Bolton's 'Coup' Boast Undermines Election Interference Complaints
Objections to foreign election meddling lose credibility when you overthrow governments.

After years of hyperventilation about foreign interference in U.S. elections, it's remarkable when a former high-ranking U.S. government official casually references his expertise at overthrowing governments in other countries. Few people want foreign powers meddling in political processes; creating domestic chaos is usually considered a local privilege. But complaints about such interference lose credibility when it turns out that fiddling with overseas governance is a hobby of your own.
"As somebody who has helped plan coups d'etat, not here, but other places, it takes a lot of work," John Bolton, whose most recent government post was as national security advisor under former President Donald Trump, told CNN's Jake Tapper earlier this week. Bolton spoke to rebut charges that Trump's actions after he lost the 2020 presidential election represented an effort to overthrow the government.
"It's not an attack on our democracy," Bolton added. "It's Donald Trump looking out for Donald Trump."
Bolton's characterization of the former president as a survival-minded narcissist lacking the competence for nefarious scheming rings true. But his boast that he knows what it takes to stage a coup and Trump isn't up to it rightfully draws attention after years of very public fretting that other countries, and especially Russia, have violated the alleged sanctity of the American political process.
"Specified harmful foreign activities of the Government of the Russian Federation — in particular, efforts to undermine the conduct of free and fair democratic elections and democratic institutions in the United States and its allies and partners…continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States," President Joe Biden wrote in April in a letter extending a then-year-old "national emergency with respect to specified harmful foreign activities of the Government of the Russian Federation."
Biden's letter was only the latest complaint about foreigners tainting American politics. A 2019 federal report concluded that "the Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion." And it's not all about Russians: the British government backed candidates and planted fake news stories as part of its efforts to recruit the U.S. to the Allied cause before World War II.
"As long as there have been American elections, foreign powers have sought to influence them," Reason's Eric Boehm noted in 2021.
The U.S. hasn't been shy about playing that game itself, and Bolton isn't the first American to openly admit that fact. In 2018, when asked whether the U.S. ever interfered in foreign elections, former CIA chief James Woolsey answered, "oh, probably. But it was for the good of the system in order to avoid the communists taking over. For example, in Europe in '47, '48, '49, the Greeks and the Italians." When asked if such shenanigans continue, he replied, "only for a very good cause."
Interference in Italy's 1948 general election was especially momentous against the backdrop of Soviet dominance of eastern Europe and is still discussed today. But it was hardly an isolated incident.
"Great powers frequently deploy partisan electoral interventions as a major foreign policy tool," Dov Levin, then of UCLA and now at the University of Hong Kong, wrote in 2016. "For example, the U.S. and the USSR/Russia have intervened in one of every nine competitive national level executive elections between 1946 and 2000."
Levin subsequently expanded his point in Meddling in the Ballot Box, published in 2020.
"I was alarmed in 2016 by how policymakers and commentators frequently described Russian interference in our election as unprecedented," agrees the Wilson Center's David Shimer, who wrote Rigged, also published in 2020. "Many former CIA officers told me in interviews that they viewed the '48 operation in Italy as the agency at its best. And in the aftermath of that operation, as the CIA's chief internal historian put it to me, the agency and the KGB went toe to toe in elections all over the world."
Shimer maintains that Russia continues to interfere in elections while the U.S. has backed off the tactic. But American actions are sufficiently recent that both John Bolton and James Woolsey can draw on their memories of efforts to influence the outcome of elections or to outright overthrow governments.
That said, foreign intervention in an election isn't necessarily bad. Everybody has a right to debate ideas and policies across borders.
"In sum, there is nothing inherently wrong with people trying to influence electoral outcomes in nations other than their own," argued George Mason University's Ilya Somin in 2019. He offered the example of foreign powers openly backing a hypothetical anti-slavery campaign. He added that "electoral interference is often wrong if it involves activities like hacking and deception. But the reason why such activities are reprehensible has little to do with the nationalities of the people involved. And the moral presumption against deception can be overcome in cases where it is essential to averting a greater evil."
That means funding anti-communist political parties in the 1948 Italian election when Soviet-backed totalitarians were seizing power across eastern Europe is perfectly defensible; that's not far from an anti-slavery campaign, after all. But coups d'etat, which are forcible, extra-legal replacements of other countries' governments, are a lot sketchier in the absence of important justifying context.
That's awkward in terms of complaints about foreign interference in American elections. It's difficult to credibly complain about Russians hacking email accounts, planting stories on social media, and favoring one candidate over another when political players like Bolton casually discuss even more aggressive interventions elsewhere. The outrage comes across as wildly hypocritical.
Ultimately, the U.S. has weathered foreign interference in its elections in the past, both overt and covert, just as it has interfered in other countries' political processes. If this country is now more sensitive and vulnerable to such meddling than before, that's because its people are more deeply divided and its institutions more brittle than in earlier years. Nobody made Americans hate one another or contemplate violence to achieve their goals; those are self-inflicted wounds and in their absence foreign dirty tricks would count for little.
And if our political class wants to be taken seriously when it complains about foreign governments messing with our domestic disputes, it needs to get over its own habit of meddling overseas. Otherwise, such political interference is just a taste of our own medicine.
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He retired drug-lords, terrorists. Hell, he toppled governments. Yeah. He was truly gifted.
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Bolton: "I didn't loot those foreign assets! They were given to me as a gift!"
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But he didn’t get rid of the democrats. That would have been truly wonderful.
Bolton's characterization of the former president as a survival-minded narcissist lacking the competence for nefarious scheming rings true.
Uh oh. Now you're going to get it, Mr. Tuccille. Why everyone knows Trump has no character flaws whatsoever and well Bolton is a piece of shit anyway and well just look at how bad the Democrats are. Therefore do not criticize Trump. QED
you bring up excellent points
Bolton is a piece of garbage bush neocon who wants to play world police / "spreading democracy" with absolutely terrible ideas. It was stupid of Trump to ever put this guy in any position where he could get his grubby hands on anything.
And agreed, look how bad the democrats are. Their climate zealotry and economic illiteracy, combined with their newfound allies like the Cheneys (and look at that, we are all of a sudden obsessed with getting involved in another war!), seem to be combining the worst economic policies of the democrats with the worst foreign policy policies of neocons.
Good points, jeff. I guess the US did get tired of winning.
You are absolutely right. Bolton's terrible character and Democrats' awful policies completely negate any possible flaws that Trump might have.
The "are you better off now than you were 4 years ago" game is going to be a very easy one to play/win thanks to the absolutely awful behavior/policies of democrats.
Enjoy going down with this sinking ship jeff, because your TDS (and lets be honest, lefty politics) wont allow you to do anything but vote "D".
President Desantis thanks you in advance for the easy W
What lefty politics? You mean my supposed support for the Green New Deal, high taxes, huge spending? Like that?
Oh wait, your complaint is that I don't treat Team Blue like the villainous enemies that you do. Since I don't hate them like you do, that means I must fully embrace and support them. That is stupid black/white binary thinking.
I voted for Jo Jorgensen in the last election and don't regret it.
Tell me, can you name what the Team Red platform is? Not what you imagine it to be, but what it actually is, what they plan to do?
Lol. Every argument you make is in defense or support of the left. Even the craziest marxist derived ideas like CRT.
You have been told this over and over.
To you, "defense of the left" means "not accepting the Team Red narrative about the left".
No, it means shilling for the left, which you do here... constantly.
more gaslighting
if you keep repeating it often enough, do you think it will become reality?
There are almost thirty instances of you shilling for the left in this thread alone. Who the fuck do you think you're tricking?
there are zero instances of me shilling for the left and about a dozen instances of you gaslighting trying to convince everyone that I am shilling for the left.
that is the difference, you are fundamentally a dishonest propagandist above all
"there are zero instances of me shilling for the left"
This is hilarious.
Completely psychotic.
Just oblivious to the fact that everyone can read these posts for themselves, and their conclusions are clear.
And you are illustrating my point perfectly. You hate Democrats therefore the other side must be terrific and flawless.
Confession via projection, the Iron law of leftist clumps of cancer
Youre literally claiming your opponents think trump flawless in this thread. Despite every survey of his voters admitting his faults.
Are you just ignorant?
I was engaging in my own bit of hyperbole. Is that not allowed here? Are only the Team Red commenters here entitled to hyperbole?
I am mocking the people around here who will complain about any criticism of Trump by pointing out that Democrats are awful. That Democrats being awful somehow make criticism of Trump illegitimate.
name three faults Trump suffers from
Yeah, Jesse, let's hear it. Name three of Trump's faults.
Let me guess, it is along the lines of "he's too humble"
He's bombastic, intemperate, arrogant, selfish, crude, petulant, unfaithful, boorish, willful, greedy and a blowhard... and he's still the best president America has had since Coolidge.
He's bombastic, intemperate, arrogant, selfish, crude, petulant, unfaithful, boorish, willful, greedy and a blowhard...
you forgot a few
and he's still the best
presidentconman America has had since Coolidge.there, fixed it for ya
Who the fuck did he con, Jeffy? Trump couldn't keep a secret or hide his views for anything. Everyone knows exactly what Trump thinks.
Also, do you think Coolidge was a conman or are you just being lazy?
Who the fuck did he con
about 80 million people
Also, do you think Coolidge was a conman
maybe he was, I don't know. but Trump has certainly been the most successful con man since Coolidge was president.
He didn't have you faggots killed.
When my daughter was in middle school and she was pissed at me, she would inflate everything into absurd hyperbole. She would refuse to be reasonable at all. One time, she needed a new bathing suit, and I wouldn't let her get the skanky looking bikini, so she refused to even consider or offer an opinion on any of the other hundred options available. She said ridiculous things like, "Maybe I should just wear a turtle neck and sweatpants when I go swimming, since you don't want me to show ANY of my body."
Jeff reminds me a lot of her.
(Incidentally, because she was being such a little bitch, I got her the stupidest, most childish looking bathing suit I could find that they had in her size.)
he seems to have fully gone off the deep end recently. The strawmen he keeps creating to simp for groomers in school have been particularly revealing.
there we go, 'groomers in school'
Yes.
https://notthebee.com/article/this-preschool-teacher-brags-about-reading-a-book-to-4-year-olds-teaching-them-they-can-transition-genders
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1546217399472402433
Let's see.
In the first one, a teacher tells her students that they are free to choose their own gender. If we define gender as the social conventions associated with a particular sex, then she is RIGHT. Boys are free to dress up as girls, and girls are free to dress up as boys. There is no biological imperative for boys to wear pants and neckties, and for girls to wear skirts and dresses.
In the second one, a teacher advertises a "drag/cosplay" day. Oh no the horror! Kids are going to play dressup! That teacher is a groomer because she is not enforcing rigid gender roles on students playing make-believe! Do you get this upset when students dress up in costumes on Halloween? You know, from time to time, a girl may dress up as a male fictional character, or a boy may dress up as a female fictional character. THE OUTRAGE!
There is nothing really objectionable in either of these.
Don't let the demagogues on the right scare you.
If we define gender as the social conventions associated with a particular sex
The only people who don't define gender as biological sex, are perverts and crazies looking to excuse their perversion or mental illness.
The rest of your post is apologia for grooming.
The only people who don't define gender as biological sex, are perverts and crazies looking to excuse their perversion or mental illness.
is that so?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
2a: SEX sense 1a
the feminine gender
b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
so I guess Merriam-Webster is now full of 'perverts and crazies'
so here's what happened: you uncritically repeated those two examples of 'teacher grooming' because they were presented to you by right-wingers that you trust, never bothering to investigate them. and then when I point out that your examples are garbage, you of course don't back down and you continue with even more outlandish claims like 'anyone who defines gender as something other than biological sex is a pervert'. And now that I have destroyed this claim, you're going to go even further down the road of craziness - maybe the dictionary itself is captured by the woke mob? it's all a conspiracy against Republicans? Who knows. But you won't ever back down or apologize or admit you were wrong, you'll just continue to dig in and dig in and dig in until everybody has run away and then this little episode can be memory-holed.
but I am not memory-holing it.
The rest of your post is apologia for grooming.
translation: I can't rebut your claim so I'll just repeat my lie
So I guess we can put you down for banning Ulysses from public school libraries, since it includes disgusting pornographic filth like descriptions of a man shoving his fist up a woman's vulva. Right?
It's really, really, REALLY important to collectivistjeff that teachers provide prepubescent children with homosexual porn and talk to them about their genitalia, without the children's knowledge of course.
How about heterosexual porn? Is that okay?
Why is it that you think a book like Gender Queer is inappropriate for public school libraries, but a book like Ulysses is?
Prepubescent children shouldn't be reading Ulysses either, though nobody is surprised that someone of your limited capabilities can't understand the difference between James Joyce's literature and picture books of cartoon child molestation.
You're right, I would say Ulysses isn't appropriate for kids younger than highschool age. But then again neither is Gender Queer. The recommended age for Gender Queer is 15.
the difference between James Joyce's literature and picture books of cartoon child molestation.
The 'children' in the book are highschool age or older. They are not very young kids. Also let me remind you that in Romeo and Juliet, Juliet is 13 years old, and she was going to be married to Romeo at that age.
And they're teaching it in elementary and preschool, and you know this but keep lying about it.
then they shouldn't be teaching either Gender Queer or Ulysses in middle school or elementary school. not because the book isn't appropriate for school AT ALL, but because it's not appropriate for those grade levels.
And, what is the difference between a depiction of a blowjob, and a depiction of a woman being fisted? Are you saying that the blowjob is LESS appropriate for highschool-age kids?
Stop talking, pedo.
There you go. You can't answer the question because your responses speak for themselves: Your real objection here is the GAY-themed material, regardless of its supposed pornographic content. Simply talking about homosexuality is itself an act of obscenity in your view. You all don't really think that schools are full of pedophile groomer teachers. This is just a strategy to associate homosexuality with perversion and pedophilia, so that an objection to pedophilia is at the same time an objection to homosexuality itself. This is the same strategy that you all used with the CRT debates - associate every discussion of race or power that you didn't like with its absolute worst elements, some obscure grad school Marxist theory, and so objection to CRT becomes an objection to all of those other discussions as well.
Paulo Freire isn’t an “obscure” figure in the training of teachers. He foundational to modern pedagogy.
Activist teachers or curriculums do not teach “obscure” Marxist philosophy, they practice it.
As far as having necessary “discussions about race”, we’ve been doing it for decades. Schools have been absolutely shrill about it since the 90s. There’s nothing wrong with that by itself.
The line is crossed If schools curriculums are consistently legitimating concepts of radical social equity, based on concepts of identity and group rights, (as opposed to the system of legal equality and individual rights that makes our culture and law are based on). Then they are grooming kids.
As far as having necessary “discussions about race”, we’ve been doing it for decades. Schools have been absolutely shrill about it since the 90s. There’s nothing wrong with that by itself.
Yes they have.
And then the pedagogy changed. And because conservatives weren't consulted ahead of time, they decided to smear it all as MARXIST CRT and demand that it be banned.
*without the parent's knowledge
Not even your team backed you on that idiotic attempted gotcha.
I don't have a team, Jesse.
To your mild credit, at least you did consistently say you would be fine with banning Ulysses from public school libraries if that is what the mob wanted. Good to know that you think great works of literature should be subject to approval of the mob.
"I don't have a team, Jesse."
Imagine doing nothing but spout off ActBlue talking-points all day, and still expecting people to believe this.
lol whatevs
"lol, whatever"
You're too old and fat to be using slang.
old and fat? I thought I was a young'un who had been indoctrinated by The Left and didn't have enough life experience to judge that The Left is evil like you have realized.
Halfway down the comments I noticed that NONE of the shills chemjeff is debating appear on my screen as other than rectangular grey, muted Trumpanzees, ku-kluxers, girl-bulliers, race suicides, tu quoque croakers, racial collectivists, nazis and communists. It's as if Alex Jones has copied one of those "Flag House" episodes from Homeland into the sockpuppet commentariat. Except that here, individuals can Mute Loser and ignore their incessant whining.
Congratulations Hank, you've pulled a sarcasmic and muted 99% of the commentariat, but left the authoritarian statist shill on.
I think that probably says more about you and your extremist ideology than about the other commenters here.
He does seem to be getting more and more unhinged lately. His screeds are absolute nonsense.
Coming from the guy who thinks Biden is planning a false-flag military attack that sinks a Navy ship in order to start a war right before the midterms, so as to improve his team's electoral chances. Yeah, that's totally sane and sober right there.
When my daughter was in middle school and she was pissed at me, she would inflate everything into absurd hyperbole.
LOL that describes half the right-wing commenters around here.
A "Disinformation Governance Board" is turned into LITERAL MINISTRY OF TRUTH where conservatives will be dragged from their houses at 3am and thrown into gulags for nothing more than posting shitty memes.
Any concept taught in school about race and power that conservatives don't like, is turned into 'MARXIST CRITICAL RACE THEORY" that must be denounced and abolished
Any teacher teaching that, sometimes, two men can fall in love, is a GROOMER PEDOPHILE SEXUALIZING YOUNG KIDS. (But of course children's stories about a man and a woman falling in love are no big deal.)
Team Red has gone way over the top in its absurd hyperbole.
(And YES Team Blue does a lot of the same thing with their absurd hyperbole. Around here, however, we are entreated about 99% of the time to the Team Red version.)
Would it be too much to ask that the good-faith arguments of ALL sides are considered?
Youre still defending government deeming itself the arbiter of truth? Wow.
Youre still defending government deeming itself the arbiter of truth? Wow.
Thank you for illustrating my point. In your feeble binary mind, if I don't agree with the Team Red characterization of the DGB as MINITRUE, then that must mean I completely support and approve of the DGB.
Opposing Team Red = Supporting Team Blue
Opposing Team Blue = Supporting Team Red
Isn't that right Jesse?
There are only two political persuasions in this world of ours. People who agree with JesseAz, and leftists. That's it.
My dad commented that "there are two kinds of people in the world--those who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't."
That's some real insight for an early neolithic farmer, Hank.
“Any concept taught in school about race and power that conservatives don't like, is turned into 'MARXIST CRITICAL RACE THEORY" that must be denounced and abolished”
Everyone should be opposed to teaching children radical concepts of social equality that are anathema to actual legal equality, meritocracy and individual rights.
Who but some commie and/or churlish nihilist thinks it’s good and right to teach children that they’re racially handicapped? Or that they should feel guilty about their “privilege”?
You’re essentially pulling the “they don’t teach slavery in schools” bit. When in reality schools have been absolutely shrill about this stuff since the 90s.
In the mid-80s, in 3rd grade, I can still remember doing book report presentations on Marcus Garvey, Mozambique, watching Ananzi the spider movies in class. Slavery or the plight of Native Americans was there was there. What wasn’t was the cynical impulse to Problematize and eradicate anything good about our culture.
The point of this stuff used to be genuine inclusion, diversity and celebration of culture, not to teach kids to complain and condescend to everything that came before them.
Maybe - and here's a radical idea here - there is nothing wrong with exposing kids to a variety of different ideas, in an age-appropriate and professional manner, and then encouraging them to think critically about these ideas. Maybe we should be doing this, instead of deciding to ban ideas from the classroom.
Now do national socialism.
And the point you keep missing is nobody is “teaching CRT”. Especially to elementary school kids. They’re doing CRT. If you normalize absolutely radical leftist concepts like “equity” as a preferable societal norm as opposed to actual legal civil rights (and they are. Everyone is. Including most companies, government agencies, military, media, etc etc.) then they are doing CRT. They are creating a “critical consciousness”.
And no, critical thinking, even in it’s good forms is not the point of elementary education. There’s time for that down the road.
The original point was that Team Red was lumping in a whole bunch of concepts that were NOT CRT, but were ideas that they didn't like, and labeling it ALL as "CRT" thereby associating it with fringe Marxist drivel.
They’re doing CRT. If you normalize absolutely radical leftist concepts like “equity” as a preferable societal norm
You're doing the same thing. Equity is not the same as CRT.
Here is a decent discussion on the difference between equity and CRT in the context of education:
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/education/2021/07/15/critical-race-theory-racial-equity-jcps-what-to-know/7888923002/
And no, critical thinking, even in it’s good forms is not the point of elementary education. There’s time for that down the road.
It is always time for critical thinking.
Pure, unrepentant, pathologically dishonest evil.
Literally cancer.
The other thing going on here is that when conservatives and libertarians make a bunch of noise about something and bring attention to it, and it momentarily shrivels in the light, lefties act like it never would have been an issue anyway. But the intent is fully and obviously there.
All the leftists really suck at this. They just throw up strawman arguments and think they are clever.
Also note how jeff cries like a bitch when people correctly tell him he is an obvious leftist but feels free to claim anyone right of mao a trump cultist.
TDS is a tragic disease.
Yep. Trump's followers are deranged indeed.
It just struck me that everyone's followers are indeed deranged, with mebbe possible exception of blog readers. Neither half of The Kleptocracy thinks for itself. Each hires shills to suck folks into its rigged elections by screeching that if "the" other faction gets on the payroll THIS time, your (treasured value) will suffer (unspeakable acts of horror). Polls claim twice as many people avoid registering to vote because they fear having been branded a "felon", than vote Libertarian.
"obvious leftist"
To you, "obvious leftist" means "loathing Team Red".
You're a paid shill, a fifty-center and pushing leftist tropes is your job. Who do you imagine you're tricking?
lol more gaslighting
You don't actually know what gaslighting means, do you.
you only think you do
I don’t think a lot of Trump supporters have a problem with characterizing Trump as a “survival-minded narcissist lacking the competence for nefarious scheming”. Why would they? Just because you are a self-deluding bigot doesn’t mean everybody else is.
He fatfuck, how long are you going to hide from me? You keep dodging the question about how your support of open borders and illegals, including child molester illegals, got that little girl in Ohio rape Rand pregnant.
And the moral presumption against deception can be overcome in cases where it is essential to averting a greater evil."
If you think that the government meddling in foreign elections is justified in order to "avert a greater evil", then where does that meddling stop? That is where we get to Bolton's 'expertise' at organizing coups d'etat in foreign nations. If the government meddles in the election but the people still choose the 'wrong' candidates anyway, then send in Bolton to produce the desired outcome anyway!
Either sovereignty means something or it doesn't. Either the government respects the right of self-determination of the people of other nations, or it doesn't.
But it is completely out of bounds and nutty irresponsible to think that the Swamp would interfere in Our elections, for what they think is the ‘greater good’. right, Jeff?
When are you going to answer for supporting open borders for pedophiles? You know you helped get that little girl in Ohio serially raped, right?
Favoring one candidate over another is very different from hacking into election computers, and both are very different from orchestrating a violent coup.
The long-term interest of the United States lies in establishing an international system where countries respect each others' sovereignty, so plotting coups and undermining the way elections are run are just not things we should be doing. At least when the other country has a functioning constitutional government. When dealing with unaccountable autocrats, though, finding a way to remove them from power makes sense. That would include today's Russia under Putin and, while I hate to mention it when President Biden is over there, Saudi Arabia under MbS. (Of course, the latter doesn't depend on being elected at all, and elections involving the former now have no credibility at all, which I don't think bothers him at all.)
When dealing with unaccountable autocrats, though, finding a way to remove them from power makes sense.
It does make sense but people get the government they deserve.
Our only part is in willingness to mount an insurmountable and non-negotiable defense to external aggressors.
And by “long-term interests of the United States”, you mean what exactly? The long term interests of the Clintons, Obamas, and Bidens? Of Bezos and Schmidt? Or what?
Oh, don’t bother answering: you have already bought into the cool-aid that “removing Putin makes sense”. People like you will destroy the US and bring us WWIII
Only you psychotic leftists have whined for years about foreign interference when you didn't get your way
Bolton's characterization of the former president as a survival-minded narcissist lacking the competence for nefarious scheming rings true.
Wait, what? I thought Trump was a criminal mastermind whose nefarious scheming was on a par with Hitler, Machiavelli, and Satan himself. Now he's just a clown? Why is he the most feared man in the world then?
I thought Trump was a criminal mastermind whose nefarious scheming was on a par with Hitler, Machiavelli, and Satan himself. Now he's just a clown?
He's always been a clown. Still is.
Now now. Any criticism of Trump means you are suffering from TDS.
But you do suffer from TDS. You're paid for it.
Your advocacy gets children raped and murdered by illegals.
If you are one of the progressive elite, you may refer to clown Trump when among other elites. But when speaking to the progressive peasantry, the recommended terms include evil genius Trump and Hitler Trump.
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Since this is about election fraud again, I'm going to reiterate my positions from yesterday.
Our election systems are not set up to catch fraud after the fact. When people talk about how vanishingly rare fraud is, they're talking about how rare people even notice it. Our election systems are quite obtuse and difficult to audit after the fact.
Many states do have a process-though this is fairly recent-that allows voters to check and see if they've voted. You can go online, put in your name, county, and birthday, and pull up a history of what day you voted, or what day your mail-in ballot was received. But that's just showing that you signed in at a polling station, or that you mailed in an absentee ballot, and it's not showing that your ballot has been counted. Even if you vote early, in many places, they simply store your ballots and wait to count until election day.
But voting is anonymous, meaning there's no way to make sure your ballot is counted accurately. Your ballot nowhere has your name on it. You can't go back and check your online records that show you voted against the incumbent mayor and your vote was counted as such.
In person voting, especially with Dominion machines, actually addresses this pretty well, assuming you've got good verification that voters are who they claim to be. You show up, show your ID, you get checked in, go to your machine, fill in your choices. At the end of your ballot, you get to see them again to review that they're correct, and then you print off a paper ballot. The voter has the paper ballot in their custody, and they feed it into the scanner themselves. The scanner electronically counts it. There's no chain of custody-from the time you vote until the time it is counted, you're the one in custody of it. There's also a paper trail so you can hand count the ballots just to verify the machine isn't lying to you. You even get to see the number on the scanner go up, verifying that your vote has been added to the count.
With mail-in voting, however, you're putting a ton of faith in people who will never see you, where the ballot is out of your hands after you send it in. Someone else marks it as received, showing that you voted, but then it has to be fed into a machine to be counted later. People without scruples might take that ballot, view it, dislike the choices, and feed another ballot into the machine twice to keep the count consistent. There's no way to view that your ballot choices were counted the way you voted. You're trusting yourself to the integrity of everyone at the elections office. In the bureaucratic mess that are most cities, this is asking for trouble.
And it doesn't even have to be malicious, they can create all kinds of errors through sheer incompetence. Which should make you really nervous when you see how certain metropolitan areas always have extremely poor management of their elections processes-the lines are insanely long, they have electrical problems, they don't have enough working machines, they have the dumbest, most computer-illiterate dolts they could find trying to operate machines. But you're trusting the same offices that consistently struggle to do the one thing they exist to do to accurately count your ballots. That sort of faith in government really is inconsistent with my libertarian sensibilities.
Beyond that, what are the processes to rectify an error? For the most part, there actually are none. If you see online that you've voted and you KNOW you did not cast a ballot, what happens? You call up the election office and tell them you didn't vote. What do they say? "Well, yes you did, you voted on X day at X location." Their assumptions are all that people are being honest but forgetful. You can't challenge that ballot. They can't void it out. What they may have you do is cast a Provisional Ballot when you show up in person to vote. But that's not challenging the ballot they've already received-it's only there if there's some sort of computer error showing they received a ballot from you when they really did not. If they find that they did receive a ballot from you, they're tossing the Provisional Ballot out and assuming you're a senile idiot who forgot that you mailed in a ballot-because that's what is happening the vast majority of the time, and Provisional Ballots are a pain in the ass to count anyway. Plus they don't want to let you vote twice, and Provisional Ballots get saved until they've counted every other ballot.
They'll tell you to call back after the election, if you cast a Provisional Ballot, to see if it was counted. But again, if they got mail-in ballot from you, they'll simply assume that you was real vote (they don't assume fraud) and if you call and ask, they'll say, "Yep, your vote was counted!" Which means they counted your absentee ballot and not your Provisional Ballot.
The whole voting process has tons of weaknesses that the unscrupulous could exploit, or that are routinely found by the incompetent. Plenty of people move and don't update their addresses, so they're still registered in multiple areas. Since it's all state controlled, if you move within the same state, they usually just purge your registration in one area because you're living in a new area. But if you move out of the state, states have a harder time cross-checking, so you can be registered in multiple states.
So I'm going in on the baseline assumption that there's a significant amount of error and some amount of fraud in any election. Often the error falls within the margins and doesn't affect the outcomes. But if someone tells me that fraud is non-existent, it really pisses me off because I KNOW it has to be going on. I don't have to see people stealing from a Wal-Mart to know that there's a ton of shrinkage in any given month, it's just there as a baseline.
You can't go back and check your online records that show you voted against the incumbent mayor and your vote was counted as such.
That's correct, and that is the way it ought to be. Because if the state was recording HOW each individual person voted, then we wouldn't really have a secret ballot.
The Constitution does not specify or guarantee secret ballots.
That is true. But every state has some law requiring it, and it's a good idea nonetheless.
If ballots weren't secret people like Nardz would be looking up voting records and then cutting peoples' throats in their sleep.
Yeah, and too bad contributions to political candidates can't be kept secret too. Do you want your civil service boss to know you gave $100 to J.D. Vance?
You mean his welfare caseworker?
I agree with the concept of the secret ballot. I'm simply pointing out that it makes it nearly impossible to verify the accuracy of any election. So when people claim absolute certainty that there's no voter fraud, you know they're full of shit.
I'm not trying to reverse the 2020 election, I just want people to stop fucking lying to me about it.
^
That is wrong. It is perfectly possible to have both a secret ballot where nobody can determine who anybody else voted AND to let people verify that their ballots were counted as they were cast, using similar techniques we use for securing web sites.
That is wrong.
No, it's not. It doesn't preclude the rest of what you said, but it's true and/or not wrong. If the State is recording how people voted it's not a secret ballot. You can encrypt it so that the state doesn't know what it's recording, but the second the State knows how each person voted, whether that's getting the encryption key, cracking the encryption, or not encrypting the information at all, the ballot is no longer secret.
Computer scientists worked out how to implement secret, verifiable voting decades ago. Go look it up.
Computer scientists proved you wrong decades ago. Go look it up.
Seriously, it's kind of astoundingly stupid and uninformed that you think secret, verifiable voting wasn't possible until the invention of computers or encryption.
You can’t even keep your statement straight between your two comments. Are you senile like Biden or just stupid? Oh, don’t bother answering, nothing you say is relevant.
Ballots could be printed with an anonymized ballot code. A voter can keep track of their ballot code without the state knowing who the code corresponds to. Then on election day, when the votes are scanned in, they can be databased according to their ballot code and the owner of the ballot could search to verify that the votes recorded are consistent with their vote.
At the risk of making it a he said/she said over the ownership of the ballot code, have the ballot code on two parts of the ballot, one of which the voter can tear off to keep as their own. If anything is ever in dispute, the voter brings their torn-off end with the corresponding ballot code, allowing them to prove their vote beyond a doubt. This would at least maintain secrecy of the ballot as the norm and then if there's a dispute the voter can either 1) wear a mask when they bring their tear-off to a polling station or 2) sacrifice being anonymous but still have the assurance their vote was properly counted. Either of those 2 resolutions is likely preferable to a voter over the chance of an election official recording their ballot incorrectly and then refusing to correct it in order to "preserve the secrecy of their ballot."
Perhaps the most fool-proof and public method is to return to voting via physical gathering. Candidates can stand at different ends of the street or different corners of the room, and supporters can gather around them. Then we have as close to public assurance as we can get.
Kidding aside, there is no way to accommodate voting anonymity with anything like complete confidence in the process.
That’s just wrong. You can certainly have anonymous voting combined with end to end verifiability.
The reason US voting systems are so lousy and insecure is because of ignorance, corruption (buying voting software/hardware from politically connected companies), and (likely) a desire to enable fraud.
You can certainly have anonymous voting combined with end to end verifiability.
This is between false or a misconceptualization. Just like above, this doesn't necessarily refute the rest of what you're saying, but you're equating transactions with voting systems and they're not the same thing. 'transact early, transact often' =/= 'vote early, vote often'
I said You can have anonymous voting combined with end to end verifiability. I’m not equating anything.
If you want to know how such systems work, go look at the literature on end-to-end verifiable voting. The different security and privacy properties of these systems have been analyzed and worked out in excruciating detail.
If you want to know how such systems don't work, go look at the literature on end-to-end verifiable voting. The different security and privacy properties of these systems have been analyzed and worked out in excruciating detail and yet they still fail, fail to be implemented properly, fail to produce valid results, etc.
Just because you think all the world's problems, every human weakness, can be solved through software that is written by people better than yourself, doesn't mean everyone has to engage in your religious fervor. That's not to say that voting software and systems couldn't be better, but that your blind, retarded zealotry is part of the problem. Some might say that voting could use a few more honest Christians in charge of the process, even if they're right that the people involved with voting should be more honest, the vast majority would rightly recognize that turning voting over to the Christians would be a Very Bad Thing™
You’re delusional as usual. Nowhere did I even recommend such voting systems, I simply stated that they were possible.
Plenty of people move and don't update their addresses, so they're still registered in multiple areas.
I'm registered to vote in at least three cities. I know because I get summoned for jury duty in counties I haven't resided in in twenty years. Every time I politely ask them to update their records, and of course they never do.
You are right that the administration of elections could be more professional. Lack of attention to basic details like having correct voter lists only fuels the voter fraud paranoia.
Other democratic nations seem to be better at this because they have more centralized professional election systems. There is one standard and one set of rules that applies to every precinct and every ballot. But, for better or for worse, elections are decentralized in this nation, and heavily reliant on volunteer labor not professional staff. Decentralized elections can be okay, as long as there is some basic standard that all must follow. And volunteer labor can be okay, as long as they are well trained. Right now I don't think either of these two conditions are met.
I have family who has worked to local polls. From what I've been told nobody is allowed to be alone and people from both parties are present all the time.
As far as people claiming fraud goes, the only way to convince them that there wasn't fraud would be to say their guy won.
That's true where there are two healthy parties. But try on one party Philly for size.
I don't know Philly poll volunteers so I can't say. Do you?
I do know we had a documented case in Fulton County where they told everyone they were done counting, kicked out the poll watchers, and then three people stayed behind and resumed counting. Oh and the doors were locked so the poll watchers couldn't get back in.
I'm not saying they were brazenly committing fraud, but they removed a mechanism that might detect fraud.
They didn't just tell people they stopped counting- they invented a story about a water main breaking that was complete fiction.
They created an elaborate lie for the purpose of forcing all opposing or neutral parties to leave.
I have the video.
Of course they were committing fraud. Democrats are inherently lawless sociopaths. Every time I ever press one in an argument about someone like Obama violating the constitution, they end up blurting out something like ‘well it needed to be done!’. Laws are something democrats ignore, or wield as a weapon. Case closed.
We have both reports and video of highly irregular procedures in several election offices. That means that the counts from those offices are not trustworthy.
I have no doubt that’s the case in 99% of precincts.
But in the case of the 2020 election, only a handful of precincts were sufficient to swing the outcome either way, and election procedures were certainly not handled that way in many more precincts.
Tomorrow we will read an article how Radio Free Europe i.e. is also undermining life liberty and the pursuit of happiness using the same 'logic' used in this sage piece of crap.
As somebody who has helped plan coups d'etat, not here, but other places
North, south, east and west of the Pecos.
Odd that this article fails to mention the US backed coup in Ukraine that ultimately left us with a comedian puppet and a Russian invasion. Old news l guess.
Old news l guess.
As is the Mosaddegh coup in Iran which got us the Iran Hostage Crisis, which got us Ronald Reagan. We could use another hostage crisis as an insurance policy against voter fraud to get the current sack of shit the fuck out of town.
Pretty sure the Griner situation isn't going to meet the definition of "hostage crisis" but Putin should still release her as the next Republican Congress is being sworn in.
Tuccille is using the cynical argument that hypocrissy gives you a get-out-of-jail-free card. If you, as a politician, ever supported interfering in a foreign election you have no right to complain if a foreign government supports your opponent. But if we could find someone pure as a snowflake who has never contributed to a foreign campaign and has actively fought against it, would it be okay to say a foreign government should not be able to influence their domestic campaign? Follow the logic and Tuccille's argument looks cynical and weak.
It was never an argument that Russia cannot weigh in on a presidential election. It was the fact that they used deceptive measures, broke the law (hacked emails) and that Trump openly courted this activity and circumstantial evidence suggests he collaborated. Oh yeah, and Russia is not our ally. And also, Trump was lying about business ties to Russia. And so quid pro quos looked to be part of the story.
Even if we could prove Biden did the same thing with Ukraine, for example, it would not let Trump off the hook. That's not how ethical arguments work. Tuccille is playing the tool here. A weak propagandist.
Here's hoping Tuccille laughs all the way to the bank.
Here’s hoping that they turn up your morphine drip so you can get to Hell a little faster.
This is a brilliant article. Any day now Tucille will look into what The Kleptocracy was doing when hyperinflation scythed down every economy in Latin America during the George Holy War Bush regime. Granddaddy Bush wanted deadly war on plant leaves to attack everywhere from Laredo to Patagonia, emptying out bank accounts and hoovering up planes, trucks, farms, ranches, factories and extraditing traders into Hoover-prisons. The worst of our depression heralded in 1987 was by 1992 transferred to Latin America.
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1548033725492895744?t=rOQZ5YkNhKONkc2PYrXxrw&s=19
Reporter: "When should Americans expect to see a change in gas prices?"
Biden: "They've been coming down every single day."
Reporter: "What was the impact of this visit?"
Biden: "We'll see more when we see gas stations start to lower their prices."
[Video]
https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/status/1548007895714828288?t=TDtORkEUtpk-93aAD7CW2g&s=19
NETHERLANDS - Here come the truckers to support the farmers.
The ordinary people, the real backbone of society, rising against the authoritarian climate change policies they weren’t asked to vote for. The WEF vision crumbling.
And it’s glorious
[Video]
They should drag the authoritarians out and execute them. Which hopeful,y would inspire others to do the same.
Only the winners get to set up the future conditions favorably. And we're the winners!
Either that or it's like pro wrestling, where only the heel gets to break the rules.
Yeah, Bolton read the handbook but it's far too much work for such a lazy sack bureaucrat.
We should offer John Bolton to Russia to trade for Brittney Griner.
"The real problem is Bolton's claims undermine the fiction of safe and effective - oops, this one is supposed to be free and fair! - a free and fair election the powers that be are trying to sell, and we at Readon are lapping like little bitches to help"
-JD Tuccile, loves the boot
After you.
Ballots would help to dispel liars like you who claim I voted for Biden. I've never voted for a Democrat in a presidential election. Or governor. Heck, the only time I ever voted for a Democrat was Mike Michaud because he was trying to eliminate the stupid time change, spring forward fall back, bullshit.
Just one more reason to keep DST.