'Red Flag' Laws Require a Tricky Balance
If Congress decides to encourage them, it should not overlook the importance of due process protections.

It is easy to understand the bipartisan appeal of a policy that promises to reduce gun violence by targeting dangerous individuals instead of imposing broad limits that affect millions of law-abiding Americans. So it's not surprising that the Senate gun control deal announced on Sunday includes federal grants aimed at encouraging states to pass and enforce "red flag" laws, which authorize courts to prohibit people from possessing firearms when they are deemed a threat to themselves or others.
However sensible that policy may seem, it suffers from two basic limitations that cannot be wished away by consensus-building rhetoric: Predicting violence is much harder than advocates of this approach are usually willing to admit, and trying to overcome that challenge by erring on the side of issuing red flag orders inevitably means that many innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights, typically for a year and sometimes longer, even though they never would have used a gun to harm anyone.
The very concept of red flags assumes that experts can reliably distinguish between harmless oddballs and future murderers. But there is little basis for that assumption.
"The notion that we can identify mass killers before they act is, as yet, an epidemiologic fiction," psychiatrist Richard Friedman noted in a 2019 New York Times essay. "Experienced psychiatrists fare no better than a roll of the dice at predicting violence."
Even if certain "red flags" are common among mass shooters, almost none of the people who display those signs are bent on murderous violence. While "there may be pre-existing behavior markers that are specifiable," a 2012 Defense Department study noted, those markers "are of low specificity and thus carry the baggage of an unavoidable false alarm rate."
RAND Corporation researchers Rosanna Smart and Terry Schell made the same point in a 2021 essay. "Policies targeting individuals based on risk factors would result in an extremely high rate of false positives," they wrote. "Even the best available risk factors can identify only a subpopulation in which the risk of committing a mass shooting is on the order of one in a million."
In the face of all this uncertainty, it is vitally important that red flag laws include robust safeguards to minimize "false positives." But the 19 states that have already passed such laws typically have weak due process protections, which means people can be stripped of their constitutional rights based on little more than unvalidated allegations.
Temporary red flag orders, which are issued without a hearing and sometimes without evidence that a threat is imminent, can last for weeks. For final orders, which usually last a year and can be renewed, some states require nothing more than showing that the respondent is more likely than not to pose an unspecified level of risk—meaning that orders are issued even when the target is highly unlikely to hurt someone.
The red flag legislation that emerges from negotiations between Democrats and Republicans in the Senate could help rectify this situation by setting minimum standards for grant eligibility. The criteria should include prompt hearings, demanding standards of proof, a right to court-appointed counsel, and time limits on orders.
Senators should not copy the approach that House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D‒N.Y.) took in 2019, when he sponsored a bill that seemed to have been crafted so that every jurisdiction with a red flag law could qualify for grants. That would have lowered the bar to the level of the jurisdictions with the weakest due process protections.
The senators who are working on a red flag bill say they want states to "create and administer laws that help ensure deadly weapons are kept out of the hands of individuals whom a court has determined to be a significant danger to themselves or others, consistent with state and federal due process and constitutional protections." The details of their legislation will tell us whether they are serious about that last part.
© Copyright 2022 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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When a kernal of corn pops, it is a violent explosion.
Please hand in your guns and report for psychiatric examination.
It’s an agricultural insurrection.
Nobody needs high-capacity corn poppers.
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No tricks required. Just accept the wisdom of the constitution.
Both at the time of the the founding of the constitution and today there are criteria as a prerequisite, before, the right to bear arms.
There was no other reason to mention a well regulated militia in the constitution. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Meeting the criteria of “well regulated” whether age, responsibility or competence is demonstrated with a certification, licence or permit.
Gang bangers in Chicago aren’t a “well regulated militia”.
Yes, I'm sure the Founders wanted government licensing and permission to let their citizens keep and bear arms...just like they trusted the previous government, they just had to overthrow, with arms they didn't want to have to get licensed and obtain a permit for.
Think about it.
If a government gets so tyrannical that you will need those arms, you don't want to have the government anywhere near knowing who has them, which having to issue licenses and permits, before you get them, gives them just that.
A well regulated militia where they keep and bear arms describes responsible, law abiding proficient people. The ONLY people who the founders concluded have the right to bear arms.
Knowing that you are licenced to possess and bear firearms doesn’t help a corrupt state know what or how many you own.
What do you think is more productive to preserving responsible gun ownership?
Arguing to repeal all gun regulations? Let criminals, children and mentally ill bear arms everywhere. Or
Arguing to clearly define what constitutes the criteria of a well regulated militia today? As intended in the constitution.
It doesn't say what kind of arms, though
So, the govt gets to decide if you are allowed a natural right? Sure buddy sure.
Name a right that you can’t already forfeit.
It doesn’t exist.
trying to overcome that challenge by erring on the side of issuing red flag orders inevitably means that many innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights, typically for a year and sometimes longer, even though they never would have used a gun to harm anyone.
An additional thing I'm unclear on is what the impact on a person's criminal record, or the impact of otherwise being on a government list that would appear in a background check. That seems like it could have real impact on folks lives, and in cases could push desperate folks into even worse situations.
I have a lot of other concerns with red flag laws, but that's the one I'm gonna post so hopefully someone here can clarify for me.
Good question. State red flag laws have been around long enough to have some statistics for a real reporter to research.If the Dems think they could squeeze repercussions into a federal red flag law, they sure would.
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Which guy is going to get hired, the one with a red flag on his record, or the one without ?
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How about no.
Seems like the SCOTUS already weighed in on a relevant case against red-flag confiscation (9-0 no less).
Caniglia v Strom
Huh. I vaguely remember that now, but there have been news reports since of continued red flag confiscations. Will the Supreme Court continue ignoring these 2A violations, as they have with Heller and McDonald for so long? I hope the NYSRA case will slow down states, but I have my doubts.
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The real advantage of red flag laws is that they are unfalsifiable; they can never be proven to have been unnecessary. Whereas a single guy who defeated a red flag confiscation and went on a rampage years later would be all the confirmation needed for stronger red flag laws.
"Whereas a single guy who defeated a red flag confiscation and went on a rampage years later would be all the confirmation needed for stronger red flag laws."
Exactly this.
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What's all this talk about red fag laws?
Why should anyone care if they're communists?
What?
Red flag laws, not red fag laws?
Nevermind.
Red flag laws for the red-staters, and NO blue-flag laws for the blue-staters!!! No one even MENTIONS blue-flag laws!!! That's not fair, I say!!!
(And idiots who post here accuse me of being a Demon-Crap; WTF?!?!?)
You got SQRLSY all excited.
The only balance will be "is this person anti-statist? Red flag!"
This is a piss poor work around to the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Take away rights from the non-Ill out "of an abundance of caution ". The only abundance the government ever produces: fear of what a citizen might do.
The mentally ill ARE institutionalized.
The Oval Office is an institution, and the guy who works there is demented.
The Senate is an institution, and the Majority Leader is a compulsive liar.
The House of Representatives is an institution, and the less we say about the Speaker, the better.
on your last sentence...silicon and Botox have a tendency to cause dementia especially in older white women
Due process of law is so inconvenient. Arbitrarily taking away rights while pretending to allow a joke of a process is so much easier.
The powers that be sure think due process is inconvenient, when it comes to asset forfeiture.
So accusation implies guilt.
This is no different from asset forfeiture, or Title IX 'trials', so why is anyone suddenly concerned about that silly old piece of parchment?
Face it folks, democrats want to rule, not govern.
Welcome to the revolution.
The revolution is already over. The very last chance was when Barry Goldwater ran for president in 1964.
it should not overlook the importance of due process protections.
Good one. The chances that Schumer, Pelosi, et al , will not overlook due process protections are as likely as China will not overlook due process for their own citizens.
Hopefully
The problem with "red flag" laws is simple. How does the person accused prove that they are not a threat to get their rights back?
There are "mental health professionals" who believe that your wanting to own a gun is a sign of a mental disorder.
Then there's the fact that most Judges are elected. What Judge is going to remove a "red flag" from a person when it is safer politically to keep the order in place?
Like Catch-22 in reverse.
That's some catch.
There's nothing "tricky" about ignoring due process!
This is one of those pieces that make you shake your head. After listing all the reasons that Red Flag laws don't work, including the acknowledgement that "Experienced psychiatrists fare no better than a roll of the dice at predicting violence," it goes on to say that it's "vitally important that red flag laws include robust safeguards..."
So, Red Flag laws don't work, they're unenforceable, they're unconstitutional, but...we need to enact them anyway, we just have to make sure they're "robust"...? Gag me!
That was my reaction exactly - the author goes out of their way to talk about how bad they are, and then all but advocates for their implementation, but with strict safe guards... WTF!?
One more thought...
The crazies are already out there...they're easily recognizable shuffling along a sidewalk, pushing shopping carts, talking to themselves...they push people in front of trains, stab people on crowded subways, shove people down stairs, drive their cars through parades, and so on. We can't stop these crazies from doing harm to themselves or others, but we think we can glean danger from a random comment someone posts on twitter, and then confiscate their guns? C'mon man!
Not to mention all the incentives to the powerful are to implement the red flag restrictions every time. Miss one and you're roasted on a spit in the next election. Institute the rules against the harmless? You're just a pro law enforcement paragon of order. Red Flag laws are pure infringement.
"Policies targeting individuals based on risk factors would result in an extremely high rate of false positives"
"BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!"
How does skin color rank as a risk factor?
Depends on whether or not you are in Washington State.
Let's take the red flag laws to their (leftist) "logical" conclusion.
1. Crazy people should not have guns. << You are here
2. Anyone who has or wants a gun is crazy.
3. No more guns.
Catch 5.56 doesn't roll off the tongue like Catch .22.
Someone gets it.
Violating due process is the entire POINT of Red Flag laws. Did you not figure that out?
Bingo. No surprise that Teen Reason doesn't understand this.
'Red Flag' Laws Require a Tricky Balance
If Congress decides to encourage them, it should not overlook the importance of due process protections.
#BelieveAllWomen
Rageaholic on Red Flag laws.
what in the holy fuck, John Cornyn?
Half of Congress considers lack of due process a feature, since they want to ban guns outright. The other half doesn't want those laws at all.
So, "Congress" doesn't have a single mind on the issue. In fact, it would be best if you stopped writing like "if Congress decides" as if Congress were actually Mr. Congress.
If you are going to characterize Congress as a single person, Mr./Ms. Congress would have an IQ under 70 and severe multiple personality disorder.
'Red Flag' Laws Require a Tricky Balance
If Congress decides to encourage them, it should not overlook the importance of due process protections.
Fuck off, Sullum, you slaver.
In his defense, Sullum did say 'if' and qualify by bringing up due process. I have zero faith that due process will be part of the ugly procedure once some poor prole gets red-flagged for holding the wrong opinions, being insufficiently woke, being a Straight White Male, being on the wrong end of a resentful woman's hysterics, etc.
red flag laws sound nice, but they end up either being a gross violation of people's rights or completely useless. if you have the evidence to know someone will conduct an act of violence.... you almost certainly have enough evidence to arrest them already. if you don't it is a certainty that you will remove rights from people who would not have done anything.
If they wanted to _legally_ own a gun, there's a better than 50% chance that they would vote Republican, and that's the "doing anything" that bothers the politicians pushing these laws the most.
Red Flag laws are just another way to backdoor a social credit system. There is no other purpose except to control those who might oppose those in power.
Imagine if we had 'Red Flag' laws for speech, assembly, practice of religion, warrant requirements, self-incrimination - if someone in the government could tell you that you can not practice a right simply because they do not like what you've said.
Due process is useless for something that is basically someone's 'gut feeling' about you.
All this will do is make people less likely to get the help they need. It goes against years of work trying to destigmatize mental illness. Can you imagine the veteran with PTSD who is going to risk giving up fundamental rights to get the help he/she needs? How about the rancher who just lost the ranch that's been in the family for generations? The father who is going through a divorce and is likely to lose his kids? The mother who just miscarried? Not only doesn't it help them, it's likely will make things more dangerous as people don't seek help and the ones who might be dangerous aren't discovered. So, the next step would be mandatory mental evaluations for owning guns. And when that fails...
I'm for better mental health care. I'm for people seeking the help they need. It's a passion of mine. A cause de jour. I've been there after my brother died, a true crisis of faith and untreated depression, overwhelming guilt (related to not feeling as sad as I felt I should and not being there for his sons like I promised, mainly because the state awarded custody to there neglectful and abusive mother). Paired with stress from work and money problems, I came close to swallowing a bullet. I tried to be strong, tried to work through it on my own, but for my wife and kids I finally sought the help I needed. It saved my life and my marriage. One of the things that stopped me from getting help earlier was loss of rights. My counselor had to reassure me that she wasn't interested in taking my right to bear arms and she opposed any attempts to do so. She stated it was a common problem she encountered and opposed red flag laws and other such laws because of the stigma it puts on people seeking the help they need.
Any red flag law should have a requirement for the accused to be able to present a defense within 48 hours of their firearms being confiscated.
And I can see this law having the unintended consequence of getting abused women, and in some cases, abused men, killed. An abusive ex-husband/wife/gf/bf simply has to convince a judge that the accused claimed they were going to harm themselves, and then when their weapons are confiscated, they can easily assault or kill their ex!
Since when has a Democrat EVER cared about due process???
"Due process? What is that? " George W Bush
Red flag laws are the giving to the government the right to take what the want when they want it and you will have no ability to stop them....The gov reads minds, anticipates your possible response and decides your gun ownership fate......History buffs will tell you this was a growing prob among the colonist and the British army, so bad it in fact became a well armed militia law called the 2nd amend to stop government from stealing your guns and the rest of your inalienable rights......F J B and his socialist A-H's...let them pound salt...
Red flag laws in action :
https://twitter.com/i/events/1537796839428202496
There is no enumerated power for Congress to regulate guns or give money to states for any purpose other than, perhaps, to organize, arm, and discipline the militia, which I think could be extended to allowing members of the unorganized militia of obtain militia weapons. For example, making it easy for every household to have an M4 carbine for defense of themselves and the state might well be permissible under the Militia Clauses. Beyond that, the 2nd Amendment, as applied to the States via Section 1 of the 14th, would likely subject any sort of "red flag" law to the strictest level of scrutiny on due process grounds. The primary reason for Section 1 was to prevent Southern State officials from disarming newly freed slaves. Surely Sullum has studied the history and meaning of Section 1 of the 14th.