Pelosi's Trip to Taiwan Might Be Good for Her Legacy, but It's Bad for Everyone Else
Nancy Pelosi’s presence in Taipei will not magically make Taiwan more secure from Chinese invasion.
Why is House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D–Calif.) in Taiwan? It's not, apparently, at the direction of the Biden administration, which smacked down the proposal when Pelosi's office began floating it last month. "I think that the military thinks it's not a good idea right now," President Joe Biden said then. Congress is a coequal branch of government with the executive, of course, and Pelosi can travel wherever she chooses. But just because she can go doesn't mean she should.
Pelosi's trip is needless and reckless, with obvious downsides and no clear upside. In fact, the best possible result of this visit is maintenance of the status quo. The worst possible result is unspeakably grim.
The Chinese government has been testy about the Pelosi plan from the moment the idea was raised. Other U.S. officials have visited the independent, democratic island which Beijing claims as its own, including a surprise trip by a contingent of lawmakers this past May. But Pelosi became the highest-ranking American to travel to Taipei in 25 years when she landed there Tuesday night, and Beijing has insisted its military "won't sit by idly" if Pelosi and her contingent threaten China's "sovereignty and territorial integrity."
The extent of that response remains to be seen. Even before Pelosi landed in Taipei, Taiwan reported a DDoS attack, which overloads a website with automated traffic so it can't be easily accessed by real users, on its presidential and foreign ministry sites. More troubling than that is China's suspension of imports on Monday from dozens of Taiwanese baking businesses. "I learned about the ban before I got off work last night," a manager at a targeted food company told Reuters for a report published Tuesday, adding that he'd heard other "food companies saying their products had been rejected at China's customs already."
Then there's the question of military action. After the May visit, Beijing sent 30 warplanes flying into Taiwan's Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ), a fairly mild escalation of what has become a regular practice since early 2021, usually with fewer jets at once. Throughout this year, Taiwan has been preparing its air raid shelters in case a similar incursion turns violent. And as Pelosi's plans took shape, the Chinese Navy "announced additional military exercises in the South China Sea and live-fire drills in the Bohai Sea, near the Korean Peninsula, this week," while the Taiwanese government reported multiple Chinese military flights which entered the ADIZ on Monday and Tuesday but did not cross the Taiwan Strait.
We can condemn Beijing's policy while also recognizing that it is a direct reaction to Pelosi's trip. It's a classic example, in fact, of the "security dilemma," which Harvard University international relations professor Stephen M. Walt explains at Foreign Policy as "how the actions that one state takes to make itself more secure—building armaments, putting military forces on alert, forming new alliances—tend to make other states less secure and lead them to respond in kind."
"The result," Walt continues, "is a tightening spiral of hostility that leaves neither side better off than before."
That's exactly what's happening here. Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, which is not forming a new alliance but certainly making a show of Washington's support for Taipei against Beijing, is perceived as a threat by China, which answers with threats of its own. "Each side's efforts to deal with what it regards as a potential security problem [have] merely reinforced the other side's own security fears," Walt writes, "thereby triggering a response that [has] strengthened the former's original concerns." That China's government is authoritarian and genocidal and ought to leave Taiwan alone doesn't change the reality of this dynamic, however much we might wish it did.
So why is Pelosi in Taiwan? The most probable reason may simply be burnishing her legacy. She has a long record of criticizing Beijing, is expected to lose her speakership after the midterms this November, and, at 82, is surely nearing retirement.
But whatever Pelosi's personal justification for the journey, it's not helping anyone else. This is a photo op, a symbolic gesture. The speaker's presence in Taipei will not magically make Taiwan freer or more secure from Chinese invasion. If anything—insofar as her plans have escalated the war of words between Washington and Beijing and led to Chinese shows of strength—she has made Taiwan less secure and heightened the risk of a U.S.-China war. It's an irresponsible, myopic, and, hopefully, soon-forgotten mistake.
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This article doesn’t exist. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Zzzz
Literally nobody complained that Reasons wasn’t covering Pelosi enough, but sarc’s had a lot of Kahlua in his coffee today and is feeling trolly.
Be kind, he got a prolapsed colon again.
Is Kahlua a euphemism for MD 20/20?
He doesn’t start chugging the MD till after breakfast.
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Is Kahlua a euphemism for MD 20/20?
It’s the one that bites! So you guys just sit around comment here all day and don’t drink? I have to drink just to read the comment section.
Poor sarc.
Hey look, sarc’s reaction to an article about a Dem doing something stupid was a criticism of the right!
Whoever could have seen that coming?
Which retarded reason author do you think he is?
Nah, there’s a billion people whose only animating perspective is hating the right. Small minded people need something to hate to validate their own virtue, that’s why propaganda works. The chances of it being a sock are small.
Says the third most hostile person in these here comments.
Says the third most hostile person in these here comments.
Maybe I’m the third most hostile person to sarc which is all that matters to him. Certainly in a broader sense sarc is more generally hostile than I.
But I am amused the guy who brags he’s only here to be an asshole to others pretends to believe hostility is inherently wrong. When will he apply this new belief to himself?
I missed his answer to my earlier question though: is attributing to one commenter statements made by another a problem? If so why does sarc do it? If not, why does he whine about others doing it to him?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Doubt it. Inquiring minds have better things to think about.
It’s greatly amusing, but not at all surprising, that those who merely repeat others’ talking points think they are independent thinkers.
Still waiting for sarc to choose a single principle. So far he’s both for and against every one depending on whether it helps him in the moment.
Talking about me in third person. The trolls really dig that shit. You won a lot of points for that one.
I’d love to keep chatting, but unlike retired grumps like yourself I really need to go to bed.
Enjoy your Viagra and porn!
Ideas!
Inquiring minds may be wondering why Marshal take personal offense at any criticism of Republicans and why he assumes that such criticism is proof that the other person is a Democrat.
They may be wondering if Marshal reacts to criticism of his shitty pickup truck to be proof that the person owns a Prius, voted for Biden, and hates America.
Inquiring minds may be wondering why Marshal take personal offense at any criticism of Republicans
Not only am I not offended by criticizing Reps my point is that your irrelevant and fantasy based criticism of Reps whenever Dems do something stupid reveals your own bias and motives. So why do you continue to lie that the issue is “any” criticism of Reps rather than your consistent effort to turn any thread critical of Dems into a thread critical of Reps? If reality supported your accusation you wouldn’t have to lie about the evidence.
Ooh, ooh, give us the Top 10
Sarc’s barely literate. If anyone is a Reasonista here it’s White Mike.
Barely literate? That’s a new one. Did you and your troll buddies need a study group to come up with that gem?
No, not criticism of the right. Criticism of you personally and the rest of the idiots here who whine and cry and bitch and moan and complain every day over and over about how Reason never says anything critical of Democrats, as well as a prediction that you will insist that this article, like all Reason articles critical of Democrats, does not exist.
None of this is a reasonable characterization of my comments, I criticize Reason when I disagree about something. But sarc doesn’t care about reality, he reacts to the fantasy world he has created in his mind. While he whines when others lump him in with other critics he does exactly that whenever it’s convenient, which is often since he can’t effectively rebut the specific criticisms I made and must hide behind this generic bullshit.
What a pathetic and useless sack of shit.
I criticize Reason when I disagree about something.
Then why did you take my comment so personally? The only explanation for you getting pissy is that I hit too close to the truth.
Then why did you take my comment so personally?
If someone says the earth is flat do I have to take it personally to object? What a strange belief, but sarc ‘s mind believes reality conforms to his fantasies and thus this must be true.
The only explanation for you getting pissy is that I hit too close to the truth.
Certainly that’s the only explanation your mind can fathom. Most others are capable of more.
The ruling elite are gods, addicted to control, but out of control. And their victims are their supporting majority, and the dissenters who just want to be free to run their own life and let you run yours. Is that too much to ask? Evidently, it would create chaos, or so they claim. So, what about the chaos we have now? If the majority refuse to see it (willful blindness?) it will get worse until it destroy all, including the innocent dissenters.
rather not kiss china’s boot
82 is young. She’s looking at another 18 active years.
Taiwan has been independent for nearly as long, 77 years.
Before then, it was ruled by Japan for about 50 years. Before then…
The various Chinese dynasties ignored Taiwan until the Mongol conquest (Yuan dynasty), when some survivors of the previous dynasties fled to Taiwan. The Mongols established just enough control over Taiwan to ensure the refugees weren’t raising an army to come back. When the Yuan dynasty was overthrown, some survivors fled to Taiwan and the Ming dynasty took nominal control of the island, and so on through the successor dynasties. None of these really ruled the island until the late 19th century, when the Qing (Manchurian) dynasty organized a provincial government for the island, then sold it to Japan. Japan ruled it (harshly) until 1945, when the Allies (mainly the US) gave it back to Nationalist China. In a few years, the Communists overthrew the Nationalists, who fled to Taiwan. And it’s been an independent country ever since in reality, although both the Nationalists and the mainland government pretended it was still somehow part of China.
In summary: Taiwan was independent (and probably divided among many tribes) and ignored by the Chinese for millenia. The first mainland government presence was founded by the Mongols, not Chinese. The first effective rule was founded by the Manchurians, not Chinese, and in hindsight seems like just dressing up the island for sale to Japan. Other foreigners reclaimed the island for one of the mainland governments, but soon it was independent again. It’s an independent country.
Like Biden!
Congress is a coequal branch of government with the executive, of course.
It is not, and was never meant to be. The Legislature is dominant. This coequal bullshit is a Wilsonian invention.
Fuck all “strong leaders” always and everywhere. And fuck the people that wish to follow strong leaders.
I get the coequal branch of government argument that Biden cannot tell her what to do. But, as commander in chief, why is he letting her use military aircraft?
He doesn’t have to. Something is very strange about all of this.
What is strange is that Biden is so weak as POTUS that he let himself be embarrassed by another old fart.
Actually, the whole point is *not* coequality, it’s checks and balances. It’s like saying the brakes on your car are supposed to be coequal to the accelerator.
Even moving past that, Pelosi is not the legislature. She’s free to fly to Taiwan as a private person and, even then, flying to Taiwan to pump your NVidia chip stock before you dump it is highly suspect.
Pauly P already sold it at a loss. I think he shorted it.
Because we all know from history, appeasing aggressive foreign powers is the best game plan, it never encourages them by showing weakness.
It worked for Ukraine, right Obama?
“The 1980s called “
We can condemn Beijing’s policy while also recognizing that it is a direct reaction to Pelosi’s trip.
In a sense, but this is truly akin to saying “the boyfriend wouldn’t have beaten his girlfriend if she would have just listened.” This realpolitik shit is ridiculous. There’s a middle ground between being hawkish and this sort of foreign policy where we do nothing but fear retribution from bad state actors.
Not really. It’s more like saying “the boyfriend wouldn’t have beaten his girlfriend if she hadn’t just posted a joke on Facebook about his tiny penis.” Two wrongs don’t make a right – but it’s also true that the second wrong being bigger doesn’t turn the first wrong into a right.
Translation – We should not ‘do nothing’ because we fear retribution but at the same time, the ‘something’ we do should have a value that justifies the risk. Pelosi’s personal photo op is not a good reason to take even a tiny risk.
In and of itself, how is a US official in high office visiting Taiwan a wrong in an objective sense?
Taiwan is a de facto independent country. The Communist mainland China regime has never ruled it, and Taiwan has not been under the control of a mainland government for around 150 years.
A foreign visit in defiance of the State Department (that is, the President) is a “wrong” because it complicates international relations – a responsibility that the Constitution puts squarely in the responsibility of the Executive branch, not the Legislative.
That’s true regardless of the fact that the ideal state of independence you describe has never actually existed, invalidating your unstated assumptions.
Exactly.
LOLNOPE. Literally nothing wrong with what Pelosi did.
You mean like Jane “Hanoi” Fonda?
But what if he DID have a tiny penis?
Like Chinese tiny?
A tiny chinee chubby?
It is the making of the joke that is the wrong. To most folks, it would be a worse wrong if it’s based on the truth.
We’ll have to wait for what the official “factcheckers” say. If the boyfriend has a “D” behind his name there will likely be a disclaimer added to the post saying that it “lacks context” because “coming out of a pool causes shrinkage.” See Constanza, George.
Exactly. It’s a risk taken to accomplish … what?
We could have just gone with our usual saber rattling in response to that of another nuclear state.
“The U.S. and South Korean militaries launched eight ballistic missiles into the sea Monday in a show of force matching a North Korean missile display a day earlier that extended a provocative streak in weapons demonstrations.”
Exactly right. It’s this attitude that got us here in the first place. We could have given Taiwan official recognition at the same time we recognized the People’s Republic, and we wouldn’t be in this mess. It’s decades of not wanting to “provoke” the Chinese that has emboldened them and legitimized their claims.
They aren’t going to attack Taiwan because of anything we do. They will attack Taiwan when they assess that it’s in their interest to do so, because the benefits outweigh the costs. A sensible policy is to continuously demonstrate that the costs of trying would be catastrophic.
Incidentally, the whole theory of a “security dilemma” has been heavily criticized. (I think the critiques are right, and that so-called “realist” IR scholars have a shockingly poor grasp of behavioral economics and a general lack of common sense.) But even on its own terms, the theory doesn’t apply under these circumstances because a key precondition is that the parties can pose a serious first strike threat. The whole premise is that states can’t distinguish between “defense” spending and threats. But we can give Taiwan every weapon in our arsenal short of nukes, and they still will not pose a threat to China.
I’d rather it be someone (anyone) else going. But that said, we’re not doing anyone in the region(or ourselves) any favors giving a shit what Xi thinks of this. They’ve been threatening us and Taiwan non-stop for decades. It’s what they do. Our visit isn’t going to start this thing any sooner that they want to do it.
Of course, we need to give a shit what they think:
(a) They have a nuclear arsenal;
(b) Unlike Russia, they have a conventional military that rivals ours.
Do they give a shit what we think?
(a) We have a nuclear arsenal.
(b) Unlike Russia, we have a conventional military that rivals theirs.
they can sacrifice their population 2 for 1 in any kind of war and still end up ahead.
That being said… why should their delusion inform practicsal decisions in the US – UNLESS- it is believed they are willing to act on the above mentioned population gamble.
Hehe. Maybe that’s why the Chinese Communists built those empty cities. Decoys for our nuclear bombs.
The PLA is large, relatively well funded, and has a good bit of fancy arsenal.
It looks quite formidable on paper.
But it is completely untested.
Unlike the US and Russia, China’s current military has no experience of anything beyond drilling, training, and parading.
The last time China undertook any real hostilities was 50 years ago, and it didn’t go well.
China might have a very capable and formidable fighting force despite the lack of experience. Or they might have a paper tiger that proves itself inept and crumbles after first contact.
The risk of the latter is far greater than the potential gain of taking action right now. Their military serves best at the moment as an unproven deterrent.
Hey, Nardz! Speaking of Putin’s Russia, look what he’s trying to do to get back Russian defectors!
Watch: Bizarre Russia Ad Lures Expats by boasting of Little Girls and “No Cancel Culture”
https://boingboing.net/2022/08/02/watch-bizarre-russia-ad-lures-expats-with-little-girls-and-no-cancel-culture.html
Andrei Sakharov, Mikhail Baryshnikov, and Yakov Shmirnoff wouldn’t have gone in for this shit. They were and are good people who lived with what real “cancel culture” Gulag style is. But QAnon might be following “bread crumbs” to Putin’s door.
We’ll know for sure when the next meme from Russia is #Vladamir_Putin_did_not_kill_himself! 🙂
I wouldn’t be boasting like you, considering that we’re the ones allowing drag queens to read books to children, some of them even doing it with sexual suggestive behavior.
“Unlike Russia, they have a conventional military that rivals ours.”
AhahahahahhahahaHahahahahhahahaHahahHhaHHHhAa
Unlike Russia, they also throw massive fits about everything, all the time. Constantly. Chinas foreign policy (especially under Xi) is hamfisted as hell. And to actually be bullied into submission by it isn’t going to lead anywhere better.
If they mean to start WWIII, They’re going to do it when they’re good and ready. It has nothing to do with us showing Taiwan some sort of recognition (transitory or otherwise).
+
We could have given Taiwan official recognition at the same time we recognized the People’s Republic
No, we couldn’t have, and can’t, because Taiwan doesn’t recognize it’s own independence.
“Taiwan” to this day refers to itself as “The Republic of China” because they still don’t recognize the CCP as the legitimate ruler of China, and rather see themselves as the legitimate government in exile.
Not only does Taiwan claim to be the legitimate government of all of China, they claim land in other countries as well.
If Taiwan wants to give up its claims of sovereignty over anything outside of the island itself, there would be little reason not to recognize its independence, but at the moment “recognizing” Taiwan means acknowledging two different “governments of China” that are still nominally in a state of civil war.
Taiwan “claims” those things because the PRC has let it be known that if Taiwan stops claiming them, and instead starts calling itself the independent nation of Taiwan, they will be attacked, and Taiwan doesn’t want to risk that. It’s a bizarre situation, but that’s the way it is.
Um… child… Red China has attacked Taiwan no end of times. Fear of the communist State turning into Trinitite has been an effective deterrent in recent decades. CNN’s writ does not run in Taiwan, the ancient opium and coca farm every looter State covets like it does Afghanistan is evidently as intractable–especially since they’ve had front-row seats to Hong Kong turning into a slave pen.
Oh tell us, where is this war happening? Where are all those reports and pictures that are comparable to what’s happening in Ukraine? Get your mind straight.
100 Frickin Percent Right!
Her legacy of Stalinist show trials and banana republic impeachments over trivialities?
Plays really well to the “anyone but Trump” crowd.
At least while she’s there, she’s not here.
Worth the risk of a war with the Communists to gain a few days of peace at home.
China is acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. We should not give in. Good for Pelosi.
Yep, sending in 80 yo drunk should deter them.
Well, then, you and the other Power Nannies should fly straight to Beijing and send China for a timeout.
Yes and no.
The whole one-China thing is dumb, and should be dropped.
But they are not wrong, if they consider Taiwan to be part of their defensive territory, to object to Pelosi entering their airspace in a U.S. military aircraft.
Pelosi insists on having her own military jet. Do you expect her to wait in line in an airport with the plebs?
Well, even in first class on a commercial flight, she wouldn’t be able to have her hair done. So, military it is.
Despotic rulers have always used the military, personnel and equipment, to prop up their power.
Why not? They think the Galapagos are their islands too.
My point is, why couldn’t she have flown to Taiwan in a private jet, or even in first class on a commercial flight.
You really don’t know what is going on, do you?
the last 80 years of history say that Taiwan isnt part of their anything.
Ukraine says hi.
I have no idea why Pelosi does anything other than “it’s politics” (from the Greek “poly” for many, and “tick”, a blood-sucking pest).
But having announced it, the US can’t back down. It’s extremely unlikely that China will start an actual war over anything so trivial, they know that everybody knows it, and while Xi hates losing face, he’s the one made the damn fool statement about starting war, let him learn the lesson.
In my libertopia, there would be no embassies, ambassadors, treaties, no governmental foreign relations period. If some damn fools want to go hiking near the Iraq-Iran border, let the Iranians kidnap them; not the government’s business. If a government official wants to tweak Xi’s nose with a stupid propaganda visit — not the government’s business. If Xi wants to shoot down her plane — let her kin file murder charges and sue for damages — not the government’s business.
Fuck politicians, fuck their government.
Trivial is in how you see it.
The Communists see it as as invasion; uninvited agents of the US Government coming into their country without a visa or anything.
And, the actual government of Taiwan sees it differently. And thus, allows it.
Or should they just cave completely to their mainland overlords?
If I decide someone walking along the sidewalk by my house is an invasion, do I get to attack them? Or am I just being unreasonable?
The CCP claim over Taiwan is only slightly more nuanced. They have never had governing control of Taiwan, nor have they ever had the legal right to determine who visits there. If anything in this visit represented a change in actual us policy, you’d have a point, but it didn’t. China can declare whatever it wants as an “invasion,” but accepting their definitions just because they see it that way gives them control which they already attempt to abuse.
If Xi wants to shoot down her plane — let her kin file murder charges and sue for damages -”
and how would those damages be collected, maybe by a government big enough to enforce such suits. it takes government force for libertopia to function
No different than any other citizen being murdered in a foreign country.
One way to tell a government is too big for its britches is when it elevates its agents in importance over mere subjects.
I would prefer your libertopia, but we still need omnipotent angels who would smite any bad actors trying to fuck with others beyond their borders.
How dare someone fuck with our oppressors!
Angel’s do not exist, M’Lady, but ABMs and killer satellites do.
Yes. The U.S. is overly militaristic. But it’s not like that means we should just sit back and sing Kumbaya.
Cokeville would like to have a word with you.
Speaker Pelosi apparently didn’t check with disaffected, superstition-addled, timid, faux libertarian right-wingers before deciding where to travel.
Nobody here checks with the asshole bigot.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
You need a Cunty Nasty Travel Guide to tell you where to go, Rev. Artie.
Carry On, Clinger to the wheel-well! Don’t get your cape caught in the jet’s drive shaft or you’ll be another Isadora Duncan!
So why is Pelosi in Taiwan?
Because democrats are getting slaughtered in 3 months. Now that Bad Orange Man is gone, they can pretend to be tough on China in a vain effort to rally the working class to the polls.
Bingo.
“Because democrats are getting slaughtered in 3 months. ”
Do you predict Republicans will take the Senate?
Which of New Jersey’s — oops, sorry, Pennsylvania’s — Mehmet Oz, Georgia’s Hershel Walker, or Arizona’s Blake Masters do you expect to win?
Two months ago, Republicans were a 3-2 favorite to take the Senate. Today, it’s close to 3-2 in the Democrats’ favor, and Republicans are losing ground roughly every day.
The races for governor seem roughly split, with Democrats likely to win in educated, modern states and Republicans likely to win in the can’t-quite-keep-up states.
Republicans seem likely to take the House, but mostly because of gerrymandering and structural amplification of yahoo votes — the Republican lead nationally on the generic ballot is two-tenth of one percent (44.3. to 44.1), and falling.
So sad. So broken.
…so what?
stop believing the polls. they all lie.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
That doesn’t make sense. Being tough on China isn’t a working class issue.
Yeah, why would the working class hate China?
You make shrike look smart.
You misspelled that.
Being tough on China isn’t a woking class issue.
China’s working sozialist arbeiters have elections?
What happened to Russia? Isn’t it the evil empire Du jour?
Shouldn’t we send Pelosi to the Ukraine to save the Democrat party from those faithless ex-communist (unlike the Chinese Communist who are at least semi faithful to Marx)?
How can any good progressive stand turn against their Chinese comrades?
And to distract from her husbands trial and her inside trading. Honestly China’s probably making a stink to distract from its banking crisis more than our of a sincere objection, too. They barely mentioned it when the EU vice president visited lady month. So it works out well for both Pelosi and China politically. Shame on the rest of us for giving such nonsense credence.
Good for her legacy? You mean her estate?
As in her hubs just threw millions into chip stocks right before chips act passes, and she goes to Taiwan, where all the semiconductors for chips come from, and is essentially giving us a master class in political corruption / insider trading?
I wouldn’t say that’s great for her legacy. Will be great for the fortunes she will pass on to each of her children though.
Next up, Hunter Biden travels to Ukraine in a show of U.S. support by the administration.
I think Pelosi’s decision to visit was very appropriate and applaud her for doing it.
Constantly cowering and pandering to China as a national policy is getting a little stale.
Why couldn’t she express America’s commitment to Taiwan in a press statement or something. Why does she have to fly into what they consider their airspace in a military jet to make her statement?
She’s looking after her investments.
Unfortunately, once the idea of her visit became public and the PRC mouthpiece threatened the Speaker, the US would have been foolish to acquiesce to those threats (“lost face” in the Chinese mumbojumbo of psychology and superstition).
No appeasement of dictators, regardless of whether they call themselves President or Chancellor!
GT,
You do realize that nearly no country recognizes the Taiwan government as the government of China and that under the one China policy of all these nations.
Pelosi violated Chinese airspace just to make Biden look weak.
I don’t think that’s the reason. If it was, it wasn’t necessary. Biden can look weak all by his own self.
All parties involved need to grow up and realize the world as it is: Taiwan is not part of China, nor is it actually run by a government in exile – Taiwan has functioned for 70 years as an independent nation. The “One-China Policy” is a fraud. Any attempt at peaceful reunification has been poisoned by Beijing’s acts in Hong Kong, and only a fool would think that the Taipei government has a Chinaman’s chance of retaking the mainland.
And I’ll stand by my comments, if Pelosi hadn’t gone after the PRC threats, it would have just caused the PRC to push even harder.
She did not violate Chinese airspace, the PRC isn’t yet so bold as to claim Taiwanese airspace as their own. But they’ll try that trick in a few years no doubt.
Is it even normal for congressmen to make official diplomatic visits overseas?
Official diplomatic visits? No. You have to have diplomatic credentials for that and those are only issued through the State Department.
Fact-finding trips? Yes. Those require no special credentials.
Fact-finding trips over the objection of the State Department (which is to say, the President)? No.
Yes, the State Department has a strong hand in these sort of things. And it doesn’t make much difference which Party happens to hold the Presidency. It runs foreign relations the way it sees fit and doesn’t like it when a President has different ideas. And wasn’t it just last week that Brandon (the State Department) talked with China? Probably smoothed the trip out with a little behind the scenes quid pro quo or what not.
Yes. It’s very common. Foreign governments understand our separation of powers, and they understand what members of Congress can and can’t do. Crucially, Congress decides what weapons Taiwan can have.
There’s also an important symbolic purpose to members of Congress visiting our allies. It demonstrates that the ally has popular support in the United States. Every country on earth has contacts with the U.S. Department of State, so their presence doesn’t prove anything. When members of Congress go abroad, as this article notes, they’re trying to score political points at home. But the fact that they can win those points is a way of proving to dangerous international actors that they shouldn’t underestimate America’s willingness to stand by the ally.
Yes, I should clarify that these trips are not “official diplomatic visits,” but that’s semantics. That is precisely what they’re doing.
She could have gone when it was not a direct embarrasment of POTUS. She is just arrogantly pathetic in this action.
This POTUS deserves to be embarrassed. Lord knows he’s embarrassing.
Lol. The only thing I care less about than embarrassing the CCP is embarrassing POTUS.
Fanatical gringo prohibitionists have for over a century visited banana republics to cultivate economy-wrecking prohibitionist legislation. How else to keep them barefoot and subservient? Bert Hoover called it the “Good Neighbor Policy,” and lookit what an economic success story Prohibition and The Great Depression were for America! They’d be crazy not to want to import that over and over again.
Um, wut? Where did that come from?
Yeah. Sounds a lot like the kind of crap my college dorm mates used to spout after getting higher than a kite smoking weed. And worse, they really thought they’d said something profound.
Pelosi published a rather formal opinion piece in today’s Washington Post where she laid out reasons for the visit and various critiques of China.
If you think she did this on her own, at odds with the White House and Biden in particular, then I have various plots of swampland and bridges to sell you.
This is clearly an administration effort.
I’ve always had a soft spot for the Brooklyn Bridge.
How much is a deed by George Parker Worth now?
Exactly.
China threatens with big stick. We send Pelosi Porridge.
Neener, neener, neener. My daddy can kick your daddy’s butt.
Lets really piss them off by inviting Taiwan to be the 51st state!
I think the Taiwanese would like to keep their economy strong.
So would China. It would be a better door to the west than Hong Kong for them.
Yeah, that’s what we need in an unstable, nuclear-armed world! Pissing people off!
Sometimes you aren’t actually retarded. Well done!
That suggestion was seriously proposed for Poland in scientific circles back about 1986. The trouble is, Eurasians have been inbreeding and brainwashing totalitarianism for millennia. It’s why the Colonies revolted and seceded. LET them kill each other off and offer asylum visas to their physicists and engineers.
Or recognize them as an independent state and set up an embassy.
Most Taiwanese just want the status quo- de facto independence but not de jure.
So we’d have to officially recognize the Taiwan government as the legitimate government of all China, reclassifying the ccp as an illegitimate rebel faction.
The “one china” policy is stupid, but changing it will be complicated. I definitely do not trust our current regime to improve anything.
Oh, and following up on that first sentence I just kinda left hanging out there- most of all, a critical mass of the people of Taiwan would have to desire official separation from China, and be willing to make all the sacrifices and work that would come with it.
When China threatens Taiwan by invading its airspace, it’s not “provocative”? When a congresswoman visits Taiwan, while insisting that there is no change in the “One China” policy, it’s provoking the Chinese to attack Taiwan!
China’s economy is in terrible shape. The Chinese steal IP because the system of total submission to the state can’t produce any new ideas. It’s army is run by political officers whose rank is determined by submissiveness to the state. It’s 600 ship navy is as useless in modern warfare as a cavalry providing little but target practice for drone operators. (ours isn’t much better).
The Russians demonstrated the uselessness of an army of political officers. The Chinese make the Russians look like wild-eyed individualists.
In 1980 the Russians were 10 feet tall, by 1989 they looked like members of the Lollipop Guild. Their status hasn’t grown since then.
The reason that the Chinese don’t attack Taiwan is because they know they will end up looking stupid and impotent, just like the Russians. Their only hope is to bluff the Taiwanese into surrendering.
Maybe they can train anarcho-communists to infiltrate Taiwanese political parties and get them to Freeze and Surrender?
^This^
I was just thinking that they are doing exactly what the left has done in the US.
Infiltrate all the vital cultural, political, business and educational sectors of Taiwan over the decades and then just have them roll over at the appropriate time.
This is the most likely course.
Chinese steal because confucianist culture emphasizes and unhealthy degree of elder-worship that gets in the way of original thought and questioning of what one is being taught. Teacher is always right, student must submit. Chinese are great copiers, but not very good creators. They can’t create anything new, so they steal IP, break copyright, and back engineer whatever they can get their hands on.
With 6 IP, do they get egg roll? 😉
Someone’s been buying the Chinese crap sold on Amazon. Or, even at WalMart and Home Depot.
I well remember all the Japanese crap showing up in the 1960s and the fun we made of it. But, look how that changed after a decade or so? We started criticizing GM and Ford and Chrysler and buying ever more Toyota and Honda. For a reason.
Beware!
Their quality improved because they took the ideas of Edwards Deming seriously, while GM, Ford, etc, did not.
Yes. With import quotas agreed to, they extremely favorable gross margins and could comfortably finance the creation of Acura and Lexus.
In the meantime, Lincoln and Cadillac go onto the craper.
We have met the enemy and it us us!
You do know that Mao largely put a huge end to Confucianist thought, no?
I think you mean repackage. The sunflower God Just changed the proprieties that were observed, and keep the strong hierarchies.
Which one is Pelosi?
No comment on her having to dump Nvidia stock?
No, this trip had nothing to do with that. Nothing at all.
You mean Nivea stock? 😉
That was probably the first time a publicly-held company refused an investment. 🙂
A little OT bitching, but I am so fucking tired of these official group photos with all the ass hats wearing their pussy masks. Are they so fucking scared they can’t removed them for a 10 second photo op? Or are they so fucking righteous that they might put masks on just for the photo?
they’re mentally retarded, as is anyone wearing a mask.
Or are they so fucking righteous that they might put masks on just for the photo?
This. Several of these asshats have been caught on video over the past two years putting their face diapers on, taking the photo, and then immediately taking them off. It’s all theater.
It’s for optics only. Pelosi trying to make up for when she was caught red handed, not wearing a mask.
That’s always the come back of a pol. Excuse. Then mea culpa. Then overdo the other way. It saves admitting a wrong or apologizing.
Works like a charm!
There was always a small chance that China would shoot down her plane. Silver linings and all that.
Think about it. You’d get the pleasure of Pelosi’s death, and then World War III would seriously cramp your lifestyle.
Are you implying president-super genius would end the world because an 80 yo alcoholic got killed?
Think about who you’re talking about…..
Yes, Biden is stupid enough to blunder into WWIII without even realizing what he’s doing.
I’m hoping his handlers are smarter.
There has been no indication of that thusfar.
His handlers figure that if Biden starts a full scale nuclear exchange, they can blame it on him and run Butigieg in 2024. Absentee voting will be done with smoke signals and carrier pidgeons.
That applies to pretty much everyone in D.C.
Nah, someone like Biden is more prone to doing that than someone like Trump.
So basically this entitled, narcissistic democrat cunt might bring about Armageddon. Go team blue, right?
1952 was the opportune time to nuke that dictatorship into green Trinitite.
I would suggest about three years earlier when the Chinese communists declared their republic, at which point, the Soviets did not yet have any (practical) nuclear weapons.
Except the MIC needed them.
I’m praying for her loss.
Kennedy took very similar risks with Cuba.
The simping for Pelosi’s narcissistic vanity play I’m reading from some, here and elsewhere, is fucking pathetic.
wft with all the masks in the picture? these people are proving that they’re all morons.
No such proof was required.
Good that Pelosi is on the expendables list. But Chinese prohibitionism has been a loose cannon since 1837. A royal brat ODed and His Imperiality asked all British dope traders to leave. Instantly GB sold off U.S. bonds to finance the opium wars. Casualties from those and Taeping added up to one US population in the reconstruction era. Since then the Boxer revolt and the 1911 revolution have helped prohibitionist fanaticism into two World Wars and the current communist slave state. Prohibitionism destroys economies and cultivates a slave state EVERY time.
Can you define what you mean by “prohibitionism”?
Jesus fuck, you are goddamn retarded.
I never thought I’d see the day when I would actually root for the Chinese to just go ahead and shoot down a plane carrying a high ranking US politician, but I think I’ll make an exception in this case. The country thanks the brave pilots and others on board the aircraft for their sacrifice.
The Chinese would just be doing the jobs Americans don’t want to do.
Hey, never mind that could very well start World War III…
I thought ww3 started when Trump killed that Iranian general.
No, ww3 started when Trump moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
The hit on Suleimani was several world wars down the line…
Nah. Pelosi sucks, but she’s not committing genocide. Fuck the CCP!
Connect the dots for us. How would visiting Taiwan enrich her?
You are the most goddamn stupid motherfucker.
Geez, you are dumb.
Seriously? Isn’t it obvious on it’s face?
I’ll call a spade a spade. Good on Nancy Pelosi. She’s not shooting bullets at the PRC. She’s flying on a plane to an island. If Winnie the Pooh doesn’t like it, tough?
And one doesn’t have to like Nancy Lugosi to equally hate The Butchers of Tiananmen Square.
When she’s abroad and the ChiComs are raging against her, then she’s an American.
When she gets home she’ll be a Democrat shill again, and we can all call her names.
Geezus christ people. You’ve been complaining on end for YEARS that the US needs to stand up to China, now Pelosi is doing so and suddenly you’re all acting like massive pussies.
“Oh no! China’s so big and scary!”
Read JHR’s reply above. If China were to not to invade Taiwan, this visit will have nothing to do with it. What we do isn’t gonna play a factor on what China does to Taiwan.
What Pelosi did isn’t the solution.
China’s economy is crumbling. If they send an invasion fleet we have the best subs in existence to sink it. If that fails we blow up TSMC and no one gets chips including China.
Do you think Mike Pence (even now) would have travelled to Taiwan if President Donald Trump “discouraged” him from doing so? How about any other republican in congress?
Surely, other high profile politicians from all over the world have visited Taiwan. A European delegate visited Taiwan last year. Did China threaten to “escort” their planes with military jets?
I support Taiwanese independence. But this move is dangerous because of who’s running the American government right now. He is a half senile man who obviously has no control over his house and has rendered the nation as a paper tiger in the eyes of its enemies.
For all intents and purposes, China does NOT have a dependable ally in America. It doesn’t matter whether Biden’s professed support for the region is sincere. The nation is wrecked by inflation and gas prices, and we spent like half of our arsenal to Ukraine. We won’t be able to send Taiwan manpower, weapons, fuel, and anything else on a scale to withstand a Chinese invasion. This is a dangerous time to be poking BOTH the Chinese and Russian bear.
And what do they have to fear from the current admin? Nothing. Biden can’t walk somewhere coherently for 5 minutes and 70% of the country wishes him gone. They’ll trash the nation and bully its politicians to their heart’s content. But the left in this country will vote for 4 more years of misery to preserve their sacred right of abortion and pronouns. China knows half the country will betray it for their identity causes.
edit – Taiwan does NOT have a dependable ally in America
“man who obviously has no control over his house”
You really don’t understand balance of powers, do you?
You seem to have taken the term “control over the house” literally.
Checks and balances can’t do anything about democrat leadership ignoring the president’s wishes.
And, if she were Republican?
“He is a half senile man…”
Yeah, and the other half ain’t very bright either.
U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi left Malaysia on Tuesday and was expected to visit Taiwan, escalating tensions with Beijing, which claims the self-ruled island as its own territory.
The plane carrying Pelosi and her delegation left from a Malaysian air force base, with local media in Taiwan reporting that she would arrive there on Tuesday night. The United Daily News, Liberty Times and China Times — Taiwan’s three largest national newspapers — cited unidentified sources as saying she would spend the night in Taiwan.
https://worldabcnews.com/nancy-pelosis-expected-visit-to-taiwan-latest-flashpoint-in-u-s-china-tensions/
When has Pelosi ever cared about anyone but herself and her drunken husband? Nothing new here.
Half this forum are self admitted, drunken slobs, so what difference does this make?
Biden allows Chinese agression,Compromised joe biden and family are allowing China to take over our Country, you can’t open any business in China without them being 50% partners, why not the same for US policy? They steal our technology, bribe our politicians, and fxxx over our trade policies, they want to control the panama canal, the bidens are endorsing all their communist aggression,need anybody ask why?
Nothing accomplished for the nation, it successfully distracted from her husband and the legal system being manipulated to protect him. The change of judges is rigging the system.
The author’s opinion that Pelosi’s visit is “bad for everyone else” is not shared by Mike Mullen, the Joint Chief of Staff for Bush, who was just in Taiwan himself along with a bipartisan group of senators in March. Where was Bonnie’s whining about them going? Should we appease China some more? Worked well for Putin. Oh wait.
I wonder what the editors of reason will say when China invades Taiwan thus controlling 90% of the world’s semiconductors. Why are we doing business with this government. The reasoning in the Nixon administration was as they develop they will become like us. That clearly hasn’t happened. Considering how the West has treated them in the last century I think their looking for revenge. Why aren’t we discussing why we let it get to this point in the first place ?
This is a very rare occasion when Nancy and I actually agree on something.
The Chinese reaction to Nancy’s relatively benign trip should remind us that the Chinese Government is not our friend.
The globalists are feverishly clutching their pearls.
Why? I’m trying to imagine the worst overreaction if Pelosi had been killed, and generally it’s a bunch main stream news going into a swivet About the doomsday clock, like always. A bunch of neocons & Democrats saber rattling and demanding reparations from China (as they try to skim off the top, or at least get some bang Fang), as well as probably A bunch of US bureaucrats illegally nationalizing a few Chinese owned American businesses (like what we did to Russia). And everybody looks rather bad till somebody invents some other problem to wag the dog.
Riddle me this Batman, who was the last country to actually have their military fight with China’s military. Who was the last country to actually invade or be invaded by China.
For all you boys and girls who cut class and were smoking pot instead of keeping up with current events, or even history going back to the 60s the correct answer is India. While India got their butts kicked in 62 they have definitely improved and are predicted to pass China in population sometime soon so they can match the Asian human meat shields Western countries are suppose to fear.
While there is discussion about what the US would or could do if China invaded Tiawan there is not any question India would make it a two front war and fuck China in the ass with no lube.
Ragebot – That, right there, that’s interesting, practical, relevant. Keep doing that.
Also, Sadly it was my communist leaning history/social studies teachers that were not interested in history.
Outside of some Random “teaching” thay Focused on things like the Aswan High Dam , Selma, American slavery, – and for some reason about preindustrial Eskimos (I suspect they used the free time given by repeatedly showing us “Nanook of the North” to go and smoke some pot),
I mean I believe they briefly went over other things – for example the The American revolution, Columbus, and Boston tea party, but “Schoolhouse rock” did it better, and more in depth – my teachers have little to do with my education of History, geography and sociology.
I believe with an “ahead of its time”, progressive education like mine,I could’ve easily turned out like Mike Larson or sarcastimic (Not jeff, im not a pedophile) had I’ve been slightly less curious.
Your Chinese check is in the mail. Dr. Fu Manchu (aka the Chinese George Soros) is pleased with his minion.