'Election Fraud' Can Become Our Awful New Hyperbole
If we go through one election cycle after another and every loser unjustifiably cries fraud, eventually the claim will cease to impress.

Here's a scenario for election theft allegations that might pass for optimistic in a political environment as dysfunctional as our own: A few more years of this onslaught of bipartisan and demonstrably groundless accusations and the charge might cease to be a serious thing.
Crying "theft" might lose its power to inspire legislative agendas or Capitol riots and pass into the realm of metaphor. It might become our awful new hyperbole, a way to express intense frustration with electoral outcomes without making any substantive claim about actual voting tallies or practices. It could be a successor, perhaps, to our perennial (and perennially empty) threats to move to Canada, or an analogue to Iran's "death to America" chant, which sounds pretty grim to American ears but, in Iran, instead lands as a hyperbolic policy critique.
It wouldn't be difficult to hit a transformative point of allegation saturation, because to hear the most frenetic voices in American politics tell it, our elections of late are stolen more often than not.
"Right-wing extremists already have a plan to literally steal the next presidential election," Hillary Clinton claimed late last month. It was an update to allegations she's long made about her loss to former President Donald Trump in 2016, a failure she has attributed to everything from "voter suppression and voter purging to hacking to the false stories," to insisting Trump himself knew "he [was] an illegitimate president."
Clinton is far from alone among Democrats in making these charges about 2016 and subsequent elections. Former President Jimmy Carter has said a full investigation of Russian election meddling "would show that Trump didn't actually win the election in 2016." Lawmakers including Sen. Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.), the late Rep. John Lewis, and Rep. Maxine Waters (D–Calif.) have similarly questioned the legitimacy of Trump's 2016 win, as have large swathes of Democratic voters in multiple polls.
Georgia's Stacey Abrams has denied her own gubernatorial loss in 2018, insisting that "despite the final tally and the inauguration and the situation we find ourselves in," she "won." A big part of President Joe Biden's pitch for Democrats in this year's midterms is that, if they win, they'll "pass election reform and make sure no one" — i.e., Trump and other Republicans — "ever has the opportunity to steal an election again."
And as for the GOP, well, it would be easier to enumerate Republicans who don't cast aspersions on American elections than to list the ones who do. Per counts from CBS and The Washington Post, most of the Republicans running for congressional office this cycle are election deniers. There is likely at least one on your local ballot.
Indeed, rejecting the outcome of the 2020 presidential race in particular has become a key signifier of the New Right orthodoxy. It's a favorite theme for Trump himself, of course, and "stop the steal" has become as standard a GOP slogan as "make America great again." Six in 10 Republicans believe the Biden presidency is illegitimate, and four in 10 say they intend to blame election fraud if their party doesn't retake Congress on Tuesday. If Democrats retain both houses, I'd be surprised if the proportion were that low.
Right now, this kind of claim, regardless of its partisan source, retains the power to shock. They're not entirely novel, of course, but accusations on this scale have not been the norm in American politics in recent memory. Yet it's possible to imagine that they could become the norm and, in the process, lose their teeth.
If we go through one election cycle after another, and every time the losers unjustifiably cry fraud, eventually the claim will cease to impress. For me and, I suspect, other Americans who aren't strong partisans, that's happening already. As long as an election theft allegation isn't accompanied by some concrete action, like a viable push for new legislation or a violent riot, increasingly my first response is to roll my eyes and move on. If this is performative politicking and nothing more, I'm not going to waste my time thralling to partisan nonsense.
That might not be a good reaction. I realize "normalizing election denial" sounds terrible. But I don't see these claims going away any time soon, and if the only realistic alternative is for them to be a serious thing, then by comparison, defanging via normalization doesn't sound so bad. Making election theft into a metaphorical shout of grief is a reckless, foolish use of language and a path I wish our country wouldn't take. But better, I suppose, to have a stupid hyperbole than to have sore losers schedule a storming of the Capitol every four years.
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Yeesh, thanks for finally catching up to what a lot of people were saying for 5 years now. Better late than never, I guess. "Election Deniers" are everywhere, not just one specific political party.
Well, but you need to understand: 2 years ago (TWO, not six or ten- precisely 2) if you were screaming at the top of your lungs "Stolen Election!" you were a treasonous inciter who needed to be brought up on charges of something. Anyone who joined you is an "Election Denier" who is unfit for office.
But going forward, if you are screaming "STOLEN ELECTION!" we should just view it as hyperbole. Because now everyone does it, so who are we to judge! It's just political discourse.
Between this and amnesty for COVIDians, we sure are turning into a forgiving country. How benevolent of us.
"Between this and amnesty for COVIDians, we sure are turning into a forgiving country. How benevolent of us."
That Atlantic article also came to mind after reading this and I am glad I wasn't the only one that made that connection. This whole "Well, both sides were wrong so let's let bygones be bygones" rings hollow as hell when you consider which side was more of the aggressor (and which side was more successful in getting their stuff done, to the detriment of others).
Election denier amnesty?
BING! +1 Data Point
If you screamed RIGGED ELECTION 6 years ago, you were a probably a high-ranking Democrat.
What should we then think of Trump claiming that 3 million illegals voted for Hillary in 2016? (I'm sure that number he used had nothing to do with getting 2,868,686 fewer votes than her.)
that, or a very popular well respected (amongst high society) political commentator, or an academic 'intellectual', or former 'most qualified presidential candidate ever'.
Really is telling when the only difference is the party involved, but the message is 100% the same
And how much do you want to bet that all this talk about stopping violent rhetoric all goes away this Wednesday if the democrats lose as bad as it appears they will?
After all, nothing is more vicious and violent than a leftist.
then all of a sudden riots will again be about expressing speech, freedom of assembly, and the 'will of the majority'.
Remember how much shit got destroyed on Trumps inauguration? That got memory holed real quick by the MSM
You're wrong and if you were intellectually honest, you'd admit that. These things ate not equivalent.
,
Majority of Democrats and a majority of Republicans are "election deniers". Does not sound like a big issue to me.
And they BOTH stole the win from Gary Johnson in 2016!
Gary Johnson’s victory in 2016 should have been a cakewalk!
That's why his campaign said "bake the cake"!
And the rest of the 72% of the time he agreed with Bernie Sanders, and his running-mate's gun-grabber instincts are exactly why I went ahead and tossed my vote Trump's way. Not because I wanted to vote for Trump, an odious, ill-tempered, childish man. If I'm going to vote for someone who is not very libertarian, might as well actually try to keep Sec. Clinton from winning.
Your thinking could use increased rigor.
People mention Stacy Abrahams and Hillary Clinton when trying to apply the whole "both sides do it" nonsense. This is just more stupid Trumpism that has has infected our political system. There have always been sore losers, but only one party has made the denial of election outcomes an actual tactic for stealing elections they can't win. Only one party has sold the nonsense to its base and only one violent subset of that Party's base has decided to stalk ballot boxes, infiltrate polls, and threaten voters with violence. It's stupid and anyone possessing even a semblance of *Reason* needs to go on the offensive to stop the bullshit if we want to have elections that work. I get that not everyone likes the idea of democracy, but those folks actively trying to subvert elections need to be dealt with harshly by *actual* American patriots who understand that this is only our country as long as we can keep it. Once it's given to fascism there is no getting it back.
No widespread corruption.
Only the LieCheatSteal party has objected to election results before, both times when "W" won and when Trump did, and in none of those cases did they have the slightest of evidence.
When Clintoon and 0blama won, no Republican raised objections.
The 2020 election had so many "irregularities", "anomalies", "inconsistencies", as well as open illegal changes in election laws, censored news stories and a follow-up article in Time magazine admitting to "a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information."
That's the difference and your imbecilic description is just as dishonest as the rest of your election-stealing comrades.
Half the Democrats in congress didn't attend Trump's inaugural because they said he was "illegitimate". Leftists rioted in the streets. Activists chanted "not my president", when they weren't shrieking at the sky.
"but only one party has made the denial of election outcomes an actual tactic for stealing elections they can’t win."
What horseshit. Either you're arguing from ignorance or malevolence. Either way you're lying.
In January 2017, after Trump's win, House Democrats objected to certifying the election results in 9 states. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Wisconsin and Wyoming.
About 70 House Democrats boycotted Trump’s inauguration.
In the past, Democrats have objected to Electoral College results on the flimsiest possible grounds. In 2001, 2005 and 2017, Democratic Representatives and, in 2005, Senators voted against accepting the Electoral College tally.
Thus, every Republican president since George H. W. Bush has seen Democrats vote against accepting the legitimacy of his election.
And then there's the riots. The Democratic Party organized violent riots across the country when Trump was inaugurated.
At the inauguration Washington DC saw cars torched, cops beaten and federal property destroyed in an orgy of violence that made J6 look like a Tupperware party.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/arrests-violence-flares-parts-capital-inauguration-day/story?id=44925970
Either you’re arguing from ignorance or malevolence.
It's both.
Democrats 2016 insurrection was just smaller "The states were counted, but three protestors started yelling from the visitors’ gallery of the chamber. "
1:09 P.M. ET: Rep. Jim McGovern of Massachusetts rose to object to the certificate from Alabama.
“The electors were not lawfully certified, especially given the confirmed and illegal activities engaged by the government of Russia,” McGovern said.
Biden denied McGovern on the grounds that he didn’t have a senator’s signature on his written objection.
1:14 P.M.: Rep. Jamie Raskin of Maryland rose to object to 10 of Florida’s 29 electoral votes.
“They violated Florida’s prohibition against dual office holders,” Raskin said.
Again, despite the fact that Raskin pointed out that he had his objection in writing, he failed to get a senator’s signature.
1:15 P.M.: No sooner had the Florida question been settled than its neighbor to the north was the subject of another objection, when Washington’s Rep. Pramila Jayapal objected to Georgia’s vote certificate.
“It is over,” Biden told the congresswoman.
1:21 P.M.: Rep. Barbara Lee of California brought up voting machines and Russian hacking when she objected following the counting of Michigan’s votes.
“People are horrified by the overwhelming evidence of Russian interference in our election,” Lee said.
Once again, her objection was denied for the lack of a senator’s signature. They also turned off her microphone.
1:23 P.M.: After New York’s tally was read, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas stood up to object.
“I object on the massive voter suppression that included –” Jackson Lee began.
“The debate is not in order,” Biden interrupted. Again, the congresswoman lacked a senator’s signature.
1:28 P.M.: Arizona’s Rep. Raul Grijalva rose to object after North Carolina’s tally. He tried to object on violations of the Voting Rights Act, but Biden shut him down.
As you may have guessed, he didn’t have the signature of a senator.
Once he gave up, Jackson Lee tagged him out and tried to object to the votes herself. They cut off her microphone, too.
“There is no debate. There is no debate. There is no debate,” a visibly agitated Biden said as he gaveled.
1:31 PM: Jackson Lee made another appearance minutes later after South Carolina’s certification.
“There is no debate in the joint session,” Biden said, shutting her down once more.
1:36 PM: Biden must have thought, after five minutes of peace and getting through the state of West Virginia, that the House members might observe the rules. Lee wasn’t even able to make it through her objection before Biden said, “There is no debate.”
They cut off her microphone again.
1:37 PM: Wisconsin’s votes had been read. With just Wyoming to go, the finish line was in reach.
Jackson Lee once again tried to make an objection on the grounds of Russian interference in the election.
“The objection cannot be received,” Biden said.
1:38 PM: The final state’s votes had been read. Then entered California Rep. Maxine Waters.
Taking a play from her own book – she objected to the certification of George W. Bush’s 2000 election – Waters admitted that she didn’t have a senator’s signature on her objection.
“I wish to ask: Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?” Waters asked. Through House Speaker Paul Ryan’s chuckle and boos from the rest of the chamber, it was clear that there was not.
1:40 PM: The states were counted, but three protestors started yelling from the visitors’ gallery of the chamber. At least one of them was reciting the Constitution as he was taken away by security.
Biden did not look thrilled.
But at the end of the day, despite the objections, Trump’s election was certified by Congress.
#resist
#notmypresident
Nancy Pelosi
@SpeakerPelosi
Our election was hijacked. There is no question. Congress has a duty to #ProtectOurDemocracy & #FollowTheFacts.
12:44 PM · May 16, 2017
Democrats and the media spent almost 2 years trying to figure out how Clinton could still be made President.
https://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-president-lawrence-lessig-post-686077
"How Hillary Clinton Still Can, and Should, Become President After the Trump-Russia Investigation
BY JULIA GLUM ON 10/16/17 AT 4:00 PM EDT"
An article in Bustle even lists different schemes (with all the necessary details) put forward before inauguration day...pretty much all just like the claims Trump made in 2020...
Fantasy Scenario #1: Missing Votes For Clinton Trigger Recounts
Fantasy Scenario #2: Vote Tampering Brought to Light; Trump Votes Invalidated
Fantasy Scenario #3: Electoral College Gone Wild
Fantasy Scenario #4: Trump "Fails To Qualify" Before January
Fantasy Scenario #5: Obama Seats Supreme Court Justice Without The Senate
Fantasy Scenario #6: Blue States Secede
Fantasy Scenario #7: Boycotts And Embargoes Used Against Trump
Fantasy Scenario #8: Maybe Trump Was Just Pretending To Be Conservative?
And don't forget the Iowa Democrat who lost her election and begged Speaker Pelosi to seat her anyway. [To her credit, Pelosi chose not to stoop this low.]
"Defeated Dem Candidate Wants Pelosi To Overturn Election, Declare Her the Winner"
A shockingly close congressional race in Iowa saw the defeat of a state senator by a margin of fewer than 50 votes, and a subsequent recount only confirmed the Democratic candidate’s loss.
Now, she’s going above the people and the state of Iowa itself, instead turning to the Democrat-led House of Representatives to hand her the election.
Iowa state Sen. Rita Hart is planning to make the demand after a late November recount lowered her margin of defeat from 47 votes to six votes, Politico reported. Earlier this week, state officials certified the victory of Hart’s Republican opponent, Mariannette Miller-Meeks.
Hart is seeking to invoke a House process outlined in the Federal Contested Elections Act of 1969, which gives the House Administration Committee latitude to open an investigation before reporting back to the full chamber.
After receiving the report, lawmakers would decide whether to seat the defeated Hart or her victorious Republican rival with a simple vote. According to Politico, the brashness of this move left some members of Hart’s own party stunned.
Hart faced a Wednesday deadline to file for state deliberation efforts, which would have put her case in front of a tribunal comprised of an Iowa Supreme Court justice and other lower judges. But she opted to turn to the House of Representatives instead.
“With a margin this small, it is critical that we take this next step to ensure Iowans’ ballots that were legally cast are counted,” Hart campaign manager Zach Meunier told Politico.
It’s worth mentioning again that voters’ ballots were counted twice, both times showing a defeat for Hart.
Despite the votes of Iowans, the election will now seemingly be decided by a slew of lawmakers from all states of the Union.
Oh look, a new liar. Or at least a new handle.
"...This is just more stupid Trumpism..."
This is just one more TDS-addled pile of shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Found the NPC.
-jcr
First of all, we are NOT a democracy. We are a constitutional republic. So get your fucking facts straight. It makes you sound like a moron. Secondly you democrats are guilty of all the things you describe and so much more. So stop lying. The illegal 11th hour legislative and court decisions regarding election laws in swing states was egregious enough, not even counting myriad and numerous incidents of outright fraud.
So just stop with your bullshit. No one here is buying it, and certainly not a huge portion of,the American people.
I actually like your post because it leaves me thinking that you might be criticizing Democrats, but I am not sure. Certainly everything you said applies to Democrats, whom I detest because they are loathsome. To my mind, Democrats have done their level best to destroy American's faith in (mostly) honest elections.
I plan to vote against any candidate with a "D" next to their name for the remainder of my life.
Groundless 'Election Fraud' Accusations Might Become Normalized
Welcome to 22 years ago.
Everyone knows Lincoln stole the election from McClellan in 1864.
I used Grover Cleveland’s Presidential Time Machine to go back to 1864 and steal that election. I put it where no one will EVER find it.
Just don’t look behind my refrigerator.
If you’re going to be shocked if there’s a red wave and democrats suddenly become election deniers and conspiracy theorists, you’re not paying attention.
If you’re going to be shocked that election denial and conspiracy theories become politically correct after a red wave, you haven’t been paying attention.
Bonnie, you're about 5 years late to the party, but at least you finally got here.
I remember years and YEARS ago, someone was being interviewed on NPR (like, back in the 90s years ago) and they were bitching about how every supreme court justice was dragged through the mud and scrutinized over their personal lives, their garbage dug into by journalists, people coming out of the woodwork to accuse them of all kinds of personal foibles and transgressions.
The reliably liberal interviewee said, "And let's face it, our side kind of started it with Robert Bork."
Correct.
But, like the Senate's rules, Republicrats of all stripes are simply using what happened in the past as cover for doing what they really want to do in the present.
What others have done in the past is not a justification for doing the same thing in the present.
I mean russia started violence in the Ukraine, how dare Ukraine commit violence on response.
What fucking idiocy you show.
You are saying that there is no difference between offence and defence. Interesting.
Like keep our country free, have control over our borders avoid WW3, and stop runaway inflation? Yeah, republicans want to do that.
Your fellow travelers are a bunch of sociopathic totalitarians. And you’re an evil piece of shit for supporting them.
Whoa whoa - don't forget threat to democracy.
Trump says the election was stolen from him because it was.
Hillary says that the republicans stole the election in 2016 because she was supposed to win. If Trump had campaigned like a Bush, the fortifications that were in place for Hillary would have worked. But Trump didn't campaign like a member of the GOP elite-- because they hate him.
The left cries 'fraud' and 'suppression' whenever they lose anything.
The right cries fraud after the left publishes articles crowing about how they committed fraud.
Big difference.
Exactly. Who owns Dominion Voting? Hint: They bought it is 2018, middle of Trump's term.
How many votes do they control? Over 40% of Americans, particularly swing states.
Is it a public company based in the US with transparency? No and No.
Does it have the capability to weight votes (yes) and why? Right.
Where's the Pulitzer Prize journalism on a Soros spin off hedge fund owning Dominion Voting? NOWHERE.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/dominion-voting-systems-acquired-by-its-management-team-and-staple-street-capital-300681752.html
Because they have so much money they sue everyone into silence. Imagine if the Kochs owned the machines controlling the swing states. I'm guessing that would make the news.
Sidney, is that you?
How many court rulings have shown illegal election law changes in 2020? Are you even aware? Do you support 100% voting rates from nursing homes that include dementia patients and people who can't even carry a conversation?
Your denial of any fraud is probably the most idiotic take someone can push regarding elections.
You might want to try that again. The OP was actually discussing voting machines, specifically Dominion voting machines. Of course, he also mentioned a "Soros spin off hedge fund owning Dominion", which is pure consipracy theory nonsense. The private equity investor was Staple Street Capital, which is not a "Soros spin off". (The previous false Dominion ownership conspiracy theory, by the way, was that China had purchased Dominion in October 2020.)
It's almost like you only see what you want to see!
Who come from the Carlyle Group among others. Which definitely have or have/had Soros connections. This may or may not mean anything. But it’s not out of nowhere.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has stated that the changes in voting procedures enacted by the Governor and the Secretary of State for the 2020 election were probably illegal. How about we ask Kathy Boockvar? Oh wait, the Wolf Administration has criminal charges hanging over her head.
No faggot, it’s not.
Trump says the election was stolen because it's his best chance at staying out of jail. Going to bat for an idiot thug based on a demonstrably nonsensical lie only makes you look dumb.
Hillary is as pure as the driven snow.
More imbecility from the left.
"Trump says the election was stolen because it’s his best chance at staying out of jail."
Are the walls closing in, steaming pile of shit?
Yeah, you Fags finally got him! The walls are closing in! This time it’s for real!
Seriously, do you ever have even a single moment of self awareness?
Trump's claim is that he actually had more votes than were officially attributed to him, due to widespread voting fraud, which he has comprehensively failed to prove.
Clinton's claim was that the election's results had been improperly and illegally influenced, not that the votes themselves had not been properly attributed to her. Although the unlawful influence has been proven, it was not proven to have been sufficient to have changed the outcome of the 2016 election.
That should be the standard.
You do realize they haven't been given access to voting machines nor vote tallies right? Are you aware that in major democratic suburbs they destroyed envelopes despite a law requiring them to be kept for 2 years and the votes counter are up to 10% larger than initial envelope counts for mail in ballots? That roughly 40k people voted in wrong districts in Ga and Florida? Tens of thousands of double voters not prosecuted? Wisconsin illegally filling in neighborhood addresses and witness signatures used to validate votes?
Youre a fucking ignorant person.
He doesn’t care. He’s a traitor and a propagandist. Also most lie,lay just another pablum puking drone. Regurgitating the talking points emailed to him daily by his Marxist masters.
Just another wokie NPC.
Oh, dear! You seem to be unaware that these claims have already been rejected by the entire US judicial system. Even the Trump-appointed judges have rejected the Trump lawsuits. IS THERE NO JUDICIAL LOYALTY ANYMORE?!?
Which wasn’t usually based on a review of evidence or lack thereof. Most were tossed out on lack of standing. Which probably means they weren’t about to be The Judge who disputed the elections.
You really are a dishonest shitweasel.
Yet another reason to get rid of elections and replace them with sortition (random selection like the jury pool)
Um, no. Jackholes will still get in power. But it is yet another reason to champion LIMITED government.
Exactly! That way whomever is in the shadows making the 'random' selection gets to decide who gets into office and who gets disappeared! Or whomever writes the algorithm gets to decide! Win/Win/Win!
More scintillating gems of wisdom from JSlave.
Just imagine the horrors if he was picked.
It is not profitable to try to hack RNG systems for a freaking 'election' even if the entire country used a single RNG system. When the alternative is to instead hack casinos, lotteries, blockchains, banks, etc.
It is impossible to hack different RNG systems at either the state or district level.
It is also impossible to hack said systems - AND have the outcomes comport with, in aggregate, the law of large numbers. Not just the outcomes based on the usual identity/demographics of politics (race, sex, party registration, etc) but the ton of other aggregated outcomes that also comport with the law of large numbers (weight, age, height, occupation, IQ, etc).
Nothing about sortition will stop the attempt at corruption AFTER the legislature is chosen. But that is much easier to monitor and control than corruption that occurs before the election even happens.
Gaming machines ar far more secure than any voting machine. By democrat design.
We kind of have that now. How do you think the VP was picked?
Based on Biden's track record, it's most likely because she was a minority, or at the very least, it was the first aspect he used to select who his VP was going to be.
Which he said, and was celebrated for, at the time. It's so fucking condescending, I can't think anyone with an iota of self worth would accept it.
Kneeling lineup?
"Yet another reason to get rid of elections and replace them with sortition (random selection like the jury pool)"
You're full if shit in more ways than one asshole; read this to see the results of your chicken little act:
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf
It's a 'report card' regarding all the horseshit you backed at the time, fuck-face.
Sortition is not part of the American Constitutional tradition, nor would it ever be freely chosen by the American people, so what is the point of bringing this up?
But I'm glad you did, because it reminds me that replacing representative democracy with sortition is also the goal of Extinction Rebellion's "Third Demand". You're in good company!
Juries are a long standing part of our legal system and the right to a jury trial indicates that there is a very deeply held belief that sortition is the ultimate protection of an individual's liberty v the state.
Yes, in trials, to determine questions of fact, not law. You're proposing that the same system be employed to create policy and law. There is no precedent for that in the American legal tradition, and I cannot see the American people ever agreeing to that.
It doesn't need everyone's approval ahead of time. A political party could set up a sortition assembly on its own. Have it judge what the legislature is doing. And then let the people decide. Don't even need to replace one with the other.
No, but you being replaced w/ a randomly selected person would provide higher likelihood of support for individual liberties and less chance of the revisionist history you've been writing.
That would be really fucking stupid. Maybe we can just purge the left and get back to electing a better class of people.
Biden has been so successful, and Democratic messaging ("Remember 1 / 6!" "Fascism vs. Democracy!" "We got the Liz Cheney endorsement!") so well crafted, that the only logical outcome is #BlueWave2022.
Anything other than Democratic control of the House and Senate will mean RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION and / or JIM CROW 2.0 VOTER SUPPRESSION.
#ElectionsAreOnlyLegitimateWhenDemocratsWin
At this point dullards have become so brainwashed by Trump that apparently some of them have actually begun to believe his idiotic nonsense. No one is trying to steal an election from you. What few allegations that were even possible have been easily debunked, so Republicans just make up new ones. It's gobsmackingly stupid. Focus on learning how elections work before you start screaming that they don't, or can't. Or whatever. Stupidity and an inability to draw obvious conclusions from piles of *real* evidence will be the downfall of our country. Historians will laugh at the gullibility of the Common Redneck once they stop crying at the damage they caused. The richest country in the history of the world allowed idiots to treat fantasy like reality. People had so much given to them that they began to see anything that was difficult os (god no!) "unfair" seemed to them like they were being enslaved. It's a gross ignorance of history and politics and the luxury to pretend that ignorance is just as good as knowledge that got us to where we are now. Grow the fuck up.
Responded with sincerity to a parody account.
The only thing debunked is that Joe Bai-dung won.
And an increasing number of Americans, of all parties - except for the galactically stupid - are coming to that realization.
"At this point dullards have become so brainwashed by Trump..."
Eat shit and die, TDS-addled asshole.
The salient question is whether this decline we are witnessing is simply the natural and inevitable result of its "success", or whether the decline is more attributable to the deliberate efforts of a malign outside influence.
What decline? Reports show average, to above average, early voting in most states that allow it. Can you fucking tell the truth?
The decline mentioned in Freethinksman's comment, obviously. I also see the USA from a foreign perspective, from which the decline in the US' global status is perhaps more obvious than it is from deep within the trenches.
You’re funny, thinking you’re intelligent. If we are dullards, you’re severely retarded by comparison. You faggots are propping up a subnormal idiot suffering from advanced dementia as president and want to elect a stroke vicitm with severe cognitive damage to the US senate. Because that’s all you’ve got.
Your party should be destroyed and traitors like you removed from this country.
But if we remove Biden, we'll get Harris. Is that really what you want?
Once we have a real speaker we can remove them both, for cause. If Trump can be impeached over a phone cal, it will be simple to flush these two turds. Of course no democrat will ever vote patriotically.
I firmly believe the Nazis did steal the last several elections. Those damn white supremacists will steal anything that's not nailed down.
The election was more stolen then soros going through a jews house!
I thought that was the Jooz. Are they the new Not-sees?
Careful, you’re going to summon the Misek and his Fourth Reich.
What are Ye talking about?
US elections have always been vulnerable to fraud and that has only been exacerbated by all of the emergency rule changes in 2020 many of which have become permanent. Until we have elections with an auditable paper trail people doubt their legitimacy. And they should.
We had a paper trail, but the wrong person won Florida. So to make things better and improve confidence in elections we went to electronic voting machines. Now, no one trusts the results. Typical government efficiency there.
no, people doubt the legitimacy of elections because people who knew better let them believe it. Willful ignorance by intellectually lazy (or just plain simple) folks took us down. A democracy like our was predicated on an engaged and literate electorate. Instead, we got people like Hannity and Rush and Carlson riling up simple people. The Murdoch's got richer and America lost its reason for existing in the first place.
I like how you assume everyone is “simple”.
Anyone who disagrees with him is a simple peasant. It’s a common delusion among wokiekind. Even though they’re poorly educated drones without an original between them.
Wokies have tiny minds and stunted dreams.
Holy shit!
Bai-dungs entire cabinet can't rub two brain cells together and this imbecile is calling commentators simple.
More leftist projection.
"...Willful ignorance by intellectually lazy (or just plain simple) folks took us down..."
Yeah, courtesy of TDS-addled shitpiles like you, we got droolin' Joe.
Fuck off and die.
If ‘election fraud’ can take the crown from whichever of these it the current belt holder
Nazi
Racist
Anti-woman
Out of Touch
Dark
I’ll be amazed.
BELIEVE ALL ELECTYNS
let me enlighten bonnie. the 2020 presidential election was stolen. the us constitution clearly and unambiguously states that ONLY the state legislatures can make election law. not governors, not state supreme courts, not other courts, not unelected bureaucrats. but what happened in 2020 is that many states changed their election laws in the name of stupidity or covid, outside of the legal method. meaning their laws were changed by governors, courts, etc. this is not a conspiracy theory but a matter of historical record. these illegal changes to state election law means that all those votes are invalid and certainly changes the outcome of the election.
Your willingness to disenfranchise innocent voters speaks volumes.
wrong conclusion. it's about following the rule of law. if the votes are illegal then they absolutely should not be counted. it will teach those people a lesson.
The law should be followed, and failure to do so punished, but your interest appears to be in the disenfranchisement of innocent voters who had no responsibility for the alleged lawbreaking. It sounds to me like your primary concern is the outcome, rather than the faulty process.
Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions? I tell you what: I'll keep an open mind and see what else you say on this topic.
Our interest is in following legitimate law. Not making shit up as we go along. That’s the democrat way.
Is that because you think brown and black people are too stupid to follow simple rules?
Show me a quote where you said you don't want to kill your neighbors over politics. You can't do it. If you say it now then you're backpeddling on what you didn't say. You've made it clear that not saying something equals saying the worst possible thing one can imagine. That right there is proof that you want to kill brown and black people because statistically they vote donkey. Ironclad proof. Especially since you've never condemned anyone for saying similar things. That's proof of agreement.
You really are a sick person. Wanting to murder people because the color of their skin suggests they vote differently than you. Fucking sicko.
Gosh. Sarc is white knighting for the wokie leftist, but he’s TOTALLY not a democrat.
I’ll be this idiot repeats the democrat lie about 25% of blacks not having picture ID.
I'd love to disenfranchise people. If I had my way only taxpayers over the age of 25 would be allowed to vote. Can't select stewards of tax dollars unless you pay in. That means government employees and people on the dole can't vote. And I'd raise the age because you shouldn't be able to vote unless you're old enough to hold office.
" If I had my way only taxpayers over the age of 25 would be allowed to vote. "
Everyone pays taxes, including tourists and those 'undocumented workers.' You pay tax every time you buy gasoline, for example.
I would disenfranchise all voters who don't contribute to the common pot, and those who have conflict of interest (such as government employees).
Election fraud is less hyperbolic than calling anybody who has doubts an election was honestly administered an "election denier".
Seriously, in a card game, do we call anyone who demands the deck be cut a "poker denier"?
I was reading Substack today and the writer had a clip from Tucker Carlson. Now, normally I'm not inclined towards Tucker but he made a good point. The best way to improve confidence is through transparency. It's not to shut down anyone who has a question. I guess I'm now an election denier, because I have plenty of questions about what happened in 2020, while at the same time I think Biden likely won, albeit it was a very abnormal win. Also, I have read the Constitution and from my reading the state vote totals aren't binding but the electoral college is, and once the legislature confirmed the EC, no matter what fraud occurred, the EC elected Biden. So, Trump may or may not have a point but the EC didn't award him the Presidency. At this point I'm more concerned about correcting the mistakes of 2020, so it doesn't happen again. That being said if evidence is found of actual cheating,those cheaters, and the people who enabled or abided the should be tried to full extant of the law.
And yet we have democrats outraged at having election observers this election, monitoring ballot drop boxes, etc.
How DARE you ask questions!!!!!!!!
The people claiming the election was stolen are switching the burden of proof. There's no possible way to prove there were no shenanigans. The side claiming fraud can just keep saying "Not good enough. Not good enough." Guilty until proven innocent.
That's my major problem with the people who refuse to accept the outcome of the election. Because the burden of proof is switched, there's literally no possible way to prove there was no fraud. Nothing will be good enough.
But courts ruling that even investigating specific allegations is not permitted is not a bigger problem? My biggest problem is that the courts ruled on merit and standing not to even allow investigations, at which time the media began crowing that claims (no matter how specific) were false. The few states that actually did audits, found numerous dubious votes, etc, while the authorities sued to stop any and all audits. Additionally, there were several cases of voting precincts, in the most contested precincts, who destroyed records or misplaced them, contrary to state laws, which means no investigation could occur. So, maybe they didn't have evidence, but it also appears that a lot of people went out of the way to make any investigation for evidence nearly impossible. I can say, I think something funny happened, let me investigate, but if you deny the right to investigate, you can't then turn around and say, you have no proof, the burden of evidence is on you. That's a classic catch-22. I expect better of you in your serious posts.
You’re saying the investigations may have showed something. By switching the burden of proof the outcome wouldn’t matter. If it shows what you want you declare everything is settled and there’s no need for any more investigation. If it’s not what you want then you say “not good enough” and it continues. There was a reason the framers created a system where you’re innocent until proven guilty. It’s impossible to prove innocence to someone who keeps saying “not good enough.”
You are asserting fraud, and declaring that the fraudsters are guilty until proven innocent.
How can they show evidence if they are denied to even look? Love your catch 22. They made specific complaints, asked to look at the results in lieu of those complaints and were denied. Then you say they have to provide proof? How can they if they can't even fucking look? How?
Nobody was denied their day in court. Courts have standard procedures, not special procedures for special plaintiffs. Not even Trump-appointed judges agreed with you: the election-deniers' burden was simply not met.
Sixty-two out of 63 cases they lost. Unless there was fraud committed by these courts (which you have not alleged, much less proved), then the logical conclusion is that the judges acted properly and threw out all those cases for legitimate procedural reasons. Weak, politically inspired "fundraising" lawsuits tend to suffer that fate.
If you don't understand why they lost, go to law school and find out.
I'd suggest not using the word "denier." It's an emotionally charged word that was picked because using it puts people on the defensive. Unless that's your goal. But if your goal is an exchange of ideas, calling someone a denier isn't a good start.
This is a complete misreading of what occurred. Proven by the almost 2 dozen lawsuits that have now been decided against illegal rules since 2020.
You really are one dumb idiot. No wonder sarc agrees with you.
So you cite "2 dozen lawsuits" your side has allegedly won, but don't see how that is incompatible with the claim that your side has been "denied your day in court"?
Denied it when there was still time for it to have mattered.
Once it was too late for Trump to benefit, THEN the cases could proceed.
How do you lose a "case" when you are not allowed to present it in the first place? None of those 62 cases were judged on their merits. They were never allowed to have been brought before the Court due to some BS procedural issues. My favorite one was one where they were told that they couldn't bring up the case before Election Day because they had suffered "no harm". After Election Day when they tried to bring the case they were told that they had "No Standing".
And no, I didn't assert fraud or say anyone was guilty, I said some funny things happened, specific complaints were made, but no investigation was ever conducted. Thus, the no evidence argument is false. It's how fucking investigations work. An incident happens, it's not normal, a complaint is made, the authorities conduct an investigation and determine if their is evidence of a crime. I call and say someone broke into my house. The cops show up and investigate, they don't fucking require me to produce evidence before they show up. Fuck, that's exactly what you're asking. Is that before an investigation can begin, evidence must be irreputable. That is not how investigations occur. You fucking investigate to determine if there is evidence. Fuck, that is the dumbest, most ill informed statement you've ever made. The whole debate as to who has to produce evidence is an asinine one. A charge was made. An investigation should have occurred. And if nothing is found, nothing happens. I mean it's about transparency. We aren't talking cops showing up and throwing people in jail and then deciding what charges to make. We're talking about specific complaints and asking for an investigation of the government, which is every Americans right. So, if I contend that Biden audited me because of my political beliefs, and I file a FOIA, I should be denied because I don't have concrete evidence?
And no, at no point did I say anyone was guilty of anything. Nor did I say anyone committed fraud. Fuck, can't you fucking read? Fuck, this is why I give you so much shit. This complete misrepresentation of what I wrote. It is dishonest, and dishonorable, and because of the total misrepresentation of what I actually addressed, it verges on insulting and ad hominem. No, you deserve every fucking piece of shit people throw at you, you fucking liar. I never said what you posted that I said and never even fucking implied it. I was pointing out that it's hard to find evidence if you can't even investigate. That doesn't imply guilt and in no fucking way violates innocent until proven guilty. Doing a fucking investigation is how you gather fucking evidence. It's even a scientific fucking principle. You make an observation (some funny things were reported to happen). You ask a question (was this legal) you conduct an investigation (gather evidence) and then you draw a conclusion (nothing or something happened). You saying that before you can even make an observation, you need irrefutable evidence, then you start the investigation. What a fucking stupid take. In the words of Sevo (which you just fucking earned) fuck off and die. I never stated fraud occurred, I said there was some funny things and unanswered questions, and therefore an investigation should have occurred rather than no investigation. To fucking answer the fucking questions for those of us who don't think fucking fraud occurred but do have fucking questions. Also, look above, I stated it does not fucking matter anyhow, since the Presidency is decided by the fucking Electoral College, which legally elected Biden. Fuck, you dishonest piece of shit! Fuck off.
My gate was open the other day to my pasture. I hadn't gone through that gate in two days, and it was closed the day before when I checked. It's hunting season. My property is marked. I suspect someone was hunting without permission and left the gate open. I didn't catch anyone. Since I didn't catch anyone I guess I'm being unreasonable to ask my neighbor if he saw anyone hunting on my place when I was not there. It's possible the gate got opened some other way. Maybe my cows figured out how to unlatch it. Maybe the horse or sheep did. Maybe the barn cats, or chickens (who were locked up in their coops). But I guess by Sarcs standard, I was wrong to ask my neighbor if he saw hunters. He didn't but did hear shooting from my place and we found empty shotgun shells in the pasture. I guess I was wrong for investigating, because I didn't have evidence before I started the investigation other than the fence being down and posting a bigger no trespassing sign on the effected gate was wrong because I didn't have all the evidence before I investigated (I didn't call the sheriff's because I don't know who did it). And I guess I was wrong today to assume the guy who passed me on the road to my place, dressed in an orange vest with a short haired pointer, was a hunter. And if the gate is down again tomorrow, I guess I can't question or ask the sheriff's to look into it because I don't have evidence before hand that something happened.
The crybaby-in-chief didn't like the results of the election. Even before the results were tallied he said he'd declare fraud if he lost, and that's exactly what he did. He whipped his followers into a frenzy and went on a quest to find the crimes that caused him to lose. Upon not finding anything that could have changed the outcome he declared the election to be fraudulent, and his followers swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Stop being a follower.
So in you fucking dishonest world the following quote means I'm stating fraud occurred and they're guilty until proven innocent?
" So, Trump may or may not have a point but the EC didn’t award him the Presidency. At this point I’m more concerned about correcting the mistakes of 2020, so it doesn’t happen again. That being said if evidence is found of actual cheating,those cheaters, and the people who enabled or abided the should be tried to full extant of the law."
That is a direct quote from the first post of mine you responded to. Here is another:
"I guess I’m now an election denier, because I have plenty of questions about what happened in 2020, while at the same time I think Biden likely won, albeit it was a very abnormal win."
Now,show where I said anyone was guilty or committed fraud? Come on you dishonest fuck, show me.
This is why I just muted the stupid little bitches. It's all shitposting and arguments in bad faith. It's not worth straining the sewage for the few kernels of corn any of them might produce.
My point is quite simple. Is there anything that could convince you the election results are legit? The answer to that is no. There is nothing on this earth that could persuade you to accept the election results. Nothing. That is because you've already decided guilt, and there is no way to convince you otherwise.
That's what guilty until proven innocent means.
It’s a worthless hypothetical because we k ow at least some of the alleged fraud is real. And there is no question there were illegal actions taken to alter state election laws by governors, judges, etc.. but you won’t hear of it because your life is ruled by two things. Your alcoholism, andyour pathological hatred of Trump.
My mind can be changed. Show me proof that there was fraud beyond the margin of victory and you’ll quickly get my interest. May even convince me that Trump really won.
Your mind cannot be changed. It is made up. There is no evidence that could convince you the election results were legit.
Now please stop calling me names and start acting like an adult.
How can anyone provide evidence if they were blocked from looking for evidence? Fuck, you're to stupid to debate with anymore, on top of being a completely disingenuous fuck. Muted. Fuck off you're no longer worth my time. Just keep repeating the same 'no evidence' mantra. When I pointed out that there were discrepancies, i.e probable cause, but that no investigation was allowed, you chirp back 'no evidence' or show me the evidence fraud occurred, and then fucking lie about what I said and then call Trump a cry baby for calling out election changes, that the courts have since ruled he was correct in calling them illegal. So fuck off. I'm done with you inanity.
Trump was a crybaby long before the election. And I'm not the one who coined the term. George Will gets credit for that.
Sorry you're so emotional about this. And if I'm one mute for it, that's all on you.
And there it is. This is all about Trump for you. I’m pretty certain you would rather have democrat control, even if it means nuclear war, than have Trump back in the White House.
In some cases, the courts made sure no evidence can even be produced. For example, PA's Supreme Court (my keyboard suggested "Soviet" but I changed it to "Court") ruled that vote count observers could be practically physically obstructed from seeing anything, as long as they were allowed within the building. Their reasoning was lawyerly sophistry that "meaningful access" to the vote count hadn't been defined in more detail in precedent. So observers could no longer claim that they were denied "meaningful access" to the vote count if they were let o to the building, regardless whether they were held hundreds of feet away from the count, had their view obstructed (on purpose!) by those counting the votes. This doesn't prove vote count irregularities in a swing state, but it sure is fishy.
And plenty of posters have given you volumes of evidence that some real unusual things occurred, enough to raise questions, I.e. probable cause, which is all you need to open an investigation, were you can gather evidence or find no evidence. You know the evidence you keep demanding.
And plenty of people who know more about law than me have explained why this hasn't gone anywhere.
And plenty of people who are honest and know more about the law than those people have explained why we’re right.
Again, you don’t give a shot one way or another. This is all about Trump for you. The world can burn for lo you care, as long as Trump is gone.
I never said the election was perfect. I've said nothing has been presented that looks like it could have changed the outcome. See the difference? No, you don't. You put me on mute because I triggered you. Now you're going to get together with the girls and write long screeds about what I think without the need to call me a liar when I disagree.
Grow up.
You’re a deranged piece of shit. You pollute these forums with your drunken TDS. You should form a progressive punk band and call it ‘The Trump Haters’.
Maybe you can get booked on Mel’s Rock Pile.
"the pussy hatters"
Sorry I meant were decided not on merit but on standing.
How many were decided on standing?
wrong. read my post above. the shenanigans was the government officials who were not the legislature changing election laws. as i said above this is simply a matter of historical record. here is one example of many. in minnesota the secretary of state extended the deadline for receipt of ballots without legislative authorization. this is a violation of the us supreme court and illegal. this means that all votes received after the actual legal deadline were invalid votes and should not have counted. you claim that "there’s literally no possible way to prove there was no fraud", but there is and i just did it. there are many, many other examples just like this one and enough to change the results of the election and make trump president.
you claim that “there’s literally no possible way to prove there was no fraud”, but there is and i just did it.
No you didn't. You gave an example of something you claim changed the outcome.
Proving there was no fraud is proving a negative. I can't prove there was no fraud. Nobody can. The burden of proof is on those asserting fraud. And they haven't done it. That's not to say the election was perfect. Sure there were shenanigans. There always are. The question is if it was greater than the margin of victory. So far I haven't seen anything to convince me of that.
The difference between us is that my mind can be changed. Show me the proof.
Your mind cannot, because no proof is good enough.
Again, you say others minds can't be changed and you want proof while completely ignoring that what they point out is enough to be considered probable cause to open an investigation, which was blocked by the election officials, some of who destroyed the very records which could provide possible evidence. It's a bullshit catch-22, sophistry at its best. And it's bullshit your mind can be changed. You've made that abundantly clear with your 7th grade insults of anyone who even dates question the outcomes. Fuck off you worthless, dishonest fuck.
Wow. You sure told me. How many points do you get for that emotional outburst?
We’re tired of your TDS mania.
“Sure there were shenanigans. There always are.”
Can you admit that the opportunities for shenanigans were greatly increased by all the rule changes?
This is what bothers me. The smug, condescending “sit down and shut up” attitude coming from the same people who insist that climate change will fuck everything up in less than 12 years, and that covid came from a wet market.
I don’t believe a word these assholes say anymore, and they’ve earned that.
"Can you admit that the opportunities for shenanigans were greatly increased by all the rule changes?"
That would depend on what the "2 dozen lawsuits" actually say. However, based on past experience, I would not automatically assume that the outcomes of these alleged lawsuits actually hold what they claim they do. Let's just say legal interpretation is clearly not their strong suit...
(However, if I ever need help with foul-mouthed, bigoted unhinged ranting, I'll know who to call!)
Nice strawman you have there Sarc. You build it all by yourself?
People who decide they don't like the hand they were dealt and refuse to pay the bet they lost are poker deniers. It's more polite than "Cheater" and "Sore Loser".
Preaching ignorance... "It just is!" over and over and over again while ignoring everything.
"People who decide they don’t like the hand they were dealt and refuse to pay the bet they lost are poker deniers. It’s more polite than “Cheater” and “Sore Loser”."
People who post BS like this are TDS-addled piles of shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Spot on observation. Here's a wiki cartoon that illustrates it... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tilden_election.jpg
do we call anyone who demands the deck be cut a “poker denier”?
That would be a "shuffle denier".
So when Biden goes on TV and says that only one party is for democracy....what exactly is that?
Well, our founders certainly were not for de-mob-ocracy. They mandated a republic in Article 4, Section 4 of our Constitution.
De-mob-ocracy gives the best organized mob the power to force EVERYONE in lockstep with it.
+100000000000 ^THIS.....
Very important and the amount of ignorance of it is exactly the failing of the USA.
I mean China, Soviet Russia, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela,Cuba (I could go on) are technically democracies. They allow people to vote (in some cases it's mandatory), but only for government approved candidates and often only from government approved parties or party.
When are leftists going to be as concerned that every vote be verified as they are that every vote should count?
Duh! When right wingers are more successful at stealing votes than they are.
If I was the GOP I'd win with 400,000,000 votes and dare anybody on the left to say a single fucking word.
Of course Joe Biden got 81 million votes the most ever and 12 million more than Obama by staying in his basement for the entire campaign. ?
I think 81 million voters (minus the percent who would vote for an actual corpse if it had a D after it's name) voted to end both Trump and even more the fucking media circus and hyperbole around him. The return to normal wasn't only about how Trump governed but how the media and the left reacted to his presidency. They really thought the left would turn down the heat. Now they realize it just put them on steroids and they likely won't make that mistake again. That's why I think the GOP is set to win 53-55 Senate seats and 31-50 house seats, and 5-6 governorships next Tuesday. The left kept the country hostage for four years (and went overboard during COVID) with the promise that once Trump was gone everything would go back to normal, now they know that was always a lie.
He did. Can't you see that? Just because none of the guys down at the factory voted for him doesn't mean that the majority of the country didn't. Near sighted, scared hicks believe the whole world looks like them. Here's a hint: There is an entire country out past Wal Mart. Cross the Interstate some time and see for yourself. It really isn't that scary.
I honestly think a spoiled tuna sandwich would have beaten Trump in 2020. Most of us just wanted him to STFU.
The specific charges were far more in depth, including reports of republican poll watchers being denied entry, or not allowed clear view of the counting, contrary to the law. Counting being done without any poll watchers, contrary to law, etc. It wasn't just frank talked to Joe and neither voted for Biden so that proves fraud. Fuck, if you're going to ridicule people at least fucking understand what they actually contended rather than make shit up. I don't think there was a conspiracy to commit fraud, but people like you are so ill informed that it fucking hurts. I do think laws were skirted and the courts have mostly agreed since 2021, ruling that the changes made in 2020 were illegal and can't be repeated.
No, he didn't.
I know you can no more see that than your hand in front of your face, but it's the truth.
No one, with the slightest of intelligence thinks Joe, Basement Campaigning, Bai-dung got more votes that Barack 0blama, who got a lot of cross-overs from Republicans hoping that it would finally shut up the race hustlers that claim the U.S. is a racist nation. And, don't forget that 0blama got 3.5 million fewer votes the second time around.
And the idea That Trump lost because he lost supporters, is belied by the fact that he got MORE votes than the last time. If he lost any, he gained that many back and increased his total by 12 million.
"I honestly think a spoiled tuna sandwich would have beaten Trump in 2020. Most of us just wanted him to STFU."
TDS-addled piles of shit post BS like this.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
How's that working out for you?
How is biden working pit for you?
ESL?
Most of us want you and your kind to just STFU.
Indeed.
Thank god for the 2nd Amendment.
That’s not what you wokies usually say. You would disarm us at the first opportunity.
If neither side is going to accept the outcome we may as well go to war.
Who would win?
Those who recognized the importance of the 2nd Amendment.
Unless of course the Nazi(National Socialist)-Empire (i.e. leftards) still controls the (monopoly of guns) Gov-Guns and goes to war with it’s own citizens (genocide) as Nazi-Empires have a running record of doing.
Trump is why we have a 2nd Amendment.
Yet it is democrats trying to unarmed the populace. Strange assertion.
Democrats are misguided semi-leftists who only selectively support the Constitution.
Perhaps one day they will realize why there is a 2nd Amendment?
No, trash like you. And guess who has all the guns and the training and the experience to use them? Not a bunch of faggot beta male soyboys. Kyle Rittenhouse’s proved that.
According to some fag on MSNBC, there are upwards of 30 million armed MAGA patriots ready to go hot in Trump’s word. I don’t believe that is true, but if it was, ‘gov-guns’ won’t matter. Assuming the entire military and all of law enforcement sided with the Biden regime (which wouldn’t happen), they would be out numbered almost ten to one.
It wouldn’t be a civil war. It would be a revolution. And the left would be wiped off the map very quickly. Thankfully, MAGA republicans aren’t evil pieces of shit like leftists so this probably won’t happen.
Per counts from CBS and The Washington Post, most of the Republicans running for congressional office this cycle are election deniers.
When I fore-read CBS I thought we were going to make progress with a Reasoner pointing out that accusations of being an election denier have already been debased by CBS. As pointed out by Mollie Hemingway their definition of an election denier includes opposing any election rules set up by Democrats even if the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional (among other nonsense). But instead a Reasoner cites these very debased statistics as an authority supposedly proving how widespread denialism is among Reps.
Even when Reasoners are right on one aspect they can’t break away from the left’s propaganda. This is supposed to be their life’s work. If I was this bad at my job I wouldn’t expect to have it very long. This is just pathetic.
Yes, most of what Republicans protested occurring in 2020 has been ruled unconstitutional or illegal since then, but that never gets discussed. Instead, pointing that out, and that most swing states didn't even allow investigations, at the same time you screamed 'you have no evidence' makes me really start questioning how accurate the narrative was. I'm not saying Trump was right, or that he wasn't a sore loser but I am saying the group think, the catch-22 on investigations and lack of evidence charges, the courts agreeing with Republicans after the fact, are also extremely fishy. I didn't like Trump because I thought, and still don't, that his attitude was a hindrance to getting things done. I applaud pushback, but think De Santis's style is much more productive.
CBS asserts that believing it is wrong to eliminate signature verification on mail in ballots means you’re an election denier.
No one could possibly teach this conclusion legitimately, it’s fucking ridiculous. They intentionally used this definition to make the numbers bigger and smear people they hate.
According to the fucking dishonest piece of shit named Sarc, see above, even asking for an investigation of specific charges is ruling people guilty and then forcing them to prove innocence. If you suspect something happened, you have to collect evidence without an investigation (don't ask me how the fuck you do that) and then only when you have evidence then conduct the investigation (not sure what you're investigating if you already have evidence). Otherwise, asking for an investigation is the same as claiming fraud and declaring people guilty. The fucking mental gymnastics to get to that point would make Mary Lou Rhetton fucking jealous.
If I suspect someone broke it to my house while I was gone, I guess I can't call the cops to investigate until I have fucking evidence in Sarcs opinion. Can't investigate anything you suspect, even if you have reasonable suspicions (like documentation that Republican poll watchers were denied entry, or denied the right to view the counting process) but that isn't enough to allow a fucking investigation, oh no, you have to have beyond reasonable doubt. It totally shows the stupidity of the argument as to burden of proof. I can't fucking dumb myself down enough, even with whiskey, to comprehend his stance. A charge was made. The courts disallowed any investigation, usually on questionable standing. Sarc says they have no evidence. I say you can't gather evidence without an investigation. You claims that means I'm declaring fraud occurred and labeling someone (not sure who) guilty and forcing them (again who?) to prove they're innocent. Just for maintaining that an investigation would have resolved the doubts many people have. Doubts don't fucking equal claims of fraud.
No, just follow the rules--no special rules for illiberals.
The rules 2 dozen court cases now say were illegal?
Did these "2 dozen court cases" overturn the 2020 election?
Why not?
There is no mechanism for removing a president outside of impeachment. So there is no ‘overturning the election’.
That's the point rules weren't fucking followed. Fuck, are you as stupid and dishonest as Sarc? Why yes you appear to be so.
Anyone who disagrees with you is an evil liar. Yup. It's the only explanation.
You really do excel at being a lying, broken, bitter, drunken piece of shit.
Things can get rather harry when you’re a reasoner.
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One more thing, this is like the third story today I've read that basically has said the same thing (the other two were left of center publications, which sadly this week also describes many Reason writers, Boehm, I'm looking at you specifically). Given this, I'm going out on a limb and say the right has successfully pushed back on the lefts election denier narrative by pointing out the hypocrisy. Also, I'm betting President Potato Heads Orwellian speech Wednesday wasn't well received (I haven't seen many stories on the news aggregate site I check from the left celebrating his speech). Instead, I've read multiple stories today from the left as to how the Democrats have lost this election. And it's still three days away.
Here's how you write about 2020, to be balanced (IMHO):
Numerous Republicans have questioned the outcome of the 2020 election. The election however, was certified and the results accepted. Critics have stated that the Republicans have not produced any evidence, and that the burden of proof is on them. This is true, but it should also be pointed out that in the majority of cases the states sued to block even simple investigative procedures such as audits, and the courts ruled on merit and standing in the vast majority of the cases, precluding any attempt to produce evidence, even when specific examples or charges were made. In some cases, precincts destroyed records contrary to state and federal laws, and in other cases claim that the records were misplaced and therefore weren't available at that time for an audit. In a few cases audits did turn up discrepancies, however, the number of discrepancies at this time do not appear to be enough to have changed the outcome of the elections.
In further development, the Republicans have won a number of cases the past two years invalidating the changes the protested in 2020. In at least some cases, Democratic Sec of States have ignored these rulings, most notably in Michigan and Pennsylvania, requiring the courts to step in again and assert that the precincts have to follow the courts rulings.
Additionally, some states, most notably Georgia, enacted laws to address the changes made in 2020. Critics have responded saying these laws are to restrictive and are attempts to diminish minority voting. Proponents respond that the changes in 2020 were done without legislative input and that these changes violated Georgia law at the time. Further, they point out the fact that these changes actually expand early voting, and allow, well restricting, the number of ballot drop boxes (which were not allowed by law, despite their widespread use in 2020). They also point to the fact that during the primary and early voting period for the general elections, minority voting has actually increased, rather than decreased. Some reporters who have spoken to minority voters in Georgia quote voters as saying that the process is actually easier than before, and they're not sure what the big deal was.
With four days it remains to be seen if 2020 will repeat itself, or that Democrats message that Republicans are a unique threat to Democracy helps them, but current polling doesn't appear promising. We'll see what happens Nov. 8th (and likely 9th, 10th, 11th...).
Addendum: several Republican lawyers have lost or are facing discipline for their charges in 2020, and for failing to provide evidence as they insisted they had. However, most of these disciplinary charges have been filed in traditionally blue states and Republicans have charged that they were politically motivated and point to the fact that similar charges were not rendered against a number of Democratic lawyers who pushed the now mostly discredited Russia dossier and hoax in 2016.
Just want to be fair.
Incorrect; Most were dismissed on piddly wrong jurisdiction claims.
You're right I meant to state not on merit
"Piddly wrong jurisdiction claims", lol.
So, you admit the cases weren't ever ruled on merit but on jurisdiction but deny that that's a piddly reason for the courts to not hear the cases? Yeah. Figures. You have to resort to derision rather than make a substantive argument.
The idea that jurisdiction claims are "piddly" was the amusing part. Jurisdiction is absolutely critical for any court's ruling to have any legitimacy. A court which rules without having jurisdiction is effectively usurping the authority of the court which has jurisdiction, which is one reason why assessing and arguing jurisdiction properly is one of the first considerations of any good lawyer deciding where to file a lawsuit.
Federal courts' jurisdiction is limited by the Constitution (and in turn, by federal statute), so if they exceed their jurisdiction they would be violating the Constitution. Do you still think jurisdiction is only a "piddly" concern?
A lot of attorneys have been threatened too. The bottom line is that America can’t be free if the democrat party continues to exist. It has to go. Period.
Leftard election fraud claims....
1) Russia advertising
2) Popular Vote (Oh wait; that's not what LEGAL elections are)
3) Multiple voters and illegal voters must count fraud
4) Dead people voters must count or its fraud
5) Checking Authentication and re-running counts is fraud
Right-Wing election fraud claims....
1) A 90% disparity between in-person to mail-in votes in same locale.
2) Last second executive manipulation of election law
3) Canadian based vote counting equipment with a Board of Directors entirely part of a "Green Energy" lobby.
4) Foreign IP addresses getting access to those machines.
Well; Starting from the beginning. Mail-in voting was validated by it's direct equivalency to IN-PERSON voting so obviously it's validation is dismissed.
If the powers that be gave even a speckle of care about these fraud claims tearing the USA apart they'd cancel mail-in voting and put a multitude of independent tracking and counting companies at the voting booths...
For F'Sakes the last time I voted I got yelled at for trying show my State Issued Photo ID card. All they wanted was a power bill.
Exactly how does a power bill track legal voting rights?
Nobody asked me for ANYTHING when I registered and voted in the state I currently live in. I didn't even have to show proof of residency, let alone proof of identity.
Which state was that?
A blue one I’m sure. It crimps the graveyard vote.
It's been a thing since the first GWB election. Al Gore and Democrats pulled the fraudulent/illegitimate president thing and it's basically been a thing since.
But it's different and worse when Republicans do it. Why? FYTW.
Well, it's certainly different when the loser refuses to concede he lost the election. Has Trump conceded?
Where is that a required step? Did the transfer if power occur or not? Pointinf out irregularities didn't stop that transfer. Fraudulent votes do effect that transfer if causing a change of outcome.
I didn't say it was a "required step", but it certainly made it "different", which was the what the question had asked.
He conceded when he left the office on the appointed day at the appointed time instead of going out in a blaze of glory while taking down Biden and half the White House.
Hayes... the crooked 1876 prohibitionist fanatic usurper was Rutherford B Hayes with his lemonade harridan. So long as the 1971 Nixon anti-libertarian subsidies for looters persist, no election will be remotely honest. But what do you expect from two subsidized, force-initiating looter gangs?
More ranting and raving from you?
Grant — Hayes = 50!
It makes me warm and fuzzy when libertarians argue that we should accept the legitimacy of the government without question.
At the root of the problem is the piss-poor way in which American elections are carried out. In fact, election procedures in the US are so shoddy that claims of fraud are quite plausible.
It would be easy to address these concerns: single day voting, paper ballots, voter ID, elimination of vote-by-mail, clear chain of custody, public and recorded vote counting, rejection of all invalid ballots and abandonment of the "voter intent" standard.
You know, like other democracies hold their elections.
But the simple fact is that Democrats and progressives like the uncertainty that surrounds the elections even when they don't engage in outright fraud or election manipulation. And that's why this won't change. And, of course, people are used to these shoddy procedures now and don't question them. Viz this article.
Yeah, it's always funny when proggies say we need to be more like Europe, and you ask them if that means abortions banned after 12 weeks, only 10% of high school graduates, purely based on test scores and GPA, get to go to the university, strict voter ID laws, etc.
Oh and some new ones. Didn't close schools, banned face masks in schools, many European countries (and not just the so called authoritarian leaning states they love to ridicule) are now severely restricting or recommending against "transitioning" treatment for minors.
Restricting access to COVID vaccines for males under 40 (or both sexes) almost none recommending it for kids under 18. I mean the list keeps going on and on. The so called progressive Europeans countries have a lot of policies that American progressives would consider "regressive".
its all a sign that progs here have went full on "hold me beer" on the most retarded prog shit.
They are making the socialist Euro countries seem like the rational middle ground. Maybe that was their strategy?
Some Scandinavia countries have mandatory military service on turning 18, for men only, I think. This would definitely make the soft hands crowd have a breakdown -not the mandatory service requirement, the actual service.
Europe introduced conscription in the west (French Republic during the 1780s and England with impressment for the Navy), practiced it for the next two centuries. Most western European countries practiced conscription until the late 1990s.
Hank Ferrous and soldiermedic76
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-mandatory-military-service
Norway: "19 months (12 months plus 4-5 refreshers) for males and females aged 19-44 (18-55 in wartime). However, more than 80% are released from service."
Sweden: "7.5 months (Army), 7-15 months (Navy), or 8-12 months (Air Force) for males and females aged 18-47, after which they become reserves until age 47. However, only a portion of those who register are selected for service"
Denmark: "4-12 months training required for men at age 18. No immediate service required, but soldier remains eligible for further conscription until age 50"
France's abolition of National Service is a recent thing. Both of my French cousins (why I have French cousins is a story for a different time) did it in the early 1980s, one in the "Paras" (tough guy). A couple of other French acquaintances did theirs in the late sixties, one in the "Paras" (another tough guy) the other by teaching high school math in Tunisia (a conscientious objector).
But as a side note, impressment for the Navy was never exactly legal in England. It was one of those grey areas of law that allowed "press gangs" to essentially kidnap teenagers and young men into Naval Service. By the time any of them had any chance to "complain to the authorities" the ship had sailed.
Oh, by the way, can you imagine how "more than 80% are released from service" or "only a portion of those who register are selected for service” would fly with those who are "selected for service” in the USA's litigious environment?
I'm kinda guessing it would be about the same as the how being "put on a waiting list", "denied a consultation with a specialist" or "being denied treatment" would fly with grievance minded Americans if the USA were to adopt a system like the NHS or Canada's Medicare.
Thanks for the data. When I said 'I think,' it would have been more accurate to say, I hadn't checked current requirements. I served overseas w/ folks from France, Belgium, Norway, Denmark. I went to school, HS and post secondary w/ folks from Scandinavian countries. I am not necessarily a proponent of mandatory service, but service, and not at a local level, does 'diversify' one's experiences. I think Soldiermedic & I may have tossed around the CCC vs military, or perhaps Peace Corps for the adventurous & capable of leaving social media behind for a while. Again, perhaps not as a requirement, but I see some positive aspects to the (reereeree!) Heinlein Starship Troopers concept that citizenship suffrage rights are earned. There are certainly indicators that individual responsibility is not valued greatly by politicians, media, entertainers, and many of the populace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
"In the United States, military conscription, commonly known as the draft, has been employed by the U.S. federal government in six conflicts: the American Revolutionary War, the American Civil War, World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. The fourth incarnation of the draft came into being in 1940, through the Selective Training and Service Act. It was the country's first peacetime draft.[1] From 1940 until 1973, during both peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the U.S. Armed Forces that could not be filled through voluntary means."
"During the Civil War, there were notable critics against the policy of conscription. For example, Frederick Douglass, an escaped slave and abolitionist strongly advocated against the policy. More specifically, Douglass asserts, "What is freedom? It is the right to choose one's own employment. Certainly it means that, if it means anything. And when any individual or combination of individuals, undertakes to decide for any man when he shall work, where he shall work, at what he shall work, and for what he shall work, he or they practically reduce him to slavery.""
Let’s have a discussion about voter ID and see which party favors fraudulent elections.
According to democrats, 25% of blacks don’t have picture ID and are racially incapable of obtaining one. But republicans are racist.
I actually like election interference better, I find it a more representative term.
Fuck off you evil proggie cunt. Funny how election denial wasn't a problem when only Democrats engaged in it and pushed fraud enabling measures but suddenly it's super bad until the next time Democrats engage in such.
So, yet another column concerning "claims of fraud".
But not a word about the actual fraud. We are, as usual, being led away from the issues we should be facing.
There is fraud in EVERY election. Period. No, it's not good, and our fearless leaders should be targeting the fraud, instead of trying to distract us away from it. Has there been enough fraud to change elections results? There's no way to know, without investigation. Recounts are NOT an investigation. Recounting fraudulent votes does not eliminate them. Court ruling are not an investigation. Have the media encouraged, or even engaged in investigation? Not hardly.
Voter roll purges have been an "issue" for decades. These purges typically consist of dropping from the rolls anyone who has not voted nor responded to mail inquiries for a period of six years. This does not eliminate them forever. At whatever point they decide to resurface, they can reregister. Democrats have the balls to call this "voter suppression". So, in EVERY election dead people vote. In every election, people vote multiple times in multiple precincts. This is KNOWN. Yet, pretty much all we're hearing is about "false claims of fraud." In fact, we are rarely told what those "false" claims are, or how they have been proved to be false.
Ted Kennedy famously said, "Tell a lie enough times, and it becomes the truth." He was lying, of course. The correct quote is, "Tell a lie enough times, and it's still a lie. But mentally lazy fools will believe it, because all they really want is to go along."
You are calling for the "investigation" of every election, based on nothing other than, "There’s no way to know, without investigation".
Sorry, but no. If you cannot manage to get even a single credible case of election fraud to trial in any court in the land, either the entire judicial system is engaged in a "vast leftwing conspiracy", or the allegations are totally meritless.
Fraud is not needed when the entire system is broken.
Posted originally in 2020 (Ms. Tenney was eventually rule the winner):
This local race in upstate NY is running on a razor's edge, with 12 votes separating the Republican challenger, Claudia Tenney, from her incumbent Democrat opponent, Anthony Brindisi (155,492 to 155,480) is a perfect example. The sides are in court, where a judge has halted counting and processing, "citing major issues".
On Election Day, Tenney led Brindisi by 28,422 votes. The incumbent congressman won more than 75 percent of absentees to narrow the gap.
A state judge blocking all eight counties in the 22nd Congressional District from certifying results in the race between Anthony Brindisi and Claudia Tenney. Among the major issues found:
[Judge] DelConte says lawyers still haven’t received final ballot-counts from a number of County Boards of Elections and he’s finding multiple counties have not followed state election law.
NY state allows people to vote in person even after they have mailed in a ballot, so the mail-in ballots of those people have to be located and rejected otherwise they may be counted twice.
Ballot rejected for whatever reason are supposed to have the reason written on the ballot by elections officials...they used sticky-notes instead, which fell off, so thousands of supposedly invalided ballots have to be reevaluated.
County boards are being opaque in their methods and cannot or will not satisfy the judge's requests for evidence to be presented:
E.g. "[The judge] began the review of affidavits in Oneida County where they came under scrutiny for once again, missing sticky notes. 100 of the estimated 1500-2000 affidavits submitted by the county were rejected by the Brindisi campaign. But these rejected ballots could not be identified in the five bins laid out in the courtroom."
E.g., "Madison County BOE commissioners submitted a spreadsheet with information, but [Judge] DelConte says he doesn't know if he can go off a spreadsheet alone."
E.g., "In Oneida, not only is it unclear why 8-10 ballots were objected to in the first place, but whether they were already counted."
E.g., "Brindisi took a lead of a few votes last week, only to see his advantage disappear after two counties said they had made tabulation errors."
Small tranches of "uncounted" votes are still being found.
E.g., "Chenango County informed a state judge it had discovered 55 early voting ballots that weren’t canvassed by the local board of election, and therefore weren’t included in the vote totals in the ultra-tight race between U.S. Rep. Anthony Brindisi, a Democrat, and his Republican challenger, former U.S. Rep. Claudia Tenney. The discovery of the uncounted ballots came a day after counties in the 22nd Congressional District reported what was supposed to have been their final vote totals to a state judge. Officials said 44 of the 55 found ballots were countable."
I think very few people would complain if they felt that the system was fair, impartial, transparent, uniform, and secure. If you get beat fair-and-square, you shake the other guys hand and say "good game" knowing you did your best. But evidence like the above makes everyone wonder if the playing field is level, if the rules are being followed, and if the "umpires" are fair, even-handed, and disinterested or even competent. No one wants to find out after the fact that the umpire who ran your last loss had bet big on the other team to win.
Even if there has been absolutely zero fraud, I'm sure no one involved will be satisfied with the results. How much faith do we have in this system?
More cynically, though:
With such a broken system, it is far from inconceivable that a biased election official could lose a few dozen ballots (to favor their preferred candidate(s)), or to invalidate a few ballots here and there (to favor their preferred candidate(s)). If these transgressions are ever discovered, it's easy enough to blame it on "human error" and carry on.
With such a broken system, bunches of partisans can send in their mail-in ballots, then show up in person to vote and maybe get their votes to count twice. They can say "we were told it was ok, and the system would not count our earlier vote" if such efforts were ever detected.
With such a broken system, simply flooding the system with mail-in ballots that cannot be properly managed by the overwhelmed BOE officials--even if they are as honest and impartial as humans can be--minor frauds like a mail-in ballot sent to a dead cat might be returned by some partisans thinking "hey, they sent it to me, I might as well return it." can get overlooked. If discovered, these will be swept away rather than accumulated as evidence of fraud..."It was just one ballot cast by a dead cat, hardly evidence of widespread fraud." Which may be true, but how many dead-cat ballots went out and came back? No one will even know because no one is ever allowed to audit the records.
Having said all this, do not be disheartened! Be vigilant in getting your vote cast whenever it is called for, and keep fighting for better systems that will restore our trust in their results.
With a clown parade like the one you describe at the start of the comment, even if there has been absolutely zero fraud, how would anyone even be able to tell that there wasn't?
Paper ballots?
I share your sense of disgust at the fiasco that this NY race showed. The job of local election officials is to have procedures in place to make sure that all votes are accurately counted and that everything is properly accounted for in case of disputes. Ballots being ‘found’ well into the counting process is unacceptable. Not knowing whether a ballot was counted is unacceptable. Not being able to explain why a ballot was rejected is unacceptable.
I think very few people would complain if they felt that the system was fair, impartial, transparent, uniform, and secure.
This is where the problem arises, though. Your statement is reasonable, on its face. But it depends on how people “felt” about the system, not about what evidence there is of bias or fraud in the system.
An athlete with a reasonable sense of sportsmanship, will accept losing and shake the hand of their opponent. But not all fans are reasonable. Some will continue to whine about refs or umpires or dirty play from the other side no matter what video shows, or they will even interpret a video very differently than a neutral party would.
No one wants to find out after the fact that the umpire who ran your last loss had bet big on the other team to win.
All elections are run at the top by partisans. County Supervisors of Elections or County Clerks and secretaries of state are all elected positions. Partisan legislatures write the laws that govern elections and draw the district boundaries and governors sign or veto that legislation. Election boards at the state and local level are made up of partisans, though usually even numbers from both parties. State and federal judges that settle disputes are appointed by elected leaders, confirmed by partisan legislatures, and state judges are often elected, either directly or with retention votes some amount of time after being appointed.
What we have here are umpires that we know have a preference on what the outcome will be. Discovering after the game that they bet on it isn’t the right analogy.
Removing these obvious potential sources of bias would require something that politicians are unlikely to ever agree to unless the mass of voters of all parties demand it. I would suggest that bipartisan commissions, with each party* being equally represented, be charged with hiring non-partisans to run elections. Demand that commission decisions be by majority or supermajority, so that one side doesn’t get to control the outcome.
Ultimately, what we really need are for the overwhelming majority of voters to demand that elections be run fairly. Where ‘fairly’ is defined based on facts, not ‘the election is fair when my side wins’. And these voters need to make that a non-negotiable for any candidate for any office.
If we want honest politicians, then we can’t vote for dishonest ones. No “lesser of two evils” calculations. That is why politicians are so distrusted. Too many voters tolerate those in their party that are not trustworthy or rationalize away reasons to distrust them because no one on the other side is acceptable. When we support bad candidates, all that does is further convince voters with opposing views that our side can’t be trusted with power, so they will support anyone that can beat us. That reinforces our own view that the other side can’t be trusted with power, so we will support anyone that can beat them, and the feedback loop of shit candidates continues.
Supporting democracy ahead of partisan preferences demands that voters be willing to lose. I prefer a system of government where democracy is always supported above anything else. Then, if the outcomes of government policies are bad, then we will be able to elect different people to run government.
*Minor parties and independents could still be represented on these commission in various ways. They could get their own choices for the commission if they have enough seats in the respective legislative body, for instance.
a big source of the problem is mail in ballots. the main in system is so ripe for fraud and error that it's unacceptable. we need to return to an actual election day where we all went to a polling place and cast our votes. with all votes counted on the day of the election. the concept of early voting and even voting after the election is simply retarded. so sane person can support these policies.
Spot on, Bonnie.
Already running interference for the Soros funded "fortification" op, I see.
Odd that Reason.com should find themselves on the same side with public sector and postal worker's unions...
ANOTHER crybaby MAGA butthurt loser? How many of these has the Klan hired to pester us?
ANOTHER crybaby leftist Soros drone butthurt loser? How many has the CCP hired to pester us?
You belong in hospice.
Hank you very much
Hanks for the memories. Which always bring a tear to my eye. So pardon me while I reach for my Hanky.
TL;DR but
...as well it should.
This may be worth a read: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/milwaukee-election-commission-official-kimberly-zapata-fired-after-fraudulently-requesting-military-ballots-mayor-says/ar-AA13Hwlm
Now I see the juvenile, dishonest fuck Sarc is busy responding to everyone of my posts after I muted him. And he accused others of being a troll, yet here he is being the biggest douche troll around.
This will be my last comment acknowledging Sarc exists. Let him play his dishonest, trollish games since he can't have an honest discussion. It's always everyone is picking on me, Trump, evil Republicans. I tried, I really did, but it's just to much fucking hassle.
He’s such a drunken cunt.
There is a way to more or less eliminate claims of election fraud. All they need to do is pass laws and implement procedures to make fraud difficult and easier to detect.
In my state, for the 2020 election, they introduced a new policy that made if illegal for poll workers to ask for any identification. You show up, give a name from the published list of registered voters, and you get to vote.
That apparently not being enough, the same folks are trying to eliminate signature verification on mail in ballots.
The only reason that someone would work so hard to make cheating easy is if they intend to cheat.
Beyond that, we are now being told that we should not expect to know results on election night. The only reason to do that is so that you know how many votes you need to "discover" to win.
There is always some fraud in elections. What is particularly offensive to me is that the democrats have decided on a strategy of relying on their influence in the media to make sure that news reports are always on message with the DNC. If a republican wins, the election is illegitimate. If a democrat wins, it is the cleanest election in history, and anyone who questions it is a traitor.
If a democrat wins, it is the cleanest election in history, and anyone who questions it is a traitor.
Ron DeSantis was very vocally proud of how clean and efficient the 2020 election was in Florida. Yet, under his leadership, the state legislature still voted to enact 'reforms' that got voting rights advocates upset. His special election police have, so far, made a show of charging 20 people with illegally voting that had convictions that permanently disqualify them from voting, but those prosecutions had even some of the cops arresting those people wondering wtf was going on.
As far as I have been able to tell, all of them had been given voter registration cards. But if someone doesn't lie on their voter registration form, then how is it right to prosecute someone for voting illegally after the state told them that they could? Florida law requires county officials to send voter registration information to the state for verification, and it is the state that is supposed to flag registrations for ineligibility due to criminal records. The whole thing looks like an effort to intimidate felons from exercising their restored rights. "Make a mistake in your eligibility to vote, and we'll arrest you and throw you in jail again!"
So how many people actually stole the ballots of those people on the register, in your state?
That kind of fraud should be fairly easy to detect. Presumably, unless none of the people whose ballots had been stolen ever showed up to vote, the alarm bells would have been sounded immediately. What's that figure? Was it enough to change the result of the election?
So how many people actually stole the ballots of those people on the register, in your state?
You're doing it wrong. You are taking the claims of how easy it is to engage in fraud like it was a testable hypothesis. Then you follow that hypothesis toward what would be expected to happen if it was true and ask if that is what is observed. That kind of evidence based reasoning is not how we are supposed to decide whether our elections are secure. It should be based entirely on whether we feel like they are. If we are disappointed in the results, and our preferred candidate is claiming that it was fraud that caused him to lose, then that is enough to doubt the security of our elections even if the claims of fraud go absolutely nowhere in courts.
When they publish the voter roles, they include data on which recent elections the person has voted in.
If you give a name of a registered voter who has not voted recently, you are probably not going to be caught.
If you vote early, and the person whose name you are using actually votes, they will just be told that the record shows that they already voted.
I guess the safest way is to do a bunch of fraudulent registrations. That is made easier because it can be done by mail, and you need only give the last four of your social security number (which is not checked), and claim to be living in the state. You don't have to prove residence. You can even put down the general location where you sleep as a homeless person.
You do have to give a mailing address for your voter registration card to be sent, but that address can be anywhere, and you do not need the card to vote.
Nobody knows how many people do this.
Another bad faith both sides argument. Every election has problems. For decades we have criticized money in politics. Does that mean we think elections are not legitimate? Of course not. Those critiques were designed to rally people to change laws. Likewise, up til 2016 Democrats complained about voter purges, limited access to voting locations in inner cities and so on. But it was limited to complaints designed to change laws.
2020 was on a different level all together and it is disingenuous to lump all this in. Trump explicitly made up claims. He could have argued that the loosened absentee voter processes were not fair, much the same way Dems have been arguing that voter ID laws are unfair. And never before has anyone rallied people to use violence to obstruct the transition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisruptJ20
Nowhere in that wikipedia article did it say anything about violence. Unless you count as violent a couple hundred people linking arms to try to block a security checkpoint. There was a photo of a person burning a MAGA hat the night before the inauguration, so maybe that's what you're trying to equate to Jan. 6, 2020?
But the main thing: the inauguration is literally just a ceremony. (Perhaps you want to talk about the millions of dollars of foreign money that went to the inauguration committee to buy influence?) I don't see any evidence in that article that DisruptJ20 had any significant impact on the ceremonial aspect of the inauguration, let alone the actual transition of power.
Asking people to "Peacefully and patriotically" demonstrate is not asking them to be violent. J6 would have been just a demonstration if there had been decent crowd control.
There were some nutjobs in there, but with a crowd of more than 100k, there will be. Most of the people there entered through open doors, took some selfies, and went home.
The idiots left the capital on their own, the glass was swept up, and the vote resumed.
A crowd of similar size had much more tragic results last week in South Korea.
No matter what happened on J6, it was going to be called an insurrection.
disrupt J20, had a stated goal of "Planning to shut down the inauguration, that's the short of it ... We're pretty literal about that"
An important detail of J20 is that their planned actions were heavily scaled back after recordings of their planning meetings were leaked.
An important detail of J20 is that their planned actions were heavily scaled back after recordings of their planning meetings were leaked.
Been following the trial of the Oath Keeper leadership? If their communications had been publicized prior to Jan. 6, what do you think that would have done? Kind of hard to think that it was just some people going through doors to take selfies after reading that.
Asking people to “Peacefully and patriotically” demonstrate is not asking them to be violent.
By the way, he also said that they would need to fight or they wouldn't have a country anymore. After the violence had been going for some time, instead of calling for peace and calm, he tweeted about Mike Pence not doing the right thing. About 15 minutes later, he tweeted again to "stay peaceful", but it obviously didn't do anything, as violence continued for hours after that. Trump finally made a video telling the rioters how much he loved them and knew how they felt, but they need to go home now. The building was secured about two hours after that.
"Trump finally made a video telling the rioters how much he loved them and knew how they felt, but they need to go home now."
And look where that got him. A one way ticket to palookaville.
Republicans banned ALL birth control and writings about same in 1873, while several unreconstructed Dem states were kept out of elections. Samuel Tilden then beat prohibitionist Hayes by over 288,190 popular votes and 19 electoral votes. By naked fraud and coercion the Gee-Oh-Pee let the Klan retake the South and put Lemonade Lucy in the Executive mansion. After Tricky Dick got congress to use the IRS to subsidize Kleptocracy candidates, election fraud has been the rule with rare exceptions. None see this better than libertarians.
Another edition of ‘obscure history’ from senile old Hank.
No one gives a fuck Hank. You are not now, nor ever, a part of the discussion. Now fuck off.
I belong to a local book club. We have a club secretary position that is voted for every 2 months. The person collecting and counting the votes is never one of the nominees. This is basic common sense in any election. In contrast, the wealthiest, most powerful country on earth has the people with the biggest interest in influencing an election's outcome, also managing and conducting the election. That's a recipe for fraud and malfeasance. You don't have a problem with individual electoral fraud but you do have a problem with State and even County administrators managing electoral rolls and conducting elections when they have a self interest in the outcome. T's not about ballot stuffing or voting machines or even spurious claims. Your problem is that your elections are fundamentally untrustworthy. Get it together America and fix your system, so that elections are managed at arms length from those with an incentive to cook the books.
And where do we find angels in the form of men to conduct the elections, all while dancing on the head of a pin? Everyone has a stake in the outcome. That's why you make the rules clear in advance, and you don't get to change them at the administrative level until it is approved by the state legislature. Except for 2020 of course, there was a pandemic!
It was always a lie and they knew it. That is the message coming from Rep. Dan Crenshaw (R-Texas).
What we really need to do is to make politicians put up or shut up regarding any claims doubting the outcome of elections. If a candidate or party that loses an election makes claims about fraud or voting rights violations or Russian troll farms tainting the outcome, then we simply should assume that they are sore losers unless and until they have evidence that doesn’t get laughed out of court. Show some skepticism. Don’t buy what self-interested politicians say about the legitimacy of elections if they can’t back it up with something verifiable.
Despite agreeing that this article attempts to paint a false equivalence between statements by Democrats in recent years versus Trumpist rantings about a stolen election leading to Jan. 6, at least I do agree that what the article lists that Democrats have said and done are just rhetoric that shouldn’t be taken seriously. If Stacey Abrams had evidence that Kemp’s office purged eligible voters illegally or with intent to disenfranchise them, then let her prove it in court. If there is reason to think that such voter roll purges could be abused, then push for changes to the law that would make cleaning up voter rolls more rigorous while also less subject to politics. That should be something everyone could agree one.
Now apply the same skepticism and reasoning to claims of massive voter fraud. Prove it with prosecutions. Show that your attempts to change the law to improve security are both necessary and will still respect the rights of eligible voters, rather than cynical attempts to put obstacles in the paths of voters likely to vote for the other side.
Basically, we need to make politicians prove that they really do care about democracy more than they care about winning.
What we really need to do is cleanse this country of the left. That would solve most of our problems.
Russia did that, going as far as shelling the parliament with tanks, with Clinton and every other American politician cheering them on. It didn't solve most of their problems.
"That should be something everyone could agree one. "
Everyone except the politicians and law makers, who benefit from the current system.
I think smaller, more representative constituencies might help, making the elections less about a contest between two partisan behemoths, and more about the quality and character of the individuals running. Lessening the influence of money might help too. Now it costs the winners over ten million $US on average to win a seat in the house, more for senators, and more still for presidents.
I think smaller, more representative constituencies might help, making the elections less about a contest between two partisan behemoths, and more about the quality and character of the individuals running.
I don't think going smaller would really help. (I'm assuming you mean decentralizing government more, the federal government doing less, and even state governments leaving more decisions to local governments.)
Local politics just doesn't get people's attention the same way that national politics does. That is because local politics really is more about details than statewide and national government. It requires more knowledge of what is going on, who the power brokers behind the scenes are, and so on. And the local newspapers that cover that stuff have really gone down in readership.
Lessening the influence of money might help too.
Totally. People defending the status quo (when their side benefits from it) will find the few cases where the winning candidate spent substantially less than the loser, as if those exceptions disprove the role of money from billionaires and special interests. But the main problem is how the ability to raise money is placing a large ante on a campaign before you can even get started.
"But the main problem is how the ability to raise money is placing a large ante on a campaign before you can even get started."
And even winners aren't relieved of the pressures, degradations, and corruptions of fund raising. Even in office, effort is put into fund raising because the next election is always just round the corner.
"(I’m assuming you mean decentralizing government more, the federal government doing less, and even state governments leaving more decisions to local governments.)"
That wasn't really what I had in mind, though I don't disagree with what you're saying here. I still think there is an important role for federal government. It's necessary if a large number of people are to share sovereignty and move together to pursue common goals. If you want to get the entire planet mobilized, the federal government won't be big enough, and you'll need to step up to world government.
It's Big Lie vs. "Big Lie". First you cheat, then the other side complains that you cheated, then you accuse them of a propaganda campaign to make people think you cheated. Being sure to arrest anyone who asks for the election to be investigated as a "threat to democracy".
Democrats claimed that the presidential elections of 2000, 2004. and 2016 were stolen (and still do). Congressional Democrats challenged the certification of electoral votes after all three elections. Nobody seemed to care much about any of this.
And then Donald Trump and the Republicans did the same in 2020, and all of a sudden it becomes the gravest threat to America in its history. The Democrats and their media stooges go completely apeshit. When confronted with their own long history of "election denialism", they pathetically claim, "It's different when we do it," because they're shameless hypocrites, and that's what shameless hypocrites do.
At least this post worries that claims of election theft will cease to have meaning (to which one might reply, "So what?"), rather than the usual histrionic, ludicrous complaint that claims of election theft will be the end American democracy (though only when Republicans do it, of course).
So long as all baseless election fraud claims continue to get thrown out, the system is working.
Then ask yourself why Democratic politicians fight election integrity so hard, when even their rank and file party members support election integrity?
Dems are shameless partisans, just like Repubs.
Why is this news to you?
Then ask yourself why Democratic politicians fight election integrity so hard, when even their rank and file party members support election integrity?
Maybe because "election integrity" doesn't mean the same thing to Republican politicians as it does to Democratic Party voters?
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Solution is easy..vote the day of the election in person with a photo ID. Unless you have a damn good reason to get an absentee ballot like overseas deployment in the military. Go back to mechanical voting machines that can't be hacked. End of story.
Voting is a right, not a privilege.
Go back to mechanical voting machines that can’t be hacked.
You mean you want to go back to this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida
Yeah, that's what we need in our elections. More fodder for late night comedians to talk about hanging chads.
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Here in Austin, "early voting" has been going on at a nearby government office building for a couple of weeks. I takes this to mean that the next governor will be Robert Francis O'Rourke, even if all 2 million voters in Austin (population just under 1 million) have to vote for him.
Normalizing the hyperbole is a path we should not take? Corrupting the language in order to harness it to your culture wars? Who is this "we" to whom you refer? I have never questioned the outcome of an election and will not without substantial objective evidence. If you think you can stop the MAGA republicans or the snowflake culture warriors from pursuing this course by expressing your opinion in "Reason," good luck widdat! The winners tell jokes and the losers cry, "Deal!" At this point the language has been so corrupted for so long that even the corruptions have been corrupted. My high school English teacher is no doubt rolling in her grave between the words taking on new meanings even in the Oxford Dictionary; and the words one is no longer allowed to utter without losing your job or your family.
Look on the bright side. Norman Mailer, 1948, I believe, had to change his fucks to fugs to get his debut novel published. (The Naked and the Dead - WWII stuff). Obscenity laws have become a lot more lax since then. Though the pendulum has turned apparently and censorious times have returned. Cromwell (1648) went as far as closing the theatres and banning Christmas, so we still have a ways to go yet before the pendulum swings the other way.
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All true except your premise.
There can be real fraud and not real fraud.
Your 'solution' increases fraud
"Groundless" my ass!!
I think the main reason I loathe Libertarians is their hubris and selfishness. They will let a complete fool like Biden have a freer hand rather than let the Republican candidate be elected without
their termite erosion of the vote.
I have watched Politics for 40 years and Biden is the laziest and stupidest of the lot.
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It’s easy to make the claim that the opposing accusations are groundless when you’re on the side of censoring, banning, erasing and deplatforming them.
None of the evidence of election fraud ever went to court. The courts wouldn’t allow it.
Vote Fraud:21 confirmed illegalities, irregularities from 2020 election
http://crimeresearch.org/2022/07/vote-fraud21-confirmed-illegalities-irregularities-from-2020-election/
Courts Finally Admit Election Irregularities after Stonewalling Trump
http://headlineusa.com/courts-admit-voting-irregularities/
THE CHAIRMAN’S REPORT OF THE ELECTION LAW
STUDY SUBCOMMITTEE
OF THE STANDING SENATE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
SUMMARY OF TESTIMONY FROM DECEMBER 3, 2020 HEARING
Honorable William T. Ligon, Chairman
“V. FINDINGS
1- The November 3, 2020 election was chaotic and the results cannot be trusted.
http://citizenwells.substack.com/p/election-fraud-irregularities-and
One of the reasons we know the 2020 election was illegitimate is that Joe Biden’s results had no down ballot success, a statistical improbability because of what we know about political science, behavior psychology, and down ballot participation rates. In fact, not one House Republican incumbent lost. House Republicans actually gained 14 seats in 2020.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/coup-team-biden-bragged-rigging-brazil-election-president-bolsonaro-election-day-says-stop-steal-leader-ali-alexander/
Googles policy regarding what will be censored, banned, erased and deplatformed from ALL the websites it hosts.
“Election integrity: Content advancing false claims that widespread fraud, errors, or glitches occurred in certain past elections to determine heads of government. Or, content that claims that the certified results of those elections were false. This policy currently applies to:
Any past U.S. Presidential election
The 2021 German federal election
The 2014, 2018, and 2022 Brazilian Presidential elections
Keep in mind that this isn't a complete list.”
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/10835034?hl=en