The Student Loan Debate Isn't Just About Money. It's About the Experiences Students Like Me Sacrificed.
Many college graduates who made strategic choices to avoid taking on debt are now wondering if those sacrifices have put them ahead after all.

On Wednesday, President Joe Biden unveiled a plan to forgive $10,000 in federally held student loan debt for borrowers making under $125,000 per year and $20,000 for recipients of need-based Pell Grants. All told, the policy could affect as many as 43 million people and cost the government at least $300 billion.
Much of the opposition to that announcement has centered specifically on money—money that taxpayers will be on the hook to repay, money that will be used to ease the burden of people with six-figure salaries, and money that borrowers have already repaid and now won't have forgiven. To that last point, plenty of people who repaid their loans are now objecting that if they'd known relief was on the horizon, they simply would've waited.
That calculus is understandable, but it runs far beyond finances. In the face of Biden's announcement, many college graduates who made strategic choices to avoid taking on debt in the first place are now forced to wonder if those sacrifices have put them ahead after all.
I always knew I would one day go to college. When it came time for me to decide where to apply, I first thought about things like geography, variety of majors, study abroad opportunities, and the size of the student body. Those factors came to shape my list of dream schools.
How I would afford any of them, I had no clue.
By 2018, my freshman year, students at public four-year colleges were getting charged over $21,000 as in-state attendees and over $37,000 as out-of-state attendees, room and board included. Private four-years charged students over $48,000 on average. The average student who graduated with a bachelor's degree from a public university in late 2021—as I did—borrowed over $32,000.
My parents eventually convinced me that starting my adult life that far in the hole wasn't worth the tradeoffs (nor was it a serious option for them to shell out heavily for my degree, given our household income and down-the-road education costs for my siblings). Student loans were off the table. I began to search for a way to afford a good school.
That kicked off a long and winding journey. In my final years of high school, I did all I could to improve my chances of getting merit aid. I took the ACT and SAT a combined five times, gunning for a top score, taking dozens of practice exams in between each testing day. I took seven Advanced Placement (AP) exams. As a homeschooler, I bought used prep books and taught myself the material using a medley of YouTube channels and online guides.
All the while, I quietly retired the list of schools I truly wanted to attend and created a realistic one. Every day, I hunted for a deal. I emailed and called admissions counselors to see if their schools offered specific aid or guidelines for homeschooled students. I obsessed over my chances of securing a merit scholarship at certain colleges based on my standardized test scores and grades. I scoured College Board forums for tips that might help me find a school—any school—that I could attend without taking out loans.
Would I have spent less time on standardized tests and APs if I hadn't been so concerned about securing a cheap education? Yes. Several of my teenage years were overtaken by me figuring out how to afford the bulk of my adult life. Would I have aimed higher, applied to elite and expensive schools, and felt willing to take out loans if I knew that debt relief would be coming? Of course. Many students who chose a similar path as I did are now looking back on their time in college with a tinge of regret for the experiences we sacrificed.
When it came time to submit college applications, I picked a few schools where I thought I'd have a decent shot at securing merit aid. They were as close to my preferences as I could justify, but I'd since taken the attitude that those preferences were secondary to financial burden. It soon became clear that I should attend the local university, live at home, and commute to campus. On the basis of my test scores and grades, that university awarded me $35,000 annually in merit aid.
Through the aid and some strategic choices, my college education never cost more than $2,000 per year, which my parents graciously paid and I helped mitigate by continuing to apply for scholarships. I never lived on campus. I took on heavy course loads and cashed in on AP credits to finish school a semester early. I didn't study abroad in college. I dropped a second major and elected not to participate in language programs and research opportunities so I could finish school earlier. At times, I worked three jobs to afford travel to internship and conference opportunities, as well as the nontuition costs of my education.
Biden's announcement that the federal government will forgive heaps of student loan debt makes those choices less necessary in retrospect. None of this is to say that I would've made more reckless choices in high school and college if I knew I'd eventually be off the hook for student loan debt. Nor is it to suggest that my circumstances weren't fortunate or that people who take out student loans always have good alternatives. But it leaves me wondering which opportunities I unnecessarily gave up in the name of saving and scrimping. Could I have learned another language? Lived abroad? Taken an additional major? Conducted more independent research? Spent more time building professional connections rather than speeding through required courses?
These are questions that many frugal graduates are now asking themselves with a certain amount of frustration. Critics may argue that this is unsympathetic. "I died of cancer," some chide, "but even though we've found the cure, I want people to keep dying of cancer."
This is overly simplistic. Yesterday's debt cancellation announcement is less curing cancer so much as it's a placebo. Students will keep borrowing massive amounts and will be less inclined to make financial sacrifices now that the relief precedent has been set. Colleges won't have any incentive to lower their costs, which are driven up by government-subsidized student loans. The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget even forecasts a return to current student debt levels just a few years from now. The people currently celebrating relief will come to feel the downstream consequences, whether in the form of inflation, higher taxes, or reduced government spending on the programs they favor as the deficit grows ever higher.
The choices that some of us made to avoid high college bills have distorted far more than just our college years. High school was fundamentally different and far more stressful, spent fixated on navigating a financially imposing future. The things we gave up in college very well may have put us at a professional disadvantage, placing us behind peers who borrowed to attend more prestigious schools and had the breathing room to participate in experiences that better equipped them for long-term success.
Graduating debt-free was one of the best parts of my college experience—and just four years since I started my degree, it's already more difficult to reproduce. The merit scholarship that made my cost-saving journey possible has been reduced and tuition has gone up. I don't wish severe sacrifice or struggle on anyone who hopes to attend college. But I don't think concerns about fairness are frivolous, and I don't think they should be waved away as people cheer yesterday's forgiveness announcement. This one-off cancellation isn't the way to make higher education more accessible and affordable—systemic reform is.
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Brilliant.
". . . The “I suffered and struggled so everyone should suffer and struggle” brigade is out in full force today. These are the people who believe that because they had to pay off their loans, nothing should ever change for anyone or any future generation ever.
The history of student loan debt is not stagnant and it’s also, whether these people know it or not, based on a foundation of racism and classism. The ACLU has a great breakdown of that history and the ways in which student loan debt is a racial justice issue, including the unequal funding of HBCUs and the ways in which Black students were refused access to GI Bill benefits. But here’s an especially key bit:
Yet by the end of the 20th century, just as Black and Brown students and women gained entry after decades-long legal battles and social struggles, reactionary policymakers shifted the significant costs of higher education from the public to individual families. What had been considered a public good when it was predominantly for white men, became a public burden to be shifted to families. . . ."
"These are the people who believe that because they had to pay off their loans, nothing should ever change for anyone or any future generation ever."
These are people who believe that because it was possible to act responsibly, and they took the actions to do so, that others who did not should nt rewarded for their spendthrift ways.
Your post is the whinge of the grasshopper to the ants, with the added BS of a racial slant.
Remember, democrats have no ability to erase student debt, only to transfer it to those who did not incur it.
"no ability to erase student debt, only to transfer it" - perlmonger
You presume that the debt must be respected.
Why would you presume such a silly thing?
“ just as Black and Brown students and women gain entry after decades-long legal battles and social struggles …”,let’s show how we fit into the adult categories by abrogating our financial promises.
That’ll she how responsible we really really are. Just like folks.
"That’ll she how responsible we really really are." - Taq
Next time try and form a proper English sentence.
No skhoolzen you?
Perhaps we should bail out people who lost big playing scratch-offs too. If we’re going to screw people who were financially responsible and subsidize the spendthrift and the negligent, we may as well go all out.
I’m sure you have a learned diatribe about the racially disparate impact of the lottery as accompaniment.
"Perhaps we should bail out people who lost big playing scratch-offs too." - Heedless
Well you see, society benefits when the populace is educated. But it doesn't benefit when the dregs of society gamble their wealth away.
Your objection promotes ignorance, and that is where your objection comes from.
sure society benefits...where would all the college "educated" baristas at Starbucks come from?
They can get jobs at Dollar General. I hear they will hire college grads.
Society does not benefit from more marginal students going to college, and it is hurt when students receive a course of Marxist indoctrination rather than a useful education. Consider AOC, the economics graduate who knows nothing about economics; her college "education" didn't improve her skills as a cocktail waitress, and made her a terrible Congresswoman.
It is such colleges that promote ignorance.
". . . The “I suffered and struggled so everyone should suffer and struggle” brigade is out in full force today. These are the people who believe that because they had to pay off their loans, nothing should ever change for anyone or any future generation ever..."
The slimy piles of lefty shit seem to be showing up also, attempting to justify using the money of those who did pay off their loans to forgive others' loans.
And failng.
Stuff it up your ass, steaming pile of lefty shit.
the author got 140k of financial aid and is complaining that he's missing out on 10k loan forgiveness. his cost conscious values will serve him well in life. those that didn't consider consequences of large student debt will likely have lots of other debt in life as well
He is a she.
Are you a biologist?
but But but But but But but But but But but But....
It's so unfair. I'm a victim and I'm going to whine about it for the rst of my life because.......
It's so unfair.......... and
I'm a victim..........
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww............
Profligate Uncle Sam who is in debt himself forgives a few of his over expectant children their school debt. Then asks small business & the dumb blue collar worker to pay for it.
Reminder: this is also naked corruption being presented as altruism. What a disaster.
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Remember, "student loan forgiveness" really means "taxpayer bailout of big banks, and a transfer of wealth from those with average incomes to those with above average incomes."
The federal gov took over all student loans in 2014. Obama made a big stink about student loans and brought up the banks on hearings to which most of the banks replied they stopped doing student loans years earlier
It's a good thing that Juan at McDonald's is subsidizing Muffy at Harvard, you evil patriarchal cis-het white male shitlord!
Now, if they were doing this by demanding the money back from the universities it *went* to...
No it's not naked corruption, but you are spectacularly stupid.
According to Reuters, a federally funded loan program designed to aid small businesses saw at least one surprising recipient. “The institute promoting the ‘laissez-faire capitalism’ of writer Ayn Rand […] was approved for a Paycheck Protection Plan (PPP) loan of up to $1 million,” the article said.
“The Ayn Rand Institute: The Center for the Advancement of Objectivism in Santa Ana, California, sought to preserve 35 jobs with the PPP funding. The institute referred Reuters to a May 15 article, in which board member Harry Binswanger and senior fellow Onkar Ghate wrote that the organization would take any relief money offered by the CARES Act.”
Oh, goody! A brand new assholish lefty troll!
Fuck off and die.
Ha! Bingo!!
It was a loan. It was repaid.
https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program/the-ayn-rand-institute-the-center-for-the-advancement-of-ob-santa-ana-ca
The party that was once for the working person has sold out. Admittedly, I am moderate and no longer a democrat, but I one was and I was because the party cared for the working person. There are still many democrats that care for the working class, but the progressive wing does not. And they have control of the party. On their best day, progressives are worse than anything the right has. The irony in this recent debt relief is that it is basically a tax break for the middle class and upper middle class. How old time moderate democrats can go along with this should worry us all.
It's funny though, for decades we've been lectured by Republicans (and libertarians for that matter) that only the rich only pay income taxes in the first place so everyone else should shut up about tax cuts for the rich
But it’s not really analogous to a tax cut, because the “credit” isn’t going to people based on taxpayer status.
Sure, it’s mostly benefitting existing taxpayers. But it’s not benefiting all taxpayers.
My anecdotal experience shows the point: I paid off my loans. My wife (recently married) has not—but we are above the income limit for this “relief.” So I get the pleasure of having paid for 100% of my undergraduate and law school loans, plus 100% of her undergraduate loans, plus now helping fund this “forgiveness” for others—others that may be less well-off than me, but aren’t exactly hitting rock bottom.
If it was a tax cut for taxpayers, we’d just be keeping what was ours to begin with. No, this is socialized education.
Holy shit, you must be making bank, because married couples are eligible up to $250K.
well said
I'm paying federal income taxes but won't qualify for this since I refinanced, changing from public to private, for a much more reasonable interest rate. This was prior to the pandemic and the student loan debt "pause", so I missed out on that.
How the fuck is that fair?
It is not. Be sure to vote next election.
We've been lectured by lefty shits that the wealthy don't pay their fair share.
You mean Republicans sold out the working class for being against the reduction in middle class (and below) student debt.
"The irony in this recent debt relief is that it is basically a tax break for the middle class and upper middle class."
No, it's a reduction in the cost of ketchup, or a reduction in the cost of clothing, or chicken, or beans, or rent or of debt service.
Odd how money can be exchanged like that isn't it?
So why do you fixate on it being a "tax break". Is it because you are stupid?
Why, yes it is.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Progressives loath and despise working people. Progressives also spend much of their time maintaining the plantation for the black community.
Progressives really and truly hate both working people and blacks.
If you don't like what Biden is proposing, blame George W. Bush. And Trump. Blame Gerald Ford for all I care. Just don't blame Biden.
#TemporarilyFillingInForButtplug
Hey, If Fiona wasn't paying for all the undocumented students, then her tuition might have been less? Maybe?
I paid off my loans less than three years after graduating. Less than $7500. 30 years ago.
And my total scholarship was $100 spread over the first two semesters in 1984. Everything else I had to pay for.
Hey, that was my student debt back in '91!
With a starting salary of just under $30K, I paid it off in a year.
Cool. Y'all went to school for the price of a semester at a state school.
You might want to look into things that have happened in the past thirty years since it appears you've been in a coma.
Government got involved with university financing at every level and all semblance of educational value and financial control flew out the window to be replaced with marxist orthodoxy? Is that what you're referring to?
Well, sure, that's a big part of it--but it doesn't diminish the point that tuition has gone up WAY beyond the rate of inflation. That $7500 total debt is only $16K on an inflation-adjusted basis. That's a semester at Shit State University these days.
The school I did undergrad at, which was a commuter college back in the early 90s but is now a university, should only be about $2500 a semester now if we're going on inflation-adjusted rates. It's almost $8,700 for in-state tuition these days, and I doubt the kids going today are getting $6200 worth of education more than I did.
The government getting too deeply involved is partly responsible, but so is the cult of credentialism, democratizing college attendance, and the explosion of esoteric social science and humanities degree programs. Too much money chasing after too few goods.
The increase in college costs has been roughly 3x inflation since the 70s.
You'd think a bunch of new schools would have opened to absorb the far greater number of kids who go to college compared to 50 years ago, but that's not how elitist institutions operate. They aren't actually about preparing undergraduates for a working world -- at least not entirely -- else the education, the classes you take, could be offered in far greater numbers. It doesn't cost much to prop up a bunch of pre-fabs for remote campuses everywhere.
But franchising a Harvard education would just prove that they teach exactly the same thing as Bob's House of Learnin' or Small State U. It's only worth anything because it has snob value, and because you're likely to go to school with future CEOs or Hedge fund managers or Senators.
So, yeah. There has been very little expansion of the educational infrastructure compared to the fact that a much higher percentage of high school graduates now go to college after than Gen-X or before.
.....or become a snobby ivy league neo- marxist
So well said! (Stuck In California)
I was in for 25K, farther back than that, when 30K was considered a good salary (it was even in the financial advisor commercials -- "you're making 30, and you don't have an advisor?") and not a "living wage". And paid it off in 5 years. I drove a beater. I had a roommate. I didn't take expensive vacations.
You know what actually helped me get my student loan debt paid off? Not having a girlfriend for a little while. Once I stopped chasing poon for a couple years, I had a lot more disposable income and was able to get the student loans and about $7500 worth of credit card debt paid off in about 3.5 years.
the best comments always contain a reference to "Poon"
Same here - but with this current situation I put off items like buying a first house, a nicer car until that was taken care of so opportunity costs were lost if we are going to treat debt obligation like that. Again I think this is ridiculous but if we are going to frame it this way lost opportunities do have to be considered.
"If Fiona wasn't paying for all the undocumented students"
If only you could add, subtract and maybe multiply and divide, then you would realize how stupid your comment is.
But you will never have the ability.
Eat shit and die, lefty shit.
Immigrants getting this money and Fiona not getting any would be filled with so much irony it would burst.
My mom framed her first bill from college. Full time classes plus room and board added up to less than the cost of a single credit hour today.
I like this. I point out that my first semester in college in 1974 cost about 5% of the tuition for my son.
First school I attended - $34/credit hour.
Dang. I paid over $200.
My first school was a community college. Me and Kelly Ripa (really).
I did a couple years at a community college. Pretty good one, and I had several excellent instructors. Way cheaper than the UC schools, and no chemistry class taught in a packed 350 seat hall, either.
I don't know who Kelly Ripa is, so I'm guessing she wasn't there at the time.
I was the library director at a community college for three years, before retirement. The teaching faculty members there were among the best I have ever worked with. [The administrators, not so much--so check it out.] If you want to work with professors who care about their students do investigate a community college. You an do two years there and transfer, but many community colleges also have 4 year degrees.
It's not a surprise to me that the teaching faculty members were among the best. Many of the faculty members at high end institutions are grudgingly teaching classes that they don't want to teach, because that's part of the deal for being able to do the research and writing that is what they actually want to do. No one teaches at a community college for the research opportunities - one teaches at a community college because one wants to teach (with the exception of those who do it because they need the money and teaching at a community college is the thing they are most qualified to do).
and Tom Hanks.
When I mentioned Kelly Ripa, it's because she went to the same school as me. Tom didn't.
"Full time classes plus room and board added up to less than the cost of a single credit hour today."
Unregulated Capitalism is really paying off for you people, isn't it?
LOL
Fuck off and die, pile of shit.
Systemic reform isn't going to happen, though.
Democrats aren't going to do it, and Republicans, like with health care, don't think there is a problem in the first place.
The biggest lesson from this is something you should have learned much earlier - life isn't fair
Sadly, you are right about systemic reform. Perhaps if we had more moderates of both parties they would work on reform.
Reform being getting government out of the picture.
The "moderate" or "consensus" position has always been:
"It's not fair that some people don't have as much money as others to attend college. Everyone should be able to attend college. In fact, everyone *must* attend college if they want to get anywhere in life."
That position is responsible for the current debt debacle.
""In fact, everyone *must* attend college if they want to get anywhere in life."""
No. Trade schools are good too.
Systemic reform absolutely means getting the feds out of the student loan business. The scheme has been a massive financial boon for colleges and universities, who, because of the bottomless fed spigot, keep raising tuition to capture as much of this economic rent as possible. THAT'S the source of tuition far outpacing inflation.
^ So this.
It often isn't even to capture rent. It is just a natural effect of people not being price sensitive.
If I compare two universities and I am price sensitive, I may choose the first because it costs less. This exerts pressure on Universities to reduce prices vs their closest competitors. On the other hand, when people are NOT price sensitive, the University has no incentive to lower costs. The more rational decision is to invest in the distinguishing features that students DO shop for, like new dorms with farm-to-table cafeterias and student centers with full on water parks.
There are no villains here, other than the terrible monetary policy of the federal government.
Tuition also isn't the money maker for universities.
It's also not the driver of a lot of costs. The OTHER things are also way more expensive. Supplies, books, or the computer subscriptions that take place of books, etc. are all hidden costs. You pay $x per credit hour, but after you sign up for the class you find out you need a $400 math book and computer subscription, and you can't be price sensitive because there's a new edition every year even though the calculus hasn't changed one iota in decades.
Likewise, most universities operating off of endowments or government stipends make their REAL money off of investments and research.
If universities could make more money off of more students, and that was their goal, they'd provide double the classroom space, hire more instructors, and boost enrollment. There are plenty of kids doing everything they can to be accepted when they graduate high school, there is a substantial market untapped. But they don't, because they don't give a shit about the students. Though the publishers, housing, food service, and other industries around colleges sure do.
That's also spot on - most professors I know would rather research than teach two to three classes a semester at most as the real monies are the grants etc. rolling in. Tuition and students are almost a front for the real enterprise that is happening.
I would suggest that it's a bit of a Catch-22 for professors. Professors' jobs are too often dependent on their publications, which requires research, which takes time from teaching. I had a great chemistry professor, who was tenured at the University, but left because he wanted to spend more time teaching and he simple could not do that at the University of Wisconsin. We need ways to better balance this out, so professors are not forced into "publish or perish".
Purdue’s tuition freeze at year 10: Most students graduate debt-free
Imagine this, Christian Science Monitor being both more Conservative, more economically libertarian, *and* more bleeding-heart, feelz-y, SJW-y (without actually being SJW-y) than Reason has been in one article than Reason has been, potentially ever:
Turns out being unprincipled Koch sucking shill leaves you a hollow human being. Imagine being so far up your own, and everyone else in DC's ass that you'd be too scared to mention a school freezing tuition for a decade in the background of student loan 'crisis' because it's in flyover country and orchestrated by a former Republican Governor who says, "We don’t run a deficit. We don’t borrow any money. We don’t raid the cookie jar,"
Reason Magazine: "Ima Whitegirl whines that she didn't get to take out more money to travel abroad while getting her Poly Sci degree."
Christian Science Monitor: "East Indian girl is happy not to take any loans to finance her CS degree at more rural midwestern university because the university solved her problem before it came up."
You beat the ever living shit out of that straw man. Stuffing everywhere.
Of course, it’s a lot easier when you just make up your adversary’s side of the conversation.
Are you arguing against admins freezing tuition and administration costs or against brown girls getting STEM degrees? Because I see an article near literally titled "The Student Loan Debate Isn't About Money, It's About Me" published by a mid-to-mid-upper class white girl in magazine with distinct SJW/diversity leanings. Harrigan's personal story is 100% emotionally manipulative BS that's irrelevant to the issue. You want to talk about solving tuition costs, I gave you the meat and potatoes story, without empty calories and garnish two posts above. You want to talk about plating and garnish, I gave you a story with exotic spice and full gastronomic accouterments. You want to talk with poor Goldilocks about how sad it is that she had to suffer through porridge that was not too cold and not too hot, Fiona's got you covered.
Can we get Congress to freeze spending?
"...Republicans, like with health care, don't think there is a problem in the first place..."
Can a lefty shit ever post without lying?
It would be closer to claim they don't see the issue as worth burning their media credibility. Just because the politicians are delusional about how such a thing functions for them doesn't make inartful expressions of exasperation at their ineffectualness a sign of a leftist.
See above;
At least one Republican had the problem solved, for at least a decade, in 2013.
Fuck the students taking out loans *and* the tuition-raising universities. Drop the hammer on every last one of them.
Providing health care is of course a problem. And the best way to provide it is to get government out of the way, and let private providers and insurers compete for your business. Truly poor people can be helped by private charity (of which there would be a lot more money available to donate, and fewer poor people needing help, with less government.)
People borrowing lots of money isn't a problem, it's an obligation they voluntarily took on, in exchange for the hope of a higher salary later on.
"Providing health care is of course a problem. And the best way to provide it is to get government out of the way, and let private providers and insurers compete for your business..."
Which is exactly the point; our new lefty shit attempts to define the terms of the debate so there can be no debate.
Lying lefty shits need to fuck off and die.
Jill won a lottery.
I didn't.
That's unfair. The lottery owes me money.
Whahahahahhahahahahahah
I'm a Libertarian victim... Whahahahahhahhahahahahahha
Fuck off and die, lefty asshole.
>>High school was fundamentally different and far more stressful, spent fixated on navigating a financially imposing future.
you needed better guidance counselors.
College and university is not the answer for everyone such as those of us(boomers) were infected with. I heard it all: if you don't get a college degree, you'll end up digging ditches.
So guess what heavy equipment operators make?
Furthermore a two year degree or four years apprenticeship will do wonders for those who are now making $80,000/year as electricians, auto tech, HVAC or any other tech service field.
I feel like a good chunk of this could be fixed by repealing ONE of the many problems of financial aid... they made student loans non-dischargeable . In doing so, congress made cash cows out of students and the government is so used to getting that sweet interest gravy, that nobody in Washington wants to stop it. IF they put things back the way it was before their meddling, banks and loan stakeholders would have to actual *gasp* consider whether someone is capable of paying the loan back instead of giving out money like a door prize , relying on the government to back their gamble, and squeezing interest payments from people from graduation to the grave.
"The Commission on the Bankruptcy Laws of the United States recommended to Congress that educational debt be exempt from discharge in bankruptcy. The Commission made this recommendation despite evidence showing that less than 1% of federal student loans had been discharged in bankruptcy."
>>consider whether someone is capable of paying the loan back
racist 🙂
No. These are Federal debts. I'm not interested in picking up the check.
How dare people be responsible for the obligations they incur.
Sorry but that is not the problem, it goes back further. If universities and parents were back backstopping these loans on top of the student themselves a lot of this would go away. The problem is the Fed involvement making every actor in any decision indifferent to the results. I'm fine with discharging the loan from the student if their university and parents were then on the hook but not fine if I'm forced to pay for your critical lesbian puppetry FA.
Add to that most of the real debt is at the post bachelor's level. If you cannot support yourself on that degree why should I be bailing you out since you're supposedly smart?
"The Commission on the Bankruptcy Laws of the United States recommended to Congress that educational debt be exempt from discharge in bankruptcy."
Libertarian lobbyists recommended to Congress that educational debt be exempt from discharge in bankruptcy."
There. I fixed that for you..
Stuff your head up your ass and take a deep breath, shit-pile.
Somewhere along the line one of Jeffery Epstein's most valued customers, Bill Clinton is involved in this.
My son, now 32, had a very similar experience except for the 5 figure grant money. He aced all of the entrance exams. He lived at home for the first two years then got married. We had some money to help him but nowhere near enough. He decided on a degree in chemistry and refused to take any of the BS classes that would delay or distract him from that goal. He worked at places like Walmart and Taco Bell. His wife tended bar. Somewhere in there they bought a modest house and gave us a grandson. In the end he ended up with some student debt which he paid off well ahead of schedule. He continued to pay even during the Covid scam. He now lives in a very large house in an upscale neighborhood with his wife and two kids debt free except for the mortgage that he's determined to have paid off in 10 years. He makes a good living working mostly from home and his wife doesn't work outside the home but I doubt he makes 125 k. Bottom line is Joe Biden just took a giant shit on people like Fiona and my son who busted their asses and played by the rules. This isn't just bad policy. It's evil.
"Joe Biden just took a giant shit on people like Fiona"
Awwwww. He is a victim... Awwwwwwwwwww
Because he isn't getting $10,000 from da gubderment dat he by your own story, he doesn't need.
Awwwwwwwwwwww.... I so sorry for you. Your story makes me cry
I play this tiny little violin for you and your son. How could something so horrible happen to you? It's like you were sent to a German Work Camp.
Oh, I cry.. I so cry for you scumbags.
Eat shit and die, lefty asshole.
Like Fiona I made sacrifices and walked out of college with no debt. I also recently paid off my son's remaining debt so he could focus on developing a middle-class lifestyle. But I also realize that I had many advantages in my life and I should not begrudge other little kindnesses like this.
I am also noticing that young people going to college or not, are not complaining about the debt relief, is seems to be coming from older people. I would prefer a more systemic solution that address college debt on a personal level, an institution level, and a government level. But I don't see that happening.
"I should not begrudge other little kindnesses like this."
As if it is "kindness" to take someone's money and give it to another person.
As if it is Kindness to flaunt bailing out white latte sippers while blue collar folk who were hobbled by COVID look on.
There is nothing more pernicious than a lefty who calls this shit "kindness"
^this
I said it elsewhere.
Consider 150 million net taxpayers in the US. (first google hit said 143.3 million in 2017)
So, at least 300 billion dollars for this.
Each one of us can write a check for $2000 so that we can do this "little kindness". After we write our checks, let's have another discussion about how good an idea this is.
It's also one of the starkest examples of vote buying by politicians. I mean, pretty much all government spending is vote buying, but this is almost as blatant as sending your favored constituents a check in return for them showing up to the polls.
Showing up at the polls? They've already got that covered. They're hoping for some campaign contributions from those 100K to 125K folks who now have an extra 10K to spend.
Wasn't the college attending female one of the surest Dem voters in the last couple elections? They are paying off their base and trying to attract the last few that didnt realize their vote could be bought and/or rewarded.
^this squared.
We are talking about helping young people with their educational expenses. The government hands out many more dollars for less deserving causes. Check out the number of Congress people and senators who got PPP loans. Did they lay off people or did their staffs just work remotely?
What about the national debt that these young people will pay off because people today don't want to pay taxes for infrastructure and would rather just add the work it to the debt.
There a lot of wealth transfers and student loan forgiveness is not the worst thing.
"There a lot of wealth transfers and student loan forgiveness is not the worst thing."
What a high bar! So anything short of genocide is cool with you?
And I disagree. This might be one of the worst things the government has ever done. The moral hazard of helping irresponsible people at the expense of people who sacrificed to pay their debts is unconscionable.
"Like Fiona I made sacrifices and walked out of college with no debt."
Did you get 1/5 of a million bucks given to you like Fiona did?
Fuck off and die, lefty shit.
Fiona worked and sacrificed to get that scholarship money. But this goes right over the heads of leftists who never earned anything, but think they're entitled to luxuries.
Very well written.
It's nice to know that at least one college graduate can write.
Home schooling for the win.
Ya, home skoohlzen is where chillen go ta learnz how to catch them coons and kookem for some supper.
One koon + one koon = Nuclear Physicist.
Yupper. Datz how we dooz in tabakkka countrie.
you are starting to sound like the Rev
Eat shit and die, lefty asshole.
Actually home schooled children are doing much better than their public school counterparts in just about every subject.
In fact, public schools are lowering their standards for graduation to the point where in idiot will now obtain that high school diploma.
This is actually a fact in states like Oregon.
Those who did the right thing are ahead no matter what. 90% or more of the deadbeats skating on their debt are still losers. Most have useless degrees and certainly don't have the work ethic to accomplish anything. The last 20 or so years of my career I (non-degreed "engineer") ran the small tech section of my company (about 20 of us, only about half had degrees) all of us making 5-10 times what the telemarketers, customer service types, and other drones (about 400 of those) were doing good to make $12 an hour, many of them with degrees in various things. Doing the right thing is worth it.
More than 90% of people with a student loan debt are deadbeats? You sound brilliant, where'd you go?
Try reading that again; where'd you go?
There is no such thing as a non-degreed engineer.
There are only people pretending to be engineers.
"all of us making 5-10 times what the telemarketers, customer service types"
How about dog walkers... Do you earn more than dog walkers? How about stationary engineers, do you earn more than them?
Your earnings are of course no consequence to anyone.
What is your worth to society?
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Engineering is a skill and knowledge set that can be acquired outside of a college engineering school. Plenty of people acquire them outside of a college engineering school. But the "need a degree to be an engineer" proponents are mostly people who want a gatekeeping function to reduce competition in the field, either because they *didn't* gain the skill and knowledge set while they were in school, or because they think that there are enough people without degrees who did that opening the field to those people will increase their competition. There are a lot more people *with* degrees who are pretending to be engineers, than there are people without degrees who are doing work that supposedly only degreed engineers are capable of.
Yes, I know someone who for all practical purpose became an engineer with on the job training.
However, not all engineering occupations can be had that way.
To get into aerospace you definitely need an engineering degree.
Many companies require such degrees just to get hired.
A good friend of mine and I attended a local community college and he went on to getting his engineering degree then ended up working for McDonald Douglas and later, at another aerospace firm.
My older brother , with an engineering degree get a job monitoring energy costs at a steel mill.
There are still a great many occupations that require that degree .
Some of them are way too technical to be learned by just on the job training.
I am a degreed engineer (BSEE, specializing in electronics testing), and a pretty good one judging by how fast I could find a new job when I wanted to. I've had the misfortune of working with people with engineering degrees but no hands-on skills, and I'd be less likely to call them engineers than a technician who worked his way up. It took more than college to make me a good engineer. I started college with Air Force electronics training and several years' experience in electronics repair. I also helped my stepdad work on cars, starting with fetching the needed size of wrench when I was only four.
In my experience, those with such experiences, an aptitude for math, and a taste for hard work can go to a college with a solid engineering program and become very good engineers. Those with only work experience can do all right as engineers but may be limited by gaps in their grasp of the math and theory. However, engineering college is too busy teaching the math and theory to teach how to handle a wrench. If you entered college without any such experience, you'll be a pretty poor engineer when you graduate.
My dad wanted to go to UCLA. But no way he could afford bck then, not even with the generous GI Bill, nor could my grandpa, a poor teamster, afford to pay his tuition. (Grandpa had to drop out of college and an engineering degree, and go drive a truck for a living, when the Great Depression hit).
So my dad didn't go to UCLA, he went to the local Cal State down the street. He literally walked ten blocks to college every day.
My dad was not unusual. That sort of stuff was commonplace even when I went to school. I only took out loans for one year, and I paid them all off on my own within four years. I did not consider myself to be unusual.
Of course, college was a miniscule fraction of the cost it is now. But the mentality that the taxpayer has to pay for everyone to attend college is utter bullshit.
I did go to UCLA, but only after doing as many of my lower division classes as possible at the community college — only way I could afford it.
Yes. You are right. American society is way too fucked up, and Americans are way too fucked in the head for government to directly subsidize post secondary education.
Personally I look at what is being produced from high schools and the worthless degrees being granted by universities, and just conclude that the entire country needs to be flushed into non-existence.
America is made from pure stupid.
Eat shit and die, lefty asshole.
""I died of cancer," some chide, "but even though we've found the cure, I want people to keep dying of cancer."
This is overly simplistic."
It is also, you know, a BS analogy. A cancer patient doesn't choose to have cancer. People with loans chose to get those loans. The better analogy is that Ms Harrigan has remained sober her adult life, and declines to pay for others' rehab.
Yeah, but we all know she demands we bring in millions of illiterate third worlders and pay for the priveledge regardless of what it means for us or our communities. You don't see her chiding Eric Adams or the eminently forgettable DV mayor for their "sanctuary" hypocracy do you.
From the Libertarian Party Platform - Immigration -
IMMIGRATION
We call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally
We hold that human rights should not be denied or abridged on the basis of nationality. We condemn massive roundups of Hispanic Americans and others by the federal government in its hunt for individuals not possessing required government documents. We strongly oppose all measures that punish employers who hire undocumented workers. Such measures repress free enterprise, harass workers, and systematically discourage employers from hiring Hispanics.
We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government's policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.
Undocumented non-citizens should not be denied the fundamental freedom to labor and to move about unmolested. Furthermore, immigration must not be restricted for reasons of race, religion, political creed, age, or sexual preference.
We therefore call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally
Fuck off and die, lefty shitpile.
Dead people also can't complain.
By 2018, my freshman year, students at public four-year colleges were getting charged over $21,000 as in-state attendees and over $37,000 as out-of-state attendees, room and board included.
...
On the basis of my test scores and grades, that university awarded me $35,000 annually in merit aid.
Through the aid and some strategic choices, my college education never cost more than $2,000 per year, which my parents graciously paid and I helped mitigate by continuing to apply for scholarships. I never lived on campus. I took on heavy course loads and cashed in on AP credits to finish school a semester early. I didn't study abroad in college. I dropped a second major and elected not to participate in language programs and research opportunities so I could finish school earlier. At times, I worked three jobs to afford travel to internship and conference opportunities, as well as the nontuition costs of my education.
ROFLMAO! Funny accounting math is funny!
Fiona sounds like her life has been chock full of experiences. Unfortunately none of them ever included getting her hands dirty in the real world, just lecturing the rest of us about how to live.
Fiona Harrigan is an assistant editor at Reason, where she primarily covers immigration and foreign policy.
Her writing has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek, the Orange County Register, The National Interest, the Miami Herald, and many other outlets. She has been cited in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Hill, and Foreign Policy. Fiona has appeared on The Final 5 and Good Day DC on FOX 5 DC, and she appears regularly on KSL's Inside Sources, a Salt Lake City radio show.
In past professional lives, she’s worked as a translator and a photographer. She was previously a project fellow with the American Institute for Contemporary German Studies, a Marcellus Policy Fellow with the John Quincy Adams Society, and an Openness Fellow with Young Voices. At Young Voices, she was nominated for the 2021 Contributor of the Year Award.
Fiona attended the University of Arizona, graduating with a bachelor’s degree in political science. At Arizona, she was a member of Phi Beta Kappa and received an award from the Honors College for her photojournalism work on the U.S.-Mexico border. Originally from Pittsburgh, she currently lives in Washington, D.C.</i
I don't much care about how exactly she worked to pay her way through college, but the sentences:
Fiona attended the University of Arizona,
...
Originally from Pittsburgh, she currently lives in Washington, D.C.
Shed a lot of light on the accounting math above. So, the 'affordable' option for her was to choose an out-of-state school, get aid for 95% of it and then bemoan having to work three jobs so she could travel abroad rather than go to school.
All the smoke and mirrors above make it sound like she could've/should've gone to an Ivy League school if she'd only been able to borrow enough money, but the actual facts indicate that she got a fair amount of aid to pay a middle-upper amount for her Poly Sci degree from the school of her relative choosing... while living off campus *and* traveling abroad.
Which, again, 'worked hard and played hard' isn't a problem. It's the seeming (obliviousness to the) "Poor me, I could've borrowed more money to go to a more prestigious school and gone on more European trips." narrative that's laughable.
I don't think you read this right at all.
She is originally from Pittsburg. But the article says that she chose a local university (so she could stay home) and that she DIDN'T go abroad for school. Thus it is likely her family had moved to AZ by the time she was in college. Her travel was for "Conferences" and "Internships"- likely during the summer.
In general, it seems like she did EXACTLY what we should expect students to do. And yeah, I think it is absolutely right for her to feel like she got a raw deal when people who took out easy money get a free ride.
I'm certain you didn't read it right at all. Nowhere in her article does she say she attended a local university. Nowhere in the article does it say her family moved. It does say she had younger siblings, which would be kind of a dick move to them. Her bio does say she attended U of A. Nowhere did I say she studied abroad.
Moreover, Pitt, U of A, whatever, in-state tuition is $21K *today*, she got "$35,000 annually in merit aid". That money didn't just appear out of nowhere any more than the $10K in loan forgiveness did and, even if it did spring up from a tree in her parents' back yard, where did the other $14-$16K go? The 'study abroad' issue highlights my point. She chose to work three jobs to pay for travel for internships.
No, we do not encourage students to get merit aid, TANSTAAFL. No, we do not encourage students getting aid to attend out-of-state. No, we do not encourage students getting aid to attend out-of-state for poli sci. No, we do not encourage students getting aid to attend out-of-state for poli sci to insist they got a raw deal because they had to pay out-of-pocket for their own travel to internships and conferences and other non-tuition costs. I paid less than Fiona (in 2018 dollars), no aid, out-of-pocket to attend an in-state school. I tested out of my requirements and got out in 3 yrs. like she did. The loans shouldn't be forgiven regardless of whether I (or Fiona) paid for travel to summer internships or worked as a weekend janitor in the dorms and a research assistant in two labs or sat on my ass and depleted the funds I raised in HS.
"Nowhere in her article does she say she attended a local university."
Maybe you should sit down and breath for a second. You seem like you are going to pop a blood vessel. But I guess you missed this:
"It soon became clear that I should attend the local university, live at home, and commute to campus."
This is a student who worked their ass off for Merit scholarships, which typically are not paid for by the taxpayer- but rather by endowments. You are being an asshole because you just want to shit on Harrigan for her immigration stances. And it is leading you to just make up silly math and double down on stupid.
Maybe you should sit down and breath for a second. You seem like you are going to pop a blood vessel. But I guess you missed this:
No. I read should, not would or did. I further read "Fiona attended the University of Arizona, graduating with a bachelor’s degree in political science." and "Originally from Pittsburgh,"
which typically are not paid for by the taxpayer- but rather by endowments.
Ah, good, the "money isn't fungible argument" being made by a libertarian. The University collecting loan money to preserve it's endowment is OK because it gives endowment money away to people you like.
I notice you gave up on the "I paid for my own travel to internships, conferences and nontuition costs." Is that because everybody, student or not *should* pay for their own travel to internships, conferences, and nontuition costs?
Now you are picking nits. It is clear by anyone reading the article that she lived at home. But you are so tied to this attack that you cannot bail out.
"I notice you gave up on the "I paid for my own travel to internships, conferences and nontuition costs." Is that because everybody, student or not *should* pay for their own travel to internships, conferences, and nontuition costs?"
I didn't give up on anything. She worked three jobs so she could do internships. For some reason you think that means she is entitled or something. It shows me that she worked her ass off to get the experience she could. That isn't the same as "traveling abroad". Perhaps you don't realize that she was contrasting with people who paid for a semester abroad with student loans.
Now you are picking nits.
By insisting that vague, handwaving reporting not be so vague and hand-waving or recognizing that getting student aid from a public school is still grift? If you've got a problem with the latter, you must be a recent graduate from the Robby Soave School of Libertarian Free Speech, welcome to the forums at Reason, feel free to associate with other actual libertarians.
It is clear by anyone reading the article that she lived at home. But you are so tied to this attack that you cannot bail out.
OK, then where did the $15-$35K that's supposed to cover tuition or tuition, room, and board go? To pay for most, but not all, of her internship travel? You said it yourself:
"Whenever people stop being price sensitive, the prices skyrocket.
...
And it happens in the university system, where students get loans from the federal government.
My only addendum is "And it happens at Reason magazine, where former students report a sticker price they snatched out of the ether, pretend between 95 and 166% of that price materializes out of nowhere."
That isn't the same as "traveling abroad".
But it absolutely could be exactly what it means. Regardless, it wasn't part of the curriculum. This isn't some out-of-left field libertarian argument here. "They shouldn't forgive loans." is not the same argument as "They shouldn't forgive loans or I could've done more internships outside of school." or "They shouldn't forgive loans otherwise I could've showed up to my first job in a Bentley." is not the same argument. One is a principled moral stance, the other is the haggling over price with a hooker.
But it absolutely could be exactly what it means.
And, again, virtually everybody falls between the extreme of taking a week's vacation, works a day, and declares it a business trip or going on a week-long business trip and rounding 35 work-hours up to 40. Anybody writing off 95-166% of their income to claim they're poor or encumbered and saying they would've made more money if they'd known they could've qualified for $10K in loan forgiveness isn't making a principled libertarian argument. Even just the latter part, if they could've made more money, that's on them, not the government. And if that's not the argument Fiona's making then she should've cut the BS and gone with "The government shouldn't be forgiving loans whether I could've afforded more internships or a Bentley or whatever."
I should add that, more critical to my post above Cloudbuster's, there is some monkey business going on with Fiona's narrative. She said in-state tuition was $21K, that out was $37K, and that she got aid for $35K and paid $37K, the exact price she quoted for out-of-state. So, she either got the in state rate and got "free" aid for 71% more than what she needed or she 'settled' for the out-of-state option paid for in "free" aid.
Again, I don't begrudge her for paying her debts. But in an article about universities and students getting free money, an in-state university throwing 166% of the asserted in-state tuition cost at her is not a trivial detail.
". She said in-state tuition was $21K, that out was $37K, and that she got aid for $35K and paid $37K,"
You have completely misread what she said. When she gave those numbers she was quoting the averages for students back then, not the cost of the school she ended up being at:
"students at public four-year colleges were getting charged over $21,000 as in-state attendee"
Not "my college", not "I was charged", it was a summary of what the typical student was paying, and ultimately students on average were exiting school with a $37,000 debt load. And of course those are TUITION rates, not the full load cost of attending.
"Again, I don't begrudge her for paying her debts. But in an article about universities and students getting free money, an in-state university throwing 166% of the asserted in-state tuition cost at her is not a trivial detail."
For you to say that the money was free after bringing up TANSTAAFL is pretty hilarious.
You have completely misread what she said. When she gave those numbers she was quoting the averages for students back then, not the cost of the school she ended up being at:
And quoting irrelevant sticker prices without listing what was actually paid would be funny accounting math. If I quoted the average sticker price of a starter home or a surgical procedure at $20K and then complained that, if I'd gotten $10K of my loan forgiven, I could've afforded a $35K or $70K or $700K piece of property or operation, you'd be scratching your head at the math and questioning my fiscal conservative/libertarian bona fides too. I know this because I read:
"Whenever people stop being price sensitive, the prices skyrocket. This happened during the housing bubble when super low interest rates made getting housing loans easy. It happens in the healthcare market where no one sees a price before consuming healthcare. And it happens in the university system, where students get loans from the federal government."
For you to say that the money was free after bringing up TANSTAAFL is pretty hilarious.
You say that like I'm the first person to bring up whether a University, swelling its endowment while simultaneously ballooning its operating costs and consuming federal student loan money is actually a private institution. If, instead of Biden giving loan forgiveness to students, he gave money to Universities on the condition they give out more aid from their endowments, you'd be OK with that because it's endowment money and it went to academically good students to get poli sci degrees? Really?
If Fiona paid out of pocket for the University she could afford, fine. If the University covered her costs from the endowment and collected little-to-no federal student loan dollars, fine. I'm near 100% certain neither one of those things actually happened.
This is beginning to feel a lot like the debt in general where, instead of libertarians taking the actual "Fuck you, cut spending." attitude required to solve the problem, everybody has their pet cause and wants just enough "If you like your spending, you can keep your spending." to polish their portion of the turd just smooth enough to see themselves.
"And quoting irrelevant sticker prices without listing what was actually paid would be funny accounting math."
You are being ridiculous. There is no silly math. It is a simple narrative. "When I went to school, the average student was paying X, and leaving school with Y debt. I worked my ass off during highshool and did A, B and C. When it was over, my parents picked up $2k a year and I emerged with zero debt."
You don't need a fucking double-entry accounting registry to make sense of that.
Your dislike of Harrigan made you assume the worst of her. When I corrected her, you now lack the pride to admit you were wrong.
"you'd be OK with that because it's endowment money and it went to academically good students to get poli sci degrees? Really?"
I have plenty of problems with the current system. I have no problems with a student who worked her ass off, deferring gratification for ~2 years in highschool, and 3.5 years of college. And whether you like the current system or not, the fact remains that her thesis is right- if she had known that she could get 10 - 20k of her bills paid for by Uncle Sam, she could have made different decisions.
Was it good that she got a Poly Sci degree? Who knows, she seems to at least have a better command of these basic concepts, rhetoric and the english language than you.
You don't need a fucking double-entry accounting registry to make sense of that.
$10K here, $15K there, and pretty soon you're talking about some real money! - The Wizard of Ooze
Note: This comment is not intended to embody criticism of Dirksen's service to his country in WWI or his earlier isolationist sentiments but reflect the not at all unpredictable outcome of even selective disdain for double-entry bookkeeping and distorted price signals.
I have no problems with a student who worked her ass off, deferring gratification for ~2 years in highschool, and 3.5 years of college.
I don't see any actual work. I see that a University gave her $35K and she worked three jobs to make $8K over 4 yrs. to pay back her parents. My oldest son is a Freshman and is on track to get roughly a third of what Harrigan got for showing up to class every day and maintaining 3.0+ average, like some 50% of his class. Do you need double entry bookkeeping to see that nudging the $ up and the GPA down/class %age up, even if no actual money is lent is effectively converting private post-secondary education to a continuation of public primary and secondary education?
if she had known that she could get 10 - 20k of her bills paid for by Uncle Sam, she could have made different decisions
You do realize that the implied upshot is "If I'd known Uncle Sam was going to hand out free money 10 yrs. down the line, I'd have spent more 10 yrs. ago.", right? Even if you don't realize that that is the implied upshot and want to pretend it's something else, you should still realize and acknowledge, especially if you're going to post about price signals and market distortion, that it's *an* or a plausible upshot.
Who knows, she seems to at least have a better command of these basic concepts, rhetoric and the english language than you.
Says the guy deriding TANSTAAFL and double-entry bookkeeping. I think I get it now. I have a couple 'otherwise libertarian' friends who are religious-style education zealots. When it comes to policing or healthcare or disaster relief or TARP they are by-the-books, principled libertarians who wouldn't buy from GM or Chrysler even if they did pay off the loans, and we agree. But when it comes to education, it's an unbridled moral good. It doesn't matter if we pay HS twice as much to give students As in home economics so that they qualify for student aid as our parents' did, education spending is an investment and the benefits will outweigh the costs, even if they don't. Then they'll turn around and wonder how in the world we got to the point that the FedGov is financing student loans without balancing the books.
I have a couple 'otherwise libertarian' friends who are religious-style education zealots.
And, I guess, I can throw a half-dozen not-at-all libertarian and even not-at-all fiscally conservative public educators, scattered across friends and family, into that mix.
Here you go Overt, doing your homework for you so you don't have to:
https://tuitioncalculator.fso.arizona.edu/#/results?0=term&0=582&1=campus&1=Main&2=career&2=Undergraduate&3=guaranteed&3=202200&4=title&4=SBS%20College%3A%20SGPP%20-%20JR%2FSR-BS%20Public%20Management%20%26%20Policy,%20BA%20Political%20Science,%20BS%20Criminal%20Justice&5=resident&5=true&preview=false
BA in Political Science from University of AZ, 2022-2023 academic year, guaranteed total in-state tuition and fees: $7,077.68
Fiona Harrigan collected $35K/yr. from a public university to pay for $7K in tuition and fees. I'm right. No questions. Any issues raised about 2022 tuition vs. 2018 tuition makes you an obsessive nitpicker and/or an evul, bitter double-entry bookkeeping fiscal-conservative libertarians who can't celebrate someone being more well off than them.
“If she had known that she could get 10 - 20k of her bills paid for by Uncle Sam..”
See, there’s the problem right there. You can’t think like that. Not having your bills written off for you is no grievance.
When the big crash comes they’ll have us blaming each other. That’s the point of this type of very specific giveaway. It’s fucking ugly.
Sounds pretty accomplished for a young person, nothing to knock.
IDK. First, it's a bio, of course it's going to sound fantastic. I don't know what a contributor of the year as an Openness Fellow with Young Voices does. I know what a janitor does. I know what a construction laborer does. I know that, like a lot of people in my peer group, Fiona didn't mention working fast food or farm or labor positions or assembly line or really any other job, except for three of them, for minimum wage to cover the cost of her tuition.
Again, I don't begrudge people for having cushy jobs or being well off. My job isn't that laborious and my kids can afford to go to school. But there's a very distinct helping of an AWFL putting on the airs of being downtrodden and defending the poors *and herself* here.
"Fiona Harrigan is an assistant editor at Reason, where she primarily covers immigration and foreign policy."
So now she is a professional liar.
Well done Fiona. You have made it in AmeriKKKa.
Fuck off and die, shitpile.
Between 1990 and 1995 I attended UMASS-Boston. I was an adult student, working in a machine shop. I got Pell grants each year, and paid the rest of the bill myself - about $3K per year while living at home. What the hell happened to tuition/fees?
The federal government made it easy to get money to pay for school, with cheap, cheap loans.
Whenever people stop being price sensitive, the prices skyrocket. This happened during the housing bubble when super low interest rates made getting housing loans easy. It happens in the healthcare market where no one sees a price before consuming healthcare. And it happens in the university system, where students get loans from the federal government.
And it happens in the university system, where students get loans from the federal government.
Or $35K in aid for in-state tuition quoted at $21K.
Yup.
A lot - maybe more than half - of this debt was not to cover tuition or fees. It paid for the cost of having the "traditional" experience of not living at home with parents, but still being a full-time student: rent or dorm fees, food or meal plans.
The majority of students where I work graduate completely debt free, but generally they live and eat with parents or a spouse that works. Not much of a party scene, and not many alumni who will benefit from this plan.
Just to pile on to what Overt said: the fundamental problem is third party payments.
And many people have the mindset of considering their future self a third party.
"What the hell happened to tuition/fees?"
Capitalism happened.
Haven't you been paying attention?
Eat shit and die, asshole.
But I don't think concerns about fairness are frivolous, and I don't think they should be waved away as people cheer yesterday's forgiveness announcement.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Remind us who you voted for, Harridan.
Ms. Harrigan appears to have avoided feeling sorry for herself for being a chump. Good for her. I'd rather hire her than one of the high fiving moochers and leeches who are cheering on Dr. Jill's husband and his "kindness" with other peoples' money.
The people cheering it on know it isn't kindness but pure selfishness. They are not good people.
I'd rather hire an illegal immigrant ant thank her for the advise if she was a hiring choice for me.
How much money did her parents pay? Hard to feel sorry for yourself when you are so privileged.
Ms. Harrigan isn't a leacher after taking 1/5 of a million from someone to pay for her education?
What is the name of this strange brain dead universe are you from?
Is it Libertarian La-La Land?
Fudk off and die, shitpile.
"All told, the policy could affect as many as 43 million people and cost the government at least $300 billion."
No. It costs the taxpayers at least $300 billion. A lot of people seem to make this disconnect.
Plus the President has no authority to spend 300 billion dollars without Congress passing a bill.
Don't be so pessimistic.
They could inflate away the cost instead, which hits non-taxpayers along with taxpayers.
Depends on the inflation rate doesn't it?
You silly little Libertarian.
Someone should teach you how to multiply.
Stuff your head up your ass and take a deep breath, lefty scumbag.
Didn't you learn anything in College, Fiona? Hardwork, prudence, and delayed gratification are white supremacist relics of the Patriarchy.
Not only do you get nothing in this equitable redistribution for social justice, you will be forced to pay further towards reparations and publicly renounce your counter-revolutionary wrongthink.
Amazing how many folks thing that "forgiving" student debt is just like tearing up and IOU,
That is exactly what it is.
But it is replaced with a You owe they.
LOL!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
This one-off cancellation isn't the way to make higher education more accessible and affordable—systemic reform is.
Nothing says there can't be both. But I won't hold my breath.
Those who worked hard, were frugal, and made the most of their education because every minute of class was costing them dearly will still forever be better off than the freeloading group that has placed itself at the teat of the government.
Those who live by the handout, will forever be seeking the next handout; the useless part of society.
Those who manage their debts are the functional citizens.
"Those who live by the handout, will forever be seeking the next handout"
You do realize don't you TardlieBoy that the 1/5 of a million this young woman received so that she could become a "successful" Paid Liar, is a handout.
No? You didn't realize that? You were too stupid to realize that?
No wonder your a Libertarian who is so easily duped by Libertarian Lies.
Eat shit and die, lefty scum.
I have a couple of big issues with this. Firstly, it almost has to make the problem worse. People who do not expect to have to pay back their loans will be more willing to sign up for them. Universities will be able to raise the prices even more in response.
And sure, penalizing people who play by the rules will make people less likely to do so in the future. My wife was smart enough to start saving for each of our kid's education in a 529 plan when they were born. She made sure that we put an appropriate amount of money in those accounts every month. Since we were not wealthy, that meant, as in the article, doing without a lot of things that we could have otherwise easily afforded.
I have to assume that the real story behind this is that the DNC spent a bunch of money of focus groups, and determined that these actions would spur specific demographics to vote for DNC candidates. They want to pay swing voters to vote correctly, and would get in trouble if they just sent checks to people who their research showed could be bought.
Importantly, they get to buy those votes using money from their own campaign funds or secret donors, but funds siezed from exactly the sort of people who pay their bills, and are less likely to vote their way.
"not" from their own...
All they care about is power
Biden To Forgive $10k In Student Loans -- In Unrelated News, Nation’s Colleges Raise Tuition By $10k
"Nations Colleges Raise tuition by 10k"
Entirely possible in a sick, sick, culturally bankrupt, morally bankrupt, financially bankrupt nation like AmeriKKKa.
The world is laughing at you.
Fuck off and die, lefty shit.
Haha. We’ll worry about what the world thinks when they stop sending all their poor people here. Until then you’re all just envious little bitches.
Joe Biden is the worst president in history
Joe Biden is winning bigley.
Libertarians however have never had a win that wasn't destructive to their own country.
You know like the Libertarian push to move American jobs to the Pacific rim.
How well did that work out for AmeriKKKa?
Eat shit and die.
The debate is about the massive inflation this nation if facing, that this will contribute too. It is about the recession and maybe even depression that is coming. You cannot print money forever without severe consequences. This is little more than a vote buying scheme, yet it won't help, the liberal deadbeats would vote for inept Biden anyway.
Seriously, I think they've concluded in Washington that the crash is coming soon, and they're in full "Spend every cent we can while people are still stupid enough to loan us money" mode.
Gee, why is it that as Trump was spending the U.S. into the poor house, Libertarian scumbags weren't whining about how there was gonna be an economic crash soon.
Drop dead... Scumbags.
Fuck off, lefty shitpile
Responsible students who work had to reduce their debt and forgoes the fun of campus life in favor of fiscal sanity and getting the short end of the stick. Irresponsible students that probably were not mature enough to attend higher education are reaping rewards.
The incentives are being set completely incorrectly. This will result is higher costs as institutions are inclined to increase fees with the trough of "Free Money". Of course "Free Money" isn't free and comes at the expense of others in higher taxes, inflation, etc..
Student loan forgiveness is a bone-headed idea to garner votes from citizens without the curiosity to think things through for the long term in favor of short term gains.
To correct the rising costs of higher education, you need to address the cause for the increase. At the root of the rising costs for most price increases citizens complain of is Uncle Sam.
If higher education delivers a value then people will be willing to invest in the services. This is an inherent component of market economics. When Uncle Sam inserts government centralized control, it upsets the balance of these natural market forces.
People who are not serious about higher education are incentivized to attend. These non-serious students degrade the the learning experience for the serious students. Because there is little skin in the game institutions are able to increase prices because of the subsidization.
Students from wealthy families are not affected as much, but students from more meager means are deeply affected. For many of the poor they can't attend higher education institutions even with the subsidization. They however will be working to fund the debt cancellation for wealthier students.
Other than it is very likely that Presidents do not have the authority to cancel student debt and loans and should be struck down. The entire notion is a fools game and appears to be an abuse of power by Joe Biden.
What do you mean" forgo the fun of campus life"? It is not as simple as working your way through school. If a person does not have a stable home with parents that let them stay for free while they go to college, then even an in-state public 4yr school is 25-50k a year when you add room and board. 30-40 years ago, someone could work full-time during the summer and part-time during the year and pretty much pay for school. That is just not possible anymore. Loans are the only way for many and 10k is just a fraction of help.
Still, I agree the system is broken and this does not solve the problem, but it will help many.
No, they are not. The responsibility they have exercised is going to help them throughout their lives.
It's the people who have their debt forgiven and future students who are getting the short end of the stick, because they will never learn financial responsibility or living up to their commitments.
Yes, that is indeed a problem: these policies will cause higher education costs to rise, as well as being inflationary, and both of those consequences will hurt the poor.
My kid is preparing for college. He can go to schools that vary widely in cost. He also has the option of living at home and paying less than 10K a year for tuition. Or he can go away and pay 25K+. But then he needs loans. I know people in my town whose kids stayed for the lower rate. They probably do not have loans. Would they have gone away if they knew they would get $10,000 waived? Hard to say, but it must feel bitter.
Now I understand the arguments. All these rich people are getting PPP loans forgiven so why not let students get forgiveness? We can play this game all day. Some people get tax deductions and credits that I don't, for example. What makes me mad is that that is some kind of sophisticated argument. It boils down to this: If they are getting free money then I want it too. It's a recipe for disaster. We now live in a society where there are pockets of subsidies, tax cuts, loan forgiveness and so on if you can just find it. The incentives are distorting things in a bad way.
Would they have gone away if they knew they would get $10,000 waived? Hard to say, but it must feel bitter.
The free cash is always greener on the other side of the fence.
10k is just 25% if they stay home...that is if they are fortunate enough to have a home to stay in. Many kids are not so lucky, but to hell with them I guess.
To hell with them? Is that what paying back obligations you agreed to is?
Fiona, get with the program and learn to appreciate the values your government is espousing: being an irresponsible fuckup.
10k or 20k is nothing when it comes to a degree. It is literally 25% of the tuition at even a modest school. No one is getting a free education because this amount of their debt is being erased.
10 or 20k is nothing? If I send you my Venmo, when can I expect 20k from you?
Stop whining, and stop engaging in the same b.s. rhetoric as the people favoring student loan forgiveness. You paid off your loans by yourself, that experience will help you for the rest of your life.
The problem with student loan forgiveness isn't its lack of fairness (life isn't fair), the problem is in the harm it does to Americans who believe that they can rely on government to bail them out of every problem, that they are entitled to free stuff.
This policy certainly has a fairness problem, and people are entitled to scrutinize any wealth transfer for fairness, just as liberals do for Republican tax cuts and Republicans do for antipoverty programs.
I look around and see many of my friends getting $10,000–$20,000 free money and me getting $0, the only distinction being I didn't pay for my education with debt.
So I could gripe and be mad and vote Democrat anyway, or I can just pretend in my mind that their tuitions cost $10–$20K less than they did.
The real issue is if this is turned into some kind of narrative that isn't "Republicans want to force children to give birth to their rape babies."
"Fairness" is a bullshit concept leftists like you obsess about. We don't give a fuck about fairness.
The problem with student loan forgiveness has nothing to do with fairness, and everything to do with the harm it causes to the recipients of the loan forgiveness and the poor people who are going to suffer from the resulting inflation.
I frequently cope with reality by rejecting and inserting my own. It's a good tool, if you can convince yourself to believe it. Takes practice, but after a few years, it seems natural.
Stop the whining. You borrowed 32k to attend a 4 year college. That means your parents probably paid over 90k. You are a lucky privileged person. Good for you. Move on. Nothing is stopping you from having a great life.
The problem with this debt forgiveness is that is does not address the problem going forward. The country will just be right back where we are in 10 or 20 years. It is not a coincidence that as loan and aid money became more available, the cost of school went up and up and up. The education system from college to kindergarten is so broken.
Just so.
"The Student Loan Debate Isn't Just About Money. It's About the Experiences Students Like Me Sacrificed."
Oh, you poor dear, envious about the relative good fortune of others. Meanwhile, MAGA crazy Marjorie Taylor Greene, wealthy business owner who had $183,504 of PPP debt forgiven, is *simply furious* that lower- and middle-income students and parents are having *some* of their punishing debt forgiven.
https://www.politico.com/.../white-house-gop-loan-clapback/
Greene opposed PPP and debt forgiveness, so don't blame her for bullshit Biden policies. And let's be clear here: the debt forgiveness is a tiny fraction of the amount the government took from her in taxes.
And I assure you: as a high income tax payer who gets unfairly fleeced by the federal government every year to subsidize people like you, I am going to take every dime in government money from every government program that I can legally get my hands on, no matter how much I oppose that program. There is no ideological inconsistency there.
Biden's student loan "forgiveness" is nothing but a big "fuck you" to lower and middle income families, and a massive handouts to the education industry and lobbyists. It's voters like you and politicians like Biden who are destroying the middle class.
Lol. “…punishing debt….”
Ummmmm. Do you willingly sign up for “punishment”, citizen?
Poor babies. Everything is so terrible and Unfair!!!! (Tm)
When you get something without paying for it, you have a gift -- unless someone else has actually has had to pay for it without having had any choice. And we call that person a taxpayer while others may call that person the "forgotten man."
However, accepting any freebies from government generally excuses government's response at a later date, which could be to wonder who should pay more or be taxed at a higher rate. If that was you, maybe you already used your vote up taking freebies, and government can find at least find who has taken but has not given back.
The Libertarian anti-tax group the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy Executive Director Amy Hanauer said the organization received $364,000, in PPP payments “so we could maintain compensation and rent payments at a tumultuous time for our organization.”
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
What a shame they didn't manage to get 100x that much.
Bankrupting the progressive welfare state is the only way to get rid of it.
Yup, that’s where we’re at now. There’s no quibbling around the edges about who gets what. It has to crash.
Plan accordingly.
The government is still subsidizing these predatory loans to high schoolers that they're bailing out now. Apparently it's a horrible unfairness that they're completely fine perpetuating.
Absolutely stupid.
It was the Republicans and Libertarian organizations that argued that student loans should be exempt from loan forgiveness in bankruptces.
Meanwhile,...
Meanwhile, in California, the libertarian Ayn Rand Institute, named for the influential objectivist author, received between $350,000 and $1 million.
The group, which advocates for laissez-faire capitalism and whose editors of its New Ideal publication tout supporting a government “limited to protecting individual rights,” also did not respond to a request for comment.
Eat shit and die.
It was Obama who created the current federal student loan mess; don't blame Republicans for it.
Yes, libertarians are maximizing the amount of money we legally burden our non-libertarian government with. That is ideologically consistent. Sorry if you don't understand why.
Apparently part of education and becoming an adult to Democrats is learning how to use Gov-Guns to dismiss one's own contractual liable BILLS....
Because that's what armed-criminals do....
Meanwhile, in California, the libertarian Ayn Rand Institute, named for the influential objectivist author, received between $350,000 and $1 million.
The group, which advocates for laissez-faire capitalism and whose editors of its New Ideal publication tout supporting a government “limited to protecting individual rights,” also did not respond to a request for comment.
Fuck off and die, lefty shitpile.
You left out the important part: which it called “partial restitution for government-inflicted losses."
And, yeah, as libertarians, we consider it our duty to maximize every dollar we can squeeze from the state, in hopes that the system will sooner or later go bankrupt and collapse.
At least our writer didn't have to contend with The Draft hanging over her head as she struggled through college.
I got the Navy to pay my tuition, and gave four solid years back to said Navy for that.
Thank God I wasn't a woman ...
Now I'm a stale, pale, male.
You were not cheated. Direct, federal student loans were made out of treasury auction funds and are counted in the national deficit. Student repayments, however, do to the general fund of the US treasury and are spent but not on paying down the US debt. Did you know that? Moreover, the question whether one SHOULD or SHOULD NOT forgive debts is beyond stupid. The question is what's the true value of the debt? What can you reasonably expect to collect under the promissory note terms? Also, Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution. Bankruptcy. Why don't students have it? Everyone else does. Also, Medicare. Per the Urban Institute a current beneficiary paid an average of 39,000 in his lifetime BUT gets a benefit totaling 238,000 over his lifetime. SO PLEASE. The Country is dead broke. If Biden wants to rearrange the deck chairs on the titanic, who really cares? Most things that get said about this issue are IGNORANT and DUMB.
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
That parable does not apply here.
1. "Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money?"
No, it's not Biden's money.
2. "I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you."
The terms of these loans were known and agreed to. Then cancelled for a select free. Not what happened in the parable.
3. Wait a minute, why is someone arguing for government action using religion?!
The Ayn Rand Institute, named for conservative philosopher Ayn Rand, received between $350,000 and $1 million, which it called “partial restitution for government-inflicted losses."
“It would be a terrible injustice for pro-capitalists to step aside and leave the funds to those indifferent or actively hostile to capitalism,” Ayn Rand Institute board member Harry Binswanger argued in May, stating that the organization would “take any relief money offered us.”
Yeah, being against government handouts and then taking whatever handout is offered is ideologically not a problem. Not sure why you keep vomiting your copy pasta all over this thread.
Fuck off and die, pile of lefty shit.
See, and they even give you the explanation why this is not an ideological problem.
As libertarians, we should burden the state as much as we can by maximizing the handouts and services of the state that we use. That is not endorsement of those handouts and services, it is a protest against the system.
Citizens Against Government Waste, one of the country’s most prominent anti-government spending organizations and a frequent critic of the CARES Act, took between $150,000 and $350,000 as well.
Eat shir and die.
Yes, a fact that is evidently utterly baffling to a nincompoop like you.
The solution is simple: retroactive student loan forgiveness. Education is a human right.
I’m the meantime, don’t let your own greed stand in the way of others’ social Justice. Everything isn’t about you.
Funny, I don’t seem to remember the “right” of a free education enumerated in the US Constitution. Of course, I studied the Constitution in school prior to their morphing into leftist indoctrination centers.
The right to an education is a human right if one refers to the UN, and free basic education is considered a human right. This does not include post-secondary education, nor forcing others to pay for one's education, which violates their rights. You are not interested in justice, so don't use the term. As for greed, it is an apt description of your in-group's stance.
Whom will you enslave to provide this "right"?
Really! All the bleating and whining is almost making me miss the Trumpanzee bleating and whining abt Reason articles not rendering sufficient curtsies and obeisance to the former Grabber Of Pussy-In-Chief.
If you can do all that to the dollar, then what makes it worth anything at all? Do you find it to be worth more for certain people and less for you over the same given period of time?
It’s just blatant vote-buying, no more, no less. What is surprising and should be concerning to all is that the President apparently has the authority, with just a stroke of a pen, to just dismiss hundreds of $billions in legal obligations to the US government without a Congressional vote.
Americans for Tax Reform Foundation, which says it “educates taxpayers on the true cost of government” and “the realities of costly government programs,” received between $150,000 and $300,000.
In a statement, Americans for Tax Reform claimed it “never opposed” the PPP program and defended the foundation’s decision to take government loans, which it said allowed the foundation to “maintain its employees without laying anyone off” after it was “badly hurt by the government shutdown.”
Eat shit and die, asswipe.
Yeah, so? You seem to be seeing some ideological inconsistency there that doesn't exist.
In a socialist country, I still had to eat the government-provided food, even though I objected to the government providing the food.
Wasn't to "badly hurt" the whole purpose of the government lockdowns?
According to Reuters, a federally funded loan program designed to aid small businesses saw at least one surprising recipient. “The institute promoting the ‘laissez-faire capitalism’ of writer Ayn Rand […] was approved for a Paycheck Protection Plan (PPP) loan of up to $1 million,” the article said.
“The Ayn Rand Institute: The Center for the Advancement of Objectivism in Santa Ana, California, sought to preserve 35 jobs with the PPP funding. The institute referred Reuters to a May 15 article, in which board member Harry Binswanger and senior fellow Onkar Ghate wrote that the organization would take any relief money offered by the CARES Act.”..
Fuck off and die, shitbag.
Libertarian institutions and individuals have no problem taking every single dollar in government handouts we can get our hands on.
There is no ideological inconsistency there. Most of us have paid far more in taxes than we ever get out.
We want the system of taxation and redistribution to be ended. Until it is ended, we have to live by its rules.
So, good for the Ayn Rand institute! I hope they got every dime they could.
A refund is a refund. The looters-with-guns need not feign contrition, remorse or mending of their ways, and honesty is expecting a bit much.
This is totally unfair to those students who worked to pay off their college loans. Fairness would be to refund, with interest, that part of the money corresponding to the forgiveness now proposed to forgive current student debts.
OR we could try this. GOING AHEAD...we ask every college that accepts loan funds as tuition to backstop those loans and borrowers, ask the families to co-sign. let the families who know the kid best get in bed with their dimwitted spawn. let the schools pumping out WORTHLESS degrees and UNEDUCATED graduates pay for their failures. right now the schools are hammering checks paid by unemployed and broke people (students) that couldn't buy lunch with a co-signer and who are yet offered as much loan cash as they want. WHAT COULD GO WRONG?
as for NOW? immediately buy all the loans, reset interest rate to fed funds rate AND OFFER TO FIX IT AT THAT RATE if the kids can get their friends or family or private sector employer co-sign the new note. if those who know them best can't see the beauty of that let's accept that they know that kid and have let us all know they don't trust them.
the average loan is less than $37,000. at todays current fed funds rate of approx 2.55%, at 2,5% for ten years that's $349/month. and let's remember that's an AVERAGE. for all the $50 and 75K loans there's a $12,000 or $20,000. these are amounts that could be retired in 2 years of 1 day a week part time work at $15/hour. i saw my local cheap gas station yesterday offering $20 to start. being the curious type i asked if they would permit one to work just 8-10 hours a week she said YES YES YES and started to reach for an application
if someone is having their life ruined by less than $20,000 of student loan debt they need to do a serious assessment of how they are running their business
The state is the great fictitious entity by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else.
-- Frederic Bastiat
'The State' who's only 'tool' in the toolbox is a monopoly of GUN-FORCE. Government used in this way is just a 3rd party cover for criminalistic-minded gang committing armed-robbery.
Once upon a time people of the USA knew the only PURPOSE that a monopoly of GUNS could possibly serve humanity was to ensure Individual Liberty from Gun-Toting criminals/invaders and Justice for all. Today that monopoly guns works for the Gun-Toting criminals FAR, FAR, FAR more than it works to ensure Liberty or Justice.
The author makes many good points.
While the issue of student debt forgiveness hasn't been that personal for me — it having been 53 years since I finished my higher education career — nevertheless it has certainly "crossed my mind" as this issue has been periodically broached. While we were of a working class-income family during my elementary school years, we became a lower income family prior to my high school years, due to the death of both my Father and Stepfather before high school. Fortunately, I was blessed that both my Father and Stepfather took out endowment insurance policies that allowed me to fully pay all college and postgraduate costs with their proceeds, so that I never incurred any debt.
Nevertheless, certain scrimping was necessarily the result of those moneys being diverted to discharge of my prospective higher education costs. Some opportunities that could have been experienced were necessarily sacrificed from the diversion and retention of those moneys for this purpose. One then can feel a certain amount of umbrage that my family and myself, as well as families and others in the same situation, made this effort through reduction of their disposable income while others are, to some extent, getting a "free ride".
Moreover, higher education provides numerous benefits, not merely in potential higher income but in the expanse of one's knowledge and opportunities for intellectual exercise as well as the opportunity to benefit others thereby. One then should appreciate that incurring a cost for those benefits is fair and proper — and should not be the obligation of some strangers.
[None of the above is intended to ignore or diminish the problem of the current atrocious costs of higher education. This is an issue that is signal and is the one that must be addressed. Nevertheless this factor still does not justify the shifting of this burden from the ones who received those benefits to ones who did not.]
IF a person making $125000/year can't pay against his student loan, then he/she must be blowing his/her earnings on "other than NECESSITIES", e.g. drugs, cars, night clubs, tattoos, piercings, casinos, entertainment devices and services, ..... SO why is THAT OK, i.e. to duck your self-made obligations for pleasures - I know, it's a very "woke" necessity.
IF the degree didn't pay off with a financially suitable job, then who's fault might that be? Surely not your fellow working tax-paying citizen. Maybe the school conned you?
Is the public funding of "higher education" actually yielding a payback? Why then are some significant tech companies discounting it, and providing their own "training boot camps" where people focus on what they need to do well to do their jobs. Guess what, these folks can STILL be well rounded - libraries, and mass media provide exposure to all manner of enriching material that does NOT have to be funded by governments and channeled thru generalized colleges with woke curriculum. I did go the University root for an EE degree on my own dime. I frankly used the Navy Tech manuals, and hands-on worked in the labs fixing equipment to augment my scholarly classes.
Ended up eating duck eggs the last two weeks before graduating - money was slim for sure, BUT survived, enjoyed it, and poof - no debt. Parents did buy me a suit prior to graduation - I think just to make sure I got a job. IT CAN BE DONE and ENJOYED if you are more AWAKE than WOKE.
Student loan forgiveness should come out of the endowments of universities, not out of the pockets of taxpayers.
Let student borrowers recover their tuition and expenses from the universities that granted them useless degrees.
That's the only way this nonsense ever stops.
A cartoon that sums up those experiences: https://static.politico.com/18/10/8404f95046b38c33ffe06a1a10d8/4-davies-andrews-mcmeel-syndication.jpg
That cartoon is a lie. While college costs have risen faster than inflation, they were already high in the 1980's and 1990's.
Furthermore, Biden is making the problem worse, not better. Under his plan, colleges will increase their prices and students will then be forced to take out higher loans in order to pay for it. Since most people won't be able to repay that debt, almost everybody will have to rely on income based repayment and eventual debt forgiveness after 10 years.
What makes Biden's plan even more perverse is that it encourages people in the lowest income fields to take out the highest student loans.
You couldn't design a program that's worse for students than what Biden is doing.
That big bag of money that's crushing students in that cartoon? You can thank Obama, Biden, and the Democrats for that. And, frankly, greedy, entitled people like you deserve it.
A plurality of Americans have never been to college. Should they pick-up your debt?
Of those who have recently graduated from college, about half have either incurred no debt, or have paid their debt back.
I taught college math and engineering until a few years ago. An awful lot of debt was incurred on "extras," like "Study Abroad." Very few of the kids who studied abroad actually bothered to learn the language of the country to which they were planning to study.
College is way too expensive and way too much money thrown about for bull shit degrees such as gender or wymyn's studies, philosophy majors and other assorted useless trash majors. '
So they can't pay their bills .....too bad. Trying to force their own bad decisions onto hard working taxpayers who have had enough of this neo liberal/ socialist /Marxist crap, is going to be the last straw.
Biden Administration have no constitutional power to do any such thing.
The brain dead moron in the White House is on his way out but before he goes, he and his administration of ivy league neo Marxists and mentally ill gender confused morons are going to cause as much damage to this nation as they possibly can.
Maybe even start a civil war.
When the Republican retake the House, they need to immediately begin impeachment proceeding against Biden and Harris.
A lot of philosophy majors wind up as Catholic priests, Jewish rabbis, Protestant ministers, and lawyers.
A friend of mine from college has been a crew dispatcher for several airlines for the last 35 years. He majored in philosophy.
I attended the University of Michigan. The campus security officer who patrolled my dormitory had an English degree from Michigan.
A classmate of mine in law school wound up as a federal prosecutor. She majored in gender studies.
Meanwhile, my former pastor had a degree in journalism and worked on the school paper at the University of Illinois. Her advisor was disappointed that she decided to attend seminary (her father was a minister). He thought she had a real flair for writing and should have tried to find a job with a newspaper.
A lot of people get useless degrees and wind up being very successful. My wife majored in history and political science and has worked in IT for over 25 years. Meanwhile, a classmate of hers, who majored in international business, has worked a variety of jobs in retail. But, not in management, but rather, working a sales floor.
My father had a degree in agriculture, specifically dairy science. While that degree came in handy for the 14 years that he worked in dairy operations, it wasn't as handy, when the company moved him into labor relations, negotiating labor contracts and handling grievances.
Higher education is about teaching people how to think critically. At the same time, ambition plays a role in how successful a person will be.
It's always worth it to avoid extra debt. All of that student loan debt, as well as the amount discharged, will show up on credit reports. The fact that someone had to take advantage of the government forgiveness plan will not look good on a credit score. Meanwhile, someone who has income and no debt as of graduation day will have a higher credit score.
I wish Miss Harris the best of luck. Unfortunately, she's learning one of the great truths of socialism: That individuals have no right to the fruits of their own labor.
In short, the State owns you and everything you have every done.
I guess Obama said it best, "You didn't build that!"
She has a college degree but she doesn't seem to understand that life isn't fair and there are many people who have suffered far less fairness than she has. She might feel better if she realizes there are hundreds of millions of women alive today who will never have the opportunity she has. And if you include all women that ever lived, she is among an elite few by comparison.
So... all that bother and expense for a BA in Pauper and Terrorist Importation Studies?
To the author:
The federal government warped and destroyed the market for college and graduate degrees with federal lending. This is why this problem of unpayable debt exists.
Direct federal student lending is financed not with tax dollars, but out of the proceeds of a 10-year treasury bond auction earmarked for the Department of Education once per year.
The federal government frequently borrows at or near 0%, especially when the federal reserve is buying and then it is 0% interest by statute. Plus ZIRP. But they sure as hell don't lend at 0% to students. Try up to 8%. Goldman, etc etc etc got a way better deal.
Because they are financed with bonds, all direct, federal loans (1.7 trillion) are part of the 30 trillion national debt.
When a student borrower makes payments to the Department of Education, that money is not used to pay down the national debt that was incurred to make the loan in the first place. It goes to the general fund of the Treasury and is spent.
And presto, all "taxpayers" are all on the hook for the full 1.7 trillion. But, which taxpayers exactly? Why the same ones who are working so hard to pay off that 30 trillion now? Get real. We'll hyperinflate or default. No one is paying that 30 trillion and certainly not a dumb*ss Baby Boomer.
When the government forgives your loans (likely because you cannot in any place), it foregoes repayments. Most recently that I can find, it's 70 billion dollars annually in repayments.
I believe in 2021, the federal government spent 6 trillion dollars (crazy AF). So student loan repayments are 1.2% of the budget.
Per Rand Paul's "penny plan" cutting one cent from each dollar the federal government spends would reduce spending by 404 billion dollars over 5 years.
So we're really breaking the bank forgiving 70 billion a year? You're on and on about taxpayer burden over less than 1 cent on the dollar impact? Hhmm.
Furthermore, the framing of this issue about repayment as "should have to repay" versus "should not have to repay" is the dumbest framing imaginable. The question is what can be repaid and is likely to be repaid under the terms of these promissory notes that have IBR and 20 or 25 year forgiveness? You can assume an evidence-based, continual growth in income and find out for certain that you will not be repaid in full. Why are you not writing down balances?
In any actual market, this debt would be re-priced through defaults, settlements, bankruptcy. And student debtors should have bankruptcy protection. It's outrageous that they do not when damn near every other form of debt, including some income tax debt can be wiped out in bankruptcy. If we had bankruptcy price would cease to rise as bankruptcies would expose poor return on investment and generally piss off creditors. No loans = no rise in tuition.
And finally, this brings me to my favorite people, the Baby Boomers. According to Urban Institute Baby Boomers pay into medicare on average over their lifetime 39,000 and gets benefits of 238,000. It's not going to be there for me. Just like social security won't be there for me. SO WHO IS GETTING BAILED OUT??
The debt situation in this country is an absolute farce. So, do I care even if Biden wiped out 1.7 trillion? I do not.
Pick on boomers if you like. The market for healthcare is distorted by the government. I get Medicare and thank you working people who pay for it. You should rebel. Same for social security. I worked for myself and paid as little as possible into it and took mine at 62 1/2 because of a sense of doom.
Thanks taxpayers for the $6,000 tax credit I got for putting up solar - another market distortion. There are some other tax credits for energy efficient roofing, insulation, windows - all market distortions that have people who cannot afford the stuff pay for it.
Mind boggling idiocy on the part of our government.
Well, I wouldn't cut you off. However, what is happening and has been happening is generational economic warfare. And it's coming from the federal government and it's big time coming from the federal reserve. And younger people are always catching it on the chin through these monstrous manipulations - pulling these massive levers. Millennials (I am one) own one third the wealth Baby Boomers did at the same age. Buy stocks? Too expensive thanks ZIRP. Save money? You get 0% interest in your bank account your entire adult life. Buy homes? Try fighting the Fed when they put 700 billion directly into the housing market in 2 years and blow Case Shiller up orders of magnitude higher than the housing bubble. Who benefits? Asset owners benefit. Who's reaping things they never sowed? It's the Boomers, hands down. So seriously, Mitch McConnell, et al can kiss. my. ass. Y'all talking about cutting Medicare? Didn't think so. So along comes a crisis entirely of the governments making and to hide their failure they systematically remove economic rights from younger people. They had bankruptcy. They took it away from us. When they could do nothing else to stop the defaults, they made the defaults legal through income driven payment plans...kick the can...extend and pretend. So, the dialogue around this that is so shallow is everything that's wrong with the country and politics writ large. I've turned over a new leaf. If Millennials et seq are finally a significant special interest/voting block that must be catered to and someone wants to buy my vote, my only qualm will be is the price high enough?