English Tests Are Just an Excuse To Block Immigrants From Licensed Professions
Why should the government care if massage therapists can speak English?

Taiwanese student Ti "Joyce" Chun-Shan demonstrated English proficiency daily when she came to the United States at age 39. She took college classes in English, maintained good grades and earned a certification in ESL.
Chun-Shan, who finished a massage therapy program and earned an associate's degree at Chandler Gilbert Community College in Arizona, also spoke English with clients as part of her training.
Nobody complained about a language barrier. Yet when Chun-Shan applied for an occupational license—a formality for most of her classmates—the Arizona Board of Massage Therapy singled her out for extra scrutiny.
State law requires massage therapists who are not native English speakers to demonstrate "communication proficiency." So regulators told Chun-Shan, who grew up speaking Mandarin, that she would have to take an English test and exceed board-imposed standards in four sections: reading, writing, speaking and listening.
The board sets minimum standards outrageously high. Scores must exceed the median for all groups of test takers, including native English speakers and college graduates. Rather than waste her time and money—up to $325—Chun-Shan refused to take the test.
Other states lay similar traps, sometimes indirectly. Licensing programs and exams, for example, are often available only in English. Washington, D.C., added another barrier to those who don't speak English fluently in 2016, when the district decided that daycare providers must have an associate's degree in early childhood development or a closely related field.
The law says nothing about English proficiency, yet a 2018 analysis showed that all qualifying programs at nearby colleges were taught exclusively in English. As part of the coursework, aspiring daycare providers must earn credit in language-intensive subjects like public speaking and composition.
The prospect does not appeal to Ilumi Sanchez, a naturalized U.S. citizen from the Dominican Republic. Sanchez, who held a law license in her native country, can communicate effectively with English-speaking parents and children at her home-based daycare business. But attending college in any language other than Spanish would be difficult for her.
Tuition and lost wages while attending classes would multiply the challenges. So Sanchez responded with a constitutional lawsuit. Our public interest law firm, the Institute for Justice, represented her. Unfortunately, the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia upheld the onerous education requirement last month.
Pennsylvania and Vermont also impose college requirements for daycare providers, and Georgia tried to mandate college-level courses for lactation consultants. These and similar measures hurt everyone by raising costs and lowering choice, but the burden is especially high for English learners.
Some people who cannot clear the hurdles find themselves working in the shadows. Arif Karowalia, a Pakistani immigrant who runs two eyebrow-threading chains across the Midwest, said a state inspector visited one of his Kansas salons and threatened unlicensed staff members with criminal prosecution. Kristy Béké, an immigrant from Benin, experienced something similar in North Carolina, where she operates three natural hair-braiding salons.
Many people who are not native English speakers either give up or find other work. Research from the Center for Growth and Opportunity, a network of scholars and entrepreneurs at Utah State University, shows that immigrants are 34 percent less likely to obtain government licenses than other groups—and the gap is wider for people with limited English ability.
Some states do make accommodations. Nevada, California, Texas and Washington state offer cosmetology-related exams in multiple languages. And at least 15 states allow the use of interpreters or dictionaries. Other states have eliminated licensing requirements altogether for certain occupations. Idaho freed natural hair braiders from licensing requirements this past spring, joining 32 other states.
Florida passed sweeping licensing reforms in 2020. And Utah has passed several bills in recent years to ease the regulatory burden on service providers. Among other reforms, Utah has exempted hairstylists from cosmetology licensing and reduced the training hours necessary to perform limited massage therapy.
Connecticut is moving in the opposite direction. In 2019, the state restored an abolished licensing requirement for manicurists, an occupation dominated by Vietnamese immigrants. Meanwhile, Louisiana and Oklahoma have dug in—following lawsuits from the Institute for Justice—to protect licensing requirements for eyebrow threaders, an occupation dominated by South Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants.
Unnecessary regulations like these that prevent immigrants from being able to make a living are wrong in any language.
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Of course. Why should anyone be able to effectively call and communicate to 911 and get help. Doesn't make any sense. Holy sheet. Did I just write that?
PS: Did you miss the part where it said she speaks English?
That post scriptum makes no sense under someone elses text.
Latin is racist
We need to become a post scrotum society to defeat sexism.
and graduated university in the US with a degree........
how many of her born in the USA classmates and so-workers could pass the test she is required to pass, let alone willingly pay for the thing at that crazy price?
All of them. Except her "so-workers" of course, since that's not a word. Most people learn basic grammar including capitalization rules and spelling in grade school and don't require 4 years of remedial classes to gain entry to community college like you.
Licensing is really silly for some of these things as they don't deal with life safety. Do we really need licensing for hair braiding? Things that should require licensure are (some examples) engineering, architecture, law (attorneys), medical field (doctor/nurse). I'm also of the opinion that being police officer should require it as well due to the life safety aspect. It would be one way to get bad cops off the street and have a civilian board that can oversee them.
Do you ever watch the People's Court? Lotsa lawsuits over bad hair braiding.
Clearly the regulations are not about actually being a competent hair braider. So one must wonder what the regulation is actually accomplishing.
That coupled with the fact that even a good hair braider can have a customer who doesn't like how they do it. If we felt like a regulation needed to be inserted everytime someone went to the people's court over something, the red tape would be unbearable.
Ironically, engineering is for the most part unlicensed. All being a licensed engineer gets you is a stamp that holds you liable if a design fucks up. Unless you're working for the government you don't really need one for 99% of engineering jobs.
Do away with all occupation licensing entirely. Private certification boards and insurance can more than cover it. You still need to be able to read and write fucking English to do anything besides drool into a cup and wipe your ass in this country, so that should be a condition of immigration not of licensing.
Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch demands unlimited, unrestricted immigration because he wants the largest possible supply of cost-effective labor. I bet he's crunched the numbers and found that the less English immigrants speak, the more willing they are to work for 15 cents per hour cleaning toilets at Koch Industries.
#CheapLaborAboveAll
You mean “polishing the gold plated toilets”
Mr Koch doesn’t get his toilet dirty.
Please give us a list of all the countries that do not require proficiency in their national language as a condition of professional licensing.
Fine. Here:
But why should all these occupations require professional licensing?
Pretty sure America was founded on the principle that we didn't want to do it the way they were doing it in other countries.
That's the real question here. If the licensing itself is legitimate, then it's legitimate to set a language proficiency requirement.
I'm with you here. The taxpayers don't own Chun-Shan an Mandarin-speaking-only Massage license. As long as she's required to pass the same English test as the Mexicans, Guatemalans, East Indians, etc., etc. then the language issue is a non-sequitur.
*owe*, not "own"
How is it legitimate to put a language requirement on a "legitimate" license that otherwise has nothing to do with the language? If you can pass a test to become an electrician or a plumber without speaking a word of English, why should your lack of language skills prevent you from getting that license?
How is it legitimate to put a language requirement on a "legitimate" license that otherwise has nothing to do with the language?
I have the answer to this question and it's perfect save for one thing, I can only say it in... what languages do you speak?
Seriously, you can't be this fucking dumb. There has to be a minimum of one language to communicate any acceptance/denial of proficiency. More can be accommodated but the least-burdensome minimum is 1.
Jobs like electrician and plumber require extensive English language proficiency because of all the building codes and standards. Skilled jobs these days require English language proficiency. That's true not just in the US but also abroad.
People who can't read, write, and speak English well are at a huge disadvantage globally. The US educational system should not produce such people, and neither should the US let such people immigrate.
You'd have a really great point here except that you do in fact have to understand English to become a licensed electrician or plumber. You also have to spend about 5 years as an apprentice and then a journeyman before you can get a master license in either of those fields. It's nice of you to be a racist piece of fucking shit who assumes that every person in the building trades is an illiterate Mexican though. It compliments your total and complete fucking ignorance and patronizing attitude to people who underwent more training than you did with your BA in sociology.
This is not some basic language competency. The bar they are setting is not only do they have to be proficient in english they have to be BETTER than the average person who takes the test, which includes both native born speakers and college graduates. So you're saying they need to be better than what their native born coworkers are.
Given the poor state of US high school and college education, I'd say yes.
It's likely that the average Dutchman or Swede has better English proficiency than the average US high school graduate.
If the language proficiency requirement is legitimate:
1. The state should cover the cost of the test, not make the applicants pay for it.
2. All applicants, including US natural born citizens should have to take the test.
1. No. Why should it?
2. Agreed. Why shouldn't they?
Just like the state pays for other licensing exams? Why don't you just come out and say it you patronizing racist asshole: niggers, spics and mooslims need special treatment because they're just too stupid to go through the regular process. Just like voter ID is racist because blacks don't have birth certificates and social security cards, right racist piece of shit?
About ten years ago a bus line that moved Chinese people between Chinatown (Boston) and Chinatown (New York) got in trouble for using Chinese speaking bus drivers. Federal rules require bus drivers to know English.
"Federal rules require bus drivers to know English."
That seems reasonable to me.
Why? If you drive a bus carrying Chinese people to and from locations where everything is labeled in Chinese seems more useful to speak Chinese.
Holy Fuck you are this dumb! You realize that a bus travelling between Boston and NYC, across state lines, would travel through close to a couple hundred miles of English-only roadways?
I don't know what you think your point is, but you aren't doing any of your causes any favors.
There are no "English-only roadways" in the US. Yes, the road signs are in english - but that's a reading proficiency (and a very specialized one), not a speaking proficiency. Clearly the bus driver was able to pass the US driving test and successfully interpreted all the road signs. You have not yet articulated a reason that supports the actual rule above (which goes far beyond road signs).
Clearly the bus driver was able to pass the US driving test and successfully interpreted all the road signs.
I'm not arguing that there aren't native speakers who's reading comprehension is massively inferior to non-native speakers. You didn't need to provide yourself as an example.
IL went through the same or similar thing a decade ago. There were several high-profile traffic accidents caused by undocumented immigrants who didn't have driver's licenses. The solution was to offer temporary driver's licenses according to more lax standards. It didn't actually solve the problem of the accidents, but cleared the "unlicensed" issue right up.
Trust me, you better be fluent in English if you are ever pulled over by any cop anywhere.
Yes, I'm sure not speaking English would be considered "resisting".
Bus blows out a tire and turns over on the highway. Poor Chinese immigrants are trapped inside. Fuel is leaking everywhere. Chinese-only speaking bus driver calls 9-1-1.
"9-1-1 what is your emergency?"
"Guong jiang chi ling"
"... sir, this is an emergency line"
>>said a state inspector visited one of his Kansas salons and threatened unlicensed staff members with criminal prosecution
Kansans should stop electing (D) to operate their government
Kansas is a GOP-run state.
not where the people live.
Sad, but true.
"State inspector"
So...if a job is deemed difficult enough that "we" agree it should be done by licensed professionals, we'll just print the requirements for that job in every spoken language on Earth, you know, for fairness or something? I get that a massage therapist shouldn't need a license. But probably the people designing aircraft, for example, should. They probably also need some proficiency in the language commonly used in the local trade. This seems like Reason looking for something to bitch about.
I had exactly the same feeling when I read the line "The law says nothing about English proficiency, yet a 2018 analysis showed that all qualifying programs at nearby colleges were taught exclusively in English."
That criticism is just fucking crazy. So every school has to offer every program in a dozen different languages? Even if schools "get" to coordinate their offerings in just some languages how the fuck are you going to put someone in charge of it without spending a lot of money to make the problem worse?
re: "the people designing aircraft, for example, ... need some proficiency in the language commonly used in the local trade."
Yes, they do. And that's entirely the employer's job to sort out. There is no rational need for the government to step in.
Except, the government will endeavor to put your ass in a sling for discrimination if you require someone to, you know, speak English as a requirement. I get your meaning, but it's not like you just get to operate without harassment as an employer. If we're going to have a uniform licensing scheme enforced across industries, by the government - then requiring the licensees to write and speak the language on the test is a legitimate requirement. I'm not arguing government is necessarily the perfect venue for the process mind you. If a government regulation required some standard of competency be shown for say, an aerospace engineer, I'm OK with the aerospace industry defining the qualifications to be a licensed aerospace engineer. Then the government could adopt them, if they agreed they were appropriate. But we do have to have a common language for the process.
So fun factoid of the day. Most people designing aircrafts don't actually have a license. One or two people in the organization probably have it so they can put their stamp on the design, but getting a professional engineering license is more about being able to hold you liable in court.
Most real estate agents are not full brokers either, what the fuck is your point? They are legally required to be employed by somebody who *does* have a full broker's license for liability purposes. Since most aerospace engineers aren't freelancers working on a piecemeal basis, whoever puts their stamp of approval on the final project should rightly be held liable. You don't need every engineer to have a professional license, but you need some place for the buck to stop.
The American Translators association offers tests in translation to and from English. Many state courts have been persuaded by lobbyists to establish a monopoly to "test" interpreter proficiency. Passing a bunch of these sorts of tests provides paper evidence. But the instant case combines Mann Act officiousness and superstition plus a dose of race-suicide eugenic collectivism nobody wants to admit to. Hence the "objective" testing requirement designed to get rid of foreigners. It's the anti-Chinese riots of 1886 wearing a different mask.
Wow, you just went a bit crazy. You should see a therapist.
Yes sarcasmic, being literate in the language of the country you immigrated to is exactly like lynching.
So Chun-Shan decided that the $325 fee was too much so she refused to take the test? So did she abandon her vocation which required extensive and expensive training or is she practicing it illegally? That's not a hill I would die on. Just take the test and then have a legal money making career. If you are still pissed off, then talk to your representatives and try to change the way the law is written like having carve outs for those that can prove their proficiency in English in another manner like school transcripts and letters of recommendation from those you trained under. Only a fool would give up a career or practice it illegally. Too much to lose. Who was advising her? Probably a progressive, white, woke civil rights advocate.
Let's just let everyone speak whichever language they wish to speak. If the doctor you visit suddenly decides to speak Mandorin only, you can just bring your translator with you on your office visits.
Question: Why is the U.S. the only nation that has to adjust to other countries culture and language? Also, isn't that cultural appropriation and isn't that bad?
It's so hard to keep up with the ever changing rules.
I could also, ya know, go to a different doctor.
I wonder how that $325 course deals with pronouns in the English language?
Here is how ludicrous these English requirements are-had a friend who wanted to take a board exam in California,to become licensed as a pharmacist.She was a graduate of a pharmacy school in Ireland.She was told she had to take an English proficiency test.
And learn to walk on her hind legs?
English language proficiency requirements are usually waived for people whose native language is English. If her native language isn't English, then it makes sense to test her for English proficiency regardless of where she went to school, since the US doesn't know what kind of language requirements the foreign school may have had.
I don't see how that makes English proficiency requirements "ludicrous". A pharmacist needs to be highly proficient in English and it is better to err on the side of caution.
40% of Ireland speaks Gaelic you fucking clown. It makes sense to test them for English language proficiency especially for a field like pharmacy where transposing a syllable can mean the difference between dispensing poison or medicine.
I want all immigrants to be able to speak, read, and write English. I care about that because that's necessary for actually having something one might call a functioning country, society, and government.
This is gonna upset the mayotarians.
sarcasmic loves immigrants. That's why he lives in Canada's annex with a 98% white population and had never heard of a Cuban sandwich before on account of there's no Hispanics in Maine.
"Unnecessary regulations like these that prevent immigrants from being able to make a living are wrong in any language… Kristy Béké, an immigrant from Benin, experienced something similar in North Carolina, where she operates three natural hair-braiding salons."
The solution is to require those who write proficiency tests to acquire proficiency in the languages of those whom they examine.
This may take some time, as at last count there were upwards of 50 indigenous languages in Ms. Béké's native Benin.
Why? What do the writers of English proficiency tests need the native languages of the test takes for to do their job?
"a state inspector visited one of his Kansas salons and threatened unlicensed staff members with criminal prosecution."
Good, staff should be licensed.
I am not seeing a problem here. I don't want to a massage therapist that I need an interpreter to communicate with, same thing with a daycare worker.
How else can they explain the questions to those who flunk?
Give them their numerical score and the numerical phone number of the local embassy to help them out with translation services. If you fail a fucking proficiency test it's not the responsibility of the person who designed the test to explain to you why you failed and your lack of proficiency is self-evident. Fucking Christ, do you goddamn retards ever cogitate for more than 12 milliseconds before you just mash the keys and see what kind of linguistic diarrhea comes out?
Potato Joe says you need an Indian accent to go to 7-11, how can he get a slurpee if he can’t speak Hindi, therefore, we need the slurpee purveyors to speak English…
Ah yes... Reason worrying about the important things. Millions of illegals coming through the open southern door.. I mean over the southern border and we're wringing our hands over people needing to speak english in an english speaking country!
Explain how you are injured by a Taiwanese massage therapist practicing in Gilbert, Arizona, who has already demonstrated her commitment to this country by earning a college degree and a proficiency in her chosen field, and why she must speak English to perform her job. (PS: So much for Arizona being one of those liberty-loving states! Right-wingers love freedom as long as you're a 'Murrican who speaks Redneck!)
If you can't speak English, you should not be in this country, except as a tourist or with a limited-time work visa. Q.E.D.
Your irrelevant, impotent whining is delicious.
We are hurt as a country because language and culture divides. What makes America great is that we can come from different countries but assimilate to speak one language and be Americans. When you can’t speak English, it’s difficult to appreciate the culture and harder to assimilate. This is why the country is falling apart. South Americans are divided by culture, Africans by both language and culture, and Europeans the same. The strongest countries of culture and language are the Asians and Russians who actually have an identity. Something worth preserving. Most Americans don’t even respect the darn flag or our Constitution.
I couldn't give a f*ck about whether she needs to speak English to do her job, but as a foreign worker (immigrant or not) in the US, she should be required to be proficient in English.
If she doesn't speak English, that injures me as a US citizen because I end up footing the bill for her linguistic limitations.
why would you think that earning a college degree and a proficiency in her chosen field is a " commitment to this country"? That makes no sense at all?
She might not know what “happy ending?” means.
Is there a single evil you can't ignore if it doesn't affect you directly?
The Taiwanese massage therapist is unfairly discouraged from seeking gainful employment because of the unnecessary certification. I am injured because the anti-competitive restriction artificially deflates supply and inflates the prices in that market. As a taxpayer, I am further injured when the policy makes her a drain of public services and tax dollars.
The first argument is an established argument for standing in anti-trust actions against, in this case, the cartels setting the licensing standards. The courts have been less generous granting standing on the second argument, though it is no less true.
I am not injured. But the theirapist is. These test have such a high bar eighty percent of US native born high school kids could not pass. This is nothing more than a sophisticated bought and paid for by trade organisations to raise the bar of entry high enough to protect those already in those trades.
Let's try this: since that high level of profficiency in the english tongue is such a critical aspect of being able to serve in these trades, and since the gummit alledgedly have such a high stake in compliance, let's have EVERY such licensed operator test for engish proficiency, same test these "furranners" have to take, every four or five years when they renew their state docs for their business. SInce the state have such a high stake in it, let THEM bear the costs of the testing.
If they won't, then it really is not that important, so waive it for the "furranners".
First thread. I was wondering - - - - - - - -
then WHY do the gummit of MY state send out extra pages with paperwork for medical care, ebt, ssi, social security, voting registration, vehicle and driving license documents, all in about seventeen different languages, some of which I've never even HEARD of?
Two diametrically opposing practices. Makes the high level testing for simple trades look evenmore ridiculous.
1. She can speak English.
2.
You probably couldn't pass the English test she would have to pass to get the license.
That can mean many things. US work visas and immigrant visas should require a high level of English proficiency.
If they did, there wouldn't have to be separate English proficiency tests throughout the US economy.
Given the sorry state of US education, I would very much hope that immigrants are held to a higher standard than US high school graduates.
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That's because we are discussing politically feasible solutions in a non-libertarian society, not libertarian ideals.
The libertarian ideal is that there is no state licensing and that all functions of society are carried out by private actors.
Given that many functions of society are operated by the state in the country we live in, we sometimes have to analyze those functions as if they were private, and at other times as if they were part of the state. I'm sorry if that's confusing to you.
"Given the sorry state of US education, I would very much hope that immigrants are held to a higher standard than US high school graduates."
Most native born college graduates couldn't pass the test at issue. Given your statement which I have quoted, it is irrational to exclude natural born US citizens from the language proficiency tests for occupational licenses.
Yet, somehow I am required to pay for the costs that arise when people who don't speak English interact with the state and the medical system.
Because.
Question: Do I have to move to Lagos, Nigeria if I want to be a Yahoo Yahoo and make all these moneys like you?
You know--the thing.
Is there a single non-sequitur you won't employ in the service of Marxism?
How the fuck is a Taiwanese immigrant going to obtain a EIN/TIN, pay their taxes, drive a car, purchase a home, sign a lease, or communicate with their customers when they are unable to speak or read English you fucking clown? Just admit you want these people here as stupid and uneducated as possible to serve as a permanent labor underclass.
Yeah, we get it, you want to take advantage of illiterate Asian immigrants to get a cheap thrill because you're a depraved piece of shit. When the furraner drives through a mattress store because they can't read a stop sign or gets jailed because they couldn't read a 1040, we'll take the costs out of your bank account. Deal?
Because idiotic pieces of shit like you who decided that a shared language is fascism forced them to have forms pre-printed and available for people from literally every country on planet earth. Jesus Christ, talk about an own-goal.
By the way SSI and Social Security are federal programs, and acronyms as well as the first word in a new sentence are capitalized. Capitalization is also not for emphasis. It's no wonder you sympathize so with the illiterate.
Source: my ass.
Just because you got a 200 on your English SAT and had to spend the next 3 years in remedial classes to get your associate's degree from Scranton Community College doesn't mean that everyone else did.