Unfazed by the Second Amendment, Democrats Want To Ban Gun Purchases by Young Adults
Two federal appeals courts recently concluded that such age restrictions are unconstitutional.

The perpetrators of the recent mass shootings in Buffalo, New York, and Uvalde, Texas, both passed background checks when they bought the rifles they used in those attacks. That's because neither had a disqualifying criminal or psychiatric record, which is typically true of mass shooters. Given those facts, it was puzzling that politicians responded to the massacres by demanding an expanded federal background-check requirement for gun buyers.
By contrast, proposals to raise the minimum purchase age for long guns at least have something to do with the Buffalo and Uvalde attacks, since both shooters were 18 years old. But it is hard to see how that policy can be reconciled with the Second Amendment unless you assume that 18-to-20-year-olds, unlike older adults, do not have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Two federal appeals courts recently rejected that proposition, citing a long tradition of gun ownership by young adults.
The minimum age for buying handguns from federally licensed dealers is 21. But that rule does not apply to private handgun sales or to purchases of shotguns or rifles; the federal minimum age for both is 18. Some states impose additional age restrictions. In New York, for example, legal handgun possession requires a license that can be obtained only by residents 21 or older, while 18 is the minimum age for buying long guns. New Jersey's rules are similar.
Last week, New York Gov. Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, said she favored tightening her state's age restrictions. "How does an 18-year-old purchase an AR-15 in the State of New York [or the] State of Texas?" she asked. "That person's not old enough to buy a legal drink. I want to work with the legislature to change that. I want it to be 21. I think that's just common sense."
New York already bans the sale of "assault weapons" to all civilians, regardless of age. It defines that category to include semi-automatic rifles that accept detachable magazines and have any of several prohibited features, such as a folding stock, a pistol grip, a bayonet mount, or a threaded barrel. Guns without those features remain legal, even when they fire the same ammunition at the same rate with the same muzzle velocity as prohibited models.
According to the online manifesto that police attributed to the Buffalo shooter, the Bushmaster XM-15 rifle he used was legal when he bought it because it had been fitted with a fixed magazine. He easily reversed that modification, transforming a legal rifle into a prohibited "assault weapon." That change had practical consequences, since it allowed him to use detachable magazines, including magazines that exceeded New York's 10-round limit. But other workarounds, such as replacing an adjustable stock with a fixed stock or a pistol grip with a Thordsen grip or a spur grip, allow New Yorkers to legally buy and possess rifles that are functionally identical to the ones targeted by the state's "assault weapon" ban.
Hochul evidently wants to set a minimum purchase age of 21 for such "featureless" rifles. But it's not clear how that category would be defined. It could be limited to modified versions of AR-15-style rifles like the Bushmaster XM-15, or it could cover all semi-automatic rifles that accept detachable magazines, which would have a much broader impact. Since Hochul added that "I don't want 18-year-olds to have guns," the rule she has in mind may be even more sweeping, encompassing all rifles and shotguns.
That approach would be similar to what Gov. Phil Murphy, another Democrat, wants to see in New Jersey, which likewise already has an "assault weapon" ban. Murphy supports raising his state's minimum purchase age for all firearms to 21.
California, which has long prohibited the sale of handguns to adults younger than 21, recently expanded that restriction to cover all centerfire semi-automatic rifles. This month the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit said that new rule was inconsistent with the Second Amendment, even as it upheld a separate law requiring 18-to-20-year-olds to obtain hunting licenses before buying long guns.
For centuries in England and America, a three-judge panel noted in Jones v. Bonta, citizens as young as 15 or 16 were expected to participate in militias and posses, bringing their own weapons. By the time the Second Amendment was ratified, the "well-regulated militia" it mentions was understood to include adult males 18 or older. According to the Supreme Court, the definition of that militia is crucial in determining the Second Amendment's scope.
In the landmark 2008 case District of Columbia v. Heller, the Court nevertheless rejected the idea that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" is limited to militia service, saying it also includes the right to possess guns "in common use" for "lawful purposes" such as self-defense. In Jones, U.S. District Judge M. James Lorenz relied on a variation of the militia-only argument when he rejected a motion for a preliminary injunction against enforcement of California's ban on selling semi-automatic rifles to young adults. Unlike older adults, Lorenz said, 18-to-20-year-olds do not have an individual right to armed self-defense.
The 9th Circuit said that claim was inconsistent with the Supreme Court's Second Amendment precedents. "The district court's main premise has already been rejected," Judge Ryan Nelson wrote in the majority opinion. "The right is not conditioned on militia service. Indeed, that was the position of the dissenters in Heller, and the Court rejected it."
California also cited state laws enacted in the 19th century that restricted firearm sales to residents younger than 21. The 9th Circuit thought that record was inadequate to establish the constitutionality of California's age restrictions.
"We identify twenty-eight such state laws passed between 1856 and 1897," Nelson wrote. "Of these laws, nineteen banned sales of only pistols to minors, and several
had exceptions for hunting or parental consent. Of the nonpistol bans, three only applied to minors under fifteen years old, only required parental consent, or both. Eight states banned the sale of all firearms or deadly or dangerous weapons to minors."
The Supreme Court did not begin applying the Bill of Rights to the states via the 14th Amendment until the 1920s, and it did not do so with the Second Amendment until 2010. But several state constitutions included protections analogous to the Second Amendment.
"The Reconstruction-era laws show that long guns were far less regulated than handguns," Nelson wrote. "Ruling out other state laws that are similarly inapplicable
(laws only requiring parental consent, only banning dangerous and deadly weapons, and only applying to children under fifteen years old), we are left with only five
complete bans on sales of firearms to minors. Of these five laws, three were passed in states without a Second Amendment analog in their state constitution. So only two states—Kentucky and Michigan—banned the sale of firearms to minors and had a Second Amendment analog. These two laws—both passed over a decade after the
ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment—cannot contravene the Second Amendment's original public meaning."
Since "our historical analysis leads us to conclude that young adults have a Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms," the 9th Circuit said, the question is whether the burden that California's age restriction imposes on that right passes constitutional muster. Even assuming that young adults have such a right, Lorenz said, California's rule easily passes "intermediate scrutiny," which requires a "reasonable fit" between a law and a "significant, substantial, or important" government interest.
The 9th Circuit concluded that Lorenz erred by applying intermediate scrutiny. The correct test, it said, is "strict scrutiny," which requires that a challenged law be "narrowly tailored" to serve a "compelling" government interest. Under California's law, the appeals court noted, "the only young adults who can buy semiautomatic rifles are some law enforcement officers and active-duty military servicemembers." In effect, the court said, that is "a blanket ban for everyone except police officers and servicemembers," and "we have never held that intermediate scrutiny applied to
a rule that banned the purchase of a major category of firearm."
Given the disadvantages of manually reloaded rifles and rimfire rifles (which fire ammunition with "poor stopping power"), California's law, combined with its preexisting ban on handgun sales to young adults, leaves them with shotguns as the only practical alternative for "self-defense in the home," the 9th Circuit said. "Even acknowledging that shotguns are effective weapons for self-defense in the home," it added, "shotguns are outmatched by semiautomatic rifles in some situations. Semiautomatic rifles are able to defeat modern body armor, have a much longer range than shotguns and are more effective in protecting roaming kids on large homesteads, are much more precise and capable at preventing collateral damage, and are typically easier for small young adults to use and handle."
Based on those considerations, the 9th Circuit concluded, California's law imposes "a severe burden on the core Second Amendment right of self-defense in the
home." That burden cannot be justified under strict scrutiny, it said, and fails even under the less demanding standard of intermediate scrutiny.
California argued that its age restriction was a "reasonable fit" in the context of promoting public safety because young people are disproportionately likely to commit violent crimes. It noted that "young adults are more than three times more likely to be arrested for homicide and manslaughter than other adults."
As Nelson pointed out, that comparison obscures the fact that "only 0.25% of young adults are arrested for violent crimes." That means "California's law sweeps in 400 times (100% divided by 0.25%) more young adults than would be ideal." Because "it regulates so much more conduct than necessary to achieve its goal," the appeals court said, "the law is unlikely to be a reasonable fit for California's objectives."
On the core question of whether the Second Amendment applies to young adults, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit reached similar conclusions in the 2021 case Hirschfeld v. ATF. The issue there was the federal law that forbids licensed dealers from selling handguns to buyers younger than 21. "Our nation's most cherished constitutional rights vest no later than 18," the 4th Circuit said. "And the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms is no different."
That decision was later vacated because the plaintiff turned 21, making the case moot. But the 4th Circuit's analysis is still relevant in assessing the constitutionality of new age restrictions like those favored by Hochul and Murphy.
"We first find that 18-year-olds possess Second Amendment rights," the 4th Circuit said. "They enjoy almost every other constitutional right, and they were required at the time of the Founding to serve in the militia and furnish their own weapons." To justify its restriction on handgun sales, Congress, like California's legislature, "used disproportionate crime rates to craft overinclusive laws that restrict the rights of overwhelmingly law-abiding citizens."
Furthermore, the 4th Circuit noted, "Congress focused on purchases from licensed dealers without establishing those dealers as the source of the guns 18- to 20-year-olds use to commit crimes." That would be hard to do, since research indicates that criminals typically obtain firearms from other sources. According to a 2019 report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, less than 8 percent of state and federal prisoners who used firearms reported buying them from gun stores.
"We hold that the challenged federal laws and regulations are unconstitutional under the Second Amendment," the appeals court said. "Despite the weighty interest in reducing crime and violence, we refuse to relegate either the Second Amendment or 18- to 20-year-olds to a second-class status."
No one doubts that constitutional guarantees like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, due process, and the ban on unreasonable searches and seizures apply to young adults. Furthermore, notwithstanding the alcohol restrictions that Hochul cites, 18-to-20-year-olds are treated as adults in most respects: They can vote, marry, join the military, sign contracts, and live independently. Banning firearm sales to young adults requires not only an exception to that general rule but also an exception to the way the Bill of Rights is typically applied.
The argument based on crime statistics could easily be used to justify setting the minimum purchase age even higher than 21. The national arrest rate for murder and manslaughter, for example, is a bit lower among 21-to-24-year-olds than it is among 18-to-20-year-olds but still nearly four times the rate for Americans 25 or older. The arrest rate for aggravated assault is even higher among 21-to-24-year-olds than it is among 18-to-20-year-olds.
Likewise with the argument that young adults are too immature and irresponsible to be trusted with guns. According to a 2013 article in the journal Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment, "The development and maturation of the prefrontal cortex occurs primarily during adolescence and is fully accomplished at the age of 25 years." If that is a decisive argument against allowing young adults to possess guns, the armed forces need to seriously reconsider their recruiting practices.
They will never do that, of course, and their current approach is consistent with the history that the 9th Circuit and the 4th Circuit emphasized in their decisions: For centuries, citizen militias and posses relied on young adults who were not only allowed but in many cases required to own guns for those purposes. That history, in turn, illuminates the original public understanding of the Second Amendment, which seems inconsistent with the age discrimination urged by politicians like Hochul and Murphy.
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Laws don’t stop criminals and crazy people.
Locked doors do.
There will be enough guns when there are no longer any democrats.
Actually generally in the scope of context...
Guns do...
And these are the same Progressives that want to lower the voting age to 16.
Hypocrites they are.
Ask the Democrats about raising the voting age to 21, since if young folks can’t be trusted with firearms they certainly shouldn’t be trusted with the franchise.
"The development and maturation of the prefrontal cortex occurs primarily during adolescence and is fully accomplished at the age of 25 years."
"Therefore, following the Science, ...."
Simple solution: Raise the legal adult age to 21 across the board: Voting, getting drafted, purchasing either a hand gun or long rifle, purchasing alcohol and cigarettes, getting married, signing a legally-binding contract for a loan without a co-signer, etc.
Add sex re-assignment and abortion, rent drive, rent or own an apartment or home just to get folks jimmies in a snarl. It's their own fault for being anti-science on yet another issue. The pre-frontal cortex development data has been known for quite some time, well before the left-leaning push to reduce voting age to 16 in some states.
The pre-frontal cortex development data has been known for quite some time, well before the left-leaning push to reduce voting age to 16 in some states.
It's also a red herring or false portrayal. Schizophrenics have been known for quite some time to have bilateral asymmetry within the pre-frontal cortex that persists well into and beyond their 30s. Moreover, the pre-frontal imbalance isn't the primary indicator for negative outcomes of schizophrenia, but the correlation to temporal-prefrontal and hippocampal asymmetry. An underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex is a sign of impulsive decision-making but the hippocampus is responsible for long-term memory encoding and underdevelopment or damage there can cause just as much, if not more, impulsiveness.
You can't force someone to bear a child, regardless of age.
If you don't want to bear a child, don't become pregnant; that is where you make your choice.
...and working in a paid job.
I agree. Considering 18-year-olds to be adults is a bad idea. The only reason it was changed was political—to help quiet the anti-Vietnam War movement.
Even better: if 18 year olds have to give up a Constitutional right, then they should give up all of them. No speech or assembly. It would at least make college campuses a bit more quiet and sane.
One can't give up first amendment rights because it's a restriction on government.
And I think both should be dropped to 16.
No.
Learn to live with disappointment.
I agree; No matter how long [WE] mobs want to postpone taking responsibility for one's self the more 'childish' society will be.
As-if that statement didn't already have a mountain of evidence behind it.
Or, how about mandatory retirement age for presbyophrenic politicians?
A majority of the country favors gun rights and the 2A. Dems are going to lose on this. People are buying more than ever. And it aint just R's. Blacks and hispanics love them some guns, and are buying in record numbers.
The elite white liberals are going to find out they are alone in wanting to take all power away from citizens and give it all to the govt. It's not lost on the lower classes that the people pushing for gun bans will happily walk around with a full security team and/or govt guns all while smiling and taking away YOUR right to arm yourself.
They need to get it into their head that this isnt their country. They have plenty of options on where to live if they want to give up the right to bear arms. I suggest they pack their bags and STFU.
Any philosophy that espouses the equality of all mankind inherently supports the concept of defense of the weak against the strong.
Ergo, any philosophy that does not support the defense of the weak against the strong does not espouse the equality of all mankind.
So which is it?
A gun in the hand is worth two in the Bush.
Your utopia as presented has a damned little to do w/ individual rights or civil liberties, and by its nature likely includes the means to erode either or both of the latter. Take your strawman, find a match, have an absolutist barbecue, dualist.
I’d offer a defense of my argument but your objection is utterly indecipherable. I do enjoy your enthusiasm and I’d wager we would agree more than not, assuming a complete thought were actually expressed. Thanks again and be well.
I read your comment as saying that if one believes in equality, then one must necessarily admit everyone has a right to self defense (and the tools for such). Thus if one doesn't believe everybody has a right to self defense, and the necessary tools, one cannot truly believe in equality.
So people who advocate gun control while simultaneously crowing about the need for equality are disingenuous/dishonest, which precisely describes the modern left.
Another way to put it: if you want equality, you must allow guns; if you will not allow guns, you don't really want equality.
I'm a bit surprised people are reading it differently.
It made sense to me as well.
And there has been no greater tool for crating actual equality in the ability to defend oneself than firearms.
Particularly for women. I’ve always wondered why support for 2A wasn’t a feminist issue.
"They need to get it into their head that this isnt their country. They have plenty of options on where to live if they want to give up the right to bear arms. I suggest they pack their bags and STFU."
Dunno if it wasn't said clearly enough. Maybe your utopia is in a European country with more strict gun laws. Nothing is stopping you from moving there.
Now get the fuck out, or shut the fuck up. Please and thank you.
Equality does not rely on (and often contradicts) freedom.
As for weak and strong, why the fuck do you think people invented guns?
God made Man, Samuel Colt made them equal.
It's a pretty old concept that dates back to before the founding of our country, that the only means to equality was through being armed.
Nope, PapaG thinks that women should just take the raping and assault.
PapaG is a horrible human being.
I didn't read it that way.
Seems to me he was saying gun rights go hand in hand with equality, and anyone who opposes gun rights consequently opposes equality no matter what they may profess/claim.
Hey, I can admit that maybe I was wrong and I just didn’t read it that way.
You guys have reading problems. He is in favor of self defense and is saying that if you dont support gun rights, you don't really support equality.
This teenage girl, pile on, bullying shit is retarded as fuck.
In Seattle they sure do……
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10709659/Seattle-police-IGNORING-reports-sexual-assault-woke-city-council-voted-defund-police.html
FTA:
“Stretched Seattle police are NOT investigating sex crimes amid staffing crisis: Woke city council voted to defund the 'devastated and demoralized' department for two years in a row
Seattle's city council voted in the fall of 2020 and 2021 to defund the police, and since then the force has remained chronically understaffed
The new mayor of Seattle, Bruce Harrell, was elected to improve the situation in the city and described the police force as 'devastated and demoralized'
Harrell has prioritized tackling the city's homeless problem - one of the worst in the nation - but the move has taken resources from other areas
The unit that investigates sexual assault has been reduced to four officers, since before Harrell took over, and is now struggling with the workload
In March the Seattle police detectives were not assigned a single adult sexual assault case, documents given to KUOW show
This year so far, only 1.6 percent of cases investigated by the sexual assault and child abuse unit have resulted in an arrest, down from 14 percent in 2019”
Equality of outcome is pretty much opposed to freedom. But moral equality of all people, in the sense that every individual has equal moral status and equal rights to life, liberty, property, etc. is essential to freedom.
Fallacy of affirming the consequent.
Have to wonder if that guy in Waukesha decided to plow through a school parade rather than a granny Christmas parade if we would hear the calls to ban red SUVS?
Especially given how many deaths SUVs cause.
Killings involving people intentionally using vehicles to kill are more rare than cases involving firearms. The total deaths from firearms and vehicles are the same. And we do have many safety regulations involving vehicles, but when stuff are proposed for firearms yall freak out.
Nope. More vehicle related deaths. Around 43,000 in 2021 vs. 19,000 firearms murders. Figures vary according to source, but that’s pretty much the average.
That is a bullshit comparison and you know it. This is exactly the problem with these arguments: if you want to defend 2A rights on their own merits go ahead (I believe in some of those arguments!), but stop lying about the real costs.
You can't compare specifically gun related "murders" with all car related fatalities. Either compare "car deaths" with "gun deaths" or "gun murders" with "car murders". The latter favors cars, the former guns. Cars are also much more useful than guns, objectively, for most Americans, but I digress.
Your entire argument is moot since no amendment grants the right to keep and operate automobiles, and certainly doesn't include the phrase shall not be infringed, unlike the 2A.
I dont think you bothered to read what my argument is, you just defaulted to your standard canned talking points. I'm not the one who introduced the comparison.
It's not canned. It's a fully thought out rebuttal that discredits any argument comparing automobile regulations and firearms. Anyone who makes the argument to comparing the two is creating a false dichotomy that doesn't require anything more than this simplistic takedown. False dichotomies don't require anything more than attacking the underlying difference.
If you want a more indepth argument, it's not conducive to start on a false premise.
starting with a false premise is literally their only weapon in a debate. It begin and ends (if you recognize it) exactly there.
Yes. Kind of my point about not trying to compromise with them. Anyone who bases and argument on a false premise, doesn't want to argue or debate in an honest manner, but only is willing to settle for total victory.
You’ve met Lying Jeffy?
Much to my chagrin and personal pain, I've met Jeffy.
I’ve come to enjoy tearing him apart.
Again, you still haven't read the argument. I'm not the one who made the comparison! Your responding to a point I didn't make! My argument was the comparison was stupid!
Thats what I mean by dumb canned talking points. You just responded with a prepared statement without actually reading the argument and who said what.
No, but you argued that we had regulations regarding automobiles and then stated we freak out when similar regulations were proposed for guns. So you were the one who introduced the false dichotomy between automobile regulations and gun regulations.
Like seriously man? The original commentator brought up the point about red SUVs. I think it is dumb to compare them ... you evidently agree, but because you just had to ignore that point and short circuit actually reading the argument ...
See my answer above that I just posted. You didn't say anything about the 2A, but did state we freak out whenever any gun regulations are proposed but that automobile regulations exist. Thus, you introduced the false dichotomy between these regulations. The original post was specifically about the futility of gun bans to stop mass murder, as vehicles and several other things, can be used just as effectively. You brought in regulations, which had very little to do with the original post. In Europe, where guns are much more restricted, automobiles are used far more often for mass murder. Thus, even your original post doesn't exactly contradict the point of the OP.
If you want an honest debate, don't use loaded language such as "y'all freak out". Which implies that our positions are irrational.
When you use such language you cannot expect people to enter into a nuanced, honest discussion. It's an ad hominem and ad hominem are a logical fallacy because they distract a debate from nuance and honest discussion.
You don’t want an in depth conversation though, so fuck off, slaver.
Autos are essential for 95% + Americans. AR-15 are essential for school shooters.
Wrong again Joe
Handguns are the most common weapon type used in mass shootings in the United States, with a total of 146 different handguns being used in 98 incidents between 1982 and May 2022. These figures are calculated from a total of 128 reported cases over this period, meaning handguns are involved in about 77 percent of mass shootings.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
Again, multiple people refuted this point a couple days ago when Joe brought it up, he even responded to those refutations. So, he isn't unaware that his point is false. Yet here he is again, using the same discredited talking point, probably copy and pasted from the other day (word for word the same). This is why he is a lying idiot. It's so disingenuous and completely par for the course for him. Either he is to stupid to incorporate new data into his debates or he is purposely ignoring data that contradicts his talking points.
Sandy Hook, Parkland, and Robb in Texas were all AR-15s.
Autos are essential for 95% + Americans. AR-15 are essential for school shooters.
And yet any black supremacist can walk into a hertz, rent an suv and plow it into a Christmas parade with only a drivers license.
Get fucked Joe.
So you don't know what "essential" means.
Oohhhh….. a faggoty new jingle from a faggoty progtard.
More lies from Joe Asshole.
Automobiles: may be purchased without government background check, even by felons.
Guns: Subject to 14,000 laws nationwide, most of which are varied state to state and sometimes city specific. Plenty of regulation: from place of use, type of gun, prohibited ammunition, prohibited accessories, sound regulations, lead abatement, product warnings etched on guns, zoning restrictions on shops, ranges, hunting, excise taxes, etc.
Joe Friday, go jump in a camp fire.
In addition to the raw stats quoted by Jerry B., there are 400-500 million private firearms in this country, and only 200 million private vehicles.
And further, long arms (rifles, shotguns) are used criminally only something like 3% of the time. So why do statists concentrate on banning rifles?
Sigh. Bacause the average firearm owner owns multiple weapons, the average car owner does not. Because owning many cars is a much more expensive hobby than owning many weapons. Obviously.
I'm not a huge proponent of gun control. But the first reaction of people to throw their head in the sand when these atrocities happen is insane. Guns promote increased suicides. Guns promote increased murders. There are many studies showing both points.
Gun regulation doesn't decrease mass murders. Sure, studies show that as well. Most gun regulations are ineffective. Also true! But the base, deaths increase with more gun availability, is true. Ignoring that fact does not make it less real.
You can accept those facts as the cost of living in a free society (I might agree with that point!) but ignoring it is dumb and a very frustrating aspect of this debate. The argument ought to be, accepting that deaths increase due to more guns, we are A. willing to pay those costs in defense of *insert something here* and B. we can mitigate those costs without limiting gun availability via X. None of which the NRA or anybody seems to advance, the main argument is to pound dust something something statists, something something leftists.
How dare people not want their kids to keep getting shot! Nah, it all must be evil leftists right?
Basically, yes. They conflate things. They use historically inaccurate myths. They misrepresent. They sensationalize. In essence they lie. The only response appropriate is to counter with facts and push back. It's not to surrender or compromise, as anyone who is this disingenuous will not settle for anything but total victory.
As for your assumption that gun deaths increase with gun access, Switzerland contradicts this, especially if we remove suicides, which make up the vast majority of gun deaths, even in the US. And no need to buy into their false premise to argue or debate them. Exposure of the false premise for what it is is enough. As for solutions, we do, and the NRA does, quite often. But we are either ignored or labeled irrational or fearful. Because they don't want an honest debate. They want to curtail our rights if not eliminate them completely.
In about a month 500 shooters will descend on ranges in the middle of the US, as they have for almost a century. The National Matches will be attended by mostly young males, and mostly competing with semi-automatic, magazine fed firearms they bring with them. They will live and compete in close proximity to each other. They will have hundreds of rounds of ammunition and dozens of magazines at their disposal. And yet. And yet, not one of these men will shoot each other. If the presence of guns means spontaneous or calculated murder, well, we would have hundreds of bodies all over Ohio and Indiana. And after the summer, they will have other gatherings by the thousands. And yet.....
NO, guns do not promote suicides. You cannot tell from a chart of the Australian suicide rate when guns were confiscated.
"Bacause the average firearm owner owns multiple weapons, the average car owner does not."
Ignoring what "bacause" is, my wife and I own four cars.
"accepting that deaths increase due to more guns"
Why would we accept something that is false.
"Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns"
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/data-reveals-murders-and-violent-crime-decrease-as-more-people-carry-guns/
there is no doubt that between 1980 and 2020 the number of firearms in America increased dramatically. Yet, both the number of firearm accidents and murders with firearms decreased.
Start with a false premise, wind up with invalid conclusions.
Actually there is a valid conclusion: more guns does not mean more gun deaths.
Correlation does not mean causation, but ANTI-correlation (as with this example) does refute causation.
"Guns promote increased suicides."
Stop trying to sell bullshit, claiming it's fresh clean cattle fodder.
If that was the case, and I'll use just one (1) example, JAPAN would not have a suicide rate that is higher than the U.S. rate.
There are other examples, but your mendacity doesn't deserve any more than minimal passing attention.
“But the first reaction of people to throw their head in the sand when these atrocities happen is insane.”
The only reaction when people start talking about violating our rights is: “go fuck yourself”.
So, go fuck yourself.
we are A. willing to pay those costs in defense of *insert something here* and B. we can mitigate those costs without limiting gun availability via X.
We can mitigate those costs by you going and fucking yourself until the rest of us decide you've done it enough to mitigate the cost of something without limiting the availability of something.
Don't like that solution? Then maybe address this "we" false premise. Just because somebody else wants to shoot themselves (or someone else) doesn't even remotely mean "we" need to or can do anything about it. You know somebody who wants to shoot themselves or someone else? Fine. Go do something about it. Fuck you for trying to implicate me. Substitute car, knife, rope, stove, opioids, tylenol, sleeping pills, bathtubs and toasters, razor blades, broken glass, etc., etc., etc. for guns and repeat.
“bathtubs and toasters”
A completely underutilized method of suicide.
- Hunter S. Thompson
Too slow and painful.
Spoken like someone who has no idea what regulations already exist for buying a firearm.
Which amendment protects the right to keep and operate automobiles with the phrase shall not be infringed again?
"...but when stuff are proposed for firearms yall freak out."
A-2. Stuff it up your ass, lefty shit.
And considering that there are nearly as many deaths caused by drunk drivers as by firearms murders, wonder if the gun grabbers are up for Prohibition 2.0?
Yes.
He actually ran over a bunch of kids, too. One of them died.
But they were white kids and the perp was black, so it was never going to be a story
Terrorist in Gaza Strip and Palestine have stopped targeting schools, because Israel armed their teachers and put in hardening tactics such as reinforced doors that are locked to the outside and closed circuit TVs. Thus making this far less attractive targets. They have instead resorted to using automobiles, and rockets. People walk around in Israel openly carrying, as they do in Switzerland. It has curtailed the number of random shootings and knife attacks that were once the hallmark of Palestinian terror organizations.
Most liberals are as reflexively against evil SUVs as they are against guns, and would like to ban them both.
But nothing like that happened in Waukesha, or it would have been all over the news, right?
You want to stop mass shootings not connected to gang activity the answer is to ban the use of antidepressants released onto the market after 1980 in under 25's and monitor their usage in the over 25 population so if they fall into the 3-6% of users who have adverse mania and homicidal ideation effects they are immediately taken off them.
We all know what the Democrats want - a total abolition of firearms. The question is, how much are the Republicans going to give them? Mid-terms are coming up and the GOP is getting nervous because it's starting yo look like they might win bigly. If they win bigly, people might begin to expect them to do something besides just flap their gums and that's the kiss of death for the GOP. The GOP needs to make some quick compromises on the 2A (just like they did a quick turn on shoveling big unaccountable bags of cash on Joe's money laundering oligarchs in Ukraine, the most corrupt shithole country in Europe) to depress Republican turnout.
Oh, they don't want a total abolition of firearms. Official Government People™ will continue to have ready access to them.
Perhaps the proper response is to use the 2A for its intended purpose - to defy tyranny.
They're already starting to overreach.
Biden goes on anti-gun tirade, suggests there’s ‘no rational basis’ for 9mm pistols
' A 9mm bullet blows the lung out of the body,' biden really is painfully stupid, which would be fine if he were not also a dishonest bullying loudmouth. And POTUS.
And yet note the lack of a dozen pearl-clutching Reason.com articles with breathless headlines like when they spent a week lying about Donald Trump telling people to drink bleach to cure COVID.
Reason is as corrupt as DC
Who's got time or money to clutch pearls with inflation being what it is and the POTUS committing one classical gaffe after another?
Classical gaffe is one of my favorite guitar pieces.
Haha!! Good one!!
Link to even one, please…
"Biden goes on anti-gun tirade, suggests there’s ‘no rational basis’ for 9mm pistols."
Biden must REALLY come unglued when he hears about my 45 auto. For that matter, he might just stroke out if he ever heard about an Automag!
Not only did he say this, he also repeated again the historically inaccurate statement that cannons weren't allowed for civilian ownership at the time of the Constitution. Which many have refuted multiple times.
Yep. I don't know HOW many times I have heard that misstatement.
*lie
ABC news feed this afternoon has him inveighing against "high caliber guns", obviously ignorant of what that might mean.
just wait til he hears about 10mm. its got a whole extra mm!
I've used that line with women and they generally aren't impressed.
How about we just ban democrats from buying guns and cars?
How about we just ban people who do not pay net taxes from voting?
"No representation without taxation!"
This!!!
How about we just ban democrats.
I didn't even notice the pic.
FUCK YOU, PHIL MURPHY.
Fuck Phil Murphy. And that Brandon dude.
Given that democrats insist that only the militia should have firearms, and that militia was understood at the signing of the Constitution/Bill of Rights to include all able bodied men over the age of 18, they should be demanding that everyone actually has an AR-15 for defense of the nation.
Not only were they (and still are under federal law) part of the militia they were required to provide their own arms, suitable for militia usage. By the understanding of the militia acts of 1795 and 1863 (both of which are still law, thus selective service) not only do you have the right to bear arms, you are required to possess arms suitable for military usage. Thus, we should be more like Switzerland and Israel.
they should be demanding that everyone actually has an AR-15 for defense of the nation.
The original version of the 2A (introduced in the House) was:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.
That was amended and approved by the House to:
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
Neither side of partisans now has the slightest fucking clue or interest in the 2A as it was understood then. Because we are perfectly content with a standing army and a professionalized police force and professionalized bureaucrats - or a bunch of hopped-up Rambos who think the 2A is what enforces nullification by every individual - rather than a citizen militia.
JFree are you a male between 18-45? If so, by the militia act of 1795 (written and passed by the many of the very people who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights) you are in the militia and must provide your own weapons if called up. And no this isn't moot because this is still the law of the land, and the basis of selective service.
Jfree isn't here to add to the discussion, just to get his Dunning-Kruger on
I do know that. I also think the standing army should mostly be scrapped and militia service should be restored again as imo the Constitution turns all that into an enumerated obligation of the federal government.
Though militia service should be more like Switzerland than 1789US - two to three years of part-time training (starting at age 16 here though) followed by active reserves for a few years followed by general reserves. When covid first happened, I said mustering the militia should have been the PRIMARY action re how to deal with any emergency or public health stuff. And I wouldn't have any problem re those aforementioned versions of the 2A being interpreted re gun regulation - conscientious objecting to militia service also means conscientious objecting to owning a gun yourself.
"...When covid first happened, I said mustering the militia should have been the PRIMARY action re how to deal with any emergency or public health stuff..."
Sorta thought you'd found the lowest level of stupid already, but you keep proving me wrong.
'Put that mask on or I'll shoot!', right?
Jfree - sigh*
If you need someone who can shoot - I don't care much for guns, but I can hit a 50-cent piece from 300 yards with a Remington .270 without a problem.
James Monroe revised those versions the version we have is the ratified version so those previous ones are nothing but historical sidenotes.
Monroe's revision was due to Elbridge Gerry's concern that the phrase of 'but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms. could be misconstrued. “I am apprehensive, Sir, that this clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the Constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms...,"
And from your other commentary, Gerry was right.
James Madison not Monroe. Damn
Madison was in the House at that time. It is the Senate that changed the second version above to the version we know now. Partially because of what you say but also because
a)Southerners did not want militia defined so broadly and had no interest in 'conscientious objection' as an exemption because militias there were mostly mustered as runaway slave patrols.
b) everyone outside PA had questions about loyalty of the mostly pacifist Germans
c) the main concern about the feds undermining militia in future was exactly what happened - fail to organize, equip, train militia
Meanwhile, the drunken jokerface Nancy Pelosi's drunk husband just got busted for DUI, ROFLMAO.
The most popular sporting rifles sold in the pre World War 2 era were semi-automatic rifles, many with detachable magazines. Bolt action rifles were considered only suitable for military usage. Semi-automatics were not considered proper for military use. It was until the 1920s that bolt action rifles eventually started to replace semi-automatic rifles as the gun of choice for civilian hunters. This was only due to the US Government selling millions of surplus Springfield M1903 rifles,Lee Enfield in both .30-06 and .303 British, and Mauser K-98. Most civilian gun manufacturers didn't even offer bolt action rifles until the 1930s, once the Springfield proved so popular with hunters in the .30-06 Springfield/Government. In fact, most modern bolt action rifles are direct descendants of the Mauser bolt, which was the foundation of all three rifles listed. Most military planners still didn't consider semi-automatics suitable for military use until the M-1 proved successful in WW2. Even then, most didn't convert to semi-automatic or select fire until the mid 1950s. So, the talking point, that semi-automatic rifles were designed for warfare is completely historically incorrect. Actually, the most common sporting rifle sold today, bolt action were actually the rifles originally designed for military use. They have a far longer history and tradition as a weapon of war than semi-automatic rifles.
The first military bolt action rifles were introduced during the mid 19th century and continued as a front line weapon until the mid 20th century, and continue in most countries inventory for specialized missions, such as sniper and counter sniper missions, to this day. We are only slowly replacing bolt action rifles in these missions with semi-automatic rifles as weapons technology has made semi-automatic rifles almost as dependable and accurate as bolt action rifles recently.
Also, the 1903 Springfield remained the main issued rifle for many units until 1943, even after the M-1 was adopted in 1936. The Marines who invaded Guadalcanal were all issued 1903 Springfields not M-1. Several of the units in operation torch were armed with 1903s as well. And almost all units assigned for home protection remained armed with 1903s throughout the war.
I really enjoy your posts soldier, very informative.
The 2A is a moot right based on an archaic non-existent militia as it was defined in the Constitution.
"Clauses 15 and 16. The Militia
Clause 15
Clause 15. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.
Clause 16
Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
None of us are in THAT militia, never have been, and never will be, nor were our fathers, grandfathers, etc. There is no such militia, so the "right" is moot and should be amended or ignored.
You've already been proven wrong on this under the militia acts which are still law. Don't know why you copy and pasted this nonsense again after you've already have had it reputed multiple times. This is why everyone calls you an idiot. You recycle the same argument even after having it refuted multiple times.
And before you try selectively quoting the militia act of 1795, I will refer you to the part of the act that specifically refers to who is in the militia, which were all males 18-45 years of age, who provided their own weapons. You selective quoting of the law is complete horseshit, and ignores who the law applied to. All males 18-45 were required to serve in the militia, but it didn't limit militia service to that age group only, but required service specifically of that age group. All subsequent militia acts didn't ever renounce this act but simply amended it, but didn't change who were required to serve in the militia, though it did expand that to include non-whites in 1863.
As noted above the "militia' mentioned in the constitution - not just in the 2A but in the clauses concerning it's arming, organization, and discipline does not exist. If Soldier thinks it does, perhaps he can give us their phone number or email address. To quote him :
"All males 18-45 were required to serve in the militia...".
"Were required", not "are required", so even soldier acknowledges the fact that there is no longer any militia as defined in the constitution and hasn't been for very long time.
The militia of the constitution ..... you know, where the 2A is located..... is obsolete, archaic, it is no more, it is an ex-militia, and therefore the right on which that institution is based is moot.
Fuck off, slaver.
Yeah, that's an intelligent comment.
It’s apt.
Tell us what and where the militia of the constitution is R Mac. You're a smart guy, right?
Are you in it? No anyone who is, was, even if 100 years ago?
You seem very confused by this entire topic.
“No anyone who is, was, even if 100 years ago?”
I mean, wtf does this even mean? Do you need to clean the spittle off your keyboard?
You asked what the militia is. You get told, then you claim well, that was 1795 so it no longer applied, which is goal post shifting. Especially as the law is still in force and was last updated in 1903, is still the basis by which our military and all it's branches are operating under, and by which selective service operates under. Like you were told when you brought up the same thing just a couple days ago. We already covered this with you multiple times. For you to imply people aren't answering your questions is complete and utter bullshit, as we've covered this with you multiple times in the past week. And you want to know why people insult you instead of debating you, this is why. Because it is completely dishonest and disingenuous. It allows you to play the victim, when in fact, you are the aggressor and our response is strictly due to your dishonesty. Or inability to process and remember information we've already given you multiple times.
Sorry soldier, the Selective Service is not for the militia.
You're still not answering the question and one must conclude because you don't have an answer. In the interests of the discussion I won't call you dishonest.
Faggot, Soldier straightened you out. Instead of whining and bitching, you should be thanking him for his informative generosity. Which is far better than you deserve.
Now fuck off.
It’s all the response you deserve.
Hey, Joe. Even if you scrap the 2A, you still have the Roe privacy penumbra problem. The right to one's bodily integrity. If a woman has (or used to have) a right to the means to protect her body from a 2 ounce fetus, then by all logic, she has a civil right to the means to protect her body from a 200 lb rapist. Or ten of the them. Get your male government dirty hands off my bodily security. What gun I have is between me and my range officer.
10 USC CHAPTER 12, SECTION 248.
Fuck, I was wrong, it was updated as recently as 2016, so I thought 1903 was the last update. But, turns out it was updated in 2016, and now includes all males and females ages 17-45, not just males 18-45. So, like to see how Joe squirrels out of that one.
Not that it matters, as the 2A wasn't about militias, as is clear from the writings of the people who wrote it. And as Heller and McDonald both made clear. The militia clause was an exemplary clause not a definitive clause. The definitive clause was the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If it were about militia, then there would be no need to include the phrase the rights of the people, instead it would read the rights of the state/militia...
Further, the militia act is completely in line with British common law of the time, and actually dates back to the Anglo-Saxon conquest, in which the militia, then termed the fyrd, were an armed populace that was called out in time of war. They provided their own weapons and armor. Their lords, or housecarls, provided provisions. So, the idea of an armed populace, serving in time of need dates back to 6th century CE England (actually predates even that, as the Celts practiced a similar tradition, as did the Germanic tribes of Northern and Central Europe).
Standing armies are actually a fairly new concept, as are standing police forces. The first modern police force didn't come into existence until after the American Revolution in England, and not until the 1820s in the US. Before that, you could be appointed as a marshal of the court, and given the power to arrest and detain a criminal, but you provided your own weapons and transportation and it was only good as long as the warrant was in force.
The first standing English Army wasn't formed until King Henry the VIII reign. And even that force was largely outnumbered and of little importance until after Elizabeth I reign. It wasn't until the early 18th century that the professional English Army really took form. And even during the French-Indian War and American Revolution, the bulk of British Forces serving in the Americas were drawn from local militia (British and Hessian Forces never made up more than about a third of British strength during the American Revolution). Even many 'regular' British Forces were actually privately raised and trained during the Napoleonic Wars and the Crimean War, as were vast numbers of American forces all the way up to the Spanish-American War. The British wars of conquest in India were largely fought by private soldiers belonging to the East India Company, backed by a small cadre of British Regulars. In fact, we've never officially banned the creation of privately funded and armed military forces in the US. TDR tried to raise a force during World War 1, but Wilson refused to take it into federal service, not because it was illegal, but because he didn't want to give TDR the publicity and a way to run against him or his successor in 1920. We hired multiple military contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan, these were mostly American citizens, armed with privately purchased weapons, used as an adjunct to our military forces. They were in the tradition of private militias providing their own weapons, consistent with a tradition that dates back to the 6th century CE and earlier.
Sodlier, the word militia appears in the Constitution several times, not just once, and it is clearly defined. That institution has not existed for over 100 years - maybe you can tell us when it was.
Thanks for the history lesson, but none of that fits the clear definition of the militia noted in the Constitution. The radical judges who wrote Heller were legislating from the bench and did not apply original intent, which begins with the fucking words and definitions in the Constitution.
faggot, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
"Standing armies are actually a fairly new concept"
Yep.
One of the reasons some forces became dominant in their times (Spartans and late Republic Romans come to mind) was because they were essentially professional armies facing part timers.
When does it train soldier, who's the commander, when was it last used, is Congress arming and discipling it?
Faggot, fuck off.
Still left in the age discrimination? Bleah.
That's about the Federal Reserve - no militia.
Above to Unicorn
No it's not, idiot. Look again.
Because Joe Asshole lies; it's what Joe Asshole does.
Insult, do not engage, Joe Asshole. It's what Joe Asshole deserves.
I'm not refuting Joe for Joe's sake. He's a lost cause, incapable of self reflection necessary for gaining new knowledge and incorporating it into his debate points, but solely for other readers who may not be familiar with Joe's tactics or the falsities of his arguments.
Valid point; take one for the team.
Not me; Joe, like turd, gets the canned comment regarding his total lack of familiarity regarding anything like honesty.
A lot of folk miss that concept on engaging troll posters on the 'net. It is not necessary, and rarely productive, to try to change or educate ~them~. We do it for the benefit of the other readers who may not be as aware of the issues. I've seen a lot of fence-sitters become much more aware of the facts and reasons behind a lot of situations when someone takes the time and effort to post in response to folk such as Joe.
"Sevo", we know you're soldier.
Literally no one except you thinks that.
Faggot, he’s obviously not.
I think that qualifies him as 'crackpot'.
I thought that was thing Hunter Biden was trying to cook.
well, you and your kind can propose a constitutional amendment whenever you please. Until then, the 2A stands.
And you can fuck right off
Speaking of false premises and Joe Friday shows up with copy and paste that we've already refuted multiple times and he wonders why I call him a lying idiot.
"None of us are in THAT militia, never have been, and never will be, nor were our fathers, grandfathers, etc. There is no such militia, so the "right" is moot and should be amended or ignored."
Actually, you are mistaken. When the National Guard under the Dick Act was formed (1903) it was described, officially, as the organized militia, as opposed to the rest of the menfolk, who remained part of the unorganized militia. Note, that if the States had actually taken some time to maintain a "well-regulated militia," the Dick Act would perhaps would have not been necessary.
The fact is, if you are a male meeting the age criteria, the feds can legally force you to bear arms, even today.
The Dick Act was an amendment of the 1795 militia act and was not a replacement but a further clarification of that act. As was the 1863 militia act. None of these acts ever replaced the militia act of 1795. The basic premise of the militia act of 1795 is still the law of the land. I'm betting Joe didn't even come up with this argument himself but copied it from someone else. Since he used the same argument three days ago, word for word, and was refuted using almost the same arguments you and I offered today on that day as well. Since he responded to those arguments, one can only conclude Joe is being untruthful or Joe is incapable of modifying arguments when presented with new data. Or possibly both.
Normally I don't call people names, without trying to enter into first an honest discussion, but this is Joe's MO on every single subject, that I've concluded Joe is unworthy of honest debate. I only refute his points (when I do, generally I mute him) for the benefit of others, who may not be aware of Joe's dishonesty.
soldier again relies on personal insults and claims he is only interested in honest discussion. Apparently that means one that will end with his debate opponent surrendering and declaring soldier correct on all points. Either that or soldier implies that he sometimes does that and that unlike most posters here, I am particularly unwilling to surrender a point.
Note I have made my points without personal attacks. I don't need to, though I will get in the that spirit of things if we go along long enough and I can throw elbows and insult with the best of them.
You get personal insults because you’re an asshole.
I gave facts, multiple facts. The insult was only part of my response but you ignore the facts, the very same facts you were told just a couple a days ago when you posted the exact same copy and paste comment, by me and multiple other posters. That is why you get insults. You post the same shit over and over, and people give you the same response over and over, and you then attack them. Then cry when they insult you back. You've done this for the entire year you've been posting here. So, now I don't even bother not insulting you. I've tried multiple times to have an honest discussion with you, when you first started posting. You resorted to insults first. So, now I just preemptively insult you, while also offering paragraphs worth of refuting evidence that you always ignore.
soldier, your posting the same facts today and while they are facts, they don't apply to the militia of the constitution which does not exist and has not for a very long time.
By the way, the reason it hasn't may have had to do with Washington's experience with militias in the Revolutionary War.
"In a letter to his nephew, Lund Washington, plantation manager of Mount Vernon, General George Washington writes on September 30, 1776, of his displeasure with the undisciplined conduct and poor battlefield performance of the American militia. Washington blamed the Patriot reliance on the militia as the chief root of his problems in the devastating loss of Long Island and Manhattan to the British.
In his letter, Washington wrote, “I am wearied to death all day with a variety of perplexing circumstances, disturbed at the conduct of the militia, whose behavior and want of discipline has done great injury to the other troops, who never had officers, except in a few instances, worth the bread they eat.” Washington added, “In confidence I tell you that I never was in such an unhappy, divided state since I was born.”"
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-blames-militia-for-problems
The militia act of 1792 was passed specifically because the regular US Army got its butt whipped in the Battle of the Wabash. Congress actually had to wait for the 2A to be ratified to pass it
"The Dick Act was an amendment of the 1795 militia act and was not a replacement but a further clarification of that act. As was the 1863 militia act."
Yes, I recognize that. I was just refuting, well, you know...
I was adding to your point instead of trying to refute it.
And I recognize, that, too.
PS "Joe" is not convinced by your pretending that bills passed in 1795 about an archaic institution - there is no militia organized, armed, and disciplined by the Congress - somehow apply. It doesn't exist. If it does, where is it and name someone in it.
The law still applies as you have been informed multiple times, it was last updated in 1903, and is also the basis of the selective service act, as we've already told you.
Jefferson, that's not right.
"Congress has organized the National Guard under its power to "raise and support armies" and not its power to "Provide for organizing, arming and disciplining the Militia".[12]
H.R. Report No. 141, 73rd Cong. 1st session at 2-5 (1933)
"[The National Guard] was officially created under Congress's Article 1 Section 8 ability to 'raise and support armies'.[2] All members of the National Guard are also members of the organized militia of the United States as defined by 10 U.S.C. § 246."
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
"Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults."
I have thought of that, but I get a good laugh actually responding. Or perhaps I am just a bit of a masochist.... nope.. it's all about a good laugh.
One hopes intelligent posters enjoy back and forth with those they disagree with. Those like sevo and soldier (same guy) can of course talk to themselves or others who don't challenge them. They're cowards.
You’re not an intelligent poster though.
If you think Sevo and Soldier are the same person you’re even dumber than I thought. And I thought you were plenty dumb.
OK R Mac, apparently you fashion yourself intelligent. Can you tell us the phone number, email address, contact person for the militia of the constitution? Soldier doesn't seem to have it.
If that sounded like an intelligent comment in your head, you should hit it against the wall. Repeatedly.
Already been answered dipshit. Every male 18-45 is required to serve in the militia, anyone else who is a citizen can voluntarily serve. Or are you so stupid that you require me to spell it out? BTW, I live in Montana, as I've stated multiple times, Sevo, if I remember right, lives in California. He's also stated that. Trying the sock argument was completely stupid, as I've been posting on here since 2001, and people are well aware of who I am. Fuck, you are stupid.
soldier, as you have speculated that I was someone's sock puppet - many have here - I thought this was maybe common practice on this board and that's why you would promote such an idiotic and irrelevant falsehood.
I don't really care who you and Sevo are. Maybe you're married. WGAF
Faggot, you’re wrong about everything.
Zzz...
You’re an idiot like Pedo Jeffy. It’s his bullshit that we have an open border because we supposedly regulate naturalization but not immigration. He’s wrong, as so are you. So quit shitposting this moronic crap.
Seriously, you are one stupid, stupid fucker
Hahahahahahahahaha
Goddamn son, just take the L and go home.
I’m sorry, are you a Supreme Court?
Joe Friday, go jump down a well.
A compelling argument R. At least as good as soldier's. Give me some time to consider a response.
The right is not moot merely because the govt deliberately fails (by changing the definition of .ilitia and failing to fulfill their enumerated obligation) to render the right valid.
Even without the 2A, the federal government lacks the enumerated power to restrict gun ownership.
The US is a nation of limited, enumerated government powers, not of limited rights granted by the government.
I dont mean to be morbid here, but the proposed "assault bans" are of course going to be ineffective because you can honestly kill someone with almost anything.
Not only would a person ready to do this sort of thing be able to attain the means to do so, regardless of your bans, but frankly they could do it with so much less than people are even considering banning.
How many people did the Charleston shooter kill with a garden variety handgun?
How many people did the Waukesha DRIVER kill with no handguns involved, at all?
A person who practiced for more than a day could frankly do the same with a wide variety of available weapons. Someone that wanted to could do it with a fucking old school lever action rifle.
And thats not even considering, someone fucked up enough to do this can certainly get an "AR 15!!!" very easily, even after you "ban" it.
The horse is out of the barn. And also, most Americans want guns. You can take that fact in or not, but its the truth. So you can also adapt to the current situation, or live in an imaginary world where you are banning every handgun out there. And that probably has a maybe 15% approval rating.
Get fucked, shitlibs. This is something the people have no appetite for. Regardless of your bullshit, of course.
A pump or semi-automatic shotgun would be very effective for mass shootings. The Columbine killers actually planned on blowing everyone up, which would have caused far more casualties,but the detonator failed. Only then did they start shooting people. You can build very effective bombs with propane tanks, common fertilizers, gasoline, pressure cookers etc. Would we be talking regulating those things if they had wired their detonators a little more effectively?
The fact is mass shooters crave notoriety according to almost every psychological study of them conducted. That's why the choose certain weapons, because they know the media and politicians will sensationalize it for weeks. That's why they choose the targets they do. Want media attention, shoot up a bunch of kids, or people shopping. It's a lot like terrorists. They want to inflict as much terror as possible.
Imagine having to do a background check to buy or fill your propane tank for your memorial day grilling? Or fertilizer for your garden? Or your Instapot? Or every time you buy gas?
'If it saves just one life...'
Traveling in Western China, you must exit the highway every 50Km into a 'plaza', stop and have your papers inspected.
Wanna live in a place like that? Go ahead; not me.
Yeah. I can see some measures as being okay. Locked entrances with close circuit TVs in schools, reinforced doors. Because they serve other purposes and are things I do at home too (at night anyhow). Armed guards I think are a step to far, but I'm willing to debate that. Allowing teachers to be armed, I actually favor, but don't favor forcing teachers to be armed. But locking, reinforced doors would go a long ways to making school shootings such as these much more difficult and less costly.
It should be just as difficult to get into a school as it is a jewelry store in a big city.
Locked school doors are a defensive measure public schools owe the taxpayers. Those schools require those kids to be there as victims for murderers like this? Those schools should take at least minimal defensive measures such as this. Further, the staff must understand that 'just propping it open for a minute' is a termination offense; you do NOT leave your seatbelt off to go the corner market, simply because you need to practice safety.
Take flying lessons, or run an auto racing team; those checklists are NOT optional.
Agreed on teachers carrying and make sure the front door states "This is NOT a gun-free area"
No doubt locks can't shot off Sevo and of course most teachers want to carry.
What could go wrong?
“locks can't shot off Sevo”
Be more retarded.
Joe Asshole lies but yet again.
Eat shit and die, Joe Asshole.
Faggot, you’re a good example of why we need to remove democrats.
Publicity no doubt contributes to more mass shootings. For the "we must do all we can" crowd, including most liberal media, perhaps a ban on reporting?
Yeah, I can see the outcries if anyone suggested that. This despite multiple studies finding that publicity tends to fuel more of these attacks, for the immediate time after an attack. They almost always run in spurts. They aren't common, as some like to try and mislead people to believe. They only occupy the zeitgeist for weeks because of their rarity.
"Common" is a relative term. Compared to anywhere else in the world, they are very "common" here.
Nope.
Joe Asshole adds more lies. Joe Asshole is not capable of doing otherwise.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; insult the steaming pile of lefty shit.
Eat shit and die, Joe Asshole.
Not even close. Our media likes to imply that, but it's false. If you bothered to do some research, you would find that out. These happen even in countries that gun ownership is basically banned. And they use other methods, automobiles are very popular in France.
Automobiles are also very popular in Israel. And they have an extremely high number of civilian gun ownership. But they also carry and have taken common sense mitigation tactics that Joe just dismissed above, which has almost entirely ended attacks by terrorist and others against their schools, when this was once a favored target of terrorists. And like I said in another post, those Israelis openly carrying aren't carrying cosplay AR-15s those are the real deal Galil assault rifles and M-4 assault rifles. The kind that are capable of automatic fire.
It's because the Jews already saw what happens when you give up your guns to the government and they refuse to let it happen again.
"Guns are now the leading cause of death among young people in the U.S.
For decades, car crashes were the leading cause of death for Americans ages 1 to 19. But the gap between car crash deaths and firearms deaths began to steadily narrow in recent years. In 2020, gun violence overtook car accidents to become the No. 1 cause of death for U.S. children and adolescents.
Researchers at the University of Michigan found that while firearm-related deaths overall increased 13.5% between 2019 and 2020, among children and adolescents they surged a staggering 30%.
For years, researchers at the University of San Francisco and Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have compared the rates of firearm deaths in the U.S. and other populous, high-income countries — mostly nations in Europe.
Their most recent study, which looks at data from 2015, finds that the U.S. accounts for the vast majority of firearm deaths among children. Across the 29 countries in the study, the U.S. accounted for almost 97% of the firearm deaths among children 4 years old or younger, and 92% of firearm deaths for those between the ages of 5 and 14.
And over time, the U.S. is accounting for an ever-larger share of people killed by guns in these countries. The U.S. firearm death rate increased nearly 10% between 2003 and 2015, even as it fell in other high-income countries.
Gun violence deaths: how the U.S. compares with the rest of the world
Compared to countries of all sizes and incomes, the firearm-related death rate in the U.S. ranks 32nd in the world, according to a study by the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. (Topping that list, which uses data from 2019, were El Salvador, Venezuela and Guatemala.) When the total number of firearm deaths are counted, the U.S. ranks second in the world, after only Brazil, according to a study using data from 2016...."
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/28/1101307932/texas-shooting-uvalde-gun-violence-children-teenagers
Lying Joe is calling gangbangers up to 24 years old "children".
"I dont mean to be morbid here, but the proposed "assault bans" are of course going to be ineffective because you can honestly kill someone with almost anything..."
Got a news feed yesterday where a Trump offspring commented regarding the Uvalde murderer that he 'could have killed those people with a baseball bat'.
Didn't seem to generate a lot of outrage; given the incompetence of the cops, he could have.
Given the amount of time the murderer had before the BP took him out, after he offed the teachers, he likely could have killed the kids with his bare hands.
The Brits are way ahead of you with efforts to ban anything that might be an effective weapon, including pointy knives. I imagine that by the time that logical runs its course, Brits will have legal rights to only paper clothing and cold noodles.
How many people were killed in the Oklahoma City bombing using fertilizer and diesel fuel?
https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1531392309069086720?t=DuXtzgC89_gYMfHA5JeSSQ&s=19
This is incredible. Hard to believe we have gotten here so rapidly. This is what I was talking about when I said it looks like endgame dynamics, @elonmusk.
"@AmandaLeftCoast
Washing State Public Health officers can detain you at their “sole discretion” after they made “reasonable efforts” to get you to “comply with request for vaccination.” Which makes their off-the-rails tweets especially disturbing.
[Link]"
Here's the original link to the legislation, in case someone thinks this is a breathless retweet of a fevered Fox News host.
Good luck up there
By contrast, proposals to raise the minimum purchase age for long guns at least have something to do with the Buffalo and Uvalde attacks, since both shooters were 18 years old. But it is hard to see how that policy can be reconciled with the Second Amendment unless you assume that 18-to-20-year-olds, unlike older adults, do not have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Two federal appeals courts recently rejected that proposition, citing a long tradition of gun ownership by young adults.
I'm going to break with my fellow libertarian comrades in arms here.
I don't have a problem with this.
Our education system is wrecking the youngest generation(s) and until they can show a certain amount of humility, lack of entitlement etc, I don't think they should be able to purchase a firearm or even get a driver's license. Typically (with exceptions) a psychotic break tends to happen between the ages of 18-25. It is within this age cohort that we see the most whiny, sniveling, entitled, unearned self-esteem having group in the solar system.
So fuck 'em, no guns for you. Oh, and raise the voting age along with it, while you're at it. And put a breathalyzer in Mr. Pelosi's car, too. If I think of anything else to add to my list, I'll post it here.
Better solution: send all those 18-25 (16-30?) away on missions, crusades, vision quests, or some other physically and maturity-challenging "adventures" with some hardship and danger. Let them rejoin the rest of us when they are ready to be responsible, self-supporting, and boring.
So, how about not letting folks vote until they're 21?
https://twitter.com/TrueNorthCentre/status/1531379547521929218?t=xnb5Moegq6B7xqlpL8AMAw&s=19
BREAKING: Justin Trudeau announces a national freeze on handgun ownership. Acccording to Trudeau, it is now illegal to buy, sell, transfer or import handguns in Canada.
[Link]
No one gives a shit about Canada, it's just a bunch of whiny racist working class trucker. Fuck that country. Don't like it, build your own Canada.
https://twitter.com/HarrisonKrank/status/1531421473251926016?t=2KZq29oANg8Rsa2LsWwfWw&s=19
Canada is nothing more than the colonies that were too afraid to revolt. They have no clue how to stand up against tyranny.
Some of us do.
My one Scot grandparent (descended from William Wallace no less) came via Canada. It grieves me to see how stupid they've become up North.
Above, I made the comparison of the motives of mass shooters to terrorists. They both choose soft targets that will receive maximum publicity while inflicting terror and other emotional responses from the public. Terrorist do this supposedly to achieve a political goal. Mass murderers do this to achieve notoriety. The tactics to combat this should thus be the same. Israel, by far, deals with terrorists more often than any other society. We can learn from them. In the military we were taught the best approach to combat terrorists was to not be a soft target. Thus, if we want to end school shootings the best approach would be to harden schools. Locking doors, One way locked entrances. Closed circuit TVs. Etc. Most schools already have these measures in place, because they are effective in stopping these kinds of crimes and others, i.e. child abductions. Armed teachers and resource officers are something that can be debated. But concealed and or open carry are also deterrents in public (visit Israel, people are walking around with pistols and M-4s slung over their shoulders in public, in civilian clothes, openly carried. The terrorist have changed tactics to using crude rockets and automobiles as their preferred attacks, which tend to be less effective. Switzerland also has very few attacks like this, but people go openly armed quite often.
We don't need to surround our schools with concintina wire and walls, but reinforcing doors, having entrances locked from the outside with closed circuit TV, that people have to be buzzed in. Doors that can be automatically locked from a central point, would be far more effective than any gun control law.
RE: terrorists seeking max publicity. I am sure The NY Times would embrace suspending the 1st Amendment as much as the 2nd, right?
Oh, I am sure.
The NYTs exists because of the 1st amendment you idiots and Trump lobbies non-stop to make them subject to law suits for slander.
Do you even read what you post?
Faggot, it exists because of your fellow travelers. They don’t care about freedom of speech. Just freedom of THEIR speech.
Schools are targets because they are "gun free zones" which translates to "target rich environment."
Getting rid of "gun free zones" doesn't require anyone to be armed. It doesn't mean teachers should be armed. It doesn't mean every dad at the game should be packing.
It means that instead of being absolutely positive that everyone who follows the rules will be unarmed... it just means that being armed isn't against the rules.
Someone here could fight back.
Fuck that. Shooter chooses a different target.
Yeah. That's the point of concealed carry. Whereas open carry completely removes the mystery. Both are deterrence.
In Israel and Switzerland they don't even try to hide it. They are packing real assault rifles in public, not semi-automatic rifles that cosplay as assault rifles.
Geez soldier, that's brilliant - lock the doors! No way you could shoot those off or otherwise break in. Closed circuit TV! Yeah, those cameras are indestructible too.
I mean what could go wrong with the idea of just defending the schools. If only Texas had thought of that, but they're a bunch of sissy bed wetting freaks run by woke women.
Faggot, learn your place.
"Blaming guns for a shooting is like giving credit to the pencil for acing a test."
Or failing it...
^EXACTLY!!! Well said...
Wait, did the 9th circuit actually get a gun decision right?
It was a 3 judge panel.
In the 9th Circus case, usually a mere preliminary hearing to weed out those who might not be financially well off enough to pay for the additional billable hours needed for the standard operational en banc review.
And, as usual in the gun hating 'full bench', there's no doubt that if California slips up and doesn't ask for it, the court itself will sua sponte .
"sua sponte"
Translation please, for those of us who haven't bothered wasting years to learn jargon.
Without being asked, on their own initiative.
THX
GIYF.
Jeez...
Satisfying ratio:
https://twitter.com/Icha20211/status/1531322148362526721?t=d5iKyG7W6F4p0siSUGww7A&s=19
Jake, a gun owner.. He enjoyed shooting his AR15 for years. A believer in the 2nd amendment. A believer that he nor any other civilian should own an AR15. As he listens to me read the names of the Uvalde victims on my podcast destroys his gun as instructed by his local police.
[Video]
I'm sure someone committed suicide after Trump won the 2016 election. Did all Democrats?
(Not that I'd oppose that. Suicide is everyone's choice)
He's destroying his AR because someone else, somewhere else, murdered a bunch of kids?
He's lucky that rape hasn't been making the headlines...
Or he destroyed _that_ long ago...
Where is the link to the 9th circuit decision?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ninth-circuit-overturns-california-ban-on-selling-semiautomatic-rifles-to-people-under-21/ar-AAXa5zj#:~:text=On%20Wednesday%2C%20the%20Ninth%20U.S.%20Circuit%20Court%20of,law%20did%20not%20hamper%20the%20right%20of%20self-defense.
The idea that the 2A gives a very strong right for almost anyone to have almost any gun they want and "oh well many people die there is nothing we can do" is a lie created by sick fuck Republicans.
A guy I know with a few guns is looking to buy a new one, and his wife says "How many guns do you need?"
He says "How many pairs of shoes do you need?"
She never bothered him about it again.
Sorry Molly, Joe is taking up all
Of the stupid poster bandwidth in this post, you’ll have to scurry on to another one.
Better luck next time champ.
Here is a dirty little secret.
Street thugs and gangbangers use civil rights protections to enable their crimes and escape punishment.
They peaceably assemble and speak to plan and prepare robberies and drive-by shootings.
They peacefully bear arms to and from the scenes of robberies and drive-by shootings.
They use their freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures to conceal evidence of their robberies and drive-by shootings.
They use their rights to a fair trial and due process to avoid judgment for their robberies and drive-by shootings.
They use their right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment to avoid the punishment that they deserve for their robberies and drive-by shootings, even if they are judged guilty consistently with their other rights.
Now, if you give up your rights so that the cops can go after the street thug and the gangbanger, then....
...what makes you think that they will only go after the street thug and the gangbanger?
What makes you think that they will ever go after the street thug and the gangbanger?
None of our Constitution "gives rights"; you can't "give" something that people already have.
Our Constitution delegates limited powers to government; since nowhere in the Constitution or the BoR the power to limit gun ownership is delegated, the federal government lacks the power to limit gun ownership.
SCOTUS decided (rightly or wrongly) that these rules also apply to state governments.
People die in school shootings because of democrat policies carried out by incompetent, and incapable democrats. You drug and emasculate school boys and turn them into violent psychopaths. Guns are just a popular tool. YOU create the killers.
You have an ocean of blood on your hands.
You won't see a mass shooting on Stranger Things because anyone could have a gun, many did, and no asshole could have gotten that far.
My kid watches it and she's like "You could ride your bike around at night when you were a kid?" and I'm like "Yeah.. I could."
I assume you still ride your bike alone at night. How else would you get home from your job?
He doesn’t have a job, or a kid. It’s the beginning of the month, and we find that Sarc is usually in a booze filled stupor. Spinning all kinds of delusions. His welfare check will run out soon.
Let's correct that title...
Unfazed by The People's Law over them; Democrats want the POWER over the people to........................ (endless list)...
You GD Democrats want to conquer the USA for your Nazi-Regime; then get the people to support a Constitutional Amendment like you're LEGALLY required to do.... Otherwise; Your CRIMES aren't any better than any other P.O.S. criminal... The people are getting mighty sick and tired of your lack of respect for the USA and constant push to enact a Nazi-Regime here.
I cannot understand why there are so many shootings in the USA. Here in the UK we go out and enjoy peace and love in the outdoors.
https://www.doggingaction.co.uk/dogging-news/
"I cannot understand..."
Some unsolicited advice: When you start a comment with that phrase, you are broadcasting your personal failure to understand the topic.
Some more unsolicited advice: When you are a subject from a different country and not a citizen, your understanding of a topic is not required or pertinent.
I cannot understand why there are so many shootings in the USA. Here in the UK we go out and enjoy peace and love in the outdoors.
You know, except for the stabbings, and acid attacks, and bombings, and drive thrus with large vans….
I cannot understand why there are so many shootings in the USA. Here in Ukraine we go out and enjoy peace and love in the outdoors.
Or I mean we get hunted down by Russian invaders.............
There's a mountain of reasons to have armed citizens and ONLY ONE reason to disarm them (make them weaker).... The fastest way to stop an armed criminal is with a GUN!!! Can Democrats be any stupider???
What Democrats are really saying when they want to take away citizens guns is that; We don't trust ANYBODY (USA citizens) but a Nazi-Regime GOVERNMENT... And the stench of that belief rings true with far more subjects than just guns....
So democrats believe a 5 year old is capable of making a decision about their gender, but an 18 year old is not capable of handling a firearm.
Faith is reeal different from fact.
Seems to me that, if the Framers had wanted only the militia to be armed, the 2nd Amendment would have read:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"
Again, democrats always blame 'things' instead of people when it comes to guns. I've never seen or heard of an inanimate object acting on its own volition. If democrats believe inanimate objects can act alone then they are simply proving their insanity. But then this also goes to show how bent democrats are.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-9mm-guns-texas-uvalde-mass-shooting
Biden is also calling for banning 9mm hand guns.
9mm is .35 in US inch caliber, smaller than a .45 or even a .38 special.
I wonder how the police would react if you told them you were going to limit them to .30 side arms?
Actually, if you had enough money, you could.
Unfazed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, The Democrats Want To Ban The Current Constitution and Bill of Rights And Write a New "Woke" Constitution and Bill of Rights Giving The Federal Government Unlimited Powers and Keeping The Democrats In Power for Eternity.
Somehow that seems like a bad idea to me!
The same people who argue that we need gun control to protect us from the street thug and the gangbanger...have no desire to actually jail the street thug and the gangbanger.
Hochul added that "I don't want 18-year-olds to have guns,"
Well, we can safely assume she's a liar since there's no doubt that she really wanted to say "I don't want any civilian to have guns"
Perhaps a major defeat in the elections later this year, and in 2024 will cause them to realize the error or their ways. By the way, nothing above said or referenced absolves soft on constitutional rights and the recognition of fact problems of some Republicans.
Unfazed by 2nd Amendment, Libertarians forget the part about a "well regulated militia" that comes before (and qualifies) the right to bear arms which shall not be infringed.
No, the militia clause in no way "qualifies" the right to keep and bear arms.
Fazed by National and Soviet socialist altruism as justification for the initiation of deadly force by political States, Americans now understand only too well that it is better to have a Bill of Rights than wish you had one. You could ask anyone who was alive in Konigsberg in February 1945... except they were all dead by March. We have bailed Yourup out of two Monarch/Fuhrer wars already. Now it's no initiation of force or nukes at sunrise. Take your pick, gnosse.
The right to bear arms is a natural right; it isn't granted by the 2A. Therefore, even without the 2A, Americans would have a right to bear arms.
If you want the federal government to limit gun ownership, please point to where in the Constitution that power is delegated to the federal government. Good luck.
In a roundabout way Beto is right. The government ought to do something. But the only something that stops school shootings, or never starts them, is private schooling. When there are no exceptions, you are in the presence of a fact of reality that can be used as a true premise for further conclusions. Ask Beto supporters if privatizing schools then not taxing them out of existence is better or worse than collective government school shootings.
You forgot your random number.
Dizzle you twit, Biden counties produced 70% of our national GDP and Trump counties 30%.
Look it up.