The Left and Right Are Living in Different Realities
The risk of broad and overcautious policies is one we should take more seriously.

The way Washington's spending grows, in libertarian mythos, goes like this: Republicans want to spend money on X but not Y, and Democrats want to spend money on Y but not X, so they reach a grand, bipartisan compromise to spend money on both X and Y, in ascending quantities, forever. It's simplistic, as myths are wont to be, but it tells some truth.
Recently, I've been thinking about how divergent Americans' risk assessments appear to be—how we seem to have increasingly different ideas of what endangers us and our way of life—and that little spending parable keeps coming to mind. If we can't agree on what risks our government needs to address, if we operate from wildly varying ideas of reality and the dangers it contains, is this the sort of compromise we'll make, agreeing to over-regulate everything to address everyone's (often irrational) fears?
Gun violence is an obvious point of divergence right now. In recent weeks, especially after the horrific mass shooting in Illinois on the Fourth of July, a number of writers I follow have said they regularly fear becoming a victim of a mass shooter when they go to large, public events and expect to retain this sense of panic indefinitely. One spoke of experiencing a "background fear every time I'm out in any kind of crowd, also knowing it will probably never go away." Another, Joel Mathis, worried that these shootings will exacerbate our national epidemic of loneliness, "because the result of mass shootings is going to be that people (many of us, anyway) are going to do everything they can to reduce the chances of becoming a target."
I'd be pretty jumpy if I heard what sounded like gunfire at a concert. But this worry they share with—as Mathis noted—a full third of American adults has literally never crossed my mind. I know being shot in public is a possibility, I suppose, but so are all sorts of terrible and objectively uncommon things which don't influence my decisions day-to-day. I'm not even a gun enthusiast, but our risk assessments here are very far apart.
Or what about kidnapping? The desire to protect children—from being groomed, molested, abducted, and so on—is presently an animating force for much of the American right. An acquaintance recently told me her fear that her 12-year-old son, who "looks like a full-grown man," will be kidnapped by a stranger if she drops him off at the mall with friends. She spent her own adolescence safely wandering the mall, but she can't shake that worry, and 25 percent of Americans likewise report being "afraid" or "very afraid" of kidnapping.
Like mass shooting deaths, stranger abductions are awful—and extremely rare. They're the kind of edge cases which rightly provoke powerful emotions but also ill-considered legislative responses which can do more harm than good. And that's bad in its own right, stifling ordinary life to prevent something already very unlikely to occur. But it's even more difficult to live with if it's based on a risk assessment you don't share, and living in a society as historically wealthy and complex as ours creates endless possibilities for risk assessments to differ.
The pace of change in modern life brings new risks to consider, which is more difficult than simply inheriting familiar wisdom, and our fragmented media consumption means those decisions are informed by different—even competing—informational feeds. This is how we end up with large blocs of the public demanding government protection from something that other large blocs, frequently with the data to prove it, don't see as a significant threat at all.
Recent history suggests two models for having the state address such unshared fears. The COVID-19 pandemic instantly comes to mind. Yes, the past two-and-a-half years have seen many overreaches and hypocrisies, bad judgment calls and noble lies, and an abundance of bureaucratic foot-dragging. The transit mask mandates lasted beyond all reason. School policies in much of the country were a counterfactual debacle. There's much to critique. But as flawed as pandemic policies have been, they've generally—if often belatedly, and with plenty of regional variation—responded to changing conditions and new information. It's too soon to say with confidence, but for now, it looks like irrational risk assessments have not won the day to set the policy agenda in the long term.
Contrast that with how we've responded to the risk of terrorism. You can fly on a plane without a mask now, but you'll still have to take off your shoes, unpack your laptop, go through the body scanner, and maybe get groped by the TSA. A declassified report this spring revealed the CIA has for years been doing mass surveillance on Americans without warrants or oversight in the name of fighting terrorism. Just last year, the Supreme Court declined to consider a case that could have brought some transparency to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the government's secretive rubber stamp for spying requests. And we spent two decades on costly, counterproductive, and inhumane war and nation-building projects across the Middle East and North Africa and still maintain a significant anti-terror military presence in those regions.
Your risk of dying from terrorism in the U.S., by the way, is around 1 in 30 million each year, while risks of death from COVID differ widely but are certainly higher than 1 in 30 million. Policy will never neatly track with demonstrable risk, but are we doomed to live under the thumb of an ever-growing, excessively risk-averse state? Americans left and right are rational about some risks and irrational about others, and maybe the risk of broad and overcautious risk policies is one we should take more seriously.
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Indeed.
Because the left is wholly psychotic.
BOAF SIDES you science denier
If you don't inherently side with either of the "viable" ideologies in US politics, it's not hard to see the ways in which they're serving up different flavors of the same authoritarian hypocrisy.
Greatest "small-l" libertarian t-shirt I've ever seen (or owned) says "Make Orwell Fiction Again". Right-wingers think it's a shot at the left, left-wingers think it's a shot at the right, and critical thinkers understand that it's a shot at both of them.
I think the left might seem to be more fear-driven about a lot more issues in recent years because they're the ones who generally still pay attention to the MSM, which backs their personal confirmation biases in between sensationalist headlines designed to scare readers into "engagement". Those on the right respond to the things "their" media outlets choose to spin them up about, but didn't melt down as hard over Covid because they'd already lost faith in the outlets that pushed the Fauci/CDC narriative and spun their coverage in ways that led to their readers believing that the risk of hospitalization/death in Spring of 2020 was 50x the actual danger. Not that the Q-Anon believers were ever any better informed.
In conclusion, Birds Aren't Real.
You mean like evolution created two sexes..male and female? groomers and pedo are disgusting and should be removed from society if caught...drop them off in some arctic island..and sorry but the left's legions need to drop their association with them...
The gay community always said..."we are just like you..we want to marry and have families"...ok fine..no problem but the LBT community needs to distance itself from the Minor Attracted Persons..aka pedos asap...no puberty blockers, no sexual mutilation of kids, no govt funded groomer or any groomers allowed in schools...ever day more and more libs of tik tok "teachers" are shown to be pushing grooming. Draw a line...perversion is not tolerated in America.
The media - we're all gonna DIE! News at 11!
There is apparently no subject that isn't treated by mainstream media as a shark attack, especially if it is divisive and makes socially conservative people look bad. Kids still hate their parents, I guess.
Women and minorities hardest hit.
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WHAT ABOUT THE GAYS
That's womxn you ass! Get in line with the times or be hunted down and sacrificed for the common good!
If it bleeds, it leads, and it's been that way since ... forever.
One problem today is the apparent philosophy that if it doesn't bleed [enough], we'll make it bleed [even more]. Perhaps this has also been around about the same time.
The electorate is wholly psychotic. And you can thank the 19th Amendment in large part for this.
They should be treated like child molesters since they are now into grooming pre-schoolers and kindergarteners!!!! The left is monstrous.
This article was woefully lacking compared to what the title suggested.
It seems to me that one side is... by and large not living in reality at all. And those few who on that side who still cling to reality are now labeled "right wing" or "far right".
Which brings me back to my thesis: Competence is a right-wing concept.
Prove me wrong.
Agreed. That's why I was so dismayed by the substance of such a titled article.
Compentence, along with the expectation of compentancy are white supremacy.
A competent e person would spell competent correctly. Just sayin'
Racist!
Competence is a right-wing concept. Prove me wrong.
There's an old zen koan that 'Wisdom (or mastery) is like a crane, if you try to seize it, it will fly away. If, instead, you labor to build a nest, it will come to roost'.
Competence isn't a concept owned by The Right but, currently, The Left is struggling among itself between trying to seize it and chase it away with a stick.
Competence isn't a concept owned by The Right but
It is not and my statement has confused people. People who are confused think I'm trying to say "Therefore, Republicans are competent."
I am merely making a statement that in our current political climate, anyone who displays competence, the left derides as 'right wing'. This has been going on for some time and was evident in my local area quite a few years ago.
You could see the transformation of my liberal town from a "liberal" town into one that was becoming increasingly deranged as it lurched further and further left. There were cases where a candidate who personally supported all manner of liberal causes such as affirmative action, abortion, gay rights etc, might run for a mundane administrative position such as mayor-- an area where fifteen, twenty years ago, your opinion on whether or not men could have babies wouldn't even be a campaign issue. But if your platform was to make sure traffic kept moving, occasionally arrest a criminal, keep commerce vibrant and robust, and pick up the garbage, you were literally derided as "right wing" by the local polity. Even one of the local newspapers noted this phenomenon in an article (which I won't dare to google because it was well over ten years ago) where it was written (tight paraphrasing) "Only in Seattle is an affirmative action, gay marriage supporting, women's rights championing candidate considered "right wing".
It was already turning to a point where you had to support the absolute crazy-pants shit that got this city where it is today to be considered a serious candidate and sufficiently "liberal" enough for Seattle.
This reminds me of something that happened during the Bush administration (W's, not his dad's). I don't remember what the specific issue was, but Bush did something in foreign policy that many people disagreed with (surprise, surprise).
Our city council was 90+% Democrats. They spent a couple of months writing, revising, and approving a "resolution" against Bush's action. What does that have to do with running a city of 100,000 people?
I thought maybe you lived in Seattle until you said 100,000 people. That's just the homeless population here.
But this is EXACTLY what Seattle politicians do. They literally campaign on some kind of international issue, meanwhile behind the podium where they're speaking, a woman is being raped at a bus stop in broad daylight.
Competence, and its close relative, concrete results, may not be right wing. But the left wing is furiously trying to expel it from their utopian visions, and instead have gone all-in on feelings and promises to make any delusion real. Since not everybody is equally and effortlessly competent, it must be unfair and unjust.
Everything is so terrible and unfair! tm
The left is actively dismantling the nest while screaming at the top of their lungs, chasing the crane with a stick and wailing that their problems are all the crane's fault.
"It seems to me that one side is... by and large not living in reality at all"
Yeah. And so is the other.
And I'll add: Both sides believe their chosen sources and dismiss those that go against their beliefs, leaving us all to wonder, just what is reality and where can I find it?
And if you're confident your reality is correct, consider the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Consider it considered.
Yet still - - - -
Men are men.
Women are women.
The earth is not flat.
Yes, those facts seem to check out.
That's just your opinion.
Next thing you know you'll be telling me that we really went to the moon ...
Anti-lunar whack job-ism has spread to other countries. Loonie tourists left laser reflectors propped up so that a 4" beam from MacDonald Observatory in the Davis mountains spreads out over several square kilometers, but dozens of tiny lenses reflect back red laser light the observatory detects for measurements. Nobody duped by the fake moon visit story has the slightest clue the reflectors are up there, routinely used for their original purpose to this day. However, the Marfa Lights are not far from that observatory...
Oh the irony. Consider learning humility as well.
Irony? Please explain. Did that come off condescending? It was not meant that way.
Which side is it that doesn't understand what a woman is?
The side that believes the impossible is possible and has for a very long time is the problem.
Which brings me back to my thesis: Competence is a right-wing concept.
Prove me wrong.
I think you're mostly right about this, although I might frame it a little more generously: working in a field that prioritizes being right tends toward conservatism; working in a field that prioritizes being clever tends toward progressivism.
working in a field that prioritizes being clever tends toward progressivism.
The amazing thing is that non-progressive media even exists.
"It seems to me that one side is... by and large not living in reality at all."
80% of Americans agree with you.
Of course they are roughly evenly split as to which side is not living in reality.
So 40% of America are right.
Platitudes and generalities about "both sidez!" doesn't change the fact that leftists are completely delusional.
Dangerously so.
"It seems to me that one side is... by and large not living in reality at all."
Cultural conservatives don't live in reality. Erronious beliefs include:
CRT is being taught in schools
Teachers are grooming children for sexual abuse
Talking about homosexuals or trans people is a sexual subject
The potential for life is the same as life
Constitutional rights can be constrained by states
Nuclear, heterosexual, intact families are superior
There is such a thing as absolute morality
However, fringe liberals have just as many delusions as fringe conservatives. Theirs are just concentrated more in the economic realm and conservatives prefer cultural delusions. But both types of wingnuts don't limit themselves to one type of blindness.
The fringes are intentionally ignorant. That's what they do. But it is not imbalanced. The further you get from the middle, the less reality you encounter. The lunatic left is just as delusional as the radical right.
Reality's include:
CRT is being taught in schools
https://www.thecollegefix.com/yes-crt-is-taught-in-k-12-schools-heres-how/
Teachers are grooming children for sexual abuse
https://chicago.chalkbeat.org/2021/11/19/22791313/cps-teachers-staff-sexually-abused-and-groomed-students-at-chicago-school-marine-leadership-academy
Teaching assfucking, fellatio and crossdressing is a sexual subject
https://www.libsoftiktok.com/p/district-votes-to-keep-pornographic?utm_source=email
The fetal life is life. It's not "potential". It has a beating heart, a liver, kidneys, bones and a brain, you antiscientific, birth-canal-fairy believing cunt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_development#Cognitive_development
Constitutional rights can be constrained by states... argues nobody. And if you think abortion is in the constitution, you're an idiot.
Nuclear, heterosexual, intact families are superior. Because two guys playing house usually end up as this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5087453/Cairns-gay-couple-Mark-Newton-Peter-Truong.html
The rule, not the exception.
His original remark just appears smacks of parody ... until you see the name
Now what is your proof that this is the rule not the exception?
I've seen no such studies stating that and I've heard much that suggests that the overwhelming bulk of child sexual predators identify as Straight.
But she believes it so, so, so much. And her preferred news sources agree. And if she ignores all nuance and the overwhelming consensus on the subject, it's obvious.
Don't forget that she is morally superior to everyone else, so she is right.
And government coercion is a good thing, so why should she let people make their own decisions? They aren't worthy of it.
i was directing the comment to Mother referring to you, so i guess you can lump me in with mother because your initial points [when not taken in the universal sense] are nonsense if they suggest there arent reps on 'that side' that are pursuing all those agendas
I was making the point that that there isn't just one side that struggles to identify reality. Mother literally had to change my statement about one conservative delusion (Talking about homosexuals or trans people is a sexual subject) and rephrase it as "Teaching assfucking, fellatio and crossdressing is a sexual subject" (not even close to the same things) to make it seem wrong. He literally made my point for me with a graphic example of conservative delusion.
Dedicated partisans on both fringes delude themselves. On purpose, because otherwise intelligent people couldn't possibly be struck suddenly imbecilic only when certain subjects arise. Mother and Jesse and Bravo and the various other frothing rage machines are just the conservative versions.
If you think your side is completely righteous and the "other side" is completely perfudious, you are wrong. No matter what your side (or the other side) is.
"It has a beating heart"
Functional ~10 weeks
"a liver"
Funtional ~8 weeks
"kidneys"
Functional ~14 weeks
"Bones"
Begins ~7 weeks, much ossification after birth
Brain
Functional ~24 weeks
And let's not forget lungs (kinda important)
Functional ~24 weeks
So no, it isn't a life at conception. 73% of fertilized eggs don't result in live humans. That makes it a potential life, not a life.
No fetus has ever survived delivery before 21 weeks. Less than 10 have survived before 26 weeks. If it can't even sustain its own existence, despite modern medical technology, it isn't yet a life.
Nelson, while the 13th amendment that states "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." is sufficient to secure a person's right to control the use one's own body, when you state facts about preterm birth viability, you should at least try to be in the ballpark of factuality. From Tommmy's
"Less than 22 weeks is close to zero chance of survival
22 weeks is around 10%
24 weeks is around 60%
27 weeks is around 89%"
https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/premature-birth/premature-birth-statistics
https://www.oldest.org/people/youngest-premature-baby-to-survive/
Granted, this was as of 2020 so there may be one or two more.
And if you look into it, the survival rate you are referencing is for babies that are delivered alive. It doesn't count the overwhelming majority that aren't. At 21 weeks, the chance of a fetus surviving can't be statistically differentiated from zero.
It's almost like almost no fetuses are viable at 21 weeks. And even if they do achieve live birth, most (90-100%) don't survive long.
Because life doesn't begin at conception. An embryo has a 0% chance of surviving at conception. It has a chance that is statistically indistinguishable from 0% through about 26 weeks.
It's not like no one knows that anti-abortionists like to manipulate the denominator to create a false impression. It's what you folks do.
Here's a recently published study (JAMA. 2022;327(3):248-263. doi:10.1001/jama.2021.23580) based on data from 2013 to 2018.
From the study "Of live-born infants at 22 weeks, 10.9% (60/549) survived compared with 6.6% (22/334) in 2008-2012 (difference, 4.3%; 95% CI, 0.6%-8.1%; P = .03); at 23 weeks, survival increased significantly to 49.4% (535/1083) from 32.3% (252/779) in 2008-2012 (difference, 17.1%; 95% CI, 12.6%-21.5%; P < .001)."
Do you find 49.4% (535/1083) to be indistinguishable from 0%?
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2788142
Again for the record, I believe that none of this has anything to do with a pregnant person's right to an abortion.
The unborn have their own DNA. Your argument is invalid.
None of that is relevant. Every organism requires a compatible environment to survive. To be unable to sustain yourself in every environment is irrelevant to defining a life. Not having developed enough is also irrelevant. An organism does not magically become a "life" just because it develops past some point where it's easier for you to rationalize killing it.
It's funny how you perfectly demonstrated the false narrative people like you on the left live in. Couldn't have asked for a better example.
"Constitutional rights can be constrained by states" ... funny you should say that, neither "side" believes it.
There's one side that thinks that a Christian government is OK for a state, despite the First Amendment. The Establishment Clause protects Americans from theocracies.
So yes, one side does believe that states can constrain rights.
Your absolutism is a serious mental defect.
Here's one refutation from an endless procession on the Religious Right:
Allegations of Manosphere Pastor Jesse Lee Peterson's Gay Past Roil Macho Men
https://www.thedailybeast.com/allegations-of-manosphere-pastor-jesse-lee-petersons-gay-past-roil-macho-men?ref=scroll
And Lobsterman really needs some sweet potatoes and banana pudding for sanity-giving Potassium to add to his his Beef-And-Booze Diet:
Jordan Peterson Says Russian Invasion of Ukraine Fueled By 'Degenerate' West's Culture Wars
https://www.mediaite.com/news/jordan-peterson-says-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-fueled-by-degenerate-wests-culture-wars/
And these are guys who claim to teach how to be real men? Shouldn't integrity and security in sexuality and attachment to reality be part of this package?
Ah, nut picking a religious idiot and then not understanding Peterson's assertion is all you have to establish the right as living in a fantasy world.
I swear, the complete disconnect from reality you people on the left are currently suffering from is astounding.
"Nut picking?" Peterson is one of untold numbers of Religious Right assholes railing against what they call "sexual immorality" who get caught wallowing in it! There's also Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell, Jr., Paul Crouch, and here's a whole page more just in the Evangelical Christian clergy:
Let Us PREY – 22 Evangelical Christian Scandals That Rocked The World
http://www.back2stonewall.com/2019/07/ye-sin-22-evangelical-christian-scandals-rocked-world.html
And just what have I not understood of Jordan Peterson's babblings? He seems clear enough that 'degenerate' Western culture made Putin do it.
And what makes you think I am one of "you people on the Left" just because I call bullshit whenever and wherever I find it?
By the way, you know who else called Western Culture 'degenerate?'
If you think Jordan Peterson is part of the Religious Right, then give up and log off now, because you're so far Left everything else is Right to you.
Only a fool thinks Jordan Peterson is part of the "religious right".
OR. If we were actual libertarians, we would work toward limiting the size, scope and power of the government apparatus.
That's about it. What's missing from the article are the incentives: what the actors stand to gain, vs. what they stand to lose. They, the ones actually doing the things complained of, don't stand to lose much by doing them, and although the average such actor doesn't stand to gain much either, a few of them are in position to gain a lot by them occasionally. There may be some nuggets turned up by snooping that give a big payoff to somebody. Somebody can be a big hero by seeming to prevent some imminent disaster. There are opportunities for blackmail. I'm sure you can think of others.
although the average such actor doesn't stand to gain much either, a few of them are in position to gain a lot by them occasionally
It's like playing the lottery instead of getting a job. They all think they can be one of the winners. Because that's what their handlers in academia have told them since their youth. "If you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life."
But how many professional oboe players and marine biologists does the world need?
Limiting the size and scope of the democrat party would be a necessary step to accomplish that.
Fuckin' A.
Lol cunty satanist is an idiot
Limiting the size, scope, and power of government is a great idea.
One side gives lip service to this, the other is actively and violently working against it.
I'm not even a gun enthusiast...
...
An acquaintance recently told me...
To paraphrase Adam Savage: "I reject your false realities and substitute my own!"
One side firmly believes men can be pregnant.
But they can't define what a woman is.
Speaking of not living in reality, Biden on inflation:
“Inflation is our most pressing economic challenge,” he continued. “It is hitting almost every country in the world. It is little comfort to Americans to know that inflation is also high in Europe, and higher in many countries there than in America. But it is a reminder that all major economies are battling this COVID-related challenge, made worse by Putin’s unconscionable aggression.”
https://www.dailywire.com/news/biden-dismisses-record-high-inflation-news-as-out-of-date
Quick, let OBL know that POTUS Biden is reading the teleprompter from wingnut.com! 🙂
nice attempt to look at the issue from another angle.... but you can see in the comments already that the root of the problem is deeper and bigger.....
"it is just the "other side" that does that.......
this is what drives people to those different media streams with their bias of choice.... where they keep you hooked by playing on those irrational fears..... "us versus them" is the problem. it prevents any of those on the extremes from being reasoned with.
explain to people why gun control does not work... you are a right wing extremist who wants to kill children....
explain to people how you think there should be a right to abortion up to a certain point relatively early in the pregnancy.... you are a left wing loon who wants to kill children...
think trans people have the right to pee where they want... left wing wacko.
think passing laws to force people to use the "right pronoun" is absurd... right wing nut job.
you cannot reason with these people, because they reject anything not fitting the desired narrative as part of the other team....
I really want to think that things are less fucked than they seem to be. There certainly is a phenomenon where people focus on the craziest shit they can find. But when political leaders still get the support that they do after the last few years, I'm not too hopeful. I'd love to be proven wrong.
that political leaders still get support is troubling...... more concerning is that any of them approaching sanity can't seem to get support. a democrat who recognizes basic income is a stupid idea can't get elected any more than a republican who admits that Trump lost in 2020.
The difference is that universal basic income is still a policy many on the Left are. It still has the potential to affect things. The 2020 election is history and nothing will change regardless of what you believe the legitimate outcome was.
What's more important with regard to the 2020 election is addressing perceived election irregularities and increasing the confidence that future elections are conducted fairly. This is not done simply by repeatedly declaring they are and labeling anyone who questions anything as Enemies of the State.
Political leaders get support because that's their job. How'd they become leaders?
Sure, but I'd like to think that sometimes people will see what they do and say "holy shit, these people are worse than useless" and find some new shitty leaders to follow for a while.
America did.
We elected Trump.
The powers that be would not allow that to continue.
Am I the only one who remembers that DJ Trump, when the subject came up during his first presidential campaign, said, "I think people should use whatever bathroom they want."?
i do remember it.... i think they all forget about it because the ability of transgenders to do just that..... was one of the first things he got rid of after getting into office.
Mostly because, surprising to you I suppose, I don't want biological men to use the women's restroom my young daughter just went into.
The simple reason is that, much like more than one case in schools, it is a no brainer for a horny degenerate male to dress as a female and use the women's restroom. Rape has ensued.
Yes, I know that people break the rules and it may happen anyway, but I do not see that as a reason to encourage or enable it.
Most places now have unisex bathrooms, if you are mentally ill and believe you are a "woman in a man's body" use the unisex bathroom. If I find you in the bathroom with my young daughter, without regard to the law, I am going to beat your ass.
You make some good points, but I'm pressing charges for your abuse of ellipsis. I'll see you in court.
everyone wants to abuse something...........................
this is what drives people to those different media streams with their bias of choice.
You are a piece of shit liar. People who read both sides know which side is lying about reality.
people who think only one side is lying..... are just bigger suckers than they realize.
This fat fuck is, as usual, lying to cover for the totalitarian left.
It does so consistently.
But they choose to be suckers. It's a conscious choice.
Take any study. Conservatives have more balanced news sources.
A Twitter tool used to see bias of tweeters shows people like Ben Shapiro follow both media streams. Journalists almost exclusively left leaning sources.
Haidt did a study and showed conservatives new the arguments of the left while the left chose the evil answers for conservatives.
This is in study after study.
It is nearly impossible for anyone to avoid the (psychotic) leftist/establishment perspective.
It is ubiquitous, and all the same message.
Even FoxNews, so enthusiastically vilified as "right wing" and the only semi-alternative, follows the script. They had their covid counter on screen at all times, they played up the George Floyd narrative, weren't terribly skeptical on "Russian collusion", supported all the bs against Trump, are lockstep on Ukraine, etc.
And conservatives are blasted with the same (psychotic) leftist narratives whether watching the NFL, seeing ads about fighting climate change, or sitting through Diversity Equity Inclusion training at work.
This is why the leftist above thinks “trans should be able to pee wherever they want” is completely reasonable and should be acceptable to everyone, obviously.
Their only exposure to the other argument is straw men upon straw men as viewed by the left.
It isn’t a reasonable position and now we have actual real world occurrences demonstrating what was obviously predicted.
All consequences of EVERYTHING being enforced at the end of a Gov-Gun... Tooooooo MUCH communism. Tooooo MUCH National Socialism. Not enough Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
There's one sure way to avoid that fate: be the shooter!
LOL
Before 9/11, I used to always carry a bomb when I flew, since the odds of there being two people independently bringing a bomb onto a plane was really, really low (that's "really low, squared" for the math majors in the crowd.) I guess it worked, cause I'm still here.
😉
Ha ha both sides.
Hint these are all the same side
One side thinks men can have babies
One side can't define what a woman is
One side that if we just print more money inflation will subside
One side thinks that restricting the supply of oil has no affect on the price of gas
One side thinks an unarmed guy in Viking horns was about to overthrow our government
One side thinks that billions of dollars of damages tens of murders and thousands of injuries was a mostly peaceful protest
Ok yeah sure
One side can't define what a woman is
Well, then let's talk about some definitions then.
If the word "man" is defined as "a biological male, AND a person who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of men",
and
If the word "woman" is defined as "a biological female, AND a person who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women",
then what is the word that we should use to describe the following?
"a biological male who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women"
You say that this person should not be referred to as a woman. Fine. Then what is the word that we should use?
If the word "man" is defined as "a biological male, AND a person who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of men",
Lying jeffy is lying again. The part before and after the 'AND' have always been separate definitions in every dictionary ever. There have also always been specific words to describe "a biological male who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women". It's just that using them will now gets you cancelled.
The evil part is that instead of settling on the least pejorative existing word with the correct meaning or coming up with a new word, they want to co-opt a word that has never meant that ever before and in fact means the opposite.
I hope you die painfully, jeffy. You are a giant boil on the ass of humanity.
The part before and after the 'AND' have always been separate definitions in every dictionary ever.
But I was told that there is no difference between sex and gender.
There have also always been specific words to describe "a biological male who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women". It's just that using them will now gets you cancelled.
Okay, so what's the words that we should use to describe this person?
I hope you die painfully, jeffy. You are a giant boil on the ass of humanity.
For the record, I don't want you to die painfully. I may think you are misguided, but I don't wish to see you come to unnecessary harm.
Okay, so what's the words that we should use to describe this person?
Trans.
A trans-woman? Okay, fine. So would this be a third gender, after 'man' and 'woman'?
Man and Woman are defined by their reproductive role. That is the entire point in having two sexes. A woman has ovum and a womb. A man fertilizes the ovum.
The end.
And no, malfunctioning and broken reproductive systems do NOT cause people to stop being male and female, since, if they were working, they would be just fine. Trying to claim that these are obvious exceptions to the definition I gave is a bald faced lie.
No one would ever argue that a two-legged dog is not a dog simply because a dog is defined as an animal with 4 legs.
A trans that is pregnant is a woman, even if she took hormones that put hair on her face. Now, she’s just a bearded lady suitable for PT Barnum’s circus. An oddity that subverts expectations for the purpose of shock value. An attention seeking, anti-social malcontent.
But wait. I was told that there is no difference between sex and gender. If there is no difference between sex and gender, then since there are only two sexes, there can only be two genders as well.
So "a biological male who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women" is not a man and not a woman, so is this person gender-less?
Only if they sterilized themselves via castration or hormones.
And by the way I don't want you to think I am picking on you personally. I think you are one of the more reasonable ones around here when it comes to issues of sex and gender. I am simply using your response to raise questions to the general audience.
And by the way I don't want you to think I am picking on you personally.
No offense taken.
The word "gender" is very modal in its range of meanings - i.e. it depends greatly on what context it's being used in.
As damikesc pointed out yesterday, one common meaning is linguistic - i.e. words are marked in a way that groups them into what we call genders, which plays a role in grammatical agreement and can help a language be more clear.
English is only slightly gendered, largely in the pronouns, and English has three genders, like German, while Romance languages, like Spanish, have two. Farsi, as I understand it, is ungendered, which has always made me skeptical of the notion that gendered language really truly is the front line of this war, but I digress.
We also speak of 'male' and 'female' as fittings - i.e. 'the one that pokes in' is male and 'the one with hole that gets poked' is female, as in electrical connections. In that context, there are two genders (and linguistically the origins of terms really are that graphic - 'vagina' for example being the Latin word for "sheath").
In biology, 'the one that pokes' vs. 'the one that gets poked' was repurposed as 'the one that carries the egg' vs. 'the one that fertilizes the egg,' since the mechanics differ species to species. Nevertheless, all members of a sexually dimorphic species come out as one or the other of these. Not always with all functional parts, but always clearly as one or the other.
Where we wade into current controversies is in the social expression of gender roles.
Your family, community, and society offer you signs and behaviors (clothes, gestures, and such) by which to signal what gender you are. All societies have this, but with a tremendous range of diversity in what those roles actually are.
Thus, clearly a wide range of behavioral roles are possible for people of both genders, restricted only by social convention.
Some people, for a variety of largely unknown reasons, adopt what in their societies are gender non-conforming behaviors, sometimes related to same-sex attraction, but more often growing out of the very complex and myriad ways that have evolved in densely populated and intensely interconnected modern societies of establishing one's identity and relationship goals.
Certain segments of feminist theory have for a long time seen value in deconstructing traditional gender roles that limit women's ability to participate fully in society, and this gets at what I was saying yesterday about the Hawley vs. Bridges thing. The basic point of feminist deconstructionism was to destabilize gender roles generally speaking so that each individual could live unconstrained by the roles that society forces them into.
But academics who learn deconstruction are very prone to falling into the trap of imposing new categories in place of the destabilized ones - i.e. of simultaneously claiming that the old categories (in this case "male" and "female") have been displaced and are now false, while claiming the same metaphysical authority for new categories that was formerly claimed by the old categories. Clearly the people who still live in the world of the old categories are going to see that as crazy talk.
This is why one side viewed the exchange as Hawley getting schooled on something he doesn't even know the basics of while the other side viewed the exchange as Hawley having drawn the curtain on the Great and Powerful Oz - you have competing claims of 'common sense,' one coming from tradition, the other from an academic elite, and each mistrusts the other right out of the gate.
"you have competing claims of 'common sense,' one coming from tradition, the other from an academic elite, and each mistrusts the other right out of the gate."
Reality vs bullshit.
Academic dissection of theory and semiotics can be fun, and even useful at times, but the vast majority of it is indeed bullshitting.
Common sense here is biological and physical reality. It doesn't require new words to be invented or thousands of pages be written to give it logical basis. It simply is what is.
The academic theory is fantasy seeking justification, and today desires to impose that fantasy on everybody. This is not only aggressive, it's explicitly unhealthy and a poor basis for State enforced order.
you have competing claims of 'common sense,' one coming from tradition, the other from an academic elite, and each mistrusts the other right out of the gate.
I think there is a third claim though.
The first claim is an appeal to tradition, coupled with an appeal to biology as more determinative than it really is. Yes there are only two biological sexes, but not every complex human interaction may be distilled into two binary parts.
The second claim is an appeal to philosophy or theory about feminism and deconstructing traditional gender roles. But as you note, it is very hard to do philosophy correctly. It is too easy for even people of good will to fall into argumentation traps that amount to little more than rationalizations.
But I think the third claim, the one I am most partial to, is the appeal to pure empiricism on the matter. If I walk into a room, and I see a person who looks like a woman, and who displays all of the social habits associated with women, then for all intents and purposes, that person might as well BE a woman. From a purely empirical perspective, it does not really matter what that person's genitals are, because I am able to have a socially acceptable interaction with this person based on my empirical observations alone. Now, there are times when it does matter - as you note below, if I am a single guy looking for heterosexual sex, I am going to be pickier about the biological details. But for most other social interactions, again on a purely empirical level, it doesn't matter whether that person is in some objective sense a "man" or a "woman". I'll treat her as if she was a woman, because that is the social cue that she has given me on how she would like to be treated and that is good enough for me.
I would go even further and say that of the three claims presented, this type of claim is the most libertarian-friendly, because it harmonizes nicely with the broader libertarian concept of not trying to dictate to others how to live their lives. Whether that person really is a man or a woman in some objective manner, doesn't matter when it comes to violations of the NAP - as long as she's not violating the NAP against me, she can do whatever she likes, including calling herself a woman or a man or a teddy bear or a flying unicorn.
Right now, there are people seriously making an argument that being "picky" about the genitalia (or original equipment) of your potential sex partners is bigotry and "transphobia". They do not accept that there are any circumstances where biological sex differences matter, or at least should be acknowledged that they matter.
Those people are idiots.
Your idea of purely empirical is a process whereby you ignore evidence (genetics, biology). In favour of judging based purely on appearances. Like it or not, a process whereby you dismiss facts (like anatomy) is not empirical. It is just polite.
There are a lot of issues here. First of all, how do you then empirically judge someone with long hair, a dress, lipstick, eye shadow, five o'clock shadow, a large masculine frame and prominent adam's apple?
You are attempting to label your argument as empirical as a way to make it seem superior.
You also conflate being polite with categorising people in ways that have legal and social consequences. Gender and sex are codified in many laws. I am perfectly happy to call a heshe a shehe or apache attack helicopter, in the interests of being polite. However the trans movement is not about you being polite, it is about laws that must be enforced, thus leading to literal violence if you happen to transgress them.
You are attempting to label your argument as empirical as a way to make it seem superior.
...And you have successfully deconstructed every argument jeffy has ever made.
There is a reason people rail against the lefty bastard. Hint: it has something to do with idiotic arguments about social responsibility involving bears in car trunks.
agreed - basically, there is no mistaking the current assistant director of health and human services as a woman and the expectation to treat him as such is oppression.
Like it or not, a process whereby you dismiss facts (like anatomy) is not empirical. It is just polite.
I agree with the politeness point, however in the scenario I bring up about 'the man they call Levine' it is not a matter of politeness. At this level of obvious absurdity, the expectation to treat him as a woman is openly oppressive and demands bending the knee to delusion.
Delusional.
*barf*
the answer is that the person is a man. his appearance and social mannerisms are irrelevant. he is a man.
your definitions are wrong too. a man is "an adult male human being". a woman is "an adult female human being". the definitions are driven by biology, which cannot change.
The terms “male” and “female” historically refer only to biological sex, no matter what “mannerisms” you displayed. The terms had a secondary meaning in grammatical gender.
Using these terms to categorize human beings based on “mannerisms” is a 20th century invention of neo-Marxists; a deliberate equivocation using the terms “male” and “female”.
A male dressing as a female and taking female sex hormones is still a male. He may even be able to fool some people, but that doesn’t change what he actually is. Out of politeness, we may humor such a male and refer to him by his preferred pronoun, but that still doesn’t change what he actually is.
"a biological male who displays the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of women"
a mentally ill man?
Dick Durbin's senate page, statement on abortion:
Putting aside "pregnant person" to we don't go down the rabbit hole of Democrat derangement... here's Dick Durbin in 1984:
I have studied the issue in depth and favor the Eagleton Amendment which states clearly that the right to abortion is not guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. The effect of this Amendment will be to return us to the legal environment which existed before Roe v. Wade in 1973. States would be allowed to regulate the practice of abortion under their power to legislate in areas of health and safety.
So as you can see, it is very clear that Mr. Durbin has changed his view on what a woman is.
1984 was a decade after Roe.
he had time to think it over.
I wonder what changed his mind. Did he have an underage teen daughter who was knocked up by the "wrong" kind of boy?
Dnc has been kicking out its pro life members for decades. Think they have one left.
Running for Senate. He was completely prolife when he was a rep.
no he didn't change his mind. his public views are all political. he stands for nothing, just like brandon. his views are nothing more than those that benefit him. people who actually have principles and morals don't change, they stick to the truth.
Since when is fear of your child being kidnapped a thing on "the American right?"
This is a broad based misconception and defies political lines. LOTS of dumb fucking parents think children getting kidnapped by strangers is a thing -- it isn't, the vast majority of actual abductions being relatives, usually an estranged family member like a non-custodial parent after a divorce -- and I somehow don't see the free-range parents allowing their kids to play unsupervised being progressives.
Fuck man, if you're going to somehow divide the country entirely on political lines for your both sides bullshit, actually pick something plausibly real. This is fucking nonsense.
there are definitely better examples... China, immigrants, men sitting down to pee........
I have a nicely padded toilet seat which won't stay up on its own and I don't want to hold it up while trying to wrangle my dangle, if you know what I mean.
Prejudice is prejudice, asshole.
Toilet seats that won't stay up are white supremacy.
Toilet seats that do stay up are Male supremacy.
At least according to 90s brick wall standup, which is pretty much my entire understanding of women.
If you want padding but also want it to stay up, loosen the screws holding the seat and lid, adjust the seat forward and the lid back, then re-tighten the screws. It's a toilet not rocket surgery.
I know a German who thinks it’s weird that American men stand to pee in their own homes. Makes sense from a sanitary position to pee standing up in a public restroom (those poor ladies), but sitting to pee is the luxury of being in your own abode.
Get your balls out of your old ladies purse.
So your strawman of conservative beliefs is your proof?
Anti market actions by China, illegal immigration, biology.
Good counter points dummy.
Bonnie, reality just is.
There are NOT two (or more) realities.
Perhaps you could do this article over, but use the stated principles in the political party platforms to reflect on the different societies that would result from their implementation.
(hint: we have an 18 month experiment in process for one of them; no supposition required)
Sure there is one reality (presumably). The problem is that no one has anywhere remotely close to complete knowledge of reality or truth.
While I will say it is obvious that many people are full of shit, I don't think it's obvious that anyone really has a good grasp of reality as a whole (myself included).
That doesn't mean the left is any less psychotic, nor is it an acceptable excuse to pretend they aren't.
I only make a general comment on epistemology.
my reality is entirely more real than yours.
Bonnie, reality just is.
This is what you get from a generation that has demonized Objectivism.
Yes. It is white supremacy.
The non absolutes know no other way.
The COVID-19 pandemic instantly comes to mind...It's too soon to say with confidence, but for now, it looks like irrational risk assessments have not won the day to set the policy agenda in the long term.
Government agents, with the full support and advocacy of liberals, lit the economy on fire and bulldozed it off a cliff just for good measure. Productive Americans will be paying the price for decades. Irrational risk assessment won the only day that matters and the costs will be with us in the long term.
It was the Trump administration and a Republican Congress during the early days of the pandemic. The lockdowns started under the GOP's watch, so I'm not sure why it's the liberals' fault. Unless Republicans are liberals.
Your statement isn't accurate. Individual states were the ones who began any lockdowns at the beginning of the pandemic, and states that were run by Democrats had heavier and stricter lockdowns than those run by Republicans.
You are overstating Trump and the GOP's role at this. That's dishonest.
The only way that it was "the liberals" that "lit the economy on fire and bulldozed it off a cliff just for good measure" and at the same time wasn't the Republican federal government's shared responsibility is if the American economy is under the sole control of liberal states. That doesn't compute.
Who was controlling the federal government as of January 21, 2021?
As a gay man, being in the way of a mass shooting has crossed my mind. After the Pulse attack, the recent Coeur d'Alene incident, and the total freakout about "grooming" and drag queens (especially here in Arizona, thanks to Kari Lake), the thought of going to a large open-air Pride Festival bothers me - especially since the activists on the left have been banning cops from Pride fests because of the cops' past history of brutality to our community. So, some right-wing whack-job shooter will have open season, because the left-wing whack-jobs have left us unprotected.
You should probably get the fuck out then
"As a gay man"
Are you a black republican too?
"Pink pistols" dude.... look it up!
You can concealed carry a 22 even while wearing assless chaps if that is your thing.
Pulse night club wasn't about being gay.
God damn. Falls for leftist lies and complains about it.
I loved the title of the piece; hopefully someone will actually write an interesting and cogent essay instead of this drivel. If you are afraid of being a victim of a mass shooting and it impacts your activities, you are not living in any reality and should seek professional help at once.
I'm actually working on an article that talks about this -- failure to agree on reality. Should be done tomorrow.
"Failure to agree on reality" is a better way of expressing it. There is only one reality, everything else is perception of reality. Saying people live in "different realities" is just a rephrase of the "lived experience" garbage.
Reality is reality. It's objectively true and proveable. Just because you believe something with all your heart doesn't make it true, and your "lived experience" isn't necessarily reality because it's tainted by perception and your own emotional response.
Very true. Just look at all the anti-abortionists that insist that the 27% chance that a fertilized egg becomes a human is actually a 100% chance (or, possibly, that the 27% chance makes it a human. It's not reality, so it doesn't make a lot of sense).
Or the fools who believe that deficit spending and printing money doesn't cause inflation.
Or the people who believe that supply-side economics works.
Or the people who think that immigrants are criminals.
Or the people who think that banning semi-automatic guns isn't banning all guns.
These and hundreds of other examples show that while reality is reality, a wedge issue with an angry, well-funded influence campaign can triumph.
In America, reality is what you can force everyone else to accept through the raw, naked application of financial and political power.
>>background fear every time I'm out in any kind of crowd
nobody's chances of dying in a hail of bullets when they assemble are even measurable ... stay inside if you are truly so fearful
"If it bleeds, it leads".
Simple enough.
Conservative Reality:
A Jew dead for 2000 years is coming back to sort the good folk out.
The Earth is 6000 years old and Gawd created folks like they is.
Worldwide inflation is caused by a pipeline that never existed.
Affirmative action is discrimination except for Clarence Thomas.
Donald Trump doesn't lie - everyone else does.
A free press is the enemy of the people.
Prog reality:
We can pay for health care for everyone if we just tax the 1% more.
The USA is the primary contributor to global climate change.
We can run our economy on green energy only.
(all above statements are false. But the level of self-deception is far greater among conservatives.)
I know any number of mainstream Christian progressives who fervently believe number one.
See, cons almost got this one correct:
Affirmative action is discrimination except for Clarence Thomas.
AA is in fact discrimination. But then they go fuck up with EXCEPT FOR CLARENCE THOMAS!
Mr. Thomas has one of the best legal minds in Muricah and is not an AA hire.
Dammit, we need economic updates.
But the level of self-deception is far greater among conservatives
"... because I made that list longer."
*barf*
You may add to the list.
Progs get a lot of shit wrong. A lot more than I had the patience to list.
Mostly, progs are clueless about how to pay for the shit they want.
Keeping the populace in a constant state of fear is a good way to keep the populace under control. If they get too complacent with regards to Covid-19, just start issuing "in case of a nuclear attack" recommendations on a regular basis.
You must be in NYC
Could be CA.
Did CA recently do a "in case of nuclear attack" PSA too?
The vast overwhelming majority of people in this country do NOT live in Lefty cultureland or Righty cultureland. They live in the vast middle. They might not go to the shooting range very weekend, but neither are they afraid to see a gun. And they might not be taking their kids to Drag Queen Story Hour, but neither are they deathly afraid that schools are grooming their progeny.
The vast middle isn't shitting their pants over the culture issue that top the headlines.
As a friend told me, who is a school psychologist between two districts, none of the shit the Right is shitting their pants over is happening in his districts. There's always someone somewhere doing something untoward, but acting like it's all a Democrat conspiracy to indoctrinate children on Anti-Whiteness or grooming them for service for Democrat congressmen is fucking nuts. And there's always someone somewhere doing something untoward, but the idea that the Right is going to gun ranges with paper targets of children is fucking nuts and lobbying to ban triggerlocks is fucking nuts.
The vast middle isn't shitting its pants over the stuff you guys are.
Brandybuck says, as he/him imagines racism and homophobia as the causes of all things...
No one who is pushing these things is actually shitting their pants over them. They have just followed their own transactional-based self-interest to a place where they personally benefit from claiming the problems facing the country are because of "the other guys" and that we need to get angry and fight for [insert wedge issue of the moment here] by sending them money.
I am always amazed at how many people get totally freaked out by incredibly rare events to the point they change their way of life to avoid them. They invariably think the occur much, much more often than they do. COVID is a prime example. Liberals were asked what are the odds of dying if hospitalized with COVID. The majority thought it was around a 40%. Conservatives, to their credit, said it was around 5%. The truth is less than 1%. Yet how many people have completely restructured their lives to avoid COVID?
"The Left and Right Are Living in Different Realities"
And this is precisely why overturning Roe was the absolutely correct decision. And that example should follow for any attempted overreach that is federal, that is to be applied to the entire population.
We are a nation of 50 states, with a people that have vastly different ideologies. We are not a small homogenous population, we are the opposite. And the federalist system is set up for exactly such a population (despite the population not starting that way...it happens to be the best idea for our population...in theory). Let the states have different laws and people can vote with their feet.
Because the opposite...rule by executive fiat or federal govt top down policies that are to be applied to the whole country...is not going to work in this country. The best we can hope for is the fed to move out of the way and leave states alone. And if its something really important and widely agreed upon, propose a constitutional amendment.
The problem is we have one side that demands everyone live the way they want, and another side that wants to pretty much be left alone. We have one side who think it isnt enough that THEY lock down, get 4x vaxxed, and wear 2 masks...YOU have to lock down and miss work too. And wear the mask. And mask your kid. And get the jab. And celebrate trans kids mutilating zeirselves. This situation is not sustainable and will end in violence at some point.
You said:
"And this is precisely why overturning Roe was the absolutely correct decision." and "The problem is we have one side that demands everyone live the way they want, and another side that wants to pretty much be left alone."
Those two are mutually exclusive. If you wanted government to let people "pretty much be left alone", you wouldn't support the right to choose being taken away from the individual and given to the government.
The fact that it is a state government "demand[ing] everyone live the way they want" doesn't make it right. This isn't a federal vs. state issue. It is an individual vs. government issue and you are on the side of government.
Federalism isn't virtuous. States and the Federal government both make bad decisions. The idea that it's OK if a state coerces its citizens is nonsense.
The only thing that will cause violence is if cultural conservatives see their outdated values continuing to diminish and they decide they've reached a tipping point.
Before I die most of the moralistic values of the mid-20th century will have been completely rejected. Which is how healthy societies evolve and prosper. If cultural conservatives accept it, we'll be fine. If not, we'll still be fine. No one is going to start another civil war over CRT or abortion.
The religious and social values of the 1950s are in their sunset years. Most people will accept it.
nelson provided all the evidence we need to show that we're really two countries. we need to split as the two sides cannot live together and i really have no desire to live with the left.
We can definitely live together, assuming you can accept that people have differing values and should be free to live them, assuming the NAP.
If you can't do a simple thing like live and let live, you should go somewhere that supports your authoritarian instincts. That place isn't America.
The onus isn't on the vast majority people to accept and accede to the lunacy of the fringes.
you don't understand the left at all. these people hate the country and want to destroy it. in fact they're actively doing so now. there is no way i can or will live with people like that. they are the enemy and get no quarter.
No they don't. Any more than Second Amendment advocates want dead children. The lunatic fringes are the only ones that try to claim those things and they aren't wprth listening to.
If you really think killing people you don't agree with is justified, you are a psychopath.
why are you putting words in my mouth? i never said anything about killing anyone.
^Pro-Life B.S. Propaganda there....
The U.S. Constitution isn't "federal over-reach" sh*thead.
The trans thing is the one that baffles me the most. There are multiple aspects to gender, yet conservatives want to cram them all together into a binary choice.
Genetically there are two genders, XX and XY. We use the terms male/female (or woman/man, if you prefer), but no one disputes that there are only those two, genetically.
Internally (or reproductively, if you prefer) there are people with ovaries and people without ovaries. People with ovaries can carry babies, people without ovaries cannot. Although future scientific advances may change this, presently no one disputes this.
Externally there are people with some combination of a penis, a vagina, and breasts. Due to modern plastic surgery, each person can have any combination of those things that they choose. It is unconnected to their genetics or their internal physiology. Nor is it necessarily connected to their gender.
Socially there are people who present themselves as male or female. They do this by using various social cues. This is unconnected to their genetics, internal physiology, or external physiology.
If there is a person with ovaries, no breasts, and a penis who chooses to be inseminated and carry a baby while sporting a beard, what would you call them? Male or female? Man or woman?
If there is a person with no ovaries, a penis, and breasts who says they're a woman and wants to marry a person with no ovaries and a penis who says they're a man, is that a homosexual wedding?
If there is a person with ovaries, a vagina, and breasts who straps down their breasts and dresses like and says they're a man, how would you know? And why do you care?
It isn't as simple as cultural conservatives pretend, but that's typical. Cultural conservatism requires simplicity. And not in a good way.
If there is a person with ovaries, a vagina, and breasts who straps down their breasts and dresses like and says they're a man, how would you know? And why do you care?
I know, right? This is a question I asked earlier, no one yet has been able to offer a satisfactory answer:
Let us assume for the purpose of this discussion, as many social conservatives do, that there is no difference between sex and gender. So, then everyone is either a man or a woman based on their biological sex.
So, suppose you are at a party where you observe the person described above, who has the appearance and social mannerisms characteristic of a man. So, mentally, you assign a gender to this person of "man", because this person appears to fit all the criteria for being a man. Later, however, it is revealed to you that this person is actually a biological female. So, according to the assumption above, this person actually has a gender of "woman". Therefore, when you mentally assigned a gender of "man" to this person above, you were in error. What additional observations could you have made, when first meeting this person and making the mental assignment of gender, that would be appropriate for a social setting (i.e. no unwanted grabbing of crotches), that would have permitted you to mentally assign the correct gender in the first place?
I'm not looking to go that far into the weeds. I was just identifying the different elements of gender (genetic, internal physiology, external physiology, and social presentation) and looking for an explanation, preferably from one of the more vocal members of these comments, as to how they would view (or redefine) the various elements of gender.
I'm not an extremist on trans issues. I adamantly oppose athletic competition by trans women who transitioned after puberty. I think pre-pubescent transitioning is a terrible idea, but in a disagreement between the opinion of the people involved (with their doctors) and my uninformed opinion, I lose. I'm baffled by the various gender identities that people claim, but it doesn't impact me so I don't particularly care. Identify as whatever you want, it makes bo difference in my life.
Basically, I don't think gender identity and transitioning decisions are anyone else's concern but those involved. Especially not the government's. But that's not the point of my post.
The point was to find out how people who are angry about trans issues view the various aspects of gender. There is a chance that they are just virulent partisans or Internet Research Agency/Fifty Cent trolls, but I prefer to start from the assumption that even extreme beliefs have a basis (rational or otherwise). So I'm asking for an explanation.
Sounds like you and I are roughly in the same spot on it - I have an extended answer to Jeff above attempting just this, as it's something I've been thinking about a fair amount, too.
The answer is simple: “gender” is a 20th century invention, an ill-defined term that encompasses various social conventions, ideas, behaviors, etc. The term “gender” was borrowed from grammar.
Confusing arises because people use “male/female” to refer to both gender and sex. Biologically, medically, and legally, the concept that matters is sex. Sex is well-defined and determined by chromosomes. You cannot alter it with drugs or surgery.
This is a question I asked earlier, no one yet has been able to offer a satisfactory answer:
Because everyone finds your dumb hypotheticals to be little more than mental masturbation.
Well, it’s no “bears in trunks”, to be sure.
Such a situation could only come about as the result of a very unusual birth defect. Most likely, the person’s sex would be female.
Objectively, such a person is of the male sex.
Biologically, it would be a homosexual relationship between two males.
Biologically, we don’t ask whether two male penguins hold a sincere belief that one of them is female in order to categorize the relationship as homosexual either.
How you want to treat that culturally, socially, or legally, is another question. But culture, social convention, and the law does not change biological reality.
"Such a situation could only come about as the result of a very unusual birth defect."
Or plastic surgery, as I made clear in my post.
"Objectively, such a person is of the male sex."
No, genetically they are male. Objectively, they have both male and female elements. But how would you know? If they say they're a woman, have breasts, and provide female social cues, aren't they effectively a woman? Unless you want to check everyone's genitals?
Basically, from your answers, it seems like the only aspect of gender that you accept is genetic. The other 3 elements I mentioned have no bearing, from your perspective? Gender is sex is chromosomes?
You keep confusing sex and gender.
Sex is chromosomes. Gender is a modern invention and has about the same significance as someone’s hair style.
No. And this stupidity pisses me off. Thank god I married 13 years ago.
This is why it matters. A woman wants to marry and have children. A man wants to marry and have children. I anticipate a slew of objections to this simple and biological desire on the part of normal, functioning people that inhabit Brandbuck’s “great middle”.
The social conventions of appearance allow a woman to find a man without having to resort to awkward first date material such as “are you a man?” But now, such questions are transphobic. Every normal human in the “great middle” is willing to risk potential fertility issues, but they largely want to be with their biological complement so as to reproduce.
The more we erase the outward distinctions, the harder it is to self-sort into biologically reproductive couplings. The more we promote sterilizing procedures, the harder that will be. The social contagion and sky rocketing incidence of it among kids, especially paired with the surgical and sterilizing aspects of it increases those difficulties while also wrecking their own chances for a biologically reproductive coupling if they want one as adults.
What I cannot understand is how anyone could think this is ok. Society can tolerate a handful of misfits on the fringes of society, but the trans stuff is trying to be mainstreamed.
"And this stupidity pisses me off."
Why? What difference does it make in your life?
"A woman wants to marry and have children. A man wants to marry and have children"
The desire to reproduce is evolutionary and biological. Sometimes attraction to the same sex happens. It's natural, as are all mutations. Some advantageous, some not.
The desire to have children is separate from the desire to reproduce.
Marriage is a completely social construction and isn't a biological urge at all.
"The social conventions of appearance allow a woman to find a man without having to resort to awkward first date material such as “are you a man?”"
Your worries about the potential embarassment of people you don't know is bizarre? Why don't you just assume people can navigate their own dating life without your help.
"The more we erase the outward distinctions, the harder it is to self-sort into biologically reproductive couplings."
Yet somehow people manage. It's almost like there are social conventions that you aren't familiar with that allow for this. Can you believe people can solve problems without rigid social norms? It's almost like they aren't stupid.
"The social contagion and sky rocketing incidence of it among kids, especially paired with the surgical and sterilizing aspects of it increases those difficulties while also wrecking their own chances for a biologically reproductive coupling if they want one as adults."
Apparently you don't know that surgical transitions in children is almost non-existent. And apparently your uninformed opinion should dictate the medical decisions of others because ... you're angry? I'm not sure why.
"What I cannot understand is how anyone could think this is ok."
You seem to be confusing the belief that it's OK with the belief that it's none of your business. Personally I think it's baffling and weird, but it isn't my life so my opinion is irrelevant.
"the trans stuff is trying to be mainstreamed"
Am I right in assuming that you believe discussions of things like trans and homosexual issues is the same as condoning them? And, probably, tbat it is grooming children for sexual abuse?
You wanted to hear rationale. I gave it to you. I think your ideas of what are “ok” result in dead ends and destruction. Nothing can come from it. It isn’t creative or producing of life.
Part of MY reproducing is raising kids who will also, one day, reproduce. The reason it matters to me is what is being socially accepted harms my children’s chances of one day being able to find reproductive couplings.
I’m not a sterilized dead end. My family possesses a future and we are going to fight for it for their sakes and their own children’s sakes. Protecting kids from this madness is a hill worth dying on.
You are a leftist idiot that denies biology and gussies it up as reasonable. You aren’t.
"Nothing can come from it. It isn’t creative or producing of life."
OK, I'll ask a different way. What justifies your opinion being forced on others?
"The reason it matters to me is what is being socially accepted harms my children’s chances of one day being able to find reproductive couplings."
I'm going to assume they aren't too stupid to figure it out. It's not hard. Only date people who are what you are looking for. I wouldn't date a gay man because I'm not gay. That's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just my preference. And it's not hard to determine. Figuring out which heterosexual woman I wanted to date was harder, back when I wasn't in a 20+ year relationship.
"My family possesses a future and we are going to fight for it for their sakes and their own children’s sakes."
You don't have to fight for anything. Trans people don't impact your life unless you want them to. Google "moral panic" to understand your situation better.
"Protecting kids from this madness is a hill worth dying on."
You aren't protecting anyone from anything. You can't. Because you can't stop people from doing what they choose. Nor should you. Other people's personal decisions, right or wrong, aren't yours to judge or forbid.
People are free to choose for themselves. Your displeasure is irrelevant legally, morally, and practically.
For the record, I have repeatedly said that genetically there are XX and XY people, which we call female and male. Gender isn't limited to generics.
Good god, it’s because of callous and willfully ignorant people like you, Nelson, that we have so much drug addiction, disease, and poverty in the US. Not only do you keep denying the consequences of the policies, you actively want to subsidize them, thereby removing any constraints or price signals that might alert people to the fact that they are making bad choices.
You really are a vile human being, Nelson, and you dress up your evil belief system in an air of sanctimonious self-righteousness and fake tolerance.
"Good god, it’s because of callous and willfully ignorant people like you, Nelson, that we have so much drug addiction, disease, and poverty in the US."
It's because of self-righteous, blind traditionalists that we can't actually identify root causes of our social problems. When you start from the assumption that abandoning traditinal values causes evil in the world, you can't accept anything else. And abandoning traditional values doesn't result in evil.
And what policies cause "drug addiction, disease, and poverty"? Letting people make their own decisions? Really?
"Not only do you keep denying the consequences of the policies, you actively want to subsidize them,"
I don't know which policies you are talking about, but there are a lot of causes of the three things you mentioned. Pretending that government policy caused them is fantasy.
I have never advocated subsidizing anything in this discussion. Being OK with people using health insurance they paid for isn't advocating for subsidization.
"alert people to the fact that they are making bad choices."
Making bad choices according to you. And you want to create government policies that punish those choices. Authoritarian much?
"You really are a vile human being, Nelson, and you dress up your evil belief system in an air of sanctimonious self-righteousness and fake tolerance."
What is vile about me? What is evil about my belief system? I support individual liberty. I support capitalism (for example, purchasing and using health insurance according to its terms).
Someone who believes that traditional values should be forced on people through job discrimination, supports legislation interfering with contractual agreements, and that there is a "right" and "wrong" way for people to live when it doesn't hurt anyone else shoild look on the mirror before accusing anyone else of "sanctimonious self-righteousness".
Finally, calling an attitude of live and let live "fake tolerance" is laughable. The most basic definition of tolerance is to leave people alone even if you disapprove of their choices. You should try it.
You do no such thing. You defend a system that expropriates the top 20% to subsidize obesity, drug addiction, bad financial choices, bad educational choices, castration and mutilations, etc. And the result is that millions of Americans live in misery and poverty (the recipients of the subsidies, not the people paying for it).
That is neither “liberty” nor “capitalism”, it is authoritarian and socialist. And there is nothing mysterious about the consequences: they are the same that always happens when government adopts such policies.
Really? Where have I suggested any “punishment” for any choices?
I want a free market in health care and actual health insurance. I want companies and workers to be able to find each other in a free market, rather than being forced into contracts one side or the other does not want.
You oppose all of that.
I explained that above: people like you, with your willful ignorance and pretend-tolerance, are the cause of the suffering of millions in the US and most of the social problems and poverty in the US.
What is also vile about you is that you put words into people’s mouths and falsely attribute beliefs and views to them they clearly don’t hold, even after repeatedly telling you so.
"You defend a system that expropriates the top 20% to subsidize ..."
Never have, never will. But if you buy insurance, you get to use it. I
know the idea of purchasing a product that you desire at a price the market sets is something you oppose, but that's capitalism. Even if you don't like the product.
You don't get to interfere with a legal contract between two parties unless you arenone of them. No matter how superior you think you are.
"Really? Where have I suggested any “punishment” for any choices?"
You said people shouldn't get jobs if they choose to transition. What would you call allowing discrimination against someone to prevent them from making a living? Helping them?
"rather than being forced into contracts one side or the other does not want."
There is a difference between a completely unregulated market and a free market. No one thinks that markets don't require rules. And why would you think that the insurance companies don't want to offer what they do? You are making the biased assumption that everyone agrees with you and don't want to offer the products they do. It's a bad, unsupported assumption.
"You oppose all of that."
I have always supported free markets with minimal regulation. I have never opposed that in any way, shape, or form. I retired at 45 because I built a successful business that was desirable enough to others that they paid me a crapload of money for my ownership stake. I am an entrepreneur and a free market capitalist. Not just in my words, but in my life.
"I explained that above: people like you, with your willful ignorance and pretend-tolerance, are the cause of the suffering of millions in the US and most of the social problems and poverty in the US."
As I pointed out above, I am neither ignorant nor "pretend-tolerant". Pretend tolerance is saying that you don't care what other people choose to do, but then say people should be discriminated against. Specifically that they shouldn't be hired because they are trans. You clearly don't understand what tolerance means.
"are the cause of the suffering of millions in the US and most of the social problems and poverty in the US."
Again with the moral panic? Trans people aren't a threat, let alone an existential threat that endangers the entire social fabric of America and the future of the human race.
A moral panic is a widespread feeling of fear, often an irrational one, that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society.
This is what moral panic is. This is who you are, Chicken Little.
The price of “health insurance” in the US is not “set by the market”; the ACA and other regulations legally prohibit that. You have to be completely unfamiliar with the US healthcare system if you think it is a free market system or is based on voluntary transactions.
I said nothing about “should”. I said that in a free market, they would not get insurance. You know, free market and all that.
Because the architects of the ACA. The ACA was explicitly designed to make low-risk individuals pay for high risk individuals.
You weren’t able to retire at 45 because of your brilliant success in a free market economy, you were able to retire at 45 because the US government injected massive amounts of money into the economy for decades, a policy that benefits a small elite of educated and well-connected people, in addition to subsidizing healthcare, retirement, and other benefits. And that is why you like crony capitalism and authoritarian policies. Unfortunately, that is also why the country is falling apart, why we have record inflation, and massive increases in inequality.
I never said that trans people are a threat. I said that you are a threat to trans people, because the policies you defend hurt trans people. And they hurt gay people, immigrants, minorities, etc. They hurt people like me.
The threat to the US, to minorities, is greedy, selfish people like you, people who push for government regulations and policies that make you wealthy while the rest of the country can eat shit. That is you. And your life story finally puts all of that into focus and why you don’t give a f*ck about hurting people, and don’t even understand how you are doing it.
This is a question I asked earlier, no one yet has been able to offer a satisfactory answer:
That is because you are not interested in honest discourse.
If there is a person with ovaries, a vagina, and breasts who straps down their breasts and dresses like and says they're a man, how would you know? And why do you care?
Except that is not a remotely realistic scenario. Realistic would be that your nephew, Charles, is now wanting to be called 'Charlene' and you are told by his mother that you have to refer to him as your niece. And that even though you know that the kid was neglected and abused by his drug-addled parents and probably just acting out to get attention, you have to go along with his fantasy or be ostracized as a transphobic bigot.
You can refer to him however you want, but I know that Bruce Jenner won the decathlon at the '76 Olympics. He was on my fucking Wheaties box. Nobody gets to change history.
Saying that a "realitstic" scenario presupposes neglect and abuse of a child and drug addiction by both parents, with an assumption of dishonesty by the child thrown in for good measure, illustrates how out of touch with reality you are on this subject.
I'm not a sanctimonious douchebag so I refer to people the way they ask me to, trans or not. You have clearly chosen a different path.
If there is a person with ovaries, no breasts, and a penis who chooses to be inseminated and carry a baby while sporting a beard, what would you call them? Male or female? Man or woman?
Non-existent, because no ovaries = no babies. But an ovary-having person who also has a penis and bears a child? Trans.
If there is a person with no ovaries, a penis, and breasts who says they're a woman and wants to marry a person with no ovaries and a penis who says they're a man, is that a homosexual wedding?
Yes, but there's no reason that should matter.
If there is a person with ovaries, a vagina, and breasts who straps down their breasts and dresses like and says they're a man, how would you know?
Maybe you wouldn't.
And why do you care?
That depends. Are we making small talk about work and such, or am I a straight woman looking to get laid tonight?
If the latter, I might care. Just sayin'.
"Non-existent, because no ovaries = no babies"
Read closer. Ovaries, no breasts, and a penis. So capable of carrying a baby.
"Yes, but there's no reason that should matter."
Agreed.
"That depends. Are we making small talk about work and such, or am I a straight woman looking to get laid tonight?
If the latter, I might care. Just sayin'."
Touche! Point to you! LOL!
If a human being has functioning ovaries, they are female.
Their “penis” is either a roughly surgical simulation of a penis or an abnormal overgrowth of the clitoris, not an actual penis.
I appreciate you answering my questions honestly. That said, gender is more nuanced than just chromosomes.
Just considering intersex people, whose chromosomes and unaltered physiology may be at odds, illustrates that it's not a black-and-white issue.
That leaves aside the social courtesies (or lack thereof) involved in publicly disputing someone's gender. Especially if you're wrong and they are just a very effeminate heterosexual man or a very masculine heterosexual woman.
Even if you're right, you look like a sanctimonious jerk if you insist on misgendering them.
But I'm most interested in why you care what someone else chooses for themselves. What is wrong with live and let live?
I don’t care what someone “chooses for themselves” or how they dress up. And in social situations, I am polite and refer to people by their chosen pronouns.
But none of that changes the biological reality: you cannot change someone’s sex.
You can change someone’s “gender”, but gender is a pointless 20th century invention of social scientists, borrowed from linguistics. “Gender” is biologically and medically meaningless.
"I don’t care what someone “chooses for themselves” or how they dress up. And in social situations, I am polite and refer to people by their chosen pronouns."
That's exactly as it should be. There are those who believe that refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns is some sort of collasal imposition on them and that the response they get when they refuse is infringing their First Amendment rights or something. Like social repercussions of boorish behavior is somehow unjustified or actions having consequences is unreasonable.
It's good to hear from someone who is conservative on trans issues yet respects the autonomy of others.
"But none of that changes the biological reality: you cannot change someone’s sex."
Agreed. I don't know anyone who thinks that there is any way to change their chromosomes.
"“Gender” is biologically and medically meaningless."
True, but it is socially and culturally relevant. It may seem a pointless construct to you, but that's not where things are headed these days.
Yes, and things are also headed towards a demographic collapse. That’s the consequence of the cultural and social choices we are making. People need to understand that before they make those choices.
It is absurd that progressives simultaneously worry about sustainability and climate change while at the same time embracing policies that will lead to the inevitable extinction of any society that embraces those policies.
"Yes, and things are also headed towards a demographic collapse."
I stopped believing in Malthusian crises back in high school. I'm not sure what demographics have you so concerned, but at the present rate your grandchildren's grandchildren won't face an America without Americans.
"People need to understand that before they make those choices."
No one makes personal decisions based on what might, possibly happen in another 100+ years. Nor should they.
“Malthusian crises” refers to running out of resources. We are facing the opposite problem.
It’s correct that we “won’t face an America without Americans”, for the simple reason that the US will be taken over by people who don’t give a fuck about the self-destructive ideology that you are promoting. Unfortunately, liberalism seems to bear the seeds of its own destruction.
You are wrong, however, that “nobody makes person decisions of what might happen in 100+ years”. Parents care about their children and grandchildren. People are genuinely concerned about climate change.
Most importantly, there is an inherent contradiction in progressivism in advocating supposedly sustainable environmental policies while clearly advocating unsustainable family structures.
I used Malthusian crises as a less dickish way of saying Chicken Little. The sky isn't falling.
"Parents care about their children and grandchildren."
But the eventuality you are handwringing about isn't about your children or grandchildren. Given the trend in birthrates, your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren (yes, 6 generations) might, possibly have to worry if there are absolutely changes in the next 150 years or so. How realistic do you think that really is?
That's the other reason I referenced Malthus. He started with the assumption that everything in the future would be exactly the same. As history has shown, that's never the case.
"while clearly advocating unsustainable family structures."
What exactly is an "unsustainable family structure"? Because if it is about the replacement birth rate, you should be more angry at childless people than trans people. They are a much larger factor in the falling birthrate than the miniscule number of people who are trans.
I’m not “angry” at either trans people or childless people. Nor am I concerned about whether the US will spiral down the drain in a century.
What I am trying to explain to you is that what you seem to view as a natural liberal evolution of society is nothing of the sort: what you think of as tolerance and control over their own bodies for trans people (or women or whatever) is, in reality, the expropriation of productive members of society for the purpose of subsidizing a lifestyle that almost nobody could choose without such subsidies.
"What I am trying to explain to you is that what you seem to view as a natural liberal evolution of society"
I don't think that there is any specific ideology that society evolves towards. The culture that is evolved away from is, by definition, conservative. If you wish to "save" the culture of the past, you are trying to "conserve" it. The new socital norms aren't necessarily liberal, they are just different than those of the past. I don't think that liberal is better than conservative, I think that trying to elevate the culture of the past to some sort of ideal is foolish at best and wrong at worst. Culture should change and evolve, not stagnate.
I've said many times that I don't get the whole gender and pronoun thing. There seem to be about a thousand different combinations and the differences seem to be so slight as to be indistinguishable. At least to me. But I don't need to understand it. I am a heterosexual white man who uses he/him pronouns. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing.
But the same goes for the other 999 gender/pronoun combinations. If someone wants me to call them a woman and use they/them pronouns, in my head I roll my eyes. Then I refer to them the way they asked.
I don't place a value judgement on someone else's personality quirks. I don't think being trans is bad or good. It just is.
It's clear that you think it is bad. Very bad. And you make accusations of irresponsible sexual practices, drug use, destitution, government aid, and the survival of humanity to try to make them seem bad. But none of those things are specific to trans people. Nor do you oppose some of them (like government subsidies), since you take them yourself.
I mean, come on. Your last paragraph basically says that trans people couldn't possibly be productive enough memebers of society to pay for their own treatment. And your "proof" is that they use insurance, which costs everyone else. Yet no other use of insurance gains your approbation. You're literally saying "every frivolous use of insurance is OK except for transition surgery".
I don’t want to “save” any culture. I am simply pointing out the ignorance and denial that comes through in your arguments and way of thinking.
Well, and that’s the problem: you really understand next to nothing about how society operates.
I don’t judge people for being transgender or gay or straight or single mothers. I simply don’t want the cost of people’s lifestyle choices to be socialized. That’s not because I am some moralizing conservative, it is because socializing these costs hurts the very people it is supposed to help.
That is bullshit. I have been crystal clear that I oppose all government subsidies.
Really? Pray tell, what “government subsidies” have I taken in my life?
No, I didn’t say “couldn’t possibly”, I explicitly said “most”. Obviously, Michael Jordan’s son and Bill Gates’ daughter have the resources to pay for any surgery they like.
Again, you are lying. I explicitly, clearly stated that the problem is that our healthcare system and social welfare system is used to socialize the cost of all bad lifestyle choices: obesity, STIs, transgenderism, single parenthood, etc. I clearly stated that health insurance companies need to be private entities that write policies based on actual risk, instead of the socialist redistribution program that they are.
I’m not angry at transgender people, or at HIV infected people, or at drug addicts. I am angry at people like you, who through your callousness and ignorance condemn millions of Americans to a life of poverty and suffering. They are not evil, you are.
"the ignorance and denial that comes through in your arguments and way of thinking."
What ignorance and denial? You throw out a lot of unsubstantiated and irrational accusations, but you are short on support other than "it's wrong and evil and you aren't against it".
"you really understand next to nothing about how society operates."
And you are an all-knowing sage about how society functions? Since I have been successful at pretty much every phase of my life and I did it without pretending that I am better and more virtuous than anyone else, I think I have a solid grasp on how society operates.
"I have been crystal clear that I oppose all government subsidies."
"Really? Pray tell, what “government subsidies” have I taken in my life?"
You have kids? You took the tax breaks provided by the government? Congratulations! You have taken subsidies from the government, funded by every taxpayer in America.
"No, I didn’t say “couldn’t possibly”, I explicitly said “most”."
Really? Show me something other than conservative rhetoric that shows that most people who transition use subsidies. Like homosexuals, transgender people are more likely to be affluent. Is that because they have health insurance to cover the costs? Probably. But they aren't the freeloaders you want to paint them as.
"all bad lifestyle choices: obesity, STIs, transgenderism, single parenthood, etc."
So only the virtuous (defined by you) deserve to access the benefits they paid for? Only skinny virgins (because that's the only way to be sure your partner doesn't have an STI) who get and remain married to the father/mother of their children and accept a rigid genetic definition of what they "should" be are worthy?
Good to know that anyone who makes a mistake or a bad decision in life is banished from decent society, in your ideal world. That doesn't sound self-righteous, moralistic, and rigid at all.
"health insurance companies need to be private entities that write policies based on actual risk, instead of the socialist redistribution program that they are."
A socialist redistribution program ... for profit? I don't think you understand the difference between capitalism and socialism. It's like you have a set of stock accusations that you attach to anything you disapprove of. Pro tip: for-profit companies competing in a market aren't socialists.
"I am angry at people like you, who through your callousness and ignorance"
I am callous because I think people should make their own decisions and ignorant because I reject self-important traditionalist propaganda? Inigo Montoya has a phrase for that.
'condemn millions of Americans to a life of poverty and suffering. They are not evil, you are."
Jesus, drama queen. How hysterical are you? Not only is the effect you identify unconnected to the causes you claim, this isn't an existential threat. You are Chicken Little. A living embodiment of moral panic.
"A moral panic is a widespread feeling of fear, often an irrational one, that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society."
This is who you are.
Whether you receive subsidies or contribute to the economy is determined by the net balance of how much you pay in taxes vs how much the government spends on your behalf. Generally, unless you are in the top 20% of income earners, you receive government subsidies.
As for me, I’m a gay man, I don’t have kids and I don’t receive tax breaks for anything.
That’s a common prejudice among ignorant heterosexuals like you.
They didn’t pay for “their benefits”. They paid premiums that were completely disconnected from their actual risk.
And the main problem with that isn’t so much that it is bankrupting the nation (it is doing that too), but that people simply don’t receive any price signals.
As an immigrant who experienced both first hand, I understand the difference between socialism and capitalism very well.
Of course, widespread poverty, crime, and drug addiction aren’t “existential threats”. I never claimed they were.
I’m simply observing that ignorant, greedy people like you bear the responsibility for turning the US into a shithole, all the while deluding yourself that you are tolerant and liberal.
"I don’t have kids"
Fair enough. I thought you had referenced children in past conversations. And I'm going to assume from your comments that you are in the top 20% of earners, since you believe 80% of Americans get subsidies from the government.
"That’s a common prejudice among ignorant heterosexuals like you."
Actually, it is a demographic reality. As barriers against gay adoption continue to fall and IVF allows lesbians (and gay men who make bithing agreements with them) to bear children, the percentage of DINKs will continue to fall in the gay community. That should bring them back towards the heterosexual average. Byt not for a while.
"They didn’t pay for “their benefits”."
There is no possible way you could prove such a broad overgeneralization.
"They paid premiums that were completely disconnected from their actual risk."
They paid the price that was set for the product they received from an insurance company that literally pays people to assess risk. The fact that you seem to think that the entire insurance industry and the entire underwriting profession is wrong and you are right is pure hubris.
And if they were assessing risk incorrectly, they would go out of business. The market doesn't care. If you price risk incorrectly, your business fails. It's called capitalism.
"Obviously not if you think a product sold by a for-profit company, purchased by a consumerfor the offered price, and utilized according to the terms and conditions to which both parties agreed isn't the definition of capitalism. That it is, in fact, socialism.
"Of course, widespread poverty, crime, and drug addiction aren’t “existential threats”. I never claimed they were."
Agreed. They also aren't caused by transsexuals.
"I’m simply observing that ignorant, greedy people like you bear the responsibility for turning the US into a shithole, all the while deluding yourself that you are tolerant and liberal."
What ignorance? What greed? The US isn't a shithole at all. But if you think it is, yiu are free to leave. This is a great country. It's not flawless, but we are willing to do the hard work of fixing our mistakes and care about striving for a "more perfect union".
I love my country. If you don't, please fuck off to somewhere you like better.
"all the while deluding yourself that you are tolerant and liberal."
While I am tolerant (a thing that, like the difference between capitalism and socialism, you don't seem to understand), I am not "liberal". In general I am center-left on social issues and center-right on fiscal issues, but I'm heterodox on both axes.
Unlike you, I don't think there should be negative consequences to personal choices that don't harm others.
Bullshit. You’re confusing a market segment (“affluent American gay couples”) with mainstream reality.
Were you asleep through the entire ACA discussions? The ACA was explicitly designed to force low-risk individuals to subsidize high-risk individuals.
No. They are caused by people like you, just like the misery and suffering that minorities experience is caused by people like you who favor the policies you favor.
What you love is decades upon decades of easy money and massive government handouts, policies that have made you (by your own description) spectacularly wealthy, but that have cause the working and middle classes to suffer. You love this country like the French aristocracy loved France under Louis XIV.
I used to love this country, when it was still a liberal, free-market oriented nation, before people like you corrupted it. And if the country doesn’t turn around, you’re right: I’ll get the hell out of here. I have seen one country destroyed by people like you, I don’t want to see this again.
Fortunately, there seem to be enough immigrants like me who recognize what you and people like you are, that we can perhaps still turn this around and put your beliefs into the dustbin of history, where they belong.
"Bullshit. You’re confusing a market segment (“affluent American gay couples”) with mainstream reality."
https://hbr.org/2017/12/gay-men-used-to-earn-less-than-straight-men-now-they-earn-more
And that's just income. With the historical discrimination against gays adopting, the wealth of gay couples (men more than women, due to the impact of completely different issues) is even more significant, due to the higher rate of DINK (dual income, no kids) households. Throw in the recent marriage benefits gays can now access and it's not surprising.
"Were you asleep through the entire ACA discussions? The ACA was explicitly designed to force low-risk individuals to subsidize high-risk individuals."
What you just described is called "the insurance industry". They have been doing it for hundreds of years, certainly long before the ACA (or America, for that matter). It isn't socialism, it's risk mitigatation.
"No. They are caused by people like you, just like the misery and suffering that minorities experience is caused by people like you who favor the policies you favor."
Again, which policies? You keep talking about the policies I support and the existential threat they pose to America and the human race, but you constantly fail to identify any of the things I supposedly support. What policies? And what do they result in?
"What you love is decades upon decades of easy money and massive government handouts, policies that have made you (by your own description) spectacularly wealthy"
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow your roll, Assumptionman. I grew up in a lower-middle-class family. My parents were a homemaker and a community college professor. After they divoced my mother became a stockbroker. She grew up in abject poverty with a single mother (my grandfather, a decorated WWII veteran, was killed by a drunk driver when she was a small child). I am not "fabulously wealthy". Through intelligence, risk-taking, sacrifice, and effort my partner and I built a successful business. Because I live a simple life, I figured out I could retire early and volunteer full-time for a Lab rescue, which is what I do now. I can live simply until I die (assuming I do it before I'm 95), but I am not wealthy. I didn't take "government handouts". I didn't get "easy money". I scrimped, saved, borrowed, and watched every penny for years to become successful. I earned everything I have. Fuck you.
So if you want to put some substance to your ad hominem attacks, identify the policies I support, the direct outcomes they result in, and the real-world alternatives. Otherwise, you are just a empty bag of wind, doomsaying and moralizing like a mad prophet in the desert.
The context there is “if you compare the earnings of two men with similar education profiles, years of experience, skills, and job responsibilities”. That says that gay computer programmers are now paid better than straight computer programmers, not that all gays are economically better off than all straights.
No, that is not how insurance works. Insurance replaces a large uncertain loss with a risk-based premium. Insurance does not force low-risk individuals to subsidize the premiums of high risk individuals. And that is not how “health insurance” has operated for centuries because otherwise the ACA wouldn’t have had to compel insurance companies to write these contracts and subsidize them. In fact, what is called “health insurance” in the US isn’t a form of insurance at all, but the designers of this broken system are lying about it because it gives such a corrupt system a veneer of free market legitimacy.
Good god, you really aren’t familiar with macroeconomics, are you? I’m talking about you personally receiving a handout, I’m talking about Keyenesianism and fed policy. These are policies that have benefited you, and me, and all US elites, at the expense of the lower and middle classes, and that are causing the US economy to go off the rails.
To put this in terms you maybe understand better: the US currently has about $1 million in debt and liabilities per tax payer. That fake money allows all Americans to live far beyond their means, but it particularly benefits businesses, investors, and the wealthy.
Look, you misunderstood the gay income statistics you quoted, you don’t understand how insurance works, and you think that “easy money” is a personal insult against you instead of a macroeconomic statement. The problem isn’t my evident disdain for your political positions, the problem is that you are simply unfamiliar with both economics and libertarianism and believe a lot of progressive lies about economics and liberty.
As for “ad hominems”, I am pushing back on your hateful and disgusting accusations against me, and your repeated attempts to attribute opinions to me that I have explicitly told you I don’t hold.
(Typo) I’m NOT talking about you personally receiving a handout, I’m talking about Keyenesianism and fed policy.
Let me add that I have benefitted massively from the same policies, probably more than you. But, unlike you, I don’t fool myself about where the money comes from.
Nelson, that’s a whole bunch of b.s.
Biologically, there are two sexes, male and female. It’s binary. There is a small number of people with chromosomal or anatomical abnormalities, but even those abnormalities are understood in relation to specifically male and female cell types and developmental pathways. Your biological sex is determined early in fetal development; nothing can change it later.
“Gender” is a 20th century social science construct. Conservatives aren’t trying to “cram” anything into gender, conservatives (and anybody with half a brain) simply doesn’t care about “gender” at all. Conservatives may be happy to cater to your delusion of being a woman out of politeness or because you are pulling it off, but that doesn’t change biological reality. No matter how many operations you have, no matter how many hormones you inject, if you were born (sexually) male, your body will remain (sexually) male until the day you die.
If they don't care, why are cultural conservatives making such an issue of it?
"Conservatives may be happy to cater to your delusion of being a woman out of politeness or because you are pulling it off, but that doesn’t change biological reality."
Leaving aside the loaded and condescending word "delusion", that is exactly what trans acceptance is. No one thinks that they are changing their genetics. No one thinks that by getting plastic surgery someone born male can suddenly carry a child. No one thinks that there is a fundemental change in their genetic code.
Cultural conservatives are not making an issue of someone’s “gender”, they are making an issue of the equivocation that leftists engage in when they use the terms “male”/“female” without qualification.
Legally, medically, and biologically, what matters is sex, not gender.
The women’s rights movement is about sex, not gender.
Women’s sports is about sex, not gender.
Pregnancy is about sex, not gender.
Men who choose their “gender identity” to be female are misappropriating an entire history, culture, and legal benefits that we reserve for the female sex; you don’t get to claim those benefits if you are of the female gender.
That was well stated.
"Cultural conservatives ... are making an issue of the equivocation that leftists engage in when they use the terms “male”/“female” without qualification."
I'm far from a cultural conservative and I agree. There is a difference between a trans woman and a woman or a tran man and a man. I don't think it is a big deal and a self-referential label would depend on whether or not the trans person feels safe or comfortable publicly discussing their gender, but I agree there is a difference.
"Legally, medically, and biologically, what matters is sex, not gender."
Agreed
"The women’s rights movement is about sex, not gender."
I would say that's a decision for the advocates involved and point out that a movement like women's rights (or pro-life or free speech or other broad issues) often includes groups with similar goals, but different focuses or beliefs. I am always suspicious of people saying what a movement should or shouldn't be, especially if they aren't part of it.
"Women’s sports is about sex, not gender."
I would disagree slightly in that I see the legacy advantages of males being manifested at puberty, not before. So a prepubescent transition to female doesn't appear to make a difference. But the science is young and things may change, but the bone and muscle density that provides a major advantage to post-pubescent trans women is irreversible and a competitive advantage that shouldn't be allowed.
"Pregnancy is about sex, not gender."
I would say that pregnancy is about reproductive ability. A woman who can't get pregnant or a woman who had a hysterectomy is still a woman. But everyone agrees that you have to have ovaries (or, I guess technically just a womb given IVF) to be pregnant.
"you don’t get to claim those benefits if you are of the female gender."
I agree that you don't get to claim legal protections. Other than that, I don't see a problem with cultural or social benefits. Those are all relative anyway.
No, it’s not, because we are talking about a historical fact: the women’s rights movement is (or rather was) about sex, not gender.
Women’s sports doesn’t exist in order to create a nice show for spectators, it exists in order to create certain opportunities for individuals of the female sex. Now, it’s questionable to me whether it should ever have been created (arguably, it’s largely a creation of government), but it certainly shouldn’t support individuals of the male sex who have always had those opportunities because of their sex.
Ah, and that’s the heart of the problem. Cultural and social benefits are not at all relative. Women in a society need to have more than about 2.1 children each on average for the society to survive. Biology and culture evolved to ensure that. And the structure of all long-lived societies reflects that, in the legal protections and obligations for each sex, and in the economic and social incentives and prohibitions for each sex.
A society in which large numbers of women choose traditionally male career paths, in which sex is decoupled from marriage and child bearing, in which the costs of child bearing are socialized, and in which men can evade the harsh costs and reality of maleness, simply won’t reach the threshold of 2.1 children per woman.
You may well prefer to live in such a society on philosophical or ideological grounds, but it simply won’t be around for long. I have no problem with a society choosing to commit suicide after a big party, but they need to make such a choice with open eyes and in full possession of the facts, and progressives are lying to them, pretending that their way is a functional and sustainable way of organizing our society.
"No, it’s not, because we are talking about a historical fact"
Since the women's rights movement isn't over and has never been statuc in its issue profile, I'm not sure why the fact that women's rights organizations fought for different rights in the 1910s, 1950s, 1970s, 1990s, etc. would suddenly stop evolving just before trans issues became a culture war touchstone.
"Women’s sports doesn’t exist in order to create a nice show for spectators, it exists in order to create certain opportunities for individuals of the female sex."
I don't necessarily agree. The core concern in any competitive arena is whether there is a level playing field. Determining what an unfair competitive advantage is is the most important aspect of sports (hence the difference between banned substances and every other substance on the planet). Trans women who transitioned (hormonally, not socially or surgically) before puberty wouldn't have a legacy advantage over other women, but wouldn't have a competitive pool large enough to sustain a separate category. If there isn't an inherent competitive advantage, I don't see an issue.
That said, if data emerges that indicates there is a legacy advantage for a genetically male athlete who hormonally transitioned pre-puberty, they shouldn't be allowed to compete against genetic females. But as of now that isn'tbthe case.
"Ah, and that’s the heart of the problem ... functional and sustainable way of organizing our society."
This whole part is incomprehensible to me. It is moral panic dressed up as concern for the future of humanity. Much like the market, humanity will find the most efficient way of advancing, if left alone. There will always be dead ends and roads-not-traveled. Many people choose not to have children (or are incapable of it). Many people will have a messload of kids. Hell, with immigration America could grow the total number if Americans with a native birth rate of zero. I think your what-if scenario is farfetched, to say the least. And certainly not imminent.
I don't think that preventing people from living their lives today in order to avert a problem that may or may not arise 100+ years from now is justified. If people are childless or want to transition or are gay, the future of humanity isn't threatened by them. That's just not realistic.
We’re not talking about “preventing” anybody from doing anything, we are talking about what we actually teach and subsidize. Right now, Western governments massively subsidize and promote women taking on traditionally male social roles, and Western governments massively subsidize and promote sexual promiscuity. For that, Western governments forcibly extract resources from workers and redistribute them to people who make bad choices.
In an actual libertarian society, most people could simply not afford to “transition” or have children outside of marriage. These are choices enabled only by expropriation, redistribution, and authoritarian government. In an actual libertarian society, you would also not see 60% of college students being female or the majority of doctors being female; such statistics don’t make sense in a functioning society. And such statistics do not result in increased happiness for either men or women.
You’re not on the side of small government and laissez-faire, you are on the side of massive interference in the market and society.
Nowhere did I say that the “future of humanity” was threatened. Humanity is going to be fine.
What is happening is that liberal Western societies have entered a path of authoritarian, government-promoted self-destruction, promoted by people like you under a false label of “liberalism”.
Of course, the area occupied by Western nations will continue to be filled with people (mostly immigrants), but they are not going to be governed by either actually liberal societies, or even the fake liberalism you embrace.
"A moral panic is a widespread feeling of fear, often an irrational one, that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society."
This is you. It's what you believe. And it's irrational.
There is nothing irrational about the observation that self-righteous, greedy, ignorant voters like you are responsible for the massive social problems the US is experiencing.
Furthermore, I’m not in fear about it. I’m a gay man without kids and the US has been good to me financially. I will just retire elsewhere.
"self-righteous, greedy, ignorant voters like you "
First off, I am a split ticket voter. On a local level I actually support more center-right candidates. For any local, country, and state position that handles fiscal issues (as well as sherriff, specifically), I usually vote Republican. For US Congress was a dependable Mike Castle voter until he lost. I was also a Bill Roth supporter (and volunteer).
You keep making unfounded accusations (greedy, ignorant, selfish, self-righteous), but you don't have examples of what I believe that supports your charges. You have made grossly inaccurate assumptions about my voting preferences.
Never mind that you seem to think the social problems of the US are a result of the things I believe and the policies I support, yet you can't actually identify what those positions or beliefs are without claiming broad, sweeping, unsupported generalizations, false accusations (or radical redefinitions of words like "tolerance"). You have literally called me evil because I don't think that trans people are bad people or that my beliefs are relevant to someone else's life choices if they don't hurt anyone else, or that traditionalism is relevant to anyone who doesn't choose it for themselves.
Traditional values are just one set of beliefs. They aren't superior to more tolerant values. They aren't inherently good or inherently evil. They are a set of principles to live your life by, if you choose to. If you don't, that doesn't make you evil or immoral or ignorant or selfish. It just means you aren't a traditionalist. And that's just a thing.
Not a good thing. Not a bad thing. Just a thing.
Of course you do, in order to get the whole package: regulatory capture, redistributionary policies, loose monetary policy, and low taxes.
I think you have been clear enough. Among other things, you favor anti-discrimination laws on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. You defend the ACA with its explicit redistribution of premiums from low-risk to high-risk individuals and insist on calling it “insurance” and say it operates in a “free market”. And you believe that the success of startups is due to operating in a free market, rather than a government-created financial bubble.
These are the typical views and policy preferences of the wealthy American elite. They aren’t enlightened or tolerant positions, they hurt people. And not only that, they are self-serving instances of regulatory capture and crony capitalism for wealthy Americans.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his wealth depends on his not understanding it.”
I don’t believe that trans people are bad people either. What I believe is that they are mentally ill people who need help. But the policies you favor result in almost none of them getting the help they need. Ditto for gays like me. Ditto for minorities. Ditto for the poor.
You are not embracing tolerant, live-and-let-live policies, you are embracing policies that hurt people.
I fail to see why you keep brining up “traditionalism”. I’m a gay atheist libertarian immigrant, I am not a traditionalist and I don’t want anybody to be forced to do anything against their will. It is you who is trying to use government to force other people to do/not do things against their will.
"Of course you do, in order to get the whole package: regulatory capture, redistributionary policies, loose monetary policy, and low taxes."
Wow. You aren't even pretending to base your attacks in reality any more. I pick the candidate that more closely matches my issue profile (individual liberty, fiscal responsibility, minimal regulation of businesses, secular government, moderate (but low) taxation, and incrementalism) and vote for them.
"you favor anti-discrimination laws on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity"
Yes. The Jim Crow South and the Civil Rights era are stark examples of what happens when biases and discrimination are allowed to marginalize the economic, social, and personal safety of segments of the population. It is not ideal, but people like you who think that there are unworthy people who should be denied normal economic activity due to genetic makeup or personal choices make it a necessary evil.
"You defend the ACA with its explicit redistribution of premiums from low-risk to high-risk individuals and insist on calling it “insurance” and say it operates in a “free market”."
I have never defended the ACA. As someone who has had to buy insurance in the individual market back when that was used to subsudize the margin diminishment of group policies, I understand the problem they were trying to solve. I just disagree with the solution. Personally I think they best way to improve the insurance market would be to reduce or eliminate employer plans so that the margin loss for companies wouldn't have to be capured elsewhere, but that would require more legislation than I am comfortable with. The biggest problem with our insurance market is how many peoe get theirs through employers.
"And you believe that the success of startups is due to operating in a free market, rather than a government-created financial bubble."
I think the success of small businesses is due to the effort, sacrifice, and work of the business owners. Why would you assume otherwise?
"These are the typical views and policy preferences of the wealthy American elite."
I am not the "wealthy American elite". I went to college with them because I am smart, hardworking, and was willing to bet on myself and pay the (admittedly ridiculous) price to go to an excellent college. My views are shaped and informed by my knowledge and experiences. Trying to make me fit into your premade category is square-peg-round-hole nonsense. And not even a little bit accurate.
"But the policies you favor result in almost none of them getting the help they need. Ditto for gays like me. Ditto for minorities. Ditto for the poor."
Trans people and gays aren't mentally ill. I'm not sure how you could possibly lay minorities and the poor not getting "the help they need" (what help? How am I preventing it?) at my feet. They certainly don't need you to be their savior. And definitely not in your "this is for your own good" righteousness.
"You are not embracing tolerant, live-and-let-live policies, you are embracing policies that hurt people."
By believing they should make their own choices? And embracing policies that allow social, financial, and personal damage for things that don't hurt anyone else is somehow more tolerant? Or is tolerance of different beliefs just something that you oppose across the board?
"I fail to see why you keep brining up “traditionalism”."
Probably because the things that you put forward are traditionalist. And being socially conservative and fiscally conservative isn't libertarian. It's conservative. Which is fine if that's what you believe, just own it.
"It is you who is trying to use government to force other people to do/not do things against their will."
So if governent can't "force" people to both do and not do things, there should be no laws to protect citizens?
What you are actually saying is that you don't want government to protect people. Ignoring the simplistic "what about murder, rape, theft, fraud, etc." rhetoric (a favorite "if not all than none" argument of every fringe player, ever), where is the line? Where do barriers to prosperity cross the line from the acceptable results of voluntary association to the marginalization of unpopular beliefs? You seem to be advocating for there to be no distinction: if a community chooses to punish unpopular choices, it should be allowed.
The Jim Crow South and the [pre-]Civil Rights Era are stark examples of what happens when government dictates to businesses who they can and cannot hire, do business with, etc. I.e., they are stark examples of the policies you favor.
I believe businesses should be free to hire, fire, and serve whoever they want or do not want to serve.
Sure you have, starting with the fact that you maintain the objective falsehoods that it is non-redistributionary, that it is insurance, and that it is purchased in a free market.
I didn’t assume otherwise; those are necessary conditions. But loose monetary policy inflates revenues and valuations, while regulatory capture protects businesses from competition, all policies you favor, and incidentally all policies that have benefited you financially.
And you retired at age 45 after selling your business. All of that makes you part of the wealthy American elite. I’m also part of the wealthy American elite. The difference between us is that I understand how self-serving and harmful the predominant political beliefs of our common social class are.
I’m not “fitting you into a premade category”, I am observing that your policy preferences are consistent with the financial self-interest of an American who is college educated, built a business, and retired at age 45 after selling their business. Your policy preferences are in part a reflection of Americans generally living far beyond their means, and then more narrowly redirecting government policy in a way that benefits people like you specifically. Obviously, you don’t understand the connection between your self-interest and your policy preferences, that’s why I’m pointing it out to you.
You don’t believe that employers should be able to make their own free choices about who to hire. You don’t believe that I should be able to make my own free choice about what kind of insurance to purchase. You don’t believe that insurance companies should be able to make their own free choices about premiums and insurance contracts. You don’t believe that a Christian baker should be able to make their own free choice not to bake a wedding cake for me. You just don’t believe in people making their own choices.
I will personally not discriminate against trans people on the basis of their gender identity; that is tolerance: an individual and personal choice in how to interact with others.
You believe that government should impose “tolerance” on private businesses; that’s not an expression of tolerance, it is a political belief. In fact, many people are proclaiming such political beliefs while at the same time being wildly intolerant in their own lives. (Just like we have learned that many people proclaim to be feminists but are misogynists and harassers in their personal lives.)
Well, for a libertarian that answer is simple: the government should implement the non-aggression principle. All the crimes you list violate the NAP. Not hiring someone because of their gender identity or sexual orientation does not violate the NAP.
If reducing “barriers to prosperity” is your objective, you are not a libertarian, you are a progressive.
Libertarians do not believe that it is the proper function of the state to “reduce barriers to prosperity”. That’s a basic philosophical position. But it is also a practical position because government attempts to “reduce barriers to prosperity” usually hurt the very people they are supposed to help and usually just end up being rent seeking and crony capitalism.
“Communities” can only “punish” unpopular choices by passing laws; that’s what happened during Jim Crow, and it is wrong.
If a member of some group can’t get a job in a community because nobody wants to associate with them, that’s neither a community action nor a punishment. Furthermore, progressive attempts to “help” such groups through non-discrimination laws hurt them/us.
Gays (like myself) do not seek medical treatments, just like someone who prefers chocolate to vanilla does not seek medical treatments for their “condition”.
Someone who seeks medical treatments (surgery, drugs, etc.) is, by definition, ill. Any trans person who seeks such treatments is therefore ill, and since there is nothing physically wrong with them, it is a mental illness..
Lumping together gays and trans people like you just did is really a reflection of profound ignorance and bigotry.
"The Jim Crow South and the [pre-]Civil Rights Era are stark examples of what happens when government dictates to businesses who they can and cannot hire, do business with, etc. I.e., they are stark examples of the policies you favor."
A sizable percentage of white people discriminated against and marginized blacks for the color of their skin. They prevented them from buying things in stores, living where they wanted, getting a good education, getting good jobs, and when someone was able to overcome these massive barriers to prosperity they were threatened, beaten, and lynched for being "uppity". They were aided and abetted in their terrorism by politicians and law enforcement who ignored laws like murder, arson, rape, and assault or, for the politicians, created legislation that made blacks second-class citizens. They were prevented from having a voice in government through racially-targeted policies and laws (Google "black literacy tests to vote" for a horrifying glimpse of discrimination stealing basic rights from citizens).
The Civil Rights Act was government protecting citizens and their rights from being stolen from them by bigots. Would I like to see a libertarian utopia where everyone got to freely choose who they associated with and there was no negative impact on anyone else? Absolutely. I would also like a billion dollars, a unicorn, and peace on earth. Human nature makes the latter as likely as the former. And as the various paleoconservatives here demonstrate, human nature hasn't changed since the Jim Crow days.
"Sure you have, starting with the fact that you maintain the objective falsehoods that it is non-redistributionary, that it is insurance, and that it is purchased in a free market."
Nope. Not once. Not in the entire time I've been on the site. I actually haven't referenced the ACA at all because I have no idea what kind of insurance people have or where they get it. Since the vast majority of people get their insurance from their employers, not the ACA, if you have to make broad assumptions about peoples' insurance, the assumption is that they are getting it from their employers.
"I didn’t assume otherwise; those are necessary conditions. But loose monetary policy inflates revenues and valuations, while regulatory capture protects businesses from competition, all policies you favor, and incidentally all policies that have benefited you financially."
I absolutely don't support loose monetary policy (the continuation of those policies after the Great Recession was mitigated created the fiscal problems we face today). I also oppose unnecessary regulation, especially excessive zoning, licensing, and certifications. I have been very vocal about my opposition to both.
I got my business loans in the 90s and, since I have no control over the fiscal policies of the US, my choices were to take the loans at the rate the market set or not build my business. You seem to think I should feel something (Shame? Guilt? Something else?) and/or that the fact that I took out business loans shows I support loose monetary policy is pure idiocy.
"And you retired at age 45 after selling your business. All of that makes you part of the wealthy American elite."
I have made enough money to, in the definition of retirement that I love the most, "pay myself to do what I want". I carry no debt, but if something were to arise that required a sizable amount of money I would have to go back into the workforce. I am not, in any reasonable definition of the word, "elite".
"I understand how self-serving and harmful the predominant political beliefs of our common social class are."
As do I. About the only tax benefit I get is the reduced rate on capital gains and I am opposed to taxing earned and unearned income differently (as well as dollar caps on things like Social Security taxes) so though I benefit from the policies, I don't support them. Although I recognize its limitations, I support the idea of a flat tax that taxes all income categories equally.
"I’m not “fitting you into a premade category”, I am observing that your policy preferences are consistent with the financial self-interest of an American who is college educated, built a business, and retired at age 45 after selling their business."
Not really. Since I have a sizable Roth IRA, my preferred policy on taxation would be detrimental to me, personally. I believe there is a combination of policies that would allow self-made people like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, the Steves of Apple, Mike Bloomberg, etc. to enjoy the benefits of their success while limiting the traditional American aristocracies of the "born on third base" crowd while helping entrepreneurs and small businesses by removing the burdensome regulations that makes running a small business such a headache.
My preferred policies are literally detrimental to me. And I supported business-friendly policies back when it might have left me with more business competition.
I'm not the strawman you are trying to make me out to be.
"Obviously, you don’t understand the connection between your self-interest and your policy preferences, that’s why I’m pointing it out to you."
As I pointed out, my policy preferences would, at this point in my life as well as while I was building my business, be detrimental to my personal interests.
"You don’t believe that employers should be able to make their own free choices about who to hire."
I do. However, dicriminatory behavior in commerce has been proved to cause direct harm to the group discriminated against, so it can't be an unlimited.
"You don’t believe that I should be able to make my own free choice about what kind of insurance to purchase."
I do. Especially being free to purchase policies from anywhere (often referred to as being able to buy policies across state lines).
"You don’t believe that a Christian baker should be able to make their own free choice not to bake a wedding cake for me."
I don't. As I mentioned (and explained) before, discriminatory behavior in commerce has been shown to cause significant economic harm to those who are discriminated against. The balance is firmly against a baker, who is free to do anything else if they don't want to follow the same laws their competitors have to. Or they can be a contract-only business. There are less restrictions for those businesses. That's another possibility.
"Well, for a libertarian that answer is simple: the government should implement the non-aggression principle."
Agreed. That's why the murder, etc. arguments (especially used to justify minority morality-based positions like banning abortion) are, as I said, simplistic rhetoric. I was specifically cutting off that line of argument. Yet you strawmanned the shit out of me, pretending that when I said "leaving aside" means "consider this example". About as blatantly dishonest an argument as you have ever made, and there is a loy of competition.
"If reducing “barriers to prosperity” is your objective, you are not a libertarian, you are a progressive."
No, believing that the ability to access and benefit from the commercial sphere should not be constrained by discriminatory behavior is libertarian. Such behavior is harmful to those discriminated against, as was amply proved by what happened to blacks in the South. If the balance.is between harming someone and preventing them from being harmed, preventing harm is libertarian. Especially in the financial sphere. The only way you could say people aren't directly harmed is if you could show that Jim Crow didn't harm black people. Good luck with that.
"“Communities” can only “punish” unpopular choices by passing laws; that’s what happened during Jim Crow, and it is wrong."
If you think that the lynchings and racial violence and intimidation and law enforcement ignoring crimes against black people and the discrimination that made it virtually impossible for blacks to prosper (or, like in Black Wall Street, allowed the destruction of that prosperity with no legal repercussions) weren't part of Jim Crow and were justified, you don't understand the top-to-bottom social system that is inherent in the Jim Crow South.
Just because trans people are a smaller group, you think it's OK for a community to do those things? Because refusing to engage in commerce with trans people is the exact same as refusing to engage in commerce black people. It is unambiguously damaging to those discriminated against.
"Gays (like myself) do not seek medical treatments,"
OK. Why does your disapproval of what medical treatments someone chooses have any relevance? It is as relevant as my disapproval of cosmetic surgery or dick pills for elderly me: not at all.
"Someone who seeks medical treatments (surgery, drugs, etc.) is, by definition, ill."
Not even a little bit true, but please continue to oversimplify something as complex as medical care.
"Lumping together gays and trans people like you just did is really a reflection of profound ignorance and bigotry."
Really? Gays haven't faced the same sort of moral panic, self-righteous ostracism, religious condemnation, and "justifiable" discrimination as trans oeople face now? Or that blacks faced in the Jim Crow South? It's no different, trans people are just at the early stage of their arc.
That is simply incorrect. While racial discrimination existed, what prevented blacks from buying things in stores, living where they wanted, getting a good education, and getting good jobs was segregation laws.
The primary benefit of the CRA was that it ended government-mandated segregation at the state and federal level and restored equality under the law.
Racial segregation, racism, and eugenics in the US weren’t promoted by “paleoconservatives”, they were advanced by intellectuals and academics. They were at home in the progressive movement and the Democratic party. And they were so widespread in the population because they trickled down from academic institutions into schools. Or where do you think kids learned to be racists?
The ACA regulates all health insurance in the US, not just people on ACA plans.
I don’t care what you “feel”. I am simply pointing out that you are wrong when you attribute your wealth and privilege to having a successful business operating in a free market. No wealthy American (myself included) has earned what we own in a free market.
Really? Shown where? How does it hurt me as a gay man if a homophobic employer doesn’t hire me? How does it hurt me as a gay man if a Christian bakery doesn’t bake a cake for me? Where is the evidence?
Jim Crow was government mandated discrimination; that’s why it was harmful.
Really? How is that not “even a little bit true”? You are just pulling these assertions out of your ass.
And if it’s not an illness, why should medical insurance pay for it?
There are no laws that discriminate against gays, against blacks, or against trans people. All of those laws have been abolished over the last half century. That’s a good thing, and that is all that was ever needed.
Yes, we certainly have. Not only that, I immigrated from a country that had government-mandated discrimination against homosexuals. And that is why I can tell you with authority and from personal experience how misguided, misinformed, and paternalistic your beliefs are. The people harming us now aren’t fundamentalist Christians or a few homophobes, it’s people like you pushing your political agenda onto us.
Some people disagree that cutting off your sexual organs is something to be celebrated or something that could reliably improve someone's mental state. Taking cross sex hormones or replacing functioning sexual organs is actively harmful to your physical health and is not a guaranteed solution to your mental issues.
The fear is that vulnerable people are being fed a solution that is no real solution and legitimate alternatives are being vilified.
That is not to say that transitioning is never positive. Just that the default position of conservatives would be it is a negative situation to have to deal with and a significant effort should be made to prevent having to resort to it.
Cross dressing is neither here nor there, neither is acting in non-traditional gender roles. The real problem is to take a rare and debilitating mental illness with an extreme solution and turn it into something that must be actively encouraged and supported.
"Some people disagree that cutting off your sexual organs is something to be celebrated or something that could reliably improve someone's mental state."
Are those people involved in the decision? Then their opinion is irrelevant for anyone except them.
"Taking cross sex hormones or replacing functioning sexual organs is actively harmful to your physical health and is not a guaranteed solution to your mental issues."
That is one opinion, but hardly the only one. If it is yours, don't take hormones or transition.
"a rare and debilitating mental illness"
It is rare, but not necessarily debilitating nor an illness. Using such loaded language is designed to make it seem like there is only one valid approach to gender dysphoria. There are lots of mental conditions in the DSM with multiple treatment options.
Bottom line is that if it isn't your problem, you don't get to provide your preferred solution.
It’s not at all true that my opinion on other people doing things with their bodies is “irrelevant”.
First of all, under our current system of government, if you cut off your penis, I am financially on the hook for the consequences. That makes it my business.
Second, just because as a libertarian, I don’t want you to stop from cutting off your own penis doesn’t mean that I have to be morally or culturally neutral on the issue. To the contrary, libertarianism isn’t “anything goes”, it’s a replacement of state rules by cultural and social conventions.
That is, we can only have libertarianism if costly/self-destructive behavior is limited by culture and social pressures. That’s why it is particularly important for people to stand up and speak out against such conduct.
"First of all, under our current system of government, if you cut off your penis, I am financially on the hook for the consequences."
You'll have to explain how. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see how that would happen. Can you walk me through it?
"Second, just because as a libertarian, I don’t want you to stop from cutting off your own penis doesn’t mean that I have to be morally or culturally neutral on the issue."
True, but as a libertarian you wouldn't support using the force of government to prevent someone from doing so, correct? Morally and culturally, from a libertarian perspective, you are free to do what you wish as long as it doesn't prevent others from doing the same.
And the force of government should definitely not be used to coerce your behavior (or theirs). The NAP isn't just about physical force. It's why I am against hate speech legislation.
"That is, we can only have libertarianism if costly/self-destructive behavior is limited by culture and social pressures."
I don't think that libertarianism presupposes an absence of self-destructive behavior. What is destructive (self- or otherwise) is a very subjective determination.
For example, religious extremism is both self-destructive and destructive to society in the view of many people. Not religious violence, just extreme religious beliefs. However, from a libertarian perspective, the only violation of the NAP would be from the children's position, correct? Someone being a radical Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc. who doesn't engage in violence is fine, from a libertarian perspective. It only crosses the line when force (for example, government coercion through legislation) or violence (for example, Eric Rudolph) is used.
Finally, actual damage has to be caused. And there is not really measurable damage caused by trans people. From a population perspective, people who voluntarily choose not to have children (or can't and don't adopt) have a much larger impact on the number of future humans than trans people.
It has all of the hallmarks of a moral panic, although it has a small enough base of support that it may not escalate all the way to legislation.
The thumbnail definition of moral panic: "A moral panic is a widespread fear, most often an irrational one, that someone or something is a threat to the values, safety, and interests of a community or society at large. Typically, a moral panic is perpetuated by the news media, fueled by politicians, and often results in the passage of new laws or policies that target the source of the panic. In this way, moral panic can foster increased social control."
Medically transitioning alone costs six figures, plus lost productivity, medical leave, drugs, and the cost of complications. Under US law, most or all of these costs are socialized.
In a free society, you’d be free to undergo gender reassignment surgery and hormone treatments, but no health insurance would cover you for it, and few employers would hire you. That by itself would strongly discourage most people from choosing to undergo these procedures.
Only within an actually libertarian society. Choosing to undergo gender transition while being covered by the ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, and non-discrimination policies, is not a libertarian choice.
It is quite objective: it is behavior that results in you ending up destitute or dead, absent charity or government stepping in to bail you out.
For example, monthly HIV medical costs are about $3000 (for drugs, tests, etc.); if you don’t earn enough money to pay that much yourself every month, becoming HIV infected is a self-destructive behavior that you can only engage in because society subsidizes it.
Well, and those beliefs are objectively false. The Amish, for example, have “extreme religious beliefs”, but they are obviously prospering. They are also not asking for the government to subsidize their lifestyle.
"Medically transitioning alone costs six figures, plus lost productivity, medical leave, drugs, and the cost of complications."
Do you mean through insurance premiums? Because dick pills and plastic surgery cost more each year than transition treatment. There are a plethora of more costly, more unnecessary, and more selfish medical choices than transition surgery. So it obviously isn't the cost, it's what it is beong spent on.
You are advocating for job discrimination against trans people because ... what justifies that? Your personal moral distaste for someone else's life choices? I am morally opposed to subsidizing everyone else's kids, but that doesn't justify discriminating against parents.
"Choosing to undergo gender transition while being covered by the ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, and non-discrimination policies, is not a libertarian choice."
Of course it is. If you have medical insurance, why would a libertarian say you couldn't use it? Libertarianism isn't "you can't use insurance for things some people don't like".
"It is quite objective: it is behavior that results in you ending up destitute or dead, absent charity or government stepping in to bail you out."
Gender transition doesn't result in destitution or death. What sort of extremist rhetoric is this nonsense.
"For example, monthly HIV medical costs are about $3000 (for drugs, tests, etc.); if you don’t earn enough money to pay that much yourself every month, becoming HIV infected is a self-destructive behavior that you can only engage in because society subsidizes it."
"If" is doing all the lifting in your example. Once again, yiu are assuming a lot about people you know nothing about. Not only is getting HIV somehow connected to transitioning surgery (wtf?), but you seem to be assuming everyone who gets HIV did so through "self-destructive" behavior and also that they don't have the abikity to cover the costs.
Unless this is another "insurance shouldn't be used for things I disapprove of", which is nonsense. Insurance should be used for whatever the policy covers.
So your respose was the exact opposite of objective. It was biased, made flawed assumprions, and pretended that the worst case scenario was the most common scenario.
"The Amish, for example, have “extreme religious beliefs”, but they are obviously prospering."
The Amish have a rampant sexual abuse and incest problem in their communities, are slowly losing their children to English society, have made massive concessions to their beliefs (like using cell phones, mechanized farm equipment, trucks, and computers to name a few) and are in danger of disappearing as a culture due to loss of population. As a group, they are far from "prospering". They are heavily subsidized, with the government paying for an entire separate school system for them as well as the normal farm subsidies and child credits.
You have a myopic view of subsidies and government handouts. Until (at the very least) you return the child tax credits you have aimed over the years, put down your rock, Glass Houses.
I agree. And that is why the US is going bankrupt, because everybody is trying to socialize the cost of their personal bad choices. That’s why drug addiction, obesity, HIV, transgenderism, etc. are at such high rates: nobody is getting price signals, and everybody is socializing the costs of their bad lifestyle decisions.
I’m advocating for employers being able to hire and fire anybody they like, without government coercion or intervention. That’s how free societies operate.
An insurance system sets rates based on individual risks; our system doesn’t do that. We have a medical system that socializes risk and encourages risky and self-destructive behavior and erroneously call it “insurance”.
Transgender individuals are already far lower income and have much higher poverty rates than non-transgender individuals. And that is with free medical services and welfare provided to them. In a libertarian system, almost nobody could afford to have sex change operations.
I’m not “assuming” anything. I am explaining to you that in a free society with free market insurance, HIV would likely kill most of the people it infects because most people wouldn’t have the money to pay for treating it and insurance companies wouldn’t cover it. The result would be that people would be much more careful to avoid HIV, instead of treating it as a mild inconvenience that someone else pays for.
I’m actually a childless gay man. I’m speaking out against the idiotic subsidies and “protections” that people like you advocate I should have. And that’s why I understand from the inside out how authoritarian, illiberal, and unsustainable your positions are.
"I’m advocating for employers being able to hire and fire anybody they like, without government coercion or intervention. That’s how free societies operate."
We tried that. It's called the Jim Crow South. It wasn't our finest hour, as a country, and it's why non-discrimination laws are a necessary evil in America.
"An insurance system sets rates based on individual risks; our system doesn’t do that. We have a medical system that socializes risk and encourages risky and self-destructive behavior and erroneously call it “insurance”."
That is about the most dishonest and irrational explanation for a product, sold by for-profit companies who have assessed the risks in setting their price, to people who voluntarily pay a market rate for that product. If the risks weren't factored into the price, the company would fail. Because the insurance market is a capitalist market.
"I’m actually a childless gay man."
As I said elsewhere, I was under the mistaken impression that you had said you had children at some point in the last year. That was my mistake.
"I’m speaking out against the idiotic subsidies and “protections” that people like you advocate I should have."
I oppose subsidies as well. Tax breaks, child credits, corporate welfare, farm subsidies, special interest loopholes, etc., etc., etc.
I do, however, believe in some protections. Rights are only rights of they are protected. No right is absolute, but at the same time the government is obligated to provide as much protection as possible for those rights. That's why I support the Bill of Roghts, including the Ninth. Free speech, but not free-of-consequence speech. Free exercise of religion, but not free-from-laws-everyone-else-has-to-follow. Free assembly, but not free-to-riot. The right to bear arms, but not the right to abdicate responsibility for what is done with those arms.
"And that’s why I understand from the inside out how authoritarian, illiberal, and unsustainable your positions are."
Which positions? Be specific and don't translate into rhetorical talking points (like calling support for abortion before viability "abortion on demand" or referring to legal behavior in criminal terms).
State what you think I believe (for exaple, "you believe that people should be able to be trans") and why it is an "authoritarian, illiberal, [or] unsustainable" belief. For bonus points, explain why the government or a minority cultural cohort should be able to oppose that belief with coercion.
Your idea that businesses were racist and the government came in and forced them to be tolerant is not only historically wrong, it is absurd. The Jim Crow Laws mandated segregation, over the explicit protests and objections of many businesses.
The US government essentially forces the creation of risk pools; neither buyers nor sellers have a choice. This is not a free market.
You really have a distressing degree of ignorance about the history and operation of the country you are living in. You need to do a lot of background reading before you can even begin to seriously discuss racism, discrimination, healthcare, etc. in America.
The problem I was highlighting is not the damage caused by trans people, but the harm caused to trans people who are encouraged to take extreme measures such as surgery or cross sex hormones and then celebrated for it.
I take a similar view with over medicating in general. I do not think that treatment is never justified. I am concerned that celebrating a chemical or surgical treatment for a problem as some great personal triumph is a strange attitude and bound to make vulnerable people more likely to choose those options.
There is of course the opposite problem, of discouraging treatment when it is necessary. The question is, what is the correct balance.
A major concern a lot of people have is the age at which the trans identity is being adopted by children and teens. Who will then be encouraged to take the next "logical" steps so they can be similarly celebrated for their bravery.
I am not suggesting someone be forced to do or not do anything. I am talking about concerns with the trans movement and the affirmative approach to dealing with gender dysphoria.
If gender dysphoria is not necessarily debilitating nor an illness, why does it require surgery and hormonal treatment? Your argument is nonsensical. Either people suffering gender dysphoria are in so much distress that the extreme step of removing their genitalia is acceptable or we are amputating healthy body parts for a mild problem.
In a society we are allowed to discuss our opinions about activities that we do not have a legal right to decide for other people. The only way to influence people without laws is through discussion and criticism of ideas you do not like.Your problem is that you assume that by criticising something I want to outlaw it. On odd take for a libertarian.
Your claim is that cutting off healthy body parts is not always negative to your physical health? What body part, can it be good for your physical health to remove when that body part is perfectly healthy and functioning normally?
your thesis is as mentally sick as the "trans people" who think they can change their sex. any man who think he's a woman is by definition mentally ill. same for women. as a society when we condone this trans ideology we're enabling mental illness. so yes it is binary -- biological men and women.
Breasts are irrelevant to this.
If there is a person with ovaries, no breasts, and a penis who chooses to be inseminated and carry a baby while sporting a beard, what would you call them? Male or female? Man or woman?
If you can carry a baby you are female. Period.
If there is a person with no ovaries, a penis, and breasts who says they're a woman and wants to marry a person with no ovaries and a penis who says they're a man, is that a homosexual wedding?
There is not enough information.
If there is a person with ovaries, a vagina, and breasts who straps down their breasts and dresses like and says they're a man, how would you know? And why do you care?
One would know simply by looking at them. 'Male' is not an outfit one can simply put on over a binder.
Why would we care?
Because they're demanding control over our minds.
When a person uses pronouns to describe someone, that person is often not there, or is a stranger being described. The trans community is demanding that, even when you do not know them, you abide by their pronoun choices.
Thus, when you see a person across the street with an interesting hat and remark upon this to a friend you must either ask for pronoun preferences from this stranger or refrain from using pronouns at all despite the fact that the only reason you're commenting on the hat is because it's all she's wearing.
This is wwhat we complain about--that you demand that we abide by woke rules in our heads.
According to Haidt et al. moral foundations theory suggests that the left is fixated on harm prevention and the sharing kind of fairness. I have no doubt that the left embodies more "feminine" thinking, and plenty of patriarchal science suggests that men and women process risk very differently.
So yes, the left and right, and others, live in different realities, especially when it comes to risk and how society should respond.
They don't live in different realities, they perceive the same reality differently...that's an important distinction.
People are typically more afraid of flying than they are of driving, even though statistically you are thousands of times safer in the plane. Just because you're more scared of flying, doesn't change that reality.
This!
it seems obvious that the left and right are different species. we're not the same creatures. the left simply emote, are low iq and cannot reason or think. every day the evidence mounts higher and higher showing how the two sides cannot live together. we need to split the country by ideology.
They want you afraid. That way you'll agree to their dictates.
I mean, just look at the framing here:
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1547324611875962881?t=MZImBlW4TJ4bzSZci-XwWg&s=19
An Ohio man has been charged with raping a 10-year-old girl who was forced to travel to neighboring Indiana to get an abortion
[Link]
This is Reuters. Supposedly unbiased, purely factual reporting.
The headline contains a notable omission and an outright lie.
"Ohio man" - ok, I guess that's true? Uncertain though, because he's an illegal immigrant. If he were a Proud Boy or registered republican, I'm confident the headline would've included that descriptor rather than "Ohio Man", but we'll allow that it's an accurate characterization even if intentionally vague.
"forced to travel to neighboring Indiana to get an abortion" - this is pure fabrication. Not reality. There was nothing preventing her from getting an abortion in Ohio.
Nope, same reality that we all live in. They are just to arrogant, power mad, stubborn, evil, deluded, and disgusting to admit it.
There cannot be peace.
This reply thread is the left:
https://twitter.com/MeganFoxWriter/status/1547405348679581696?t=9GdLGnljbXcnwOckc3Zeww&s=19
The Ohio abortion law would have allowed your patient to get an abortion. The AG and OH analysts have confirmed. Why did you claim the child had to leave Ohio for an abortion when that is not true? Can you give me your source for that claim?
[Replies]
Well, if by “libertarians”, you mean the out of touch, slightly contrarian cocktail party progressives who work at Reason, that may be true. Actual libertarians have a better idea of what’s going on.
The Republican position is pretty clear: Republicans don’t want their kids indoctrinated by sexual deviants in school, they don’t want their guns taken away, and don’t want to be forced to inject experimental vaccines into their bodies. I don’t see what any of that has to do with excessive concerns about safety, it’s about liberty.
And Democrats also know full well that guns, vaccinations, masks, or sex cult indoctrination in schools don’t actually save lives; they just use that claim as a pretense to gain power. You can tell from how Democratic elites behave when they think we aren’t watching.
Doubtful
https://twitter.com/Angry_Staffer/status/1547420662616186880?t=SGIEKvP85QvK00ClY5oJXQ&s=19
According to new polling, at least 1/5 Americans consider abortion to be their #1 midterm issue after Dobbs.
20% of the country lists abortion as their most important issue, and I’m supposed to believe the pundits who say Roe doesn’t change the calculus for midterms?
Mmmk.
Yeah, people say they care a lot about abortion, but in reality, it’s an issue that affects very few people: unmarried, sexually active, heterosexual women of childbearing age who engage in unprotected sex.
And they are not changing who they vote for. The people most fired up about "reproductive rights" have always, and will always, vote Democrat. It changes nothing.
"unmarried, sexually active, heterosexual women of childbearing age who engage in unprotected sex."
Married women get abortions. Women who don't have unprotected sex have abortions.
So to make your statement accurate, it would be "sexually active, heterosexual women of childbearing age"
But even your biased and inaccurate framing doesn't justify government coercion (and yes, a state government counts).
I’m not “justifying” anything. I’m pointing out that if you think that this is an issue that moves elections, you’re fooling yourself. Most voters simply don’t care.
You’re also wrong in assuming that every group that “has abortions” supports abortions, let alone the kind of unconstrained abortions Roe allows.
First of all, saying 20% of people say abortion is their number one issue doesn't tell you which side of the issue they are on....my guess is that encompasses both pro choice and pro life....if pro choice is your number one issue in an election, you are so far left that they were already going to vote dem anyways....and the same applies to the pro life crowd...if your number one issue in the election was pro life, you're voting for the Republicans anyways....so it seems to me nobody really needs to fight for that 20%...they seem pretty locked in.
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1547426024316616705?t=GxDMRL95J3lifLwpziUFXA&s=19
Remember how there was tons of footage and evidence of officers & others inside on 1/6 supporting insurrectionists, but then everyone decided it was too politically risky to investigate thoroughly so they brushed under the rug and now we still have no idea who or what is safe?
[Video]
Is that a clip from Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown?
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/ex-cia-engineer-who-leaked-vault-7-tools-convicted-biggest-theft-agency-history
The left vs right struggle for??????
The POWER of Gov-Guns.............
Why?? Because government has grown SO F'EN BIG it is everything.
Gov-Guns is the #1 human resource today....
This discontent between political mobs is EXACTLY a repeat of history again and again and again; Gov-Gun Oppressed citizens of never-ending growing Communism and National Socialism(i.e. Nazism)..
For the closest to piece and prosperity the world has ever seen... FOLLOW the Supreme Law of the Land - The U.S. Constitution and don't manipulate it and tear it down by not seeing it as have the targeted end goal of Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
"Recently, I've been thinking about how divergent Americans' risk assessments appear to be"
It's irrelevant. Americans are concerned about terror attacks like 9/11 not because they think the risks are high that they or their loved ones will be killed. The problem is that more intrusive and draconian laws will be put into place, and a more interventionist foreign policy will be enacted. These are results that affect everyone, not just the direct victims.
Much is the same with mass murders. The risks everyone faces is the corrosive effect these incidents have on the social fabric, like the erosion of trust in our neighbors and institutions. The chance of being shot to death in a mass murder is minuscule, but it's a certainty that everyone is adversely affected by them whether they are aware of it or not.
i've had many conversations with leftists in online platforms about the covid measures like masks & "vaccines". these people do not have the ability to do any kind of risk assessment so they just say that if the risk is greater than zero then we must go full on against the perceived danger. perfect example is "vaccines" for children. the data tells us that only about 1500 children nationwide have died from covid. if you do the math on the risk to children using the cdc numbers you'll quickly see that the risk to children is statistically zero, but the liberals can't do the math. they say if just one child died then all children need the injections. and so it goes with everything for these people. same thing with mass shootings. the article points out that these people "regularly fear becoming a victim of a mass shooter when they go to large, public events and expect to retain this sense of panic indefinitely". these are the same people who "vaccinate" their children and wear 3 masks while driving alone in their car. these people fear their own shadow and are pathetic human beings. i have no use for people like this. zero use.
I don't think the writer truly grasps what these 'two realities actually are.
The side of the debate most terrified of shootings is the same side that wants to disarm non-criminals and defund the police.
The side that wants to put you in jail for leaving your kids unsupervised for fear of being trafficked is the same side that wants to allow teachers to discuss their genitals with pre-k children.
One side lives in a morass of doublethink and insanity.
The other lives in reality.
"I don't think the writer truly grasps what these 'two realities actually are."
Yet you accept the notion that in a country with over 300 million people, there are two and only two realities you are willing to acknowledge. You are just as ungrasping as the author of the piece.
the thing about generalizations is that they're generally true. of course there are more than two world views or realities, but the vast majority of the 330 million can be put into one of two categories. that is just true.
"the thing about generalizations is that they're generally true"
They are also just generalizations and generalizations about Americans or any other group of people are a dime a dozen. The generalization you and the author are in thrall to are that half the population is insane and immoral. This is not the path to clear thinking and sober analysis.
it is demonstrably true, even if you're living in denial.
Damn right I deny it. It's not true. Otherwise you would demonstrate that the other side is insane and immoral. You can't of course, it's just rhetoric you are parroting from the TV or websites you like to visit.
anyone who thinks men can give birth, cannot define a woman, want abortion at 36 weeks and wants an open border is in fact insane and immoral. this is the entire left.
Your knowledge of 'the entire left' has more than a few holes in it. Do your own research and thinking if you are truly curious. Simply parroting what you hear on TV is good for the virtue signalling you are trying to achieve, but never enough for clear thinking and sincere sober analysis.
i have news for you. i lived with these people for the last 30 years in a very, very blue place (i've since moved). i know these people as well as anyone can. they are all low iq, mentally retarded, emotional people. they lack any and all critical thinking skills. and yes it is half the country. last time i checked we have a senile leftist in the presidency and he was elected with the majority vote. you are very delusional if you think the left is anything but the clear enemy of this country -- all of them.
The fact that you've chosen to live with 150 million mentally retarded, emotional, stupid people for 30 years doesn't say much for your judgement or thinking skills. My advice: find a therapist who's not mentally retarded and seek help.
I live in a very blue town in a blue state.
Crime is low.
The roads are paved.
All the utilities work.
The public schools are highly rated, lots of kids go to college from them and make a living.
There are lots of married heterosexual couples having kids here.
There are signs with rainbows and ‘hate has no place here’ around elections so there is some wokeness but it doesn’t seems to be ruining the place and the place has been super bluish for decades.
I don’t see that basic competence in running a town is only gifted to right wingers.
Oh your Blue-Gods hasn't stolen all your wealth via Gov-Guns?
Oh your Blue-Gods didn't claim all the land for the birds?
Oh your Blue-Gods hasn't "banned" your energy infrastructure?
Oh your Blue-Gods hasn't made commie-education all about butt sex? And if they did; what are they making a living doing? 🙂
Maybe your Blue-Gods just aren't competent in the blue 'wokeness'... eh?
Ayn Rand had something to say about left vs right:
Both [conservatives and liberals] hold the same premise—the mind-body dichotomy—but choose opposite sides of this lethal fallacy.
The conservatives want freedom to act in the material realm; they tend to oppose government control of production, of industry, of trade, of business, of physical goods, of material wealth. But they advocate government control of man’s spirit, i.e., man’s consciousness; they advocate the State’s right to impose censorship, to determine moral values, to create and enforce a governmental establishment of morality, to rule the intellect. The liberals want freedom to act in the spiritual realm; they oppose censorship, they oppose government control of ideas, of the arts, of the press, of education (note their concern with “academic freedom”). But they advocate government control of material production, of business, of employment, of wages, of profits, of all physical property—they advocate it all the way down to total expropriation.
The conservatives see man as a body freely roaming the earth, building sand piles or factories—with an electronic computer inside his skull, controlled from Washington. The liberals see man as a soul freewheeling to the farthest reaches of the universe—but wearing chains from nose to toes when he crosses the street to buy a loaf of bread.
Yet it is the conservatives who are predominantly religionists, who proclaim the superiority of the soul over the body, who represent what I call the “mystics of spirit.” And it is the liberals who are predominantly materialists, who regard man as an aggregate of meat, and who represent what I call the “mystics of muscle.”
This is merely a paradox, not a contradiction: each camp wants to control the realm it regards as metaphysically important; each grants freedom only to the activities it despises. Observe that the conservatives insult and demean the rich or those who succeed in material production, regarding them as morally inferior—and that the liberals treat ideas as a cynical con game. “Control,” to both camps, means the power to rule by physical force. Neither camp holds freedom as a value. The conservatives want to rule man’s consciousness; the liberals, his body.
You’re not describing conservatives vs. liberals, you’re describing fundamentalist Christian theocrats vs. socialists.
American conservatives have never been theocrats. And the people who call themselves “liberals” didn’t use to be socialists, although that’s obviously changing.
The right is l living in a reality.
The left is living in a false self induced hell.
While the idea has a lot of appeal, I don't think it can or will happen. The political divide is way more urban/rural than red state/blue state. And pretty much any society will find a way to divide itself in half politically. I think we have to convince most people that the current ideas of the left are hot garbage and should not be taken seriously. Hopefully before everything goes completely to shit.
Expulsion. The left doesn’t need to be in America at all. So let’s get rid of them. I’m sure we can find a place, or places to send them.
this is obviously the only answer.
Maybe the better answer is dramatic decentralization of power. If cities and countrysides define the political dichotomy, maybe we're better off having our political decision-making at the local level that reflects these local differences.
"Hopefully before everything goes completely to shit."
Too late.
"I think we have to convince most people that the current ideas of the left are hot garbage and should not be taken seriously"
You want more lockdowns, forced vaccinations, and exorbitantly expensive energy?
Because this is how you get more lockdowns, forced vaccinations, and exorbitantly expensive energy.
I keep trying to dream up a system where we all, or at least most of us, can share the same geography and perhaps some fundamental rules and other government structure, but otherwise inhabit our own nations. In my part of the world, we have Indian tribes that have national standing, and their own legal and economic systems. But indians and others are able to live, work, and trade together pretty seamlessly.
Yes, probably. Local government can be nasty and tyrannical too, but at least their reach is limited.
Decentralization is no real answer if the local governments effectively have no limits on their power within their territory.
How much does their limited reach matter when every local government is like that?
Except the limited resources of a local government puts an effective constraint on local government power. A local government can't print its own money, as just one example.
You seem extremely unhappy. Do you think that if all of the democrats in the nation were ousted you would truly feel better? Why do you feel so angry in the first place? What would happen if you talked to some democrats in real life, not online, instead of letting your imagination run wild about who they are and what they want?
Why does it have to be them who leaves? Why don't you just pack up your bags and go to a country that better aligns with your values?
Your solutions seem so similar to people who believe themselves trans in hopes that once they transition, all their anger and fear will be cured, when in truth the problem was never external.
It might do you well to stop trying to control everyone else and take responsibility for your own life.
I talk to them in person. It doesn't assuage the anger.
Taking responsibility for our own life means ending the leftist threat, you totalitarian cancer.
Do you think that if all of the democrats in the nation were ousted you would truly feel better?
Not all of them. Just the white ones.
All the leftards I've ever talked to won't acknowledge the USA is based on the U.S. Constitution... Instead they want [WE] mob rules government which is essentially meant to say a communist or national socialist government.
That is why THEY are the one's who should leave the USA in search of a country that better aligns with their values... But the reality is; they're all here not to find a country that better aligns with their SELFISH desires but instead they live here to ROB the USA of all it's capitalist wealth until it's broken...
Cunty Satanist is trying to gaslight.
People who want discussions and politics based on facts instead of relabeling are not to be equated with people who think they are a different gender than they are.
Cunty Satanist thinks he’s being clever here, when in reality he is just a cunt.
Hey CUNTY STALINIST, isn’t one of the rules of the church of Satan that you are free to destroy whoever dares to attack you or take away what’s yours? Well guess what the democrats are trying to do, always, physically and by the proxy of the law?
Cunty Stalinist doesn’t seem to be able to think in nuances. Its all black or white. Cunty Stalinist might have some borderline personality issues going on.
That's why I'm not fully convinced that local control is the answer. It's a tool, but not an end in itself. And you shouldn't have to move from your home and property because some busy-body assholes want to do local politics.
You've just stumbled upon an important function of state governments: ensuring that cities are upholding all the rights of all the people.
And what's the alternative? Leftists are capable of violence too when it comes down to it. Violent revolutions or civil wars almost never turn out well for either side.
That's why I'm fully convinced that local control is not the answer.
^this is the danger with radical decentralization^
When they can have debt 20 times their annual revenue and people will keep lending them more money, not being able to print money is not the constraint you think it is.
When states start forcing cities with excessive debt loads into bankruptcy and then disbanding the existing government, they I might think you have a point.
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With or without braided armpit hair?
So better to just sit back and progress further into full blown totalitarianism?
Bullies don't stop because you tolerate them.
I doubt there’s any armed solution that doesn’t end in an outright dictatorship in one form or another. Even if shit gets organized, it’s probably going to look a hell of more like the Spanish Civil War than American Revolution 2.
That or we degenerate into overlapping gangs of armed extortionists ala some Mexican states.
So, no, I’m willing to milk the increasing fiction of our constitutional republic and the last shreds of political legitimacy it entails until the last possible moment. Or hop in when it looks like something might actually come of it…
…something better than some kook digging a hole in the ground where he can hold a kid hostage and demand a return to freedom. Or some desert storm vet blowing up a bunch of federal clerks and their kids to kickstart the revolution.
7/11 is a magical place
I still haven't thought of anything better than Federalism. I do think the voting age should be substantially increased. More generally, the voting franchise should be restricted, but the only objective criteria for doing so is age. Otherwise, you get people selected based on criteria that can be manipulated somehow.
It would definitely be something along the lines of the Spanish Civil War + Balkans, and no we don't have the stomach for that.
So we'll continue to become subject to the worst aspects of nazism and sovietism until it's too late.
Welcome to the New Normal: complete cowardice and abject horror.
You’d keep mad Maxine watters around?
C’mon man, don’t be racist. You’re usually better than this.
Whoopis gotta go too.
Wasn't that an Eighties movie?
Do you have some reasonable alternative in mind? I don't see any better alternative myself, but if you do, please share. It doesn't even have to be something we can practically get to from where we're at now. "Benevolent" dictatorships don't count.
It is when those people who keep lending them more money stop lending them more money either when they wise up or go broke.
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