Uvalde Shows Once Again That Cops Are Just Armed Bureaucrats
What happened in Uvalde is part of a pattern, not an aberration.

As a backlash to last year's disruptive Black Lives Matter protests, many Americans have gone out of their way to show support for police officers. In my conservative community, those blue-striped back-the-badge flags seem to outnumber Old Glory—and political yard signs eagerly boast law-enforcement endorsements.
Police unions emphasize heroic "thin blue line" themes, as they portray officers as the only thing standing between civil society and disorder. Individual police occasionally act courageously, but such portrayals are vastly overblown. In my years covering these issues, I've found officers almost always behave like self-protecting bureaucrats rather than selfless heroes.
As Americans debate the proper response to the horrific mass shooting of schoolchildren in Uvalde, Texas, it's important to dispense with our fanciful ideas about how police agencies operate. Toward that end, Uvalde's school police chief and local police officials have provided Americans with a remarkable case study of real-world ineptitude.
Americans seem shocked by how police reacted while 18-year-old Salvador Ramos was shooting up Robb Elementary School, where he gunned down 19 children and two teachers. Ramos reportedly began firing at 11:33 a.m. Police reportedly arrived quickly, but didn't breach locked classroom doors until 12:50, as trapped kids made desperate 911 calls.
Essentially, law enforcement behaved like armed bureaucrats. Large numbers of cops showed up. They hid behind walls to protect themselves. They milled around, conferred, and secured the perimeter, as the shooter emptied his weapon on helpless kids. They certainly wrote reports. As one headline noted, "Police delays may have deprived Texas schoolchildren of lifesaving care, experts say." That's a safe bet.
A few other items reinforce the bureaucratic tendencies of police agencies. On Thursday, police threatened to arrest journalists who gathered at the school district headquarters, which shows that officers often can be proactive when it suits them. Second, state officials accused school police of refusing to cooperate with a Department of Public Safety investigation after Texas officials criticized their inaction. Police offered shifting explanations.
Finally, ABC News reported that in March "the Uvalde school district hosted an all-day training session for local police and other school-based law enforcement officers focused on 'active shooter response.'" So the police can't pull out their usual flaccid, all-purpose response: "more training." In a few months, police will no doubt be handing out valor medals. The city department already released a statement praising its officers' actions.
Before you get too angry, remember that this is not unusual. It's a pattern, not an aberration. The nation has so many mass shootings that it's hard to keep track of them, but you'll find the same complaints after each one. In truly dangerous scenarios, police have turned the "Blue Lives Matter" mantra into, "Only Blue Lives Matter."
Police officials insist they changed their active-shooter protocols after the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado, where two young men murdered 13 people and then killed themselves, as SWAT teams waited to engage. As CNN reported, that "watershed event" led police nationwide to head to the sound of gunfire rather than simply protect the perimeter and wait.
Yet look at how other shootings transpired. In 2018, Nikolas Cruz murdered 17 students in a high school in Parkland, Fla. As Cruz wandered the halls for 58 minutes, the school's officer reportedly "drew his gun but failed to go in," the Sun-Sentinel reported. "Instead, he took cover between two other buildings.… Instead of ordering deputies toward the building, (he) used his radio to order a school lockdown. More deputies arrived, but hung back even though they could hear the gunfire."
"As the largest mass shooting in modern U.S. history began to unfold, an off-duty police officer working at a gay nightclub exchanged gunfire with the suspect," CBS reported, with regards to a 2016 mass shooting in Orlando. "But three hours passed before one of the nation's most revered SWAT teams stormed the building and brought the attack…that left 49 people and the gunman dead to an end." Some police still defend that response.
It's hard to believe that anything substantive has changed since Columbine, which wasn't the first time police officials claimed to have revised their approach. In 1984, James Oliver Huberty fired semi-automatic weapons at McDonalds patrons in San Ysidro, killing 21. Police arrived within four minutes—but waited more than an hour before engaging.
As a lawsuit related to that shooting makes clear, the government (unlike the private sector) has virtually no liability when its failure causes the loss of life. Police agencies have won court victories affirming that they have no legal duty to protect anyone. Whenever police use deadly force, they say they did so because they feared for their lives. Defend it if you choose, but don't call it heroic.
At the very least, we cannot expect that police officers always will protect us. Until Americans face that reality, we'll never create effective policies to combat mass shootings.
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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The police serve the public, which is everyone else. Individuals serve them.
It’s a extreme travesty that the Rats in Congress/Senate use mass school shootings as a vehicle for so called “Common Sense Gun Control “ it’s the same BS Each & Every time- There’s already enormous amounts of regulation’s. The response is always- More LAWS! It’s the last thing this country needs- We’re in a sea of stifling laws , regulations and all this does is restrict, demonize, criminalize, law abiding citizens. Police are generally USELESS and only concerned about THEIR OWN SAFETY- People have been brainwashed into the narrative that The Police/ Whatever/Whoever they are. We have so many 3 Letter “Agencies” they’ve tripping over one another. Anyone paying attention, using LOGICAL- Not Emotional Thought can arrive at the conclusion that the shootings are positive for the Political Classes Goal to remove Guns from the general public. If anyone truly thinks that many of these “people “ care if a few hundred OTHER peoples kids are damaged, Etc in order to get a complete ban on Firearms- Think again- It’s true & pure evil, to look upon what’s going on in Governance- Anyone with even limited training, intelligence, common sense and COURAGE can do better than wait OUTSIDE for a HOUR AND 1/2 while kids are getting “Taken “ Of high notice is that the “Law Enforcement’s “ Real response was to detain/arrest anyone who was willing to risk their lives in defense of Innocent CHILDREN! Notice how if 1 “LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL” is shot/ Killed - Response is a MASSIVE incredibly expensive Man Hunt. They SIGNED UP FOR IT! If some kid is killed/Raped/Etc. It’s “We’re doing all we can “ Still think putting more “Agencies” on the Government’s payroll is a good idea? It’s becoming a jobs program for in many cases - Marginally intelligent Job seekers- Does it really take 8 people to solve 1 small problem- Just look at some of the video’s involved with LEO’s - If one’s able to find a uncensored raw video of the incompetence/ Policing for profit- Etc Etc.( Sure there’s no doubt, some Sheriffs mean to do good/but political pressure will be policy)
It’s up to the individual to defend themselves. People need to WAKE UP- Stop watching Lamestream “news “ Think Logically- STOP BUYING THE NARRATIVE OF THE Week, Month, Year. It’s all about MISDIRECTION & HIDDEN Agenda’s. In addition it’s high time for the American People to start WORKING TOGETHER- Setting aside petty issues/differences as ADULTS- Look how some people behave- Like 7.YO- Mommy, Mommy , Daat Baad man CALLED ME A NAME- Get a grip! Are people becoming SOO “sensitive “ they will smack someone in the head over a heated debate? WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE BE IN A REPUBLIC-( Of course it’s not been a Republic= > 120 years) Vigorous Debate is vital for people to work out differences
When will people stop Reacting to fear mongering political interference in “NEWS “ !!!!
PEACE UPON PEOPLE- STOP LETTING AGENDA DRIVEN NARRATIVES DRIVE U !!!!!!!!!
It’s a extreme travesty that the Rats in Congress/Senate use mass school shootings as a vehicle for so called “Common Sense Gun Control “ it’s the same BS Each & Every time- There’s already enormous amounts of regulation’s. The response is always- More LAWS! It’s the last thing this country needs- We’re in a sea of stifling laws , regulations and all this does is restrict, demonize, criminalize, law abiding citizens. Police are generally USELESS and only concerned about THEIR OWN SAFETY- People have been brainwashed into the narrative that The Police/ Whatever/Whoever they are. We have so many 3 Letter “Agencies” they’ve tripping over one another. Anyone paying attention, using LOGICAL- Not Emotional Thought can arrive at the conclusion that the shootings are positive for the Political Classes Goal to remove Guns from the general public. If anyone truly thinks that many of these “people “ care if a few hundred OTHER peoples kids are damaged, Etc in order to get a complete ban on Firearms- Think again- It’s true & pure evil, to look upon what’s going on in Governance- Anyone with even limited training, intelligence, common sense and COURAGE can do better than wait OUTSIDE for a HOUR AND 1/2 while kids are getting “Taken “ Of high notice is that the “Law Enforcement’s “ Real response was to detain/arrest anyone who was willing to risk their lives in defense of Innocent CHILDREN! Notice how if 1 “LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL” is shot/ Killed - Response is a MASSIVE incredibly expensive Man Hunt. They SIGNED UP FOR IT! If some kid is killed/Raped/Etc. It’s “We’re doing all we can “ Still think putting more “Agencies” on the Government’s payroll is a good idea? It’s becoming a jobs program for in many cases - Marginally intelligent Job seekers- Does it really take 8 people to solve 1 small problem- Just look at some of the video’s involved with LEO’s - If one’s able to find a uncensored raw video of the incompetence/ Policing for profit- Etc Etc.( Sure there’s no doubt, some Sheriffs mean to do good/but political pressure will be policy)
It’s up to the individual to defend themselves. People need to WAKE UP- Stop watching Lamestream “news “ Think Logically- STOP BUYING THE NARRATIVE OF THE Week, Month, Year. It’s all about MISDIRECTION & HIDDEN Agenda’s. In addition it’s high time for the American People to start WORKING TOGETHER- Setting aside petty issues/differences as ADULTS- Look how some people behave- Like 7.YO- Mommy, Mommy , Daat Baad man CALLED ME A NAME- Get a grip! Are people becoming SOO “sensitive “ they will smack someone in the head over a heated debate? WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE BE IN A REPUBLIC-( Of course it’s not been a Republic= > 120 years) Vigorous Debate is vital for people to work out differences
When will people stop Reacting to fear mongering political interference in “NEWS “ !!!!
PEACE UPON PEOPLE
Turns out it ain't that hard:
https://thefederalist.com/2022/06/10/a-would-be-school-invader-in-alabama-failed-when-the-doors-were-locked-and-police-werent-cowards/
Dude, the guy in Gadsen didn't have a gun! Nancy Pelosi could have challenged him personally.
We might guess that if he had an AR-15 he would have shot the lock of a door and the "brave" police would not have been so aggressive.
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It's unclear if the cops rushing the suspect knew if he was armed or not and I don't think most people including Pelosi (or myself!) would have challenged him without being armed herself. '....In other words, a man who “aggressively” tried to break into a school and take the firearm of a police officer was stopped because doors were properly locked and police officers acted bravely and urgently....' i.e. if the cops didn't engage he may have gotten his hands on a gun. Instead he ended up being 'room temperature'. Based on the facts, the cops were indeed brave and fearless.
I love how The Federalist is treated as a primary news source around here.
And even that article unintentionally makes Greenhut's point:
It turns out we don’t need celebrity lectures and sweeping gun control to keep schoolchildren safe. We just need locked doors and adults who do their dang jobs.
So in Gadsden, the police were unafraid to "do their dang jobs" precisely because the perpetrator was unarmed and the threat to the police officer's lives was comparatively minimal. If he had been armed, who is to say that the situation wouldn't have turned out exactly like it did in Uvalde, or Parkland, or Columbine?
But if he was armed "their dang job" would have been still to stop him.
If he was a frog he'd be bumping his ass all the time, but they could have gigged him.
Right. But we have seen, when the attacker is armed, the police have a harder time finding the motivation to do "their dang job". Which is Greenhut's point: how do the police view what "their dang job" really is?
Their job is to go home safe while not tolerating noncompliance.
Putting their own safety at risk to help a member of the public will get a cop fired.
A few years ago a police officer in my town responding to a domestic violence call was charged by a mentally ill teenager wielding a fire poker. The officer was disciplined for deliberately shooting the kid in the leg to stop him rather than aiming to kill.
Because what if you “shoot him in the leg”, but MISS? There’s a reason why anyone learning to shoot at human beings, is taught to shoot center mass. Bigger, less mobile target.
By bravely putting himself at risk, he saved the life of a mentally ill boy. If you're condemning that, you're an asshole.
Jeff dismisses facts through ad hominem attacks when it doesn't agree with his biases. But continues to use CNN, wapo, Jacobin, etc as trustworthy sources.
Please go away. There is an actual conversation going on here. We don't need you to shit it up.
I know right? Our biases aren’t going to confirm themselves!
It’s an accident that the review flag was pressed
When police prevent other people from intervening to stop a shooter, they should be charged as accessories to murder.
Worse than armed bureaucrats. Self-defense and defending one's loved ones is the paramount human right, and these assholes interfered with parents trying to save their kids from a murderer. They all deserve to die starving on the streets as pariahs.
-jcr
They will all be given awards, bonuses and raises.
Shirley you jest sir. Those parents would just have ended up shooting each other or a lot more kids, or been shot by the killer. You see, they are not the highly trained experts like the
Polce and should have waited until the All Clear siren sounded
It’s idiots like U with absolutely no clue how an actual altercation happens. Mabey watch a few more Hollywood editions of Cops - Whatever- Real good idea- Wait hours for so called “experts “ to arrive- Many cannot hit a target 10 yards away-
Whenever police use deadly force, they say they did so because they feared for their lives.
Cops don't carry guns to protect the public. They carry guns to protect themselves from the public.
Interesting take on the discarded leftist "defund the police" movement, now taken up by the right wing.
The obvious problem is the sissy men who live in Texas. If they had any balls they'd gladly break into a building held by a nut with as much fire power as they have. The governor's plan will work once they get real men to move there.
Ironically, the sissy police (government employees) impeded a mother of two from entering. She defied the government employees and saved her children.
The problem isn't the citizens of Texas. It's government. Root cause of almost all problems point to government "helping".
So Idaho Bob, count you for "defund the police"?
Not defund, but drastically reduce their scope.
Brand cops as cowards (perhaps literally, like on the forehead) when they act like cowards. Which is often.
'Defund' them insofar as not allowing them to buy surplus military gear and pretend to be urban commandos right up until someone with a gun actually starts shooting at them. 'Defund' them insofar as to not permit them to fatten their budgets via civil asset forfeiture, speed traps, ticket quotas, etc. 'Defund' them by paying out excessive force lawsuit settlements from the pension fund instead of the taxpayers.
In those ways libertarians have been for 'defunding' the police before it was a fad leftist morons took up. Only a special kind of moron would equate the two though, so congrats on being special.
The left hasn't discarded "defund the police." The left's leaders are just smart enough to pretend they disagree. But it is still an important part of the left's strategy to keep their voters out of prison.
Neither has the right taken up the slogan. The right wants police to actually do their jobs.
Please share some names and quotes from "right wing" people who are calling for defunding the police.
...I've found officers almost always behave like self-protecting bureaucrats rather than selfless heroes.
I'm sure they'll act better when they're the only ones legally armed.
Those kids had to die. Otherwise we wouldn’t have this opportunity to have a national conversation about guns.
Ha, "the Blue" is all into it when there is a nice safe target.
Covid lockdown protestors they go full force.
Stop the Steal protestors same
Active shooter, BLM, ANTIFA whoa!! someone may get hurt no way ! lets stand down and watch. Maybe go down on a knee and hopefully they'll leave us alone.
So, what's the plan in libertarian land? Defund the police?
Maybe disarm them?
The gun controllers swear that 2A means only members of a militia can have weapons.
The police aren't the militia. Neither is the Secret Service.
Eliminate immunity and public sector unions for a start. As long as there is no accountability nothing will change.
This is another good point. Treat police officers the same way every other professional is treated - they should have to get liability insurance to cover their screwups, instead of having their screwups defined away by law as not actionable.
Except that unaccountability wasn’t “defined away by law”. It was created out of thin air via judicial fiat by unelected boot-lickers in robes.
Yes, this is the answer. Along with complete elimination of civil asset forfeiture, though that is a whole different can of worms.
I normally don't comment anywhere. Comments sections tend to be a place for juveniles of all ages and political bents to vent their spleen from the safety and comfort of their own homes, and clearly that is true even on Reason.com. At least Reason has a few readers and commenters capable of reasoning 😀 So hat's off to you.
My plan this am is to tell assholes to fuck off.
Joe Friday, fuck off.
My view is that the police should focus on enforcing the law, and all of the OTHER stuff that police are asked to do should be transferred to other agencies, or simply not done entirely. For example, frequently, if there is a mentally disturbed person causing a disturbance, the police will be called to deal with the problem. But the real problem here is not the disturbance per se, but that this mentally ill person is not getting the help that he/she needs. And, far too often, when this precise situation arises, the police don't really know how to deal with it, the disturbance escalates into a full-blown armed confrontation and the mentally ill person is shot dead.
Similarly with things like traffic tickets or parking tickets. Putting aside for the moment whether there even ought to be speed limits or metered parking, you don't need a police officer trained in hand-to-hand combat and marksmanship to write tickets. Let some non-police agency deal with that.
So the left-wing idea of "defund the police" by completely eliminating the police department, or something, is completely bonkers. But police reform, by transferring certain functions out of the department and having the police department focus on its core mission, is a terrific idea.
The plan in libertarian land (a question Reason used to answer in their columns):
Imagine if the police were a private company hired by the city, then they could be sued. Also consider, if this were a private school, parents could sue the school for lack of security.
The other reforms mentioned in the comments: reduce police immunity, eliminate public sector unions, eliminate civil asset forfeiture, etc., become irrelevant. But they'd be good in the meantime as we move from government provided services to free market provided services.
A move back to Peace Officers not Law Enforcement Officers?
An end to the Drug War and removal of powers granted to fight said war, eg asset forfiture?
Song: The Gendarmes By Offenbach
We're public guardians, bold yet wary,
And of ourselves, we take good care.
To risk our precious lives, we're chary,
When danger looms, we're never there.
But when we meet a helpless woman,
Or little boys that do no harm
Chorus:
We run them in, We run them in,
We run them in, We run them in,
We show them, we're the bold gendarmes,
We run them in, We run them in,
We run them in, We run them in,
We show them, we're the bold gendarmes!
Just whats needed- another article about Uvalde saying the exact same thing as the previous dozen!
Don't worry about anything else guys, no threats to liberty and life out there except local cops.
All threats to liberty ultimately come from the cops. Without the police to enforce oppressive policies, government would pose no threat to liberty.
Greenhut did get to play his risible 'conservative community' card in the middle of the bloviating. Reasonmag, more Rommelman, much less, even no, greenhut, would be something that approached a standard of journalism not seen here in decades.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/everything-weapon-us-government-waging-psychological-warfare-nation
https://twitter.com/DrewHLive/status/1535244277378273280?t=UX-Ma2KCOwvI5LrejYR2lA&s=19
OPEN BORDER: Nearly 800 illegals flooded the Yuma AZ Southern Border last night, watch as they just walk straight into the USA | @TPUSA
[Video]
https://twitter.com/JudicialWatch/status/1535094406486773760?t=pT6d9F70yN0mQEoj8JXtgg&s=19
“The White House does not object to these illegal/illicit intimidation tactics outside the homes of justices. It is deadly serious and could get someone killed,” @TomFitton. Watch more:
[Video]
The problem is when training or practicing for these events they are not learning from past events. First they keep bringing up more drills for the students which as far as I can discern involves barricading themselves and waiting. It’s as if none of them read about the past, those that hid and or barricaded got shot those who ran lived. So that should be the drill, same as fire get the heck out of there but in this case run run run. That is what I told my daughter, you run, run to the nearest door and don’t stop until you get home.
Second the police should be doing the drilling, most schools are empty on weekends and all summer so if they want to be revered as heroes like soldiers then drill them like soldiers. When the school is empty they should be drilling…how do you breach this room, what do you do when you get in this part of the school. Just like troops they should know every school in their precinct and how to get through them to a threat as quick as possible, all avenues of entry and escape and the best way to rescue any civilians who are trapped, the fire departments do this so they should to. What police have become is either glorified security guards, take a look around any medical center or government building or airport and there they are sipping coffee and looking sharp with their fully decked out batman utility belts. The other thing they do is act as revenue stream by patrolling the freeways. Get them out of these roles and back into local law enforcement.
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1535228689046282242?t=6y4yb3WYTuEFkpWaGu906g&s=19
White nationalists and supremacists on social media platforms are using coded hashtags and innuendo to rile up thousands of followers on divisive issues that federal officials warn might drive some extremists to violently attack public places in the U.S.
[Link]
Says the worst about us:
1) Our cops really are what you say and only protect the property of the wealthy.
2) Our idea of "freedom" is that everyone has to be armed to the hilt to just go about daily life.
1) Cops protect the political class. They'll let the homes of the wealthy burn while protecting government buildings.
2) The Supreme Court has determined that the police have no duty to protect or serve. So if you want protection, you better do it yourself. The police won't help you.
The fact is that American culture has completely accepted bureaucratic decision-making as the way choices should be made. It is not limited to the police at all.
"bureaucratic decision-making"
That's an oxymoron. The first rule of being a bureaucrat is NEVER make a decision for which you might be held accountable.
Before I was to insinuate that the cops were individual cowards (although my experience with the police doesn't negate this but just the opposite) I would take a look at what orders they were given. If they made the call to HQ about an active shooter at the school and the order was to secure the perimeter and not to engage the shooter than the problem is most likely systemic or possibly just a coward in a leadership position.
Sometimes we need a hero, but in today's society teachers, nurses, non-combat military, flight attendants and dog walkers are all "heros" so why bother being heroic when all you need to do is show up for your job?
Yeah, and this surprises you? Cops usually won't save you when you're faced with a violent criminal. They aren't your personal body guards or a bunch of heroes or nannies for truant violent teenagers.
What cops mostly will do is investigate crimes and arrest criminals in order to remove them from the streets and throw them in jail. That's the best police can realistically do, and it's still better than nothing.
Imagine the conversation we would be having if the cops had burst into the room, and before killing the shooter, that individual had started shooting kids. We would still be damning the cops for incompetence. While training helps, no amount of training can prevent the sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't situation that the cops are going to face any time they have a dangerous shooter and innocent civilians.
A lot of mistakes were made before, during, and after this incident. However, I'm afraid the author's point and tone are quite incorrect. We can't undo mistakes, we can only learn from them. We should not damn the cops in analyzing their mistakes because doing so only gives us more errors, more coverups, more lies, more incompetence, and fewer brave, honest cops.
In analyzing errors made during an emergency response, the purpose is to allow many other responders to learn from the errors of just a few. It is crucial to not demonize them because then all those others will not learn. This is basic stuff - join the most podunk volunteer fire department and you will learn this lesson almost immediately after any emergency response.
Mistakes were made? Letting kids bleed out for an hour is a mistake, but one the cops should have not made in 2022, because they should have already learned that lesson from a dozen previous shootings. Surely they've heard of Columbine and Parkland. Remember the Las Vegas shooting? Waiting means more people die.
You are under the mistaken impression that cops are a highly competent, highly trained security force. Instead, it's a shitty job that people with few other alternatives take. Some of them may be heroic enough to do it anyway, but you can't expect people to lay down their lives for $25/h wages.
If you want schools to protect children, you need physical building security, security guards, and armed teachers. Nothing else will be effective.
Security guards have also proven ineffective.
Waiting means they go home safe. That's all that matters. They don't care who dies as long as it's not one of them.
Yep. The police see staying out of harm's way like cowards while people die as a workplace safety issue, like wearing steel-toed shoes and forklifts staying between the yellow lines. They do not see themselves as professionals with a calling.
No mistakes were made. The police did exactly what they are supposed to do, which is to go home safe while forcing people to obey.
The Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that the police have no duty to serve or protect. If you're getting beaten to death they're supposed to wait until the guy gets tired before intervening so they don't get hurt.
Usually I'm all about the hyperbole, but in this case I'm serious.
That's why "serve and protect" is such an ironic joke. Their job is to make you comply while keeping themselves safe. That's the exact opposite of "serve and protect."
sarcasmic: "The Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that the police have no duty to serve or protect. If you're getting beaten to death they're supposed to wait until the guy gets tired before intervening so they don't get hurt."
I rarely read such a motivated half-truth, coupled with an outright lie.
Ugh.... Well, it was a good reality check anyway.
So what I'm hearing is that libertarian readers are really no different than democrat or republican readers - everyone who disagrees with them is a complete idiot, uncaring, and self centered. All cops are demons, all guns are the root of all problems, and not a bit of this comes down to the shittier side of human nature which we all share to some degree and only are able to overcome by using our REASON. Right there in the title, isn't it?
That, the meaning contained in the title, went out the window 20 or so years ago. There are still some decent pieces concerning individual liberty, but popular culture has encroached. As for greenhut getting on the bandwagon, cop-bashing? He's an opportunistic, smarmy and fancies himself the arbiter of any and all subjects. He is also very definitely not much into individual rights the senior editors seem to run his pieces because 1. he lives in california 2. he hates trump
You are completely disconnected from reality - just how many times do the police need to be trained in active shooter response, and how man actual instances do we need to learn from - to get it right?!
This was far from the first incident moron!!
Bootlicking BS'er: "if the cops had burst into the room, and before killing the shooter, that individual had started shooting kids." He was _already_ shooting kids. If cops had burst into the room then, shooting kids would have either stopped immediately when he engaged the cops instead, stopped when he took cover, stopped when he killed _himself_ once he faced armed opposition (like most mass shooters), or stopped after a few seconds when the cops shot him.
Most of the cops on the scene had recently attended training on mass shootings, which incorporated the lessons learned way back at Columbine: If there's an active shooter, the cops should go straight in as they arrive on the scene rather than waiting for backup. The worst thing that can happen from interrupting an active mass shooter is that the shooter shoots cops - but he would be shooting at cops instead of children, and this is what we pay cops for. If you're too cowardly to do the job when it requires running _towards_ gunfire without spending a hour getting organized first, drawing a cop's salary is fraud.
However, apparently the police chief in command at the scene missed that training. He called it a barricaded suspect, not an active shooter, even though he could hear shooting still going on in the classroom, and even though kids were calling 911 from the classroom begging for help. All I can think is that he was SCARED STUPID. And the rest of the cops obeyed him.
The worst part is that this wasn't an exception. Many school shootings and other mass shootings have involved cops waiting outside until it seemed safe _for them_. This is especially true for the highly publicized mass shootings with a high body count. You have to search local news for the cases where the first cop on the scene went straight in towards the sound of gunfire, because usually they stopped the murders before the body count grew high enough for the national media to report it. But when that first cop hesitates, the next cop to arrive waits outside with him, and pretty soon you have a whole lot of cowards waiting for someone to give them a plan - in spite of all their training.
Dr Reason & Steven,
Stop using the names of Mass Shooters. Many psychologists, experts, and orgs recommend to not publish the names or photos of the shooters. This is not that hard of a stance to take. There are would be mass shooters out there that want the notoriety, and you are providing that to them.
While Reason has much smaller platform compared to MSM, you can be better. We can disagree on the role of government and specifically how to address these issues. But this is a simple line to draw. The public doesn't need to know the shooter's name unless they are still at large, or there are accomplices needing to be found. However, the overwhelming majority are lone gunman that are either killed or captured.
Be better.
Arm the kids. It's the only way. Lower the age for buying an AR-5 to potty-trained.
You guys are a hoot. Robb Elementary was the red state solution - no democrats to mess up the legislation or governor's edicts and tough strong Texas cops and Rangers, not to mention civilians armed to the teeth crawling everywhere. It didn't work because 1 nut with an assault rifle is enough to freeze normal humans. Most of us - including the cops - aren't Jack Reacher and 19 good guys with a gun didn't get it done.
Ban AR-15s and other high velocity capable semi-automatics with high capacity magazines and maybe normal humans will like their odds enough to risk it for the kids. Normal humans - not the guy you imagine you are when you pose in the mirror with your AR-15 - is what we've got.
Another authoritarian who actually thinks banning = eliminating. I’m going to assume you know very little about gun ownership or concealed handgun laws, because you would probably know that it is always illegal for a civilian to carry a weapon at a school. Question for you: what happens when we apply your red-vs-blue state logic to blue states where mass shootings have occurred? New York and California have implemented most of the gun-control crowd’s favorite policy solutions (waiting periods, universal background checks, virtually no concealed carry permits granted, stop and frisk, bans on all sorts of guns and accessories, red-flag laws etc.). If you argue that red state gun fetishism hasn’t helped, surely you would agree that blue-state restrictionist has also failed? I suspect not, since your comment is clearly partisan in nature.
You don't have to assume. It knows very little about anything.
BigEEE, until we have federal laws, the state laws are ineffective, There are no border checks and in fact criminals in places like NY rely on guns bought - legally or otherwise - in other places like Georgia and driven up in the back of trunks.
Of course virtually no law will eliminate the crime it targets, so the intelligent assessment of it's effectiveness should be whether it lessens it.
Because if Salvador Ramos had a 12-gauge shotgun instead of an AR-15, people would have been falling all over themselves to try to disarm him?
LOL.
Given an hour, any weapon would have resulted in the same number of casualties, yes even a shovel like Tony and Joe jokes about yesterday. It isn't the weapon but the person who wields the weapon that is the problem. Joe is fixated on the weapon rather than the criminal. Because Joe is a simpleton, who believes taking away rights will somehow cause evil people not to commit evil. We have 5500+ gun laws in this country, we have laws against carrying in schools, we have laws against murder, none of them stopped this tragedy, but Joe is sure if we ban semi-automatic rifle firing a caliber considered to small for anything but coyotes (average weight 35 pounds) and smaller game, and considered since 1964 as being to light to be lethal for military use by the Army and Marine Corp (who were forced to adopt the M-16 by Robert McNamara over their protests) and after five decades of combat and multiple redesigns of the rifle and ammunition to increase lethality without much improvement, the Army finally decided to abandon it in favor of a much larger round, that these killings will surely stop. I've given the actual history of the M-16 and AR-15 to Joe, we've (multiple posters) have shown the 5.56 mm is not a really lethal round, that it was not developed as a weapon of war but developed from a varmint cartridge. Myself, and multiple other posters have destroyed his assertions that the 5.56 is some magically super round, despite only delivering a 75 grain round at around 3000 fps, and is greatly outclassed by hunting rounds (like the venerable .30-06 which was developed specifically for war). Nothing about the AR-15 makes it more lethal than any other semi-automatic rifle around. Or any bolt action rifle, or lever action rifle, etc. The rate of fire isn't any different. The cartridge is small. Its not concealable. But he continues to come here day after day and make the same remarks and never changing them, regardless of any information provided. It's no longer worth even trying to debate him. He is ignorant of guns and but he actually doesn't even realize how ignorant he sounds or he doesn't care.
Soldeir ignores the significant fact that the cops would have no problem quickly breaking down the door and confronting a guy armed with a knife. It is a lot different when they are facing a nut with the same lethal armaments' they have.
I won't comment on your intelligence - who GAF - but overlooking this obvious factor says a lot.
Given an hour, any weapon would have resulted in the same number of casualties, yes even a shovel like Tony and Joe jokes about yesterday. It isn't the weapon but the person who wields the weapon that is the problem. Joe is fixated on the weapon rather than the criminal. Because Joe is a simpleton, who believes taking away rights will somehow cause evil people not to commit evil. We have 5500+ gun laws in this country, we have laws against carrying in schools, we have laws against murder, none of them stopped this tragedy, but Joe is sure if we ban semi-automatic rifle firing a caliber considered to small for anything but coyotes (average weight 35 pounds) and smaller game, and considered since 1964 as being to light to be lethal for military use by the Army and Marine Corp (who were forced to adopt the M-16 by Robert McNamara over their protests) and after five decades of combat and multiple redesigns of the rifle and ammunition to increase lethality without much improvement, the Army finally decided to abandon it in favor of a much larger round, that these killings will surely stop. I've given the actual history of the M-16 and AR-15 to Joe, we've (multiple posters) have shown the 5.56 mm is not a really lethal round, that it was not developed as a weapon of war but developed from a varmint cartridge. Myself, and multiple other posters have destroyed his assertions that the 5.56 is some magically super round, despite only delivering a 75 grain round at around 3000 fps, and is greatly outclassed by hunting rounds (like the venerable .30-06 which was developed specifically for war). Nothing about the AR-15 makes it more lethal than any other semi-automatic rifle around. Or any bolt action rifle, or lever action rifle, etc. The rate of fire isn't any different. The cartridge is small. Its not concealable. But he continues to come here day after day and make the same remarks and never changing them, regardless of any information provided. It's no longer worth even trying to debate him. He is ignorant of guns and but he actually doesn't even realize how ignorant he sounds or he doesn't care. He rather take away our rights than do something that may actually work, like hardening schools and arming teachers like Israel did to virtually end school shootings.
PS Soldier is unloading false information about AR-15s again - small rounds at high velocity will fuck you up worse than large rounds since KE= Mass/2 x Velocity squared, a fact noted ad nauseum by ER docs who deal with the wounded all the time. As to the utility of AR-15s to battles, here's the comments of retired Major General Paul Eaton who trained Iraqi troops in Iraqi Freedom:
"As the former Commanding General of the Infantry Center at Fort Benning and Chief of Infantry, I know a bit about weapons. Let me state unequivocally — For all intents and purposes, the AR-15 and rifles like it are weapons of war. A thread:
Those opposed to assault weapon bans continue to play games with AR-15 semantics, pretending there’s some meaningful differences between it and the M4 carbine that the military carries. There really aren’t.
The military began a transition from the M16 to the M4, an improved M16, some years ago. The AR-15 is essentially the civilian version of the M16. The M4 is really close to the M16, and the AR-15.
So what’s the difference between the military’s M4 and the original AR-15? Barrel length and the ability to shoot three round bursts. M4s can shoot in three round bursts. AR-15s can only shoot single shot.
But even now, you can buy AR-15s in variable barrel lengths with Weaver or Picatinny rails for better sights and aiming assists like lasers. Like the military, but w/o the bayonet.
But our troops usually use single shot, not burst fire. You’re able to fire a much more accurate (deadly) shot, that way. Note: you can buy our Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight on Amazon. So troops usually select the same fire option available on AR-15.
That is why the AR-15 is ACCURATELY CALLED a ‘weapon of war.’ It is a very deadly weapon with the same basic functionality that our troops use to kill the enemy. Don’t take the bait when anti-gun-safety folks argue about it. They know it’s true. Now you do too. "
From
Good luck selling your false choice to Texas.
Greenhut being 'the umpire of neutrality' again, one sees. One also sees, if one isn't a lackwit, that if one does not get behind a wall, or some other cover when bullets are or may be coming one's way, the chance of getting hit is higher. I am no fan of cops in general, but less a fan of generic jump on the bandwagon cop-bashing from asshats who weren't there but see fit to pass judgement. In short, a large swath of this culture's modus operandi, not having any experience but talking as if they had a career in combat and were there.
Then soldier, maybe you can explain the complete failure in this case of the all-Red Texas government's plan to combat gun violence with "one good guy with a gun". There 19 "good guys with a gun" but apparently they succumbed to normal human reluctance to charge a nut with an AR-15.
How will next time be different?
It was a Gun Free Zone you fucking retard. How the fuck was there supposed to be a good guy with a gun when it was clearly illegal for a good guy with a gun to be there?
This is your brilliant argument? Give up your guns so the police can sit around for an hour and let your children be massacred? You seem to be of the opinion that the rest of us believe in your fairy tale about eliminating all guns from the United States. It will never happen Joe. Never.
I don't understand the point of the headline of this article. "Police are just armed bureaucrats". I guess it's about as true as "doctors are just plumbers who can write prescriptions"; a sort of glib pronouncement that is backed up only by a few specific incidents that serve to confer disapproval on an entire profession. One might as well say that Reason writers are just a bunch of cranky right-wingers who have been published.
I certainly understand making a point against the magical thinking that puts the tens of thousands of police officers on a pedestal of being invariably heroic, selfless, and competent (something that we tend to do with other professions like physicians and published writers, also). It does seem patently unfair to cast such a bitter accusation against the 19 cops, as a group, who spent an hour waiting in the school hallway. It smacks of a different sort of magical thinking; of a few rouge officers overcoming the timidity of the brass in order to save the day on their own.
It appears that a huge part of the blame may properly be laid on the school system police chief (who has had a week to come up with a bunch of highly unlikely explanations for his behavior) and with additional blame going to the leaders around him for not seizing control from him. To blame a group of cops who were trained to act under coordinated orders not acting on their own is as unfair and inaccurate as blaming the entirety of the profession as being gun-toting bureaucrats.
+1 Philo
The tragic situation was not handled well and blame should be meted out, but primarily as a learning tool. As is well known, war is chaos. SNAFU is the rule.
"I was just following orders."
I have yet to see or hear a blow-by-blow account of bringing Ramos down, and I don't expect ever to. If I do hear one, I expect it to be solid lies.
So I speculate: did Ramos use up his ammunition before the assault?
Did Ramos (try to) surrender?
Did the fusillade undoubtedly accompanying the assault injure or kill any children that Ramos hadn't (yet?) shot?
We'll never know and, in truth, the tardy attackers might not know in every case of an injured or dead child. The matter will never be honestly investigated, much less reported on. It might be (conveniently) impossible.