Professor Sues University of Washington Over 'Land Acknowledgment' Investigation
Stuart Reges placed a land acknowledgment in his syllabus. Just not the one his university wanted.
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When Stuart Reges, a University of Washington computer science professor, was directed to place a land acknowledgment in his syllabus, he wrote one of his own. That land acknowledgment may very well get him fired.
For the fall 2021 semester, the university's computer science department recommended that professors place a land acknowledgment in their syllabi. On a list of syllabus "best practices," administrators gave the following language as a template: "The University of Washington acknowledges the Coast Salish peoples of this land, the land which touches the shared waters of all tribes and bands within the Suquamish, Tulalip and Muckleshoot nations."
Reges has been an outspoken advocate—and occasional provocateur—for free speech during his long career in academia. "I've said things you're not supposed to say. I was openly gay in 1979 when it was not popular to be openly gay. I talked about the war on drugs in the early 90s and got fired from Stanford for that," Reges told the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. "And for the past four or five years, I've been dealing with what I call the equity agenda and fighting back against that. So I took the opportunity to make a political statement I know they wouldn't be happy with."
Seeing an opportunity, Reges wrote his own land acknowledgment. He wrote, "I acknowledge that by the labor theory of property the Coast Salish people can claim historical ownership of almost none of the land currently occupied by the University of Washington."
Administrators quickly retaliated, calling the statement "offensive" and arguing that it would create a "toxic environment." Administrators removed the land acknowledgment from the syllabus posted on Reges' course website. When Reges replaced the new file with his original syllabus, university officials "set the file protection so that I could not change it [back]." Administrators also created an alternative "shadow" section of his course, taught by another professor using recorded lectures. Approximately 30 percent of Reges' students switched into this alternative section.
In an email to Reges, the director of the engineering school, Magdalena Balazinska, claimed that the problem wasn't Reges' opinion, it was that he used language outside the exact phrasing recommended by the University.
Balazinska wrote that she would "ask any instructor who uses a land acknowledgment other than the [University of Washington] land acknowledgment to remove or replace it." However, this did not happen. As Reges' lawsuit alleges, "other faculty at the Allen School continue to include land acknowledgment statements in their syllabi that differ from the University's own statement, so long as they express a viewpoint consistent with the University's recommended version."
After Reges announced his intention to put the "land acknowledgment" in his syllabus for the spring 2022 semester, administrators opened an investigation against him for alleged violations of university anti-harassment policies. The investigation has gone on for over 130 days and may result in Reges' termination.
On Wednesday, Reges filed a lawsuit against the University of Washington. He claims that the University is violating his First Amendment rights by engaging in a retaliatory investigation of him under an overly broad "harassment" policy.
Reges is backed by the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, a nonpartisan First Amendment rights organization that has emerged as a consistent player in campus free speech fights, defending students and faculty who are disciplined, rebuked, or terminated for protected speech.
"This is important for protecting faculty rights because faculty necessarily speak on public issues as part of their teaching, research, and publication," FIRE Attorney Josh Bleisch tells Reason. "Prof. Reges decided to file this lawsuit in order to reaffirm that when public university faculty speak on controversial public issues, that speech is protected even when that speech is part of their teaching or other job duties."
The university punished Reges for his land acknowledgment but not other professors who offered their own personalized land acknowledgments. According to FIRE, those professors' statements toed the university's party line. So, it seems the university discriminated against Reges on the basis of his political viewpoint—an action clearly prohibited under the First Amendment.
Further, university administrators also face scrutiny for their lengthy investigation of Reges for violating a bafflingly broad anti-harassment rule. The rule, Executive Order 31, allows the university to "discipline or take appropriate corrective action for any conduct that is deemed unacceptable or inappropriate, regardless of whether the conduct rises to the level of unlawful discrimination, harassment, or retaliation."
The University of Washington, as a public institution, is bound to uphold the First Amendment in its speech policies. Executive Order 31 is profoundly restrictive of student and faculty speech. In Reges' case, it is being used as a pretense to steamroll his constitutional rights.
When public universities take sides on controversial political issues—and expect their faculty to do the same—one consequence is trampled constitutional rights. As FIRE lawyer Katlyn Patton urges, the value of land acknowledgments "is a topic that's up for debate. But faculty rights are not up for debate."
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I wonder how close he could get to the original approved statement while meaning the opposite, such as misplacing a comma. Would be fun, in a way, but hardly productive.
He should have simply acknowledged it previously belonged to Oregon. And the House of Hanover and the Hudson’s Bay Company
I believe the Spanish were there first and contested the Russians before the British showed up. Indeed, in 1790 there was outright war between Britain and Spain over the territory resulting in a treaty giving Britain the rights to it. The Captain Britain sent to negotiate and sign the treaty was none other than George Vancouver who had a nice Island and City named after him.
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The "labor theory of property" is simply a justification for taking land from people you think aren't using it to your satisfaction.
That said, what is UW doing to demonstrate they actually believe their statements? Are they returning land to the tribes?
Are they returning land to the tribes?
Oh fuck no.
But if one wanted to assuage one's guilt, in my area Ohlone people have set up a website so that you can pay them a "tax" to show how serious you are about feeling bad. I'll bet the Coast Salish have something similar set up.
I am MORE Holy than ALL of ye Mamma-Earth-Gaia-Spirit-MuthaFuckas RAPISTS put TOGETHA, ah sez!!!!
MY Land Acknowledgement: The University of Washington is built upon what was once ocean-bottom territories belonging to trilobites and crinoids. Before that, it was the realm of blue-green algae, and before that, of sub-atomic smegmoids, but we have limited textual space here. After that, the sea belonged to the joy of the fishes in the deep blue sea, and then the Amphibian People, and then the Reptilian People. Skipping a little, Brother Maynard... Then the lands belonged to the Harlan's Ground Sloth, the Sabre-Toothed Tiger, the Mastodons, and the Mammoth People.
THEN THE HUMANOIDS INVADED AND RUINED IT ALL!!! Humanoids evolved as natives of precisely 4,379,652 square meters in Africa, and they are ALIEN INVADERS everywhere else!!! Send them ALL back HOME, immediately if not sooner!!!
Anything less than THAT is just TOTALLY speciesistic and chordate-centric, ye bigots!!!!
SIGNALING!
My land is no longer claimed by the Indians.
They changed their name to the Guardians.
I suggested that being named for John Demjanjuk was not as nice as being named for Louis Sockalexis.
they should have change the name from the Indians to the shityy warroriors
The labor theory of property does have some significance. It means, for instance, that landing on a continent and claiming the entire thing for your king is no good; you have to actually do something productive with the land to claim ownership.
Or consider the Pilgrims' claim to ownership of the area they landed. English fishing boats had been fishing off the Newfoundland and New England coasts for 50 years, more or less, occasionally trying to land to get fresh water or repair their ships, and usually driven off by the inhabitants. Squanto was kidnapped on one of these occasions; that is how he ended up in England learning English and hitching a ride back home with the Pilgrims.
At any rate, when the Pilgrims arrived, they found the coasts almost unoccupied. The inhabitants had been wiped out by smallpox and other diseases, but no one knew that at the time. All they knew was that the land was unoccupied. By the labor theory of property, they had a decent claim that occupation and mixing their labor with it made them rightful owners.
I doubt they actually cared about any such high-falutin theory, but it was there is they wanted it.
The point from Bubba is correct, though. The people of that land likely hunted and gathered on much of it. If you turn land into a functioning hunting ground, is your claim on it less legitimate than if you strip-mined it or turned it into farm land?
The Labor theory of Property is an important tool in establishing roots of property. However, by around 200 years ago, that theory's ability to provide an effective mechanism of mediation was increasingly irrelevant as most land in North America had been repeatedly conquered from original "owners" who would have had a legitimate Labor Theory claim on it.
The problem here isn’t the labor theory of value, it’s who you apply it to. “The Salish people” isn’t an entity that could ever establish a legal claim under the labor theory of value or any other theory of property rights in the first place. Individuals who happened to be Salish might have acquired property rights under your analysis, but just because they were Salish and people today consider them Salish doesn’t mean that those property rights transfer.
Labor theory of value isn't relevant here.
The Salish people very likely could have established property rights, and it was pretty clear who they were. It was a family clan, by and large. And transfer of land to descendants isn't terribly hard to justify.
That said, conflict happens whether libertarians (or crypto-marxists) like it or not. At the end of several conflicts, people, including the Salish, ceded their property rights to the US in return for certain concessions.
The Salish people is a large and diverse group of peoples speaking many different languages and ranging over a huge area in the PNW, not a “family clan”.
It is quite possible that there were family clans among those that might have established property rights. Then their direct descendants would be owners. But they didn’t do that. Of course, they would also have been responsible for property taxes and all the other costs that go along with property ownership.
Nobody can make property rights claims on land from centuries ago based on a vague genetic relationship. That’s not how property rights work. Property is either passed along in a legal way to descendants or those property rights are lost.
Property rights are one of the few areas in which I am a utilitarian. In the sense of “what regime will create the greatest prosperity and least injury to people living now”
Any morals or rights based system of property that looks too closely At history will find that almost all modern property claims rest on a foundation of theft and murder. At some point in the past, often not too distant, the ancestors of the current occupants, or the people they bought the land from, took that land from the previous occupants by force.
I actually think the rule of law is important, not just utilitarian assignment of property to people.
I’m just saying that under no system of property rights that I know of can anyone claim ownership of land today because of some vague ethnic connection with people centuries ago. Property rights are individual, specific legal rights.
But what about descending from some ancestral being that crawled out of a hole from the underworld?
Kinda like:
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Except it didn't derive from the masses for most of history? I agree that popular sovereignty is the best system, but not the only. There was a value to monarchy in its time, as much as that seems ridiculous to us now.
"The Salish people is a large and diverse group of peoples speaking many different languages and ranging over a huge area in the PNW, not a “family clan”."
When they lost this land, that was not really the case.
"It is quite possible that there were family clans among those that might have established property rights. Then their direct descendants would be owners. But they didn’t do that."
I would disagree that some sort of process is necessary to "establish" (or continue) property rights. If Property rights are natural by way of working land, then passing them on is equally natural and doesn't require some special administrator or paperwork.
"Property is either passed along in a legal way to descendants or those property rights are lost."
Then in that case, no one owned land until some official magistrate came in to declare it so.
Descendants of natives don’t have a claim because they haven’t been paying taxes to the white man on the land he took from them?
Nah dawg. That’s where the labor theory proves itself to be nothing but a justification of conquest.
Yes, conquest is the mechanism by which humans have established claims. So it’s not like the most recent native Americans have been uniquely screwed.
Their own battles of conquest are what set the stage for the success of the Spanish.
Their own battles of conquest are what set the stage for the success of the Spanish.
Their own battles of conquest and their failure to meet intruders on equal technological terms. They weren't cultures structured for success or longevity.
I'm not responding only to you but to this thread, still, I think it's trouble to deny the value of a theory that works because it lacks sufficient purity. I don't think your idea would allow for a transition out of conquest- and/or feudal-based legitimacy. Even if the labor theory of property was just a cover for theft, wouldn't the alternative look a lot like feudalism, except based on race? If the natives as a group were entitled to hold North America as their property indefinitely, any other race who came here would have to live on their land as serfs, wouldn't they? That wouldn't just apply to white people, but all the other races that eventually came over. Unless the land is made into tradable property owned by individuals, as per the labor theory, then one group owns a continent as a kind of landed estate which cannot be sold, lost or otherwise alienated, and is handed down to heirs forever regardless of the present owner's behavior. How would it work out otherwise? The state could own everything I guess.
The Salish people is a large and diverse group of peoples speaking many different languages and ranging over a huge area in the PNW, not a “family clan”.
Moreover, it's not like it's a demonym developed and employed by contemporaries in some point in history like the Iliniwek. It's a modern shorthand applied by linguists. Saying they're a large clan is like saying Romantic language speakers are a large clan.
(And, sorry, “labor theory of value” was a typo; I meant “labor theory of property”.)
If you turn land into a functioning hunting ground, is your claim on it less legitimate than if you strip-mined it or turned it into farm land?
It sure as hell isn't. The problem is that these sort of things always leave out the Law of Conquest from the equation, which is ironic considering how much university shitwits love to indulge in the garment-rending over stolen land.
But Bubba's main point is the correct one--if these universities actually took any of this land acknowledgement shit seriously, they'd shut down ALL operations and simply give that land back to the tribes. It's completely fucking hollow, just like the overall state of academia these days.
My question is what the fuck does it have to do with computer science? Why the hell would that be in a syllabus for a computer science class, or a math class, or a physics class? Put it in the mission statement of the college if you want, but it doesn't belong in a computer science syllabus any more than affirmation of oppression of blacks and men in dresses does.
They had to replace the Lord's Prayer with something
Ha
Back in Ingerland, royal or "noble" persons had vassals assigned to maintain hunting parks - parkers (parquier.)
"hitching a ride back home with the Pilgrims"? They met him when they landed in America, he didn't ride with them from England.
And Indian agriculture and other activities surely did modify the landscape in some ways, so yeah, they "mixed their labor with the land".
Some of the land. See his note about you can't claim the entire continent because you have a house on one acre. North America was badly depopulated by small pox, too the point that there weren't people in the vast majority of land.
There were interesting journal records a century apart. A Spaniard (Ponce de Leon?) started in Florida, traipsed through Arkansas, returned to Mexico in Texas or New Mexico, and reported tremendous numbers of natives everywhere. A Frenchman (La Salle?) came down the Mississippi a hundred years later, and reported the same area devoid of any inhabitants.
Dan S. will tell me where I screwed up, I am sure. I apologize in advance.
Yeah, this is a major theory. Same with attempts to found colonies pre-Plymouth Rock. They would set up towns, but couldn't find room to forage or hunt, because natives had largely taken this land. It wasn't that they were developing the land, it was that you would go hunting, and come across natives who were also hunting.
The text you are largely summarizing is "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.
It wasn't that they were developing the land, it was that you would go hunting, and come across natives who were also hunting.
Also, depending on the region and the people Illocust's comment about "You can't claim a continent because you have a house on one acre" could be more aptly portrayed as "You can't claim an entire State because you have a *summer* house on one acre." There are tribal region maps all over the country where tribes roamed and, technically, set foot all over Montana and S. Dakota or every 10 mi. square between the Great lakes and the Missouri river, but when you look at where they actually lived, it was an area the size of a large county and it moved year to year. The total range usually being identified historically by the discovery of arrowheads, burial mounds, and clay pots. Which is no more legitimate or less conflicted than planting flags. Imagine identifying where the US has been by discovering canteens, white crosses, and .30-06, 5.56, and 7.62 shell casings 100-200 yrs. later.
A Spaniard (Ponce de Leon?)
Cabeza de Vaca. Started off shipwrecked and kidnapped by Seminole in FL and made his way back to Mexico City over the course of several years.
But he was the first European any of those people around the Gulf had ever seen.
Hernando de Soto and the Army of Florida. Only a handful of men survived the overland trip from Florida to Texas. (More of the 300 pigs he brought along for food survived, turned feral, and became the hogs now populating the Southeast). It would make an epic movie, except it would never be made now.
De Soto "discovered" the Mississippi River, which was already heavily populated by Indigenous peoples. He and his men only escaped murder because they believed he was a god, a ruse which failed when he died of an illness. His men buried him secretly in the Mississippi River, but eventually his disappearance was noted.
I understand the aftermath of the Plagues in medieval europe left (50%) of the properties intact but empty. Property was occupied without regards to the now dead owners by the living taking what they wanted without force.
The plague theory of property
He had learned English in England; whether he came back with the Pilgrims or some earlier ship is immaterial. Sorry if I got some meaningless detail wrong.
Whether or not Squanto was on the Mayflower is hardly a 'meaningless detail'.
There were no coastal Indians left to mix their labor with the land, that's the point.
Please concentrate.
Yes, and those individuals who did that arguably acquired property rights in the land. And those property rights died with them when they died without having a proper legal inheritance set up. I don’t get to claim ownership of parts of Poland just because I am genetically related to people who came from there.
I'm not sure if the Prof was referencing Locke's original Labor Theory of Value or Marx's modification of Locke into Marx's Labor Theory of Economic Value. Reading up on the Prof's background I'm thinking the latter as he was poking a stick into the eye of the Marxists in charge and their attempt at stifling free speech
Reges was probably citing Murray Rothbard.
The "labor theory of property" is simply a justification for taking land from people you think aren't using it to your satisfaction.
Sure, but I think we can all agree that it's a far more pragmatic and workable theory of property ownership than the 'original sin virtue signal
theoryof property'.As he has stated, the land on which UW sits was rugged forest and never used by the Salish. It was cleared only when the university was chartered.
Completely false. The Suquamish used that land as apart of their usual and accustomed territories
==>Still befuddled as to what a "land acknowledgement" is; wondering if water and air are going to demand equal time.
Same here. WTF?
Having read the recommended phrasing, I am wondering more why the fuck it's expected on the syllabus for classes taught by a Computer Science professor.
That should have... computer shit. What you'll study, what course materials you need, what's expected and when. Why the fuck do you need university mandated political posturing? Just tell me what to buy and when to have my assignments ready and let me learn the class materials.
If this is where they expend their time and resources the people who should be suing are students for defrauding them. They’re spouting woke drivel instead of providing education.
Maybe I should enroll there so I can sue their asses too. I could use a nice legal settlement and have the satisfaction that they learned a valuable lessons.
Oh, who am I kidding? Progtards don’t learn lessons.
That's my question as well. It has no place in a course syllabus, put it in the college mission statement or something, put it on a billboard on campus, but it's valueless drivel in a syllabus. Heck, why not make the first half of the computer science syllabus all about oppression of blacks and trans and gays and women and people with a gimpy leg?
Yeh, but most content in syllabi is valueless drivel. Case in point, when I make my syllabi for my classes they are usually about 6 pages or so (with over half of that being a schedule with readings, assignments, tests, etc. laid out in detail). Once I take all the crap I'm required to put in my syllabus and append it to the very end under the banner of "other policies" it balloons to about 16-18 pages (and it gets longer every year as they figure out more and more shit to put in it).
More accurately, your syllabus is 6 pages. The rest is crap that doesn't belong in a syllabus.
Wow. I don't think I remember any syllabi that were more than 1 or 2 pages.
In classical economics, the only group that kept a belief in labor theory of value were Marx and his ists.
This is the labor theory of property, dumbass, which asserts that land only becomes property to the extent that you mix in your labor to produce value. Such as grow crops, raise cattle, build a factory, etc.
Or something like that. It is NOT the labor theory of value. Even chemjeff understands the difference.
Locke most certainly had both value and property theories, dumbass. It has been argued among philosophers which is which and whether one bleeds over into the other or are intertwined at the roots. Locke himself implied both lead to each other and I would point you towards his writings on intellectual property where he flat out says one leads to the other. A good read on this subject is found in "Social Philosophy and Policy" Cambridge University Press.
Property is a Legal construct not an economic one. Specifically acombination of three rights - usus, fructus, and abusus.
Re land specifically, historically abusus was never attached to particular parcels of land below the level of the sovereign. Until enclosure during feudal times and which really didn't become fully normalized until post-industrialization.
Abusus is precisely the right that legally allows the land to be alienated/stolen from those who were 'usus'ing the land.
Applying the labor theory of value to legal property in land is little more than deceitful bamboozle. Leaky enough to make sure it doesn't really apply to those who labor (aboriginal, slaves, farm workers, etc). Serving the purpose of deceiving people that land is really created like other property. All so that rent and subsequently rentiership can be ignored in an economy.
I like the breakdown at the beginning.
Well, alright, I agree that the theory has a bumpy takeoff, but once it's been going for centuries, land just does become one more medium of exchange, for trading labor for labor. Doesn't it? Alternatively, it becomes a store of value, somewhat similar to money, and just like other tangible things that can be resold. I work to earn money and use it to buy land from a person who bought that land at an earlier date with the proceeds of his labor. Of course, there's inheritances. But if you look at the turnover rate of individual properties, land really does look like a kind of slow-moving money. Rarely stays in one family for good.
But maybe I've misunderstood you because your point about rent puzzles me. Do you mean that rents are illegitimate since land is not a kind of property like any other?
As recently as Thomas Jefferson it was very easy to talk about usus and fructus separate from abusus - The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never to have been started either on this or our side of the water. Yet it is a question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also, among the fundamental principles of every government. The course of reflection in which we are immersed here on the elementary principles of society has presented this question to my mind; and that no such obligation can be so transmitted I think very capable of proof.—I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, ‘that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living’: that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it. The portion occupied by any individual ceases to be his when himself ceases to be, and reverts to the society.
Absent abusus, usufruct conflicts over property do not really span across time. Maybe a Salish and a trapper get in a fight over a beaver but there sure is no need for any historical 'acknowledgement' of old fights over beaver among now-dead people. That only occurs with abusus. When the trappers spawn inherit the land and the Salish spawn are killed off. THAT is when abusus 'needs' some rationale beyond my sovereign is bigger than your sovereign. But in fact from a practical perspective, it really doesn't need that rationale as even Jefferson could clearly explain. Only many many generations later is when the 'need' for some bogus labor theory to be used. When 'my greatgreatgreatgrandpappy peed on that treeling so that tree is MINE' is used to claim - well - nothing. Because even that explanation of bogus history ain't worth a shit without legal title. And legal title sure had nothing to do with any labor theory.
What the labor theory DOES do is eliminate the discussion that Thomas Jefferson was trying to start.
Labor theory - Greatgreatgreatgrandpappy's generation acknowledged that someone then peed on a tree and therefore all future generations are bound by the land title that follows from that.
Personally I think that notion of intergenerational binding is way too consequential to be ignored. And problems like public debt and climate change look entirely different.
So far as I understand it, labor theory had quite a lot to do with attaining legal title in early America. It’s the exact process described by the Homestead Acts to establish ownership — improvement of the land. If you improved it, which took labor, you owned it.
But to be fair, the labor theory of property is strictly used to determine the FIRST owner of the land, not who holds it for all time.
The frontier had ‘virgin’ land by European (agriculturalist) standards. A settler came to possess an untouched plot by improving it, which generally meant clearing it for farming and building a cabin. That doesn’t mean his heirs own it forever. The land would be traded on the market like ordinary property. And even then, the ownership of property does remain a matter of labor, since I have to trade you my labor in order to buy you out of your ‘share’ in the land. That 'share' could be the initial labor it took to make the property habitable and fruitful, or, in modern times, the money you paid for the land.
This system also kept the peace between white settlers, or at least defined property theft. In its untouched state, land is generally not capable of producing much value, or even of being lived on. It starts producing value, or becomes more valuable, after you add your labor to it. If a thief watches as you break your back to clear a forest so you can plant corn, and claims the land is his once all the hard work is done, he’s not just stealing the land, he’s stealing your labor, and the improved fruitfulness of the land generated by your labor. So obviously that can’t be tolerated.
And if Roger Scruton is right, the intergenerational binding you mention requires a great respect for the dead. He wrote a book about this in the context of the environment, in fact, but the theme echoes through all of his works. He attributes to Burke this idea of the compact between the dead, living and unborn.
Certainly the Homestead Acts were one way of transferring property from the federal government (sovereign) to individuals. As were the large land grants of the early federal period in the Northwest Territory. The colonial charters in both the original forms and the post-royal forms. And for that matter, enclosure during the feudal era. Or different sovereign-sovereign treaties between Europe-US and US-native.
But in no case was property being created. Existing land title was simply being transferred from one entity to another.
The unique 'property' right in land was the European notion of 'abusus' as itself an alienable right separate from usufruct. Native tribes did not have that notion. Nor do any hunter-gatherers. They all - in all places - had the earlier notion that the abusus right - the land itself - belonged to God or whatever sovereign is strongest because God created it all and the strongest sovereign defends it. For that matter - the notion of a 50 year Jubilee in the Bible is a legal notion of limiting abusus to 50 years and then reversing/restoring it to its original state with that generation.
Just far more interesting and useful than the status quo BS of an obsolete labor theory of value applied to what is often kleptocratic/feudal land ownership.
Yay absolutely agreed that the natives did not have the notion of abusus, or even clearly spelled out individual property rights. So far as I know, they had collective ownership and/or unwritten but complex traditional arrangements. By no means lawless, though it didn't guarantee preservation. They did sometimes hunt big game to extinction for example. Anyway.
But yea, other people here were trying to claim that the natives might own the lands they used as hunting grounds — ownership through use. Use for hunting obviously takes less labor, if any at all, than does improvement for farming, so there's that distinction. And also, as you point out, that would be grafting a European notion of ownership onto the natives' arrangements. What the natives were doing was more akin to accessing the commons, and like you said, peoples in Europe lost those rights during enclosure movements too. I learned last night that non-noble Frenchmen did not have the right to hunt until the first year of the Revolution.
And of course I agree that, at bottom, all land ownership arrangements are based on force, that is, the sovereign. But I still think there's more to the notion of labor theory than you're giving it credit. I don't think you've reckoned with the fact that people improve property and give it a fruitfulness that it would not have without their labor.
The key dividing line between the Europeans, and the mostly nomadic natives and the hunter-gatherers, is agriculture. Of course you can do agriculture without formal property rights, but generally people resent putting a ton of work into a plot of land without having a title. The natives weren't driven to privatize land in the same way as the Europeans because they weren't putting as much labor into the land as a precondition for agriculture. Some native tribes farmed, of course, but not on the scale of the Europeans.
Here's an analogy I heard once. A writer claimed that there's no such thing as a 'natural resource'. It's true that oil is waiting for us in the ground, but this ignores the fact that it takes tremendous effort to get it out. Nothing can be 'natural' (in the sense of unearned) if it costs hundreds of millions of dollars just to do a preliminary survey to discover that it's there. And most of the value we derive from land comes after large investments like that. Bringing water to California, for instance, enough for forty million people.
New research shows that the Indigenous peoples did improve the land for hunting -- by burning underbrush and leaving old growth trees, creating a forest that was easier to travel through, easier to hunt in (more clear arrow shots from farther away), and less likely to be destroyed in forest fires (because less lower stage fuel was available.)
If only California would manage their forests as well.
You don't need a labor theory of value to incorporate individual improvement/diminishment. eg a usufructuary loan/mortgage is where an individual has full control of the use and fruits of that land for whatever term - but at the end of that term the land reverts in roughly the same form. That latter phrase is part of the negotiation - soil quality better or worse, existing aquifers drained/filled via irrigation, minerals mined/unmined, etc. But ultimately a conscious choice is made as to how that land will change for future generations and at what cost.
Labor theory of value really does not add anything to what is possible. It merely prevents any discussion about the property because it turns land into the same sort of abusus property as say a machine in a factory. It is completely reasonable for an owner to run a machine into the ground and to extract the maximum profit over the life of that machine. When it breaks, replace it.
That really really doesn't work with land or natural resources. If you drain the aquifer, deplete the soil, or leave a toxic waste in place of a mine, a labor theory does not require a cost for that and it mostly encourages said actions because the owner can just move on.
That's mingling together a few things that seem very different to me. Public assets like aquifers or lakes are almost never privately owned. They're not the same as plots of land, which are widely owned. I'm not saying lakes should be privatized, but I do think farmers have a right to deplete their soil. I mean, if we were gonna change that, the obvious question is, who would decide what's acceptable? The government? That would be a nightmare.
In the case of erosion, we can't exactly help it. Billions of people need to be fed. There's not really 'conspicuous consumption' when it comes to food. The rich and poor eat about the same amount of calories. Of course meat releases more carbon, blah blah, but there are upper limits for how much one person can eat. And society-wide, I don't really see how greed could play a role in motivating farmers. If a farmer overworks his soil, grows a whole bunch more food than usual, and no one buys it, well? He eroded it for nothing. He's probably going to stop doing that very soon. Farmers can only sell what we're willing to eat, so they're eroding their soil to feed us. We don't have any other option at the moment. The population is huge. Maybe the rich could devote more of their incomes to food so that the farmers could afford to use less damaging methods. But thankfully there's no evident fertility crisis. The opposite seems true.
And your other claim mixes together externalities (toxic waste leaking from a mine), which are a problem because they harm other people and damage their property, and modifications made within a single piece of land, whose costs don't spill out onto the neighbors. The first should be regulated by the state when it's really bad, but the second is not the state's business.
Most of the damage we're worried about is done to the commons, especially the international commons, the worst examples being the oceans and the atmosphere. They're being damaged precisely because no one owns them (nobody can own them), though we might cut ourselves a little slack, since the damage is an unintentional by-product of other activities. On the other hand, when it comes to private property owned by individuals, all the incentives point towards taking care of it, especially if there is a market on which to resell it after. In that case, it doesn't make sense to destroy what can be resold for a higher price.
The places where we live, our cities and rural towns, are actually quite well taken care of. It's the parts of the environment that are far away, and damaged incidentally, that are suffering the worst abuse. But that's carelessness, not the purposeful decision to destroy a piece of land to derive maximum immediate value.
And I get what Jefferson wants to accomplish, but I think property rights are the answer.
It seems obviously wrong that a person can waste a piece of property just because he is its present owner. Our dislike of that is in the name, after all: abusus —> abuse.
It turns out that the aristocrats who named the right to alienate property 'abuse' were right and wrong. People take better care of the things they own, of course, and yet the option to resell your property to strangers acts as an equally strong motive for preservation as did giving it to kin. If anything, the motive is stronger, since you stand to benefit personally, right now.
It’s the things people don’t own, but have access to, like the commons, that are at real risk of depletion and neglect.
Most people are restrained from abuse by the fact that they paid a lot of money for a piece of property (in fact they are encouraged to spend effort to keep it pristine). But even if you gave a person land for free, so long as its resale value is greater than the value you can derive from destroying it, the property is going to be preserved. Or so says economic reasoning. But it usually works out that way!
That stops working, though, if you take away the market.
When it comes to what we owe the unborn, well, our descendants will probably inherit many beautiful cities and a more unstable climate. We will go on spoiling the atmosphere and the oceans because, well, honestly, it's not intentional, it's a by-product of other activities. But it's also because nobody owns them, and so nobody has the motive to take care of them and fend off abusers.
Long way of saying I think Jefferson's approach would undermine the very thing he’s trying to achieve.
The rent stuff is really a whole nother thing. About classical 'land' (and really everything about factors of production) being eliminated entirely in neoclassical marginalist economics. It goes way beyond this article.
So if I plow up a corner of the university nature preserve, and grow organic bell peppers on it, it becomes mine?
Check!
Nobody owns the water; it's God's water. At least that's my understanding from some stoners.
Now if some girl were to twist her ankle on the Coast Salish beach, she could sue them (I'd let her sue me).
It’s in the liner notes of Earth Wind and Fire albums
It's pretty straight forward. It may just be PR BS as it amounts to no action however it's at least acknowledgment of a still existing people that hold current legal rights and cultural history with the land (air and water included).
Yours and others on here seem to derive opinions from a racially motivated attitude that the "past is the past", there has been plenty of history since then so native people should just be forgotten and everyone move on.
College campus free speech. 100% allowed, as long as you say what is approved by university activists, ah, uh; I mean university administration.
Does anyone on campus get the irony? Some of us remember the Resist! students go bygone days, who demanded free speech (along with free sex and drugs).
Sex, drugs, and rock and roll has been replaced by consent agreements, vape prohibitions, and (c)rap.
Any wonder that we are in the age of new Puritans.
(c)rap
Pop. Universities are/were neither strong enough or principled enough to bring enlightenment to Blood and Crip Territories. And while (c)rap may be wrong about cultural or history, it's still not as historically vacuous and socially unaware as pop.
Well, after all, in my 45 years of hiring programmers, the first question I always asked was if they acknowledge land.
No need to deal with trivia like writing code, testing programs, or fault analysis, if they acknowledge land, they will be good employees.
I acknowledge Edwin Land made a decent instant camera.
I ask my chemist candidates if they can spell LSD.
Then I ask if they have any to spare.
I'm a programmer myself and that was the first thing that came to mind, why the hell is this even in the syllabus for a computer science course? It seems from both the article and the comments that the notion that it shouldn't be in a syllabus in the first place flew right over everyone's head so they could argue whether the statement itself is right or not, because this is Reason after all. It seems like now if you take a computer sciences course you end up in a course on the oppression of the white man, and all people argue about is are white people really oppressors, not why is this in a computer science course.
What purposes does this acknowledge serve? How far do we go back? The do know that American Indians were just sitting around smoking peace pipes since the beginning of time, right?
Virtue won't signal themselves.
Again, I fucking hate progressives who fight any hint of Christian religion (which is fine by me, at least in keeping religion out of science and law), but get all squishy inside when some noble savage claims he emerged on the land he claims, pooped out by a turtle that was fucked by a coyote.
I say all our ancestors were invaders, except maybe some half-naked apes in a few valleys in Eastern Africa.
Creationism is stupid and a major threat if taught in schools when it's Christian creationism. But we have to go along with Indian creation myths as if they reflect reality.
They are descendants of the original Siberian-Americans who found an unpopulated continent and proceeded to wipe out most of the large animal species within the first 2,000 years by being in tune with Mother Nature (and by inventing Clovis spearheads and being hungry.)
If we have to do land acknowledgements now, every time the Sioux in the Dakotas, or Montana (plus the Cheyenne) post anything I want them to post a land acknowledgement that the land they currently inhabit was taken from the Mandan, Assiniboine, Cree, Creek, Pawnee and Eastern Shoshone. The Apache and Navajo have to acknowledge they took land from the Hopi and other Pueblo tribes. The Comanche land from the Apache, Cheyenne, Wichita, etc.
We can extend that further to Europe and Asia, wouldn't that be fun. England, all Norman and Scandinavian descent have to acknowledge the Anglo-Saxons (who also came from southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany). Anglo-Saxon has to acknowledge the Celts. The Celts have to acknowledge the late stone age tribes that came before them.
Why not acknowledge the Neanderthals and Denisovans, who got screwed (apparently literally) by those fucking Homo sapiens.
Probably have to take it even further back than that, for each species of hominid that proceeded.
Every building in California should mention this was more or less stolen from Mexico, who in turn liberated it from the native tribes. And as soldiermedic76 writes, we really ought to be diligent about finding out who the most recent tribes strong armed it away from, working back all 10,000 years to the first human inhabitants.
15-25,000 years now based on archeological data. They've pretty much have shit canned the whole Land Bridge Theory.
I've read the latest on this and it is very interesting. The Land Bridge Theory was logical but considering the glaciers I'm on the boat theory crew.
Which should have been obvious once you realize the South Pacific islands were widely inhabited, and had no land bridge there.
The DNA folks claim we all came from Africa. So the Amerindians were actually African Americans. So... Well that's as far as I got. But I know there's a point there somewhere.
You skipped the Spanish, in between the Mexicans and Indians.
Mexico sold it to us. We paid, fair and square, 15 million hard earned US dollars. We also assumed a few million in debts to US citizens, plus offered protection from the Comanche.
I mean, it was done while we were occupying Mexico City -- From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli -- so they were kind of negotiating with a boot on their neck. But we did pay.
They got it from Spain who stole it from various indigenous who stole it from others... but we bought it. And then gold was found and so damned many 49ers were in California by 1850 there was no going back. I somehow doubt Oprah or Harry and Meagan are going to cede their estates to the Chumash any time soon.
Mexico sold it to us.
But the Supreme Court later found (in the context of reviewing the property rights of squatters who had developed land that had been included in the Mexican grants) that Mexico had no right to do this, having stolen the land from the Missions, which in turn had been claiming to be holding the land in trust on behalf of the native inhabitants of the Missions, to whom it would be returned once they were civilized.
And then gold was found and so damned many 49ers were in California by 1850 there was no going back.
This really is the bottom line. The natives had only been turned out of the Missions 20-25 years before this, and also had been nearly wiped out by small pox and such, so that when the gold was found what remained of the coastal native communities scattered and got absorbed into the general upheaval pretty quickly.
Which is why, of course, the Supreme Court decision that essentially nullified the Mexican land grants didn't restore property rights to the natives, it recognized property rights of people who had built things on the land of people whose holdings were so vast they had no idea and/or no way of stopping it until whole cities had been built.
In other words, SCOTUS allowed these various squatters to adversely possess the lands against the claims of the U.S. government.
so they were kind of negotiating with a boot on their neck
Re: labor theory of property. If two people stand at an agreed temporary border and shout that the acre the other side of the line is theirs, one shoots first and misses, the other shoots, kills, and claims the disputed acre(s), was the land stolen? Adding nuance; both men acquire seconds and agree to a winner-take-all duel and the winner(s) claim the territory, stolen or rightly ventured/rightly gained?
Han shot first.
I acknowledge that my ancestors were a damn sight better than the Indians at fighting for land they wanted, and fighting to keep that land once they had it. Really just comes off as whining
Well, yeah. The elephant in the room is that the "Indians" lost and the "whites" won.
But as soldiermedic points out, the Indians spent millennia using the same system to determine land ownership. White guys showed up and played by house rules, and won.
From the Indian viewpoint, the new arrivals abused the rules. They brought weapons far superior to anything produced by the native Neolithic technology, they organized armies instead of just turning out the men of a few villages for a few weeks, and they fought to win wars rather than to show off their manliness. That third point is the most important one - hunter-gatherers just don't fight wars the way Europeans learned to about 3,000 years ago.
Or perhaps the greatest reason Europeans won _every_ war with native Americans is that they did a very poor job of quarantining their diseases. There's plenty of archaeological evidence of native nations with cities and farms filling the area around the Mississippi valley, but with few exceptions, by the time organized groups of white men moved in, the population had dropped by over 90%, the cities and most of the farms were abandoned, and the surviving inhabitants were primitives who could not explain what came before them.
Even these scattered primitives were suffering from multiple deadly pandemics. Measles, which isn't even a serious disease for 99.9% of white children, could kill 90% of a native village. Smallpox, which was still killing over 10% of each generation in crowded European cities, sometimes wiped out entire tribes, even though the families were spread out over a wide area. Several other major diseases came with the white men.
And all the Indians had to give back was possibly a nastier variant of syphilis, but even that isn't proven.
^
Yes, I am in full agreement. This is the story of humanity since Ogg beat Grogg with a stick.
"I acknowledge that the entire universe belongs to Grogg, just like he said it did with his first utterance."
If the University wants to have a meaningless land acknowledgement statement, knock yer socks off.
I struggle to see why one needs to be included in every syllabus. If UoW wants every student to hear the UoW position, the University should print, frame, and hang the statement in every classroom. Then at least it would be clear this is a statement on the part of the University administrators. If professors wanted to include their own riffs on that, as above, knock yerself out.
Shoot, they might even ask about this during interviews and tenure committee discussions. I think it's a bad idea but hiring and promotions are based on all sorts of other subjective criteria anyway. Why not add another?
Compelling professors to include a statement they didn't write and/or don't voluntarily profess seems the height of idiocy. Didn't we get rid of loyalty oaths in the '50s?
Build your own university.
Steal your own land, *then* build your own university.
You don't seem to understand totalitarian collectivism (progressivism, woke)
ya you dont seem to get it...
Performative self flagellation is necessary and required by the woke institutions. Its not enough for them to make vague bullshit statements (without connection to reality) of their own neurotic guilt.
If you dont show fealty by also admitting your guilt, you have not sufficiently bent the knee to the lords of the land, and must be punished in whatever way possible.
In the ends, its nothing more than an exercise in power by those in power.
Not very creative. He could have acknowledged that, by the labor theory of property, the land should belong to the majestic, industrious, and luxuriously furred beavers of the Pacific Northwest. He could even link to few websites to show how beavers have been subjected to a furious pounding by men of all nations.
The beaver fever is indeed an enduring legacy.
The beaver fever
Band name
""The University of Washington acknowledges the Coast Salish peoples of this land, the land which touches the shared waters of all tribes and bands within the Suquamish, Tulalip and Muckleshoot nations.""
Wokeness has become so niche, I don't even know what this collection of words and syllables mean.
I haven't know what academics have been trying to say for a decade.
The fact that this shit leaks out into the world is nuts, because it used to be the sort of thing that only existed in the ivory towers where regular people wouldn't hear it and say the obvious "You are fucking crazy!"
as a UW alum, this doesn't surprise me at all. it's Seattle. about 5 minutes prior to the start of every Sounders game i hear the PA announce an acknowledgement similar to what the UW wants. it kind of blows ($15 beers only available in cans - they're still blaming covid = doesn't help).
"The University of Washington acknowledges the Coast Salish peoples of this land, the land which touches the shared waters of all tribes and bands within the Suquamish, Tulalip and Muckleshoot nations."
That's nice, I suppose, but if you think the land was stolen from Native Americans, uttering this little phrase doesn't really change anything. It just assuages guilt, I suppose. Seems rather pointless.
"I acknowledge that by the labor theory of property the Coast Salish people can claim historical ownership of almost none of the land currently occupied by the University of Washington."
Well, Locke said that if a person mixes his labor with land such that the land was "removed from the common state nature hath placed it in", then it may properly be considered owned by the laborer. Had the land already "removed from the common state nature hath placed it in" by the Native Americans themselves before the White man arrived?
And what does "removed from nature" even mean? If a beaver dam is natural, then so is a human dam made in the same style from mud and logs. If wolves and cougars kill deer naturally, then why are human kills unnatural? If birds and bears and moles eat fruit and veggies naturally, why is it unnatural for humans to do the same? If crows and blue jays can make and use tools, why can not humans?
"If a beaver dam is natural, then so is a human dam made in the same style from mud and logs. If wolves and cougars kill deer naturally, then why are human kills unnatural? If birds and bears and moles eat fruit and veggies naturally, why is it unnatural for humans to do the same? If crows and blue jays can make and use tools, why can not humans?"
Because if you dont allow humans that same benefit, then all of a sudden humans are bad evil people who have committed original sin on mother earth. Original sin, despite being a biblical thing, has been very much adopted by the 'secular' insane left, and they aim to make the normal human state of affairs a sin/crime against the earth. ESPECIALLY if those involved were Whyte, males. Then the original sin cup poureth over.
Thanks for being the only one to read past that first sentence.
Humans are the only species with individuals that hate themselves.
And what does "removed from nature" even mean?
Well, Locke was vague on this point. I imagine what he might have meant was putting the land to some agricultural use. I don't think he's saying that people mixing land and labor is "unnatural", only that the mixing process confers ownership of the land.
And what does "removed from nature" even mean?
Shaped by Human labor and ingenuity. In Locke's idiom, there is an absolute distinction between works of Nature and works of Man.
For Locke there is no debate about the beaver dam. If you come across a beaver's dam, that's part of Nature. If you tear that dam down in order to flood a field for agriculture, you've removed the creek and the field from the "common state nature hath placed it in" and put it to Human use.
Hmm, what if you have prepared and worked a farm field for 20 years, and then beavers build a dam and flood it? If you then destroy the dam, what is that?
Same thing. But as I say below, the problem is assuming that humans shaping the environment is necessarily a bad thing.
I think in this context "nature" just means not made by humans. It's not a perfectly clear line, but the distinction between the human world and the natural world isn't unreasonable.
And I think morality exists only in the realm of human interactions. You can't judge the beaver for making a dam because a beaver doesn't have moral agency like a human does. If a beaver dam fails and floods someone's property, oh well, act of god. If a person builds a dam and that happens they are morally culpable.
The problem, I'd say, comes when people decide that there is something inherently wrong with disrupting "states of nature". Nature is amoral and we have to judge these things based on the effects on human beings.
It’s not pointless at all: it serves specific political interests of Democrats.
Left to their own devices, the Salish languages and peoples would simply assimilate into mainstream American culture and disappear. That’s the normal thing that happens when smaller nations are incorporated into larger ones and given equal rights and opportunities. It’s a good thing.
By artificially creating and maintaining large numbers of small, dysfunctional, separate societies and cultures, Democrats divide the nation and create captive voting groups.
If Native Americans were forced to live on reservations rather than it being optional, their existence would be considered a crime against humanity.
Yea, hard to see why what looks like apartheid is good just because it's voluntary, all while immiserating the people who choose it (by and large). It creates a permanent sense of otherness that surely discourages those who try to leave the reservations. It's even worse in Canada, where every race except native can easily blend in to the whole.
When a native moves to the city I imagine he feels like people treat him differently, surely because they've never had a chance to know people who look like him. And so he (understandably) heads back to the reservation and ensures that people from the broader culture will not get to know people who look like him. Land dedications and the like this only want to dig this trap in deeper.
every land on this planet was conquered by someone, probably many times. in times past the guy with the biggest stick got the land. we even conquered north america for our country. these people need to get over it. this is the way of the world.
Also, I wouldn't think that "free speech" would apply here at least on a constitutional level - that statement is a part of his job, and the university is not compelling him to say that HE acknowledges the Coast Salish people etc., only that the university does. It still may not be a wise idea, but I don't know about First Amendment violation.
He's being compelled to issue a political claim by an entity that is partially funded by the government.
Is it really a "political claim" to acknowledge "the Coast Salish peoples of this land"?
If I acknowledge a thing exists, is that a "political claim"?
Acknowledging that a thing exists is indeed a political claim, in particular when the thing being acknowledged is a distinct ethnic or political entity. Nazi Germany, for example, rested on the idea that the “Aryan race” exists.
The "Aryan race" is a myth.
Is the "Coast Salish peoples" a myth?
Everything is a social construct, right?
If gender is a myth, and if race is a myth, then Salish is a myth.
In what way is it a myth? The Aryans once were a real people with a real and distinct culture and ethnicity, just like the Salish people once were.
Not a race.
Race: A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution.
In any case, you asked of examples where acknowledging the existence of something is a political act, not whether that acknowledgement reflects reality.
Historical Aryans existed of course. But the "Aryan race" idea promoted by the Nazis was mostly myth.
And let me just back up here.
You said:
Acknowledging that a thing exists is indeed a political claim, in particular when the thing being acknowledged is a distinct ethnic or political entity.
That is not true, provided the 'thing' actually exists. Acknowledging reality is not a political claim. Period. It isn't subject to various interpretations or beliefs or ideologies, it simply exists.
The Salish people don’t exist anymore.
Acknowledging reality is not a political claim. Period. It isn't subject to various interpretations or beliefs or ideologies, it simply exists
This is pretty rich coming from you, considering your spirited defense of troonery.
Is denying reality a political claim then?
Denying the holocaust can get you prison time in Germany.
I hope he wins the lawsuit.
I mean, it seems like compelled speech, and is not strictly necessary for him to fulfill his role of teaching computer science. If you worked at a store, it'd be one thing for your boss to insist that you greet customers, another if he ordered you to say to everyone who walked in 'the natives lived here before us' or else be fired. It's a factual statement, but obviously there's a motive for reciting a fact at a given place and time, in this case a motive that has nothing to do with running a store well.
And if the University's claim isn't political, then why are they so eager to censor his counterclaim?
"that statement is a part of his job, and the university is not compelling him to say that HE acknowledges the Coast Salish people etc., only that the university does."
This would essentially eliminate half of all free speech cases in the university system.
Land acknowledgements are a big thing now in Canada and the extreme lefty areas in Norcal, Oregon, and Washington.
Those folks are more than welcome to turn over their land and resources to native americans to make things right. Otherwise, no one really gives a shit about your land acknowledgement, its just a way to appear virtuous without actually putting any skin in the game. Like putting up a PRIDE flag in your front yard.
It's worse than a PRIDE flag. It's official humble bragging of being a thief and proud of it, and in-your-face double-dog dare to do anything about it. "Yeah, you loser, we admit we stole this land from you, and we're proud of being winners. Whatcha gonna do about it, huh, losers?"
Oh, it’s not just humble bragging. Democrats and progressives are trying to do whatever they can to split the US into lots of little mutually antagonistic interest groups and cultures. This is just a small part of that. It maintains and reinforces the fiction that something like “the Salish people” should be maintained as a separate geographic, political, and cultural entity, and justifies in turn special government services and handouts.
The public schools I was in from K-12 (1970's-80's) indoctrinated me in none of this hogwash. Manifest Destiny was divinely inspired, slavery was a necessary evil, indians helped the Pilgrams, Washington chopped cherry trees, Jefferson wrote wise things and never seemed to own anything untoward, Patric Henry said 'give me liberty or give me death', and Hamilton was never mentioned.
You mean to tell me that proglodites claim that my State sponsored education is not to their liking? Shit no.
Well, American education obviously was already lousy in the 1970s.
No, this is not humble bragging. It is tantamount to catholic confession. Sure I fucked my brother's wife. But I'm sorry about it, so I still get to go to heaven, yes?
It might be like confession, in that some broken people love to wallow in guilt.
A good analogy, but I have known people who bragged about how they had bragged in confession.
Well, the current Pope to the contrary, you actually have to stop doing the stuff you confessed to, otherwise when you're giving an account of deeds done in the body, the sincerity of your supposed repentance will be an issue.
Someone should explain to the left that without white Europeans what is now America and Canada would be as corrupt and dysfunctional as Central-America.
No that is capitalism's fault, because money and such, you see?
not just corrupt and dysfunctional but lets admit it, human sacrifice might still be a thiing
Yeah, Americans and Canadians might be killing their children in sick rituals.
You mean like sterilizing, castrating, and mutilizing them?
It's a shame to see academia return to a pre-enlightenment stage. Once upon a time universities were all essentially theological institutes, training the priesthood in dogma. And during those centuries, humanity stagnated and suffered, and little knowledge of consequence developed.
I hold two honorary academic appointments. I get closer to resigning those, especially at the local college that has gone pretty woke, including an evolving land acknowledgment--the latest version is a video that must be played at any public event. The only thing that keeps me from quitting is the attitude from some students who also detest woke politics.
Land acknowledgements in France
"We stand today on land we must recognize as stolen from Constantine the Great"
in Ukraine:
"We must acknowledge that we stand on lands rightfully owned by the Great Khan"
Now do the Sudetenland.
Here, in Mexico city, we admit our guilt for standing on the lands formerly owned by Queen Isabella.
My personal tic, to the great annoyance of my Chilean GF, is to claim whatever new thing we've bought or new place we've traveled to for Queen Isabella of Spain.
Racist, misogynistic, likely on-the-spectrum, obsolete, disaffected clingers have rights, too.
When are you going back to the land of your mayo ancestors, hicklib?
Yes you do, rev. Carry on…… for as long as your betters permit.
What a homophobe you are, Artie.
Live by the meaningless performative gesture, die by the meaningless performative gesture.
I believe Microsoft does the land acknowledgement thing before their press conferences.
There was a war the Natives lost they lose their land that's the way it's always worked everywhere. Now I wish the Europeans had just said "You're Americans now build a town and live like us." but they didn't and it's been a mess ever since.
Now I wish the Europeans had just said "You're Americans now build a town and live like us." but they didn't and it's been a mess ever since.
That's what they did eventually--that was the whole point of the reservation system going back to the removal of the southeastern tribes to Oklahoma, and the Bosque Redondo with the Mescaleros and Navajos. Except reservation systems have largely been a complete failure, because trying to immediately adapt societies that tend to not settle in one spot ended up causing a lot of social dysfunction that essentially turned tribes in to wards of the state.
I think the southeastern tribes like the Cherokee were pretty settled.
This land is my land
It used to be your land
I went and grabbed it
You dumb stupid git
But don't you fret, yo
You have a casino
The stuff we steel
You can get back on the roulette wheel
Oh, spare me the self-righteous indignation. Not only were Native Americans given their own sovereign states, they were also given full US citizenship and massive US government subsidies. That’s a lot more generous than just about any other empire or nation treated stone age people.
The good old rule, the simple plan
That they should take, who have the power
And they should keep, who can
Let's keep an eye on (say) China in case they want to apply that principle to us.
There's a reason that the term "leaving the reservation" has entered the language.
The more Native Americans assimilate (if not culturally, at least economically and socially), the better they do. We can gripe about it, but it's reality, and we can't turn the clock back to an imagined Arcadia.
"self-righteous indignation"
Speak for yourself, I'm just describing the way land titles are determined on the international level.
It's now in the Native Americans' interest to support the U. S. vis-a-vis nations (you know, China) that want to grab our stuff. If the Native Americans think they got a raw deal from Washington, wait until Beijing gets their hooks into them.
I agree that the best thing for “Native Americans” is to leave the reservation and assimilate into mainstream US culture. Same for every immigrant and minority in the US.
But your little ditty was either sarcastic or demeaning. I’m just saying that by historical standards, Native Americans were treated pretty well. The fact that reservations are socialist, racist shitholes that progressives maintain for their own corrupt purposes doesn’t change that, since anybody who wants to is legally free to leave them.
Well, going forward, there's no point trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together. Pretending that's possible would be dangerous grievance politics worthy of what's attributed to Balkan countries.
I would suggest, however, that not *all* acquisitions of Native American land were strictly according to Hoyle.
Massive government subsidies are always bad.
What the flying fuck is a land acknowledgement?
It's a leftist ritual, nothing more.
Schizophrenics invent nonsense words and phrases, so "a land acknowledgement" is a sign that the inmates are running the asylum.
The Democrat party has degenerated to the point that every vote for a Democrat is a vote for this.
It does not even matter if the phrase "I acknowledge that by the labor theory of property the Coast Salish people can claim historical ownership of almost none of the land currently occupied by the University of Washington." is correct or not.
It does not even matter if the professor violated the rules by publishing this phrase "I acknowledge that by the labor theory of property the Coast Salish people can claim historical ownership of almost none of the land currently occupied by the University of Washington." on the syllabus.
What does matter is that it is very apparent that the University of Washington is engaging in a retaliatory attack they all an investigation. The University of Washington is searching for an excuse and justification to terminate the professor, however it is clear that the overly broad rules are not being observed by the University of Washington evenly. Instead it is only applied when the University of Washington disagrees with the speech.
Bullying demands vehement opposition, immediately. It is imperative to make the consequences far outweigh the sick pleasure that the guilt-peddling bully gets from their snotty little power play.
In this situation, I would have responded to Balazinska with something along the lines of: "Oh, blow it out your ass, you zampolit cunt. I will not participate in your obedience ritual. Drop this shit right fucking now, or I will come after you with a firestorm of litigators who will make you wish that you were being swarmed by murder hornets instead."
-jcr
As for the historical ownership of land in north America, the Indians were pushing each other around for millennia before anyone crossed the Atlantic.
I remember being told a big sob story about the "Trail of Tears" when I was in school, but somehow they never mentioned that when the Cherokee were pushed west to Oklahoma, they took their SLAVES WITH THEM. Kind of damps down my sympathy for their plight a wee bit.
-jcr
Contact with whites did significantly change how slavery worked for the Cherokee and their allies. Among most tribes north of the Aztec's conquests, slaves were only acquired as war captives, and slavery was a temporary condition. Pretty soon the slaves would either be adopted into the tribe, die of abuse and overwork, or be outright murdered - usually with torture. They did not become dependent on slave labor, because they often had no slaves left, and did not start wars just to acquire more.
But once they began learning the white man's way, slaves could be purchased and had a market value, so slavery became permanent.
Why would a Computer Science Department even deal with "land acknowledgement"?
Funny how UW hasn't turned over the land it owns to the Salish People. Almost like they don't believe their own bullshit.
A digital-age people kowtowing to a stone-age people. Awesome.
Look, they're just gonna nickle and dime us to death on this. What we need is a universal land acknowledgement:
"We acknowledge that the peoples of this land, the land which touches the shared waters and lands of all the nations throughout the entire world, and through all of human history, was made by God and we've just been pretending that we own it because we needed it at the time. And if someone else was already here, we kicked them out and took it over. No doubt the same will happen to us. Have a nice day."
That should do it.
I'm still waiting for the state of Georgia to give me my territory back, much less make a land acknowledgement.
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I can’t get one fucking post to go up with two cites in it, yet this spamster can get on his habitrail wheel and runnn those spam links at will. THANKS REASON!
I flagged them all for review. You might try that too - not sure it will do any good, but better than nothing.
Lank acknowledgments are complete b.s. The Indians in question did not spring miraculously from the land, they came here from Asia thousands of years ago. Over the ensuing millennia, they fought amongst themselves and slaughtered their enemies for the right to settle on the best lands and waters - just like Europeans, Asians, and Africans did. The ones sitting on the land with the Spanish, Russians or English arrived were just the most recent conquerors who subsequently lost to more modern conquerors. They need to get off their high horses - animals they stole from the Europeans, BTW.
I acknowledge we exercise sovereign rule over the United States of America by right of conquest over the Indian tribes. That's the way the entire world has worked.... forever.
I am a student at the UW, and am cheering for Professor Reges and what he represents for free speech!
Sadly, my peers don't see the value in Reges' arguments and are insisting that he be fired.
It is surprising that 30% of students switched into the shadow section, and how they got so offended over something as innocuous as a land acknowledgement. Land acknowledgements are presented once at the beginning of the quarter, and then quickly forgotten.
Is "fun" even a thing for college students anymore or do you just sit around and cry in your alcohol free beer all the time?
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I live in WA. Whenever I hear one of those "acknowledgments" I am tempted to reply "Give it back!"
Completely false. The Suquamish used that land as apart of their usual and accustomed territories.