In Alaska, Ranked Choice Voting Worked
Partisan outrage over Sarah Palin's defeat shouldn't obscure the obvious benefits of better voting systems.

For the second time in four months, Sarah Palin's attempted political comeback was foiled by voters in Alaska, who reelected Rep. Mary Peltola (D–Alaska) to the state's lone seat in the House of Representatives.
And, yes, it was the voters who picked Peltola, not the system.
Just as happened when Peltola defeated Palin in a special election during the summer, some conservatives have been quick to blame the former governor's defeat on Alaska's recently adopted open-primary/ranked choice voting system. "Ranked choice voting has once again resulted in an election outcome totally unrepresentative of Alaska sentiments, just as supporters wanted," tweeted conservative columnist Ben Domenech shortly after the results of Palin's race were announced on Wednesday night. Domenech was echoing similar complaints lodged by high-profile Republicans, like Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.), who called ranked choice voting "a scam" after Palin lost to Peltola in August's special election for the same House seat.
Those complaints are mostly just partisan hackishness, the sort of excuse making that people on all sides engage in after disappointing elections. Because nonpartisan primaries and ranked choice voting are not commonly used, however, it's worth exploring and debunking these claims.
Far from being a scam or an unrepresentative voting method, ranked choice voting actually encourages voters to look beyond partisan markers and choose (or block) candidates based on their merits.
Under Alaska's new election system, all candidates compete in a single primary contest—rather than in party-specific contests—with the top four vote-getters advancing to the general election. That meant that the general election ballot for Alaska's congressional seat contained four names on Election Day, with Republican Nick Begich and Libertarian Chris Bye qualifying alongside Palin and Peltola.
In the general election, ranked choice voting is used to determine the winner. That means that every voter ranks their choices from one through four. As the votes are counted, there is an "instant runoff" in which votes cast for losing candidates are reallocated to reflect the ranks assigned by individual voters.
To see how this works in practice, let's look at Chris Bye, who finished last in the first round of vote counting. He received 4,560 first-place votes. After being eliminated, those ballots were re-distributed to the other candidates. Begich was the second choice of 1,988 Bye voters, so he received those ballots for the second round. Palin was the second choice of 1,064 Bye voters, and Peltola was the second choice for 1,038 of them.

At that point, no candidate had more than 50 percent of the total, so an additional elimination was necessary. Despite getting a plurality of Bye's votes, Begich was still in third place, so he was eliminated and his votes were reallocated to Palin and Peltola. Voters who had picked Begich as their first choice had their ballots distributed to their second-place choice (unless the second-place choice was Bye), while Bye voters who'd picked Begich second had their votes redistributed to whomever they'd picked as their third choice.
As you might expect since both were Republicans, a majority of Begich's ballots ended up in Palin's pile. But not all of them, and the Begich-to-Peltola pipeline was enough to push the Democratic incumbent over the 50 percent threshold.

Now, here's where the partisan hacks get their boxers in a bind. They look at the first-round totals, see that most Alaskans picked a Republican as their top choice, and conclude that a Republican must therefore represent the state in Congress.
And, of course, that might have been the result if the election was held with single-party primaries and then a single Republican vs. a single Democrat in the general election, as happens in most places in America. But just because that system is more widely used doesn't mean it is more representative, more fair, or more legitimate. Indeed, the chief problem with the more traditional election system is that it forces voters to hold their noses and pick between two bad options. Parties love that, because it means less competition, but the result is a lot of zero-sum politicking and bad policies. And it gives outsized political power to primary election voters, allowing fringe candidates to win power without being broadly endorsed by the general electorate.
Which brings us back to Palin. As in August, she lost because not enough Alaskan voters picked her to represent them in Congress. It's really as simple as that. Ranked choice voting rewards candidates who are viewed as being acceptable even if not ideal by the majority of voters. Palin, for the second time in a handful of months, failed that test.
There are no broader conclusions to be drawn here. Alaska's system doesn't disadvantage Republicans. In fact, in other races, it helped them!
In the state House, Republicans had the lead in just 19 of the 40 districts after the first round of votes were counted earlier this month. After the "instant runoffs" were completed, however, GOP candidates had come from behind to win two additional districts—enough to give Republicans a slim majority in the chamber.
Republicans can also thank ranked choice voting for helping the party hold a crucial seat in the U.S. Senate. In a traditional party-primary system, Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R–Alaska) likely would have been ousted by her Trump-backed challenger, Kelly Tshibaka. Given how other Trump-backed Senate candidates performed in the general election, it's worth wondering whether Tshibaka would have been able to hold the state. Instead, Murkowski narrowly won reelection, in part because she was the preferred second choice of voters who'd initially backed Democratic candidate Pat Chesbro.

Once again, the system rewarded a candidate who was seen as an acceptable alternative. Or, if you like, it punished a candidate who was seen as unacceptable—although Murkowski had narrowly defeated Tshibaka in the first round of voting as well.
This is exactly what the combination of open primaries and ranked choice voting is supposed to do. It encourages voters to express nuanced opinions about individual candidates rather than asking them to blindly mash the "R" or "D" button after being fueled up with months of campaign rage porn. It turns elections into less of a political Super Bowl and more of an actual attempt to gauge the desires of the voting public and triangulate representation around those interests.
"There's every reason to think the wins for Sen. Lisa Murkowski and Rep. Mary Peltola reflect Alaska voters' well-considered preferences," tweeted Walter Olson, a senior fellow for constitutional studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. "Ranked choice voting and the universal primary with which it's paired in Alaska performed as one would want them to. More, please."
No election system is going to be perfect all the time, of course. Each will have its own weird wrinkles and produce the occasional unusual result—and ongoing tweaks to produce even more representative outcomes should be considered
But the one thing that absolutely should not happen is judging the merits of different systems based on which party wins. And if Republicans are unhappy about this outcome, then maybe they should run better candidates next time.
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Bullshit. Palin lost because of fraud. Prove there wasn't fraud. Do a complete audit of the entire election. If it doesn't say Palin won, do a real audit. If that doesn't say Palin won do an actual audit. If that doesn't say Palin won then the entire system is broken.
You can never prove there *wasn't* fraud. This is why it's so dishonest to ever make that claim.
You mean switching the burden of proof is a fallacy?
Edit: that's proof that you're a Democrat. That means you think there is no fraud. That means you voted for Biden. That means...
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As I explain below, there is a fraud being perpetrated but it is by the purveyors of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV), which is being marketed as the ONLY ranked voting system, whereas, in reality it is only one of several but is the absolute worst. It throws away legitimate votes, can cause a candidate to get higher ranking votes to paradoxically LOSE (this is called non-monotonicity).
As I ask below, what happened to all of Begich's votes (rankings) from Palin and other candidates? Answer: THEY WERE THROWN AWAY. Given the way IRV works, I'd bet that a full audit of the ballots using the Condorcet Round Robin voting system would show that the Democrat was NOT the "true majority winner". The people saying that the outcome doesn't make sense are almost certainly right - I'd guess Begich was the winner. IRV is a terrible system objectively and if anyone takes the time to actually research it, they will see that the problem emanates from the throw-away algorithm.
I think the first step to deal with the dangerous non-reform that is IRV is to protest the 501c3 status of the FairVote organization and its various spinoffs on the grounds that it misrepresents how the system works and that it engages in political activities to promote it. I'm beginning this process. Also, Indiana, where I live, has a voter intent law which would make IRV illegal. The true intent of the voter is found in the rankings each voter places on the ballot. If the counting algorithm throws rankings (votes) away, it is NOT honoring the intent of the voters whose ballot is so affected. This is a violation of said law. Also, individual states can go after the FairVote organization on the basis of ordinary fraud.
100%. Ranked voting is an abomination. The author likes it for the same reason most Democrats do, it gets them the result they want. There is nothing wrong with declaring the candidate that gains a plurality, in a 3+ candidate field, the winner. And a party should not be allowed to field more than one candidate. And the burden to get on the ballot should be greater.
If they want to dilute a vote by voting for multiple people. They should dilute their votes.
Right now this process gives some voters multiple votes while the 2nd place voter gets a single vote.
This is another reason I always say we can’t survive as a country with an intact democrat party.
Well yeah, there is something wrong with choosing a representative who doesn't have the support of a majority of voters.
"There is nothing wrong with declaring the candidate that gains a plurality, in a 3+ candidate field, the winner. "
Yes there is it results in a candidate that the majority of people didn't vote for. Now it's possible that said candidate would have won an election against any of their opponents alone, but without RCV you can't say that. You're calling something an abomination because it tells you which candidate would win an election against any of the other candidates. You actually prefer a less representative system.
The problem is that you really cannot say that with RCV either. The objection to it is not that it gives an incongruous result in a specific election, it is that it is a gimmick that lacks transparency. Also, open primaries are abominations, as they defeat the purpose of what a primary is for.
1. Traditional primaries are bad (gives control of nominee to fringe voters, results in less representative candidates), so defeating the purpose of what a primary is for is a good thing.
2. Lack of transparency? How? The article is pretty clear about how this particular race worked. What wasn't transparent? Be specific.
RCV is strictly superior to 'traditional' voting, by any metric.
"Lack of transparency" = Doesn't understand because he flunked 3rd grade arithmetic.
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Arizona's entrenched Statehouse looter Kleptocracy passed a law forcing Libertarians to collect a cruel and unusual # of signatures to get us back on the ballot. This is the ballot the anarco-communist albatross knocked us off of. That insures them against regular spoiler votes AND these goofy "improved" gimmicks.
Ranked voting is NOT an abomination. The ranked voting system known as IRV, however, IS. What the FairVote people who are pushing IRV have done is to make it likely that the ACTUAL VOTING REFORM, the ranked system known as Condorcet Voting, will be lumped in with IRV and we end up losing it.
The only solution is for people to spend a little time and learn about voting science - that is, "Social Choice Theory" and understand why Condorcet's system is the best.
I know that some people get confused by Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, which concludes there is no "perfect voting system" except dictatorship. So what. Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is impossible to develop an algorithm that will produce the natural numbers. Does that mean we quit trying to do math? Of course not. Condorcet is not perfect, merely optimal.
You can't prove a negative. You know that, I know that. But MAGA heads do not know that. Not being mean to them, most people don't know that. It's the most classic of all classic fallacies.
p.s. There is always some amount of fraud. But the claim being made is that Biden won only because of the fraud. That's a positive claim, and it can be tested. Yet all tests to demonstrate that fraud caused Biden to win have failed. There's just no evidence for it. Claims that there are a kraken's worth of evidence is a testable hypothesis. But it's been tested and found wanting.
Most of those aforementioned claims were not decided on evidence. For example, many were dismissed because of ‘standing’. So don’t try and make those claims, they’ve been debunked here in great detail.
You cannot prove something didn't happen. You have to prove it did happen. So, show your evidence that there was fraud.
I have no problem with the Alaskan result; stupid Republicans ran two candidates to split the vote.
But "worked" because it got the result you wanted? Would have have written the same title and same story if Palin had won?
Good grief, man, could you try to be a little more tone deaf? You could set records next time.
In 1933 Germany, Parliamentary Voting Worked
In 1860 Alabama, Racist Voting Worked
In Every Communist Country Everywhere and Every Time, Rigged Voting Worked
You are missing the point. If the "stupid Republicans" had run only one candidate, the outcome would have been the same. 7,460 of the 'conservative' voters would have chosen Peltola over Palin.
Prove it.
That's the amount she picked up in three rounds. There was 10,000 who didn't pick a second or third choice, it's much harder to say what they would have done, but they didn't seem to want to vote for Peltota. They had the chance and didn't. It's much harder to say they would not have voted for Palin as they were mostly Republican voters and the Republican party in Alaska has been pretty adamant that they didn't like ranked choice voting. Also, considering Alaska's voting history, Boehm's take on the senatorial out come is completely pulled out of his ass (and it also didn't hurt that the Democratic party in Alaska endorsed Murkowski as the second choice of Democratic voters, it would be interesting to see how many Murkowski voters chose her Republican opponent as second choice).
Jeeze
, literalist idiot. You can’t prove an alternative reality. The figures almost certainly would have been different without two Republicans on the ballot.ETA to not be so angry.
You can show what she actually got when people picked a second choice. That's a solid data point in which you can extrapolate a hypothesis. Ignoring that to tell people not to be mad is ignoring data that doesn't support your hypothesis. I'm not mad so much as I'm unconvinced ranked choice is any better (especially with the top four primary Alaska has) because it appears that gamesmanship was as important as choice, especially in the senatorial race. It's barely better than California's and Washington's top two system. The Democrats did a lot of gamesmanship this cycle (they've always have) and in Alaska they insured one Democrat would be running against two Republicans. So, instead of solving anything, it just changes the rules slightly but it's still the same old game. And it does absolutely nothing for third parties, who still haven't broke out of low single digits in any state that does rank choice.
The party should decide the nominee,either by primary or by convention. And have only one candidate per party. By keeping two of the same party on the ticket, especially
Sorry fucking glitch.
I was saying, especially if the two candidates overlap enough that it becomes a contest of personality. Study after study show that voters tend to accept and support their parties nominee after the primaries, but with two from the same party running, the chance for reconciliation is eliminated and some will remain 'no one but my guy'. The Democratic party in Alaska is pretty weak, but usually gets 47 % or so on average, given this, the eventual winner actually underperformed previous Democrats in the first round. But she was able to capture enough of the historic base, while her opponents split their larger, historic base, and were unable to reconcile because of the primary system advanced two candidates, which is pretty much guaranteed in Alaska (unless the party can force out any other candidate before the primary). Given the advantage Republicans have, there is almost guaranteed to be two candidates in the top four but unlikely to be two Democrats. The only way for Republicans to avoid this is by having an unchallenged incumbent running or by taking choice away from primary voters.
Murkowski is a whole different kettle of fish. She is an incumbent from a powerful political dynasty in the state, that lost the primary except for the aforementioned top four advancement who openly conspired with the other party to aid their congressional candidate in return for them aiding her in the senatorial race. Again, dirty politics (which the Murkowski family is infamous for). Seems rather than fixing anything, ranked choice instead has created another system Democrats can manipulate for their benefit. It doesn't help Palin was a decent governor until she received the VP nomination and then went downhill (partially due to out of state advocacy groups filing endless lawsuit against her).
it would be interesting to see the results if you could choose the same person as your second and third choice.
What is the argument against that?
it would be like saying - if my first choice doesnt win the most first choice votes I want him to win the most 2nd choice votes, and so on.
That doesn't make any sense. RCV works by eliminating the candidate with the least votes in each 'round' until a winner emerges. A voter's second pick is only looked at when their first pick is eliminated.
So in your hypothetical, you write Bob as your first choice and second choice. Bob gets the least votes and gets eliminated in the first round. So the system looks at your second vote, which is also Bob, and he's been eliminated, so it goes instead to your 3rd choice.
The way to do that is list no one in slot 2 3 or 4. That says Sarah's my one and only. But since she's only 1 person she can't come in both first and second in your mind. If she's the only one, list her as the only one.
Leave it to Reason to use Murkowski’s win to show ranked choice voting works for Republicans.
If ballots printed receipts (even just internally so that it remains secret) it would lead to less claims of fraud. But really, nothing stops anybody from claiming fraud from anything.
Since no one has discovered a Zelaznian access to alternate realities, I can't "prove" it any more than you can prove your hypothesis. The available evidence, however, is a lot more supportive of my hypothesis than yours. Begich might have split the party vote in the first round but it was entirely re-combined by the third.
I am one of those Alaska voters, and selected pretty much an "anyone but Palin" ballot. I didn't even list her as a choice at all.
My actual complaint is that the primary is "pick one". Would much rather have had more than one choice there.
What was it about Palin platform that differed enough from Begich that made you decide Perolta would be a better choice than Palin? I'm wondering, because I think your answer would further support my thesis below that when platform policies are very similar that it comes down to personal characteristics and thus you are willing to even have a candidate that you disagree with on policy over the candidate you don't like some personal trait but tend to agree on policy. This is actually a pretty well documented phenomena in sociology, psychology and anthropology. It also is similar to the classic sociological experiment known as the prisoners dilemma. And is partially the basis of game theory.
Note, prisoners dilemma is a practical exercise to represent a practical example of game theory.
I do not reject Palin over any policy position but rather the way she resigned as governor (a time at which I was also an Alaska resident). Someone who quits the way she did has no political future, IMO.
In her defense, when you're being bled dry by countless frivolous ethic complaints and no means of creating a defense fund to help cover the costs, it seems like the only option one has.
Don't care. Someone who quits once over petty shit will do it again.
Financial ruin is "petty shit"?
Demented mystical Trilbies have no political future, except maybe in Iran, Germany, Hungary. A mixed economy trending toward libertarian policies is trending AWAY from religious fascism.
That is true. Assume both Grabbers of Pussy were melted together into a single Siamese-twin blob. That still does NOT add up to 50%+1. The Libertarian candidate's votes are 5.5 times the gap between the looter gangs, so we'd have an LP candidate throwing the thing into runoffs. Then the Race-Suicide Nazis and East German Dems could gut-wrenchingly to ponder the virtues of planks demanding girl-bullying, asset forfeiture and zillions of taxes & regulations. THAT tantalizing agony is what changes laws.
You may be right. The problem is not that the Republicans ran too many candidates, it that they ran the wrong candidate. The RCV system favor candidates with broader appeal. Palin lacks that broad appeal and might have lost even if she was the only Republican.
Boehm is an evil, totalitarian clump of cancer.
Why do you people still pretend otherwise?
Who else do you want to murder?
Are you putting words in his mouth? Because it looks like it, and we all know that’s the worst crime of all.
Cancer is something to be killed without question. You don't negotiate with it. You kill it.
According to Nardz, anyone left of Trump is cancer. What do you do with cancer? You kill it. You don't negotiate with it.
To call people cancer is to say they must be killed. No negotiating. Eliminate life. Kill people. Except they're not people. They're cancer. Put them in rail cars. and ship them off. They're not people.
The Republicans are pretty stupid but Begich, from a long line of democrats, ran himself. I assume it was specifically to split the vote and get a democrat elected. They do that in Chicago all the time, how do you think a gargoyle like Lightfoot gets elected?
" I assume it was specifically to split the vote and get a democrat elected. "
Then Begich is an idiot. Splitting the vote doesn't work in RCV because the vote splitter or the one they're splitting the vote from gets eliminated. If Begich picked up votes that would have gone to Palin then they would have gone back to Palin once he was eliminated. So splitting the vote did not cost Palin anything.
And Begich came reasonable close to finishing second, in which case Palin's second place votes might have elected him.
> stupid Republicans ran two candidates to split the vote.
Akshually, the party did not run two candidates. Two candidates ran themselves. Big difference. The GOP can nominate candidates, but it cannot prevent qualified candidates from running.
It's a big problem in my state of California where we have fake (fake!) ranked voting in the form of Top Two. In order to get to the top two it's important that only one good solid Republican run. And a few races were "spoiled" by more than one R on the ballot. Which is why I hate this stupid Top Two system. Ranked choice voting is better.
Why is a libertarian magazine fond of an electoral system that immediately labels them "Eliminated"?
I think you know why, but you continually mock the people that reach that same conclusion in other articles.
The people I mock are the simple minds that see politics as a left-right paradigm, and interpret any disagreement with their team as support for the other team.
Progressives think libertarians are hardcore conservatives.
Conservatives think libertarians are hardcore progressives.
They can't both be right.
Sadly nobody thinks you're libertarian.
“Sadly nobody thinks you’re libertarian.” Says the guy who shows up every day to whine about a libertarian news site he disagrees with. Also, you don’t speak for everyone that reads these comments. Personally, I find you immensely annoying. You and your fellow mean girls have basically ruined what once was a place for intelligent discourse.
Because a) that's an election system that actually reflects the will of the people, not everyone thinks a system is bad because they can't currently win with it.
b) because it probably increases libertarian votes since voting for parties that you believe will lose still makes sense in "ranked choice voting". Indeed RCV is a key part of defeating the two party system you have in the USA. As long as you have the biggest number of votes in one round winning strategic voting which massively favors the big 2.
c) It more accurately reflects the will of the voters. It is a better system.
Only takes, what, 2 weeks to get anything resembling a result? In a state that is, let's be honest, not exactly populous?
I sure Alaska because of the size and low population would take a while to get all votes in anyway. I assume that part of the reason the process takes longer is because the public and the new media get the vote count piecemeal. If the media got the full ballot count, that is each rank counted, they could likely using a computer have results in a few minutes. As it is the first round is counted and then the second-round data is released. And this goes on until a winner is found. It is the wait time from the round count to the decision to move to another round that lengthens the process.
But notice in each of the races, two Reps and only 1 Dem were on the ballot.
That meant all Dem voters had only 1 choice for their party while the Reps could and did split their vote.
Moral of the story - NEVER run more than 1 candidate for your party in a RCV system...
That is not the moral of ranked-choice voting at all. The only way you could possibly think that is if you assume that all voters put party loyalty above everything else in their decision-making.
That is the lesson when the election/counting method is IRV. The lesson would be different with a better method.
The moral of the story is to run two Republicans that every Republican can agree is better than the Democrat.
That totally ignores human psychology, namely if the party base all agree both candidates are better than the other party, it's likely because there is extremely minimal to no difference in policy, and therefore it would devolve into a competition of personality (which Palin vs Begich basically was both times). In competition of character, with little to no policy differences, you tend to create more animosity rather than less between supporters. History shows this time and time again. The only way to avoid that would be both candidates from the same party to be basically carbon copies on both policy, personality, and likely physical, religious, socioeconomic backgrounds etc. In a four person popularity contest, especially when one clique tends to be more dominant, sociology and anthropology almost universally agree that if you have two persons from the popular clique running while only one candidate from the lesser but next largest clique, that the latter individual has an advantage over the former two. It's also more likely that within the popular clique (and parties are basically cliques) that both persons representing that clique likely are strongly disliked by some minority of people within that clique, enough to create defections (especially if it can be done anonymously). They either won't vote or even cast a protest vote for the candidate they agree with the least.
This would actually be more pronounced in cliques/parties that are more appealing to indivualists than in cliques/parties that appeal to more collectivists. The reason is pretty self explanatory.
The parties two or more candidates don't need to have the same platform, but they need a more inclusive platform. The more popular primary/main election process favors a candidate with a strong base, even when that base does not have broad appeal. This pushes a political divide wider than would occur with RCV.
Agree
Yes the Dems had one choice for who to put first on their ballot. But the Reps had a choice of who to put second. If 50%+1 had put either Palin and Begich as their first and second choices, the Rs would have won. That's the whole point, splitting the vote doesn't matter in RCV because the vote gets recombined. The Republicans didn't lose because people voted for Begich instead of Palin, they lost because people voted for Peltota instead of Palin. If literally everyone who preferred Palin to Peltota had voted for Palin in the first round, she still would not have won.
Exactly correct. Claiming the vote is diluted or 'siphoned off' shows a clear ignorance of how this system works.
This is why you combine RCV with an open primary. Open primaries fail in the purpose of a primary, which is for parties to select the candidate they are running.
Open primary with RCV is a bad system.
I'd go for open primaries where your vote is locked in if your candidate wins. Vote for some rando Democrat or Republican in the primary --- then your vote ALSO transfers to them in the general, since they were your preference clearly.
Frankly, open primaries are a joke. If you're not a member of a particular organization, in this case a political party, why should you have any say in who represents that party in an election? Should I get a vote on who's on the board of NOW or Planned Parenthood? Ranked choice only magnifies the problems. If you really want to have open elections just have one official elections and let the parties pick their candidates outside of the government.
Because my taxes pay for the damned thing. If parties want closed primaries, they can host it and pay for it themselves.
I have no problem with that. I don't think the state should be in the business of parties selecting their representative.
But, I'd note that my (federal) taxes pay help pay for Planned Parenthood. So, again, why don't I get a vote on who's on their board?
That's how it used to be and progressive leftists screamed that the people were being disenfranchised. So states mandated elective primaries. Then progressive leftists screamed that state money was being used to shut people out of the process. So open primaries were mandated. You can't have it both ways. If people have a right to gather together in political parties and choose their nominee in any way they see fit then you can't simultaneously mandate electoral AND open primaries without taking away that right.
And then they should have to satisfy the same criteria to get on the ballot as independent and minor party candidates. And they should not have their party nomination mentioned on the ballot.
The actual goal of ranked choice voting was to make sure the loathsome Lisa Murkowski would remain in the senate in her primary role as the Turtles yes woman.
And that's the problem. All these voting schemes are all centered around trying to rejigger the results of elections to make their results more palatable to their proponents. I'd note that there's a bit of an irony in a libertarian magazine advocating open primaries when the Libertarian Party seems to require that anyone voting be both a party member and present at the convention.
I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, yet I am still forced to choose one or the other, to have an effective vote in a primary. Otherwise I'm just voting on local referendums and such. Really, as a not-D and not-R, I should get to vote in both primaries, on the same day.
Term limits are the answer.
Term limits are worse than the status quo. They result in power devolving to unelected political staff rather than politicians which is probably the only group we should want in power less than politicians.
Term limits empower lobbyists and most of them are government employees. Legislators are thrilled when ordinary citizens speak to them because they're tired of lobbyists.
Having lived in a state that imposed term limits, they are definitely not the answer.
In Ohio, we thought that term limits would reduce the power of lifetime legislators and that the power would gradually revert to the people. They did indeed reduce the power of legislators but that power was immediately hoovered up by the unelected bureaucrats in government.
I'm not saying that there is no place for term limits - only that they are not the panacea many seem to think.
We've been taught for a century that the patronage system was completely a system with few if any positives and almost exclusively negatives, however, there were very few career bureaucrats and the bureaucracy remained extremely small (possibly a bit to small for certain vital tasks like maintaining a peacetime military capable of providing a strong trained and experienced cadre during wartime expansions). Since we ended patronage, the size of the bureaucracy has grown exponentially, and taken more power unto itself.
As for term limits, we have them in Montana and they seem to work okay. Then again, the proggies are always whining that our bureaucracy is to weak. So, maybe the answer is term limits only after you weaken and shrink the bureaucracy significantly.
I'm all for bringing back patronage. Bare minimum, SOMEBODY is responsible for terrible bureaucratic decisions, namely the President who put them in office.
Can you give examples of the increased power unelected bureaucrats assumed, and how that redounded to the ill of the public? I'm very interested.
I believe elections are term limits; however, it may be necessary to limit House leadership positions, since we don't have a vote in those at all. This is most probably where the true issues lie for a lot of the divisiveness, and it is also something to note that Speaker of the House is second in line to the presidency. Two total terms of two years seems about right, IMO, for both House and Senate committees heads and above. This still gives ample leeway to build up over years but limits potential to get a bit too cozy in power.
Murkowski has been dumped by the republicans twice. She was saved again by McConnell's money and a stupid voting system guaranteed to elect her. Crucial? She votes against the republicans 43% of the time.
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There’s a lot of power in being Queen Rino. Ask Romney.
Dumped by Republicans... but elected by Alaskans.
It’s certainly no surprise that party hacks would look at ranked choice voting through the lens of electing a party instead of the voters choosing a particular candidate based on personal attributes. It’s also no surprise that Republican hacks are criticizing the system that elected a Democrat in a previously safely Republican state. If ranked choice had elected a Republican in a previously safely Democratic state, you can bet they would have been the ones to criticize ranked choice systems. Maybe both parties should consider choosing their candidates based on integrity rather than party loyalty. Situational ethics is rampant in American civic affairs and will only get worse the closer we get to bankruptcy, both philosophical and economic.
What good does integrity do if it's evil integrity, or the integrity of evil, or whatever you'd call it? I'd rather have someone who sells out to the good than a villain who can't be bought.
Yeah I made this exact point in a stupid education class during college. At one point I idiotically thought I would be a teacher.
The lesson that day was about drawing out the student's internal thoughts and views and beliefs. "Helping them become them." I spoke up. Well what if I have Hitler in my class? I don't want to draw out and help his refine his beliefs. I want to squash his beliefs at all costs and replace them with good ones.
As I recall, I didn't get much of a response from the "professor" and he moved on.
It's the same concept of assholes where some people say "well at least he's being himself and you know where he stands." That's not helpful at all if "himself" = "asshole". I'd rather deal with a secret asshole who hates me internally but is cordial, than an open asshole.
Me too. Some people think it's more evil when the extermination camp guard, or just anyone in position of authority, is polite when he snubs you. I say it may not be much, but I'd rather my torturer at least be polite than be impolite on top of it all. And conversely I'll take the bribe from someone who hates my guts.
Imagine a pie contest in which a pie voted second place by judges can win first place by siphoning off votes from the third and fourth place pies. So in this contest, its possible the best tasting pie does not win.
Here's an example I saw from the internet which illustrates why RVC is a bad idea - Under Alaska's system, "Derek Chauvin is guilty", "not guilty", and "I don't know" all advance to the general election. Guilty narrowly wins first round, and I don't know is eliminated. But most of those voters had not guilty as their second choice. So Chauvin is not guilty.
Imagine any crucial business and personal decision in which your job, financial security and personal wellbeing are at stake. Would you EVER use RCV as a final arbiter? When was the last time it happened?
The question isn't whether RCV is fair or legitimate. It's whether it's a good idea in a fractured nation where low info voters already hold too much sway. Do you give these people multiple chances to make bad decisions? Theoretically, a more populist democrat could beat a top vote getting libertarian by appealing to the MAGA crowd. This is less "representation" of people then certain alliances winning out. It will lead to loss of liberty because candidates have to mind fringe voices.
Ranked choice voting has yet to live up to the hype that it's supporters have been pushing. As we can see in Alaska, gamesmanship won the day, because Alaska is red enough that a top four primary pretty much guarantees two Republicans and one Democrat and one LP. This results in the inability to create reconciliation in Republicans, giving the Democratic candidate the advantage in a unified base and continued bad blood in the Republican base. Murkowski won because the Democratic congressional candidates endorsed her and the party campaigned to get their voters to pick her as their second choice. Mitch didn't help either (rather not win if he doesn't get his way Mitch). And the third parties haven't increased their share of the vote in any state with ranked choice. Another thing, it appears the incumbents all won despite ranked choice in statewide races, so ranked choice didn't even eliminate the power of incumbency (or at least there's no evidence that it did).
One of the biggest advantages that explains why incumbents win is that they usually run unchallenged or with weak,underfunded challengers, in the primaries, meaning they tend to have very little bad blood in their base.
The best thing Republicans can do next term, is the party to pressure all contenders to drop out, except the party favorite (giving the party more power) and play the Democrats game of crossing party lines during the primaries, to nominate two Democrats. That's what I would do if I were the head of the Alaskan Republican Candidate (also, the Alaskan Republican Party did censure Murkowski, so calling her the Republican candidate winner is a huge stretch). Yeah, the trick seems to be more games, more party control, less voter choice. Yep,RCV really worked. SMH.
You think voters are that spiteful, that they'd deliberately rank someone they like better lower than someone they like less, because s/he's too much like the one the like best?
Meanwhile XM's guilty/not guilty example is inapt, because it has to do with entirely different kinds of choices than preferences among candidates. However, the pie contest is not bad and is effectively why Budweiser and Miller are so dominant in the beer market. Where people have to settle within a constrained set of choices — a bar that can stock only so many beers, or a group that's ordering a pitcher — it makes sense for the most acceptable beer to be chosen, although it may be nobody's favorite. Budweiser will tell you they don't try to be anybody's favorite beer, only widely acceptable.
No, they will just not vote at all. And yes they will vote for the other guy. See Mitch McConnell's actions this year.
No, the big reason they became dominant (along with Coors in third) was because they offered consistency across the nation. I could order some local brew, but not be sure of the quality or buy a Coors, which I'm familiar with. This is how they became dominant in the late 19th early 20th century. And why they survived prohibition while most local breweries went out of business (both tried to retool for other production but as soon as prohibition was repealed, the big three were better situated to meet the now legal demand. This is also why Jim Beam and Jack Daniels dominate the American Whiskey market, and also why the majority of large whiskey distillers sell blended whiskey. It's also why when Americans travel, anywhere in the world, the most likely place they'll eat at is McDonald's. It's called familiarity. This is also why it's hard to attract voters as a new party, or third party, people are familiar with the two dominant parties.
To take that analogy further, companies like Walmart and Starbucks have actually seen that when stores are in close proximity and there is a third option nearby, people, who normally bought from Starbucks or Walmart will be more likely to visit the other option.
You also see this with the growth of Microbrews. When everything on tap was a Budweiser/Annheiser Busch product, except one tap for a microbrew, that more people bought the microbrew that normally would have bought a Budweiser product. When Budweiser distributors saw this, they began restricting the number of Budweiser products delivered, so that the bars had more taps to offer alternatives, and sales usually returned to average.
There's some really interesting psychological and marketing theories based around these observations (and several other social and historical examples that shows in group conflict tends to be much more personal than intragroup conflict).
For example Pompey and Julius Caesar had been in laws, shared political power and had similar, overlapping populi leanings, the resulting Civil War was pretty devasting. In fact, civil wars tend to be the bloodiest wars with the most atrocities committed. Another example, Stalinists and Trotskyists. The 30 years War. The War of the Roses, English Civil War etc. Rome was only able to conquer Gaul because many Gaulish chiefs allied with Rome against their own tribes or neighboring tribes. The scouts that tracked down Geronimo were Apache from another band. Most of Crook's Scouts during the Nez Perce Wars were also Nez Perce. The Pope authorized the first crusade more to exert his power over the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than counter Islamic aggression (the Orthodox inhabitants of Acre were massacred while the Islamic and Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem were much better treated). For that matter Sunni vs Shi'a. I could go on, because there are such a multitude of examples, Lincoln winning the 1860 election is another, that we literally could be here all night.
I still think IRV is a good way to judge pies. I've seen the equivalent done in a mead contest, the judges eliminating from the bottom.
Maybe the problem is that people run as candidates for a party. Maybe people should just run, and the party can separately choose to endorse one (or not).
I'd be a fan of removing 'party' from the ballot entirely. If you don't know which party they belong to by their name, your vote deserves to be random with respect to party.
"Imagine a pie contest in which a pie voted second place by judges can win first place by siphoning off votes from the third and fourth place pies. So in this contest, its possible the best tasting pie does not win."
Ok you don't understand the system at all. If a pie got voted best by the majority of judges, that pie wins. If no pie has a majority of judges voting for it then it's not "siphoning off votes" to go to RCV. It's the people who voted for the least popular pie (e.g. Blueberry) saying they would prefer Lemon Meringue not Cherry that got the most initial votes.
In a regular pie contest, the best pie could win from 4 votes out of 10 judges. That's it. The winner doesn't have to worry about the eliminated pie, which is either the least popular or the worst pie, potentially deciding the outcome. The over 50% threshold will be difficult to achieve in an election with 4,5 candidates.
Elections are best served if people make informed decision. It shouldn't be about "everyone should vote and be heard". If you can't make an informed decision, it's better that you don't vote at all. This is REASON's position. RCV makes this difficult by incentivizing bad choices.
Do you think it's ideal for a libertarian frontrunner to lose because a democrat (or even a republican) reached out to MAGA and fringe green party types? You only say "that's not happening now", but that's a dodge. How much libertarian value should be compromised so one of their candidates can win?
You can be certain shifty alliances will be made so some people can gain an edge. Adams accused Yang of doing just that in NYC mayoral race. And of course party matters - who are you kidding? You think third party leftists have no connection or loyalty to the democrat party? RCV will incentivize frontrunners catering to radical agendas or at least throwing them a bone. Third parties remain fringe for a reason.
RCV is great if you buy into the left's obsession with "representation". But governance is about policy, you have to pick the right ones, but something that's flawed but gets the job done. I'm not interested in a system where someone like Rand Paul has to deal with antifa or far nationalists to win elections.
"The question isn’t whether RCV is fair or legitimate. It’s whether it’s a good idea in a fractured nation where low info voters already hold too much sway."
Well yes, it's an excellent idea in that circumstances for a number of reasons.
A) Party doesn't matter as much. Those who "vote blue no matter who" or "Vote Red even if he's dead" won't be able guarantee a result. People with third choices can ignore party, and the ones can find their candidate eliminate and still having to make a choice.
B) The race has to appeal to something other than hating the enemy. It doesn't matter how bad the Dems or Reps are, if there is a third option, and realistically only RCV can give that in America, you have to show your candidate is actually better.
Do you give these people multiple chances to make bad decisions? Theoretically, a more populist democrat could beat a top vote getting libertarian by appealing to the MAGA crowd. This is less “representation” of people then certain alliances winning out. It will lead to loss of liberty because candidates have to mind fringe voices."
"Theoretically, a more populist democrat could beat a top vote getting libertarian by appealing to the MAGA crowd."
Well libertarians aren't winning now. And it's far more likely that a libertarian will win by the MAGA crowd settling for a libertarian instead of a Democrat than vice versa. But either way the fact that someone can persuade a majority to vote against your candidate isn't a flaw in an electoral system. That's the point of an electoral system.
"This is less “representation” of people then certain alliances winning out."
Actually it's exactly the opposite. The major parties are the alliances that are wining out. Currently your choice is vote for one of those alliances or waste your vote. RCV lets you vote for who you really prefer, who really represents you, knowing that you can still put your second best choice down the ballot. These "alliances" have no control over where you put your lower preferences besides telling you what they want you to choose.
" It will lead to loss of liberty because candidates have to mind fringe voices."
Are you saying the mainstream is currently in favor of liberty? You got pretty much everything wrong.
B) The race has to appeal to something other than hating the enemy. It doesn’t matter how bad the Dems or Reps are, if there is a third option, and realistically only RCV can give that in America, you have to show your candidate is actually better.
This doesn’t make sense to me.
In a typical election If you hate Donald Trump but believe Clinton is just as worse, you can either go third party or not vote. Either way, your vote did not go to any of the candidates you hated. And not voting ensures none of the terrible candidates get your vote.
If you voted for Johnson and picked Trump or Clinton as second choices in RCV you’re continuing the status quo and picking the lesser of two evils. You’re choosing options you personally know to be bad because RCV allows you hedge your options.
I’m not voting for dregs like Kanye, Nick Fuentes, Jill Stein or Mcmuffin under any system. In RCV, some lunatics may very turn out to be vote for them, knowing that their “vote isn’t wasted”. Do you want this? More choices are usually good in society, but even that occurs in certain constraint. It’s why families having 8 kids and jamming the country with immigration is a bad idea.
I find it interesting there were fewer votes tallied after each round. Looks like many people only voted for one person and not two or more. Had everyone voted the full ballot, the results could have been different
It looks like ranked choice affected the outcome by not everyone understanding how the ballot works.
I wonder how many people who voted for the Democrat only voted for one candidate?
Or it could be that once the choices are narrowed down to 4 (in what seems like a superfluous pre-election/qualifier), a fair number of voters are indifferent to 2 or 3 of them. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. After all, don't we hear Libertarians say that besides Libertarians, they're all the same?
Classic ballots or ranked choice or tiddly-winks. How about for a real change we remove all mentions of parties?
I second that one.
not only that but incumbency status too!
If you don't understand why you are voting for someone by the time you close the curtain, you should not be voting.
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The heck with open primaries, they’re the worst form of state-run primaries.
Why should the state run and finance primaries at all? Let candidates and parties nominate themselves, or if they want a party endorsement seek such an endorsement at a convention or however the party chooses its candidates. Have a general-election where voters choose among all these candidates. If nobody gets a majority, maybe you could do runoffs or ranked choice or whatever.
If the Libertarians want to nominate Jones, they should be able to do so – and get on the ballot on a nondiscriminatory basis. If dissenting Libertarians want to nominate Smith, let them do so. But Demopublicans and unaffiliated shouldn’t be able to say who runs under the Libertarian or Dissident-Libertarian banner.
Then we can talk in terms of what to do in the absence of any candidate with a majority. Plurality, RCW? What?
I believe in ranked voting - if there's only one candidate for each party. Otherwise, it's no better than having a spoiler in a non-ranked voting race. Clearly - Alaska is NOT a red state, but when your choice is between a douche and a turd sandwich (Palin and the democrat), this is what you get.
Bohem - everyone can see this. For you to hold this result up as some sort of victory for ranked voting is disgusting. What you've done is either tried to convince Republicans it is not the way to go or you're rubbing this shit in non-Democrat peoples faces.
"I believe in ranked voting – if there’s only one candidate for each party. Otherwise, it’s no better than having a spoiler in a non-ranked voting race. "
No it's much better and nothing like having a spoiler in a non-ranked race. Begich didn't spoil Palin's votes and Palin didn't spoil his. Anyone who voted for either Republican could put the other R as second or even third choice. The problem is they didn't. Begich voters preferred a Democrat to Palin and Palin supporters preferred a Democrat to Begich. In a non-ranked race this would not have changed.
I don't know that a substantial number of Palin's voters preferred Peltota. They could all have put Begich second and it wouldn't have affected the results.
Whether or not the ranked-choice voting appeared to have "worked" in this case in no way implies that ranked-choice voting is fair or reliably reflects the people's will. Kenneth Arrow demonstrated in his Impossibility Theorem that no ranked-choice voting system can assure fair results. No amount of cherry-picking changes that fundamental shortcoming.
Perhaps the most essential qualities of any trusted voting system are that it is simple, transparent, and easy for everyone to calculate the winner. Ranked-choice voting has none of these qualities.
How about a runoff between the top 2 if nobody has a majority? That might work, albeit it would involve more delay than I’d like.
I think Georgia does this or something very similar, and whatever system they utilise seems to work just fine. There is no convoluted rankings to keep track of or anything like that, and with the issues digital processing has with counting in this twenty-first century, it seemingly takes time either way. The media gets more material and ad revenue when the race is too tight to elect.
Admittedly, I still don't have a full grasp of how that Alaskan system works, and if I don't get it, neither do many below average and even average voters. It is seemingly like my vote only counts, if I pick the right candidate, but only if, that candidate isn't already in first or second place. There are most definitely candidates I don't ever want to vote for at all, and ranking who I would most tolerate is not going to end in four names by a long shot. It simply does not make sense to force voters into such a scheme, and I don't care about Palin one way or the other, with a sense that she would not have been victorious through normal voting processes either.
Anyone who doesn't understand how RCV works should be back in grade school. It's not 'convoluted'. It's straightforward. We make preference lists all the time. 'If you're going to the grocery store, I'd like pastrami, or if they don't have pastrami, roast beef.' That's equivalent to RCV.
If you think that's 'convoluted', you're too dumb to vote.
^truth
I've been watching this shell-and-pea game since before looter parties began shoving it. Libertarian spoiler votes have for 50 years been levering the Kleptocracy to repeal laws and policies enacted by a century of communist, socialist and prohibitionist spoiler votes. They did that damage with, on average, 2.4% of the vote. Now that we are reversing the trend with similar vote shares, the looters are grasping at straws to foil us. These sloppy seconds voting whimsies are but another such straw.
I see no evidence we've increased our leverage by spoiling in plurality elections; just the reverse.
We make preference lists all the time. ‘If you’re going to the grocery store, I’d like pastrami, or if they don’t have pastrami, roast beef.’ That’s equivalent to RCV.
First, say "Poor, inner city kids are just as smart as white kids." without saying "Poor, inner city kids are just as smart as white kids."
It factually is more convoluted. Your analogy is flawed.
Team Pastrami: "If you’re going to the grocery store, I’d like pastrami, or if they don’t have pastrami, roast beef. Just don't get ham."
Team Ham: "I love ham but can't stand pastrami. If they don't have ham, I'll get you roast beef."
[grocery store has ham]
Boehm: See compromise works!
For those too partisan or 'dumb to vote' the rank system above can/does also work for Team Pastrami, notably if the deli/grocer is Halal or Kosher. And, full disclosure, prosciutto or GTFO!
Because that has literally no advantages over RCV. There are two cases a) One of the top two is the preferred candidate of a majority after the least popular candidates are eliminated one by one. B) Another candidate is preferred by a majority to either of the top 2. In the first instance RCV gives the same result and no delay. In the second large numbers of people are forced to vote for people who they do not prefer. The winning candidate could have as little as 33.5% initial vote and win against a candidate with as little as 33.4% initial vote.
Here's a simple example. Alice, Bob, Charlie and Dexter are running.
First round
A: 30%, B:29%, C: 25%, D: 16%
We eliminate D and his votes go 12% to C and 2% each to A and B.
So the second round looks like this.
C: 37%, A: 32%, B: 31%
Now lets suppose that the people who voted for A and B first each hate the other candidate. Only 10% of B's initial voters would put A over C and vice versa.
So the final result is
C: at least 63.1% wins and that's assuming people who put B all vote for A.
If you had an runoff election A probably would have won even though over 63% of voters prefer C. If B would have won again, most voters prefer C to B.
I have seen this analysis before, and it makes two powerful points. First that the most preferred candidate is not always immediately visible. Second the effect of a hard political divide. If the supporters of A view B supporters as evil and B supporters view A supporters as evil, we could assume that neither A nor B supporters would vote for the other. This could lead to the loss for both A and B. The process therefore encourages less of a divide.
This is the exact same pattern altruists use for "lifeboat ethics" conundrums. Instead of measuring reality, the hustle fakes reality with "three cannibals get into a lifeboat" or "twelve idiots stand on trolley tracks as if glued there" stories. Eric finds two dogfighting girl-bulliers dead on a highway and imagines some scenario that ignores female reprisal voting. Any child can see the idiots lacked the votes to win, kept fighting and were crushed by angry voters driving a spoiler vote steamroller five times the width needed to turn both fanatics into roadkill. This only proves voters were eager to beat them with a 2X4. (https://bit.ly/3QpGuKk)
The other name for ranked choice is "instant runoff" for a reason, y'know.
The author, Eric Boehm, makes the point that no voting system is perfect, each having flaws. What I see as the advantage of RCV is it loosens the party's hold on states. Political gerrymandering has been used in too many states to ensure that one party, and usually incumbents dominate. This has led to candidates on the far side, left or right, getting too much influence. I see RCV as a means for people to take back control. Mainstream moderate candidates will again have the power to win.
While it creates more work for the single election it also saves having two elections by building the primary process into the main election. And while initially more complicated it will become more familiar, like anything new.
Republican have been disadvantaged in the RCV system and have therefore criticized the system. I would expect the same criticism from Democrats were RCV initiated in a state typically controlled by Democrats.
One final thought, there were some comments that Republicans should run a single candidate. This in itself would not be enough to win. Republican need to have a candidate with broader appeal. The model of a hard core but small base, useful in the primary/main election model will not work for RVC.
What I see as the advantage of RCV is it loosens the party’s hold on states. Political gerrymandering has been used in too many states to ensure that one party, and usually incumbents dominate. This has led to candidates on the far side, left or right, getting too much influence. I see RCV as a means for people to take back control. Mainstream moderate candidates will again have the power to win.
This is like saying the solution to parties divvying up a pie in a biased manner is to use a scalpel.
Actually, yes, it does.
Because, at every point in the process, every person voting knows exactly who they are voting for. They know where their vote will go.
RCV allows votes to be diluted far into the process and allows votes to be siphoned off because a voter picked the wrong 'it will be settled long before thing point'.
Palin won the first election, but was screwed by leftist controlled RCV, and she won the second election, but, since the point of leftist controlled RCV is to keep anyone but their chosen candidates from winning, she was screwed out of the win again.
Alaska will become progressively bluer as long as they keep this system. That is it's only purpose.
If a FPTP system aligns 'popular' and 'divisive', Palin and Peltola were the two most popular and divisive candidates. If we choose an election system designed to select less divisive and more generally popular candidates, in this case, it was Begich and, more critically, the more generally popular and bipartisan or non-divisive Begich becomes without rising to the top of any given ticket, the more egregiously the system discriminates against him. See below, if he were popular among 50% of first-round Palin voters and 33% of first-round Peltola voters, he would have more total votes in the top two spots than either Palin or Peltola. But, explicitly because of RCV, his votes get divvied up between Palin and Peltola.
Ultimately, nothing prevents a system from being constructed that counts all the votes for all the candidates. Well, nothing except Boehm, et al.'s selective stupidity.
What I learned from Democrats and Republicans: Ranked Choice Voting only works when your candidate wins.
That is the size of it. All arguments are replaced by parables and Bauble stories. But whining that runoffs are _expensive_ in an effort to keep voters from casting Libertarian spoiler votes that CANNOT be ignored and ABSOLUTELY apply pressure to repeal dissolute spending, eugenic looter laws and extortionate meddling?! That's too like the kid who murdered both parents pleading for leniency as an orphan! Anything that delays a looter taking office and tantalizes the Kleptocracy into factional backstabbing to delete dumb planks is GOOD.
Have you got a case of Republicans supporting RCV and winning? How about winning without being the Condorcet winner?
Election boards have a difficult time accurately counting actual votes cast. Having them do algebra to get a final result really doesn't add a level of confidence to the final result.
This is all the more true where gubmint schools have produced graduates completely dumbfounded by long division, who imagine physics has something to do with Orwell's physical jerks.
The math is pretty straight forward, and a computer program could probably figure it out in a minute.
Much, much less than a minute and the math is easy enough agree on ahead of time, publish, and vet. Leaving boards solely (ir)responsible for their current responsibilities of vetting and counting.
To wit, RCV has repeatedly shown not only to not have any of the advertised effects with regard to moderation or candidate/party/ideological diversity, but it actually frequently chooses a less-than-optimally popular candidate in doing so.
Living in Wisconsin I cannot directly comment on how campaigning was done for the Alaskan election. There have been reports that candidates tried to tone down divisive rhetoric. That is reported here as an example.
https://www.sightline.org/2022/08/31/what-peltolas-win-can-teach-alaska-and-america/
That is reported here as an example.
Incorrect. It *may* have been reported. Literally;
The article claims "Peltola’s victory meant the least polarizing candidate actually won." in spite of the fact that the evidence of such was collected but is not being disclosed, if it was even tabulated. As indicated, Begich getting 99% of Peltola and Palin voters' second would definitively/overwhelmingly make Begich the least polarizing candidate.
Further, even with the evidence all of this abides the usual stupidity of "feels right" vs. "is actually less divisive" vs. "indirectly/directly divides or unifies people". The divisiveness of a white supremacist saying, "I don't think negroes are equal, but schools should be integrated." vs. an abolitionist saying "I don't think negroes are equal, but they have rights and they should be free to move to Equador." is hardly quantifiable.
Cells 7C and 8C are wrong by more than a rounding error. Eric should expect no less from the looter Wikipedia. Entering the numbers into a spreadsheet reveals the fudging. But for a "libertarian" writer to ignore completely that our candidate nailed 547% of the gap between the two looter factions, NECESSARILY forcing them into runoffs, is dereliction. The Grabbers Of Pussy preemptively slit their collective throat by spoiling each other! THAT demonstration of law-changing clout--not goofy election recipes--changes platforms, hence laws. Where is Eric's comparison of 3-party campaign spending per vote?
RCV is better than first-past-the-post, but only just a little. My questions have to do with the "exhausted" votes, and my money says those folks think that by only voting for 1 or 2 of the 4, they're "adding weight" to their vote(s), which isn't what happens at all. They're just refusing to indicate a 3rd or 4th choice.
In Palin/Begich/Peltola, it didn't matter, because the tally of exhausted votes would not have put Palin over the top even if they all went to her. But in previous RCV elections, the "exhausted" total has exceeded the margin of victory.
I would prefer approval voting, with a 50% victory requirement. Voters say Yes or No to ALL candidates, and highest Yes% that is over 50 wins. If nobody cracks 50% then THEY ALL GO HOME AND CANNOT RUN AGAIN. Re-do the election 6 months later with new candidates.
I know Approval Voting would result in a lot of 6-month re-dos the first couple of cycles... but I do think the parties would learn quick to avoid repulsive candidates and tack towards the middle.
I would prefer approval voting, with a 50% victory requirement. Voters say Yes or No to ALL candidates, and highest Yes% that is over 50 wins. If nobody cracks 50% then THEY ALL GO HOME AND CANNOT RUN AGAIN. Re-do the election 6 months later with new candidates.
While I like the... 'augmentations', you still haven't resolved the core issue(s). Can each voter only answer 'Yes' once or several times? If the former, then it's better, but still largely degenerate to FPTP. If the latter, how to resolve, 51% vs. 64% or, more critically 51% v. 51% v. 51%... splits?
Where's Quicktown Brix? Here's another example of BOAF SIDEZism.
Blue Team wins by split among two Red Team candidates and Red Team wins by split among two Red Team candidates: RCV works! Who actually cares if the point is about the discarded votes in the first election and the split actually hurt the Red Team in the second election, the point is I'm being impartial when I say RCV works.
OK, Boehm, here’s your retardation:
Let’s say a modest 33% of 1st round Peltola voters had Begich as their second choice and an, again modest, 50% of Palin voters had Begich as their second choice. That would put him at the top of the heap with ‘votes in the top 2’ at 138,073 votes. Well above what Peltola won with. Instead, he was eliminated because he wasn’t as popular (or divisive) as Peltola or Palin at the tip-toppiest of the ballot and the second place votes for him are, even in your analysis, uncounted and disregarded. If you really were looking for moderation, your voting method would give more weight to the more moderated votes rather than entirely and unequivocally discarding them (burying them, and pissing on their grave while shouting "RCV works!").
Further, your arrival at the conclusion “RCV Works!” by examining all the variables between a 1 Blue vs. 2 Red and 2 Red vs. 1 Blue is like declaring your Thanksigiving turkey recipe as success because nobody got punched in the face (yet).
But, being in the “I wouldn’t vote but, if I did, I’d vote Biden.” camp, you already knew this line of thinking was full of bullshit before you presented it.
The important thing is that it kept out someone that Boehm and the Establishment view as distasteful. Therfore it works.
"No election system is perfect..."?
Is govt. out of control? No. It was never in control, by its victims, the public.
We vote to be ruled by others who are given the permission to use the initiation of force, threaten, and judge themselves, their performance, their limits.
Is it any wonder they constantly expand their authority (power)? What would stop them? The public? How? Once you vote, you lose control. You forfeit your rights.
Disagree? Tell me: Who will protect you from your protectors?
You gave away your political power, your sovereignty, when you voted to let other run your life, e.g., make you obey rules (laws) you judge immoral, unjust, impractical.
What safeguards are in place? None, except non-violent boycott or violent revolt.
Do you have the courage to admit it? Or even consider it? Free yourself, or self-enslave. It's up to you.
Worked for whom? The lesser liked candidate?
One election proves nothing.
I view Ben Domenech as a more consistently libertarian voice than I do Boehm.
What happened to 2nd place votes for Begich? Take a moment and think about it.
I'll tell you what happened: THEY WERE THROWN AWAY. This is the dirty secret of Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). It's hidden by those who are running this scam by calling them "potential votes". But they are just as real and IMPORTANT as the first place votes.
There are several "ranked choice voting" systems. The mathematically best is Condorcet's Round Robin system. This is not an opinion. This is mathematically true, which makes it true everywhere in the universe for all time. Permit me to offer an example that shows IRV failing to eliminate the split vote problem and picking the wrong winner.
Assume 9 voters picking among 3 candidates - we'll call them A, B, and C. Let's first assume that only A and C are contenders and voters 1 through 4 pick A while 5 through 9 pick C. C wins 5 to 4. Now, let's assume that only B and C are facing off. This time, voters 5 through 7 pick B but voters 1 through 4 along with 8 and 9 pick C. C beats B 6 to 3. Does everyone here agree if you put all three candidates together, C should win?
If you use a Runoff system, split vote IS NOT SOLVED. Runoff is really just iterated plurality voting. In a conventional runoff, using the voters above, A gets 4 votes, B gets 3 votes, and C gets 2 votes. C is eliminated! We know that's wrong. IRV doesn't help in finding the true winner. The rankings for the same voters (which IRV lets them express) are: voters 1 through 4 have A first, C second; voters 5 through 7 have B first, C second; voters 8 and 9 have C first, B second. IRV eliminates C because of only having 2 FIRST PLACE VOTES. Where did all those 2nd place votes for C go?? THEY WERE THROWN AWAY. Only the 2nd choice of voters 8 and 9 are kept and distributed to B - this makes B the winner over A by 5 to 4.
Using Condorcet's system, which counts all the votes, A loses to B by 4 to 5 and loses to C by 5 to 4 as well. Note that this reproduces the result when ONLY A and C are going head-to-head. As for B, we know that B defeats A by 5 to 4 but, loses to C by 3 to 6. Because every vote is counted we eliminate the split vote effects that IRV DOES NOT SOLVE.
Now, I just showed you that IRV does NOT work as it's proponents claim. All I needed to do was show you ONE instance where IRV doesn't work. This makes claims for IRV finding the majority winner FALSE. Remember, this is mathematics - true everywhere in the universe for all time.
Throwing votes away means NOT finding the true winner and this will happen frequently. Also, throwing votes away is illegal in most states and almost certainly violates established constitutional law along with arguably violating Section 2 of the 14th Amendment.
Why is no one making the above arguments? I really don't know why the FairVote organization has gotten away with 30 years of lies and arguably violating its 501c3 status. I don't know why opponents of IRV have not done just a little bit of study in Social Choice Theory (Condorcet's creation) - it's a mystery to me.
Condorcet's system is the ONLY ranked system that will be able to break down the two party system. Yes, party-list proportional representation will do that but it does that by creating multi-party instability and can put extremist lunatics into the legislative body (Italian Fascists and German Nazis are a good historical example) from which they can gain control. Condorcet is a MAJORITARIAN system that allow the majority to prevail no matter how many candidates are on the ballot.
There are so other very nasty features of IRV, such as non-monotonicity. For a complete treatment of the subject, see my video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btDyhNiTfeM
Reason wants us to donate for this.