Climate Reparations and the Problem of Pervasive Corruption
At COP27, poor countries demand climate change "loss and damage" funding from rich countries.

Sharm-el-Sheikh, Egypt—COP27 is all about the money. It has always been thus at the annual Conferences of the Parties (COP) of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. Way back in 2007, at COP13 in Bali, activists argued that rich countries must hand over $600 billion annually to help poor countries develop economically and adapt to man-made climate change. Even as COP15 in Copenhagen collapsed in 2009, rich countries reluctantly promised to "mobilize" $100 billion annually for poor countries by 2020. That goal is now expected to be reached next year, three years late.
Initially, the goal was to help poor countries become more resilient. The funding was aimed at mitigating and adapting to climate change by adopting low-carbon energy generation technologies and by building infrastructure strong enough to withstand dangerous weather.
But at COP19, held in Warsaw in 2013, the demands moved beyond mere mitigation and adaptation financing to what amounts to climate change reparations. Poor countries wanted the United Nations (U.N.) to create a new bureaucratic mechanism to collect and distribute billions, to compensate them for "loss and damage" from climate change. Not surprisingly, the rich countries did not like the idea of an international agency empowered to make them legally liable for weather damage around the world.
Nevertheless, the concept of "loss and damage" climate reparations was officially incorporated into the Paris Climate Change Agreement adopted in 2015. Recognizing that such U.N. agreements tend to metastasize into international shakedown bureaucracies, rich countries initially resisted the provision. But the poor countries swore that the loss and damage section did not impose liability on rich countries.
Well, that was Paris then. This is Egypt now.
At COP27, the "G77" bloc—130 poorer countries, led by Pakistan—got discussion of loss and damage on this year's agenda. They ultimately aim at the creation of a dedicated Loss and Damage Finance Facility under the auspices of the U.N.
"It's a well-known fact that the United States and many other countries will not establish…some sort of legal structure that is tied to compensation or liability. That's just not happening," said U.S. Climate Change Special Envoy John Kerry at a press conference on Saturday.
So how much money is at stake? Initial estimates of tens of billions annually have now ballooned to new estimates of trillions per year by 2030. Poor countries correctly argue that most of the extra carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that is warming the planet derives from fossil fuels burned by rich countries as they grew wealthier over the past two centuries. And poor people living in poor countries are certainly more vulnerable to the weather extremes exacerbated by climate change. "The foisting of some cost onto an unwilling third party—what is known as a 'negative externality'—has long been a concern of policymakers and economists, and climate change will certainly have future costs," observes the economist David Levine in the Spring 2022 issue of Regulation. As a general principle of law and morality, if someone imposes a harm involuntarily on another person, they should compensate the injured party for it.
But there's a huge problem here. The proposed system would channel funds from rich-country taxpayers to poor-country governments. And these governments suffer from pervasive corruption.
In its latest analysis, Transparency International reports that the average corruption perception score index for sub-Saharan countries is 33 out of a possible score of 100. G77 leader Pakistan scores 28. One reason people living in poor countries remain especially vulnerable to climate change is because government thievery and incompetence have held back the economic growth that would enable them to create the wealth with which to defend themselves. Even if rich countries were willing to pony up tens of billions in climate reparations, very little of the money would likely reach the citizens who are suffering the brunt of weather disasters.
Note: I will be reporting from COP27 for the rest of this week.
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No to 'reparations' of any kind.
Just call it what it is - 'theft'.
This nonsense really takes the cake, doesn't even mention reparations.
To even quote that nonsense with a straight face shreds your credibility, Ron. You used to at least have credibility in other fields, but echoing this kind of press release pablum is beyond the pale.
Right- since Kyoto it has been painfully clear that the entire Climate Change regime is about redistribution of wealth. In negotiations for Kyoto, Russia was lured to sign on when they were granted the right to recognize the reforestation of their country in carbon credits. That meant they could counter their industrial development with carbon credits that they essentially printed by letting unused soviet-era installations go back to nature.
Meanwhile the US was explicitly denied the ability to recognize our reforestation in carbon credits. If we wanted to emit carbon, we would need to buy credits from the third world, generally by paying third world countries not to develop their own energy infrastructure.
This was in the mid 90s. Nothing has changed. It continues to be a mechanism to take from productive countries and redistribute that wealth to the crony, corrupt governments of the developing world.
"This was in the mid 90s. Nothing has changed. It continues to be a mechanism to take from productive countries and redistribute that wealth to the crony, corrupt governments of the developing world."
I thought that carbon credits were adopted over carbon taxes at the insistence of the US, over the objections of Europe and much of the rest of the world. You seem to be suggesting the opposite.
He’s suggesting that such mechanisms do no good.
He's says the programs are about redistributing wealth and that the poorer nations are the beneficiaries. That would be true with the carbon tax which the US vetoed. Instead we have carbon credits which can be more easily gamed and profitable for the wealthy.
So no good either way.
Carbon credits were always something of a scam, and may well do nothing to reduce carbon emissions. In some cases they increase them. That's the gaming of the system part.
It’s the democrat way.
Do you not understand the difference between domestic policymakers and foreign ones?
Some are domestic and others are foreign?
Bailey lost his credibility long ago. Anybody that still gave him some has no excuse to continue since at least 2020.
I used to believe his non-climate non-COVID stuff. But the rot is too deep now.
MOAR TESTING NEEDED !
Ron has credibility left?
Maybe he purchased some from Malaysia?
So unfair. Though there were 400 private jets parked for this conference many of the leaders of those G77 countries were forced to travel by chartered jets with no national branding.
They deserve reparations for the shame heaped on them, and when reparations come conference organisers will need to build new airfields to park all the new private jets.
If this is going to mutate into a reparations regime, then screw Paris! Every future Reparations Summit should be held at Versailles!
#GreatHistoricalTrackRecordThere
AGW is bullshit. It exists to serve as a delivery system for more global Marxism.
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Climate change has always been about the money. The reveal here is that supporters are resistant to this extortion scheme, but that is because they want the money to fund organizations which employ people like themselves rather than others just like them in other countries. Priorities you know.
Climate change summits are probably one the biggest single event contributors to CO2. In one day they produce as much as I would in 1000 lifetimes. Fucking hypocrites should do their shit via zoom.
Pakistan had a flood around 1950 - before all the talk of climate change - that killed more people than the recent flood. Back then Pakistan had about 35% forest, now reduced to 5%. Any Californian will tell you ridding the mountains of forest will result in later flooding.
Much of what is described as damage due to global warming is the result of bad land management and population growth.
So, "climate change aka global warming" is really just another socialist money redistribution ponzi scheme. Shocking!
Prove it.
Exactly. But they never will. Not only because they can't, but because they don't have to.
You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
Ron, you don’t even know your own propaganda. Two centuries is bullshit. Temperatures were falling before 1970 or 1980, and the climate alarmunism was all about the coming ice age.
Two centuries my ass.
And suddenly China and India’s massive coal burning does not contribute to CO2 levels?
And no mention of all the benefits from three centuries of capitalism lifting those same billions out of poverty? Fake costs and ignored benefits, what a combination.
Jeez.
Yeah, all of the growth in CO2 emissions is coming from the "developing world" and isn't about to slow down. The focus on mature industrial economies is foolish if the goal is really to reduce emissions.
Also, if you claim CO2 is going to cause disaster and aren't promoting lots more nuclear power, you cannot be taken seriously.
Rush Limbaugh said environmentalists are like watermelons. Green on the outside, red in the middle. Everything we do as humans uses energy. Controlling energy means controlling everything humans do. It's backdoor central planning.
"Controlling energy means controlling everything humans do."
Isn't burning fossil fuels to power an internal combustion engine a way of controlling energy?
Just as hitting the target is gun control.
No, banning fossil fuels and access to them THE way of controlling energy.
Using energy to perform a task is controlling energy.
"banning fossil fuels and access to them "
Nobody is talking about banning fossil fuels. They will go on existing, have no fear. It's the burning of them where the problem comes in, CO2 and all.
“I guarantee you we are going to end fossil fuels “.
Joe Biden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ7MMsheHzQ
I wouldn't worry too much. We haven't ended whales yet after a century of banning the use of whale oil. Fossil fuels will always exist. Don't let your president tell you different.
"Nobody is talking about banning fossil fuels."
-mtrueman
Fossil fuels are here to stay. And have no fear, they will continue to be used for a host of purposes. It's the burning of them that the trouble because of the green house gases emitted as a necessary part of the process. You simply cannot burn them without producing CO2.
“Nobody is talking about banning fossil fuels.”
-mtrueman
Or we could just get rid of your kind and go back to sane energy policies that won’t destroy us. We need oil and gas. We don’t need democrats.
Hey, guess what ended whale hunting on a global scale? Hint: it was not some purple-haired idiot gluing itself to a public place.
Actually there is whale hunting on a global scale. The Japanese send boats all the way down to the Antarctic to engage in, I shit you not, 'scientific whaling.' They've been able to ascertain, over the decades, that Minke whale eat krill, plankton, and little else.
oof that gaslighting got refuted pretty quick
When it’s cold and, people need heat to survive, this is all moot.
Have you tried standing beside yourself at a cocktail party or anti-cliche' rally?
"Also, if you claim CO2 is going to cause disaster and aren’t promoting lots more nuclear power,"
Promoting nuclear power is easy and doesn't cost any money. Providing the world with electricity from nuclear power is not easy and costs a lot of money. China, the nation with the world's most active nuclear program, gets around 5% of its electricity from nuclear, and builds a few reactors every year. They are also building a few dozen reactors in other countries where they seek to gain influence, a drop in the electrical bucket, so to speak.
… is not easy and costs a lot of money.
Have you seen the price tag on a windmill?
Have you seen the price tag on wind? Or a tank of gasoline?
Idiot. Have you compared the price of wind to an outcrop of coal on the side of a hill? And have you compared the price of a kWh based on either one, delivered to a house 24/7 averaged over a complete year?
It was a trick question. Wind is free. You can thank mother nature, the commie bitch.
With a need for on demand energy --- wind is abysmal at providing it.
"wind is abysmal at providing it."
What do you expect for nothing? We want an energy source that's highly dense, readily available 24 hours a day, doesn't pollute, doesn't cost money, needs no mining, infrastructure or regulation, but it doesn't exist. Anything we use will have some drawbacks, and that includes wind. There are some solid state wind mills under development without moving parts that look promising, but as it stands now, wind has drawbacks like an irritating hum, a psychologically damaging flicker, difficult and expensive maintenance for the blades, and bird strikes. Wind is also intermittent, as you imply, but this may be addressed by a globe spanning network of high voltage direct current transmission lines so that we can take advantage of the wind blowing and the sun shining on the opposite side of the planet, and vice versa, but this is, while technically feasible given the current state of technology, extremely expensive, requires global cooperation of an unprecedented intensity, and may have other surprise difficulties in store for us.
Amd the cost of harnessing wind is horrendous.
When people are talking about sending trillions to corrupt third world regimes, spending billions on nuclear doesn't seem so expensive anymore.
France generates like 70% of their electricity with nuclear. It can be done.
"spending billions on nuclear doesn’t seem so expensive anymore."
Yes, but billions aren't enough. It's a drop in the bucket. Zimbabwe's per capita energy consumption is about a 30th of that of the US. Q: How many nuclear reactors need to be built to get them up to par? A: A lot.
Q: How many nuclear reactors need to be built to get them up to par? A: You have no idea.
I have an idea. An awful lot. More than 10 times the number of nuclear power plants built in the US from 1950 to 2000.
"An awful lot." = "You have no idea."
“ More than 10 times the number of nuclear power plants built in the US from 1950 to 2000.”
Ok. What’s that number then?
Isn't that your first step? Nuclear power is your solution. I prefer controlled nuclear fusion. Fuel is unlimited, no toxic waste and weapons proliferation doesn't seem to be a risk. Of course it's centralized, and government controlled, and any facility is likely to be ringed with various uniformed thugs with guns and knives. So there are drawbacks.
I'd love nuclear fusion too.
However, it does not exist. Well, outside of the sun,
Controlled nuclear fusion doesn't exist. But they're working on it. I was surprised to learn that there was a fair amount of private investment money going into research and development, so fusion is more than just another government boondoggle.
Hmm... 92 commercial reactors in the US today. None of them built before 1950. Some were built after 2000 but that number is more than off by the number of plants closed. Times 10 and round down to call it an even 900.
France runs pretty much its entire industrialized economy on 56 nuclear plants. Getting Zimbabwe up to par on a per-capita basis would require 13. (Zimbabwe's population is less than a quarter of France's.)
It's been a long time since first-grade math but I'm pretty sure that 13 is not greater than 900. And in context, 13 is not "an awful lot".
"France runs pretty much its entire industrialized economy on 56 nuclear plants."
You've heard of Renault, Peugeot and let's not forget the Citroen. They are cars and trucks. They burn fossil fuels. In France. A lot.
Which is completely irrelevant to your original question.
"Which is completely irrelevant to your original question."
You can't be this obtuse. French cars need energy to move about. That energy comes from burning fossil fuels, not France's nuclear power stations.
France has 56 working nuclear plants. And if some standardized, mass-produceable design went into production, costs would drop a lot.
" And if some standardized, mass-produceable design went into production, costs would drop a lot."
Would the price of fuel drop? My guess it would rise and turn producing areas of uranium into perennial conflict zones like the middle east and its oil.
China is seriously underdeveloped.
"And suddenly China and India’s massive coal burning does not contribute to CO2 levels?"
The argument is that massive coal burning contributes to a nation's wealth, and wealthy nations are not only wealthier, but cleaner than poorer nations.
The argument is that massive coal burning contributes to a nation’s wealth, and wealthy nations are not only wealthier, but cleaner than poorer nations.
Funny - I've been told, by you, that this is an oil company lie.
If you didn't believe me, then what's the fuss? Does China's and India's coal burning make them a cleaner and wealthier place or not?
If you didn’t believe me, then what’s the fuss?
I’m not the one running up and down the thread tossing fallacies at people. Just pointing out your dishonesty and inconsistency, like I did above.
"Just pointing out your dishonesty and inconsistency, "
You seem to be claiming that China's and India's burning of coal won't make them wealthier and cleaner. Or maybe the opposite. I see inconsistency here.
I didn't say anything about India or China. I merely pointed out that in response to alphabet guy you made an argument that you have before claimed is a lie.
So were you lying then, or are you lying now?
"I didn’t say anything about India or China. "
Quoting the comment you made to which I responded.
"And suddenly China and India’s massive coal burning does not contribute to CO2 levels?"
You see, I'm not lying, after all. Not only are you inconsistent, you are confused and forgetful as well. Maybe you should run for office.
One question about COP27: how often do they serve watermelon?
Every time.
Wouldn't that be cannibalism?
Watermelons are served three times a day.
Is that a racist joke?
Yep. And a damn good one!
Foreign aid: Taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries.
Pretty much nails it, I think.
That's usually attributed to Ron Paul.
I don't care if it's attributed to the Easter Bunny. It's still true.
I don't care if it's quoted by sarcasmic, it still deserves attributation.
Ahh, your angry because I didn't put a cite on there? Keep getting mad then. Because I'm not obligated to attribute everything I type.
But you have obligated yourself to answer all posts mentioning you. It's fun making you waste your valuable commenting resources on worthless replies.
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"You're" - "you are", sarc, not "your".
Jesus you’re so fucking broken.
The poor are certainly more vulnerable to weather but there are not "weather extremes exacerbated by climate change". The claims of "weather extremes" have been thoroughly and definitively debunked. This is a shakedown and the corruption is becoming increasingly obvious.
"The claims of “weather extremes” have been thoroughly and definitively debunked"
Still waiting for the "worstest hurricane season ever!" that was promised this year, with the climate induced "increasing superstorms! (TM)".
Im guessing two run of the mill hurricanes doesnt count as 'worstest ever' as they promised
Poor countries correctly argue that most of the extra carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that is warming the planet derives from fossil fuels burned by rich countries as they grew wealthier over the past two centuries.
'Correctly argue' huh? Pardon me while I laugh my ass off with that little gem. It's literally a shakedown based on junk science and people act like this makes sense despite the fact it's a near certainty any money that gets funneled to these jokers will go straight into their politicians pockets to be spent on ever more impressive yachts.
And notably while Bailey does come out and point this fact out, somehow he can't bring himself to admit that the junk science they use as a basis for their claims is...junk science. The 'science' exists for the shakedown specifically and for no other purpose.
The sadder part is that these arguments are made on a reportedly libertarian site.
Banana republics redue.
Who would have thought a bunch of socialists all about govt control and money redistribution have landed on...more govt control and money distribution
Never change socialists, never change
Not surprisingly, the rich countries did not like the idea of an international agency empowered to make them legally liable for weather damage around the world.
Wouldn't that force countries to reverse themselves and claim that weather isn't climate?
Weather is climate whenever it causes billable damage.
Reparations are paid by countries that were conquered or forced to surrender in a war. What war did we lose?
Anyone who suggests you pay reparations is an enemy. Any who suggests your country pay reparations is an enemy of your country. "Maybe we should declare war instead" is an appropriate response.
Does anyone remember The Mouse That Roared?
No
Pretty funny movie.
"We'll declare war on Monday, surrender on Tuesday, and by Friday we'll all be rich!"
I played the US President in high school
"It's a well-known fact that the United States and many other countries will not establish…some sort of legal structure that is tied to compensation or liability. That's just not happening," said U.S. Climate Change Special Envoy John Kerry"
Really? I bet the new Senator from Pennsylvania would be open to it. Give it time (another couple of elections) and the American voter will be quite on board with it.
But budgets and fiscal reality won't.
Doesn't matter how much they wish for, it is literally impossible to supply it. Even trying to do so will hit the brick wall of taxpayers with limited wallets, no matter how much they brainwash said taxpayers into voting for it.
at least so far, this has also hampered the GND.
Because for spending that astronomical, they would have to admit it would mean a middle class tax increase*.
And while these people are crazy activists, they are currently always being crazy activists with other’s money. Its always “just tax the rich”. Well the pot of money in “the rich” is getting smaller, and Joe Cuck in the “Im with her!” shirt isnt going to want to pony up for the made up climate emergency
"Joe Cuck in the “Im with her!” shirt isnt going to want to pony up for the made up climate emergency"
He already is, they just don't call it a tax.
We're in the blatant looting stage of collapse.
But budgets and fiscal reality won’t.
Like those things stopped anything.
Show one example of when fiscal reality was not actually reality.
Have you seen the federal budget?
no matter how much they brainwash said taxpayers into voting for it.
Are you sure? Not even for a government handout?
No, fiscal reality is reality.
Only capitalism will solve the AGW problem. Make it cheaper to use renewable energy than it is to use fossil fuels.
How do we “make it cheaper”?
Mandate it. Fucking duh.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure "I don't care how! Just do it!" was a line from a Disney villain.
Innovation, loosen up regs on nuclear, etc.
Really, you had to ask that?
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a TDSD-addled scumbag, a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Not to mention that so far there’s really not much realized damage that’s tied to climate change. Are we paying reparations in advance for stuff that might happen 50 years from now?
Reparations are free money that corrupt governments in developing nations will use to enrich cronies while ignore the people they are supposed to help.
Disagree. Every earthquake, hurricane, tsunami, forest fire, lightning strike, snowstorm and fucking solar eclipses in the the last 20 years has been caused by climate change.
Don't leave out heart disease...
there was a non-zero number of articles about how bad COVID was being connected to climate change, and about how climate change was going to bring us "worse pandemics" just like it makes everything else worse.
Its a religion. Climate change = sin. Gaia = god. Once you view it for what it is, makes total sense
Where I live the climate changes four times a year! As if that isn’t bad enough, my current models predict a precipitous warming trend between now and June of next year!!!!
"...such U.N. agreements tend to metastasize"
I always thought the UN was a [primary] cancer.
Like slavery reparations, climate change reparations are a money shakedown by left wing redistributionists.
During this century, US carbon emissions declined by 20%, while China’s emissions have increased by 300% (and they’ll likely double this decade).
Seems like the Chinese will control the world before they begin to reduce their carbon emissions, and the Chinese Communists are all laughing at us for enabling them to take over the world economically and militarily.
"Poor countries wanted the United Nations (U.N.) to create a new bureaucratic mechanism to collect and distribute billions, to compensate them for "loss and damage" from climate change."
They can't just up and take it, so working very very hard on talking you into it. Like a beggar on the street, via the cancer known as UN.
Get your reparations from China. Just saying. They do the most polluting, have the most population, and keep claiming their commie system has given them all the wealth.
They're #1 among the relatively few countries which are responsible for the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, which somehow means Americans get paper straws now?
To be fair (unfair?), the US exports a lot of its waste to China for toxic "recycling". I used to work next to a place on San Francisco Bay that would scrap cars, computers, all the old junk, shred it, and load it on huge cargo ships and ship it out to China for smelting down. Very bad for the environment, but it removes the pollution from our shores and exports it to China. Plus they get to keep the cadmium and all the other heavy metals.
They used to, they stopped doing that a few years ago if memory serves.
Not only the most today (as in, they burn more coal than every other country combined, and have since ~2012), but I'm pretty sure their total coal burn across all years exceeds the US's total coal burn. (It's hard to find comparable data, so I can't be sure).
"Poor countries wanted the United Nations (U.N.) to create a new bureaucratic mechanism to collect and distribute billions, to compensate them for "loss and damage" from climate change. Not surprisingly, the rich countries did not like the idea of an international agency empowered to make them legally liable for weather damage around the world."
Does this mean that "first world" nations and corporations can bill them for their part of cost of developing technology, covering everything from cell phones, modern medicines, satellites, tsunami warning systems, etc., which directly make their lives better? Note, I am fully supportive of private investments in these nations, and not opposed to some governmental investment, but to claim that these poorer nations do not benefit directly, and indirectly, from the wealth and technology of richer nations is ludicrous.
It's never enough. They want more. Always more.
"Does this mean that “first world” nations and corporations can bill them for their part of cost of developing technology"
If you want to get a computer in a poor nation, you have to pay for it. You have to pay for food, clothes, medicine, housing, etc just like people in wealthier nations do.
I am aware of that. But the fact that it took the investments of wealthier countries (or companies in those nations) to bring those items to market, and a free-market to get the price down to where someone could actually afford them.
Sort of like we see in in electric vehicle market -- initially only for the very wealthy, but more and more, within reach of many more folks. And that mirrors the history of the automobile industry as a whole. It was around for quite a few years before Henry Ford made an "affordable" Model T that actual, real people, could afford.
"But the fact that it took the investments of wealthier countries (or companies in those nations) to bring those items to market, and a free-market to get the price down to where someone could actually afford them. "
You still have to pay for these products if you live in a poorer country, as you know. Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.
"Sort of like we see in in electric vehicle market — initially only for the very wealthy, but more and more, within reach of many more folks. "
China is where most electric vehicles are produced and they are reasonably priced, within the budget of the less than wealthy. Less than $US 1000, 3000 if you want it delivered to your house in the US.
https://insideevs.com/news/427175/cheapest-electric-car-china-930-us/
China is where most electric vehicles are produced and they are reasonably priced, within the budget of the less than wealthy.
And did they innovate that technology themselves?
One you realize the answer is "no," you'll have to admit that you actually did get JG's point.
China doesn't innovate. They copy. Same with any self respecting developing nation.
"you’ll have to admit that you actually did get JG’s point."
Honestly I'm not sure what it is. That people who buy products in poorer countries should pay more than people from countries where the technology was developed? Seems half baked at best. Maybe quarter baked.
I think the point is that they're benefiting from the carbon pollution of western countries in the form of technologies that wouldn't even exist without it, and at relatively affordable prices to boot. As such, they're already getting their reparations in goods and technology.
"As such, they’re already getting their reparations in goods and technology."
I see your point. But they could also get their reparations in the form of family size bags of M&Ms, subscriptions to the world's best porn sites, poker chips for Las Vegas casinos, any number of other ways. The point surely is to mitigate CO2 emissions, and all these forms of reparations, including wide spread availability of computers and other such gear, fail in that department.
I am no fan of the idea of reparations, they strike me as eminently gameable, not unlike carbon credits and many of the other solutions bruited about. But I think the goal of getting all countries to replace burning fossil fuels with other ways is worthy. It seems we're not ready to think about it seriously though.
But they could also get their reparations in the form of family size bags of M&Ms, subscriptions to the world’s best porn sites, poker chips for Las Vegas casinos, any number of other ways. The point surely is to mitigate CO2 emissions, and all these forms of reparations, including wide spread availability of computers and other such gear, fail in that department.
Weird. That's exactly the point Jefferson's Ghost was making.
How is it weird? I'm no fan of this idea of reparations. Neither is the Ghost. The problem, on reflection, arose here: (a quote from the Ghost)
"but to claim that these poorer nations do not benefit directly, and indirectly, from the wealth and technology of richer nations is ludicrous."
Whether poorer nations benefit from technology originating in the richer nations is irrelevant. The question that remains unanswered and unaddressed is how the rich can help the poor to wean themselves off fossil fuels.
Honestly I’m not sure what it is.
No, you're pretending you don't know. It's a thing you do.
His point is:
"China doesn’t innovate. They copy. Same with any self respecting developing nation."
Now extrapolate that out to what he said in the first post. Or reply with glib sophistry - either way.
"No, you’re pretending you don’t know. It’s a thing you do."
I wasn't sure. Squirrelfold stepped in and spelled it out clearly for me. Thank you Squirrelfold for your time and patience.
"Now extrapolate that out to what he said in the first post."
Why don't you simply say what you want to say and we can avoid this song and dance.
Why don’t you simply say what you want to say and we can avoid this song and dance.
Want to stop the song and dance? Stop singing and dancing.
"That people who buy products in poorer countries should pay more than people from countries where the technology was developed? Seems half baked at best. Maybe quarter baked."
Not at all. Just as I was, for instance, eventually the "beneficiary" of the University of Nevada at Reno, who purchased the IBM 9500 (or whatever it was called), which cost around $45,000, in the 1980's, but eventually led directly to what I am typing on: a $300 laptop many times more powerful than that old IBM. Without that old IBM, and other computers like it, my laptop wouldn't even exist.
No, I am not proposing we "bill poor countries." That's laughable. But one must consider both sides of the equation when tallying costs and benefits. For instance, the availability, at reasonable costs, of cell phones, say, in some Pacific Rim nations, obviates the need for thousands of miles of electrical lines and poles just to to talk to someone. Cell towers are less expensive than poles and lines.
" But one must consider both sides of the equation when tallying costs and benefits."
What you say may be true, but consider this: growing up, my house had one telephone, a solid sturdy thing on a party line, and there were telephone lines and poles and all the rest. They all are still there, as far as I know, though the party line aspect was discontinued some time ago. For underdeveloped places like Africa, I wouldn't advise taking the same route. Go straight from nothing to fiber optics, leap frogging decades of slow and continuous development. Cell phones are notoriously cheaply made, short lived with planned obsolescence baked in. Making them requires all manner of rare and toxic minerals and if that's not enough, they cause cancer. On balance, there are certainly better and cheaper ways to mitigate climate change. One of my favorites is educating young girls in literacy and numeracy. It's low tech, no western intervention of a technical nature is required, minimal investment required, and has all sorts of knock on beneficial effects.
"For underdeveloped places like Africa, I wouldn’t advise taking the same route. Go straight from nothing to fiber optics..."
This is exactly my point. There is no reason one can't go from wood and coal burning directly to nuclear energy, as a for instance. Making it happen, of course, is a little more complicated: there is still, of course, infrastructure needed that would have to be developed.
Define how the #2 economy on Earth, well according to their numbers, is "developing".
Go to Yunnan or Qinghai, and see for yourself. There are lots of villages in China without access to roads or electricity, where a family share a single pair of trousers. Underdeveloped, in other words. Yunnan and Qinghai are probably my favorite parts of China. I avoid the cities on the coast which are developed, but too noisy, dirty, crowded and expensive for my taste. Yunnan is sub tropical but has a high elevation. It has a pleasant climate all year round. It's also got the most variety of minority peoples, animal and plant life. Qinghai is further north, nestled between Tibet and the Uighur areas, more austere than Yunnan, but a great place for bird watching (and listening).
A bigger bunch of BS I've never seen. I don't owe anyone for any climate nonsense. F'n greedy bastards can go jump in the lake.
A shitload of money from rich countries will go into the pockets of corrupt governments, or to NGOs who are actually doing very little to fix the climate problem, but get big salaries for programs like teaching kids in Uganda the joys of being genderqueer
A shitload of money from rich countries will go into the pockets of corrupt governments, or to NGOs who are actually doing very little to fix the climate problem
Which will just show the need for further "action."
It's not just corruption. It is an intergenerational issue and there doesn't seem to be a way to deal with that on any issue
Good point. When will the boomers reimburse their grandchildren for sticking them with 31 trillion in debt?
Just put in on their tab.
Cut Ron some slack— he missed the first week trying to convert his Ecoscam royalties into CO2 Offset Reparations for his plane ticket.
https://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/2022/10/cop-27-carbon-negative-race-is-on.html
I hope he stocks up on Mentholated Camels to smuggle home to his beleaguered colleagues at Reason HQ in LA.
Does Sri Lanka get double reparations? One for being a developing country and one for following the WEF's climate guidelines to starvation?
To be paid to whom? Aren't we all in this together? Aren't the people most affected the wealthy people living on the coasts?
To be paid by whom? Who is going to collect from China?
To be paid for what? Warm weather is better for agriculture and more amenable to human life. Ice ages, mini ice ages, and years following major volcanic eruptions with the associated global cooling have been far worse for humanity than warming periods.
Yeah, but people who live in coastal swamps might have to move and that's apparently the worst thing in the world.
"To be paid to whom?"
I think this is the wrong question. The right one is how we get to produce enough energy to run civilization without burning fossil fuels. If you take the climate change issue seriously, that seems to me to be the nub of the matter. Once we have an answer to that, then we can talk about money. We have to know what we're buying before we talk about who we're paying.
If you take the climate change issue seriously, that seems to me to be the nub of the matter.
If you refuse to be skeptical of the political narrative that fossil fuels are primarily to blame.
If you came to this issue from an interest in the actual science (I know, what rubes actually look at that stuff anymore!) your political narratives smell of exactly what they are.
"If you refuse to be skeptical of the political narrative that fossil fuels are primarily to blame."
It's obviously a political problem, requiring global cooperation to reach a solution. It's also a scientific problem, what with energy, chemicals and what not, a engineering problem (windmills), an agricultural problem (food and stuff) and a climate problem.
I sense you shy away from addressing the issue because it has a political dimension, ie how wealth and resources are distributed around the planet. I urge you to man up, gird your loins and take the bull by the horns, and face the issue, politics and all. Anything purporting to be a solution that doesn't address politics, is not a solution. Sooner you accept that the better.
It’s obviously a political problem
Which responds in no way to what I actually said. Pass a Turing test for me and summarize what I actually did say. It's still written right there, so you can cheat, even.
Politics is about wealth and resources and how we distribute it. The climate change issue has a political dimension to any solution. This is because any solution will require cooperation on a global scale unprecedented in human history. Think of the difficulty involved as everyone will be called upon to sacrifice something precious to them!
The cause of climate change seems simple in contrast. The heat trapping character of green house gases have been understood since the days of Charles Darwin. Rising CO2 and temperatures have been observed and measured repeatedly. What else do you expect from science?
You seem to have unreasonable expectations about politics and science.
"It’s obviously a political problem". The political problem is the con men attempting to get something for nothing through the power of government.
If you are serious about a solution, there will be sacrifices. No such thing as a free lunch. Something for nothing only happens in fairy tales.
Leftard-ideology..
Has and will always be about using Gov-GUNS to ‘take’ what they don’t want to *EARN*. For F’Sakes; It’s been advertised as exactly that from the beginning. STEAL from those ‘icky rich’ people and give it to LAZY me….
Just scratch out the principles of JUSTICE and LIBERTY. No need to ask if wealth has been *EARNED*... Just STEAL!
And the wealth and prosperity will follow that of gang-land politics. There will be none. There will be violence. There will be in-justice and their won’t be any Liberty or prosperity.
Because GUNS don’t make resources………….
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Well, that was Paris then. This is Egypt now.
Next stop: Morocco—and remember, whatever happens there…
#We’llAlwaysHaveParis
(That and whatever the hell was in the new Warsaw Pact)
More Grift from the biggest Grift in the history of the world
how about NO. i'm not responsible for the weather in egypt.
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