is there is a whole lot of privileges that a marriage license gives a couple. A spouse can visit a hospital patient, that is not guaranteed for the non-married. As you noted community property, when my wife and I married our assets became joint assets. Now many of the privileges granted by marriage could be obtained with a lawyer help, but who would want to take on all the work.
There are many is society that see marital property rights as a travesty. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
A simple Will can solve most of those problems.
We tried, and were rebuffed. Conservatives made it an all-or-nothing fight, and Libertarians are mad we didn't choose "nothing".
Conservatives made it an all-or-nothing fight
Yeah, everybody was just quietly enjoying their gay wedding pizzas and grade-school drag queen story hours until the Evul Kahnservuhtives decided to evict homosexuality from all corners:
It was an all or nothing fight from the beginning on the LGBT side. They wanted the word "marriage" and the inherent air of moral approval the word connotates, which is why any compromise, such as civil unions was rejected.,
You mean like when you got civil unions and histrionically screeched "SEPARATE BUT EQUAL" like the whiny little faggot bitches you are until Anthony Kennedy the kiddie fucker came to your rescue? Like that, you poor persecuted little AIDS-riddled faggot?
I disagree with you. If you fail, try again. Roe vs Wade took decades to reach the right decision. Also civil unions were passed. This is about force, to force religious people to accept what they do not believe. Just like the cake maker. There were other bakers that would love your business, but the point was a lawsuit to force him. And why would you want someone that disagrees to make a cake for you? Obviously it will not be their best effort
I am not anti-gay. I had a beloved Uncle now passed away that was gay. I have had gay and lesbian friends that I worked with and invited to my house.
Yet I see a distinction as a Christian. Marriage is a religious sacrament, and between a man and a woman. I will not be forced to change my belief. I welcome all to church, just as Christ did, but I believe you have to believe in what the Bible says to be a leader in the Church. You cannot pick and chose.
More evidence that Reason writers aren’t libertarians, but leftist advocates for issues that (sometimes) align with libertarian positions.
Because when those positions become antithetical to libertarianism in practice, they stay on the side of the pet issue.
Very hard to believe people that advocate for more government, and more government control, especially over religious institutions are libertarians.
The Respect for Woke-Religion Act…….
The only religion where sodomy (deviant sexual acts) is an act of wholesome family values. It’s for the children don’t ya know.. /s
I suppose if people want to be deviants in their own private homes with consenting adults all the more power to them. Allowing children into their homes (obviously not theirs – hut hum nature) is questionable. Requiring everyone to recognize them as a wholesome ?family? … really??? Taking a codified name of religious entities? NOT ACCEPTABLE….
If sexual deviants want to name their relationships they pick a new name for it. They don’t get to entitle themselves to one already established because “I didn’t earn an A” “but I deserve one because I’m so special.”
Because lets face the facts here; "marriage" is either a sacred union of religion or a premise to offspring.. I never had anything to do with butt-poking.
The simple fact is that homosexuals cannot get married, despite some silly laws saying they can.
They could pass a law that says a German Shepherd is a person, but it doesn't make it so.
Marriage requires consummation, and homosexuals can do noting more than mutual masturbation.
No consummation, no marriage.
The law is sold as containing religious-liberty protections, but those protections are inadequate.
The preamble says: “Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.”
But in the fine print, “proper respect” does not specifically include freedom from bake-the-cake litigation or IRS harassment.
What the purported religious-freedom “protections” do is open up the whole question for discussion – without that language, they could say “this has nothing to do with the private sector, it simply involves the behavior of governments,” etc. That would be technically accurate on a literalistic level, though naive about the political and legal context.
But having opened up the issue of religious freedom in the text of the bill, they necessarily open up scrutiny into whether their religious-freedom protections are adequate, and, spoiler alert, they aren’t.
“this has nothing to do with the private sector, it simply involves the behavior of governments,” is what the “civil rights” laws should have said, but once the tyrants were allowed to get away with ordering us to give up on freedom of association, then the tyranny has continued, apace until we will end up like the “citizens” in 1984.
P.S. The libertarian position used to be that the government went too far with the non-discrimination laws, when they made them apply to individuals and private businesses. If REASON is any guide, it no longer is.
What it actually says (which Scott does not say)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8404/text
What Scott says:
"The Respect for Marriage Act does not resolve conflict over whether private businesses can be forced by law to provide goods and services for gay weddings."
What I say:
The act is yet another "Lawyers Enrichment and Legal Harassment Act" to be used as a club to beat individuals into submission.
Specifically 1738C/(b) and (c);
Ҥ 1738C. Certain acts, records, and proceedings and the effect thereof
“(a) In General.—No person acting under color of State law may deny—
“(1) full faith and credit to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State pertaining to a marriage between 2 individuals, on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals; or
“(2) a right or claim arising from such a marriage on the basis that such marriage would not be recognized under the law of that State on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals.
“(b) Enforcement By Attorney General.—The Attorney General may bring a civil action in the appropriate United States district court against any person who violates subsection (a) for declaratory and injunctive relief.
“(c) Private Right Of Action.—Any person who is harmed by a violation of subsection (a) may bring a civil action in the appropriate United States district court against the person who violated such subsection for declaratory and injunctive relief.
“(d) State Defined.—In this section, the term ‘State’ has the meaning given such term under section 7 of title 1.”.
(1) No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice, and family.
^Says Congress. All the people wedded to their employers, their jobs, their charitable services, all the blood unions between siblings, parents and children, grandparents and grandchildren, any perceived union around duty, fidelity, devotion, and sacrifice to God and Country, or liberty… none higher or more profound than the union that can be consummated and dissolved in a weekend.
Hell, between waiting periods and straw purchases, several states would objectively hold the union between a firearms purchaser and their purchase more inviolate. Who cares if Drew Peterson killed his third wife and disappeared his fourth? Congress says there’s no higher union!
none higher or more profound than the union that can be consummated and dissolved in a weekend.
While drunk in Vegas!
That is funny. The bill actually says that SEC. 2. Findings.
(2) Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.
The Respect the Woke-Religion Act........ As I've said all along.
It's all about legislating religion by the very wording in the bill.
"ongoing protection that marriage affords to families and children."
Humorously; butt-poking doesn't produce family or children.
Do you mean that the lower end of the alimentary canal isn't a reproductive organ?
Who'd have thought?
The RFMA seems to have addressed the highest religious issue and the one where agreement is broadest. That is in the actual marriage act. But this is consistent with most current laws. The government does not force a rabbi to marry two people if both are not Jewish, or a Catholic priest to marry a couple if one is not Catholic. (Many will, but this not required).
The differences seem to be in how far to allow religious exemptions as a person distance increases from involvement in the marriage act. Many can see and understand the cake makers wish not to make the cake. Would those same people understand if a person said they did not want to refill the green beans on the steam table at the reception? The underlying question is can we craft religious freedom laws that address the many differing religious beliefs and their relative importance to the individual.
For me personally, I limit the religious freedom to the marriage act. A person or an institution cannot be forced to marry a couple. In the realm of the public square, I think a person must obey the anti-discrimination laws. If you provide a product or service to any you must provide that to all.
A private contract to provide a good or service is not "in the realm of the public square". Providing a service that per force requires expression of ideas, such as decorating a wedding cake, must never be coerced—to do so is clearly a First Amendment violation. Services involving creative expression are way beyond the original intent of "public accommodation" laws—having to choose a different baker to make your wedding cake is in no way comparable to being unable to travel or do business because of "white only" signs on gas stations, hotels, and restaurants.
If you believe that non-discrimination laws are properly within the power of any government, when applied to individuals or private businesses/organizations, then you are no libertarian.
the IRS or federal government will use religious opposition to same-sex marriage to attack the tax-exempt status of religious organizations.
Good. Why shouldn't churches be paying taxes? Most "churches" these days are primarily entertainment facilities anyway.
Two guys in suits... riiiiight.
How dare you presume their genders.
Genders are sexist! lol....
And there you have it. The entire Woke-Religion in a nutshell.
How to defy reality. That's how we know it's a religion.
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I still oppose the legislation because marriage in not the government’s business. The business of government is to defend liberty, period.
Marriage law is decided by the states, but has implications in federal law.
- Tax cuts, shared-SS, shared-Medicaid benefits
i.e. "Helpless me" female entitlements & Federal employee co-dependency benefits.
- Family immigration petitions
Civil unions, on the other hand, aren’t recognized under federal law. (ALL BE.... The direction it should be going in...)
So what's so important about being deemed "married" instead of a civil union?
FEDERAL *entitle me* laws written for those "helpless me" females.
If Democrats really wanted to be fair they'd be lobbying for "helpless me" entitlement cancellation (UN-Constitutional) and insisting the federal government doesn't define their relationships.
Predictably; they are doing the exact opposite of both of those things because what they say they are after is usually exactly OPPOSITE what they are really after.
....the repeating/self-sustaining curses of National('feds') Crony-Socialism.
There's a reason the USA was defined NOT socialist.
Even if the law doesn't require states to legalize same-sex marriage, if it requires them to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states, isn't that nearly the same thing? If a state banned gay marriage, but has to recognize gay marriages performed in other states, then a ban on gay marriage effectively becomes a bureaucratic hurdle where in order to get their home state to recognize their marriage, a gay couple must drive to another state and have the ceremony there. The only gay marriages it would prevent would be ones where the participants are unable to leave their state for some reason.
Correct... Stepping stone for MORE National Socialism over Constitutional Federalism.
This is a state's issue period. If one State has different rules, then the States can work it out no need for the Federal Govt to be involved. In fact, the Federal Govt has no authority (any branch) in marriage. Not listed as a delegate power.
And I wonder why if we have gay marriage enshrined by the woke Federal Cultural Marxists why not polygamy? Seriously why not? I understand the gay community is against that. Why? nothing different than gay marriage. I'm sure we will have "non binary, 100 genders" marriages soon (not sure the difference but the trannie community will scream for attention and somehow it will be federal law). And then you know what's next...MAP marriage. Reason will of course support a pedo marrying a 10 year old cause..well that is what Reason seems to be about these days...that and sexual mutilation of kids by groomers right Scott?
Just out of interest, leaving same sex marriage aside, what is the current law and practice for states recognising each others marriage laws ?
So for example , if State A permits sexual intercourse within marriage from age 17, but State B only permits sexual intercourse within marriage at 18, what happens when 17 year olds Mr and Mrs A-Stater go on vacation to State B. Does State B waive its 18 year old age of consent for them ? Is State B obliged to make this waiver by federal law ? Or does our vacationing couple face arrest for performing their conjugal duties in State B ?
Like refraining from smoking weed in State B.
As-if "conjugal duties" was such a serious necessity.
Not that said State even has that kind of intrusive Constitutional authority legitimately.
Or does our vacationing couple face arrest for performing their conjugal duties in State B ?
No personal offense, but you've inverted the logic. In some places euphemistically, but others legally and while there are certainly useful idiots among the advocates of RFMA, this inversion is the intent of its more malicious advocates.
Specifically, State B does *not* have a law saying "Arrest any adult holding a marriage license to which the partner is a minor." further, when you say 'conjugal duties', presumably you're euphemistically referring to sex and not referring to an actual 'duty' such as mutual agreement to file taxes jointly or, potentially, paying child support. It may seem pedantic but, as indicated, this is the specific ambiguity that's woven into the law.
Traditionally, working on stated suppositions as clearly as indicated/interpreted. State B would make an arrest on something akin to statutory rape. To wit, marriage isn't an exoneration any more than it's an exoneration of extra-marital prostitution or tax fraud regardless of the state in which it was performed. But, again, the whole point of the RFMA and the specific ambiguity it introduces is such that one state *could* conceptually enshrine actual sex as a "conjugal duty" and invoke the RFMA to compel said duty in another state.
All of which may sound convoluted and speculative but that's the point, the law itself is proposed in speculation of SCOTUS action and is specifically written to generate vaguely-defined "good" outcomes in spite of any/all potentially or plainly obvious shitty interpretations. Some of this is specifically to destroy the institution of marriage, which I'm not really opposed to, the problem lies in the fact that it also, as you indicate, distorts or corrodes other social structures that should be preserved.
Er, I was just asking the question I asked, because I'm curious. And yes "conjugal duties" was a euphemism for sex.
What I gathered from your answer was that, so far as you are aware, whatever "recognition" States may currently give to marriages conducted in other States, that doesn't constitute a waiver from generally applicable State law - such as laws regulating the age of consent.
The federal government should get out of the marriage business, there's nothing in the Constitution about the feds having a role in marriage. No one should get special treatment on taxes or anything because they're married. No one should be required to pay the quitting party in a divorce. All of these things are BAD LAW, they are UNJUST and spreading that unjust shit to MORE PEOPLE, and simultaneously making it impossible to exercise the freedom of association to not cater to fags is BULLSHIT.
Where in Article I, Section 8 is Congress granted power to regulate marriage? Can someone please point that out to me?
I vaguely remember that multiple businesses can sign a contract.
If marriage is only a contract, the why not polygamous marriages?
Maybe those multiple spousal benefits would be too expensive? We know how jealously they guard the public fisc over in Congress.
If gay marriage is as popular as claimed, why did they postpone voting on this until after the mid-terms? You would think they wouldn't have any problem voting on non-controversial legislation anytime.
No balls, even for making the right decision.
“Historically, the Government Was Very Uninvolved in Marriage.”
The only dissenters to this consensus appear to be some libertarians like Ron Paul. For example, in 2012, Paul told a rally audience “I’d like to see all governments out of the marriage question. I don’t think it’s a state decision. I think it’s a religious function.” These comments followed earlier comments from Paul contending that “Biblically and historically, the government was very uninvolved in marriage.”
Paul is right in saying that marriage historically had (often) been a matter for religious authorities instead of agents of the civil governments. Yet, given the rise of the modern sovereign state, which is currently the ultimate legal authority on virtually all matters, it has become difficult to even imagine the particulars of the historical reality to which Paul refers.
Nonetheless, state regulation of marriage—and the ensuing secularization of marriage that followed—is a historical development that was part of the larger trend toward the expansion and consolidation of state power that began in the late Middle Ages. It was during this period that states gradually came to exercise monopolistic authority over all of society’s institutions including the towns, the nobility, and even the monarchies themselves. Also brought under the state’s power were the churches and state control of marriage was an important component of this. State control of marriage, that we now consider to be so normal, was simply one aspect of the state building that set the stage for our modern era of nearly untrammeled state power. - Mises Wire
Of course Reason stays consistent, always for more State power, unless it is Trump.
So, in summary, Congress has finally decided to act like adults and make some of the compromises required so that a large and diverse (gawds I hate how that word has become politicized) country can live in relative peace.
Regarding the unresolved questions, it seems that their exclusion from this act is the resolution itself - it's no more a governmental concern if the 'Olde Tyme Mercan Bakery' doesn't want to make a cake for a wedding of two guys, than it should be that the 'Joe's Pros Plumbing Supply' company only accepts orders from licensed plumbers, or that 'V I Lenin & Co' printers won't print a MAGA poster. Who you choose to contract and work with is a private matter, governments only concern should be to operate disinterested courts to resolve disputes in case of breach of contract.
The thing that shocks me about this article is not its support for same sex marriage. What shocks me is that a contributor for REASON is focusing on yet more legislation being pumped out by the dysfunctional DC quagmire.
The focus by anyone who claims to have libertarian leanings should be: Why are free American citizens allowing their governments (first Federal, then State) to force them into asking permission to marry whomever they choose? Our governments should play no role in our marriages.
Shame on REASON for supporting more government fingers in our business and not insisting on actual LIBERTY.
"What Does the Respect for Marriage Act Actually Say?"
It says "Don't Say Gay". Duh.