How Slaughterhouse-Five Became a Repeated Target of Book Burners
As recently as 2011, a school board in Missouri barred the book from the curriculum and ordered it confined to a special section of the school's library.

Like Billy Pilgrim, the unstuck-in-time protagonist of Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade, it can sometimes feel like we're all witnessing the same censorship fights again and again.
Since it was published in 1969, Slaughterhouse-Five has been a repeated target for book burners—sometimes quite literally. In 1973, 32 copies of the book were thrown into the furnace at a high school in Drake, North Dakota, on orders from the local school board after parents complained about the book's sex and profanity. Sensibilities about those things have come a long way in the past few decades, but Vonnegut's novel is still a target. In 2011, a school board in Missouri barred the book from the curriculum and ordered it confined to a special section of the school's library.
The American Library Association says Slaughterhouse-Five was one of the most frequently challenged books of the 20th century.
It is also one of the most important books of that century for its unflinching portrayal of the brutality of war, its unconventional and deliberately meta structure, and its fatalist perspective that nonetheless eschews nihilism. Inspired by Vonnegut's experience as a prisoner of war during the Allied firebombing of Dresden, Slaughterhouse-Five explores the absurdity of mass-scale murder. It asks, but leaves mostly unanswered, the questions about free will and responsibility that recur throughout many of Vonnegut's other works.
In short, it's about a lot more than sex and profanity.
Of course, it has those things too, in ample doses, as the would-be censors point out. But just as Slaughterhouse-Five catapulted Vonnegut to fame, the attempts to ban the book boosted his standing as a critic of all forms of censorship. Vonnegut died in 2007—so it goes—but that crusade lives on through the Kurt Vonnegut Museum and Library in the author's hometown of Indianapolis. The museum includes a library of "banned books," and the foundation behind the operation funds First Amendment advocacy efforts.
The right to express violent and crude thoughts in art is essential. But Vonnegut, cynical and ornery as he could be, always strove to make a deeper point with his vulgarity. "If you were to bother to read my books, to behave as educated persons would, you would learn that they are not sexy, and do not argue in favor of wildness of any kind," he wrote to the Drake school board in 1973. "They beg that people be kinder and more responsible than they often are."
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Slaughterhouse-Five."
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As a left-libertarian who cares deeply about marginalized groups, I only want to ban the most offensive books. Like The Bell Curve.
#AntiRacism101
Oh, and also that anti-trans book by Abigail Something.
#LGBTQIA+
We should probably also ban any book in which the N-word appears — unless the author is Black. My professors told me Black people empower themselves when they say it.
Furthermore, the government should outlaw books that oppose Reason.com benefactor Charles Koch's open borders agenda.
#ImmigrationAboveAll
Maybe we could put ENB in charge of a committee that bans any biology book that portrays a third trimester human fetus as anything more than a clump of cells.
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#FillingInForDaivdBehar
But other than those few exceptions, you're pro-First Amendment, right?
It just needs some common sense regulation, like the Second.
On a roll they/them
Abortion only through the third trimester? You anti-abortion types make me sick.
Abby….. Normal?
If you want to ban books, then you don't understand the point of the article, and you aren't a libertarian.
Slaughterhouse-Five is a great book. I was particularly moved by the first chapter and the author's recall of his dinner with a fellow soldier and prisoner. His promise to the man's wife that he would not make the war or his actions heroic. In the book he writes himself into the story sitting in a latrine experiencing dysentery. No charging a hill in the face of fire, just being sick.
As is always true the book banner will find some reason, like the language or sexuality, to ban books that often offend them due to the subject or the authors portrayal of that subject.
Anyone else get the feeling m4e only made it through the first chapter?
Wouldn't surprise me.
I read the book a zillion years ago, not in school, don't remember when, and don't remember much at all other than having a lot of fun reading it, trying to wrap my mind over whatever convoluted story he was telling, and figuring it was probably not the story I got out of it. Probably ought to read it again, see how much is familiar.
I read a few of his again last year. Way better the second time. The first time I read slaughterhouse was soph year of HS and all I remembered was the bombing and his description of mushroom smells.
Thanks; ordered a copy.
I'm going to do the same.
I've been meaning to reread this one for a lot of years now. I do that with many books from my early years and get something different out of them with my older perspective. The Sun Also Rises is my best example, it definitely changes as I reread it each decade. I'm betting Vonnegut is a great lark to middle aged me.
I had the same experience with The Sun Also Rises. It is quite different to read for enjoyment, rather than as a school assignment.
I’ve done Breakfast of champions two or three times. Blew my tiny teenage brain. Somehow I’ve only managed to read Slaughterhouse and Hocus Pocus, since.
M4a is ideologically aligned with people who would be villains in Vonneguts novels. Same with Orwell and Huxley.
I don’t really see you as a Vonnegut fan. Considering you support the kind of people who seek to create a world similar to ‘Harrison Bergeron’.
Are you sure you have read more Vonnegut than just "Harrison Bergeron"? There is a lot to like in Vonnegut no matter who you are, well unless you are uptight and don't like profanity and sexual references.
I suppose you can favor the antagonists. People in your party consider Orwell’s ‘1984’ to be an instruction manual.
Poo-tee-weet
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Hey, why bother striving for an elitist utopia unless you can proscribe and prohibit ideas? (or at least bad words?)
And if that doesn't work, there's always the reeducation camps.
Book Burners
As recently as 2011, a school board in Missouri barred the book from the curriculum and ordered it confined to a special section of the school's library.
Yeah, that's not book burning. That's not even book banning.
In fact, as much as I enjoyed Slaughterhouse-Five, the book is definitely 18+ and the school board's actions here are prudent.
We've never had so much collusive peacetime political censorship before, but we get articles on nothingburgers like this instead.
New age libertarians spend all their time gasping about THOSE people.
Not assigning playboy to kindergardners is banning
Not assigning
playboykink to kindergardners is banningNot assigning kink to kindergarteners is gender oppression.
Where "kink" is defined as "anything that Ward and June Cleaver wouldn't do"
Didn’t you know june was always bitching at ward for “being to hard on the beaver last night”?
Or ‘Chicks With Dicks Monthly’.
Funny that removing a mandate by a government entity to read something is considered akin to banning it. But such are the times for libertarians and our spokespeople.
They’re not libertarians and they’re definitely not MY spokespeople.
You are exactly right. A real libertarian is a narcissistic asshole who doesn't give a shit outside of their circle of friends.
“Friends “. Like you know what those are.
You’re such a little bitch.
The depth that collectivism has infiltrated the zeitgeist is highlighted in this comment. Even people nominally in the most radical individualist political movement (reason writers) can't seem to get past their learned assumptions and notice things like this.
My high school library had Slaughterhouse Five with no issues. You are a moron, and a false libertarian. Keep worshipping Viktor Orban some more.
"We've never had so much collusive peacetime political censorship before, but we get articles on nothingburgers like this instead."
Exactly what I came to say.
Facebook hiring Dem operative to purposely censor non-progressive ideas, totes ok. - Reason Editors
School boards choosing age appropriate books for school libraries; evil, icky conservatives and their regressive thinking. - Reason Editors.
Leaving a book out of a public or school library is not book banning, it is curation of the collection. Ultimately that is the decision of the owner of library. In my house, that is me. At my local public library it is ultimately the taxpayers.
So long as you can obtain the book if you want to, there can be no question of book banning. But keep in mind, no one is required to publish your book or continue to print it. No one is required to stock your book or to sell it. Curation takes place at every level.
I read Harrison Bergeron as part of a high school class as was impressed so I checked out Slaughterhouse from the school library. I like it so much that I read Cat's Cradle, too. I'm richer than people in book banning towns. Everyone can profit from reading Slaughterhouse.
11 years - hey maybe we will hear something about the Deep State fabricating a coup against our Democracy in another 5
Did Boehm give credit to sarc for first mentioning slaughterhouse five?
Apparently nobody else had quoted Sowell here before. Who knew?
Reminder again to everyone that if you quote Shakespeare, Robespierre, Lenin, Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, Warren Buffet, The Terminator, Friedrich Nietzsche, Homer Simpson, Julius Caesar, George Orwell, Golda Meir, Spinoza or the Bible, you have to credit me. Because I've quoted all of them here before.
Sarcasmic made the rule, I'm just following it.
This list is increasingly looking like 'Shit I read in middle school or high school'.
To kill a mockingbird
Huckfinn
1984
Anything by JD Salinger
Crime and Punishment? I'm sure that's banned by now, since a Russian wrote it.
#LibertariansForGettingToughWithRussianAuthors
#LibertariansForGettingToughWithRussianAuthorsExceptSteeleAndHillary
I recently re-read The Idiot and Brothers Karamazov. The one youth need to read is Бесы (The Demons) usually translated as The Possessed or The Devils in English. Where a group of young pepto-commie revolutionaries discuss how it will probably be necessary to exterminate 30-40 million people
The Possessed when I read it decades ago. Brothers Karamazov probably my favorite novel ever.
Shit, I played 'Jim' in my middle school's theatrical production of Huck Finn.
I could be prime minister of Canada by now.
I don't remember a "Jim". Did he go by any other names?
His mother called him James if he was in trouble.
Dinger?
NOOOOOO, no he did not! Nope, never, no, no, no...
I do not want my kid to read catcher in the rye. Mainly because the writing is trash and the protagonist is a little bitch
^^ what he said.
We finally agree on something.
Indeed!
My high school girlfriend thought that Holden Caufield was awesome. But, now that she's older and wiser, I doubt that she would date him.
You know who else wrote a crappy book which kids shouldn’t be assigned to read?
Karl Marx?
Dr Suess?
"Target of Book Burners"
"barred the book from the curriculum"
"confined to a special section of the school's library."
Hmm
But Boehm thinks deleting Oxford virologists tweets that contradicted the government narrative in 2021 was just the free market in action and nothing to see there.
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You just keep getting better at this.
OBL is one of those rare individuals who knows his expertise and his limits, and refines and improves his skills rather than dilute his brand by branching out. I am in awe.
Yep. Back in the day I almost just muted him, but now I'm so glad that I didn't. Just incredibly well done.
A+
-Reason Editors hardest hit.
She’s doing the campaign fundraising grift now, trying to collect money from suckers that she can use to pay off her debts and curry favors.
No, she is just biding her time and pretending she is going to run for President. Later she will decide not to run and convert all her unspent campaign contributions to personal income as is now traditional.
The IRS knows which side its bread is buttered on:
"Notice the scenario in this IRS recruiting program is “taking down a landscape business owner who failed to properly report how he paid for his vehicles,” not “taking down a billionaire who uses the corporate jet for private trips.”
[video]
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1560663299578298368
“Taking down” a business owner = “customer service “.
NY Governor Was Mum on Pro-Abortion Firebombing. Now She’s Calling Pro-Life Activists ‘Extremists.’
New York governor Kathy Hochul has directed state to investigate pro-life pregnancy centers
Speech un-sanctioned by the establishment is violence
DOWN WITH THE CONSTITUTION!
The Constitution Is Broken and Should Not Be Reclaimed
I don't know why the NYT's so angry, it's not like the establishment is still using it.
Pay attention everyone who says "They can't do what they did in Canada/the UK/Australia/Rwanda here, we've got the Constitution to protect us."
This is one of the official Administration mouthpieces saying that the Constitution is irrelevant. This is exactly the same as when Pravda or People's Daily published policy.
They are going to ignore the Constitution, and their press will ignore their ignoring, and so will the courts. As the election and the actions of the Administration, DOJ and FBI prove, the US government is operating in a state of lawlessness.
The rot is from the beginning. I have a lot of affection for George Washington, who aborted a potential military coup, who was happier as a farmer than a politician, and who set an example of quitting after 2 terms instead of dying in office, which lasted 140 years. But he put down that Whiskey Rebellion without understanding or resolving its causes, and he supported Hamilton.
Anyway, the Constitutional Convention began under a cloud, being advertised as a simple amendment process while being designed from the start to replace the Articles of Confederation; any time you have to lie about what you are doing, you know you are doing something illegal or morally bankrupt, and it was then ratified illegally and illegally replaced the Articles of Confederation. Not a good start.
Then John Adams came along with his Sedition Law blatantly violating the First Amendment only 7 years after it was ratified.
The National Bank -- one of the few things Andrew Jackson got right was vetoing it and paying off the national debt.
Civil War, Lincoln paradoxically starting the war to prevent secession, which was not illegal by the Constitution, which had illegally replaced the Articles of Confederation which had made secession illegal.
And the Progressives came along, freshly educated by the power of a government to kill 800,000 soldiers to eliminate slavery in name but not in fact, a good example for everything politicians have done since, passing bills which do the opposite of their alleged intent.
It's been downhill since the beginning.
Ok.
What does that matter to our current situation?
It's in response to a comment which says "They are going to ignore the Constitution, and their press will ignore their ignoring, and so will the courts."
I'm pointing out it's been continuous since the beginning.
Oh, so no big deal then?
Ho him. All is normal, la-lala-lalala.
How useful.
The Constitution wasn't adopted illegally. When the last state ratified it (they all did), it changed from an interstate compact under the Articles of Confederation and became an amendment to the Articles, as allowed by the latter.
The full name was "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" and has this clause:
Those steps were not followed. In addition, the convention was called under false pretenses, which is all the evidence I need that the callers knew they were doing something dishonest.
And before you claim it was ratified by every state, no, it was accepted after ratification by just 9 states, I believe. The others ratified after the fact, and one was pretty much coerced into ratification, IIRC.
Well, there is a lesson here: compacts, agreements, and laws are only worth anything if they can be enforced.
These complaints are over wrought.
Constitution, which had illegally replaced the Articles of Confederation
Not illegal, as it was approved by state legislatures. The Convention started out to amend the Articles, but evolved as the debates progressed into a complete overhaul. And it was approved as such. No chicanery.
It just might reach a point of truly armed insurrection.
Insurrections against authoritarian governments only work if they are broad based in the culture and in society.
The sad fact is that US society overwhelmingly wants authoritarianism.
And you need bigger fire extinguishers.
The important lesson here is that politics doesn't define culture, it's a consequence of culture.
Once the culture does not support the values expressed in the Constitution anymore, the Constitution will not be upheld anymore. And we're either close to that point or have crossed it.
The Constitution is a living document— LET’S KILL IT!!!
Lol this is too funny.
The author of that opinion piece is literally arguing in favor of populism. That the will of the people should override the rule of elites. In this case the rule of 200 year old dead elites.
So why is he wrong, Mr. Populist?
No, the authors definitely aren't advocating a populist take. How do you even come up with that horseshit from what they wrote?
Break down your claim, chemleft.
Remember, you and you're slimebag top men don't represent the will of the people. The pedophilia, child maiming, authoritarianism, censorship, race baiting, infanticide, junk science, kangaroo courts, body dysmorphia, and slavery you push as popular, aren't.
So that is how you can tell ML lost, when he cannot answer the question, tries to invert the question around, and then conclude with insults.
You're not a populist, you're just a right wing tribalist.
You are inherently dishonest. I grant that you are pretty good at it, but still dishonest.
Your "questions" invariably fall into to "how long have you been beating your wife" category. They are not intended to get information or even to express interest in another's ideas, but rather exclusively intended to drag someone into a mud slinging competition.
You are obviously not stupid. I do wish you would find another hobby rather than this. You might have something of value to contribute if you would stop being intentionally aggravating.
They are not intended to get information or even to express interest in another's ideas, but rather exclusively intended to drag someone into a mud slinging competition.
Towards the right-wing trolls around here like Jesse, ML, R Mac? You bet. Because they have demonstrated by their actions that they are not interested in any level of serious conversation at least with me, their purpose is to troll and inflame. ML literally calls me a Nazi pedophile. There is no reasoning with someone like that. He thinks I am evil and he will never have a good faith discussion with me about anything. So I am absolutely invested in exposing ML as a contemptible fraud. He claims to be a populist but he is not. He is just another right-wing social conservative tribalist who thinks "the people" are "people like him" and no one else.
But see below for an example of what a good faith discussion from me looks like. I disagree with Overt on many things, but he doesn't call me a Nazi pedophile, he doesn't continually insult me, he doesn't post tribalist bullshit. So he gets the good-faith discussion. ML gets the trash and the mud-slinging because that is all he deserves.
If I am treated respectfully, I will treat you respectfully.
If I am treated contemptuously, I will treat you like dirt.
At least they're honest about it, whereas you claim to support the Constitution, but then support violating it at the same time.
"but then support violating it"
What the fuck are you on about?
These people all need to go. I don’t really care if they ride out of town on their horses, or are slung over the back.
"In 2011, a school board in Missouri barred the book from the curriculum and ordered it confined to a special section of the school's library."
Again, Reason is completely off base here. They continue to conflate actual book burnings with people making consumptive choices in the education of their children. And this is because folks like Boehm are so wrapped up in Kulture Warz that they cannot see the real problems at heart.
First, let's be clear that removing a book from a curriculum is not the same as censorship. No curriculum can include every book ever written. Slaughterhouse Five may be a great book to teach, but it stands amongst millions of other great works that could also be taught. The nature of economics is that there aren't enough resources to go around, and we must all choose what to do with what we have. There aren't infinite teachers to teach, and there aren't infinite hours in the day for kids to learn. Choices must be made.
And that is what makes Boehm's article so mushy and confused. By declaring this Missouri school district as wrong, he is attempting to dictate the educational consumptive choices of thousands of students from across the nation. Notice that much of Boehm's article is a defense of the BOOK itself for "its unflinching portrayal of the brutality of war". He isn't arguing against making curriculum decisions (as that is impossible). He is arguing that a book he values be taught to kids.
Suffice it to say, this is not a libertarian position to take.
If libertarianism is going to be a model by which all people live- not just the libertine residents of blue enclaves- then it must tolerate people making their own consumptive decisions. So whether or not Boehm feels like it is important for kids to get "unflinching portrayal[s] of the brutality of war", as a libertarian, he should be defending those people empowered to make the consumptive decisions.
So who ought to be empowered to make these decisions? The education of children is the responsibility and privilege of their parents. Not the state. If a parent doesn't want their kid to read Slaughterhouse Five, or some other book, that is their right. If they want to restrict a kid's access to this book in their free time, it is their right. And if Boehm has a problem with it, it is not because of some libertarian principle, it is because he is just another know-it-all, busybody nanny who thinks he knows how other peoples' children ought to be raised.
The real story here is that a monopolized school system forces parents to express their consumptive choices in zero-sum political battles at the school, district, city, state and federal levels. If there are Parents in this Missouri school district angered by this decision, the libertarian solution is not to defend a single book, but to use it as an example of the evils of a nationalized school system.
But because Boehm is so wrapped up in kulture warz bullshit, he only cares that HIS preferred book is being dropped from a curriculum, not that the US school system is an anti-liberty train wreck. I can guarantee you that if the Missouri School board had added some Intelligent Design nonsense to the curriculum he would be taking the exact opposite stance- that it is wrong for a school to force this backwards stuff on kids. Because Boehm isn't arguing from libertarian principles, he is arguing from this bizarre liberal sensibility masquerading as "Thick Libertarianism". And this is why Boehm's and other "Thick Libertarians" are being rejected across the Libertarian Party.
Thanks. I know I need reminding of this from time to time. Probably others do as well. The Reason staff seems to have never learned it, so a refresher course has nothing to refresh.
I wonder what did this. Trump was probably a good trigger, but something primed the entire staff for it. They have so many
cookseditors spoiling the broth that I no longer know who is in charge; Nick seems to be on the side as videos cook, leaving it a tossup between Matt Welch and Katherine Mangu-Ward. Maybe the move to DC from LA started the slide, or maybe it was a result of the editors changing. Didn't Nick used to live in Cleveland or somewhere non-DC? How long has Matt lived in New York?They need to get out of DC. If that means finding new staff who aren't addicted to DC cocktail policies, that's fine with me. Tuccille is safe in Arizona. Baylen sticks to food. Bailey has drunk too much DC Kool-Aid. The younguns haven't got a libertarian bone in their bodies, only a few words they can parrot now and again.
Great point. Reason has been drowning in the Swamp, and it shows in their leftward lurch.
Nick lived in Oxford, OH, home of Miami U.
Yes. It's the same thinking that we see in Reason's hyperbolic support of transgender curriculum being taught to kindergarten kids. Parents are free to let their kids be exposed to it if they want to. But the vast majority do not believe it's age appropriate for elementary schools. Defending public schools teaching this is not libertarian. It's the opposite. It's called statism.
This got me thinking about teaching things, general and specific, that are largely beyond the ability of kids to truly understand. To paraphrase Clarke, teaching science and technology that can't be comprehended by a given grade level will be perceived as magic. My question is how kids perceive literature that is beyond them--how do they react to the basic content when they don't get the nuance? Is Slaughterhouse 5 just anti-war propaganda? And is that what motivates at least some "banners"?
"And is that what motivates at least some "banners"?"
And is that what motivates people trying to shame a school board 500 miles away into teaching it? Why is it so important for kids to get anti-war messages, learn meta structures, or learn about a fatalist view that still eschews nihilism? Why is that more important than patriotism, or iambic pentameter?
Deciding what education a kid ought to have is like deciding what car you ought to buy or which cancer treatment you ought to receive. It is deeply personal and there are really no right answers, other than giving the individual the maximum choice to choose what fits them best.
A novel that exposes the horrors of war? All Quiet On The Western Front is the New Chopped Liver?
"Deciding what education a kid ought to have is like deciding what car you ought to buy or which cancer treatment you ought to receive. It is deeply personal and there are really no right answers, other than giving the individual the maximum choice to choose what fits them best."
There is no single objective right or wrong answer, you are correct, but nonetheless some answers are better than others.
If your friend said "I can't decide between a Ford and a Chevy, what do you think I should get?" then sure who cares just flip a coin.
But if your friend said "I'm thinking about getting the Deathtrap 5000, what do you think?" then I hope that if you were a good friend, you would counsel him not to buy that particular car.
And there is nothing unlibertarian per se with offering advice, even unsolicited advice. It crosses the line if you were to coerce your friend not to buy the car of his choice even if it was the Deathtrap 5000.
It is the same with this issue. No one in this discussion is advocating coercing parents to teach Slaughterhouse 5 to their kids. But some of us are highly recommending that they do so because we believe it is the better choice compared to not teaching it, all else equal. It doesn't mean that teaching Slaughterhouse 5 is THE objectively correct choice because it's not. It is, in my opinion, a good choice though.
So kids , no matter how young they are, can handle any sort of literature? Or horror movies?
Nope and no one is advocating reading slaughterhouse 5 to toddlers so fuck off.
I’m just asking questions.
Tell that lying piece-of-shit to fuck off.
If some far-left sociopath was acting out Slaughterhouse-five for toddlers, chemjeff would be falling all over himself to make excuses for it.
Of course he would.
Remember the last time you said "No one is doing it to five-year-olds" but it turned out that they were?
There’s not enough genderqueer kink in it for 5yos
"There is no single objective right or wrong answer, you are correct, but nonetheless some answers are better than others."
Better for what? For your view of what makes a "Good Man"? Well, when you are ready to do that, go get yourself a baby momma and get started.
"And there is nothing unlibertarian per se with offering advice, even unsolicited advice. "
But that isn't what is happening here, and was not my argument.
"There is no single objective right or wrong answer, you are correct, but nonetheless some answers are better than others."
I also want to point out that I fear this is why left-leaners like Chemjeff will never be satisfied as libertarians.
Deep down inside these lefties is un unwavering need to fix individuals. Chemjeff's own "Radical Individualism" leads him to mouth platitudes about free choice, while then carping endlessly about how your free choice is stupid, harmful, or not good for libertarianism, or whatever reason he chooses based on whatever preference he has for the day.
The problems with this are twofold:
1) In any libertarian society, you are going to have a broad range of lifestyles, and that society will never survive people constantly getting in each others' shit with this constant toxic judgement.
2) Chemjeff, like many left-leaners, is so unprincipled that when it comes to people living lifestyles his dislikes, he will look the other way when people force his preferred choices on them.
And look no further than this article for proof.
What Boehm has tried to do is conflate a preference choice (We want to teach our kids X, not Y) with a moral imperative (We should not ban/burn books). That is just sloppy.
But Chemjeff ignored that (as he will ignore authoritarians pushing any policy he prefers), and instead demands the right (that was never denied him) to stick his nose in and judge the decisions of educators he will never meet.
This, people, is why we can't have nice things.
Here is the argument in a nutshell.
1. Free people in a free society ought to be free to make their own choices, even bad choices.
2. A certain proportion of people in that free society are going to make bad choices that lead to social problems (homelessness, poverty, etc.) These problems do not just magically go away if we transition to Libertopia.
3. If we do not want to see people suffering, then we ought to help the less fortunate. To convince people to help the less fortunate, moral suasion should be used, not coercion. That is the key difference between the status quo and the libertarian ideal right there.
4. Some people will not be swayed by the moral suasion. Fine. From my perspective, I regard that as one of many bad choices that free people are free to make (see #1). If you don't give a damn, then you shouldn't be forced to give a damn.
But now here is where the conflict arises. Some of the objectors go one step further and not only are they not swayed, they try to claim that the attempts at moral suasion itself are problematic. And further they try to claim that this is what "real libertarianism" ought to be - that people NOT ONLY ought to be left alone free from coercion to do as they please (that's fine - see #4), but ALSO they ought to be free from any moral suasion as well to try to influence their behavior. As if the moral suasion was as objectionable as coercion itself. I was unaware that the NAP was now so suddenly broadened to mean "people should be free from force or fraud or moral arguments that they don't like".
And this is where I strenuously disagree. I am going to try to change your mind. You are free to listen, or to ignore me. You are free to try to change my mind. I am free to listen or to ignore you. But I will not abide by attempts to try to label these moral suasions as themselves unlibertarian, or on par with coercion as something that libertarians ought to object to.
And so this ties in to the current discussion about kids reading books for school. Yes parents ought to be free to choose for their kids the books that they ought to read. They ought to be free to choose Slaughterhouse 5. They ought to be free not to choose Slaughterhouse 5. But the two choices are not morally equivalent. All else equal, *in my opinion*, one choice will lead to worse outcomes than the other. And so I will try to use moral suasion on parents to get them to agree with my point of view. Yes choosing books to read is a consumptive choice just like choosing the food to eat. But choosing to eat broccoli is a different choice than choosing to eat pizza, or choosing to eat poison, even though all of those choices ought to be legal in a libertarian order.
You label any attempt at moral suasion as tyranny (or Christofascism), if it comes from a non-progressive traditional healthy place
"2. A certain proportion of people in that free society are going to make bad choices that lead to social problems (homelessness, poverty, etc.) These problems do not just magically go away if we transition to Libertopia."
This is of course wrong. Homelessness and poverty are not "social problems" of a "free society". Totalitarian regimes, authoritarian regimes, Monarchies and anarchies all have homelessness and poverty.
Homelessness and poverty are default conditions. And they are conditions that are ameliorated when humans can efficiently and freely figure out how to solve one another's problems. One of the best ways to impugn on this efficiency and get in the way of such amelioration is Top Men thinking they no better.
"3. If we do not want to see people suffering, then we ought to help the less fortunate. To convince people to help the less fortunate, moral suasion should be used, not coercion. That is the key difference between the status quo and the libertarian ideal right there."
And here is where Chemjeff proves my point.
Let's just pretend for a moment that you could persuade your way to someone lifting themselves out of poverty. Does anyone anywhere on the internet think that this includes reading Vonnegut? That it is SO crucial that we must ensure complete strangers read it? Of course not.
So we have two possibilities:
1) Chemjeff doesn't actually believe that Missourians reading Slaughterhouse Five will actually end homelessness and poverty, and he is just using it as a thinly veiled excuse to justify petty judging of people from the wrong tribe.
2) Chemjeff actually believes that through some convoluted reasoning that THESE Missourians MUST learn Vonnegut if we are to stop social problems like homelessness and poverty.
And I truly give Chemjeff the benefit of the doubt. He really is JUSTIFYING sticking his nose in other peoples' business because he thinks his instincts are the ticket for some people he has never met to learn to solve "social problems".
This is the Lefty arrogance that will forever frustrate Chemjeff's experience with Libertarians. Deep down in Chemjeff's heart is the conviction that he is smarter than the people of Missouri. To my knowledge, he is not a teacher. He doesn't know what these kids have learned to date. He doesn't even know what books were to be taught instead of Slaughterhouse Five. He has seen a single variable in an infinitely complex system and decided that is enough for him to pass judgement.
Unlike these pessimistic lefties, I have faith in humanity. I have faith that a bunch of parents working with their schools can figure out the way to raise their children. And maybe those kids will be sky-god-worshipping nuts. Maybe they will move to New York and sip lattes. But I know that whatever their hopes, dreams and desires: I trust them making decisions for themselves- including their literature- a fuckton more than random left-leaning Chemjeff or Eric Boehm.
"But I will not abide by attempts to try to label these moral suasions as themselves unlibertarian, or on par with coercion as something that libertarians ought to object to."
I haver never said that they were unlibertarian.
I said that Eric Boehm insisting that Slaughterhouse 5 be taught to kids was "Not a libertarian position to take". It isn't anti-libertarian, and it isn't pro-libertarian. I was arguing that it isn't censorship.
Now if you want to argue that teaching Vonnegut is at all times and all places important to a good society, such that every school district in the nation should teach it and be shamed for declining, then have at it I guess.
But 1) you still aren't making a libertarian argument. and 2) I think that you are probably failing the spirit of a libertarian society where people will have varied cultures and may choose very different literature to solve for the goals of those cultures.
What Boehm has tried to do is conflate a preference choice (We want to teach our kids X, not Y) with a moral imperative (We should not ban/burn books). That is just sloppy.
Every free choice is the expression of one's moral values.
This is simplistic nonsense. I chose vanilla instead of chocolate today. That was really an expression of moral values?
Yet another leftist incompatibility with free choice. The belief that every single choice has a score on the moral scale. This is what allows them to hold that deep down conviction that there is not just an optimal choice, but a MORALLY RIGHT one.
It is why they will forever be nannying busybodies.
Boehm is a guy with an opinion. So are we all. So sue us.
When did libertarianism mean never express one's opinion or offer advice?
If I think you are making a stupid choice, I have every right to point that out if I so choose. Even if you disagree. Even if the choice is not "stupid" by some objective measure. It is just as libertarian to judge your choices as it is not to judge your choices, as long as there is no NAP violation.
"When did libertarianism mean never express one's opinion or offer advice?"
Next time read my argument and respond to it. Boehm is calling personal consumptive choices censorship.
I guess I should clarify. Boehm is taking a school's consumptive choice and conflating it with book burning, bans and other censorship. And that is wrong.
"When did libertarianism mean never express one's opinion or offer advice?"
There is nothing more or less libertarian about giving some advice. But as I note above, that is not what Boehm is doing. He is arguing that a choice to choose other books is wrong on grounds of censorship.
"If I think you are making a stupid choice, I have every right to point that out if I so choose. "
But you if you act as if my choice was a moral imperative rather than just qualitatively bad, then you are making a very poor argument. And that is what Boehm did.
Boehm is lying.
It's really simple to explain when you don't bend over backwards to make excuses and/or attribute good faith when it's been proven over and over and over again that this behavior is not at all coming from an upstanding place.
But you if you act as if my choice was a moral imperative rather than just qualitatively bad, then you are making a very poor argument.
Why?
Suppose in libertopia, where all drugs are legal, I choose to start up a heroin habit. My friend Alice might try to change my mind by pointing out that heroin is an addictive drug that has many deleterious effects on the body. She might also make a moral argument that it is immoral and wrong for me to destroy my own body and throw my life away, a life that God created on this earth for the purpose of doing great things (in her view anyway). Now suppose I choose never to take LSD. My other friend Bob might try to change my mind by pointing out that LSD is a safe non-addictive drug, as far as drugs go. He might also make a moral argument that it is immoral to deny myself the consciousness-awakening experience that LSD offers and therefore remain ignorant of what my "true purpose" is in life (in his view anyway).
Now each of these moral arguments have strengths and weaknesses of their own, as they each rely on a set of moral assumptions that I may or may not agree with (the existence of God, the validity of drugs to determine one's true destiny). But why is it wrong to even offer the argument itself?
That is what I see is the problem here. Boehm and I are making a moral argument about why it's wrong to remove (and literally burn) Slaughterhouse Five from school libraries. Yes we are morally judging the choices of others. That's our right to do and if you disagree then fine. But there is nothing wrong with making the argument itself.
Neither of those is a libertarian argument. Libertarian morals are very simple. Do not violate the NAP.
So make your moral arguments all you want. But when you start posting non-libertarian moral codes in a magazine that is ostensibly dedicated to promoting libertarianism, I'll call you on it.
The libertarian angle to this story is that a monopoly over education by the State is making it difficult for parents to pick and choose the education they wish to consume. If you are instead going to argue that the problem isn't the monopolistic school, but that they chose to force Content A instead of Content B on those people, I'll call you (or in this case) Boehm out on it.
I thought Player Piano was much better anyway.
I thought "Mother Night" was his best.
Ford hikes the cost of a new EV just higher than the new tax credit.
https://justthenews.com/government/congress/ford-raised-ev-prices-8500-ahead-biden-signing-bill-7500-ev-purchase-tax-credit
In other news, senators and congressmen holding Ford stock are looking forward to plump shareholder dividends.
What about Mr. Pelosi?
Always buy what Paul Pelosi's buying.
This is not new. All of the EV car makers have been doing this since the credit first appeared.
So it’s cool?
No, not cool. Also not new.
Nothing to worry about folks! Apparently they've been doing it for a while.
Man, what Austrian influences economists saw this coming? Surely, there hasn't' been books written about this or anything.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/daughter-putin-ally-reportedly-killed-assassination-attempt
Today, the Head of the Presidential Administration in Ukraine, Andrey Yermak, said that, "Our task is to make sure that not only the current generation of Russians, but their children and grandchildren will pay". Eight hours later, Alexander Dugin's daughter Darya was killed.
First I thought she was a child and was horrified, then when I heard she was an adult I didn't care, then when I saw she was rather hot I felt really sad.
I'm a shallow, callous man sometimes. I imagine her dad feels like his soul was ripped out.
NEVER kill off hot chicks. Always gotta watch the ratio.
Pretty sure Reason will be covering covering this blatant attack on 1A shortly. Nah.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/08/read-letter-from-ny-attorney-general-letitia-james-threatening-church-hosting-trump-friendly-event/
Reason heartthrob lost by 37 points. Or maybe a lot more.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/08/18/analysis-if-not-for-democrat-voters-cheneys-loss-would-have-been-even-more-devastating/
You have to give Liz Cheney this: she did a lot to rehabilitate her father, who is now only the second most vile Republican in recent memory.
And how many votes did each Democrat cast?
They tend to vote early, and often.
As Vonnegut said, his books would be impossible to masturbate to
Cite?
Oh yeah?!
Somebody hold my beer...
Ok, but I’m not watching .
We can probably assume SQRLSY has already done this.
https://twitter.com/AnaKasparian/status/1561383484211376128?t=OmpyuI0XXmwmhDrUD3YyJg&s=19
This is a man who was arrested 41 times. After this incident he was released & went on to send a subway worker to the hospital with a broken collarbone. But according to this crime reporter, the man committing assaults/breaking bones is the real victim.
[Link]
Bleeding hearts gotta bleed. Too bad they don't get to actually bleed.
Full background story of Maralago raid.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/08/15/from-bureaucrat-hack-to-grand-jury-witch-hunt-the-dojs-trump-raid-smells-like-spygate/
I think it's pretty clear that the "secret documents" Trump took were documents related to Russiagate and other abuses of power by Democrats and the federal bureaucracy and they are in a panic and want it back.
Trump clearly declassified those documents.
I hope Trump kept backups.
You know he did. October surprise upcoming. You heard it here first.
I certainly hope so. God knows that the GOP is desperately trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Well worth a read.
https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/why-are-we-in-ukraine/
It is a good article, but the whole thing begs the question: is Ukraine a sovereign nation, or not? If it is, then Putin's opinion of Ukrainian control over Crimea matters just as much as Putin's opinion of American control over Boston harbor - which is not at all. Yes the Russian Navy had been based in Crimea for centuries. But it is a part of Ukraine now! Or was until they invaded and forcibly annexed it.
I've actually always though Slaughterhouse Five was basically pro-German apologia
"Hey, the allies fire bombed Dresden, so we were really the bad guys, not the Germans". He also liked to inflate the numbers killed there.
I can see how that could be popular among the hate America first crowd, but it's a pretty sick sense of moral equivalence.
Well, Kurt Vonnegut did have a bit of a potty mouth. Remember that time he said “F- you!” to Rodney Dangerfield over the phone? RUDE!!
"I don't know who wrote this report for you, but they don't know a thing about Kurt Vonnegut!"
Don't these school boards know anything? Put "Slaughterhouse Five" on a "School Board recommended reading list" and see how many kids now want to read it.
When Fiasco came out, a book largely critical of Morgan Stanley's derivatives business, the Barnes & Noble on 5th avenue sold about two or three copies a day for a week, and then suddenly sold out the lot. What had happened was that MS's CEO John Mark circulated a memo criticising and condemning the book. So of course everyone had to buy it.
Mack, nor Mark
Fiasco by Lem was a seriously good book.
I've read a fair amount by Lem, but not that. On the e-pile it goes!
"Don't these school boards know anything? Put "Slaughterhouse Five" on a "School Board recommended reading list" and see how many kids now want to read it."
Trust Shrike to deliberately misconstrue the point. Also trust Shrike (and Boehm) to not understand the concept of age appropriate material.
Fuck off, peasant.
I assume that by now even a moron like you has realised that I am not shrike but in immature delight you continue to call me thus. What a child.
Ok shrike.
This is exactly how shrike responds.
Doubtful.
Are you willing to have a wager on whether I'm shrike?
You respond like Eric Dondero. What does that make you?
Who is Eric Dondero?
I am following David Brin's prescription for dealing with liars.
What a coinkydink, I am following David Brin's prescription for dealing with sockpuppets.
Were Brin ever to have such a prescription, I am sure that one of the first things would be to ensure that you're actually dealing with a sockpuppet.
Are you also interested in wagering? Easy enough to arrange. Or are you just going to continue with your chickenshittery?
Shrike considers his dick to be age appropriate for young children so………….
"This book should not be part of the school curriculum" is not the same as "book burning".
You people are so privileged, pampered, and ignorant that you really don't know the difference, do you?
Although I wonder what the special section was and how freely students are able to access it.
I didn’t know US educational institutions have спецхраны in their libraries. How tres sovietique!!
The book probably shouldn't be covered in the school curriculum at all, and it probably shouldn't be present in the school library either. It is difficult to see what educational purpose it serves in K-12.
High school kids can handle it. And it’s preferable to them spending hours on the Tik Tok.
“In short, some of the least qualified students, taught by the least qualified professors in the lowest quality courses supply most American public school teachers.” —Thomas Sowell
DOH!!!!!!
https://youtu.be/ykU5UIG2fmo
Seems like yet another of our glorious democratic institutions has failed us.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/census-bureau-admits-overcounting-7-blue-states-just-1-red-state
"Census Bureau Admits Overcounting 7 Blue States, Just 1 Red State
All but one of the states overcounted is a blue state, and all but one of the undercounted states is red.
Those costly errors will distort congressional representation and the Electoral College. It means that when the Census Bureau reapportioned the House of Representatives, Florida was cheated out of two additional seats it should have gotten; Texas missed out on another seat; Minnesota and Rhode Island each kept a representative they shouldn’t have; and Colorado was awarded a new member of the House it didn’t deserve.
These harmful errors also mean billions in federal funds will be misallocated. Funding for many federal programs is distributed to the states based on population. Overcounted states will now receive a larger share of federal funds than they are entitled to, at the expense of the undercounted states.
The Census Bureau has not explained how it got the 2020 census so wrong. This is particularly troublesome because the bureau reported an error rate of 0.01 percent in the 2010 census—an overcount of only 36,000 people, a statistically insignificant mistake.
The 2020 errors were discovered through the “2020 Post-Enumeration Survey.”
After each census, the bureau interviews a large number of households across the country and then compares the interview answers with the original census responses. The 2020 survey showed that the bureau overcounted the population in Delaware, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Utah. The largest mistake was in President Joe Biden’s home state of Delaware, which was overcounted by 5.45 percent.
The states whose populations were undercounted were Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Texas. The largest error in the undercount was in Arkansas, where the population count was off by 5.04 percent.
The original census reported that Florida needed only 171,500 more residents to gain another congressional seat. Yet the survey shows that Florida was undercounted by over three-quarters of a million people. The bureau also said that Texas needed only 189,000 more people to gain another congressional seat. The survey shows that Texas was undercounted by 560,319 residents.
Minnesota, according to the original census report, would have lost a congressional seat during reapportionment if it had 26 fewer residents; the survey shows the state was overcounted by 216,971 individuals. Similarly, Rhode Island would have lost a seat if the Census Bureau had counted 19,000 fewer residents. It turns out that the state was overcounted by more than 55,000 individuals.
Unfortunately, the federal statutes governing the census and apportionment provide no remedy to correct this problem. And it would be very difficult to devise an acceptable remedy this far after the fact."
So until at least 2030 red states will be underrepresented and blue states will be overrepresented. Pretty sure Reason will be all over this bald faced assault on our sacred democracy. Nah.
At least until 2030...
Yes yes.
All a deliberate plan by Team Blue to manipulate the Census.
Nothing to do with the challenges of trying to conduct a census in the middle of a pandemic. Nothing to do with Trump's attempt to manipulate the census himself. It was all a deliberate conspiracy.
It's zerohedge. What did you expect?
"All a deliberate plan by Team Blue to manipulate the Census."
Weren't you clowns accusing Trump of exactly this but with illegal immigrants last month?
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/7/20/2111512/-Newly-released-memos-reveal-Trump-s-plan-to-manipulate-the-2020-census-and-exclude-immigrants
One can always figure out what you Democrats are up to by what you accuse your enemies of doing.
I’m glad you read that trash so I don’t have to. I hate to even give them one click.
COVID!
Donkeys were shouting about including illegal aliens. So, yes, a conspiracy to produce a fraudulent count.
"mistake"
It was a pun…No, no, not a pun—what’s that other thing that reads the same backwards as forward?
Since outcompeting Reason with the written word was so easy, I decided to beat them at podcasting as well.
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/audible-screaming-1#
With transcription AND cute kitty video.
I am generally a fan of Vonegut. "Welcome to the Monkey House" and "God Bless you Mr. Rosewater".
That said, with the exception perhaps of the Library of Congress, all libraries are curated since they obviously can't have EVERY book. The owners of each library have the right to choose what books will be included and which books will not.
In particular there can be good reasons for curation, a perfectly fine book might not be age appropriate for a particular school library for example.
Leaving a book out of a public or school library is not book banning, it is curation of the collection. Ultimately that is the decision of the owner of library. In my house, that is me. At my local public library it is ultimately the taxpayers.
So long as you can obtain the book if you want to, there can be no question of book banning. But keep in mind, no one is required to publish your book or continue to print it. No one is required to stock your book or to sell it. Curation takes place at every level.
I read Slaughterhouse Five as a freshman in college. I don't particularly recall any sex or profanity. Probably was, but it wasn't central to the story and so I don't remember it. Did not make an impact in other words. And thus, people fretting that it would make an impact on kids only one year younger is bullshit.
I do recall I got a D on my paper. The professor wanted me to regurgitate her lecture notes, which I didn't. Sigh. I learned a lot about the closed mind in that class.
Some parents dont want their kids exposed to sex, profanity, and violence IN SCHOOLS. Im not sure I have a problem with this. The parents are free to let them read it outside of school. And besides, kids STILL suck at reading, writing, and math, so maybe focus on that instead of philosophy.
Vonnegut? Didn't Thornton Melon fire that guy?
So the plan is to get kids interested in Slaughterhouse Five? Similar to the way DARE gets them interested in drugs.
I sat behind Mr. Vonnegut once on the Hampton Jitney (back in the late ‘80’s). I contemplated engaging him in discussion (I had read Player Piano and Breakfast of Champions)…but had the self awareness that that my level of intellectualism was minus-twelve on a scale of one-to-ten and I probably would just annoy him. He looked kind of down and with his recent history I was also afraid that i would be the last person to talk to him. So I sat there on the bus for two hours staring at the back of his curly-haired head. We both disembarked at mid-town. I followed him for a block to make sure he didn’t step in front of a moving taxi cab.