How the Controversy Around When Harry Became Sally Boosted Its Popularity
Amazon's decision to stop selling the book shows the pressure platforms are under to reject speech that doesn't conform to progressive orthodoxy.

I was worried I wouldn't be able to stomach When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment, Ryan T. Anderson's 2018 book on gender identity in modern America. Anderson is a Catholic pundit who made a name for himself opposing same-sex marriage at a time when even many of his conservative peers had let that one go. Yet, while there's plenty in the book for socially liberal folks (myself included) to disagree with, it isn't brimming with blatant bigotry. One might argue that he has selectively wielded data and anecdotes, and one might disagree with the conclusions he draws—chief among them that helping people with gender dysphoria accept their birth sex may be a more effective and humane course of action than hormone treatments and surgeries. But this isn't a wildly hateful or inflammatory book.
That's what makes Amazon's 2021 decision to stop selling When Harry Became Sally so strange. The megaplatform is home to all sorts of socially conservative books, including Anderson's previous publications on marriage. It carries works from radical feminists, whose takes on transgender issues often mirror those of conservatives. It carries a Matt Walsh book calling trans ideology "collective insanity." It sells Michelle Malkin's defense of internment camps.
What made Amazon single out When Harry Became Sally? The company's vice president of public policy explained that they "have chosen not to sell books that frame LGBTQ+ identity as a mental illness." And yet, gender dysphoria is still included in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders—available on Amazon.
This isn't the sort of censorship we typically lament when it comes to book bans. As a private company, Amazon can sell or not sell any titles it chooses. When Harry Became Sally can still be found in myriad places—I picked up a copy through Barnes & Noble—and perhaps Anderson is getting the last laugh: The controversy has brought ample attention to his product, and his publisher can (and does) market it as "the book Amazon doesn't want you to read."
But Amazon's decision reflects a way of thinking about intellectual pluralism on digital platforms, which are under pressure to reject speech that doesn't conform to certain progressive orthodoxies. And tech platforms, along with book publishers and distributors, seem increasingly apt to give in to these campaigns. In Anderson's case, Amazon's decision seems motivated more by high-profile ire at When Harry Became Sally than by anything uniquely offensive within it.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "When Harry Became Sally."
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"The megaplatform is home to all sorts of socially conservative books, including Anderson's previous publications on marriage."
Presumably because they don't think there's much risk of SSM being abolished. Such opposition is harmless, like monarchism.
Whereas obviously there's still a risk that the righties and the feminists may join together with pissed-off parents to oppose the Stan/Loretta stuff.
don't think there's much risk of SSM being abolished
perhaps they should think again. There's a backlash coming. The Pendulum is at the top of its arc. It's a long way to the other side.
Except on the issue of same sex marriage, there is a strong Conservative push for keeping it. "They aren't harming anyone. It's none of the government's business".
Additionally, the church has lost almost all of its sway in the conservative movement, and even many churches have switched sides on this issue.
There's very little opposition. Not nonexistent like the fearmongering about the Loving decision, but very little and unpowered.
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Except on the issue of same sex marriage, there is a strong Conservative push for keeping it. "They aren't harming anyone. It's none of the government's business".
Thomas wants to revisit Obergefell
Ted Cruz just this weekend stated he wants SCOTUS to repeal Obergefell
I 100% believe that two (or more) consenting adults should be able to enter into a marriage contract, but Obergefell was a shit decision, just like Roe.
But nobody was interested in arguing those cases on good constitutional grounds.
^Bingo
And, given Thomas and SCOTUS's recent spate I have renewed confidence that it will be more rightly decided the next time around. Even if that includes something more along the lines of unlimited civil unions or the abolishing of federal involvement in marriage. Not that I think either one will happen but that I think a better solution than the one we've got exists in between.
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Jeffy doesn’t care about the constitution. He just wants progs to have their way. Which includes Obergefell.
The best decision would be one where it is decided that government has no role in regulating marriage.
Obergefell was a bad decision. Marriage, like abortion, is a matter for states and legislatures, if it is a matter for the state at all.
And Obergafell held that it wasn't a matter for the States. And the original U.S. Constitution's "good faith and credit" clause has it that if one State recognizes a marriage, all States have to as well. Problem solved.
So if Utah or Nevada recognizes my marriages Illinois will too? Great! Now the question becomes "How do we file jointly?"
It should, but the little matter of outlawing consenting adult Polygamy would need to be repealed to make the clause fully Libertaian.
That’s the part no one wanted to argue. Because then New York would have to recognize some Texans CCW and Louisiana would have to recognize some Oklamhomans marijuana license.
We should extend that protection of "good faith and credit" to gun ownership.
As Gary Cooper would say: "Yeeee-ep!"
Conservative Christian Right-Winger Rod Dreher's response to Obergefell was basically for Christians to go into Hobbit holes (in his book The Benedict Option.)
If it kept the Religious Right out of everyone else's hair, I'd have no problem with that, but of course it never works that way. This is where they re-group for battle, as well as say: "Lock me in the closet! Stop me before I Gay-Marry!")
"...and even many churches have switched sides on this issue."
The parking lots of those churches are rather empty on Sunday mornings these days.
They didn't think there was much chance of Roe v. Wade being abolished, so they had to push to overturn the Mississippi abortion law. How did that turn out?
"the righties and the feminists"
And Gay men, and Hispanics, and Muslims.
What's left? College professors in Birkenstocks and people with blue hair?
Something about shrinking the size of a political movement until it's small enough to drown in a bathtub?
This isn't the sort of censorship we typically lament when it comes to book bans.
Because mostly this publication conflates "Challenged" books that have received some parental complaints with books actually removed from the schools, and even calls books banned that were replaced in the curriculum with another text while the book is still available in the school library.
It's really disappointing how completely Reason has joined the progressive herd on LGBT. The just swallow whatever nonsense the Rainbow Army comes up with and spout it as fact, without even a hint of skepticism or analysis.
I honestly can't tell if they believe this shit, or they're just complete fucking cowards with no principles.
"or they're just complete fucking cowards with no principles."
I think its that. They dont want to get the "alt right!" label that would absolutely 100% get thrown at them if they stuck to actual principles involving liberty and libertarianism.
They want to be able to cos-play as a sometimes contrarian liberal who gets to stay in the good graces of the elite, still gets invited to parties, etc. The second they stick to actual principles and call some of the insanity out, they will be called alt right bigots, as is standard if you disagree with pride orthodoxy
Yeah, they're like the kids who label themselves as "bisexual" so they can be trendy and cool, yet don't actually have same-sex relationships. They're liberals, but calling themselves "libertarian" makes them edgy and cool.
OR, they are fully aware of how powerful the progressives are in the media, and they don't want the ensuing pile-on and cancelation that comes from getting the alt-right label slapped on them. IMO, that's worse, because they're self-censoring in order to stay "safe" and keep their jobs.
If that's the case, it only proves what they've been so strenuously denying: the progressives don't actually need to engage in overt censorship. They're bullies and cause people to censor themselves, which is the worst kind of censorship.
To give the Reason staff any consideration, perhaps they are also truly liberty-confused, or even socialism-curious.
What's the slogan for the Socialism-Curious?
"Once you go Black-Block, you never go Back-Block?".
Or: "How do you know you don't like it...if it's never really been tried at all?" 😉
What is the libertarian argument in favor of the state banning gender reassignment surgery? Hmm?
I don’t know Jeffy. What is the libertarian argument for you advocating for teachers grooming five year olds? Hmm?
What is the libertarian argument in favor of the state banning gender reassignment surgery? Hmm?
There isn't one.
Which is why libertarians tend to support sex change surgery for consenting adults
But not for kids.
Kids can't consent.
And parents can't consent to this type of sexual decision for them any more than they can choose to whore them out.
They CAN consent to sexual affirmation surgery--- the surgery undertaken to rectify the effects of being intersex with non-conforming genitalia.
But they CAN'T consent to procedures that would sterilize or destroy functioning organs unless acting otherwise would directly cause death.
If someone butchered my kid like that I would hunt them down and do the same thing to them.
If someone butchered my kid like that
Well, yes.
This is why we're talking about fixing an actual, physical problem that occurs when someone is born with ambiguous genitalia.
And not cosmetic elective surgery on children to address a possible psychological issue.
This is where Jeff argues that adults choosing this surgery for their kids is akin to piercing their ears or getting a tattoo.
Well said.
I have to agree. Compare this to the vitriol about Maus.
Maus was changed out in the 8th grade curriculum for another book. It was still available in the library and could be brought in and was available wherever books were sold. However, there were countless articles about the travesty of censorship.
On the other hand, this book was actually removed from store shelves based on political pressure. The fact that it was not completely unavailable to purchase was simply a failure on the part of the activists.
Mob censorship is still censorship.
Exactly what I was thinking about. One school board in a small town in Tennessee took Maus out of the curriculum in favor of another book and left it in their school library. And yes, it was a bunch of social conservatives hemming about moralistic naughty words. But it affected a couple hundred 8th graders.
It's funny the scale. Maus gets replaced in the curriculum of one middle school, and gets a big sales bump. This book gets banned from the second biggest company in the nation and gets...what, a moderate bump? I haven't seen any real numbers on it, and this story is a year old and has barely been covered.
I've never heard of it
There was also the weirdness of using a graphic novel of a fictionalized biography as the primary textbook for a history section on the Holocaust. However good a graphic novel it is, it is rather light fare for learning history. Not to mention when Maus originally came out, it was controversial in the Jewish community for the format trivializing the Holocaust.
Well it wasn't the history section, people misunderstand this. It's coordination between departments. The idea is that they get a history of World War II and the Holocaust in their history class, while their literature class finds a suitable literary work dealing with the same subject matter.
I don't know how Maus works as a tool for the subject matter, regardless. When I was in 12th grade I was assigned Night by Elie Wiesel, and that book kicked the crap out of me. It hit home the Holocaust for me in a way I'd never experienced before. I think the book we read immediately following that was Farewell to Manzanar, memoirs of a Japanese internment camp, which was the wrong book to follow-up with because the horrors of Japanese internment were so tame in comparison.
I had the same reaction when I read Night. Maus was good, but I think the metaphor got in the way a lot. Night is the classic text for a reason.
And I disagree. Reading the books together isn't bad. We did some bad things in the war, and the interment camps were the worst. However, we do need to keep perspective on what was happening. The holocaust is so bad that it kind of breaks the scale, and people tend to minimize it for effect, saying "this person is as bad as the Nazis" or even worse. However, even dictators with genuinely worse body counts were not as bad, as systemic, and as deliberate as the final solution. Stalin killed people because they opposed him or stood in his way. Hitler killed people just because they were there.
I found this line particularly dishonest. She's all, "what, my allies that routinely riot, commit arson, assault and attempt murder are actually capable of pressuring for book bans?"
Yeah, but the riots, arson, assault, and attempted murder were not aimed at any of her pet causes.
Just call a spade a spade and don't hide behind euphemisms.
If a person wants to limit the reach of a particular piece of literature from certain potential readers, without their consent, that action may fairly be called censorship. It doesn't matter if it is government or private censorship, it doesn't matter if the domain of the censorship is limited or broad. Problem is, the censors don't want to be called censors because it makes them look like assholes.
Not assigning a book in class isn’t censorship. Removing it from the library is censorship.
It’s a pretty easy distinction.
Wrong. Public libraries (including school libraries) remove books (or decide not to buy them) continuously based on perceived value of the literature in question. Public criticism of the purchase of some books is perfectly legitimate, as is a response to recognize the criticism and act accordingly.
It is only censorship when the sale or distribution of a publication is prohibited. (BTW, that means Amazon did not censor - they made a bad marketing decision).
"It doesn't matter if it is government or private censorship, it doesn't matter if the domain of the censorship is limited or broad. "
Choosing a curriculum for kids is not the same as censorship. If it were, then anything is censorship. The decision not to teach Intelligent Design is censorship. The decision to not teach pole dancing while topless is censorship.
The problem is that Private Companies have increasingly become more of a Private-State Enterprise. These Private-State Enterprises are pushing the Official Narrative of the state.
As a result the Private-State Enterprise is no longer a private player that has the freedoms of a private entity. Instead the Private-State Enterprise is now part of the state and should not be afforded the freedoms of a private entity and instead be constrained as a state actor.
The state derives its power by a grant given to it by the people. The people can remove this grant of power at anytime although preferably through peaceful means. The turn to Private-State Enterprises harkens back to WWII and Axis powers economics.
It is not acceptable to have any Private-State Enterprises. Rather limited government with a vastly smaller federal government, smaller state governments and less oppressive local governments. The government should not be involved in the economy, picking winners and losers. Government can be involved in adjudicating contractual disputes, but not much more.
"The turn to Private-State Enterprises harkens back to WWII and Axis powers economics. "
No, it's always been the case, hasn't it? The current secretary of state has all sorts of ties to private enterprise, mostly military suppliers. Under Trump, the secretary of state was the CEO of Exxon.
" Rather limited government with a vastly smaller federal government, smaller state governments and less oppressive local governments. "
Not gonna happen as long as there are massive private entities who ultimately run the show.
Not gonna happen as long as there is a 16th amendment.
...it isn't brimming with blatant bigotry.
Oh my.
Not "blatant" bigotry.
Mostly peaceful bigotry?
No WIDESPREAD bigotry.
Reddit bans the word "groomer."
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/07/15/groomer-reddit-lgbtq-ban/
The story claims that the word "groomer" is an anti-LGBT slur that "conflates LGBTQ+ identities with paedophilia," which is yet another dishonest framing. "Groomer" refers to certain LGBT people who are engaged in a specific set of behaviors, not LGTB people in general, and yet they dishonestly claim that it's being applied to ALL LGBT people.
So, again, a small subset of a larger group has bullied another platform into accepting their definition of terms- which is a lie- and bullied them into banning certain speech. It also bans calling transgenderism and gender dysphoria a mental illness (even though it's in the DSM as a mental illness) and "citing transgender suicide rates in a hateful way." What makes it hateful is, of course, undefined.
Makes me wonder what's going to happen to all those subreddits for detransition stories, or subreddits for parents of kids who have been groomed.
Good job, Reason, on giving in to this bullshit and feeding this beast. Every time you morons spout the party line on this without any skepticism or analysis, you empower them further to shut down legitimate inquiry and discussion on real issues. Way to go, you fucking cowards.
The motivation behind the ban seems to be that it is rude to say that there are any pedophiles in the alphabet communities rather than there are no pedophiles in those communities. Which is indicative of a cover-up.
There is also a certain species of low social skills conservative who have discovered That other los social skills conservatives think they’re really clever if they say “groomer” a lot.
A ban is excessive and censorious, but I will say that trend has made reading Instapundit quite irritating the last couple of months.
Like how "_phobic" is for low intelligence progressives?
now THAT is a good rejoinder
kind of wish heedless would respond
What I say below applies to all Progressive "Antis-" and -Phobias" too. Evidence or GTFO.
If I were the Reddit head, I'd say give court records of convictions before a Judge and Jury or GTFO.
Team Red: I'm going to start redefining the word "groomer" to mean not its traditional meaning of preparing kids for sexual activity, but "anyone who teaches kids about any topic that is related to sexual identity at all that I don't like"
Also Team Red: "I'm upset that those censorious assholes are banning the use of the word 'groomer'! Are they pro-pedophile now? Huh?"
Which is the early stages of grooming Jeffy. I know how you want to twist it around so it’s otherwise. But it’s not.
Team Blue: "Hey, the Right cannot manipulate the definition of words to use as a political weapon.
That is our schtick!"
Nobody is refining the word "groomer" except lying pedophiles like you.
Hey guys, we should totally ban the use of "Dog Whistle" for when we accuse Republicans of using covert messages to signal racists.
Alternatively, as you can see on this site, Grooming is a TOOL used for abuse.
https://www.rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs
Grooming is the act of preparing an individual, community and guardians for some form of abuse. It is a set of procedures- just as a dog whistle is a tool.
And what these people are doing in school is absolutely grooming, even if it isn't "Sexual grooming". *shrug*
If I can't hear it with an ultrasonic detector used to test pest repellers or pipe leaks, it's not a "Dog Whistle." Proof or GTFO.
"Makes me wonder what's going to happen to all those subreddits for detransition stories, or subreddits for parents of kids who have been groomed. "
Are there not platforms on the internet where such parents can find a welcome home? If reddit is for cowards, groomers, pedophiles and perverts, parents might consider another venue with values in tune with their values.
So, build your own social media platform?
That's what Trump and Zuckerberg did. You have a better idea?
"Groomer" refers to certain LGBT people who are engaged in a specific set of behaviors
No it doesn't, even you are falling for the lie.
The word 'groomer' has no necessary connection to LGBTQ at all. It is about preparing children for sexual activity and sexual intercourse, whether they are gay or straight. That you think 'groomer' refers specifically to LGBTQ people is telling.
And do not even pretend that the word 'groomer' is being redefined dishonestly by Team Red to mean much more than preparing kids for sexual activity. They want to use it as an all-purpose slur against those teaching acceptance of LGBTQ identity, even if the instruction has nothing at all to do about explicit sexual intercourse or sexual activity.
Okay, groomer
Oh Jeffy, so eager to groom. So reluctant to admit it.
Notice he's narrowing the definition of grooming to sexual activity and sexual intercourse, so that as long as these teachers aren't fucking students, it's not grooming.
He ignores that cults use grooming tactics too.
He is correct however that there are many heterosexual groomers.
I don’t think anybody denies this though.
Quite the opposite. The "Don't say gay" bill and others are rather-specifically orientation agnostic because they want to prevent heterosexual and homosexual grooming equally. They understand the meaning of the term 'statutory' in statutory rape to mean mens rea, age, gender, orientation, etc., etc. don't matter.
Teachers don’t need to be talking to little kids about sex, period.
Your urge to preserve the innocence of children is understandable. But to deliberately keep them ignorant is to play right into the hands of groomers, perverts, bisexuals, transsexuals, pedophiles, progressives, democrats, communists, Mexicans, etc.
Getting rid of democrats solves for most of that.
Of course there are. Most groomers are heterosexual because most people are heterosexual.
pinknews.co.uk: "Reddit bans use of the term 'groomer'."
chemjeff: "Why are conservatives discriminating against homosexuals?"
Jeffy does love to twist things around. He’s such a disingenuous cunt.
The word 'groomer' is being twisted by the left to try to make using it a homophobic slur.
They need this in light of the the fact that so many educators who post video in which they wax rhapsodic about their need to discuss their genital adventures with pre-K students have an unfortunate tendency to self identify as part of the LGBTQIA+ community.
The right is using the term 'groomer' to mean people who try to entice others into illicit activity--children being just one group that these groomers go after. But that gender studies teacher trying to convince xir students to fight the patriarchy with direct action is no less a 'groomer'.
It’s important to the left to access the 5-8 age group because they haven’t had the neurological development yet to properly grasp the concepts involved. Kids under nine really haven’t developed a grasp of intangible concepts yet. So they’re easy to manipulate. Which benefits democrat groomers.
Technically, isn't it the LG community claiming that groomers are REALLY part of their group?
“Groomer” refers to any adult preparing for sexual exploitation of children. Most groomers, like most pedophiles, are heterosexual.
Most groomers, like most pedophiles, are heterosexual.
Facts not in evidence. I certainly agree that probability-wise it's highly likely, however, in the context of a society that would label a male groomer as an unequivocal rapist and celebrate a woman taking the exact same action as a good rape. I can see how the numbers could get murkey.
Agreed that heterosexuals on reddit deserve to be called out for grooming children equally to homosexual groomers. Pink News seems to think the opposite as Mickey Rat points out, "We shouldn't talk about grooming because some of them might be LGBTQ." That's a no-shit cover up that serves both heterosexual *and* homosexual groomers equally... unless it doesn't.
"And yet, gender dysphoria is still included in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders—available on Amazon."
That will change. The "science" of psychiatry will morph to gender dysphoria being a normal presentation when mental gender differs from biological sex characteristics.
Then, *poof*, transgenderism won't be a mental disorder. It will be "normal." And you will be a scientifically-proven bigot if you disagree with the new "science."
Quotes intentional.
The problem is if it is not a medical condition, then the lucrative surgeries and hormone treatments may not be subsidized for the medical profession.
You say that like only rich white women being able to cosmetically alter their children will be a problem.
Dude, why even "science" if it can't promote the desired narratives?
Wikipedia defines 'mental disorder' as follows:
"A mental disorder, also called a mental illness or psychiatric disorder, is a behavioral or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment of personal functioning."
If society changes so that transgenderism is no longer fraught with the distress and loss of functionality it once had, then it follows that psychiatry should accept these changes and reflect them in its definitions and practices.
"And you will be a scientifically-proven bigot if you disagree with the new "science."
I wouldn't worry about that. We don't call people who believe in a flat earth or phrenology 'bigots.' When they're not mocked, they tend to be ignored.
Except the distress will still be there, because the distress is caused by their body not fitting a mental image. Without severe medical intervention their body will never fit that mental image. Societies beliefs and how they treat the individual won't magical trendier their bodies without medical intervention.
"Without severe medical intervention their body will never fit that mental image. "
Who knows? Perhaps drugs will be developed that will smooth over the discrepancy. And social norms are changing all the time, like it of not. At one time, not too long ago, the idea of consulting a mental health specialist was highly stigmatized.
There will still always be the fundamental discrepancy that trans people are still genetically and biologically the sex that they are. You want to say gender is socially constructed, fine. But sex is not. Even with complete social acceptance, being transgender is still fundamentally a problem. It's ridiculous to keep tacking it onto "LGB".
And to be clear, I don't mean "problem" in a moral or social sense, but a personal mental health problem.
"There will still always be the fundamental discrepancy that trans people are still genetically and biologically the sex that they are. "
I don't think I disagree. The question though, is how much this discrepancy matter as society norms change. Will this discrepancy be important and weighty enough to cause the suffering and disfunction that constitute mental illness?
" Even with complete social acceptance, being transgender is still fundamentally a problem. "
How big a problem is and attitudes with how we deal with it is the question. There's an interesting scene in 'The Big Sleep,' the Humphrey Bogart movie from the middle of the last century. A woman character suffers from poor eyesight and has to wear glasses. Only at that time, wearing glasses undermined a woman's attractiveness. "Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses" was the wisdom of the day. Poor eyesight is still fundamentally a problem to this day, but the way we deal with it, corrective lenses, in this case, has become increasingly socially accepted.
Social norms?
Are you kidding?
The issue is an internal one for people with dysphoria or dysmorphia.
And while some cases can be resolved by surgery due to the nature of the underlying issue, in the vast majority of cases the person goes through the surgeries and the hormones only to discover that none of the cosmetic work has altered who they are in their heads.
"in the vast majority of cases the person goes through the surgeries and the hormones only to discover that none of the cosmetic work has altered who they are in their heads."
Some of them have altered who they are in their heads. You imply as much. That's the reason why It is and will remain an attractive option for people with this condition.
Some of them have altered who they are in their heads.
That's not what I said. I said this--
"And while some cases can be resolved by surgery due to the nature of the underlying issue,"
That is not at all the same as suggesting that people alter who they are in their heads through surgery.
The people who are most successful with assignment surgery are intersex people and people for whom the dysphoria/dysmorphia is at least partially a paraphilia.
For others it is, almost literally, a 50/50 shot.
"For others it is, almost literally, a 50/50 shot."
There are lots of people suffering from lots of conditions who opt for surgery with less chance of success than 50/50. I repeat, as long as surgery offers some chance to do what the patients wants it to, it is and will remain an attractive option, regardless of how you feel about it.
Like everything else, psychology is just another political weapon for you democrats. Another thing to be weaponized against free Americans.
What have you got against political weapons? Aren't they covered under the 2nd amendment?
Nothing. And now they’ll be used against democrats.
Doesn't that make you feel good? Why all the whinging? About trannies of all things!
Exactly. And you get to use the bathroom and locker room that corresponds to your sex. I don't give a rat 's ass about your gender, and neither should the law.
" And you get to use the bathroom and locker room that corresponds to your sex."
In my place of business there is only one bathroom and people of all sexes and genders use it without a peep of complaint. That's because there is no choice, I hear you say. At home though, there are two bathrooms and we could conceivably segregate them by sex, gender, or any other criteria you think is important. But we don't and the notion has never occurred to us. Your concern seems either frivolous or deeply rooted in personal insecurities. Or maybe you are just parroting what the talking heads on TV.
Yeah, my office was like that too. But those bathrooms were individual use, a sim guessing they are for you. Which is very different than a communal bathroom being shared by multiple individuals at the same time.
Communal bathrooms have a social dimension. Maybe that's why the segregation. If the issue was only privacy while shitting and pissing, then arrangements could be made to accommodate individuals of both sexes simultaneously.
Or tranny’s could just use the bathroom they’re supposed to. Instead of expecting The whole fucking world to accommodate their delusion.
"Who knows?"
Rational folks.
"Perhaps drugs will be developed that will smooth over the discrepancy. And social norms are changing all the time, like it of not. At one time, not too long ago, the idea of consulting a mental health specialist was highly stigmatized."
Tranny "allies" will "Dead name" tranny family members the moment they annoy them.
Literally NOBODY takes them seriously.
"Rational folks."
The world is full of rational folks making irrational choices all the time.
"Tranny "allies" will "Dead name" tranny family members the moment they annoy them."
I don't know what this means but it sounds bad.
Mtrueman is one of the new AI bots/trolls that are supposed to come across as reasonable and non-confrontational, and are always full of “facts” cut and pasted from the internet. They are incredibly annoying.
My apologies if I come across as reasonable and non-confrontational. I mean to be incredibly annoying.
It’s a lot easier to change the mental image than change the body.
We do it every time we consume alcohol. Of course the precise difference between the body and our mental images is not clear nor well understood. Who knows how future developments in science or societal attitudes will have on the issue of gender and transgenderism. One thing we can be certain of is that they both will change over time.
What a nonsensical response. The fact is that you leftists are abusing tranny’s everyday by treating their condition like it is physically legitimate as opposed to a mental disorder, which is what it really is.
All so you can push more cultural Marxism.
"physically legitimate as opposed to a mental disorder, which is what it really is."
Maybe you are right. I have no way of knowing. I've never met a tranny or studied medicine or psychology. Is there such a thing as a mentally legitimate disorder or are only certain physical disorders legitimate?
There is no biological science that backs up transsexualism. It’s a delusion.
So what? It's a delusion that can be dispelled by surgery and drug treatments.
If society changes so that transgenderism is no longer fraught with the distress and loss of functionality...
then it follows that we will have become not-americans celebrating and embracing cultures proven to produce low results and on their way back to the Dark Ages
There are worse things that could happen.
"If society changes so that transgenderism is no longer fraught with the distress and loss of functionality it once had,"
Societal changes don't make a difference. Trans people will always have gender dysphoria because they cannot be changed from the sex they are to the sex they want to be, even with drastic surgical interventions.
The distress today is because we tell them they can, in fact, change from what they are to what they want to be, but it's always incomplete and will never produce the results they think they're going to get, because it's now hate speech to say anything else.
Agreeing with a man that he's now a woman, just because he thinks he is, is just mental gymnastics. Other mental gymnastics:
Why, what fine raiments the King has on today!
That shovel you found in the shed and MOMA hung from the ceiling by a wire, is such fine art! Because it's about the IDEA, you know.
I can do certain mental gymnastics, but it's authoritarian bullshit to make me do it when I don't want to.
"That shovel you found in the shed and MOMA hung from the ceiling by a wire, is such fine art! Because it's about the IDEA, you know."
Fine art:
1 Art produced or intended primarily for beauty rather than utility.
2 Any of the art forms, such as sculpture, painting, or music, used to create such art.
3 Something requiring highly developed techniques and skills.
No, that hanging shovel is not 'fine art,' it's conceptual art. I like the idea of conceptual art. To own a piece of fine art, you have to buy it. To own a piece of conceptual art, you only have to think it.
To be a fine man, you have to be born with a penis and balls. To be a conceptual man, you only have to think it.
I can see why you take the positions you take.
There's a line the movie 'My Left Foot' about all artists having to struggle against the limitations of their media. Pushing against these limitations is what makes an artist great. Accepting them is the hallmark of mediocrity.
I don't think you understand what 'limitations of their media' means.
It is not about social mores.
It is about the fact that paint can only say so much. That the clay can only hold such shapes. or, as with 'My Left Foot', that the instrument can only make certain sounds.
And you push that to it's utmost. To wring as much out of it as you can.
Until you have spent days, weeks even, trying to get the effect in your head out into the world with the media you choose you simply can't understand.
"It is not about social mores."
I think it is. In this case, the media is the body and how it's modified through piercings, tattooing, drugs and surgery. It's not a traditional art like music or painting and so conservatives tend to dismiss it. Practitioners are depicted as mentally ill, or attention seeking, or worse as we can see here in the comments. But I think sex changes are only the beginning and the future will see other equally controversial interventions on the bodies we were born with. Imagine the uproar if people could visit the doctor and have a race change. That white man marrying your daughter could have been born a black man, and is not a legitimate white man at all but an imposter seeking to appropriate white privileges which he's not entitled to. Social mores are going to have a field day.
This is all a step in getting people used to transhumanism, an almost gnostic rejection of the natural body in favor of centrally planned modification/design.
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1495823216497016832?t=QuwC4YgCf0cj-CF-mA2a0w&s=19
Creative class Übermensch through transhumanism.
[Link, thread]
"This is all a step in getting people used to transhumanism, an almost gnostic rejection of the natural body"
Medicine has always been about using technology to change the body and alter it to fit the desires of the patient and/or society. It's not new. And it's not necessarily something restricted to the powerful elite. Body modifications like piercing and tattooing are phenomena that seem to come from the lower classes and marginalized.
That’s nonsense. Medicine has been about curing disease and restoring normal function.
Most medical practitioners refuse to enhance or change bodily functions without an illness.
" Medicine has been about curing disease and restoring normal function. "
The original doctors were barbers. People who specialize in tailoring the body (specifically the hair and beard) to fit an ideal or aspiration of the customer.
"Most medical practitioners refuse to enhance or change bodily functions without an illness."
Have you tried paying them? That usually works for me.
"Trans people will always have gender dysphoria because they cannot be changed from the sex they are to the sex they want to be,"
I'm not disputing that. The issue is whether it will always cause the distress and loss of functionality that it does today.
"The distress today is because we tell them they can..."
You don't appear to have thought this through. The distress from gender dysphoria doesn't come from telling sufferers that sex change surgeries are an option. In one sentence you say that societal changes don't make a difference. Then you say that recent prohibitions to voicing opposition to surgical interventions is causing the distress. As I say, you seem confused and don't appear to have thought this through.
Your assumption that societal changes can make a difference assumes that the distress is caused primarily from external inconsistencies rather than internal ones. It also easily leads to a conclusion that to helping gender dysphoria requires forcing society to change, hence the totalitarian attitudes of the trans political movement.
" the distress is caused primarily from external inconsistencies rather than internal ones."
I don't think it's easy or even possible to tease out the differences between the two.
he issue is whether it will always cause the distress and loss of functionality that it does today.
What is this supposed 'distress and loss of functionality' exactly?
If anything these trans people are celebrated and treated like sacred cows.
and for what essentially boils down to being a cross-dresser
this is why so many young teens are now claiming to be part of this group. It confers social BENEFITS rather than drawbacks.
In that case, it seems entirely rational. I'd be more concerned if many young teens were joining groups that led to them suffering drawbacks and stigmatization.
They're not actually suffering gender dysphoria you know. They are trying to get cool points.
It's not my business why people suffer or pretend to suffer from it. Teens go to great lengths to get cool points. Nothing new here.
"If anything these trans people are celebrated and treated like sacred cows."
Not until recently. This is an example of the societal changes we've been talking about. Back in the early 70's when Pat Buchanan was speech writer and advisor to Nixon, he wrote of an unruly Republican politician, 'he was the Christine Jorgensen of the republican party.' Nixon and his aids got a chuckle from the characterization, but never used the line as it was thought to be too inflammatory to be spoken in public. Spiro Agnew used it instead.
I looked for a relationship between Christine Jorgensen and Jo Jorgensen but alas the internets couldn't come up with anything.
but we're talking about today, not the past.
cross-dressers have never had it better in the USA (I'm not talking about Iran, Africa and basically anywhere that isn't the west)
"cross-dressers have never had it better in the USA"
You want them to have it worse? Is that what you are trying to say?
I don't think you quite understand how sex change surgery was seen in the 70s.
It was a surgical wonder. Something amazing that man could now do.
It was seen as a leap towards the future.
It wasn't until the advent of the transtrender and the accompanying activists who think we should get rid og all gendered language, banish the term pregnant woman and redefine all human sexuality along the lines of extreme sexual minorities that it really became an issue.
"It wasn't until the advent of the transtrender and the accompanying activists who think we should get rid og all gendered language, banish the term pregnant woman and redefine all human sexuality along the lines of extreme sexual minorities that it really became an issue."
None of this is anything I feel the urge to get worked up about. In this ever changing world in which we live in I'm a live and let live kind of guy.
I personally do not give two shits if a moron maims himself. I do mind if a child does it.
In some countries male and female circumcision is routinely performed on infants without their consent. But that's OK because culture, right?
In some countries male and female circumcision is routinely performed on infants without their consent. But that's OK because culture, right?
No. It's not okay. Fuck your culture.
My culture stresses informed consent. It's a good thing.
At this point there are many places a trans person can live and be where they are not only tolerated and accepted, but positively celebrated. Even in those situations, the problems don't go away as far as I can see. At least not for those who have genuine gender dysphoria and aren't just seeking attention with the latest cool thing.
"Even in those situations, the problems don't go away as far as I can see."
They don't call it DYSphoria for nothing.
"it isn't brimming with blatant bigotry"
Why is this surprising or even worth commenting on? That describes the vast majority of opposition to any of these progressive social movements.
also even if it was full of perceived bigotry...
so what.
Even if it was full of actual bigotry... so what. I have trouble believing that, in all of Amazon, there isn't one book specifically calling for the death of an actual person by name, let alone a specific group of people by race, creed, gender, nationality, or orientation.
They seem to have Thomas Dixon's *The Klansman,* not *that's* some real hate speech.
it isn't brimming with blatant bigotry
That's because it wasn't written by a progressive.
Whelp, Macy Gray blinked out her SOS while giving her groveling public apology.
Sit on the sidelines and snicker. Bowf sidez!
That's what makes Amazon's 2021 decision to stop selling When Harry Became Sally so strange.
Not strange at all. Not in the slightest. All according to plan.
I am a man more planned against than planning.
hysterical overreaction to the slightest pushback, vehement censoring and rigid enforcement of orthodox speach in public....
is not helping your cause, transos.
Maybe it is. It depends on what they're seeking to accomplish.
If they're attempting rational persuasion these tactics will backfire. But what if they're satisfied with outward conformity?
ENB, you’re not socially liberal, you’re socially progressive. There is a world of difference.
it's like the difference between being for the common man and being a communist.