It Should Be OK To Talk About Negotiating With Russia Over Ukraine
Progressives shouldn't be ashamed of being anti-war.

The first step toward ending a war is talking about ending a war.
This week, unfortunately, we learned that even starting that conversation is apparently off-limits.
On Monday, a group of 30 House Democrats sent a letter to President Joe Biden calling for the United States to negotiate directly with Russian President Vladimir Putin in the hopes of ending the war in Ukraine.
Less than 24 hours later, the lawmakers withdrew the letter, apologized for having sent it, and blamed the whole mess on a staffer.
What caused such an abrupt reversal? The letter sparked widespread condemnation from the writers' fellow Democrats, left-wing political strategists, and the foreign policy establishment. It was denounced as a ploy to boost Russian resolve in the face of ongoing Ukrainian advances on the battlefield and a gift to Putin. Sen. Chris Murphy (D–Conn.) called it a "moral and strategic peril" to even suggest negotiation with Putin. "Vladimir Putin would have signed that letter if asked," an unnamed House Democratic leader told Politico.
Based on the reactions and the hasty retreat, you might think that the letter writers had suggested that Ukraine immediately surrender and that America should give Russia whatever Putin wants in order to end the war.
Hardly.
In fact, the letter laid out a reasonable and grounded argument for why the United States should seek to end the war as quickly as possible. Even if nuclear weapons are never unleashed, a war that "is allowed to grind on for years" will displace and impoverish more Ukrainians and will wreak continued havoc on the world's food and energy supplies. In light of those dangers, the letter urged Biden to engage in "vigorous diplomatic efforts in support of a negotiated settlement and ceasefire" to ensure an independent Ukraine.
And contrary to what many of the reactions implied, the letter did not cut Ukraine out of the peace-making process. "It is America's responsibility to pursue every diplomatic avenue to support such a solution that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine," the letter reads. But the lawmakers also pointed out that America's contribution of billions of dollars of weaponry and support to Ukraine's cause "creates a responsibility for the United States to seriously explore all possible avenues, including direct engagement with Russia, to reduce harm and support Ukraine in achieving a peaceful settlement."
There is nothing wrong with any of that. And no one, perhaps least of all progressive Democrats, should be castigated for simply pointing out that diplomacy is essential to ending wars.
Does that mean negotiations with Putin are an ideal solution? Of course not. But the ideal outcome of the war in Ukraine went out the window the moment that Russian tanks rolled across the border.
You don't have to support any particular outcome in negotiations to admit that negotiations should be at least on the table. Yes, Russia should be forced to return the occupied territories that it now claims—the result of sham referendums last month—but the prospect of ending the war ought to be valued above everything else. That's not a concession to Putin, it's a concession to reality.
As the now-retracted letter put it: "The alternative to diplomacy is protracted war, with both its attendant certainties and catastrophic and unknowable risks."
The Biden administration's approach has been to defer to Ukraine when it comes to the question of negotiating with Russia. But Ukraine's interests are not necessarily identical to America's—even if they are aligned in many ways. And if the United States (and other countries) is going to spend public funds to finance the war, then it has a responsibility to its own citizens and taxpayers to consider. How much more is going to be spent? Outsourcing decisions about the war's end to Kyiv creates a potentially open-ended obligation, with diminishing benefits to Americans—except those working for defense contractors and weapons manufacturers.
Again, this week's backlash wasn't a negative response to any specific agreement for how the war would end—any such negotiation will have to be judged on its own merits—but merely against the concept of negotiating. That's insane.
"Clearly, the time to negotiate is not now. But it will come," Emma Ashford, a senior fellow at the Stimson Center (and a Reason contributor) wrote on Twitter. "And if every attempt to broach the topic, or to discuss the parameters under which the US might push for a settlement is shouted down, then we may miss or squander that opportunity when it does arise."
If we can't talk about how to end the war, the war won't end.
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Aren’t you glad you voted for Biden?
Bohem can you do an article about all the crap you were Wong about with that one? I mean all of the bs you are complaining about now was published on bidens website, so my only take away is that you are a retarded illiterate, or you agree with Biden. Which is is?
If he voted for democrats, he agrees with the democrats.
https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/
Bohem can you do an article about all the crap you were Wong about with that one?
If he did that, he might recover some sliver respectability.
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so my only take away is that you are a retarded illiterate, or you agree with Biden. Which is is?
Both
“Aren’t you glad you voted for Biden?”
Isn’t he glad about a tanking economy, raging inflation, people being paid with MY MONEY to sit on their asses, that wonderful bit of political theater in leaving Afghanistan, and much, much more?
Boehm, you OWN this, asshole.
Careful, Sarc will be along shortly to bitch and whine about being big meanies to Reason staff.
Yep.
The Left has been working toward war with Russia for a decade now. Anyone who voted for the Dems voted for the NATO Russian War.
That doesn’t make much sense. Isn’t Russia (whose soldiers are planting hammer and sickle flags and fighting Nazis and reviving Lenin statues throughout Ukraine) the godfather of the Left?
Give ’em a couple years. “We’re allies with Russia. We’ve always been allies with Russia”.
Xi wiz was he ever Wong! And I’m not just spouting something from 4Chan neitha!
It is not OK for the US to negotiate with Russia about a war we are not in.
What is there to negotiate?
A cease fire when we are not firing?
A prisoner exchange when we have no prisoners?
We can choose to stop resisting naked imperialist aggression with aid, but that is not negotiating, that is changing policy. (or surrendering, depending on your politics)
This. I’m curious what Mr. Boehm would suggest we do next when, the day after the U.S. and Russia work out a deal to “end” the war, the Ukranians keep on shooting like normal.
I’d say something about using diplomacy and leverage, but I’m sure the Biden regime can find a way to fuck up being Ukraine’s benefactor to the tune of over half their GDP.
Let us pause to consider that it was Boehm’s choice for President who gave Putin the greenlight to make a “minor incursion.” Oh sure, White House flunkies ‘walked back’ that ‘gaffe’ from the adult in the room, but the message was already sent.
It was sent because Biden saw Russia’s invasion as an easy way to clean up some of his and Hunter’s dirty laundry.
Now he’s been forced to pay off the Ukes because they have leverage over him.
The very same leverage that also prevents Biden from trying to end this on any terms not acceptable to the Ukes.
Now Boehm wants to pretend that he’s got this all figured out.
Adults in charge
LOL
Remind Zelensky that he’s a junior partner that would be dead in 2 weeks without US weapons.
Zelensky is a “junior partner” in Ukraine? That’s an interesting definition of sovereignty. I guess there’s not really a point in arguing it with you. The Russians tried arguing it with the Ukrainians and look where that got them.
They lost “sovereignty” the second they started accepting money and weapons from the US. I hope that government gets toppled tomorrow so ours can stop throwing my money at them.
That’s not what sovereignty means.
Sovereignty:
Noun
3. Complete independence and self-government.
They’re accepting American money and weapons, they would be completely overrun at this point without us, they aren’t independent: they no longer have sovereignty.
By that definition, no country which has ever signed a treaty with another country is “sovereign”, because they are no longer “completely independent”.
Nations can choose to leave treaties. Your argument is risible, as expected. Treaties are mutually beneficial, so the asserted ‘loss of independence’ in your argument is offset by the agreement to support between member nations. In the case of Ukraine, w/o US, EU support, they fall, and they provide nothing in return if they do not.
“They lost “sovereignty” the second they started accepting money and weapons from the US”
That is not what sovereignty means. And a sovereign nation can enter treaties, give money, accept money, and yes, exit treaties–all in its own name and of its own accord. None of those things affects that nation’s sovereign status.
What the OP and you appear to want is for the generally accepted definition of sovereignty to be adjusted to mean any nation which requests or accepts the assistance of any another nation is no longer sovereign. So if Ukraine is no longer “sovereign”, who is sovereign in Ukraine? The USA?
The moment the USSR takes over Europe it will point all of it’s guns to the USA,
But of course PuppeTrump wont tell you that about his boss…
The USSR? Taking over Europe? Trump? What fucking year do you think it is? Or are you having a stroke?
Yeah, not a very smart person, this one.
Since when do wokies make any sense?
“They lost “sovereignty” the second they started accepting money and weapons from the US.”
That is both moronic and ahistorical.
The US gained sovereignty through various acts of foreign aid.
I took that to mean junior partner in the business relationship with The Big Guy.
You’re a complete fucking idiot if you believe Ukraine is in any way sovereign.
Zelensky is a junior partner in any negotiation involving the US and Russia. Like I wrote, he’s dead without us.
There are a lot of Germans living in the Sudetenland. They want to be part of Germany, or at least they should want to. If we allow Mr. Hitler to take over in Czechoslovakia we will ensure peace in our time.
If Progressives want to make peace by offering up land, why not offer Putin the island of Oahu? It has better weather and probably there are at least a few Russians living there.
If Putin had a military as successful as Hitlers the conversation about appeasement wouldn’t even be taking place. Russia’s threat isn’t in taking territory, their threat is the largest nuclear weapons arsenal on the planet.
Such a stupid, superficial analogy.
But you repeat it like a good little totalitarian globalist.
How many javelin missiles have we supplied the Sudetenland with?
You mean s junior partner with blackmail material against him personally. How does that impact the calculus.
Who the fuck cares what the Ukrainians and Russians do?
Once the USSR dissolved, it was obvious we should seek better relations with the Russians so their nukes could point somewhere else, or at least their trigger fingers wouldn’t be quite so itchy.
Russia wanted better relations with Europe, and instead NATO just kept marching tanks closer and closer to Moscow.
Although yours is really just another “it’s all our fault” whinge, there have actually been many such agreements with Russia since the dissolution of the USSR. That Russia’s neighbors kept deciding they needed protection from Russia is hardly the West’s fault. It turns out, Russia’s potential invasion of its neighbors isn’t a wholly unfounded fear, is it?
In addition, Ukraine in particular gave up its nukes in part in exchange for Russia’s ultimately worthless assurances “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. Which sadly calls into question the utility of signing any agreement with Russia.
And yet the West rejected Russia when it tried to join NATO. That’s a good invitation to trouble, and trouble was where the relationship went.
Russia never made a request to join NATO.
This is yet another “it’s all our fault” whinge, with even less factual basis. Three guesses where it originated, lol.
Well, if we were doing what we should be doing at this point, we’d find a way to get both parties to the negotiating table. We do not (and probably should not) be the mediator ourselves. We just need to prod one party (Ukraine) to the table once a go-between gets Russia to the table. The mediator should be a completely neutral party.
But the USA IS fighting in Ukraine. Just like in Syria, Yemen and other places illegally.
And Progressive’s aren’t anti-war.they are warmongers just like the Conservatives.
Not according to my standards. Intelligence, equipment, and advice not rising quite to the level of “fighting” in my book. But I suspect Putin would argue otherwise. Though mostly out of convenience, not conviction. The USSR and Russia both having a long history of doing much the same with our adversaries.
Putin will be no more amenable to the US brokering a ‘peace’ in the Ukraine than we would have been with Russia brokering a settlement in Syria.
They’re all acts of war, and it’s surprising to me that the Russians have shown such restraint in fighting back.
I thought the same about Iran attacking the US by proxies in Iraq. If you send weapons to an active war zone, you’re engaging in war.
“They’re all acts of war, ”
No, they are not.
And what to negotiate? “Hey, you broke into my friend’s house. How about you keep the TV, the car, and he’ll let you live in the basement, and you don’t try to steal anything else for now?”
When the guy who broke into your house has enough nuclear weapons to end all life then yes, you do offer them that.
Apparently not.
Can you prove that he would not nuke all of us regardless?
What makes you believe that? Why hasn’t Putin nuked us earlier?
Klaus thanks you for your service.
What if the stuff he stole once belonged to him? And you honestly barely knew the homeowner and the situation that caused this. In fact, your “friend” is a corrupt douchebag who’ll cut you off at the heels if there’s a nickel in it for him? And you had to fund literal nazi militias to get the stuff back? And it meant possible nuclear Armageddon and or freezing and starvation for everybody else if you tried?
Where are you going with this?
I don’t like the government of Ukraine either, but this is a war where Russia is clearly the one in the wrong.
This was a naked war of conquest and everything else was a ridiculous pretense.
The negotiations are likely to start with “You go back to Russian borders, we don’t counter-invade, and everyone returns all the captured soldiers”. Then, they start from there about future interactions.
LOL
And there is no negotiation with a man with this kind of “Mission Creep”:
Claims Russian troops need to ‘de-Satanise’ Ukraine criticised – as ‘holy war’ comparisons made
https://news.sky.com/story/claims-russian-troops-need-to-de-satanise-ukraine-criticised-as-holy-war-comparisons-made-12731383q
First, Putin claims it’s a “special military operation” to fight Ukrainian Nazis…Until, of course, Putin started using the Neo-Nazi Wagner Group to do his dirty work.
Then, Patriach Kirill claimed that the “special military operation” was against LGBTQ+ Pride Parades and Putin went along…Evidently, Western Intel has yet to develop the pics of Putin and Kirill sitting in a tree…
Now, Putin’s spokespuppet claims that the “special military operation” is a “War Against Satan!” Well, isn’t that special…
The rep for The Church of Satan sounds like he’d be right at home with Libertarianism. #Lucifer2024 🙂
Russia and Ukraine were close to a negotiated settlement in February. Biden’s Neocons dispatched Bojo to meet with Zelensky and talk him out of it. Google it. Thousands now dead would still be around had the War Party stayed out of it. The Biden administration is openly telling us that they want this war to last as long as possible until Russia is broke. They don’t care how much blood and treasure is spent.
NATO is waging a proxy war against Russia, and will fight to the last drop of Ukrainian blood.
Er, nobody has ever “dispatched Bojo” to conduct any form of diplomacy anywhere, and thankfully nobody ever will.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-03-11/britain-johnson-response-ukraine-war-refugees-sanctions
Biden is definitely trying to derail any potential peace talks, and has been since spring.
I’m sure you know that the USA is blue on the east and west coasts and red in the middle. Maybe you didn’t know that Ukraine was blue in the East and red in the west. Our blues along with some red war hawks started pushing the Ukrainian blues to overthrow elections and cancel the Russian speaking and supporting half of the population in 2004.
“Progressives shouldn’t be ashamed of being anti-war.”
ROFL
“Progressive Democrats,” “democratic socialists,” “the Left” — call them whatever you want. The fact is they exist to serve the billionaire-friendly, neocon-approved, defense-contractor-enriching Democratic Party establishment.
#VoteDemocratForNeoconForeignPolicy
#LibertariansForProxyWars
#ProtectBidensMoneyLaunderingFacility
#ThatsWhatTheWarIsAllAbout
Have we forgotten the billions Hillary laundered through Russia, and that the Ukrainian president Bidet was laundering through was a Putin stooge?
If Russia is involved in anything, Russia is the bad guy. There may or may not be other bad guys, but Russia is always the bad guy.
They’re both corrupt shitholes.
Ignoring the fact you forgot your anti-psychotic meds, the whole “but Russia is always the bad guy” is not an ideological issue, it’s an empirical one. I guess you don’t even know what Poland is…
But sure, keep on your postmodernist “tRuTh iS rElAtIvE” bullshit, as long as you take your meds.
Nah, it’s an ideological issue. The Russians were useful for us during World War I and II. The West deserves to be criticized for its hypocrisy, because it’s guilty of many things it likes to point Russia for doing.
TV told you Russiamanbad, so Russiamanbad.
Hilarious how easily some of you are duped.
No, the people who lie about everything else are totes telling you the truth here, right?
When nobody in the vicinity if Russia likes, or even stands Russia, maybe Russians need to think long and hard why their country is so despised, instead of saying everyone else is intolerant and fascist.
This is the same Russia that installed Trump as President and hacked our elections or something, right?
I mean, if you’re a Progressive why wouldn’t you want to go to war with Russia in particular?
It’s a totally predictable outcome, although I guess Obama and Hillary get no credit for their totally-not-retarded ‘reset’ with Russia. Remember that picture of them pressing the symbolic reset button? No cringe there to be found, and it’s aged totally awesomely as long as we ignore everything that happened afterwards.
It says something that even Mitt Romney saw that this was stupid. Let that sink in a second.
IT WAS HER TURN!
Sad as it is, nobody seems to realize that sniping Putin would be both the quickest and cleanest way to stop the invasion, “who’ll put the bell on the cat” argument non withstanding.
Edit: forgot to add the name of John Von Neumann, maybe we shoud listen to the scientists for once?
Problem with removing Putin is the next guy may be even worse. Kinda like Biden is a real turd but Harris would still be a step in the wrong direction.
Killing Putin would unite Russia against us, when right now they are on the brink of a civil war. It’s telling that many of the potential people around whom an opposition could start were killed off.
If Putin is killed by a Russian, it will end the war. If he’s killed by someone outside, it will make it worse.
Democrats love to use “surgical” drone strikes and murder teams to take out threats.
The difference in consequences between doing this to ragheads with small arms and the head of a country with nuclear weapons is hopefully a lesson this country doesn’t want to learn. Good thing the adults are back in charge…
That isn’t a guarantee, at all. No one is sure who takes over, and they could be totally crazy. With control over that nuclear arsenal.
I understand that Republicans and Democrats don’t get it, but it’s a little surprising that Reason writers don’t get it! The reason Biden should not negotiate directly with Putin to end the war in Ukraine is that it’s not OUR war in Ukraine to negotiate! Reasonable people can argue over whether the United States government should be helping Ukraine repel Putin’s unjustified and cynical invasion of their country with weapons and intl, but there is no possible justification for us to get involved in any way officially or even secretly. If those same “progressives” had written a letter to the President any time in the last twenty years demanding that the U.S. government immediately withdraw our troops from the forty or more nations where they were engaging in military activities in the Global War on Terror then you could say they were “anti-war” but only a political partisan thinks progressive representatives chiming in now over Ukraine is a good idea.
MWAocdoc, kudos on a well-written and thoughtful comment! We need more of these around here!
And yet what we’ve done has only prolonged Ukraine’s war and gotten them more casualties.
Boehm, you just don’t get it. All this, that you reluctantly voted for. These 30 got cold feet, and then were told to toe the party line. Who knows why exactly. They may have had their places on committees threatened, and god forbid, they can’t stop their own gravy trains. So to stop any damage to themselves, they retracted their letter within 24 hours.
Why don’t you say what you really mean: “It should be OK to talk to Russia about Ukraine’s surrender”?
Exactly, but that would be admitting their allegiance to Putin, we can’t have his boot-lickers be honest, the baldy would be upset.
What makes you think negotiations would cause Ukraine to lose the war? Are you this shortsighted?
>>Progressives shouldn’t be ashamed of being anti-war.
lolz your universe is interesting.
Nobody should be ashamed of being anti-war. Who cares what party?
We don’t exactly have a good record on appropriate wars in this country. The last appropriate one being the Korean War with the Gulf War being reasonably debatable, although I would vote yes based on what I remember.
Regarding the 30, shear, gutless cowards.
So sad.
How much of another country’s freedom should we be willing to put on the table in this negotiation?
And, yes— progressives should be ashamed of this (and lots more).
On the one hand, Ukraine would not have any freedom if not for us at this point.
On the other hand, had Biden not fiddled while Ukraine burned in the first place, they would be in a much better place.
Of course, had Obama-Biden acted appropriately during their administration and had:
1. Not interfered in Ukraine’s elections which invited Russia’s attack and annexation, and
2. Actually took some significant action against Russia when it crossed their border, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
So now we are supposed to care deeply about a country which is now not much different than Russia.
Bottom line: The Russian threat to us overall is exaggerated. And when it comes to caring about Ukraine in the first place, I’m not feelin it.
It’s all fun & games & massive foreign aid until the nukes start flying.
Give up your life for Ukraine’s “freedom” (LOL) then
Just think about how much earlier WWII would have been over if we had negotiated with the Nazis while they were still occupying France.
Is that still on the table, cause the Nazi’s can have France.
Has anyone taken a serious look at Western Europe lately?
Other than the genocide and re-drawing of national borders the fascists won. Huge demonstrations against them notwithstanding.
And Europe is still very antisemitic.
PuTiN iS LiTerALlY HiTLeR!!! Your right though, with world war 2 as our guide we should get into a war that kills 73 million people to save Ukraine, a country nobody in the US gave a shit about until like 7 months ago. Totally worth it.
Some people named Biden gave a bank account of not a shit.
Follow the money.
Ukraine does produce some pretty hot pornstars.
We’re funding Nazis right now.
Progressives in this country have never been anti-war. That’s your first mistake. The only time anyone in Washington is “anti-war” is when their guy isn’t in the White House. In 2016, we dropped 24,171 bombs on seven different countries, along with propping up illegal wars in many more. No one on the left or in the media made a peep about it until Trump won the election, and then they started blaming it on him before he even took office.
This isn’t an endorsement of Trump. It’s simply a statement of fact. I would believe that they were anti-war, and not that they are pretending to be anti-war for other reasons now, if at any time in the last twenty years they had consistently been in opposition to war.
Yep
Anti-war protestors disappeared after Obama was elected. It’s only wrong when the other guy does it.
No, the Biden administration is not deferring to Ukraine on negotiations. There are very credible reports that in April, Ukraine wanted to negotiate with Russia, and were threatened with a complete cut-off of military and financial support by Biden’s handlers if they followed that path. Biden, Tori Nulands and many other neo-Liberal hawks have made it clear this war will not be allowed to end until there is regime change in Russia. Even if we have to go through a massive nuclear exchange to achieve that.
RT, Sputnik, TASS–those “very credible reports”?
What do you take for “credible” reports regarding this war? I hope you’ve noticed literally all of it has been propaganda and psi-ops.
There’s plenty of pretty good sources. The realclear sites (realclearworld, realcleardefense, realclearenergy) are aggregating analysis from a variety of perspectives and direct sources.
There is no shortage of actual info if you care to look. Course if you don’t care to look at anything other than your usual sources, then they are still there too.
There is no shortage of actual info if you care to look. Course if you don’t care to look at anything other than your usual sources, then they are still there too.
Not remotely true. There’s way more misinformation out there, and no, it doesn’t spring from Fox News.
Regardless of anything else, anyone who thinks it worthwhile to negotiate with a dictator who has already repudiated past promises deserves to be labeled a Chamberlain appeaser.
“negotiate with a dictator”
You talking about Putin or Biden? Last time I checked, the US has started more wars than Russia during Putin’s reign. I’m not sure our country has much moral authority to criticize Russia about war mongering.
The topic was negotiating with Putin. If you want to extend that to Biden, Obama, or George Washington, start your own conversation.
So nobody should negotiate with the US, according to your own standards.
“And you’re lynching Negroes!”
By that logic, our dog-eats.dog should become more relentless and Cancer Ball Z-ish over time. Not because the obvious Social Darwinism, but because if we allow stuff in the name of “fairness”, criminals will always get away.
One more thing, what wars has BIDEN started again, maybe you’re just salty over your hero Bin Laden being killed by a Negro you don’t care unless he’s a convenient argument…
Compared to who? Apart from Trump sticking half a toe in Syria and taking out that Iranian guy, Trump was the peace President.
Middle East flared up two seconds after Biden came to power and started funding terrorists again. I think it’s safe to say the timing of the Ukraine invasion wasn’t coincidental, either. Who knows what Afghan will do with its new toys thanks to Biden’s fuckery. Not to mention getting involved in Haiti (again). And who knows Where all of those weapons we’re supposedly selling to Ukraine will end up, after the Ukrainians sell them on the black market. China and NK are kind of waiting in the wings seeing just how quickly Biden can implode the rest of the country.
His ineptitude and corruption are setting the world on fire from what I’ve seen.
They’re not anti-war! Wtf are you talking about.
As several others have stated, this is basically none of our business. That should be justification enough to stay out of what is, for the most part, a USSR civil war that has been a long time in coming.
The Ukraine is not in NATO, not a significate trade partner, and not a strategic defense alley. People act like Ukraine under Zelenskyy are good guys. Problem is, that is only when compared to Putin; much in the same way one might consider Emperor Hirohito a decent enough fella when compared to Hitler.
What are the upsides to getting involved for the US? Little to none.
The downsides are huge… boycotts contributing to global inflation, increased risk of nuclear war, and the continuation of the taxpayer funded war machine.
I say let’s just stay out of it and let Germany take the reigns.
“‘The Ukraine is not in NATO, not a significate trade partner, and not a strategic defense alley.””
It’s a fix me up project the dems have been working on for years. They don’t want to give it up.
Nothing wrong with Progressives or anyone advocating for negotiations with Russia – what could be wrong with that compared more war. Of course that should NOT entail genuflecting to Putin nor ignoring that maybe just maybe Putin is a stone cold liar and killer – at some point even he SHOULD see a less costly way forward for everyone. The snag might well be Putin’s ego, no EGO. He apparently doesn’t have long to live and wants to place his mark as a “hero of Mother Russia” before he departs.
Isn’t it ironic, no IRONIC, that our Progressives routinely refuse to allow their infidels a chance to meet, speak and live in peace. Oh well what’s another dose of hypocrisy and hubris?
We’ll see how the midterms go. If the Rs win bigly Western Europe and the US will hand Putin the Ukraine on a silver platter and then blame the Rs. I saw a bit of that on Douche World News tonight. Highlighting Vance of Ohio stating the US needs to be concentrating on the problems here.
You’re welcome to go to Ukraine yourself, useful idiot.
You’re frothing again. I think a deep breath and a second read might reveal what he actually said.
Are you Russian? Or Byelorussian?
My comment was for Nardz
An edit button? Holy shit, the apocalypse is nigh.
That was a while ago. If the apocalypse came you would miss it;)
This article never mentions that in 2014 Putin grabbed Crimea AND a big chunk of Eastern Ukraine! And in 2008 Putin grabbed a chunk of the Republic of Georgia. ‘Negotiating’ with a serial killer is pure foolishness. There’s no chance it’ll do anything but encourage him to do more mass killing.
To be fair, it would have been a very long list. The 2022 war of aggression, the deliberate targeting and murder of civilians, not to mention threatening to use nuclear weapons if they continue to lose the war–there’s quite enough already to convict Vladoph Putler in any court of law.
Not that he’ll ever see the inside of a courtroom, of course.
The number of civilians dead after 10 months of war would actually be “most of them” if the russians were conducting a war of annihilation.
Who said he was “conducting a war of annihilation”? Genocide is a notoriously difficult allegation to prove.
However, the things I’ve cited above (if proven at trial) are entirely sufficient to justify Putin’s life imprisonment under existing international law.
Damn, tons of State Department bots in the comments.
Gotta keep the useful idiots cheering on the Leftist World Order world government I guess.
I have to agree. The larger countries of Europe should not be standing by and allowing their neighbors to slowly be swallowed by Russia. However, it should be Germany, France, and Britain leading the negotiation, not the USA.
However, there does need to be a negotiation. Something public enough to let the people of Russia know that the biggest thing on the table was a promise of no counter-invasion. Undermine Putin’s propaganda that this is defending Russia
A negotiation should at the very least not cede any land to Putin. They should move the border back to where it was in January, if not 2013.
“It Should Be OK To Talk About Negotiating With Russia Over Ukraine”
Wait, is colonialism ok now?
Like, what do *we* have to negotiate about? Not our war.
We could negotiate *with Ukraine* about how much support we will provide – but the negotiating with Russia is theirs, not ours.
Ignoring the fact that Putin is the one who started this whole mess…
“Wait, is colonialism ok now?
Like, what do *we* have to negotiate about? Not our war.”
It´s the most eloquent reaction to this article. Good job (no, seriously, good job, no sarcarm here).
Like, what do *we* have to negotiate about? Not our war.
We could negotiate *with Ukraine* about how much support we will provide – but the negotiating with Russia is theirs, not ours.
I agree with DissapointedLion. That is a much more eloquent and much shorter version of what I wrote below.
So you two would rather have the war continue?
Would you have us invade Ukraine to end it?
I’ve just read you below, and yeah, this whole article is shear insanity (assuming it’s not shilling BaldFührer).
I’m torn, on one hand, Putin won’t stop until the USSR covers the whole globe, on the other… why the USA? why NATO?
And why this article (and many others) are so hellbent that invasions and colonialism are only evil when it’s the US? (again, I question their income sources)
But they AREN’T anti-war……
Russia should be expelled from the UN, placed under a total global embargo, have all of their government personnel outside of Russia arrested and interred, all Russian civilian assets frozen and all Russian government assets seized as reparations, until such time as Russia either delivers Pewtin to a war crimes tribunal or gives him the Ceacescu treatment.
-jcr
At the very least, Russia should be removed from the UN Security Council.
That’d be nice, but it is impossible given that Russia gets a veto on any Security Council action. (There’s no way China would go along with it either, and they also have a veto on the Security Council.)
The UN’s permanent Security Council members were the victors of WWII. (Well, France was liberated, rather than a victor, but you get the idea.) The UN likely wouldn’t have happened at all without each of those countries getting permanent membership on the Security Council along with their vetoes.
Now, whether the UN has been important and useful in preventing another world war is debatable, as is whether it has been important and useful in maintaining peace more broadly rather than enabling authoritarian regimes in the developing world. I’m just pointing out the reality of how it works and the roles of the U.S., U.K., France, China, and Russia on the Security Council.
The slimy pile of lefty shit Jason is perfectly happy to endorse murder if it might keep people from putting their feet on the high priests of Jason’s religion:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?…”
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Oh, you’re quite right. A girl can dream.
You seem to have an unhinged view of political reality.
Yea, suck that totalitarian globalist cock, jcr!
Get your meds adjusted. You don’t have to be this way.
-jcr
Zelensky Derangement Syndrome.
The UN is an assortment of largely totalitarian regimes already. The idea that it is some kind of benevolent, democratic world government is a progressive delusion.
As for the rest, you’re advocating massive violations of property rights of people with no responsibility for the war. That makes you a totalitarian.
You know what the US should do? Nothing. No sanctions, no military aid, no negotiations. The Russia/Ukraine conflict isn’t our business: we have no stake in the outcome, it’s not in our hemisphere, and Ukraine is a corrupt shithole country that the US has no historical connection with or obligations to.
What war crimes has Putin committed that couldn’t also be laid at the feet of most of the rest of the Russian government?
At the end of the day, what is it about the invasion of Ukraine that is different from, say, the Invasion of Iraq?
Putin evidently controls the entire Russian government, including directing the military, so he is morally responsible for whatever crimes it commits in his name. They can all be guilty.
Whataboutery isn’t an argument.
This isn’t an argument either: ‘evidently controls the entire Russian government, including directing the military, so he is morally responsible for whatever crimes it commits.’ It’s fantasy-induced hyperbole.
Hardly. Control can be proven, and responsibility for murders assigned to those who gave the (illegal) orders. If convicted, in such case, he would not only be morally but legally responsible for any war crimes he or his agents are found to have committed in Ukraine.
A nice courtroom in the Hague awaits him.
Less than 24 hours later, the lawmakers withdrew the letter, apologized for having sent it, and blamed the whole mess on a staffer.
Yes, and that WHO official really didn’t hear the question, and really got disconnected from the interview for unknown reasons.
And the published conclusion in Dr. Hill’s paper on Ivermectin, despite contradicting what the paper actually showed, really was an honest finding which wasn’t influenced by UNITAID’s last minute bajillion dollar contribution.
And while exactly zero stories from the New York Times have been censored, let alone the entire Newspaper from Twitter, it was just the algorithms “settling in” on the Hunter Biden story.
Give these things time. The truth will work itself out on its own.
This is 100% optics/politics. The Dems don’t want to appear wushu-washy again, like they did with the Afghanistan withdrawal, especially less than 2 weeks before the midterms. At some point, there will be negotiations between Russia and Ukraine.
Is “wushu-washy” when you can’t decide on a kung fu school? 😀
Or possibly just when Chinese martial artists bathe. 😀
On Monday, a group of 30 House Democrats sent a letter to President Joe Biden calling for the United States to negotiate directly with Russian President Vladimir Putin in the hopes of ending the war in Ukraine.
Sorry, but the reason that this letter was wrong is that it called for the United States to negotiate directly with the leader of a country that invaded a neighbor unprovoked to decide the fate of the invaded country. Seriously, what the fuck?
The United States has a stake in the outcome of the Ukraine-Russia war, and we have been providing a great deal of aid and support, and we, along with most other Western countries, have imposed many sanctions on Russia’s economy. But none of that gives us any right to be the one to negotiate with Russia for peace. That has to come entirely from Ukraine. It is their fucking country and their right to decide what, if any, concessions to make to Russia to end the fighting. It is their people being killed, their cities being bombed, and they are the victims of the war crimes Russia is committing.
Outsourcing decisions about the war’s end to Kyiv creates a potentially open-ended obligation, with diminishing benefits to Americans—except those working for defense contractors and weapons manufacturers.
“Outsourcing”?!? This whole article is one of the most ridiculous takes on the war I have heard yet. How supporting Ukraine benefits the U.S. and its people is both a valid and necessary conversation. And Ukraine would be wise to consider the American people’s willingness to continue aiding them before rejecting any offers Putin might make. But to say that it is our responsibility to negotiate the war’s end such that letting Ukraine take the lead in deciding its own fate would be “outsourcing” those decisions is absolutely fucking ludicrous.
Really? What “stake” does the US have in the outcome of the Russia/Ukraine war?
The US should stay out of the Russia/Ukraine conflict altogether. We have no business negotiating anything, nor sending weapons, nor imposing sanctions, nor providing military aid.
To the contrary, we should leave NATO and let Europe deal with its own problems; they are big and wealthy enough. I guarantee you: without the US providing military and political backing, Europe would have resolved this conflict via negotiation months ago because they can’t afford to let it continue on their own.
Really? What “stake” does the US have in the outcome of the Russia/Ukraine war?
For better or for worse, whether you agree with it or not, the US has an interest in keeping NATO together because it means that everyone turns to the US for military help and thus makes many countries dependent upon us and gives us lots of leverage to do whatever we want in different areas of world politics. Ukraine isn’t a part of NATO but its prospective status as a NATO member is why Russia took a chomp at it. This has made a lot of other NATO countries antsy and if the bloc is going to survive the US needs to show that it can counter Russia, but has to do so without putting any boots on the ground. So it’s really better to think of US aid to Ukraine as a sort of advertisement for the American military complex. That’s the interest. You might not like it and there are reasons to argue against it, but that’s what it is. It’s not nothing.
Well, it looks like we agree that the Ukraine war is all about the US using NATO for achieving neocon objectives: politica power, regime change, military dominance, etc.
I’m just saying that that is not in the interest of “the US”, i.e., the American people.
Allowing Putin’s Russia to dominate its neighbors, weakening both their sovereignty and potential to become non-corrupt liberal democracies, puts the rest of Europe on dangerous footing. That is not in our interest.
…let Europe deal with its own problems…
How’d that work out for us the last time we had that policy?
So, by your logic, we should never have negotiated with North Korea or North Vietnam
No, because we actually had our own soldiers in those conflicts. That certainly gave us both a right and responsibility to be part of any negotiation. And given that our military was the main force in resisting N.K. and North Vietnam and the Viet Cong, taking a lead in the negotiations was also appropriate. The real question for the Korean and Vietnam wars was whether we ever should have had our own soldiers in those places. (My personal opinion: Yes for Korea, no for Vietnam. Korea’s proximity to Japan made allowing the whole peninsula to be dominated by an aggressive communist regime strongly against our interests. Vietnam was really only about the “Domino” theory, and we have little direct interest in who governed it.)
The slimy pile of lefty shit Jason is perfectly happy to endorse murder if it might keep people from putting their feet on the high priests of Jason’s religion:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?…”
Fuck off and die, asshole.
But none of that gives us any right to be the one to negotiate with Russia for peace.
Jimmy Carter is on the phone. He’s at Camp David, wondering where everyone is.
Oh, and just so you know, sanctions and aid are a form of negotiation.
Von Clauswitz approves this massage.
Good thing the whole “Bullies are bigger than you, therefore they have the right to treat you as sadistically as they please, you deserve it” mentality has fully methastized.
If someone is genuinely stupid enough to believe Putin will stop at Ukraine (just like 1939 Poland), they pretty much deserve whatever cruel punishment the ComradeFührer decides.
Putin has proven one thing conclusively: he can’t even conquer Ukraine, so he is no threat to the US. It makes no difference to Americans what he does or doesn’t do; it is Europe’s job to deal with Putin, politically and militarily. The idea that Putin will turn into threat like Hitler is laughably ignorant.
Hitler didn’t have nukes. Putin can profit from nuclear blackmail, or literally scorch the earth if his army is forced to retreat.
And that is why the Ukraine war is so utterly stupid, as are attempts to destabilize Putin’s government or achieve regime change in Russia.
We’ll see, if WW3 starts and we face Nuclear Holocaust, it’s on YOU.
I’d like to know who these Progressive anti-war people are, Eric. Because as far as I can tell, progressives have supported or started every war we’ve been in since WW1, at least.
Correct
Of course it’s right to talk to Putin about ending the war. Only like 6,7 years ago, the democrats were fine and dandy with Obama crafting a nuclear deal with the terrorist Iranian regime all by himself, without congressional approval. And they clutched their pearls when Trump called Kim Jong Un “rocket man” and assassinated an Iranian general. WW3 provocation!
Did I mention Trump? Because this is ultimately about him. It’s not important that Putin is just a dictator, but that he’s an adversarial figure to the democrat party. Remember that they believe TO THIS DAY that Trump is a putin puppet. The only reason they didn’t scream “Russian disinformation!” at the Nuri Matinez and Kevin De Leon leak was that they was no point.
Who says we should mind how much money we give to Ukraine? Who says neither Ukraine nor the war there is in our national interest? Who takes Zelensky to task for acting like a ham fisted dictator himself? That right, it’s the center right, and the Trump wing of the party is among the most vocal. The ones who wish for prolonged conflict, to the point of threatening to erase Russian soldiers, are the elites, the establishment, globalists, progressives, the EU – they have MANY names, but we know who they are. These people, who would call someone like Tulsi Gubbard a “Russian agent”, could also be called Neocons.
It’s a partisan fight. Hardly anyone, ANYONE in the media calls out Joe Biden for draining our reserve oil and ammunition stock. No one takes him to task for using all kinds of militant language against Russia, even though they’ve been chastising the GOP for “rhetoric” for years. The casualty will be peace, at least until Biden is voted out of office.
The US should stay out of the Russia/Ukraine conflict. That means not using tax dollars to send weapons there, not taking sides, not trying to promote any kind of negotiations. The Ukraine/Russia conflict is a European problem.
We should also pull out of NATO. Europeans have been using the implicit guarantees of NATO to insure them against irresponsible political actions, with US tax payers footing the bill.
Money being fungible, they have also been using US taxpayer dollars to pay for their ‘free’ medical care and month-long vacations.
Isolationism is a principled position, if practiced consistently. But it hasn’t really been a US position since early last century. Maybe it’s time for a comeback? If the voters support it, fine.
NATO has allowed European nations to outsource their defence to the US (and thus effectively subsidise their welfare states), but it has always been thus, and the US has always been satisfied with that result as being worth the cost. Perhaps Trump will run on a “kill NATO” platform in 2024 and that will be the end of it?
I’m not advocating “isolationism”, I’m advocating that the US not involve itself in wars halfway around the globe that we have no interest in whatsoever.
The US hasn’t “been satisfied with the results”; since that system has been in place, economic and social progress for the middle class and minorities in the US has stalled.
As long as the USSR was a military threat to the US, the NATO alliance made some sense for the US. The problems we are having with Russia today are the result of the idiotic decision to keep NATO going after the fall of the USSR.
Not if people keep spreading misinformation like Americans “having been satisfied with the results” of the idiotic NATO arrangement.
The evidence that the US has not been “satisfied with that result” is that no one has ever ascended to public office in the US calling for the US to exit NATO–except you (and you’re not a public office holder).
Just accept reality. It will make life a lot less painful.
We already know Putin DID interfere in the 2016’s elections, please don’t ignore reality, people might realize you’re not mentally competent to vote.
Speaking of reality, do you have proof of anything you just said, or do I need to have blind faith in your anus?
Yeah, they spent some money. Facebook ads and posted a bunch of bullshit on social media platforms. Big deal. That didn’t change shit. That sort of thing happens every election and I’m sure the ChiComs are doing it too.
“Didn’t change shit”.
That sounds like a universal standard we could apply to–I dunno–even the 2020 election?
One could make an argument that negotiating a settlement with Putin is pro-war, in that it rewards the warmonger for waging war. It is not pro-war to refuse the demands of warmongers to capture territory. To be anti war is not to say not to engage in defence against invaders, it is to not wage war, to not do actions of your own that escalate or start wars.
Sorry to break this to you, but if you want to use war to defend national boundaries of people you have nothing to do with halfway around the globe, you are a war monger. It doesn’t matter what justifications you imagine you have.
^+1. We have no dog in this fight.
Adding to self-indulgence, now we have fully misunderstanding what people are even trying to say.
Brad DIDN’T say we should nuke the Kremlin, he said wars should not be fought to begin with, if you still want to spin it into “nOnO u ZtUpId fUcK U gEt RaEpd”… let’s just say I now question WHY don’t YOU want war with PUTIN…
Spoiler, the biggest dick you’ve ever swallowed whole.
Nor did I accuse Brad of saying that. What I said is that if you want to use war to defend national boundaries of people you have nothing to do with halfway around the globe, you are a war monger, a statement I stand by.
I couldn’t care less whether Ukraine or other nations fight wars with Russia; that’s none of my business.
I don’t want the US to engage in war with Putin, nor do I want the US government to sanction Russia, nor do I want the US to send weapons to Ukraine at US taxpayer expense. It is war mongers that favor those policies. I don’t want that because it costs my money and risks my safety.
Yeah, hurl some more irrelevant anti-gay slurs at me, why don’t you. It makes you look so mature!
One could try.
I’m not sure I’d call appeasement a pro-war action. It’s a bad idea, and as we learned from Chamberlin’s failure, it can embolden the criminal regime that one is attempting to appease, but however ineffective, it is an attempt to avoid or end a war.
-jcr
The war in Ukraine is about funneling money to the MIC, about moving US troops onto Russia’s doorsteps, about regime change in Russia, and foremost about controlling Ukrainian and Russian oil and gas. As a bonus, the conflict allows open borders types to come up with admitting another few million refugees into the country, gives an excuse for more censorship, provides a scapegoat for inflation and domestic policy failures, and can be used as a pretext for further printing of money.
“Talks with Russia” will happen, and will be permitted by neocons and neoliberals, when those objectives have been achieved. Until then, any attempt at a resolution of the conflict will be denounced as “Russian propaganda” or worse.
Why the fuck is Reason publishing straight-up Kremlin propaganda? The Dem politicians who signed the letter just show how pervasive outright treason is, given that they were acting on orders from their paymasters. Left, right, Rep, Dem, some of each group are in the Kremlin’s pocket.
The simple reality is that there is only one set of negotiations that will take place, and that will be over the exact way in which Russia will abase itself, cleanse itself of Putin scum, and compensate Ukraine. No-one is talking to them for any other reason. If those discussions don’t happen fairly soon, there simply won’t be a Russia to talk to; the Russian federation is clearly on the brink of breakup.
Hear, hear.
The simple reality is that the Ukraine war is none of our business and that the US government shouldn’t be sending weapons there at US taxpayer expense or impose sanctions on anybody. The simple reality is that you are neocon war monger scum.
Wait, when did Davedave imply we SHOULD go full Normandy?
Putin IS a threat, who will deal with it and how are the questions, The USA has spoken already but I don’t see why eveybody else should blindy accept the USSR.
Also how funny also you ignore the ComradeFührer as THE actual 45th president.
“…Putin IS a threat,…”
Not to us.
And that’s why the US is reluctanct, but Europe is still going to deal with his bullshit.
See? this is why Europe should have gotten it’s shit together last century, instead we have this mess.
Davedave advocated regime change in Russia.
Putin is not a threat to the US. In fact, Ukraine has demonstrated that his military is pretty impotent.
Huh? What does the 45th president have to do with Biden’s foreign policy failure or Trump? What exactly do you think I “ignored”?
But the term “ComradeFührer” applies to our 44th and 46th presidents, presidents who have embraced socialist, fascist, and imperialists political programs while ignoring constitutional limits on executive authority. And people like you love them for it.
“Davedave advocated regime change in Russia.”
I repeat: how does that imply “US shold do it”? just because i MIGHT have implied it (and if that was the case, I’m sorry for the confusion, that wasn’t the idea).
“Putin is not a threat to the US. In fact, Ukraine has demonstrated that his military is pretty impotent.”
I hope so, but then again we don’t know if he would resort to nukes WHEN he gets further backed in a corner. As callous as it sounds, at least Europe would work as a meatshield.
.
“Huh? What does the 45th president have to do with Biden’s foreign policy failure or Trump? What exactly do you think I “ignored”?”
IRA? oh, you’re the sort of retard who’ll believe the “pedos in a pizzeria” bullshit.
“But the term “ComradeFührer” applies to our 44th and 46th presidents, presidents who have embraced socialist, fascist, and imperialists political programs while ignoring constitutional limits on executive authority. And people like you love them for it.”
HOW?, no seriously, HOW? do you have any idea of what fascism even means? You’re offended that you can’t shoot “dA nIgUrZ” is that fascism to you?
The “worst” Biden changed from ReTrurd () is that he actually listens to climate scientists, which CANCER BALL Z orange “man” feels offended by, seriously at this rate ANYTHING not straigth up Social Darwinism sound far left.
Let me tell you a secret, if I had a Time machine, I wouldn’t kill Hitler (tempting as it sounds) but Marx, I would strangle the faggot with my own hands; unlike you, I do consider the Holodomor as genocide (as an example, I don’t trust your little brain ti infer that on your own), not that Stalin needs the extra bump for his K/D ratio.
That is not counting Trump offering his ass to China, uhmm, I wonder what “CCP” stands for?
Are you Davedave? If so, you need to get your socks straightened out. If not, you need to get your argument straightened out.
Davedave accused everybody who advocated anything other than a hardline position on Russia of “treason”.
Which is why it is stupid to back Putin into a corner or advocate regime change in Russia.
As an immigrant from Europe whose parents were nearly killed by fascists, I have a very good idea what fascism is. And as someone who knows a lot of US history, I also have a very good idea of the historical connections between American progressives and European fascists and fascist ideology.
As for the rest of your writing, you keep demonstrating how deeply you are steeped in fascist ideology. And on top of that, you display typical fascist psychology with your frequent anti-gay, war-related, and violent imagery and ideation. Please keep going, you are an object lesson in 21st century fascism.
Yes! We should fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here ! Fight them on the land, the sea, the beaches, fight them on Winston Churchill’s grave. Fight them until the very last Ukrainian is standing
Hopeless drivel. If those not being invaded want to “negotiate” with the invader they should start by offering a piece of their own territory to appease the aggressor. Perhaps we could begin by having the guilty Democrats offer Alaska.
Any gain by Russia will just guarantee, as its prior annexations guaranteed, further wars in the future, fought from a position of greater advantage for Russia. The only way to end this is for Russia to be defeated and expelled from Ukraine, Georgia, Transnistria and Belarus. Appeasement will not secure evasion of a nuclear exchange; only a solid nuclear tripwire guaranteeing an annihilating response has a good chance of deterring one.
Quite right, this is a daft article. I like Reason on most issues but they really are rubbish when it comes to issues like this.
“That’s not a concession to Putin, it’s a concession to reality. As the now-retracted letter put it: “The alternative to diplomacy is protracted war, with both its attendant certainties and catastrophic and unknowable risks.”
Wrong on many levels. Yes, it is a concession to Putin. The author says we should all want the war to be over as quickly as possible: well yes, but only way to achieve that in any permanent sense is to enable Ukrainian victory. That means quickly sending even more weapons, not less. That and only that is the alternative to a protracted forever war. Ukraine is not Afghanistan, helping them to win this sort of war is something USA & other Western nations are very well suited to, not to mention genuinely justified for once. No NATO soldiers need to die & the upside is taking Russia out of the geopolitical equation for at least a generation.
You just need to look at past Russian behaviour to understand that any diplomatic settlement that doesn’t end up with Russia returning to their pre-2014 borders is not “peace”, it’s a temporary ceasefire. Don’t be some modern iteration of Neville Chamberlain & call for “peace in our time”, because that’s not how it will play out.
We have no dog in this fight.
I suspect Michael Vick is somehow involved.
He has dogs in many fights; he can pay for it.
And as an American, why should I give a f$ck about any of that? What business does the US government have getting involved in that war?
I mean, if you feel strongly about it, by all means donate money and fight over there. But don’t abuse the political process to force others to do the same.
The US political process doesn’t respond to the individual preferences of every voter. If isolationism makes a 21st century comeback in 2024, your wishes may become reality. Otherwise, they won’t.
American voters are angry at the increasing economic failure, inequality, and social deterioration of the US. They just aren’t putting two and two together, figuring out that the source of these problems are the military-industrial complex.
Part of the problem is that people like you keep spreading propaganda lies, like idiotic idea that not getting involved in a war halfway around the globe amounts to “isolationism”.
Someone was just telling me that the USA wasn’t “in decline”, and yet here you are, saying Americans are “angry at the increasing economic failure, inequality, and social deterioration of the US”… All signs of a nation on the up!
Anyway, “isolationism” is a word with a pretty settled definition, which I am only repeating: “National policy of avoiding political or economic entanglements with other countries.” That particular definition doesn’t mention “war”, but I think that is probably subsumed within “political or economic entanglements”, don’t you?
I should point out that not everybody agrees that the US has no business getting involved in that war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/three-four-americans-say-us-should-support-ukraine-despite-russian-threats-2022-10-05/
This group of 30 House Democrats should change their party affiliation to an anti-war third party such as the Libertarian party.
No, they shouldn’t. Anti war libertarians don’t want the US to get involved in negotiations, we want the US to stay out of foreign wars altogether. Completely. All of them.
It should be even more OK if we just let Ukraine and Russia take care of their problems. With droolin’ Joe fucking up everything he encounters, we have more than enough of our own.
Mr. Boehm, you need to be fired.
This article is the worst, most wrong-headed shit I’ve ever read on this site, and that’s saying something.
Yest, it is OK to talk about negotiating with Russia over Ukraine.
On the other hand, it’s probably delusional to think that Putin would be open to any negotiations that don’t end with him getting everything he ever wanted.
The US talks to Russia on occasion already. I’m sure if Russia unilaterally offers to withdraw its troops from Ukraine, the US will be happy to listen.
EVERYONE is anti-war. It’s just that Democrats are frequently alone in also being pro diplomacy.
Ha, ha! Good one! Laugh a minute.
By ‘diplomacy’ he means collecting bags of cash.
Boehm, you’re assuming that those progressives have principals and courage. What you’ve come across is the usual in Washington: politics.
They need to give in and support the cause of getting Ds reelected. And they’re willing to do that to save their money-making jobs. Things that make them rich on the backs of the public.
Being anti-war goes only as far as holding onto their insider trading knowledge and steering policy to where their “investments” can make money.
What I continually see in articles like this and the comments is the belief that, to paraphrase Kamala, Ukraine is a small nation threatened by a big nation and that’s just wrong.
Full disclosure, my wife’s grandparents immigrated from what is now called Western Ukraine. She calls herself half Ukrainian. I grew up believing I was half Polish. But as I found out later my grandfather immigrated from Silesia in the early 20th century a territory that at least some of which now sits within the borders of Ukraine. The current borders of Ukraine were drawn by Hitler and Stalin. Prior to the end of WWI there was no Ukrainian state, the Soviets created it. It is not an ethnically homogenous place with an ancient shared history. It is not Switzerland or Germany or Japan. It did not declare it’s independence or battle foreign invaders to protect it’s borders. It is a creation of the Soviets and the Nazis. It remained a Soviet Vassal state from the Nazi/Soviet pact until the collapse of the Soviet Union. But within it’s borders remain Russians who have consistently voted for pro Russian governments and they dominate Eastern Ukraine. They have been petitioning Putin long before this war to be reunited with Russia and for decades he refused until the 2014 CIA coup after which Ukraine began it’s war of aggression on them. In short this is a border dispute between two ethnic groups who live in the same country only as a result of geopolitical engineering by the Soviets and Nazis. It does not affect the US in any way. But the War Party sees it as an opportunity to establish western hegemony even at the risk of nuclear war.
This is an excellent history of Ukraine by David Stockman. If you really want to understand all of the competing interests it is well worth the read.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/stockman-slams-washingtons-pointless-war-behalf-fake-nation
Quoted in the article,
Let us agree that the place called Ukraine was never any of America’s business. For centuries we ignored it, through all the colorful cavalry charges to-and-fro of Turks and Tatars, the reign of the dashing Zaporozhian Cossacks, the cruel abuses of Stalin, then Hitler, and the dull, gray Khrushchev-to-Yeltsin years. But then, having destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia and sundry other places all on a great hegemonic lark, the professional warmongers of our land and their catamites in Washington made Ukraine their next special project. They engineered the 2014 coup in Kiev that ousted the elected president, Mr. Yanyukovich, to set up a giant grifting parlor and international money-laundromat. The other strategic aim was to prepare Ukraine for NATO membership, which would have made it, in effect, a forward missile base right up against Russia’s border. Because, well, Russia, Russia, Russia!
The current borders of Ukraine were drawn by Hitler and Stalin. Prior to the end of WWI there was no Ukrainian state, the Soviets created it. It is not an ethnically homogenous place with an ancient shared history.
So what? How ethnically homogeneous is the U.S.? How ancient is our shared history?
The fact of the matter is that in 1994, after Ukraine had left the Soviet Union and declared independence in 1991, the new nation of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the U.S., and the U.K. (along with Belarus and Kazakhstan) signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. That agreement stipulated that Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan would transfer all nuclear weapons and materials to Russia, become party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and that all parties would respect the signatories independence and current borders. They would also refrain from the use of force against them or of economic coercion.
There is no legal or moral justification for Russia’s actions, and they have been violating this agreement at least since 2014.
This is the slimy pile of lefty shit who endorses the murder of un-armed people if it will keep them from putting their feet on the desks of asshole Jasson’s high priests
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?…”
The point is that the romanticized David V Goliath story that the War Party is using to perpetuate this endless war is bullshit. Ukraine is not ethnically homogenous but it is also not pluralistic. Within it’s borders are two dominant cultures one of which considers itself to be Russian. Putin was fine with the borders of Ukraine as long as it was a neutral country. That changed after the CIA coup that deposed an elected president and replaced him with an anti Russian one. The people of the Donbas region have been subject to relentless aggression from the Ukraine government and have been seeking to rejoin Russia for years. Putin finally gave in and invaded. Nobody in the west gives a shit about their desire for independence from the genocidal puppet government in Kiev. This war didn’t have to happen and and once it did it could have ended quickly. The deal on the table was the repatriation of Donbas and the continuation of the state of Ukraine. It continues only because the Neocons want forever war. And if you want to talk about legal and moral justifications let’s talk about Yugoslavia and Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and dozens more. We are not the good guys.
That changed after the CIA coup that deposed an elected president and replaced him with an anti Russian one.
Repeating Russian propaganda doesn’t make it true.
” It is not an ethnically homogenous place with an ancient shared history.”
Neither is Germany or Italy by those standards.
“…until the 2014 CIA coup…”
You’re full of shit.
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The US should never have sent any aid, nor should it send any more. Period.
Huzzah. And that aid is why there is both reason and cause for the US to be involved in starting negotiations. Zelensky appears more interested in grifting than the Ukrainian people.
This article is so flawed in it’s logic.
For one not all wars are negotiated. Most are but not all.
And the backlash isn’t against the idea of negotiation. It’s about talking about negotiation right now. Because in context that means one thing. Try to force Ukraine to make concessions.
All the hand wavy phrases ignore how stuff actually works. That context and detail matter. So people see politicians making vague statements, read in the obvious context and details, and draw obvious conclusions. Which is anyone talking about negotiation at this stage just wants the war to end asap regardless of the consequences.
We know that because Putin has shown zero signs of being willing to negotiate on terms that mean anything other then the long term death of Ukraine as a nation. The only thing seemingly able to move the needle, is Ukraine’s ability to keep winning the war on the ground.
So ya if you are going to talk about negotiations and not talk at all about what is this war about and what are the stakes. Then please STFU.
The first step toward ending a war is talking about ending a war.
Or, completely destroying your enemy.
How would that work without a nuclear exchange? Also, we ar win no condition to engage in a war with a real adversary. Especially not with the current regime occupying the White House. The Afghanistan withdrawal is proof of that.
The ads does not have a leader currently.
A single team of snipers maybe?
Granted, who’ll send them? The US?, out of the question; another realization, it would need to be a Black Op, just in case.
“Or, completely destroying your enemy.”
Got a cite for such an occurrence? Hope you do, as none of my reading suggests such.
Added by edit; Chingis Khan perhaps, but…
Glad to see commenters understanding the US has no business negotiating Ukraine’s fate with Russia. At least not until Ribbentrop becomes SecyState.
It might be reasonable (not really) for the US to negotiate the Russia-West relationship – but Putin/siloviki Russia has never had any interest in that other than demanding that Russia have veto power over the future of the former Warsaw Pact and former USSR countries – and those countries ain’t interested in that veto. See Ribbentrop above.
There was a good article early on about the real source of the modern Ukraine-Russia conflict. Originating in the gas wars of the 90’s and 00’s and the 2004 election between Yuschenko/Yanukovych and the poisoning of Yuschenko. Basically, Russia has no tolerance for Ukraine accepting/adopting Western culture. That is the one thing that would undermine Russian apathy about the Russian politics of paranoia and expansionism. The Ukrainian language and its strain of Orthodoxy is already ‘too’ Western – with loanwords originating from Polish, German, Latin rather than Russia’s loanwords of Turkic and Mongolic origin. Russia was never going to allow one more ‘Western heresy’ by Ukraine. Ukraine was by 2004 already deciding that Western notions of self-governance would prevail over the Russian Potemkin notions of elections/accountability/etc. By 2012, Ukraine had decided to orient West towards the EU and an implicit part of that is that treaties/laws are more important than the personal power of leader to overturn those. 2014 Maidan was the obvious breaking point where it became obvious that Ukraine was not going to go along with the Russian notion that a dictator can do whatever the hell he wants. War was inevitable from that point. This is Round 2. And this and future rounds will last for generations. There is no negotiation because Russia does not believe Ukraine EXISTS. Its very existence is considered Nazism.
” Ukraine had decided to orient West towards the EU”
That’s only partly true. The Eastern part of Ukraine seems more interested in orientation towards Russia, and were attacked for it, militarily, from the West, years before the ‘Special Military Operation.’
As for American involvement in talks with Russia, I don’t see why not. Americans are already involved in supplying weapons to Ukraine and the rest of Europe, and perhaps sabotaging European energy supplies from Russia. I would hope any talks include the Ukrainians. The Obama/Trump/Biden talks with the Taleban never included the Afghan government, and while Americans managed to withdraw without severe losses, Afghanistan however suffered almost immediate takeover. Negotiating with Russia ‘over the heads’ of the Ukrainians is not going to go well.
Not our war, not our problem. Ukraine is not part of NATO so the US is not treaty-bound to get involved – and that’s the way it needs to stay.
The Libertarian position is to bring our servicemembers home to defend these shores and avoid foreign entanglements.
Yes.
Negotiations is a euphemism for letting Russia keep territory it hasn’t even fully conquered and saving face. It’s so interesting when the usually holier-than-thou progressives play the pragmatism card, and unfortunately they can’t be trusted not to be, perhaps unwittingly, laundering Putin interests, just as they have done every time they pumped up some third-party Putin asset or every time they pretend that moderate Democrats are just as evil as Republicans.
Putin has been shouting from his bunker for years that he is an antagonist of the United States. He has interfered in its elections and political discourse to the point of endangering the democratic system and poisoning millions of people’s brains with propaganda and horseshit. He’s an enemy of the state who is only standing because he possesses nuclear weapons.
But he has played a terrible hand, and it would be extremely negligent for the United States not to continue pushing the advantages he has given it. NATO is as strong as ever, clean energy is being accelerated in response to his and his allies’ dickering with oil, and when he is actually defeated, maybe we’ll be able to clean up some of the damage he has done and reinforce the democratic and capitalist order.
After all, most of the major authoritarian regimes exist to secure the profits of the oil industry. Let them all burn on the same ash heap of history. Putin’s failed gamble can pay historical dividends if we don’t go wobbly.
Both parties have sucked a mayor lot of ass since… I can’t even know. But it’s weird how some folks down here think that just because Putin isn’t invincible, that implies he’s harmless.
“Populist demagogue” is (one of) the most succesfull brand of dictators, I have an ex in Mexico (long story) who tried to reach me as a means to escape when the last elections. To not mention Mao or Xi…
“After all, most of the major authoritarian regimes exist to secure the profits of the oil industry. Let them all burn on the same ash heap of history.”
I’m applauding you from the other side of the screens.
“But he has played a terrible hand, and it would be extremely negligent for the United States not to continue pushing the advantages he has given it.”
Every day this conflict continues, Russia, Ukraine and Europe all get a little weaker. This plays right into the Empire’s hands. So let the talking begin, as long as the fighting continues. Americans talked about the shape of the table while thousands continued to die in Vietnam. So talk away…
In other news Russia accused Ukraine of attacking it’s ships and has pulled out of the grain/oil deal allowing foodstuffs to be shipped out of those two countries much to the chagrin of the UN and hungry third world nations. Combined with the fast advancing winter in the EU and NE US already suffering from high priced (or no) heating oil dragging out the fighting is playing into Putin’s weak hand.
Oh yea, I forgot about the nukes he has as well.
Yes, Tony, that about sums up the idiotic reasoning of the people in power in the US and Europe. That’s why US and European elites let us slide into the current conflict in the first place, instead of taking the numerous opportunities they had over the past two decades to prevent it.
In reality, Western economies are cratering, and the ability of western economies to transition to clean energy is being destroyed as part of that, along with prosperity and health.
Post-Putin, Europe and the US face a huge, politically unstable nation with nuclear weapons. But, hey, war mongers and imperialists like you like that.
I think the lesson is to keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of crazy people. I’ve known some crazy people. There is no negotiating. Don’t you know that? The only answer is to never give them power over you in the first place.
That is the kind of statement that imbeciles like you actually think represents an informed political opinion.
“Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?”
You really aren’t hiding it anymore, are you.
Amazing to me that there are so many fools on this thread, so much whiny bleating about the need to negotiate. I have skin in the game- I lived in Kyiv for six years and have friends still leaving there. I have 2 friends in the Ukraine army defending their homeland. Why negotiate with terrorists and criminals in a state with a leader who is essentially a psychopathic sewer rat, People running the Russian state are pathological liars…it’s in their DNA. Some of the fools here talk about a NATO-Ukraine war vs Russia. So be it. Hurt Russia more, maybe they will negotiate. West should arm Ukraine enough to make the Russian pigs get out of Ukraine, either retreating or in body bags. If they have a shortage of body bags, we might consider export opportunities.
“Why negotiate with terrorists and criminals”
Because we learned the hard way it’s better to negotiate with them than to ignore them. Americans, Israelis and Arab states were once happy to sit around a table deciding the fate of the Palestinians who were not invited to the discussions. After Palestinian terrorist actions targeting Americans, Reagan changed his mind and saw to it that Palestinians were given a seat at the table.
Do you think Putin is attacking Ukraine only the absence of a phone call from Joe Biden?
Putin started the war, and he explicitly frames it as a proxy war against the United States and its allies. Negotiation here, at best, is the progressive left crawling into a pacifistic Star Trekkian comfort blanket.
Yes, talking is better than mass murdering. Yes, we all have arrived at that conclusion already. If what you really want to argue is that the United States should turn heel and start giving Putin things he wants, validating his every aggression, isn’t that a term that would be rejected should they start taking?
Indeed, there should be no negotiations or talks: the United States should simply turn heel, period.
That’s not a question of “giving” Putin anything; we can’t “give” him something we don’t have.
The Ukraine/Russia war isn’t Americas war, responsibility, or business. If Europeans want to pay for, and fight, to drive Russia out of Ukraine, let them: they have the resources and manpower to do so.
I’m sorry your manhood is so wrapped up in American foreign military adventures, but you need start accepting your personal shortcoming and stop trying to use global politics to compensate.
“Putin started the war, and he explicitly frames it as a proxy war against the United States and its allies. ”
I don’t think Putin has any intention of losing the war which he claims has existential consequences for Russia. That means he will escalate and escalate again until victory. That means ultimately nuclear attacks and targeting and killing Americans are options. And a lot of suffering and disruption to the rest of the world. Is that what we’re waiting for talks to begin? I understand the American empire is strengthened by a weaker and dependent Europe, but there is too much at stake, and the benefits of wealthier weapons and fossil fuel industry are not worth the terrible risks.
What you have failed to explain is why I, as an American taxpayer, should pay for Ukrainians defending their homeland.
I agree: the US shouldn’t negotiate in the Ukraine/Russia war. In fact, the US government should stay completely out of it: no sanctions, no military aid, abstention in the UN, etc.
The “psychopathic sewer rats” that are my problem are people like you, who want to force me at gunpoint to pay for a war that I have no stake in.
“What you have failed to explain is why I, as an American taxpayer, should pay for Ukrainians defending their homeland.”
The people who run the show see Ukraine as a bulwark/staging ground in the conflict with Russia. Ukraine was where both Hitler and Napoleon saw a Russian soft spot.
“I agree: the US shouldn’t negotiate in the Ukraine/Russia war. In fact, the US government should stay completely out of it: no sanctions, no military aid, abstention in the UN, etc.”
I tend to agree, but it’s too late now. The US is deeply involved in the conflict, probably more than any of us are aware. The conflict with China, America’s financial status and energy from the middle east are also wrapped up in this.
I don’t see why it is “too late”. The US can simply walk away and tell Europe they are free to act as they see fit. I mean, what do you think is going to happen if we do that? Europeans have nothing but contempt for us already.
“The US can simply walk away and tell Europe they are free to act as they see fit. ”
That’s not the way it works. For example, the US, republicans and democrats, has been adamant in their opposition to Europe’s use of Russian gas, and American companies are selling at much higher prices. Too many Americans benefiting to simply walk away.
“Europeans have nothing but contempt for us already.”
That’s the price that imperialists have to pay. Indians had no love for the British, Palestinians for Israelis, etc.
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